Idea for Faux sand bed. Envirotex Lite high gloss finish.

[mattjk]

I went to the local plastics store today, and they have Pour-On high gloss epoxy. It's the stuff used to make thick glossy coverings on wooden plaques and so forth. Anyhow, talking to the guy there, he said it would stick well to glass and acrylic, and I could mix in a bunch of sand. After I poured the mixture in the bottom of the tank, smooth it out with a stick, I could then lightly sprinkle sand on top. Or, don't mix in any sand and just sprinkle the sand on top.

I bought a small kit, so I may try it on a small tank tonight.

Matt

http://www.eti-usa.com/consum/envtex/envlite.htm

[jasonross]

Thats sounds like it might be the next starboard.. keep us posted verry intresting if you get any photos or how it looks let me know.

[jasonross]

OH whats the price on that stuff?

[mattjk]

dude, your avatar is freaking me out!

the 4oz kit was $6.99. It covers 1sq feet.

1/2 gallon kit covers 16sq feet, and was around $14?

[jasonross]

thats pretty cheap well untill they find out reefers are using it..lol sorry about the avatar I have been looking for a new one but nothing I have found is even close...

[mattjk]

http://www.cs.buffalo.edu/~milun/mug.weird.gif

http://rw1.rworld.com/slay/choke.jpg

http://members.aol.com/superd46/weird.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/423426/fatdrivesmall.gif

[jasonross]

that last one is cool..

[scbauer]

Is that a recorded car accident (the last one)?

-Scott

P.S. - That stuff does look pretty cool... I remember seeing someone do that a while back. Can't find the thread, but he wanted to go bare-bottom so he either used concrete or epoxy and put sand on top. Formed it so it wasn't just flat, and it looked like a nice sand bed that never moved.

[mattjk]

WOW, this stuff is awesome!!! I'm am SO happy with the way it turned out. I will post pics later tonight.

I mixed sand into it, and poured in into a small tank, the stuff spread out by itself, very nicely. Then I sprinkled more sand on top until it soaked up all the mixture. Cool thing is, I put it on kinda thick, so the side of the sand bed shows up nicely!

Very cool stuff!

[Toutouche]

Jason,
I wouldn't change that avatar if I were you..., it's very neat!!!

Matt,
Anxious to see pics. Now, all you have to do is figure out how to get some other colors such as pinks, greens, browns and blacks down along the side between this stuff and the glass and you'll have an instant mature DSB showing!!!

[mattjk]

http://www.pbase.com/image/30551126/large.jpg

[mattjk]

http://www.pbase.com/image/30551121/large.jpg

[mattjk]

I had an idea... after the entire thing dries, you can go over it with another coat, that way the surface would be smooth, and les prone to catching detrius.

[Toutouche]

Please!!! Tell me that's JUST sand and none of that product!!! It looks perfect!!! Can't even tell it's there!! I hope you aren't going to get nay burrowing wrasses or such..., they're going to have LOTS of headaches!!

[mattjk]

Doesn't it look perfect? This stuff is amazing!

I have a pair of scooter Blennies... they are going to have to find a new way to sleep :lol:

Wow, I wonder how much I will need for a 48x15"

[cheeto]

Can you get a picutre with the tank upside down ? =)

[mattjk]

Originally posted by cheeto
Can you get a picutre with the tank upside down ? =)

I will tomorrow after it is fully cured.

[BlennyBabe]

This definately looks promising. It reminds me of the foam people were using to aquascape. I bet you could set some rocks in it to hold them secure or even spread it on the back wall and stick some shelves of live rock in it and then just let it dry. That would be really cool. Do you think it could yellow at all? I wonder how safe it would be to have in your tank, you know, maybe it leaches something out eventually.
Anyway, it looks amazing. post more pictures soon!

[Tremelle]

That does look nice. Is it saltwater safe? What kind of release of vapor or fumes did the product have?

[mattjk]

I was assured that it would not yellow, or leach out when completely cured.

[NicoleC]

I think you need to long-term test that stuff for reef compatibility. It may not leach anything into the air -- but salt water is a different environment entirely. I have no idea what to test FOR, though.

If it truly doesn't produce any by-products, that could be sweet for ya'll BB types.

[mattjk]

Well, the guy gave me an example of epoxy that is used for sealing powerheads, Same stuff... but who knows. I'm going setup my pico reef again after the faux bed cures fully. I guess I can do somekind of water tests on it. Maybe Randy in the chemistry forum can chime in.

[mattjk]

I sent the manufacturer an email.

Hi,

I'm interested in using Envirotex Lite in a Salt Water Aquarium. Would this be safe to use? Will it leach any harmful checmicals?

Thank you,
Matt

[Lostmind]

Pretty neat idea.

[OUinLA]

Your right, lots of stuff like this is used in equipment we already have submerged. I hope this is one of them. It's much nicer looking than another attempt i've seen of this on RC. Thanks for the info.

[clown2be]

Dude nice science project. It came out perfect.now long term test- you have to keep this thread updated at least monthly. I'm interested.

[gho]

Hey Matt,

Looks great. But what about algae growth on the bottom? I guess snails would eat it off?

[mattjk]

yeah, snails should have no problem eating algae, but the idea of going bare bottom is virtually no algae from having no phosphates leaching out of the sand bed.

[gho]

But wouln't phosphates leach from LR, its the same suff, no? Do phosphates leach from argonite?

[TangTied]

just tagging along...this I gotta see!

[gho]

Hey TangTied, you know you can subscribe to any thread by just clicking the "Subscribe to this Thread" button just below the "Reset Form" button for the Quick Reply box. Just thought you might want to know.

[mattjk]

Originally posted by gho
But wouln't phosphates leach from LR, its the same suff, no? Do phosphates leach from argonite?

Heck if I know! :lol:

[gho]

ah, not much of a BB proponent, eh?

[mattjk]

Originally posted by TangTied
just tagging along...this I gotta see!

:)

It's pretty much hardened fully now. It looks amazing, I wish you guys could see it in person. Pictures won't do it justice. Looking from the top, you would swear it was loose, dry sand.

[mattjk]

Originally posted by gho
ah, not much of a BB proponent, eh?

Bare Bottom? I hate the look. :)

[TangTied]

Hey TangTied, you know you can subscribe to any thread by just clicking the "Subscribe to this Thread" button just below the "Reset Form" button for the Quick Reply box. Just thought you might want to know.

Yea, but does that method give you credit for a post? (number of posts accrued) 'cause I need the numbers as you can see
I've never tried it before...something to experiment with I guess.
Thanks for the info though

[TangTied]

It's pretty much hardened fully now. It looks amazing, I wish you guys could see it in person. Pictures won't do it justice. Looking from the top, you would swear it was loose, dry sand.

You and I are only a few mile away...I'd like to see your setup whenever its finished if possible.

Whenever I ever get my mess straightened out, you might want to take a gander at my custom setup later this month.
90 gal mounted on a pony wall (room divider) with sump plumbed out to garage in a waterproof enclosure over garage sink.

As a matter of fact, I could certainly use some pointers/suggestions/critisms from local reefers if any of you are in the Garden Grove area. This is my first sump...always used canister before, so I am kinda wingin' it for now on my own.
:)

[mattjk]

Meet at TangTied's place!!! lol

It's a tiny little tank... less than 1 gallon. I can bring it by.

[tptp279]

so where's this plastic store? i wanna get some and try it in my qt tank and possibly my new seahorse tank. :)

[TangTied]

REEF HOUSE WARMING PARTY! PARTY! PARTY!
:celeb1: :celeb3: :celeb2: :jester:

you can all bring frags for the house warming gifts :D

[mattjk]

Originally posted by tptp279
so where's this plastic store? i wanna get some and try it in my qt tank and possibly my new seahorse tank. :)

The plastics store in Gardena. On 190th street.

[mattjk]

Bottom of the tank.

http://www.pbase.com/image/30557062/original.jpg

3/4 shot.

http://www.pbase.com/image/30557065/original.jpg

Side.

http://www.pbase.com/image/30557064/original.jpg

Closeup.

http://www.pbase.com/image/30557063/original.jpg

[tptp279]

that's not far at all, thanks, i'll look it up on yahoo maps.

[TangTied]

What you've done is basically the same as "walkway coating"

At Boeing we used it on both civilian and military aircraft on the wings as a non-slip surface to walk on.
The same method applied....brush/spray an epoxy coating on the surface and then sprinkle common sand on top of the epoxy before it dries. When cured, it makes a rough, durable, anti-slip surface to walk on when servicing the aircraft. Pretty cool stuff!

Of course, you simply added more sand to completely cover the epoxy and make it more asthetically pleasing for a reef tank.
not sure about the toxicity concerns though...only time will tell

[mattjk]

Originally posted by tptp279
that's not far at all, thanks, i'll look it up on yahoo maps.

You might want to call the company, I'm sure they have a dealer that is local to G.G..

[TangTied]

Hey, I'm in Garden Grove and a full-time student too

tptp279...What school are you attending and what are you majoring in???

[clown2be]

I have a 30 gal cube I have been trying to decide what to do with. this is looking good. I can't wait until you get the e-mail back from manf. to see what they have to say about being toxic for Salt Water Tanks. Really like this thread. What gave you this idea?

[tptp279]

well, i go to UCR during the school year but i'm in garden grove for the summer. Oh, and i'm a bio major who's probably not gonna make it and if he does will become a vet :)

[gho]

Originally posted by TangTied
Yea, but does that method give you credit for a post? (number of posts accrued) 'cause I need the numbers as you can see
I've never tried it before...something to experiment with I guess.
Thanks for the info though
Nope, no credit I guess. But hey, you'll have your 100 in no time!

[gho]

Hey Matt,

That looks really awsome! I'm awfully tempted.

[mattjk]

Originally posted by clown2be
I have a 30 gal cube I have been trying to decide what to do with. this is looking good. I can't wait until you get the e-mail back from manf. to see what they have to say about being toxic for Salt Water Tanks. Really like this thread. What gave you this idea?

This.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2806856#post2806856

and then someone made one out of starboard.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=372666&highlight=acrylic

but due to the bracing on my tank, there is no way I could fit a large piece of starboard in my 60 gallon.

[TangTied]

well, i go to UCR during the school year but i'm in garden grove for the summer. Oh, and i'm a bio major who's probably not gonna make it and if he does will become a vet

(Off subject, but well worth mentioning)

Paul,
If you've never taken advice from a complete stranger please do so now:
Pull it together NOW while you still can, otherwise you will end up having to go back to college at the age of 40 like me (pretty pathetic) I am finally starting graduate school in the fall to complete my MBA, but believe me...its only out of necessity, tenacity, and the well-being of my family; nothing to do with intelligence or luck.

If you don't complete college AND get your master's degree (not just a bachelor's), you'll regret it for the rest of your life...I SWEAR TO THAT...TRUST ME!

No one told me these things when I was your age and now I'm paying for it...literally. I wish I had a mentor at the time to light a fire under my a _ _ life would be so much easier!

Sorry about the rant. :( you'll see what I mean...someday
Good luck!
:cool:

[tptp279]

haha... yeah, i know, i just can't pick the major i really want. Bio major and becoming a vet is what i really want, but all those bio kids scare the daylights out of me with their 4.0's and what not, only reason why i'm afraid, but i know, i'm gonna be going to both UCR and RCC next year to gain enough credit to graduate early and go to graduate school, thanks though :)

[TangTied]

Word of caution:
plan your graduate study early (school choice/registration process), because everything is EXTREMELY competitive. not to scare you, just to warn you that you should plan early and get you applications in early
I have a 3.9 GPA and I still could not get into UCLA, USC, or UCI
Have to settle for Claremont or CSULB...haven't decided yet :(

I'd have to say that "community service" and other volunteer work is very important...as well as "references" when it comes to being accepted by a school of your choice.


mattjk: sorry to highjack your thread, man...all for the greater good! :)

[TangTied]

BTW:

It's a tiny little tank... less than 1 gallon. I can bring it by

I assumed that this is only a prototype and that your gonna do this to your main tank aren't you???

[mattjk]

yup, 60 gallon clear for life acrylic.

[trmiv]

How tough is it? What would happen with like 100 pound of LR stacked on it, only hitting in a few places?

[Reefer_BC]

Does this stuff actually paste itself to the bottom of the tank though? If it does, is there any way you can think of doing this without having it permanantly stuck to your bottom?

[AEALOVESHERGIRLS]

I would imagine if you put saran wrap on the bootom of the tank, and then poured it on top of the saran wrap, it would come out. However, you'd have to remember it would be one solid piece, so if you did want to take it out, it would be impossible to do so in one piece because of the brace on the top of the tank, as well as the ridges on the top of the tank. However, if you did it in sections, say 4 inches wide by 24", or however deep the tank is, I would think you would be able to slip the individual pieces out.

Good luck, it looks nice. I would just never do it myself because I place a lot of corals in my sand as well as clams. Also, I have a mandarin and I need the sand for the pods. But, I do think it looks very nice!


Amanda

[mattjk]

It's really tough. I don't think it would have any problem holding up rock.

[PaintGuru]

My only issue would be that once you put it down you can't take it out easily. I would probably do it on top of some piece of rigid plastic (starboard, thick acrylic, etc) so I could remove it if necessary. Looks much better then my PVC glue/sand method that I did.

[aquariumclown]

Maybe you can make these boards in pieces. That way you can take it out easily.

[Algae Blenny]

This is cool. Did you ever get an email back about whether it was safe or not?

[eums]

what about also using polyester resin (the FDA approved type) or epoxy vinyl ester (like "HETRON 922" its suggested for marine applications and Meets FDA regulation Title 21 CFR. 177.2420 (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=177.2420) )? or what about using the normal home depot resin thats used to layupfiberglass or the glassing resin thats used in surfboards.

soooooo many choices, i would like to use the hetron 992 made by ashton chem ( i think ) but i have no idea where to buy it. would probly have to order it and pay a hazmat shipping fee.

[chin_lee]

MattJK
Did you get any kind of reply from the manufacturers? Very interested in this setup.

[kbreese]

Yeah this is a great idea, now its just a matter of finding out the best resin to use.

eums, those sound like some great options.

[kbreese]

eums, you were close, but the company is actually "Ashland" and it looks like their general purpose 8425 resin is the one recommended for marine applications. The 922 has better corrosion resistance, but not positive it would be safe for aqaurium??

-Hetron® 922 Superior corrosion resistance to strong acids &
bases. Inherent toughness and high elongation. Vinyl Ester Class1,25 or less Orange

-Aropolâ„¢ 7334 Excellent corrosion resistance including solvent
resistance. IsophthalicPolyester Class 1, 25 or less Green

-General Purpose 8425 Good corrosion resistance. Good for marine, waste water, etc. applications. Polyester Class 1, 25 or less Yellow

[kbreese]

I think that Ashland stuff isn't really available to general consumer's unless you want to buy a 450g drum of it. I can't find it anywhere in consumer portions.

Here's another FDA approved resin, but it's like $25/gallon:

http://www.mertons.com/Epoxy/polyester_Resins/isophthalic.html

[kbreese]

I just went and bought this envirotex b/c it was the meast easily available. I bought the 32 oz kit which was $22.95 at "Micheals" craft store. Pretty darn expensive so I hope it covers the bottom of my new 29G. I am going to do it today. Hopefully it will come out good@!

Matt, did you ever do your bigger tank?

[Anthozoa]

Hey make sure to let us know how it goes, are you using it right on the bottom of the tank or on a starboard material? I'm going to order my starboard this weekend and I hope to go with the faux sand bed as well.

[kbreese]

Here are some pics shortly after I did it. It is going to need to dry like 3-4 days. After that i will dump off any excess sand. Or else i may just buy some more and pour another coat on top (just the shellac, no sand). That would also help smooth it out. There isn't as much excess sand though as you'd think as it feels pretty firm to the touch already.


http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v96/kbreese/Dsc00485.jpg

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v96/kbreese/Dsc00483.jpg

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v96/kbreese/Dsc00482.jpg

[Anthozoa]

Looking good so far, I'm thinking now of just putting it right into the tank and not using starboard.

Anybody know how much of the envirotex I should buy for a 120, 48 by 24''? And how do you go about mixing in the sand? Thanks

[mattjk]

kbreese, how's the tank doing?

I have my pico reef up and running. The faux bed looks fantastic.

[gho]

Pics Matt! We want pics!

[kbreese]

It should be fully cured now, its very hard and just looks like a sand bed pretty much so I am sure it will look nice when there is water in it. However, after all that I may not even be setting up the 29g b/c I think I am keeping the 75g (was originally getting rid og the 75)

[Dan6344]

why ould you want to put another coat over the sand? wouldnt that just cover it up an make it look fake?

[kbreese]

the only reason I considered that was to seal in all the sand preventing loose grains from coming off little by little. I decided it's not a big deal anyhow and to not do another coat. However, if I did put it on, it would have been a thin coat and you wouldn't really see it b/c its clear

[holeinone1972]

Isn't this all just going to be for not, when the corraline just covers it like glass and acrylic?

I like your idea, but it seems it will look good only very temporary.

Rob

[Bamm Bamm]

good point Rob.

I love the look and might try this one a spare 5.5g glass or maybe my Eclipse 6 nano. The main problem I always have is sand blowing everywhere. I guess I could just go BB if I set it up again.. Keep us posted after you guys have fish/corals in these setups for awhile//.

[mattjk]

Here's my Pico. With the water in there, you can't tell the sand is glued down.

http://www.pbase.com/image/31290788/original.jpg

[kbreese]

Originally posted by holeinone1972
Isn't this all just going to be for not, when the corraline just covers it like glass and acrylic?

I like your idea, but it seems it will look good only very temporary.

Rob

I posted the sand bed that I did (not taking credit for the idea for the record) in my local forum here on RC and someone said the same thing, but the main purpose really is to protect the bottom glass, same as starboard. Sure a lot of it will probably become covered in corraline eventually but in the meantime it looks great and by that time many people will also have a lot of rock and corals covering a lot of it too, so I don't think it will look funny or anything, and I am sure you will still be able to at least see parts of the sand.

When you compare cost vs starboard its pretty similar actually, so it just depends on what you prefer to do. For my 75g I went the starboard route (just orderdered some) b/c I wanted to have the option to just take out the starboard for weight reduction if I have to move the tank. Or if I sell it I can just take it right out for anyone who plans a real sand bed. Obviously the faux sandbed is permanent and probably best for smaller tanks or tanks you are sure you will never move or sell it etc....

[doody]

Just wondering how this experiment/project has been going

[shred5]

Yea did you ever hear back from the manufacturer?

Dave

[kbreese]

From what I know Matt was assured it wouldnt leach any chemicals back into the water.

After I did mine it sat and cured for about 9-10 days and just this past weekend I put in saltwater, LR and fish. and everything is doing fine and it looks great. I'd post a pic but my home computer isnt up and running yet.

[mikeo1210]

Hey this is awesome. How's it going?

[mikeo1210]

Have you gotten corraline growth on the top? Have you been able to remove it?

[Tremelle]

As I think about the product, it would be easy to make a removable "sand bed". All you would need to do is take the inside bottom dimensions of your tank. Divide the dimensions in half and make a mold out of cardboard. Fill the mold two seperate times to make 2 pieces. That would allow you to make the artificial sand bed removable and easily installed in two pieces.

[doody]

Do I see someone selling these in the future? Instant SB.

[onthefly]

As for the different types of resin..........polyester resin is lighter than epoxy, but is far more brittle.....example: surf boards use PE resin....much lighter, but after awhle they develope stress cracks. Niether will yellow, unless they are expose to "intense" UV (like a boat on the ocean) and then it is over time.

For this application, or the making of removable pieces, epoxy is the way to go!

[mattjk]

welp, my pico tank is doing extremely well. Absolutely no aglae problems like I experienced before with the sand bed... and I'm using a 7500K bulb.

[mattjk]

Originally posted by mikeo1210
Have you gotten corraline growth on the top? Have you been able to remove it?

I'm getting some really dark coralline in the faux bed... the snail is'nt making a dent on it, and I can't scrape it off. Looks better than a bare-bottom anyhow.

[Cody Ray]

One word, urchin, lol! Of course, you won't have ANY coralline algae, but then again, shouldn't your rock be covered with corals instead of algae?

onthefly so epoxy is the best way to secure the sand to the bottom? Any brands that you know for a fact that will be reef-safe? I want to try this on a 20 long that I have been thinking of setting up for kicks. The sand bed will be faux, the rock will be a ocean-based base rock, and filtration will be provided by a CPR hang-on refugium full of macro and sand. The aquarium is soley for corals.

[ol'salty]

Being a firefighter and having to deal with hazardous materials, ALL manufactured products from windex, to latex paint, to batteries ect. by law, have MSDS's, (material safety data sheet) that contains chemical information, reactivity and health/safety information. These are not given to the end user at time of purchase. They are however shipped to the retailer in the shipping container. When you purchase the product, ask the sales clerk if they have an MSDS on this item. Here, retailers are SUPPOSED to keep an MSDS on hand for ALL chemical compounds that they stock. If not, you may request an MSDS from the manufacturer, whom must supply that info BY LAW! MSDS are real handy and informative to have! I hope this helps you fine folks gather the info that you seek.

[kbreese]

just for the record my tank has been going a month now with this faux sandbed and no problems at all.....

[onthefly]

Epoxy is definitely the way to go if there is any possibility of flexing!!!!

Like ol' salty says, get an MSDS!!!! However, unless you have a degree in organic chemistry, don't freak when you see some of the components. All resins give of VOC's and other nasties as they cure, once cured, they should be good to go!

Although this is anecdotal, I know Scripps Aquarium in La Jolla has used "West Systems" Epoxy for their tanks inn the past. You can get it at any of the West Marine Products (not affiliated with west systems) stores or online.

[Cody Ray]

Good info there ol'salty, thanks for chiming in!

[reeftechie]

update, have you heard from them? please post.

Thanks,
Rt

[gqjeff]

I am watching this thread myself.... VERY VERY interesting..

[gqjeff]

Anybody have and idea how much I will need for a 240?

[gqjeff]

I am getting 64 ounces for my 240... 96*24" That cool anybody know?

[gqjeff]

ttt

[gqjeff]

any new updates or water quality problems? I have a gallon of this stuff and I am thinking of doing it this weekend. Anybody?

[Oddjob]

Any updates on the faux sand beds?

Everybody still doing well?

I'm considering using this method myself.

[gqjeff]

I would like to hear also.. I am planningon doing it this week.. Didn't have time this past weekend...

[deansreef]

tagging along

[bonerfortuna]

I have done something like this. I used regular aquarium safe silicone that I smeared over starboard and then put sand on it before it cured. I looks great , very natural , and is made of two tested safe known aquarium components. It holds up agst a garden hose test so I think it will be good with my Tunze. It hasnt been tested other than that yet as I am stiil assembling the tank. Can anyone think of any problems using this method. ill have some pics to post later. Peter

[Oddjob]

Peter:
I have no experience with any of these faux sand beds, but I don't see any problems with your method, as long as the silicone adheres well to the starboard.

[mattydub]

why silicone to starboard? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? I mean you should have just siliconed to the glass on the bottom of the tank.

[bonerfortuna]

The starboard serves as a buffer to protect the glass in case of a rockfall or inadvertant dropping of something while working in the tank. It also allows you to do the work away from the tank and it is removable if need be .Now Im considering methods to attach a few random pieces of dry rock to the back wall. Im thinking about using some acrylic right angle pieces to use as shelving. they will likely be siliconed to the back wall and small random dry pieces will be siliconed to the shelves. Its a lot easier to aquascape a dry tank,at least the basic ideas. Peter

[mattydub]

hmmm....not to discourage your ideas, but from all my reading on here, if you don't silicone the starboard to the sides of the glass then you're going to have nutrients trapped under the board. Also, silicone doesn't make a strong bond between glass and acrylic, so be careful with those shelves! Good luck though, sounds like it will be a neat tank...

[bonerfortuna]

I gonna attempt to post a photo of the starboard sandbed.http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/52275starboardsand.jpg

[bonerfortuna]

That makes sense Mattydub, I think Ill have to silicone in the tiny gaps at the edge. I know the shelves will be difficult,Im prepared to have an alternate plan for them.My plan is coming to fruition very slowly so Im not in any hurry to rush and make any errors. Thanks for your input.

[gqjeff]

I did the epoxy in a 10 gallon test tank last night.. I mixed the epoxy then poured it in the tank and then poured the sand on top. It looked good this morning but has allot of loose sand on the top. I then tried mixing the sand into the mixture and then pouring it on a piece of cardboard to see how that looks. That looked really good also and the sand is completly sealed down. I am going to go this route when I do my 240. I am just worried about doing such a large area. I am going to use acrylic to fill in the center of the 240 inside of the bracing so it is level. I am then going to silicon around the edge to keep anything from getting underneath. I would like to do this with the tank on the floor but I am worried if I add another 100-200lbs we will not be able to move the tank hahahah.... Oh yea I plan on leaning the tank back to give it an illusion of a deep sand bed.

Peace, jeff

[mattydub]

Originally posted by gqjeff
.... Oh yea I plan on leaning the tank back to give it an illusion of a deep sand bed.

Peace, jeff

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: WOaH there cowboy, how are you planning on "leaning the tank back"? I mean you do know that if you tilt the tank it will exponentially increase the amount of stress on the glass and cause wet floor syndrome right? I'm ***-u-me-ing that you mean you're going to use more epoxy in the back end than in the front...but you never know what people mean when they type;)

don't lean the tank, it HAS to be level.

Paz

[DerekW]

Paz, I took it as meaning he would lean the tank back when he put the epoxy in, not when it was filled with water

[mattydub]

derek, paz means peace in spanish, but I can see how that would be confusing....=)

GQjeff...sorry I read into that wrong...leaning it back to get a DSB look will be definitely cool, and then you'll automatically have a nice little 45-or-so degree angle to see clams better! Great idea...

[mattydub]

sorry if we've been hijacking this thread...really we're just BUMPING it until we get some updates on tank parameters! How bout some more photos? !!!

[Macimage]

Hi Matt,

I have the exact same pico reef. I've purchased the envirotex and would like to do the same thing.

Did you mix the mixture up in the tank and then pour the sand on it? Or did you put the sand in the tank and then seal it with the mixture that was mixed up in another container? Or did you put the mixture and the sand it and then mix everything?

Please let me know how you did it, as it came out great.

Thanks,
Joyce

[reeftechie]

gqjeff,

I know he did this yesterday. He is going to send me some pics, I will post them as soon as I get them. I am going to do the same thing in my 230. Mix the sand with the Epoxy, pour it in, let it cure then add another layer of epoxy so that way the sand wont blow around and you wont know the difference.

RT

[lovetoreef]

RT

did he (and do you) plan on placing a layer of cuttingboard/starboard on the bottom below the epoxy/sand layer to protect the glass, or do you feel that the epoxy layer will protect the glass from the pressure of the rock?

thanks.

[mattydub]

Originally posted by lovetoreef
RT

did he (and do you) plan on placing a layer of cuttingboard/starboard on the bottom below the epoxy/sand layer to protect the glass, or do you feel that the epoxy layer will protect the glass from the pressure of the rock?

thanks.

well I just finished doing this on a little 10g hex I got at a garage sale. It's okay looking...I mixed play sand in with the epoxy, then poured it in the tank. To be honest it looks a little like mud, but it seems to dry pretty well, the top layer is sand and it's held on pretty well. I'll do some water tests and then we'll see. No starboard, don't see the point. I'll post pics later...

[gqjeff]

I did it and I have some pics in my gallery.. Mine turned out perfect in my 240.. I had some friends over and they didn't even know it was solid until I had them touch it.. the key is to dry some sand and then put it in a strainer and sift the sand over the epoxy with sand in it.. If you don't it will have a milky appearane like the mud I think he is talking about.. This is from the dust in the sand mixing with the clear epoxy.. Click on my gallery if you want to see the finished result.. AWESOME in one word.

Peace, Jeff

[Macimage]

How many oz. or bottles did it take for your 240? How many inches deep is it??

Joyce

[DSparks]

I'm still a noob, so forgive my nooby noob-ness . . .

Isn't a live sand bed beneficial? From my < 1 year experience, I was under the impression that the live sand bed contained much of the tiny stuff that helps stabilize the tank. Someone straighten me out here :)

[gqjeff]

alot of debates about DSB's lately. I will run a DSB in my fuge so I can change it out every couple of yrs before it gets saturated with phosphates and leeches back into the tank. I used about 100 oz's of the stuff. I owuld say its a good 1/4-1/2" cause of the extra sand you will sift on top. Do a search about BB tanks. bare bottom.

Peace, Jeff

[awcurl]

I am also wanting to use this in my 250 but I am only in the planning stage at the moment so I have a few questions. Did you mix the sand in with the epoxy or pour the epoxy and then pour the sand over the top only or both? Does this spread out evenly or do you have to trowel it onto the bottom?

[gqjeff]

mixed a small amount with it so it did spread easily.. I did have to lift the tank to get it were I wanted it but no biggey. I then put dry sand into a strainer and sifted it over the sand a few times whenever I saw the epoxy coming threw.

Good luck, Jeff

[doody]

Hows this project going for everyone? I am planning on doing this to my 29g. I was wondering if anyone has tried to creat a backdrop with this stuff by pushing base rock into it, like the foam methode?
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38698

[RonSF]

Originally posted by doody
I was wondering if anyone has tried to creat a backdrop with this stuff by pushing base rock into it, like the foam methode? That's my plan for a new 170 I have on order. I am going to use high density polyurethane foam, sculpt it to have an inch or two of relief, cut out some areas to embed LR, then coat it with epoxy and sand. Before the epoxy cures, I will smash the LR into the mix.
Has anybody tried this with the Sweetwater brand epoxy sold at Aquatic EcoSystems (I may have missed this in an earlier post)?
-Ron

[doody]

I was thinking maybe you dont need the foam if the epoxy is thick enough, but I never used the epoxy.

[RonSF]

My thinking is that the foam allows you to create an irregular bottom shape in a more controlled way than just with the epoxy alone. Epoxy has a tendency to be self leveling.
First it was DSB vs. BB, then Envirotex vs. Sweetwater, now foam vs. no foam. When will it stoooooppppp . . . .
-Ron

[ricka]

mattjk,

How's the pico doing??

--Rick

[thesmith]

Any word as to whether corals (or clams) will attach to the 'faux sand'?

[CamBarr]

I dont see why they wouldent its a hard surface.

[CamBarr]

what epoxy are you guys using?
cam barr

[finding nemo]

Oh My, thats fabulous, I love it, it looks like you just poured a bag of sand in the tank. What kind of sand did you use to mix into it, I love the color of it. Please post a pic of it upside down, then I will be convinced its in there, lol, know what I mean? I want to do the same thing with my smaller tanks, its fabulous

[gqjeff]

You can see pics in my gallery of the faux bed.... Its awesoem Iluv it.. I have a ton of flow and no sand storm... 6-8K gph in my 240...

[finding nemo]

Wow GG, thats a beautiful tank, how deap is the bed. Is it made like this thread? Do you have a pic of a closeup of the bed? What did you make it out of?
Really great looking. And love the room its in to, the wall color is beautiful

[gqjeff]

TY very much... If you click my www link I have some newer pics... The bed is about 1/4 deep... It is made exactly like this thread.. The only thing I did different that worked really good for me was to dry some sand for a week before hand. What I did with this sand after it was dried was put it in a strainer and sift it over the mix of epoxy and sand until i could not see the clear epoxy seeping out any longer... It looks completly natural.. I have had some other reef keeping friends come by and they always ask how can I have so much flow with the sand.. I start to chuckle then comes the 15 minutes explination of what I did hahahah.. I absolutly love it and would never have another tank without it... If you click my gallery you can see some closeups of the bed before water was put into the tank... for my 240 I used about 60-80lbs southdown and 1.5 gallons of environlight tex... If you want to know anything else PM me and I will give you my cell number and I can maybe explian it better.. I am not a fast typer or a good typer for that matter..

Peace, jeff

[gqjeff]

Karen, you have a very nice site and setup also....

[ReeferAl]

CamBarr,
I see you've found another faux-sandbed thread (this 1). I like the looks of these results even better than the pvc glue method. If I were setting up another tank now I think it is what I would go with. Have you decided how to go about your 30 gal sps tank?
Allen

[finding nemo]

Hi Jeff, I am in the middle of moving from AZ to Tx and will be giving this a try on a 20l first when I get there. I love the look, ver clean, no junk showing and growing under the sand in the front of the tank. May contact you about it in the near future. Thanks a bunch. karen
Originally posted by gqjeff
TY very much... If you click my www link I have some newer pics... The bed is about 1/4 deep... It is made exactly like this thread.. The only thing I did different that worked really good for me was to dry some sand for a week before hand. What I did with this sand after it was dried was put it in a strainer and sift it over the mix of epoxy and sand until i could not see the clear epoxy seeping out any longer... It looks completly natural.. I have had some other reef keeping friends come by and they always ask how can I have so much flow with the sand.. I start to chuckle then comes the 15 minutes explination of what I did hahahah.. I absolutly love it and would never have another tank without it... If you click my gallery you can see some closeups of the bed before water was put into the tank... for my 240 I used about 60-80lbs southdown and 1.5 gallons of environlight tex... If you want to know anything else PM me and I will give you my cell number and I can maybe explian it better.. I am not a fast typer or a good typer for that matter..

Peace, jeff

[finding nemo]

Thanks so much, glad you enjoyed the visit.
Roses are my passion as are brains and xenia. But I guess I love all of the saltwater stuff. lol. Just cant have to many tanks.
Or can we???


Originally posted by gqjeff
Karen, you have a very nice site and setup also....

[Daniel62]

Hello Jeff,

What are your tanks Dia.?

Thanks

[ReeferAl]

Originally posted by RonSF
I am going to use high density polyurethane foam, sculpt it to have an inch or two of relief, cut out some areas to embed LR, then coat it with epoxy and sand. Before the epoxy cures, I will smash the LR into the mix.
It sounds like an interesting idea. I was thinking about it though and have a concern. The foam is basically alot of air. When it is coated with the epoxy/sand mix and the mix hardens the epoxy/sand will become a structural element. It will be holding up the rocks above and keeping the water pressure from compressing the foam with its trapped air bubbles. If the epoxy shell is not structurally up the the task it will crack and mess up the base. The foam alone would not be as vulnerable since a bit of compression from the water pressure would just deform it. It is not a rigid structure that would crack. Besides, has the foam been used under live rock or only on the sides or back?
My suggestion would be to stick some foam to a piece of plexiglass or something, coat it with the epoxy and sand mix and when cured submerge it in a bucket or tank filled with water, with a few rocks piled on top. If the coating doesn't crack under stress you may end up with a very nice result in your tank. If it cracks you may have to rethink the foam. Just a thought.
Allen

[RonSF]

Originally posted by ReeferAl
It sounds like an interesting idea. I was thinking about it though and have a concern. The foam is basically alot of air. When it is coated with the epoxy/sand mix and the mix hardens the epoxy/sand will become a structural element. It will be holding up the rocks above and keeping the water pressure from compressing the foam with its trapped air bubbles. If the epoxy shell is not structurally up the the task it will crack and mess up the base. Allen-
Your point would be valid if I were planning on using a fairly low density foam, like the Great Stuff in a can, but I'm going with a higher density material. I plan on using some urethane foam that I have left over as scrap. It is 14 lb. density (the bead foam that ice chests are made from is 1 lb. density, for comparison sake). The stuff is soft enough that you can dig your fingernail into it, but just barely. Once the resin goes on (probably 2 layers) it will be extremely tough, so I don't think it will be failing from weight issues. My only concern would be cracking from long term UV exposure, but I'm hoping that UV won't be an issue using marine epoxy.

My biggest concern at the moment is how I treat the edges. I'd rather not glue it in permanently into the tank and haven't decided if I want to taper it at the sides down to no thickness, or keep it 3/4" plus at the edges and try to pack loose sand between the foam/resin substrate and the glass sides. I know that it will look the nicest if I go with the latter plan, but don't want it to start looking green and yucky like a DSB on the edges and don't know if my closed loop will wash it all away regardless.

-Ron

[scot]

Any updates from poeple that have done this?

Is coralline growing on the sand?

Pictures?!

[CamBarr]

What about silicates does epoxy contain silicates?
also what epoxy have you guys used?
thanks,
cam barr

[gqjeff]

standard 240 96*24*24

environlite tex is the epoxy..

I am not having any problems with silicates at all from this...

Yes I have coralline starting to take off on the bed also.. If you click on my gallery and my www page you can see a few pics.. I need to take allot more pics and also some closeups...

Karen PM me anytime...

Peace, Jeff

[jmann]

I would really have a concern about using epoxy with MH lighting as epoxy does nor standup to UV for very long. I had a fiberglass repair co. in Fla. for 10 yrs and anytime we used epoxy on a boat if it was going to be exposed to the sun we painted it over and not with epoxy paint but with polyurethanes. Just a thought.

[Surfzup2k4]

Originally posted by jmann
I would really have a concern about using epoxy with MH lighting as epoxy does nor standup to UV for very long. I had a fiberglass repair co. in Fla. for 10 yrs and anytime we used epoxy on a boat if it was going to be exposed to the sun we painted it over and not with epoxy paint but with polyurethanes. Just a thought.

I would imagine that a MH lamp would not havenearly the same UV output as the sun. Most people use a piece of glass that filters UV light on their tank anyway. In an SE bulb, the outer shell is the UV filter, and on a DE setup, you have to add a filter.

[gqjeff]

also the sand is mixed with the epoxy so the epoxy gets no UV.. I went over the wet epoxy and put a layer of sand on top.. Then waited for it to dry and vacumed out the rest.. I do not think it will be a concern at all with this technique.. Also and said above SE is UV sheilded....

[pickle311]

this is very interesting, I'm thinking about doing this with my 120

[jthnhale]

Jeff:
Do you think the epoxy sand mix gives the same protection as the cutting board/starboard would? The epoxy seems like it would be a hard surface which would transmit the fall of a rock to the glass and the starboard seems like it would have more give.
Is this a concern, have you dropped a rock on it yet?
thanks,
Jonathan

[twokayaks]

Just bought some pour-on high gloss epoxy coating from Home Depot. The stuff is called Famowood Glaze Coat. I'll try the faux sand bed this weekend. Let you guys know how this turns out. Anyone out there have any bad experiences with this product? Let me know before I mess this starboard up.

Great thread GQJeff. Thanks for starting this up.

[twokayaks]

The stuff the I purchased from Home Depot worked great! followed the same procedure that GQJeff did, mix in the sand with the epoxy, pour on to the starboard, sprinkle more sand when epoxy begins to show through sand. Looks great. Thanks GQJeff for starting this thread.

[CamBarr]

post more pics

[gqjeff]

twokayaks, I didn;t start the thread but I did do this and I am happy as can be.. Did you check though and see if they epoxy was silicate free and also able to withstand saltwater? I just used this epoxy because the guy who started this thread checked into it before hand.. That would be my only concern using a different type or brand of epoxy.. Glad it has worked for you though.. Like I said I would never go DSB again I have a ton of flow and no more ruining my pump sills...


Peace, jeff

[13fishfan]

bump

[Kregg]

You guys are killing me. I have my new Starboard BB 120 ready to add water, when I started reading this thread. The epoxy/sand combo looks sweeet! I wish I knew all would be well in a year or two?

I was thinking about removing my Starboard and coating them with the epoxy/sand combo and having them be removable still. Any thoughts? Perhaps it will not stick to the starboard? It would not look as perfect as your but????? I wish your epoxy systems were a few years old....

Here is my system ready for the next step.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/77182Frame6.jpg

[jthnhale]

kregg: I was thinking of this also, but if something was going to go wrong with these systems it should have happened already. If there was something toxic given off by the epoxy then it would have affected the fish or coral by now. As far as this stuff lasting, it seems to last forever. I don't think even sitting in water 24/7 will change this material.
Also it is being mixed with sand, so that should give it some protection from the sun/lights. I'm going try this, my only questions are do I go ahead and place it on the floor of the tank directly, or do you place it on something that's removable like you said. Also what color sand? I'm thinking black would be cool, but that's a whole other topic.

[doody]

Whats the brand of the stuff at Home depot

[pickle311]

gqjeff, how many gallons of epoxy and how much sand did it take to cover the bottom of your 240?
I think I'm going this route on my 120 and I figured I could go with half of what you used or maybe a little more just to make sure I have enough.
Thanks

[twokayaks]

The brand at Home Depot is Famowood High Gloss Epoxy. Their website is www.famowood.com. The package comes in a 32 oz application. The 32 oz worked fine for my 75 gal tank.

[Kregg]

Following the link. I assume that the Fomowood product used is the "Glaze Coat"? Please verify.

[MarkM3]

FYI: Took two 16 oz kits (32oz) and a big bag of sand to cover the bottom of my 100 gallon with about 1/4-1/2 inch.

[gqjeff]

I used roughly 1.3-1.5 gallons of environlight tex epoxy and about 50-60 lbs for the mix. I then used prob another 20 or so lbs to top off with the strainer. I then let it dry a few days and vacumed all the left over loose sand out... I then ran my system with frashwater for a couple days then drained and starting adding my RO/DI.

Peace, jeff

[twokayaks]

It's the glaze coat product from famowood.

[Detritivore]

i thought i read about someone putting another layer of epoxy after the first...did you guys just sifted the sand on, so the texture of the faux bed was sandy?

[twokayaks]

Jonah: I followed the procedure that gqfeff did. mix some sand into the epoxy, pour it on the starboard, wait for the epoxy to work its way to the top, then sprinkle more sand on top, wait for epoxy to seep back up, sprinkle more sand on top...

I've had my tank running with the starboard and faux sandbed for 4 days now and my skimmer isn't producing anything. I also added 80 lbs of partially cured live rock at the same time of the starboard. I waited the recommended 72 hours for the epoxy to cure before adding it and the rock to my tank. Skimmer worked fine prior to the starboard. Now it's not doing anything. Have any of you had skimmer problems after adding the starboard and faux sandbed?

[gqjeff]

I would give it a couple weeks to take off.. I run my skimmer wet now and I pull a ton of gunk from the water...

[twokayaks]

I figured I'd just have to wait it out. Just wanted to hear it from someone else. I've read threads about the importance of a skimmer when curing rock. Wondering what having no skimmer will do to my cycling time for the rock. Wife will just have to wait an added week or so for the fish. Thanks for the reassurance.

[ravenmore]

hmmm - this is cool. You could also do something similar on the sides and back of the tank and mix in pieces of live rock to give you a cool looking background that you'd never have to clean. You could even have small ledges sticking out to mount frags on.

[gqjeff]

Twokayaks.. I would look into cooking yur LR first.. Will make the process much easier form the start.. Do a search for cooking LR if you are going to have to cure it...

Ravenmore, the stuff is not very thick so I do not think this product would work at all for that.. I did see another thread in the past couple days talking about what you are saying though...

[Bikelock]

Just wanted to say thanks to you guys, especially mattjk, gqjeff.

I did the faux sand bed in my nano and it is amzing. It was easy, fairly cheap, and looks like it will be effective. It is in a 10gal that is now heavily modified. I'll post pics soon.

[gqjeff]

Bikelock, glad it worked out for you.. Would love to see pics of your nano.. I am thinking of setting one up here in my office...

Peace, jeff

[Juppy_Juppy]

Has any one tried white sand for this? The only one we get in uthe uk is sugar fine.....Would this have the same effect as yours or would it be too milky/cloudy do you think?

[Juppy_Juppy]

Also gqjeff, Did you put yours straight on the glass? Looks like 2 pieces on a couple of the photos a crack in the middle. Have prob said already sorry
Juppy

[gqjeff]

Juppy, I used southdown.. that is a pretty fine sand tannish white.. I used acrylic over the glass because of the bracing on the bottom of the tank. I would not use acrylic again if I could not do it in one pc. I left the light on my tank without water in it when I set it up.. The heat from the 400 waters made the acrylic warp.. I do not think it would be a problem if you had water in it.. The heat inside the tank was about 150 degrees wihtout water... I drained out the fresh water I was running through the system to make sure it was clean.. I forgot I had the timers on and left for about 8 hrs.. This is when the warpping happened... It is exaclty were the 2 pcs of acylic meet. If I did it again I would prob use glass or glue the acrylic down to the glass. Everything else is awesome about it... Highly recoomend it.. You can have tons of flow without the sandstorms and it looks natural.. Mine now looks like it had a tsunami. I will have LPS on the entire bottom over time so thats why it doesn't bother me.. You will not see it in the future... You can see the warping in this pic... I do think also though if I could have made it in one pc it would not have happened either.. i had euro bracing so I had to cut the acrylic sheet in 2 pcs to fit it in.. If you could do it in one pc I would use acrylic without hesitation... Hope this helps you and anybody else out..

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/gqjeff/jeffs%20reef/fulltank1-9-1.jpg">

Peace, Jeff

[Juppy_Juppy]

cheers for the reply Jeff, Still looks sweet anyway. I want to take this route but not sure about putting it straight on the glass or not. Have been watching your progress in the z forum by the way and must say, VERY Impressed! Am currently trying to up my lighting, flow and sort bb or faux to start zoe so hopefully one day will enjoy similar results to you guys.

Regards
Juppy

[twokayaks]

GQJeff: Good idea about cooking the rock. This will give me time to work on the canopy. Thanks for the help.

[Bikelock]

I put mine down directly on the glass and it looks great. The only problem I had was mixing in to much sand at first so it was difficult yo spread. I then mixed up more much thinner and dumped it in the places the first batch was missing. It actually gives the appearance of ripples in the sand like on a tidle flat.

[ravenmore]

Has anyone come up with a good place to buy from? I'm having a little bit of trouble locating it....

[Bikelock]

Michaels craft store

[ishmael]

Doesn't the epoxy eventually get covered with coralline (if you are skilled)? And therefore, wouldn't it eventually look totally UNnatural? The very nature of sand dictates that coralline never grows on it? So you have gone to this extra step only to then have to SCRAPE the floor bottom? My point is that this new BB technique should end up with coralline on it anyway so it only looks like sand until then.....

[gqjeff]

Not really.. If you run low ALK coralline really doesn't grow near as fast.. I use zeovit so I run my alk 7.5-8.. I noticed if I take it over 9 or so coralline takes off again... All my water params are at natural seawater levels... I don't dose strontium though and that seems to play a role in coralline aswell... If you run higher ALK though yes coralline will start to cover the bottom. You can simply brush it off with a very strong bristled brush or get and urchint.

[Bikelock]

wow... I guess you have not read the bb threads

[LittleBlueGT]

I agree with the low alk. I run mine at NSW levels. My corals are growing great, coloring up nicely, but coraline is growing very slow. Almost no coraline on the glass, a little on the starboard. I htink elevated alk levels are not the best. Nature knows best.;)

[ishmael]

I see....
Why is low alk not promoted more?

[gqjeff]

Originally posted by Bikelock
wow... I guess you have not read the bb threads

Bikelock you talking to me? If so what do you mean?

ishmael, low ALK is being promoted a lot these days... Especially if you are running zeovit...

[Saldarya]

Any suggestions on other types/sand to use considering Southdown has become difficult to find as of late? Thanks in advance.

[Bikelock]

No jeff; Iishmael

[Bikelock]

Sorry for the double post.

That Ishmael would post about the bottom getting covered in a BB. Following al the threads on this shows that it is not that bad.

[gqjeff]

Originally posted by Saldarya
Any suggestions on other types/sand to use considering Southdown has become difficult to find as of late? Thanks in advance. I would say any white sand that is reef safe would be ok.. I choose SD because it was cheap.. To bad you are far away I have 5 bags left...

[Saldarya]

Sounds like a road trip to Il. is in order!! But seriously, Ill just pick up some Aragonite and use that. Secondly, can you provide some sort of idea of the proportion of epoxy to sand during the initial mixing. I am assuming you mixed the two parts together very well to start, then added sand and mixed it up, then poured it on. That being said, how much sand to epoxy. Thanks in advance.

Robert

[spamin76]

Hey ggjeff, you know a large chain or a way to mail order that epoxy? They have a website?

[hdtvguy]

http://www.eti-usa.com/consum/envtex/envlite.htm

[RonSF]

Originally posted by spamin76
Hey ggjeff, you know a large chain or a way to mail order that epoxy? They have a website? Unfortunately, gqjeff was booted from RC, so we no longer have him as a faux sandbed resource. I have no idea what sin he committed for full on excommunication.

Here's a link to the stuff that I am going to use if I ever get my tank ( shipped 3 times, damaged 3 times). I'll be mixing it with sand and applying it to sculpted high density urethane foamboard.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11733/cid/3035

[Bikelock]

Go to Michael's they have it there.

[shred5]

Originally posted by ishmael
I see....
Why is low alk not promoted more?

It is starting to be.. One of the reasons salts are comming with lower alk levels... I think it is a big movement in europe right now toward more natural alk levels...

Dave

[dochoot]

Great thread. I am going to try it on a 10 gall. I am concerned about algea growing though.

Do you guys think that it will also help protect the bottom and adding starboard would be redundant?

Will all of this extra weight make the tank unsafe to move when "empty"

Thanks

[sellout007]

Um i think it would definetly be redundant to put starboard unernath it all, and just goofy to put it on top.

[hdtvguy]

Originally posted by dochoot
Great thread. I am going to try it on a 10 gall. I am concerned about algea growing though.

Do you guys think that it will also help protect the bottom and adding starboard would be redundant?

Will all of this extra weight make the tank unsafe to move when "empty"

Thanks

No need for the starboard under the sand!

[dochoot]

Thanks, that was what I was thinking

[Reefer007]

Just a thought... I know that it would eventualy brush off some of the sand but wouldn't a dawn scruber that you can get from your local grocery store take care of the coraline? I read on Melv's thread that he was sure impressed by it.


Just a thought.....

[mylittleocean]

careful using cleaning sponges. Some have anti bacteria chemicals in it.

[holeinone1972]

Originally posted by mylittleocean
careful using cleaning sponges. Some have anti bacteria chemicals in it.

I think he meant the power scrubber, the little battery powered gizmo with spinning head.

http://a1468.g.akamai.net/f/1468/580/1d/pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/86047/200.jpg

[dkh0331]

I thought I remeber reading on another thread a while back about using pvc glue. Did I imagine that or does anyone else remember reading that?

David

BTW, removing DSB in the near future.

[Reefer007]

Ya... The Power Scrubber is what I was talking about...

[Jorsan]

Reefer007, how could we reach the bottom of the tank with that small device?

[docjay]

Ok I got all the stuff i need to do this but how much sand do you mix with the epoxy? What proportions? Do you want it pourable or do you have to scoop it out and apply it? I've got a little over a gallon of the epoxy to do a 60" X 38" bottom (less a couple of aragacrete islands) Looks like I'm going to have to spread it real thin.

Thanks,
Jay

[Reefer007]

The Dawn Scruber is a battery opperated brush that is totaly submersable. From what I have been told by other people they use it to remove coraline algie with it even on acrylic aquariums.

[dochoot]

docjay,
I am doing mine right now. This is just a test in a 10 gall. I made it so it is very pourable and dumped it in. I am adding lots of sand now to the top. The resin keeps absorbing the sand I am adding and I just add more to the wet spots. Very easy. Respect the cautions of breathing the stuff and wear gloves.

[UnderwaterExotic]

I might of missed it, but when you do one of these sandbeds, it dosent leech into the water, and its reefsafe?

[Reefer007]

No the poly epoxy is designed so that after it is fully curred it dosen't release anything. The food industry uses this kind of product all the time.

[UnderwaterExotic]

Ok thanks for the info!!!

[hdtvguy]

Well all I can say let this be a warning to anyone thinking of doing this.


I did this on my 240g a few days ago let the epoxy and sand mix dry the required time 4 days. I vacuumed all the left over sand out of the tank.

I filled the tank with around 80 gallons of tap water to get the dust out.

I started to hear loud cracks coming from the tank for over an hour. I thought it was just the epoxy from the cold tap water.

Well about an hour later I look over the tank and see water leaking off the stand.


Well the whole bottom glass cracked from the epoxy sand mix:mad2:

I think if you are going to do this use something on the bottom of the glass so the epoxy does not crack and take the glass with it.


So I now have a 240g tank that is garbage:rolleyes:

I was able to get the water out quick with a big 6.5Hp 18g Shop Vac so I had no water damage to my floor in my living room.

I hope my home insurance will cover the tank. I did have insurance on it.

Let this be a warning to anyone thinking of doing this. I posted this so hopefully no one else has this happened.

[docjay]

Holy Crap!
Too late for me. I just finished mine. It has to cure for three days. Mine is also a 240 gal tank.
I plan on filling it thursday. How thick was your glass?

Jay

[docjay]

I would guess that the epoxy contracted from the cold water. Since it was bonded to the glass, it cracked.
When I fill mine I'll try using room temperature water. Maybe that will help (I hope).

Jay

[hdtvguy]

It was 1/2" glass

[docjay]

Really sorry to hear about your loss. Now I've got something to worry about until thursday. My tank is 3/4" so hopefully it won't crack. Was your tank flat on a stand with foam under it or was it a tank with trim on the bottom? Was this the first time you filled it? I'm just grasping at straws here, trying to see my situation as different from yours. I've been working on this tank since May. I'd hate to think all that work and $ could be for nothing.
Time will tell.

Thanks for the warning.

Jay

[Brad524]

I am thinking of doing this to a 70 gl. let me know how those turn out
I would hate to crack my tank

so if there's something underneath would it be ok?

[hdtvguy]

Originally posted by docjay
Really sorry to hear about your loss. Now I've got something to worry about until thursday. My tank is 3/4" so hopefully it won't crack. Was your tank flat on a stand with foam under it or was it a tank with trim on the bottom? Was this the first time you filled it? I'm just grasping at straws here, trying to see my situation as different from yours. I've been working on this tank since May. I'd hate to think all that work and $ could be for nothing.
Time will tell.

Thanks for the warning.

Jay

The tank has been setup for a year before doing this. It is a all glass tank with foam under the stand.

I'm not sure what really causes it to crack? Maybe the cold water with the epoxy? I don't know? I do have a center overflow and had 2 1 1/2" bulkheads with 2 1" returns. Maybe it was to many holes in such a small space on the bottom? Could have been enough to weaken the glass, then the epoxy reaction.

I will never know what causes the problem just guessing.

I hope yours works out.

[RonSF]

Epoxy creates heat when it cures. The more volume of epoxy curing, the more heat. If you mix a gallon in a bucket and never spread it out it can get hot enough to burn you. It is possible that the epoxy was thick enough that it created enough heat to pre-stress the bottom of your tank. The cracking sounds may have been stress related as you filled the tank from a pre-existing crack in the bottom of the tank created before the tank was filled.

I'm still going to go with this route on my new 170, but my plan is to pour the epoxy over a thin sculpted layer of high density urethane foam. I'm hoping that the foam and the fact that I have a tempered bottom will let me sleep at night before I get mine filled the first time. Mine has been shipped three times and arrived three times with damaged eurobracing, so I must fess up to a little apprehension.

I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune, hdtvguy, but appreciate the warning.

[RonSF]

Sorry, d-double post.

[musicsmaker]

Originally posted by hdtvguy
So I now have a 240g tank that is garbage Could be used as a reptile tank. Just a thought.

Originally posted by hdtvguy
It is a all glass tank with foam under the stand. Two questions:

1 ~ Do you mean a piece of foam between the tank and stand?

2 ~ Does the tank have molding around the top and bottom?

[hdtvguy]

Originally posted by musicsmaker
Could be used as a reptile tank. Just a thought.

Two questions:

1 ~ Do you mean a piece of foam between the tank and stand?

2 ~ Does the tank have molding around the top and bottom?

Yes I had a 1" foam on the top of the stand that the glass bottom rested on.

No moldings it was a all glass tank.

[ravenmore]

man that sux - sorry to hear that dude.

[ravenmore]

man that sux - sorry to hear that dude.

[musicsmaker]

PS ~ I too think that sux.

[spamin76]

Wow - how much epoxy did you use?? How deep of a sandbad did you make?

[Thales]

Arg! Thats horrible.

I think I am going to cast mine in three sections.

[Carl_in_Florida]

hdtvguy - I just saw your sig... 300 WOOHOO!

[hdtvguy]

Originally posted by spamin76
Wow - how much epoxy did you use?? How deep of a sandbad did you make?


I used 1 1/2 gallons epoxy. I would say the sand was under 1/4"


New tank will have 3/4" low Iron glass (Opti- white)

[shred5]

Originally posted by hdtvguy
Well all I can say let this be a warning to anyone thinking of doing this.


I did this on my 240g a few days ago let the epoxy and sand mix dry the required time 4 days. I vacuumed all the left over sand out of the tank.

I filled the tank with around 80 gallons of tap water to get the dust out.

I started to hear loud cracks coming from the tank for over an hour. I thought it was just the epoxy from the cold tap water.

Well about an hour later I look over the tank and see water leaking off the stand.


Well the whole bottom glass cracked from the epoxy sand mix:mad2:

I think if you are going to do this use something on the bottom of the glass so the epoxy does not crack and take the glass with it.


So I now have a 240g tank that is garbage:rolleyes:

I was able to get the water out quick with a big 6.5Hp 18g Shop Vac so I had no water damage to my floor in my living room.

I hope my home insurance will cover the tank. I did have insurance on it.

Let this be a warning to anyone thinking of doing this. I posted this so hopefully no one else has this happened.

WOW Sorry to hear that.. You can get a new peice of glass cut and installed on the bottom... Might be more work than what it is worth though...

Dave

[hdtvguy]

Originally posted by shred5
WOW Sorry to hear that.. You can get a new peice of glass cut and installed on the bottom... Might be more work than what it is worth though...

Dave


Thanks,

I don't think it would be worth the time. That epoxy sand mix is rock solid. Getting it off the sides, front back etc. It would be to time consuming.

[shred5]

Originally posted by hdtvguy
Thanks,

I don't think it would be worth the time. That epoxy sand mix is rock solid. Getting it off the sides, front back etc. It would be to time consuming.

Didnt think about that.. What do you think caused it... do you thing the epoxy could not handle the weight and cracked taking the glass with it... Glass can bow a little, maybe the epoxy can not....

Dave

[RonSF]

Originally posted by shred5
Didnt think about that.. What do you think caused it... do you thing the epoxy could not handle the weight and cracked taking the glass with it... Glass can bow a little, maybe the epoxy can not.... It is definately not the brittleness of the epoxy that caused it. Epoxy is extremely flexible and it never snaps like polyester resin can. My bet is still on heat induced stress from the curing process if indeed it was caused by the faux sandbed itself.

Rich-
If it was caused by heat, you might actually be making matters worse by heating one portion of the glass independently of another. I would think that the solution would be to do it in thinner layers so that the heat would be more dissipated, but evenly distributed across the surface of the glass.

[Brad524]

Originally posted by hdtvguy
Thanks,

I don't think it would be worth the time. That epoxy sand mix is rock solid. Getting it off the sides, front back etc. It would be to time consuming.

unless you sanded the edges it may be easier than you think .
the epoxy may bond with smooth glass but it doesn't do it very well. I wouldn't be suprised if huge pieces came off easily

the silicone would come off with it though
so maybe your right

maybe Randy could illaborate on the cause of this ( crack )

[spamin76]

I would think that tempered glass would be pretty resillient to the heat change caused by the epoxy... Is it possible that the tank already had a defect or something?

[Brad524]

so how about any others that tried this
are they still good to go

[RonSF]

Originally posted by spamin76
I would think that tempered glass would be pretty resillient to the heat change caused by the epoxy... Is it possible that the tank already had a defect or something? I missed it if he said the bottom was tempered glass. If so, then I agree that the heat would have been an unlikely cause for the failure. I know, though, that with my custom 6'x2'x2' eurobraced glass tank a tempered bottom was an upgrade. I upgraded to a tempered bottom because of the added strength and the fact that I have a lot of holes for a closed loop.

Keep in mind, folks, that epoxy is what the most durable surfboards are coated with. Polyester skinned surfboards are more common, but the really bulletproof boards are skinned with a reasonably thin membrane of epoxy over urethane foam and take a serious beating before they crack. A surfboard can go from the hot sun on top of a car rack to the brisk water of Northern California without any fear of cracking.

[Thales]

Originally posted by RonSF

Rich-
If it was caused by heat, you might actually be making matters worse by heating one portion of the glass independently of another. I would think that the solution would be to do it in thinner layers so that the heat would be more dissipated, but evenly distributed across the surface of the glass. [/B]

Yep - I meant cast three sections outside of the tank. Sorry I was clear!
The thought of the epoxy heating the silicone joints makes me uneasy.

[RonSF]

Originally posted by Lefty
Sorry I was clear!
LOL
Sounds like a good plan, though. I'd think that a final layer of epoxy and sand over the joints, once the three pieces are in place, would make for a safe and attractive gameplan. The part that I can't decide is whether I'm concerned enough about trapping ugly and harmful detritus between the FSB and the glass to cast in place instead of making it a drop in bottom. The cast in place method is bound to look better and be less maintenence, but it is a pretty big commitment in a new $2k tank! Ah, the quandries of being at the bleeding edge of progress.

[Thales]

:D
I think the risk of trapping detritus is less with pre cast FSB sections, that it is with Starboard - the Starboard bends while the epoxy won't. Also, I just cant see it trapping any significant amount of detritus.
I am also concerned about weight of a cast in place FSB in regards to moving the tank!

Now...on to the bleeding edge of circulation!

[MarkM3]

I've tried the epoxy method in a 100 gallon tempered bottom, and a 40 untempered bottom- heat from curing was never an issue. . . but weight was (added about 30-50 pounds to my already 120-160 pound tank!)

[hdtvguy]

My tanks bottom was not tempered. I really think it was from the very cold tap water that I put in the tank. Winters get very cold here and the cold water supply makes the water even colder.


The thing is I heard cracking all over the tank. I could see the cracking of the epoxy pulling away from the tanks edges.



The thing is it only cracked on the right side of the tank. Was this the weak spot of the glass? I would have to say yes because glass will crack in the weakest spot and then spread.


I posted this in hopes that nobody else has to go through what I did and loose a tank of this size.

[docjay]

I'm still waiting a few more days for mine to cure. Although hdtvguy's experience has made me nervous, I'm optimistic that my tank will be fine. I'm planning to fill it this weekend. I'll report back on what happens either way.

Jay

[pickle311]

I'm still planning to go this route on my 120. It's 1/2" acrylic all the way around, do you think I'll have any problems applying the epoxy directly to the bottom, or should I use some 1/4" acrylic on the bottom?

[hdtvguy]

Originally posted by pickle311
I'm still planning to go this route on my 120. It's 1/2" acrylic all the way around, do you think I'll have any problems applying the epoxy directly to the bottom, or should I use some 1/4" acrylic on the bottom?

Sorry I have no experience with acrylic.