Ats

[Flatlander]

Eric, When you experimented with an ATS, was it a mixed reef containing sps or a lagoon type system?

I know you wrote an artilce on the subject. Could you tell me where I could read it?

As I have sold/traded away most of my soft corals and my tank is now comprised mainly of a variety of sps frags and three large clams, [ I still have large star & yellow polyp colonies, covering much of the glass], and my ATS will soon be the only filtration on the tank,[ besides my sandbed & limited rock of course], I was interested in your opinions.

Thanks

[EricHugo]

The article was in TFH, March 2000 issue.

The tank was both of what you describe - a mixed reef containing sps in a lagoon type setting. Yes, sps are found in lagoons. ;)

Let me know if you have more questions on it....

[Mark]

Hey Doug,

I just jumped on the ATS bandwagon as well. Mine is currently on a 38 lagoonish tank, at least that's what I call it. Good to see others using them as well. I scanned Eric's article into my computer for safe keeping. I'd be happy to share it with you if you can't track down an old issue of TFH, that is of course if Eric is ok with it. :)

One thing I noticed after installing it, is that the surge from the dump bucket is not nearly enough flow. I added 2 powerheads(maxijet 900's) for additional circulation. While I know there hasn't been any conclusive data, how bad do you guys think these pumps really are for the microorganisms in the tank? Just looking for an opinion here. I don't want to stray from Adey's advice too much, but then I think I already am by powering the ATS itself with a powerhead.

[Flatlander]

Thanks Eric. Hey Mark, nice to hear that, we will be able to compare notes. I will also be using extra pumps, and I dont think they do much harm by looking at the life in my current tank with multiple pumps, but then there is lots I cant see.

I do have the large model ATS, so the dump should be decent, but its going on my 170.

I have never seen TFH for sale around here.

[Mark]

Hey Doug,

Couple of questions. Are you planning on phasing out the skimmer slowly or immediately? Also, did you get a seeded screen? I would've liked to have phased the skimmer out slowly as the turf community developed, but I couldn't fit both on the tank. So now, the tank is essentially running on autopilot till the algae develops on the screen. I contacted Inland for a seeded screen, but no word yet.

Btw, this tank is in pretty bad shape. It was under my GF's care, and the Asparagopsis taxiformis is covering everything(I hate this algae). It'll be interesting to see whether the turf community will outcompete this and other nuissance alga in the main tank. So the ATS will be put to the test on my eutrophicating lagoon.;)

[Flatlander]

I plan on running the skimmer in the sump for awile. The ATS will sit on top of the tank, and when fully operational, the sump will cease to exist, :D

I have talked to Morgan about a screen and shipping it to Canada. He said this could be done.

I have only some bubble algae, so not to much for mine to out compete. I read the articles by the university in Minnesota, that runs one and how it cleared up a case of slime algae.

[EricHugo]

Ideally, you'd want to minimize tramautic pumping to keep with the Dynamic Aquaria paradigm, but traumatic pumps are a given with today's scrubbers - and you would weigh the pluses and minuses of lower flow versus added impellers. If I hadn't seen even lower flow dumps at Inland many times, I'd say more flow would be imperative, but they have things growing like crazy in tanks with dumps happening every 30 seconds or so and no other pumps. Try it both ways and see what happens. The hardest part for me was getting the screen to mature and get those climax turfs up and kicking..then it was a piece of cake, and amphipod-in-the-screen problems were dramatically less. I think you'll like what you see.

[Mark]

Now if only someone could come out with a cheaper, injection molded version.:D

[LiquidShaneo]

Here's what I was initially thinking of doing for an inexpensive ATS unit. I kind of combined the Borneman Surge with a slanted turf screen:

http://liquidreef2.freeservers.com/temp/ATS-Borneman_Surge_Concept.jpg


http://liquidreef2.freeservers.com/temp/ATS-Borneman_Surge_Concept.jpg

Comments anyone?

Shane Graber
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Shane, looks good to me. In fact, fluctuating the water level and keeping the algae stationary is more like a natural turf community than moving the substrate the turf grows on(like a dump bucket). :D Have you seen the thick mossy turfs that grow on piers at the water line in the tidal area? That's some serious stuff! In all honesty, I think both applications work well. Your design just reminds me more of the large fishing piers covered in algae that get wet with each wave. The only concern I have is how much the air exposure and water exposure times matter. In your design, I forsee the algae being exposed for longer periods of time to air and water as it fills and empties. I seriously doubt this matters though. There are so many species of algae involved in a turf community, each with it's own set of adaptations and advantages. Some have a more competitive advatage in the lower/wetter levels, and some are more competitive higher up/drier area. Essentially one may grow faster being able to outcompete others, but may not do as well in the drier areas, where other algae grow have an adaptive advantage. Every ATS design, where algae is intermittantly exposed to moist air and water, will provide an environment that falls somewhere in this range of intertidal turf communities. Just what algae will grow might be different among the various designs. But it's still going to grow and work!:) Perhaps Eric can help out here, since my Bio. vocabulary is a bit weak these days. Like a foreign language I no longer use, I forget words... Eric, what do you call it when you can see distinct layers of biota in an intertidal area? A stratification of zones, each having different varieties of alga and grazers.

[Flatlander]

Eric, I have been thinking of that also. My tank is 4ft. by 3 ft. with the sps dominating a reef flat in the center area. This is where I intended the surge to be. Around the outsides are corals, like my large bubble that prefer very little flow, so the no auxillary pump idea may work well.

[EricHugo]

Shane:

Looks very interesting to me, too..almost intersting enough to pull the ATS out of the attic! I agree with you Mark - you may wind up with different turfs, but still effective. The analogy was a good one. I also get interesting turfs and algal crusts at the discharge line, the water line surface and the top of the surge tank on th glass. I try not to disturb them, either. I get Ulva growing really well attached to the glass right at the water line of all the tanks. Does poorly submerged.

I'm not quite sure I know the term you are lookign for Mark - intertidal sounds good to me.

Doug - you were thinking about doing what Shane is thinking of?

[Mark]

I guess they simply call it, Intertidal Zonation

Here's a figure from Nybakken's Marine Biology: An Ecological Approach

http://www.tidalblue.com/images/zonation.jpg

In this scenario, they're talking about barnacles, but it applies to algae as well. One of the long term things I'm interested in seeing is whether you can vary which turf communities become dominant by adjusting the timing of the dump bucket over time. It would obviously take months to see the result of each change, but hey I've got nothing better to do.;) The change in timing would be seconds, and may be too small to make a difference.

Doug,
What's the latest news on your ATS? Fixable?

Eric,
It would be great if you kickstarted that ATS again. I'm pretty excited at the fact that there will be more folks here using them. It would be neat to document everyone's experiences over time, since we are all just starting up the ATS units. Perhaps, we can help eliminate the bad and misguided reputation they have received.

You mentioned algae communities developing at the water line. I thought I'd share an interesting observation. I have a 20 gallon "leftovers" reef tank, that I have a cheap prizm skimmer on. Since the tank is lit with a pendant 10 inches away, the overflow return on the skimmer receives a lot of light as well. I recently added a small rock with some wiry turf communities on it, which I collected down in SE Florida. I was hoping to use it to seed the ATS. Unfortunately, the turf got grazed by the snails in the tank, and I found the rock bare. But recently, some of this turf has started growing nicely on the overflow return of the skimmer, out of harms way from the snails. Lately, I've been scraping it off biweekly, since it grows back quickly. While the area is fairly small, it's pretty neat to see a little pseudo-ats running on it. :)

[Flatlander]

Eric, I meant to try as your post said, with no supplemental powerheads and just using the dump/surge as the only means of water motion. I think this may do well, because of the layout of my reef.

Mark, Nothing yet. Being looked into on the other end. :( :( :( :(

[Fredfish]

Interesting thread.
Since putting an ats above the tank is not an option for me, and because I have room in the cabinet below the tank, I came up with yet another design.
Water from the tank would enter a surge device (yet to be designed) and would surge over a turf algae screen in a container below. From there, the water would flow into the sump and back into the tank.

Scuse the crude ascii

| | <- Surge device
| |
|___||__|
| || |
| ++++++++++++++++++| <-ats with screen (+)
||_||______________________| |
| || |
| sump == <- water to tank
|____________________________|

A side benefit to this design is the elimination of a pump for the surge ( or to feed the ats).

The only thing I haven’t figured out is placement of the algae screen. Should it be at the water line or below it?

Any input of comments would be appreciated.

[LiquidShaneo]

Doug: It may be a PITA but I think that can be fixed with enough time, acrylic, and glue/adhesive. Man that sux that it broke for you tho...

Fred: I read over an ATS archived thread on FishNet today and I believe Morgan said something about the need for the ATS screen to be surged back and forth and that is why the dump bucket is employed. I downloaded the archived thread in case anyone wants to read it. Either e-mail me (e-mail is in my profile) or post here and I'll forward the thread. FishNet is somewhat hard to navigate IMO. :)

Eric: I read your ATS article last nite and am wondering about what you considered "heavy feeding" and "light feeding" in your 40 gal breeder that employed ATS technology. How much was "heavy feeding" and how much was "light feeding"?


Heh, now I want to try making a *tiny* ATS for my 2.5 gal pico reef... ;)

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Fred, Looks good to me. But why not put the algae inside the surge device? That would save space and plumbing.


Heh, now I want to try making a *tiny* ATS for my 2.5 gal pico reef... ;)

Here's a pic of that overflow on my 20:

http://www.tidalblue.com/20g/images/DSCN0002.jpg


Another neat ATS design I've seen in person used to be made by US Aquarium for the Aquatic Wildlife Center in Tennesee. Basically, it was a black sump with a light box on it. But inside was a see-saw like dumping mechanism with two ATS screens. The water came from the center. As one side filled and dumped, the see saw would tilt and begin filling the other side. Then it would dump and tilt the see-saw back, thereby directing the other side to get filled with the centered water pipe.

[LiquidShaneo]

Heh, that sounds pretty kewl. :)

OK...here's a question: I just looked over Inland Aquatics' website and *no-where* can I see that they even sell ATS' anymore. I looked as hard as I could and didn't see the ATS100 or ATS250 for sale anywhere. Am I blind or am I missing something?

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Originally posted by LiquidShaneo
Heh, that sounds pretty kewl. :)

OK...here's a question: I just looked over Inland Aquatics' website and *no-where* can I see that they even sell ATS' anymore. I looked as hard as I could and didn't see the ATS100 or ATS250 for sale anywhere. Am I blind or am I missing something?

Shane
(aka "liquid")

Don't quote me on this, but rumor has it that Adey not only wanted a percentage of the profits from selling the ATS, but also a percentage of the profit made from raising corals,fish, etc. with the ATS at Inland. I believe a lawsuit followed, and now Inland is no longer allowed to sell the ATS units based on Adey's patent. This is all through the grapevine, so I do not know the validity of this. I know some of the Inland folks frequent this board, so perhaps they could elaborate or explain. It's a bummer though. Another company now exclusively makes them for Adey. They can be found at:

http://www.algaeturfscrubber.com/


Also here's the licensing info for Algae Scrubbers:

Upon the purchase of this Algae Turf Scrubber I am aware that this unit is intended for non-commercial indoor use only. Use on any public display, marriculture operation, any body of water consisting of 3000 gallons or better, and outdoor use is strictly prohibited.

Upon approval, you may obtain a license from Ecological Systems Technology, LP for use in any manner mentioned above.

Any retail store purchasing the Algae Turf Scrubber for use of distributing specimens on display to the retail market, yielding a gross receipt of 25 percent of or more in specimen sales from Algae Turf Scrubbers will pay an annual royalty of 8 percent to Ecological System Technology, LP. Before considering use of such manner mentioned above, seller would need to be approved and licensed by Ecological Systems Technology, LP.

You may inquire Ecological Systems Technology, LP about qualifying for a license directly:


Ecological Systems Technology, LP
9478 Bay Meadows Road
Gloucester VA, 23061


Taken from the algaescrubber.com web site.

[LiquidShaneo]

OK...wth is up with that? Morgan as well as Adey have shown that ATS' do work -- and quite well from what I've seen and read on the various bulletin boards. You would think that Adey would *promote* people using this technology on as many systems as possible so he gets more market share. The way he's going about it is killing the whole commercial concept. Arg. Money grubbing.... :sad2:

Oh well... Back to watching for them on E-Bay... ;)

Shane

[EricHugo]

My my my what a nice thread this turned into....

Shane, it was so long ago that I can't remember what and how much I fed that tank. It bordered on ludicrous, as I recall...five times per day?

Mark, nice screen! Nice mangrove leaf, too!

Fred, it would work, but the turfs that you want to promote seem to do best in that intertidal area - like where waves hit a rocky shore. There is some evidnce that some of the species may be able to translate flexion into energy or photosynthetic enhancement. They certainly do best with that partly exposed, partly submerged back and forth action of the dump bucket. I think you could also make it work by having a surge flow onto a screen where it was actually out of the water --- that would simulate the same conditions. It woudl really curtail the force of the surge, though.

On Adey and Inland...I won't go into it, but the rumor Mark just spread is eerily accurate from what I know, as well. Tragic, and also kind of odd as Walter is a super nice man. However, I have also been told he has an attorney in the family with whom I got the distinct impression that the handiwork is his doing. It is a major shame for Morgan and Walter - and neither party should have to go through anything like this as it is incredibly counterproductive to a product that has yet to see its time come and was just beginning to make some strides....so no, you can no longer order ATS from Morgan and because of the situation, I'm not sure I would personally support the true ATS design out of loyalty to my friend. I might be tempted to use one of the "alternate" algae scrubbers that have been around for a long time, even if they were the "competition" when Morgan had the license.

sigh. money. it ruins friends, businesses, marriages, families...I vote for a non-monetar based system - maybe we can go back to a trading system?

[Mark]

Mark, nice screen! Nice mangrove leaf, too!

Thanks Eric!:) I have a feeling the algae growing on the prizm skimmer does more for the tank than the actual skimmer.:D The mangrove is one fast growing tree! It's funny how a tank set up with leftover and cheap equipment w/ no regard to aquascaping/decoration, can end up more beautiful than the tank I baby and spend all my money on!

Eric is right about Adey. I met him at last year's MACNA, and he was a warm and friendly guy. That's why I was surprised to hear about the lawsuit. IMHO, Adey made a big mistake breaking his ties with Inland. Inland Aquatics is about the best advertisement/testament to what an ATS can provide. To be fair, I've exchanged emails with the folks at algaeturfscrubber.com, and they have always been friendly. But I still bought my screen from Morgan;).

Here's a pic of it installed on my screen. I cut a corner off and zip tied elsewhere on the screen to speed up coverage/colonization onto the bare areas. Eric, did your screen look like this? I always thought the screens were made up of more reddish turf alga. It may sound corny, but this is getting exciting. I feel like I'm entering a whole new facet to reefkeeping. I've always believed in less technology/more biology. Now I get to practice what I preach!:beachbum:

http://www.tidalblue.com/images/seededscreen.jpg

[EricHugo]

Hi Mark:

The image you attached didn;t load for me - I got an error message for it - but all the other potos on the page load fine.

Anyway, I know Morgan said there were a lot of different turfs seeded, and I got mostly long green filamentous types for many months with a heavy wet weight. It was probably about six months before I saw their replacement by the shorter turfs. At the end of my ATS tank time, and also when I re-set it up a few years ago with a fully screen instead of a starter patch, I would estimate about 60% of two predominant types of red turf (a soft and a stiff), about 20-30% of slightly longer (maybe by 1-2mm) very tough green turfs, and the remainder the longer filamentous types. The short turfs were very hard to scrape, as a plastic blade or card just sort of went right over the top of them...you almost had to grab a corner and peel it off like a mat. After dong this, the screen looked almost bare, but it wasn't, and developed the same fby time the next scraping came along. I would go 2-3 weeks without scraping at this point, whereas with the long filamentous types it was twice per week before the weight of it stopped the dump tray entirely.

[LiquidShaneo]

Mark: The photo you attached is pointed at your C:\ drive and that's why neither Eric nor I can see it. Upload it to yer website and repost the link. :)

Eric: Do you have any idea what "volume" you were feeding during your ATS experience? You mentioned in the article that you fed anywhere from every couple days to 5 - 6 times per day and I was just curious to know how much stuff you threw in there every time.

Also, I read a thread on FishNet that stated that the turfs will even out-compete macroalgaes. Do you agree or disagree with this statement Eric?


Man, that's too bad about the whole Inland / Adey issue. I agree that Adey made a big mistake by severing ties with Inland as that's the best place to showcase the technology. His loss I guess... :rolleyes:

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Wow that's weird. I did upload it to my web site, and I put the link in properly. But then I went in to edit my post this morning, and I noticed that it was indeed directed to my C drive. I fixed the image, so it should work now.

[Fredfish]

Liquidshaneo
“I believe Morgan said something about the need for the ATS screen to be surged back and forth “

The idea is to have the water from the surge device surge over the algae screen instead of doing it by dump.


Mark
“Fred, Looks good to me. But why not put the algae inside the surge device? That would save space and plumbing”

It would save space and plumbing, but would it give enough water velocity over the algae? When the ATS info was up at Inland, they mentioned something about needing enough water velocity to remove waste from immediately around the algae. If the velocity is too low, a thin boundary layer of water forms around each strand of algae. Waste products build up in this boundary layer and this interferes with the nutrient exchange process. I wanted to make sure there was enough water velocity to avoid this.

Eric
“Fred, it would work, but the turfs that you want to promote seem to do best in that intertidal area - like where waves hit a rocky shore. “

What if I angle the screen so that part of it is under water, but most of it is at and above the low water line? I could also set the screen on an angled piece of glass so that the water flows over the screen.

Hmm... If I built the container that holds the screen so that it angles up and away from the surge, the water from the surge would run up the screen and then back down. It might take a little fiddling to get the angle right, but this would probably work.

Eric. Does it matter how much time the algae spends below the water and how much time it is immersed? I can also fiddle with the drain rate into the sump to adjust the submersed/immersed time.

Fred.

[Flatlander]

Hey Mark, that looks like ca-ca, :D

Interesting point, Fred, on the volume of water, flowing over the alage. A point, I will keep in mind.

Eric, I feed 5 times a day now. :eek2: I think its normal.

[Mark]

Hey Mark, that looks like ca-ca,

Smelled like it too, when I first got it!:D:D

[EricHugo]

Mark:

No, those are the long filamentous turfs - they are efficient, but a PITA. The turfs I am talking about that become the climax community are short short short....like artificial turf short at their longest. those are the ones you want. If you see them start to develop, work extra hard to prune away the longer types at their borders and help them fill in....you'll be happy you did.

Shane:

Turf algaes are far far far more efficient than macroalgae. Its hard to say what outcompete means, though. They will outstrip nutrients, but they are also tasty and well grazed and macroalgae are well defended via calcium or chemicals...so macroalgae probably wouldn't outcompete them spatially, but would in terms of nutrient limitation. Macroalgae are not really that good at nutrient assimilation - I mean, they are good - better than a mangrove or seagrass, but less than turfs, and probably less than a lot of corals and sponges. I'm sure thats a case by case basis, but the point is that macroalgae outcompete corals in nutrient rich environments, but corals outcompete macroalgae in nutrient low waters....you see? So, are corals then more efficient? Furthermore, if one assumes the ridiculously low nutrient levels in ATS systems, you would be dealing with those same nutrient low conditions. Also, grazing is a huge giant factor in it all.

[Mark]

Mark:
No, those are the long filamentous turfs - they are efficient, but a PITA. The turfs I am talking about that become the climax community are short short short....like artificial turf short at their longest. those are the ones you want. If you see them start to develop, work extra hard to prune away the longer types at their borders and help them fill in....you'll be happy you did.

Ah, I see. Thank you. Since this system is in other ways fairly low maintenance, I will be quite diligent in trying to culture the short turfy stuff.

Btw, your description regarding nutrient competition with macroalgae was excellent. It's funny how so many people on this board and others preach the use of Caulerpa as a form of nutrient export. This includes me. But yet, algae turfs are so much more competitive/productive at assimilating undesirable nutrients. It's a bit surprising the ATS hasn't already caught on. I mean, look at protein skimmer trends. reefers are constantly driven to develop more powerful skimmers like the bullet, and we constantly thrive for more powerful lights(both, imho being counterproductive to some degree). With all these desires to go for bigger,better, more powerful; Why not go for the most productive algae? I consider the ATS to be the supercharged algae export. Plus, it's efficiency benefits the reefer by needing less surface area to get the job done. What I mean by that is, you'd have to have a fairly large sump full of Caulerpa to get the equivalent productivity of a small turf screen.

The only aspects that I can think of why Caulerpa is still the favored choice is that:

1. It's much easier to throw a light over your sump and dump some Caulerpa in, than incorporate an intertidal system to encourage Turfs to grow.

2. Most of us realize the benefit of a refugium. By setting up a separate tank or sump to grow Caulerpa, we not only establish a form of algal export but also the benefits of a refugium.

[EricHugo]

What else could I possibly add to that? Exactly.

[Flatlander]

The thing is, I found no benefit what-so -ever, in running a 55 gal. sump/deep sandbed/calerpa, on my 170. It runs better/as good, with a normal sump, and my Euroreef.

I figure the sandbed in the tank is enough by itself. The sump/refugium was also a pain in the backside. After the calerpa finally crashed, I just ran the sandbed, sometimes with the skimmer, sometimes without.

Any life produced by the sandbed and/or refugium, had to go through the main line Iwaki pump, never mind, skimmers and powerheads, to be of any benift to the tank. So, this concept for me, was just a filter, doing the same job as running my efficient skimmer.

Now with a scrubber, sitting on top, its a total different concept. Much better use of turf alages, no sumps, no large pumps and the one feeding the filter, will be before it and not after. Of course the downsize, is the cost of an ATS.

[Silicone]

Hi

A very interesting thread. I have read the article by Eric in a friends magazine when it came out, does anybody have a copy they could email me?? as I cant find the magazine and I would really like to read it again (assuming Eric doesnt mind??).

I have always thought about installing a screen into a small carlson surge bucket, if setup for a fast surge then conditions inside the bucket/container would be similar to a dump bucket but without the moving parts, hopefully encouraging the same sort or algae growth as seen in regular dump bucket scrubbers.

:)

[Snailman]

Shane...I had a 20 gallon surge device in a Sterlite tub. I put a piece of eggcrate covered with finerglass window screen in at an angle just like your drawing. I put a LOA 27 watt PC fixture right over it. I let it run for many many months and all it ever grew was cyno. :(

[LiquidShaneo]

Snailman, did you ever try buying a section of Morgan's screen for your surged screen? Maybe that would have sped things along?

So Doug, when do you anticipate having the ATS250 up and running on your system? And do you have any pictures of it by any chance (other than the cracked end)? I'd love to see it. :)

Shane

[Snailman]

I did not buy a seed screen because an unnamed marine biologist that has an ATS was going to send me one. I waited and waitied and waited and finally took the surge device down to replace it with one in a 44 gallon Rubbermaid Brute trash can. I am still tweekeing it. All that was on it was cyno, coralline and Aiptasia. :(

[64Ivy]

Whoa, whoa, whoa guys; first I get convinced to finally put a refugium on my tank and now THIS?!? Are we talking about the old Six n' One Half Thing, Winter's Coming So I Gotta Diddle With The Tank Thing, or This Is The Real Thing? :confused: ;)

[Snailman]

This is a fancy $800 refugia full of algae. :D

[caevan]

Hi I am new to this board, it is great to finally read a positive thread about algal turf scrubbers.
I built one 8 years ago using the basic description and photos in Dynamic Aquaria vol 1 and it has been in service since. I basically let it seed itself from the tank ()nobody in Sydney Australia to buy seeded mats from) which took about 4 weeks. Dr. Adey covers the issue of surging versus no surging over the algal mat, and basically says that he had tried both and found creating a surge over the mat promoted faster algal growth.

Hopefully now people may take interest in non-traumatic pumps as well. Plankton friendly arguements aside, non-traumatic pumps have other benefits as well. Most non-traumatic pump designs are based on positive displacement pumps ( eg. piston, diaphragm or screw pumps), all which can maintain flow rates as head increases.
I built myself a version of Dr Adey's motorised bilge pump (Dr. Adey was quite helpful) and was able to mount the pump above my light hood and get it to suck the water from my sump (a distance of about 2m ) and pump it into the tank and still maintain a flow rate equal to the Quiet One pump in replaced. The other big benefit was water was pumped into the tank in wave like surges.

[Snailman]

caevan



[welcome]



Please let us know when your web site is working because I would love to see your pump and ats.

[caevan]

Try the site now, I recently changed web servers and some of the links were stuffed. I have only posted information on the pump I made. I should hopefully have some info on the ATS soon, just need to borrow a digital camera.

[Flatlander]

Hi caevan.

Shane, I will not set it up until I find out about the insurance claims. :( :( :(

Here is a pic of the unit before.

[Agu]

I recently got a call from a local college regarding their skimmer, the person maintaining the tank wasn't sure it was working properly. It was an Oceanic 75 reef, lightly stocked, with an ATS. The skimmer in question was an amiricle cc that hadn't had the skimmer cup emptied in 1.5 years. The airstone was only extended 1" into the water column :rolleyes: . So essentially the ATS was the only mechanical filtration. Although the tank was mediocre, what struck me was the health of three organisms. A green open brain that was easily 12" across, an anemone I couldn't identify that had moved to directly under the surge and looked great, and a flame scallop that was absolutely gorgeous. The scallop had been in the tank when the current caretaker took over the tank 1.5 years ago!! I have to suspect the ATS had something to do with the scallops health in spite of their known difficulty.

fwiw,
Agu

[Mark]

Hey Agu,

If the skimmer cup hadn't been emptied in over a year, I wonder how often the screen has been scraped/rinsed in FW. I suspect the tank would be in even better shape if the ATS was maintained properly.

[LiquidShaneo]

Doug: How much does that ATS250 weigh when running? That looks seriously kewl. I can't wait for you to get that thing up and running. :)

Eric: What volume of food were you feeding per time you fed your tank when you were feeding heavy?

Mark: How's the seed screen coming along on your ATS100?

Thanks! :)

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

The seed screen is still alive and kicking, which is good. But it doesn't seem to be spreading. Then again, I installed it last Thursday, and it hasn't even been a week. Can you tell that I'm impatient?:)

[Agu]

Mark,

The skimmer cup wasn't emptied because there was no skimmate. He mentioned that students are taught to maintain the tank, so you're probably right about the screen. I'll go check it out again, but as I recall it looked like plain old hair algae on the screen.

Agu

[LiquidShaneo]

FWIW, hair algae (i.e. Bryopsis) is one of the turf algaes that Adey lists will grow in his ATS according to his patents (which I'm reading thru this week -- all 5 of them). :)

Oh, in case any of you would like to read any of Adey's patents:

4,333,263
4,966,096
5,097,795
5,851,398
5,715,774


here's how to do it. BTW...this method will show you the full scanned in patent and not the cheezy HTML patent text only.

First off, go to: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html and click on "How to Access Full-Page Images" which will take you to: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/images.htm There it explains how to view images in your browser as the full patents are scanned in in TIFF format using CCITT Group 4 compression which IE does not support without a specific browser plugin. To view the scanned in patents, you will need to install the AlternaTIFF IE plugin for your particular version of IE: http://www.alternatiff.com/. When I installed AlternaTIFF, I had to check the box during the install to have it modify my Windows Registry to make it work properly otherwise it didn't work. Depending on your version of IE, you may have to select a specific version of AlternaTIFF.

Once you have AlternaTIFF installed, go back to http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html and click on "Patent Number Search". Next, enter a patent number you want to view (such as 4,333,263). Once the search function finds the patent, click on the linked patent number which will take you to the html patent text. Now for the meat and potatoes option... ;)

Up at the top of the page, there are a bunch of different buttons in blue. One of those buttons says "IMAGES". Click it. Now you have the full patent at your finger tips. :) The down side is you cannot save the entire patent at once. You have to save each page individually in .tif format. To scan thru all of the pages, on the left hand side of the page are some yellow arrows. Use the arrows to page thru the patent.

To view the .tif's I used Paint Shop Pro v.5. I'm sure there are plenty of graphics programs out there that will view .tif's, so choose your favorite program and have fun. :)

Have fun! :)

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[piercho]

I'd like to get a better handle on what you guys are kicking around here.

First, the real newbie question: In referene to E. Borneman's article on algae turf scrubbers, what is the article name an what does the anacronism "TFH" stand for?

Second, can anyone recommend W. Adey's book "Dynamic Aquaria" as a good reference for the home aquarist, or is this more of an academic work?

E. Borneman: Does the ATS do anything to remove the toxins produced by some coral and plants that you talk about in your (excellent) book "Aquarium Corals"? How does it compare to a long-contact CC skimmer for this, or is dilution the only real solution?

Mark: what is that material that you have your algae mat tied to and where did you get it?

Thanks.

[Mark]

TFH stands for Tropical Fish Hobbyist, which is an aquarium hobby magazine. The month and year of the magazine which the article is published in is listed above.

Dynamic Aquaria is IMHO a book that should belong in each aquarist's library. Even if one doesn't ever use an Algae Turf Scrubber, the book offers a good introduction into ecosystem dynamics, trophic structures, and other important biological concepts. More importantly, he explains how these concepts apply or play out within a captive system, such as an aquarium.

I'm not sure how much Eric has looked into the efficiency of an ATS or skimmer in terms of removing toxic compounds, but he did mention in his article that he had success growing Acropora and other 'sps' corals in close proximity to Softies. So one could presume these toxins are being taken care of somewhere, or perhaps the softies became accustomed to the presence of other stonies and reduced the amount of these compounds produced. I'll let Eric elaborate here since it was his tank. :D

As for the turf screen, it appears to be a plastic mat with holes in it. Kinda like plastic window screening, except the size of these holes wouldn't keep any bugs out.;) there are two layers of this material. HTH:)

Shane,

Thanks for the links. :)

[EricHugo]

Mark covered my answer just fine - I don't know how chemicals released from animals would play into the turf, although for sure soft corals do release some compounds that are algicidal, so that couldn't be good for it.

[piercho]

Can anyone provide tha volume and number of the TFA article by Eric? Also, the article title would be very helpful. I'm having to go to the UW periodical desk to get this sent to my and their on-line catalog is not too helpful for periodicals.

Thanks.

[LiquidShaneo]

piercho: No idea. All I know is that it's in The Fish Hobbyist, March, 2000. Title: ATS in Action: One Year with an Algae Turf Scubber by Eric Borneman.


FYI: not sure if everyone's seen this or not but this is the webpage for Adey at the Smithsonian: http://www.apapets.com/MarineEcosystem/index.html

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Flatlander]

Shane, not sure what the operational weight will be, but its pretty heavy. Shipping weight was almost 50lbs.

[LiquidShaneo]

Hey Eric, why did you remove your ATS from your 40 gal tank anyhow?

Shane

[EricHugo]

It reads Volume XLVIII Number 7 #528

Shane, I took it down because it was during a period where I had at least two tanks in every room of the house and taking care fo them all was driving me batty - couldn't enjoy any of them, and the system itself was (intentionally) a hodge podge of life. I combined systems and gave away a lot of stuff. I put the ATS back onto another tank later, but only because it was a holding tank that held remnants from my 1999 tank disasters while in Australia...that tank had no real purpose, and unfortunately because this was when the ATS was working at its best. I lost the motivation to do a new type habitat, and just took it down until I decided to set up something where I could again use it. I guess the reason I haven;t is because it isn;t a large unit and I don;t really want to run a smallish tank anymore. Couple this with the fact that I am really rather fond of just running a closed system without any "filtration" - to me, its just another thing to mess with and my water quality is already very high without it or skimmers or anything, so the question for me becomes, what, where, when and ...why?

[piercho]

I've been unable to hunt down Eric's article in the Seattle Area - that includes the U of W library. Any help would be appreciated.

I'm putting a surge on my tank and I'd like to incorporate an ATS in the design. The surge will dump into the ATS, then flow into the main tank. I have a few questions I hope you quys will be kind enough to answer.

1)Is 6500k PC at about 5" from the algae screen adequit intensity to support growth of the desired type of algaes?

2)Is there a rule of thumb relating tank load or tank volume to the area of screen needed?

3)Is there a rule of thumb for frequency of surges to optimize ATS performance?

4)Is the screen suppose to be in air between surges, or remain submerged?

Right now I'm planning to put a 32W PC over a 18G tub with a 18"X 12" ATS in it. 3.5G surges will pass through the tub every 30 seconds. This will help support a 65G main tank with a DSB. I'm trying to avoid a skimmer on this "lagoonal" system, but I haven't been able to get control over my nitrogen (and DOM, in general) so far with just the DSB. It is a new system.

Any input would be appreciated.

[caevan]

piercho,
A colour temperature of around 4000K is better suited to promoting algal growth in a scrubber.
I currently use 4000k 175w MH bulb over my scrubber. Also from my readings higher intensity light is important. Remember you are trying to create an optimal environment for growing algae, and encouraging it to grow on the scrubber rather than in your tank.
"Dynamic Aquaria" give a rough guide as to the scrubber area to tank volume. From memory he as an 0.18m sq (metric) for his 120g home reef. I use a 18 inch by 10 inch mat for my 50g tank.
I do not think contact with air is important, though my scrubber is a dump bucket design there is alway a small amount of water covering the algae. What is of greater importance is getting the to and fro movement of the algae

[piercho]

Thanks Caevan!

[Snailman]

Size was my bigest question. The InlandAquatics units used 1 square inch per gallon of tank size (100 & 250 gal units). www.algaeturfscrubber.com uses 1.4 sq in/gal in the small unit(90 gal), .69 sq in/gal in the mid unit (400 gal) and .56 sq in/gal in the big unit (3000 gal). this all makes it about as clear as Dynamic Aquaria. :(

[caevan]

Snailman,
I can understand the confusion, when I built my ATS I only had Dynamic Aquaria vol 1 as a guide and used the are quoted for the 120g home tank and scaled it down.
If I was to build one again I think I would follow the same approach, since it worked well for me.
I would say rather than tank volume one of the major factors influencing total are would be the tank load.
You could compensate for an undersized scrubber by farming it more often, though from memory Dr Adey does tank about how to determine if the scrubber is to large for the tank, but I would have to reread the chapter to remember exactly what he said.

[cwa46]

Fredfish,

I have been running a homemade ATS for about 8 months. It is essentially what you are describing. It is under the tank(basement) and surges into the sump. It is not a dump bucket, but a stationary screen with variable water levels. I get 4-8 ounces of wet algae per weekly scraping. You can see the ATS at my web site.
With an ATS and a refugiumand DSB, I can feed very heavily.

[Fredfish]

cwa46,

Thanks for the link. Thats an innovative design you have.

My tank and sump are in the livingroom so noise is a big issue (no noisy slurping while my spouses favourite show is on :(). I'm stumped right now as I think that all surge devices will probably make more noise than the family finds acceptable.

I suspect that the algae dump bucket that Adey uses will be the most quiet, IF I can figure out a way to get water into the bucket without a lot of splashing.

I will probably move my sump into the basement once I can afford a larger pump!

Fred.

[MarkS]

Am I the only one who is outraged by their agreement? Imagine what would have happened if the creator of the protein skimmer had decided to do that! It's just a filter for God's sake! How does using this filter and selling corals out of the tank in any way warrent them collecting money from the sale of the corals? What harm does it do for me to use on a tank 3000 gallons or more? Why would they NOT want it used on a public aquarium? How can they honestly think that by doing any of this you suddenly owe THEM money?

And then I noticed that little disclaimer at the bottom of each page. :rolleyes: They trademarked the words "refuge" and "refugium"! I wonder if they have gone after any authors or makers of refugiums for violating their trademark? Really sad.

I would not purchase one of their filters, even if I was impressed with it. I would just DIY. I would never buy from a company that would do this to it's customers. I mean, what if I happened to open a LFS in the future? By God, I would not pay them a dime!

Anyway, off of my soapbox and back to your regularly scheduled program...

Mark

[Flatlander]

:hammer:

[MarkS]

Uh... yeah...

[LiquidShaneo]

Mark: How's the tank looking with the ATS100 on it? Any update?

Shane (aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Originally posted by LiquidShaneo
Mark: How's the tank looking with the ATS100 on it? Any update?

Shane (aka "liquid")

Well,

It's kinda weird. I've been battling this red stuff in both tanks for months now. In the 75 gallon reef, I noticed that is affected the growth of my macroalgae. Now, in the 38 gallon ats system, the turfs haven't spread after 2 weeks. Inland said it only takes a week. Last night, I took out all the rocks and scrubbed off as much of the red stuff as I could. I'm now leaving the tank dark for 4 days, but keeping the scrubber on it's normal light cycle. Hopefully this will give the turf a kickstart while the red stuff withers away. I was originally hoping that the ATS would simply outcompete the red algae, but that didn't happen. Again, I wonder if the red stuff is using chemical competition to inhibit the growth of other algae. Just a thought. Keep in mind that this appears to be the same algae that drove Sanjay to tear down his tank, bleach it, and start over. I'm desperately trying to avoid that scenario.

I did the same scrubbing-rocks thing to the 75, without the dark phase. I also added some Mexican Turbos, which Carlos recommended. The prognosis on the 75 is good, and the macroalgae are gaining their foothold. The turbos actually seem to like this red stuff as well.

So, that's the long drawn out story. I also received some biotrace this weekend, and will begin dosing it.

[LiquidShaneo]

You got a pic of this "red stuff"? Is it kinda bubbly and grows all over your macroalgaes? I've got some issues with a red microalgae that's currently growing on top of my macro's too and from the looks of it, it's also out competing my macro's...

Also, what is "biotrace"?

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Check out the long-winded thread title Algae ID by Edsreef in Eric's forum:

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=30618&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

It's a sporophytic stage of a more fleshy algae. It resembles red cotton. Sanjay has pics of it on his site here:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/s/b/sbj4/aquarium/reef_pictures/algae/algae1.jpg

Here's a link showing the sporophyte and gametophyte phase:

http://www.uog.edu/classes/botany/Mar_Bot/Asparagopsis.htm


I hope for your sake, that you do not have it. If you do, it seems turbos will actually graze the stuff.

Biotrace is a trace element supplement that Inland recommends to help kickstart the algae. The contents seem to be a mix of a variety of things including strontium, vitamin c, and other stuff. Kinda like a combisan, but the biotrace actually seems to have stuff in it. Well.. at least it has color to it(combisan not only was water, but it looked like water.) The only place I could find it online was:

http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/trace_elements.html


Sigh...I miss the days my tanks ran like they were on Autopilot.:(
I'm sure other online retailers carry it, but a quick search only turned up this site. The 32 oz. is pretty big, which is what I ordered.

[LiquidShaneo]

Whew. Nope, that's not the same stuff that I have. Hope you get yours under control soon... Man, that sux...

Shane

[Diatom2]

You guys are killing me!! I just got my refugium set up now I gotta figure out how to build a Surge/ATS.

Hey Eric I'll take your old ATS off your hands for you, you don't want that dirty old thing sitting around your place anyway do you? :D Aren't I a generous. *lol*

[Flatlander]

Thats what makes it fun. My wife says I keep aquariums just so I can always switch things around & buy new thingys.

When we use to RV on vacation, I always came back from Minnesota, with the 5-th wheel full of aquarium goodies.:D

[Mark]

LOL,

I'm with you Doug! I love to tinker with new gadgets. You should see the variety of skimmers in my closet!:D

[Flatlander]

Although the reason I am going to install the ATS, is to make it more simple. As I once said, I wish to use it as my only outside source of filtration and water flow,[ after Eric,s suggestion].

This will eliminate the sump, return pump, skimmer, hoses &pipes,[:celeb1:], 5 powerheads, my Kold Sterile, etc.

I just need to purchase a new reactor, as mine sits in the sump and with the tank being covered, there will not be enough evaporation for kalk.

[Mark]

I'm with you man. Simplicity is best. I guess I should clarify that my fondness of gadgets has not led me to the high-tech tank. I believe in the "less technology, more biology approach." Slowly, I've been undergoing some changes in my approach. The ATS tank is meant to be as simple as possible. No sump, reactors, anything. If it goes well, I'll attack the larger system. Right now, I'm working on replacing the calcium reactor on the larger system for a nilsen reactor. For some reason, kalk just seems less technical. No CO2 cylinders to deal with. Once I figure out a way to get an affordable ATS for the 75, I'll probably yank the skimmer on it as well. I was thinking since my tank is reef-ready, I could just plug the bulkheads and make the overflow chamber a place for my float switch and heater. I can also put the powerhead that powers the ATS in there, to help process the proteins that would develop on the surface. Think of all the room I'd have in the stand underneath!:) I think such a tank would be a little less prone to failures, and thus more vacation friendly. At last, I could go on my dive trips without constantly worrying about my tank!

[Flatlander]

Same line of thinking as myself,:D . My overflow will do the same.

I to, would like to use kalk, but what about evaporation. If yours is set-up like mine, and covered, the rate will be to low to sustain enough kalk drip to keep up with the heavy demand of my tank.

Part will need to be covered to keep the salt creep from the dump limited. Esp. from reading DT,s posts, when he was using yours.

[Mark]

I'm not experiencing the same salt creep problem. With the ATS, I've noticed my evap rate has increased significantly, even with the tank completely covered by glass lids. This might help with the kalk situation. Fwiw, I've never had a problem keeping my calcium levels up with kalk. Granted, it's hard for kalk to keep alkalinity at the same high levels that reactors do, but I can live with a dkh of 7 instead of 10. I think nilsen reactors help make kalk dosing more efficient. I also no longer keep a zillion sps anymore which has reduced the calcium demand.

I guess the whole calcium demand thing hints at another area where I'm beginning to keep things simple. And that's stocking densities. As you can tell from the outdated pics on my site, my reef was heavily stocked with corals for a while. I've had a few mishaps along the way, and now my tank is less densily stocked. The more I read and read, I'm starting to realize how unnatural densely stocked reef tanks are. Everyone worries about overstocking fish, but yet few think of corals along the same lines. I attribute a lot of the mishaps that occured to my tank due to the stress from overcrowding. The remaining corals have a lot more breathing room now. I'm going to try to keep it that way.

Kinda like how you got rid of a lot of softies, I'm trying to make my tank a less stressfull place for corals.:) I've always enjoyed seeing pics of your tank, since it's a good example how good a reef can look if one doesn't stuff it to the brim with rock and coral. Your tank is very open, and the corals appear to have a lot of breathing room. That's what I'm striving for now.


So hopefully I can go without the reactor. I intend to hold onto it, in case the kalk doesn't cut it.

[LiquidShaneo]

FWIW, here's how I got around having to deal with a Nilsen reactor: http://www.liquidreef.com/kalkwasser.htm

Shane
(aka 'liquid')

[Mark]

Hey Liquid, that's a great idea. Especially the styrofoam thing. I think Capn at Augsburg has something like that setup as well, with great results. Have you noticed any deterioration with the styrofoam? I'm just wondering if the caustic nature of kalk(12 pH) is affecting it in any way.

[LiquidShaneo]

Heh, Capman was the one I got the idea from originally. :) Nope, I haven't seen any deterioration in the styrofoam at all and I've been using that same piece for over 6 months now. Styrofoam is amazingly inert. :p I go thru that 18 gal tub of kalkwasser about every 2 weeks or so and it's worked amazingly well for me. I think total I spent *maybe* $100 ($90 being the dosing pump off ebay) to set this thing up. I haven't had to deal with topoff since other than maybe making minor tweaks to the topoff rate every couple weeks. I add an excess of pickling lime and have a powerhead stir the mixture 2x per day for 15 minutes. Ca=450, alk=10 dKH, pH=8.3-8.6 pretty consistently. If you have a dosing pump, it's an easy DIY project. :)

Shane
(aka 'liquid')

[Mark]

If you have a dosing pump, it's an easy DIY project.

Working on the dosing pump thing now. I have one of the medical ones, but the silicon tubing tends to leak after a month or two of kalk dosing. I don't think it can take the caustic nature of the kalk. I figure with a nilsen, it only has to dose fw into the reactor, so no damage to the tubing. I'm looking to getting a better pump, however, which would nullify this problem. :-)

[Flatlander]

Looks good Shane, I just book marked it.

First, thank-you for the comments on my tank Mark. Those are mutual. Even though I added many different sps frags, I tried to give them all lots of room to grow. For sure height, as they have at least 18 inches to the surface. I just hope they dont over grow the tank,:D

They will be fragged lots, as many were given to me free by different lfs, to grow and frag for them also.

If the evaporation increases with the use of my ATS, then perhaps I could keep up. A gallon per day, plus 40ml/day of a 2-part, does not even come close. Besides my reactor, I now does a gallon/day, which is my current evaporation rate.:D

[LiquidShaneo]

Well folks, I just visited Inland Aquatics this weekend for the first time and they were gracious enough to allow me to take some behind the scenes pictures of their place. Thus, I decided to resurrect this thread. :) At any rate, here's the pictures that I took:

http://www.liquidreef.com/stores.htm

There's pictures of their freshwater setup, their fish aquaculturing rooms, and the store including the back warehouse that they were gracious enough to allow me to wander thru. The tour was *awesome*! :)

FWIW, I also took a couple short video clips of their various ATS' dumping:

http://www.liquidreef.com/stores/inland_aquatics/general/150ats-dump.mpg

http://www.liquidreef.com/stores/inland_aquatics/general/ats-dump.mpg

http://www.liquidreef.com/stores/inland_aquatics/general/large-ats-dump.mpg


After visiting their place, I still think an ATS is a viable option for people to investigate. I think the key is to size the ATS screen appropriately for the application at hand and to use high intensity lighting which Adey goes over in detail in his Dynamic Aquaria publication.

Did the water have a yellow color? Yes, in some tanks it did. However, other tanks on the *exact* same system using the exact same water did not show this "yellow" coloration so I believe that it was their lighting source that was turning the water this "yellow" color and not necessarily the ATS (however I could see how an ATS could discolor the water after a while). I saw all sorts of different bulbs: Iwasaki's and Venture / HPS bulbs over tanks. Here's a good pic to illustrate the point: http://www.liquidreef.com/stores/inland_aquatics/general/cwdata/lights.html . Considering there's at least 3 Iwasaki 6500 K bulbs currently on the market all with a slightly different color "look" to them, I can easily see how someone might think that an ATS turns the tank yellow. BTW...they use a TON of lighting in that store!

One thing that I found strange was their use of ATS' on freshwater planted aquaria. Why would a person use an ATS to export nutrients on a planted tank? As long as the proper nutrients are in balance, no nuisance algae should grow and nutrient export should be acheived by simply pruning the plants. I didn't ask about this at the time, but I still can't figure out why a person would run an ATS on a FW planted tank...

Also, I checked out their in-tank refugiums and they do kick some serious butt. It looks like a nice option if you don't want to spend the $$$ on a CPR hang-on refugium. Heck, you could easily make an in-tank refugium from some cheap pieces of acrylic or even egg-crate material (which is something I did for frag growout -- I'll take some pics of it today at lunch).

A neat option that they also had on their above the tank ATS units was that before the water spilled into the ATS dump bucket, it was first pumped into an acrylic refugium which then dumped into the ATS dump bucket section. The pics of the refugium are in the "general" index under the pic names "ats-fuge1.jpg" and "ats-fuge2.jpg". It was definitely a neat option but it would really need to be on a longer tank because of the length of the ATS unit itself.

After seeing it all first hand, would I investigate further and see what installing an ATS would do for me? You bet I would.

At any rate, review the pictures and start asking questions if you have any. :)

Enjoy! :)

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[Mark]

Great Pics! Thanks for sharing them with us!:)

[EricHugo]

Shane:

Glad you made it and was impressed with their facility - great folks, aren't they? Morgan always find the time for hobbyists who visit, and its not just that, or the care and knowledge given and available there, but the whole package that has made me such an ardent supporter of Inland all these years. You just don't see this many places. You can also appreciate the cost difference - no they aren't cheap, but nor do most places treat their animals with the same or better care and facilities than they get in a home tank.

As to the yellow water, there is nothing in the Adey pardigm or in the paradigm at Inland that prevents them from simply using some carbon. Its Morgan's experience that makes it yellow - that is, he has found nothing deleterious from the yellow water in some tanks, so he doesn't spend the money to make it clear, since the health of the organisms isn't being affected and the tanks are working tanks, not display tanks.

The yellow, as you note, is twofold - partly the lights, partly the scrubbers. Think about it - you spend a few years without doing water changes and doing the equivalent of taking a handful of algae every week and squeezing it (scraping the screen) into the water. You wind up with a high chlorophyll count and this is the same as an inshore or lagoonal reef in the wild. As Morgan says, if the scrubbers didn't work, they'd have to be idiots to maintain tank volumes that high run of scrubbers - not only in terms of oragnism health, but in terms of maintenance, and he gives part credit to the ability to maintain such large systems to the fact that water changes aren;t done and don;t need to be. Pretty cool.

[Flatlander]

Greta pics Shane. Thanks.:D Love those clips also. Gonna go watch them some more.

Man, look at the sandbed in the 150.:eek1:

[Fredfish]

Nice pics Shane!

I am rethinking the way I set up a scrubber for my tank. I would like to put in the dump tray instead of using a surge bucket for water flow across the algae screen.

The only issue I have is the constant noise of water splashing as it enters the dump tray (livingroom tank). How much noise did the water inlet to the scrubber make?

Fred.

[Martyn]

Originally posted by EricHugo
Mark:Shane:

Turf algaes are far far far more efficient than macroalgae. Its hard to say what outcompete means, though. They will outstrip nutrients, but they are also tasty and well grazed and macroalgae are well defended via calcium or chemicals...so macroalgae probably wouldn't outcompete them spatially, but would in terms of nutrient limitation. Macroalgae are not really that good at nutrient assimilation - I mean, they are good - better than a mangrove or seagrass, but less than turfs, and probably less than a lot of corals and sponges. I'm sure thats a case by case basis, but the point is that macroalgae outcompete corals in nutrient rich environments, but corals outcompete macroalgae in nutrient low waters....you see? So, are corals then more efficient? Furthermore, if one assumes the ridiculously low nutrient levels in ATS systems, you would be dealing with those same nutrient low conditions. Also, grazing is a huge giant factor in it all.

Hi Eric.
Very thought provoking thread.
Nobody I know of in the UK supplys or works with this type of system if they do they don't deal with the public which means a DIY job for me.
What I am interested in is what are the types of turf you are talking about and how to aquire them.
I presume as you say intertidal turfs they are not these type of turfs that I get in some of my tanks.
I attach the type of turfs I get.

This one was not named.

http://www.globaldialog.com/~jrice/algae_page/grnturf.jpg

Cladophora prolifera

http://www.gettysburg.edu/~rcavalie/bda_i/images/13.2.jpg

This red turf Gelidium pulsillum which is like some green turfs I have once attached too rock very hard to remove.

http://www.globaldialog.com/~jrice/algae_page/redhair.jpg

Thanks for any advice.

Martyn

[caevan]

Fred,
My scrubber is a dump tray design, in terms of how noisy it is, I do not think I would be the best judge, as I have had it for so long now, that I only notice it when it isn't working.
Though the tank and scrubber are in the same room as the Television and it does not interfere with that. The part of the tank that creates the most noise is the fan in my light hood.
The loudest noise the scrubber makes is the noise it makes when it swings back in place after emptying. At that point it hits a piece of plastic to stop it over swinging. The noise of the dump tray hitting that piece of plastic is quite loud ( a bit like one of those Japanese deer scarers).
I had thought about using a suitable material to dampen the sound, though it has to be durable enough to take the constant hammering. I am sure somebody who is better at DIY can figure a better way.

[EricHugo]

My dump tray has a piece of neoprene that prevents the tray from contacting hard plastic. In terms of the nise, it wasn;t silent, but not very noisy either. In fact, I found this particular aquarium noise to be a very soothing one -

Martyn:

Those are definitely turfs. The Gelidium is not so much because of its habitat in the wild, but certainly would work as one.
Best answer I can give you is to contact Inland and ask them the species they have identified, or look in the Littler texts or guides to marine plants of the Caribbean to see what are common intertidal turf species - there are many.

Some of them will grow on their own, but I found that having them pre-seeded is a sure thing whereas hoping you have the species present and able to colonize a new screen is sort of hit and miss, especially if the tank has been up and running for awhile or withwell-cured and/or long term rock.

[Mark]

My ATS sounds like one of those ocean sound machines that people use as white noise. The tank is in my living room, and it is very soothing. Sometimes when I'm lounging on the couch, it lulls me to sleep!:D My ATS also has a sponge to soften the thump when the bucket pivots back. I actually added an additional sponge, and now I hear no thump at all.:) So far, the ats has been doing a phenominal job. I love it. If I ever get my hands on a larger model, I can tell you right now that the bigger tank will be converted as well.

[LiquidShaneo]

In regards to the sound the dump bucket makes when it surges: all I heard was a very gentle swish when it dumped and then a gentle squishy sound when the bucket went back into place. They were very quiet from what I saw. Now the tanks out in the back shop were LOUD, but they weren't made to be silent like the ones that are sold for on a display tank. Those bad boys were there for one purpose: to scrub and when they surged they banged. Don't let that deter you tho as the display tank scrubbers were almost silent.

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[LiquidShaneo]

Any notes so far on your tank Mark? How's it running now with Dendro's old ATS100?

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[Flatlander]

My 250, also has foam stop pads. A medium size at the front and a huge one on the rear, for the return.

Alas, still awaiting claim info for the outside shell.:sad2:

Agreed with hard to remove red Martyn. Man thats terrible stuff. My urchins finally cleaned it up.

[Mark]

Originally posted by LiquidShaneo
Any notes so far on your tank Mark? How's it running now with Dendro's old ATS100?

Shane (aka 'liquid')

Tanks doing great. Evaporation has gone up considerably, but that's not a bad thing. The corals seem very pleased, and I rarely have to scrape the glass. The only area where I'm debating is flow. I didn't think the surge by itself was enough flow, so I have two additional powerheads in there. But then, I believe Eric ran his 40 gallon without additional powerheads. So I'm tempted to be experimental and turn off the two additional powerheads. My gut says it wouldn't be enough flow, but I'd like to see firsthand if it actually is/isn't. Eric, any thoughts on this?

[LiquidShaneo]

Mark,

I was suprised how low flow Inland's tanks were too when I saw them. However, I did see that they used impellor pumps in a couple of their display tanks to increase flow. FWIW, here's a pic of one of their 55 gal tanks w/ the ATS 100 unit on top:

http://www.liquidreef.com/stores/inland_aquatics/general/55ats5.JPG

They were only running one powerhead in there (similar to a MJ 1200 for flow) and the corals were looking great. Here's what I believe to be M.capricornis in the above tank along w/ a couple shrooms:

http://www.liquidreef.com/stores/inland_aquatics/general/m-cap.JPG

Their tanks definitely looked good. :)

What specifically have you noted between your skimmed tank that you didn't see when running the ATS on your tank?

Shane

[Fredfish]

caevan;

Would you happen to have design drawings for your dump bucket? It would save me a lot of fiddling to find the right balance point etc.

Fred.

[piercho]

I would like to ask those of you who are doing this how much of a problem pods grazing the turf is. I am contemplating putting an ATS in a closet behind my tank and the water level would be common with the tank. A Borneman-style surge would dump into the ATS via 2" pipe and then the ATS would flow to the main tank via 1" pipe.

My main concern is a herd of pods coming back through the 1" pipe and chomping up the turf faster than the turf can grow. Is this concern realistic? When I was culturing grammarus I never could grow Ulva faster than the pods could multiply and consume it. Reading earlier posts in this thread it seems that they (pods in general) consume turfs, as well.

[caevan]

Fred,
I will try to put something together tonight (just so you knwow, right now it is 9:20am in Sydney Australia).
I know what you mean about the balance point, it is hard. When I asked Dr Adey about it he did not think it was critical and could be adjusted for by the counter weight, he uses lead shot. I found it easier and more reliable to use water as my counter weight.

[EricHugo]

Shane:

Inland speaks miles for what can be accomplished with flow that look abyssmally small in comparison to most tanks. I still don't think its healthy in many ways - boundary layers, etc...the O2 provided by the turfs on RDP minimizes the really detrimental effects, but hey, if it works...

Pods can be a real pain on the turf screen - frequent scraping, even if it doesn;t need it ( once per week) along with a freshwater rinse controls them without issue, though.

[Mark]

Originally posted by LiquidShaneo
Mark,

What specifically have you noted between your skimmed tank that you didn't see when running the ATS on your tank?

Shane


Well, the best way I can describe it is that the tank has this new healthy glow to it. The sandbed is teeming with more life, which I have no idea whether I can attribute that to the removal of the skimmer. The neatest part is feeding. At times, I have literally dumped in more food than I would normally feel comfortable. Yet, no change in the tank whatsoever. Not even a slight increase in algae on the glass. The ATS simply takes care of it. One thing I haven't noticed is an increase in pods. But then, the tank was virtually void of pods before the ATS was installed. I did, however, add some pod/worm rich rock to the tank, from a smaller reef I tore down. So I am curious to see how they will proliferate. I'm also testing to see how well this system caters to delicate live food munchers. I added a small Jann's pipefish. I am supplementing with frozen and live enriched brine, as well as mysid. I do this because the pipefish has to compete with a firefish, blenny, and goby. The only other inhabitants are a peppermint shrimp, a pistol shrimp(hangs with the goby), some snails and a hermit. I'll take some pics this week.

I switched off one of the powerheads. Now I only have the surge and a maxijet 900(which is directed at the surface). I did this for several reasons. One, I think the pipefish appreciates the calmer flow. Two, I want to see first hand how the ATS performs so well despite low flow. I'm leaving the mj 900 because I think some surface agitation is a good thing.:)

[LiquidShaneo]

When you get the pics up, let us know. I'd love to see how it's functioning for you. :)

Shane
(aka 'liquid')

[piercho]

Still trying to sop up you guy's experience:

I was only aware of the algaeturfscrubber.com ATS product. Then I saw this site:
http://www.aquaticengineers.com
I have no idea what their prices are. But separating the ATS from the surge struck me as a potentially problem-solving idea.

Any feedback on aquatic engineers? What about the slow rotating wheel to periodically submerged the screen? It seems this method might be less vulnerable to variations in the turf density (weight), assuming the turf grows across all the screens evenly.

[LiquidShaneo]

I saw a unit sitting on an empty tank at Inland Aquatic that was mfg by Aquatic Engineers but it wasn't even in service. I take that back...they did have it in service but the tank was empty of other than water to show how the unit worked. Looked interesting and somehow AE was able to get around Adey's patents w/ that thing. Dunno how it compares to a dump bucket tho....

Do a search on the General Discussion forum for Aquatic Engineers as this topic has been covered a couple times on that forum. I think Staceon was going to visit them the last I saw on one of the threads. I wish I had known that they were right around Indy as I drove right past them last weekend and I woulda stopped had I known about them...

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[caevan]

Fred as promised
http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images/drawing4.gif
It is also on my site atwww.greatsagehabibi.com/ats.php (http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/ats.php)
The dimensions are in metric :(
The equivalent inches are:
Length = 19"
Width = 10"
Deep end = 4" high
Shallow end = 0.4" high
The rod is placed 7" in from the deep end, I do not think it's vertical position is important though I placed it half way up.
A moveable piece of Acrylic is place 4" from the deep end. This creates an area which fills with water first then flows into the rest of the scrubber. When the scrubber tips it empties, though enough water remains in the partioned of are to allow the bucket to tip back into place.
Since the piece of acrylic is not fixed, it requires enough algae to be growing on the mat to prevent all the water seeping under the partition when it tips. This results is insufficient water to cause the bucket to tip back.
When I started the scrubber I left the partition in place and let it run in the tipped position. Once enough algae was growing it started all by itself. Once it is running harvesting does not effect it. I hold the piece of acrylic inplace with 2 plastic clothes pegs which makes it easy to adjust one starting up.
If I was to do it again I would change a few things, though I have used it for 8 years and has been very reliable.
The main question you asked was the positioning of the mounting bar or rod. From memory once the bucket was built, through BFI (brute force and ignorance) I determined the point at which the weight was evenly distributed. Through sheer luck this has turned out to be the right spot.
I attached the rods to the sides of the bucket with Loctite 480 impact resistant glue, which luckily has not caused me a problem. In hindsight I should have built a mechanism that sat under the bucket. The rods sit in a Warex baring, both the rod and the baring have shown minimal ware over the 8 years.
the bucket is housed in a 24"x12"x20" glass tank, which also doubles as my sump. This way I lose out on the return surge into my tank, but at the time space contraints prevented me from placing the scrubber above the tank.

[LiquidShaneo]

caevan,

Any pics of your DIY ATS under your tank? I'd love to see some if you have them. BTW...your tank looks good. :)

In regards to using a 150 watt MV above your ATS unit: do you feel that using the 150 watt MV is better than the dual 55 watt PC's that Inland Aquatics' ATS units came standard with? What was your reason behind using the MV lights instead of PC's?

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[caevan]

I actually started with a 100w MH lamp. Mainly at the time it was cheaper an easier to source the ballast and bulb and reflector. When I moved house 6years ago I switch to a 150w bulb mainly because I misplaced the 100w gear and had a spare 150w lying around, so to get it going I used that and over the years I forgot to change it back. I didn't think it would matter as Dr. Adey gave the impression that a high light environment was condusive to algae growth though a 150w lamp most probably is overkill.
Last year the reflector I was using was getting to rusty, so I had to find something to replace it. In the end after much searching I had to settle on a 175w fitting. Power compacts, have only now become more common over here, though I would still have had to make my own fitting, something I may consider in the future.
The MH bulbs I use are rated at 4000K which make them a lot cheaper to buy, I was also told by Chris Limcaco at Aquatic Engineers they have a better spectrum for alagae growth.

[Fredfish]

caevan;

Thanks for the drawing.

I went to your site, very nice! That's an awesome pump site you have a link to.

I will probably try to mount the rod to the underside of the dump bucket.

I'm getting all excited about getting this up and running.

Fred.

[Mark]

as promised, here's a picture of the 38 gallon ATS reef:

[Mark]

I wanted to share this one as well :D:

[LiquidShaneo]

So how much are you feeding now compared to before, Mark? The tank looks good. :)

Shane

[Mark]

Thanks. It's still settling in, and some of the corals are new to the tank, as I tore down the reef in my office. I feed it whenever I think of it. So far, no ill effects. Usually, overfeeding results in an algae bloom. In this case, it's in the scrubber. IMO, the turf algae respond very quickly to nutrient spikes. Caulerpa never caught up as quickly as I'd like.

[caevan]

I finally got my act together and took a few photos of my ATS
http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images/scrubs1.jpg
http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images/scrubs2.jpg
http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images/scrubs3.jpg

[dragon0121]

Whoooaaa! That has to be the ugliest tank I've ever seen!!!! I love it! I've often felt that the caulerpa growing in my refugium doesn't respond to extra nutrients in the tank, hence cyano bouts. I would love to have something that looked like your tank to pull turf algea out of. Now if I only had the room. :rolleyes:

Only reefers would find the above tanks attractive! LOL!

[JasonD]

I'm a fan of the flow through aquaricare unit. I wouldn't set up a large tank without the unit. Bascially what it is is a flowthrough box with little deflectors on it to keep the water from just flowing straight through.

I'm still using a lifereef vs3-24 skimmer. I like the aquaricare unit because you can install it anywhere in your system. Mine is right above the sump. Mark at aquaricare is good to deal with if you can get ahold of him.

Would I use this system without a skimmer? No. But I like it because it zero's out my Nitrates phosphates ect.

Jason

[LiquidShaneo]

Jason,

Do you have any pics of the insides of that unit yet? :D

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[piercho]

Doing a little watts/in2 math, I figure at the most I need 75-100W HID lamp for an ATS with a 20"X20" algae mat with the bulb at ~10" from the mat. Does this sound adequit to those of you who have had success with this.

I have surmised from the preceding posts that >5K bulbs aren't required or desired for the mat. But how "low" can you go? 4000K? 3000? What is optimal for turf algae photosynthesis?

Thanks in advance. And thanks especially to Cavean who's pictures and drawings have been worth a thread-page of words.

[NaCl]

with just a refugium, the stuff took off great guns until it
experienced what seemed to have been nitrogen limitation.
my guess is that the DSB and the refugium caused the Macros
to basically stagnate growth wise.

i worry that an ATS would experience the same thing?

Something i wonder about also is that Cavean mentions
a Tunze skimmer in his processing of nutrients.

While i'm enamoured with the idea of being skimmerless-
and am skimmerless, it really hasn't worked for me in the
long term-10 months.

[caevan]

I should update my site, about a year ago I removed the Tunze skimmer, if anything I have noticed an overall improvement in the tank with it's removal.
One of the keys to the success of an ATS is harvesting of the turf. In my case I use micro algae and the mat is harvested every fortnight.
Dr. Adey point out in his book it is the new growth that is most efficient at nutrient removal

[LiquidShaneo]

I would say any bulb that is lower in kelvin would work just fine as the lower K bulbs put out more red light than the higher K bulbs. Plus it would be less expensive bulb-wise as low K bulbs are really inexpensive. If it were me, I'd stick somewhere around 3000 K to 4000 K... However, I have also been toying around w/ getting a LOA #9266 outdoor floodlight to try it out on a mocked up version of an ATS as well and according to the mfg it's 6500 K. I may opt for the MV or HPS lights tho as they are more of an industry standard bulb than the LOA model.

Shane (aka 'liquid')

[Flatlander]

My screen is 225sq. inches. Lit with a pair of 55watt PC,s

[Mark]

Doug,

Any news on your ATS?

[Flatlander]

Hi Mark; Still waiting for the claim:mad:. Its in the hands of the US postal service.

[Flatlander]

I have tired of waiting for the claim to be settled, so I am repairing the pan as best I can. I hope someday to recieve a new one, as my repar may well leak.

I have use an super glue type for acrilic. Repaired all the breaks, and going to do over them with silicon.

I am not going to use it on the tank now, because of a possible leak and a shortage of head room in its current position. I set up my 55 gal. tub for a sump again. Put about a 3inch sandbed in it. ATS will sit on top of it, and will still have room on the end for my skimmer until the screens are fully developed.

[Mark]

Hey Doug,

Glad to hear that you have it up and running. I'm sorry that you've had so many problems along the way. Hopefully, some good karma is in store and your tank will thrive even more with this new set up. Another suggestion is that I'm betting a good acrylic shop could replicate the box exactly if you let them use it as the model. If the dump bucket and light box are alright, then that would be all you would need. But I also understand that the thought of spending any additional money on an already expensive project is no fun. Be sure to take pics of the screen developing.:)

[Flatlander]

I may yet still recieve some compensation from the US postal service or a new box. They said it would be a couple months, after he got the claim finished.

Just the box was broke, and the dump chute. It was like putting a puzzle together. Also the tabs that hold the screen were all broken off:confused: . I put new ones there.

Dont know if I will get a seed screen from Inland, but will take lots of pics, as it develops.:D

[NaCl]

is there any consensus on the amount of time between 'dumps'
for a bucket?

mine current project is filling and emptying every 9-10seconds?
Could i hear from others as to what their fill/dump times are?

Many
many
thanks!!:D

[caevan]

Mine runs at about 1 dump every 10 to 12 seconds.

[cwa46]

I have been running at about 1 1/2 min. per cycle.

[Flatlander]

WELL, I fired it up last night. The power head feeding it, gives it about 30 sec. between dumps. Although its dumping into the sump, the spray & bubbles dont look very bad.

Not sure what will grow on the screen. Wish I had easy access to Inland for a seeded screen.

[caevan]

Though using a seeded screen should speed up things, not having access to seeded screens in Australia I have twice had to start the scrubber with a bare screen. It is suprising how quickly the algae starts to grow. Within a fortnight you should see things happening.

[Flatlander]

Thanks caevan, I sit watching, with camera in hand,:D , awaiting some growth.

By the way, I am running the 55 watt pc,s 24/7 for now. Would that be the correct way to start the growth or stay with the suggested 12 hour night cycle?

[Diatom2]

Doug~

Well there's one I haven't heard a reefer complaining about a lack of ability to grow micro algae. *lol*

Good luck with that thing buddy, you deserve it.

[caevan]

Doug, the current light cycle you have should be fine. Hopfully within a week you should see little wisps of algae forming on the matt. As the growth becomes lush you can slowly cut the period done to 12hrs RDP.
Let us know how you go.

[Flatlander]

Heh,heh, when you look at my post, it does look kinda funny:D

Thanks Caevan, wil update with pics soon.

[Flatlander]

Eric, you may move this thread to the main forum if you so wish.

I am still sitting here, camera in hand, waiting for algae.:D

[Flatlander]

We have some growth finally. Lots of red turf and some green sprouts appearing. Not sure, but looks like a pretty good turf algae to me. Whatcha think

[MchEdward]

sorry wrong thread

[caevan]

Doug,
Glag to see my guesstimate of a week was not far off the mark. I get a mixture of red and green turf algae. I would say predominantly red. My tangs would really go for the red stuff when I dropped a liitle into the main tank.
Won't be long before your first harvest.

[Flatlander]

Hi caevan; Yep, you were pretty close. Its now growing rapidly. I will try giving some to my baby sailfin. I think its soon time to shut down the Euroreef and see if the scrubber alone can handle the tank.

[Flatlander]

Hey guys, getting some type of "snot" algae growing over the turf. I scraped it twice now and it comes back.

Still running 24/7 as the turf is not vey established yet. Would this be part of the normal cycle?

[NaCl]

im also trying to establish my screen, my tank has a bunch
of pods on the sand etc, the other day i saw one in the ats,
does anyone have any secrets to keeping pods from the
ats and how much of a problem are they, will they hinder
algae growth?
Many, many thanks!!

[LiquidShaneo]

NaCl, read the thread. We discussed pods, etc, where they come from, how to get rid of them, what they do to the screen, etc. FWIW, you can't keep them from populating the screen. The only thing you can do is give your screen a freshwater dip every time you scrape it in order to remove the bulk of them.

Shane
liquid on #reefs, #reefcentral

[GreatBarrier52]

I thought that you want the Pods in your system. Or is it that you want the pods in your sand bed and not your ATS?

[Flatlander]

I gave mine a shot from the fresh water hose when scraping it. I dont see any in the scrubber, but more life in the sumps sandbed. I commented on the skimmerless thread in the main forum about all the life I am finding in my skimmer cup now.

GB, the pods are fine in the tank but eat the algae on the scrubber screen, that one is trying to cultivate for nutrient removal.

Eric, if you read this, I have a question. Did you try, or whats your opinion on, when its time to scrape, what would be the result of giving the screen a shake into the tank. Wondering if many of the pods would then fall in? Or perhaps to much loose algae would fall?

[gwrulzmylife]

we need to get this thread going again.

Anyone who has one please post pics.

I'm trying to DIY one but need more info.

Thanks in advance guys!

[reef-man_d-man]

I am looking into a toilet valve ATS I'll keep ya posted

[EricHugo]

Contact Morgan Lidster for more information....'www.inlandaquatics.com

[reef-man_d-man]

i talked with him a few months back, and am gonna again in a few weeks

[Flatlander]

After reading this thread again, as we are talking about scrubbing on a couple of different boards, I was noticing dump cycle times.

Does anyone know what the makers before or now, :rolleyes: , suggested for a proper cycle? I see some doing as much as 4 or 5 times/minute. Perhaps my once or twice per, was not enough water pass to handle my larger tanks and loads.

[EricHugo]

I don't think that aspect was properly thought out, or even decided on for any real reason. My opinion is that previous versions were way too infrequent and small and I think much larger and more frequent dumps would be much better.

[Flatlander]

Thanks Eric.
I cant increase the size of my dump, but can certainly increase the frequency. Perhaps instead of a Hagen 800 feed pump, I may experiment with a larger outside pump.

[caevan]

My scrubber was set to dump every 8 to 10 sec. The whole thing was driven by the water coming from the tank overflow.

[Flatlander]

Hi Caevan,
Long time. Still running the scrubber in your sump? I was thinking about 6 times per minute. Although my scrubber benefits the tank with the dump, I like the idea of running it over my sump, fed by one of the overflows.

[Cnidae]

I'm going to be resetting up a ATS. I have the smaller unit but I'm going to design one into the sump. I want to use T5 lighting instead of the PC's. Anyone got any suggestions for the T5's?

Thanks,
Damien

[Fredfish]

Eric. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on why a much larger dump is needed.

I thouight that Addey spent a lot of time determining the water velocity required to break the boundry layer around the algae strands to maximize nutrient and waste exchange.

I don't really know anything about plant/algae physiology, but I can't see that more frequent dumps would do any harm.

Fred.

[EricHugo]

I'm talking about effects in the tank. It might be ideal for the scrubber tray, but is pretty low inside the tank. Maybe if the sump were desigened to hold more water around the screen, it would/could kill two birds with one stone (not sure why I just used that expression...I hate it!)

[Fredfish]

Ahh. Makes sense now. It would be easy enough to make the tray deeper so you have more water per dump.

Fred.

[reef-man_d-man]

well you could also make it deeper and skinnier so that the same amout was dumped

[Flatlander]

Damien, I have never used T-5,s but my pc bulbs are 67K. I also experimented with GE Ultra Daylight 65K normal outputs and they seemed to have about the same growth effect as my pc,s.

So Eric, I now gather regarding the dump speed and amount of water volume, that your suggested increase, is for surge and current in the tank, and not a suggestion for better nutrient removal my the scrubber algae. Which I assume would be a side benefit anyways.

[caevan]

Originally posted by Flatlander
Hi Caevan,
Long time. Still running the scrubber in your sump? I was thinking about 6 times per minute. Although my scrubber benefits the tank with the dump, I like the idea of running it over my sump, fed by one of the overflows.

Doug
In 2002 I upgraded to a larger tank. The new tank is built around an Aquatic Engineers Eco-wheel, you get a larger scrubber area for a smaller foot print. The whole tank is driven by an air lift.

The scrubber wheel rotates at 2 to 4 rpm the wheel is weighted ( with a water compartment) which gives a surge into the tank at each revolution.

[EricHugo]

Doug: exactly.

[Flatlander]

Thanks Eric.

Yea, Caevan, I was reading your website after I posted. Looks nice. I have been following the thread in the Advanced forum, regarding an Eco-wheel set up.

[piercho]

Well, a couple of years back in THIS thread, I was asking "what does ATS stand for", and now I'm here to post pics of mine.:)
My 65G tank has 2 flow loops, around 20 GPM from an external air lift with an integrated 7G RCSD, and another 20 GPM from a Iwaki 40RLT sump return pump. When the RCSD fires, the tank level drops 1.5 inches, stopping the overflow for about 11 seconds. I'm using this action - the overflow stopping periodically - to "surge" and alga scrubber filter in the sump.

The construction of the AS is just 20" of 6" ABS pipe, bisected into a half cylinder. One end of the 1/2-cylinder is stopped completely. The other end is stopped except for a 1" hole at the bottom of the curve. The AS is set in the sump above the water line, a few degrees off horizontal, so the water pouring into it from the OF pipe (1.5") wants to drain towards the hole. The OF water is directed into the flow of the water trying to drain, creating a lot of turbulence in the AS container. When the RCSD fires, the OF stops, and AS drains completely. As the RCSD pumps down, the OF fills water into the AS faster than it can drain, filling it untill it overflows its sides. The RCSD fires about every 40 seconds.

Maybe pictures will help:
The AS starting to fill after draining (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75520&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500)
The AS filled to overflowing. The OF drains faster the the AS can. (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75523&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500)
The AS draining (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75524&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500)
The AS nearly drained (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75525&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500)
The AS removed for harvest (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75527&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500)
The AS after harvest (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75529&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500)

A 250W EYE DL bulb is used a few inches over the AS and sump. I clean the light fixture when I harvest the AS. Thanks for everyone's help way back when I first showed an interest. I hope that there are still a few of you out there tinkering with these things.

[matt & pam]

Howard,
Nice scrubber. How long does it take to regrow to the next harvest? Are you supplementing with any other form of filtration? Would you mind sharing a tank photo? Thanks.

matt

[piercho]

How long does it take to regrow to the next harvest? The AS is new and I haven't developed a harvest routine. Once the turf showed up, it took less than 2 weeks to this harvest, so I'd guess twice monthly.Are you supplementing with any other form of filtration? Yes I feed a GAC filter the output of an air powered, 6' CC skimmer. The flow rate is less than 1 gallon a minute. I use about 6 heaping tablespoons a GAC replaced weekly. No mechanical filters except the CC skimmer. No chemical media except the GAC. There is also Chaeto, Caulerpa, and Sargassum in the sump, along with Anthellia and some Zoanthids. These were my main export up to now.Would you mind sharing a tank photo? Here are 3. The tank is supposed to be a lagoon with seagrass and sand-associated alga abuting a patch reef of (mostly) stony coral and Tridacna. The lighting is a single 250W daylight MH and a single 96W blue PC. The visible 2" piping are the outlet and inlet from the lift/RCSD loop. The 3/4" fittings are the sump returns from the 40RLT.
Front right side of tank (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75666&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500)
Front middle of tank (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75665&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500)
Front left side of tank (http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75664&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500)

[MCsaxmaster]

Piercho,

Great looking tank. One of the finnest I've seen :D. While there is something to be said for tanks with all of the rarest, most expensive corals available, there is also something to be said for reef tanks that look reminiscent of the real thing. I enjoy the former, but I prefer the latter. As such, I really enjoy your patch reef tank.

Best,

-Chris

[piercho]

Chris,
the words are kind but I know it's not that great. It's usually "fuller" with Halimeda but I've been hand-harvesting all the Halimeda I see to try and give the Uddotea and Penicillus a chance to get established. The Halodule seagrass just holds its ground but the Syringodium does well. Most of the visible algae colonies on the rock collapsed after the high flow vegetative filter got plumbed and I began persistently running the skimmer. This has left the rock rather bare for my taste but at least free from Derbesia and similar pests. As far as coral, I'm experimenting with those I think are found - at least occasionally - in back-reef areas to see how they respond to my husbandry. In a later tank I'd like to have a large expanse of grassbed, with just a few corals selected from the current ones clustered in a single location near the bottom. Then they can have years to grow and establish a natural looking bomme, instead of this menagerie stuck here and there. But I'm still learning the basics and this tank has been a good experiment.

As far as abandoning the skimmer and GAC now that the scrubber is up, I don't think so. I also do large exchanges of water (50%) quarterly using local NSW, which is another large departure from what Adey recommends (and just about everyone else). I've arrived at the conclusion that its better to form my own goals and try to evolve the husbandry to reach them rather than to emulate someone else. Not that I am knocking, in any way, anyone who wants to operate a more (or less) "natural" tank.

[gwrulzmylife]

<quote>As far as abandoning the skimmer and GAC now that the scrubber is up, I don't think so. I also do large exchanges of water (50%) quarterly using local NSW, which is another large departure from what Adey recommends (and just about everyone else). I've arrived at the conclusion that its better to form my own goals and try to evolve the husbandry to reach them rather than to emulate someone else. Not that I am knocking, in any way, anyone who wants to operate a more (or less) "natural" tank.<Quote>

[gwrulzmylife]

oops, sorry, was trying to post a quote and messed it up.

[matt & pam]

Howard,
Are you still operating the tank with the ATS? Would you mind sharing pics? Thanks.

Matt

[UrbanSage]

What is turf algae? Where do you obtain it?

[matt & pam]

You can get a small screen sample coated in turf algae from inland aquatics. the definitive book on turf algae and scrubbers is "DYNAMIC AQUARIA: Building and Restoring Living Ecosystems". FYI...

Matt

[UrbanSage]

Thanks, this is something I have thought about pursuing for quite a while now without digging into the topic.

[Serioussnaps]

Wow this was dug up before I was ever around RC. Anyways, does anyone have pics of their actualy display using the ATS without the skimmer?

The results mean everything!

[caevan]

This is my tank it has been running since February 2002 using an Ecowheel algal scrubber.

http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images4/fulltank.jpg

[matt & pam]

Caevan,

Nice display

How much supplemental flow are you adding to the tank in addition to the eco-wheel? Have you experienced any algae outbreaks within the display since using the eco-wheel?

Thanks.

Matt

[caevan]

Due to the specific design of the Ecowheel system, the aquarium was designed from the start to run with the eco wheel. I have never had any outbreaks of algae. I have had recently some cyano. Though I attribute that to the amount I feed my anemones. I am effectively adding 10 dead fish each the size of a clown fish to the aquarium each week when I feed the anemones.

[matt & pam]

How often are you able to harvest from your eco-wheel? Does your eco-wheel use the screen material wrapped around the fins, or do you just have the fins without screening?

[caevan]

My Eco-wheel came from the original designer, it uses the mat covering the fins. I harvest the algae fortnightly, this coincides with a water change, the loose algae that does not get vacuumed up ends up floating in the water in the eco-wheel tank, by removing this water I limit how much algae ends up in the display. Any algae that ends up in the display is eaten quickly by the tangs.
I recently did some major maintenance on the Rco-wheel I had noticed a couple of years ago that the wheel bearings were wearing, so I organized replacements through Chris Limcaco at www.algaewheel.com.
Here are some images you might find interesting.

Here are the old bearings next to the new

http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images4/bearings.jpg

The old and the new side plates

http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images4/side.jpg

The wheel
http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images4/wheel.jpg

The bioballs in the wheel tank
http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images4/bioballs.jpg

One of the plates from the wheel tank
http://www.greatsagehabibi.com/aquaria/images4/plate.jpg

[matt & pam]

Wow. Cool pics. Probably not that many that would appreciate what your showing but it's facinating to me. I avoided use of the bioballs b/c Brett (putawaywet) suggested they were contributing to a nuisant nitrate issue in his tank. I have the one plate one the bottom in use, but the others sit unused in the shop. The bearings on my wheel are not like yours, I essentially have a rod that runs through the wheel, and sits in teflon like holders that are actually part of the acrylic box. I do not have a cage surrounding my eco-wheel like your model.

I have been using regular nylon screen around my wheel for the past 6-8 months, and I enjoy the easier removal of algae during harvest. However regular nylon screen does not last. I would like to find material that is more stout as yours looks.

I assume you terminally scraped your screens in this picture? In other words, do you leave quite a bit more algae on your screens or do you aggressively remove most of the algae? Would you mind estimating how much algae you remove per harvest? I usually pull off at least 2 packed cups of algae each time. Is the algae primarily a red turf as mine has become? How often do you replace your lights above the eco-wheel?

I usually don't worry about the algae that escapes back into my tank during harvest, I have a rabbitfish and 2 tangs that feast on the scraps.

Matt

[caevan]

The new plates I received have the Teflon like holders built into the plate.
The material surrounding the wheel is similar to a product we have locally called gutter guard. If you contact Chris at Algaewheel he should be able to tell you where to buy it from in the US.

In the picture the wheel had been removed from the tank so I was able to clean it quite aggressively. Normally I scrape back to the surface of the mat leaving remnants behind in the holes. Two cups of algae sounds about right. I scrape a section at a time and vacuum the loose algae with a small 12V vacuum cleaner.

I went with less Bioballs this time, I have not had a nitrate problem with this tank, though I did feel the bioballs overtime were teapping a lot of detritus and became a home as you can see for many organisms. Over time the bioballs became heavy and eventually they all stat on the bottom plate, my main concern was it may impact on the overall flow through the tank.
The algae is primarily red turf algae which the tangs seem to really like. Though the center section which has no screen get a green turf algae, as well as a lot of coraline. In one section of the mat where the algae is the thickest I also get a type of algae which looks like a turf but each fillement looks like it contains water, much like valonia, though it is not valonia.

I am currently using a 4300K 150W MH lamp which I change yearly. The lamp is turned off for 1 hour during the day, I read in one of the MH lamp manufacturers instructions that is was a good idea to do that if the lamp was run continuously.

[piercho]

UV-stabilized Polyethelene Screen. (http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/3139) This is similar to what's in the picture. I used the 3/16" mesh grid tubes (http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8559) for pump intake screens and it lasted years with no signs of degrading. I used to scrub it with a wire brush and muriatic acid to clean the critters off every 4 weeks so IME tough stuff.

[piercho]

I was using the Venture 150W 6000K DE (http://www.venturelighting.com/LampsDataSheets/DoubleEnded/29963.pdf) in a PFO Mini Pendant (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~PF2673.html) over my filter before I shut down my tank and this packs a pretty tight punch: high PAR, high lumens/watt, tightly focused beam. Plus the glass was WAY easier to clean than an open PC or MH fixture over a filter with lots of popping bubbles. The EYE DL 150W 6500K (http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=33) is a nearly identical bulb but I knew someone who could get me the Ventures at a better price. Hard to go wrong with EYE bulbs though, very consistent product IME and probably worth the extra money.

[matt & pam]

Too bad they don't sell the stuff in smaller amounts. 50' is a bit of an excess for me.

[matt & pam]

I use two 96 watt PC quad bulbs, 6700K. It's what came with the eco-wheel. There isn't much spray on the bulbs, b/c there is an acrylic top to the eco-wheel that prevents spray getting on the lights.

I originally thought I could let these run until they burned out, so what if the color drifted down? Perhaps they would become more effective as they aged. I went ahead and recently changed mine - I was hoping I might see a shift in the algae growing from a red turf to a green turf. We'll see if over the next few months whether there any increase in green turf results.

[caevan]

Most scrubbers I have seen have red turf algae with maybe a bit of green. I do not think ot matters with regards to nutrient uptake.

[spazthecat]

Great thread. I'm thinking of putting an ATS in my sump and had a question.

My sump is an old 30 gallon tank and is in the basement of my house. I was thinking I could put a wheel type scrubber (like the eco-wheel system) in my sump. Has anyone built anything like this before? What did you use as the wheel? Mounting shouldn't be hard and I could split off the main tank return to turn the wheel but I'm having a little trouble coming up with what to use for the wheel.

I was thinking of buying a couple of the largest hamster wheels I could find and covering them with nylon mesh. Opinions?

Thanks,

Andy

[SantaMonica]

Flatlander saw this already, but for those that have not, here is a (basically free) DIY turf filter I made in a bucket... brought N and P to zero in a week:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12931276#post12931276

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/578/148489CleanedAndReady.JPG