Excess C02 in home?

[melev]

Hi Randy,

Remember I told you my tanks have been suffering from lowered pH for some time now, although last year it wasn't a problem? Spring and fall, pH stays nicely around 8.3 when I can open doors and windows, but not in winter or summer (Texas weather is less than mild at those times).

3 weeks ago we pumped a bunch of new insulation into the attic, covering up the 30 year old insulation. Pretty much buried all the rafters. However, when it was pumped near my HVAC furnace, a ton of this stuff fell into the hallway (when I opened the door). It turns out when they replaced my furnace last year, the left a 8" x 30" gap. My guess is that the trapped air in the attic has been coming into the house, depleting oxygen or increasing CO2 possibly. Would you agree that this might have been part of the problem, or did I just fix my electric bill but not the tanks? :lol:

The pH in the tanks hits around 8.15 without kalk during the peak lighting period. It was running at 7.85 to 7.9 before.

I'm sure my heavily stocked tanks don't help. ;)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My guess is that the trapped air in the attic has been coming into the house, depleting oxygen or increasing CO2 possibly. Would you agree that this might have been part of the problem, or did I just fix my electric bill but not the tanks?

How would the air in the attic get low in O2 or high in CO2? Mice? :D

[Boomer]

:rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

Shame on you for pickin' on Marc. Are you and the wife today tipping the bottle :D

Marc, CO2 is heavier than O2, it would sink unless the attic was 100 % air tight and I don't think so :D It may have been squrirels, as their respiration rate is much greater than mice or that new furnace is expelling less CO2 and using less O2


It turns out when they replaced my furnace last year, the left a 8" x 30" gap.

Who are they, I don't want them working on my house ;)

[melev]

What do I know? I was thinking about the trapped heat in the attic space would be condusive to oxygen levels dropping or at least elevated CO2 levels?

I still can't explain the lowered pH in my tanks, nor the fact that they are starting to rise up again finally. Especailly since we pretty much try to keep the house sealed with ~100F days.

[melev]

Boomer, I don't know who "they" are now. I'd have to dig up the receipts. Basically, Home Depot had a vendor in store that offered to handle A/C needs, and I showed some interest. About two months later, they called me up again with a great price so I went for it. But the gap up there was unknown to me until I did the recent insulation job.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Keeping the house sealed is exactly the wrong approach. As the song says, "every breath you take...." :D

Anyway, you're breathing out CO2, and in a closed home it builds up. Most folks do see the problem worst in winter and summer (if they air condition). Some folks with leaky old homes like me never see a problem (except in heating bills :D ).

Here's an article that describes CO2 buildup:

Indoor CO2 Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/short.htm

[Boomer]

Marc

I don't know what happened but at higher temps both O2 and CO2 drop as they are a function of temp.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry, Marc. I hope we didn't upset you with the mice and squirrel talk. Boomer was feeling bad about it. :(

[melev]

No - no - no. Not at all. As you know, I've got a decent sense of humor. I'd just like to resolve the low pH I've been encountering, and I really don't like the kalkwasser solution.

I need to go read your article now, but it seems reasonable in a heavily populated tank that O2 is consumed more rapidly vs a lightly stocked tank. So with the 02 being used, C02 must be building up and thus the pH is lower.

I tried pumping air from an airpump in my garage into the intake of my Aqua C EV-200 for about a month, but my guess is that C02 is greater in the hot garage because removing that from my tank seemed to allow pH to rise up a little bit further in my 55g reef.

I wonder how long a small bottle of medical grade oxygen would last. ;)

[melev]

Okay, now you've got me wanting to see about bringing in fresh air via my HVAC system. I don't know how that is done, nor if my system even has that already incorporated.

My home is all electric, brick on a slab foundation. The windows are leaky, especially when the winter's northern winds kick up. Then they howl. :rolleyes:

I don't own a Radon Detector, but just for kicks do you know if that affects CO2 levels as well? I need to stop breathing so my fish can!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It isn't the added O2 that's important for pH, although O2 is important for for other reasons. It is just the excess or deficiency of CO2 that is important for pH. If you bubbled pure nitrogen gase the pH would rise (although O2 would drop and that would not be a good plan :D ).

Any gas appliances, llike a gas stove?

[melev]

No, my home is all electric.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, then you just have to stop breathing so hard. :D

[melev]

It's gotta be Jake, my cocker spaniel!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know how that is. We've got a golden retriever. :)

[wasp9166]

Originally posted by melev
The windows are leaky, especially when the winter's northern winds kick up. Then they howl. :rolleyes:



just wondering how cold the winter winds get in fort worth:D

[melev]

Well, it isn't like the East Coast, so I know you got us beat. We only get about 24 to 48 hours of snow a year, if that. However, Dalla / Ft Worth have been labeled the "hail capitals" of the U.S.

We can get down to the teens though.

[wasp9166]

wow, i had no idea, the teens?????? in texas

[melev]

It happens. We get freezes, but nothing like yours. People here tend to have no idea how to drive on the stuff, unfortunately. We are more used to hot and humid. ;)

[melev]

Randy, I'm baking me some baking powder. After all, that's its name. ;)

I'm going to use that for now to help push up my pH each day. :(

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Baking soda, I hope. Baking powder is loaded with phosphate. :D

Watch that the alkalinity does not get too high.

[melev]

The Arm & Hammer Baking Soda, yes. (Man, I hate posting stupid mistakes like that!)

For some reason, I thought this would control pH only, and leave Alk and Ca out of the equation. :(

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nope, it will boost alkalinity.

There is nothing that you can add to an aquarium to raise pH that will not also raise alkalinity. That's just a fact of life.

Llimewater is good becuase it doesn't raise alkalinity RELATIVE to calcium (since it adds both).

[melev]

Well, you never tell me what I really want to hear. Do I have to pay you to get an "yes" answer? ;)

I just dumped in my powder and pH is up on both tanks. :eek: I did not dose B-Ionic last night, because alk and Ca were up in my 29g. However, the 55g uses it up so I did dose that tank.
http://www.melevsreef.com/parms.html

Currently, 29g pH is 8.03
55g pH is 8.15

Both were at 7.89 and 7.88 at 2:45 in the afternoon (4 hours into the lighting period)

[Boomer]

Marc, take a breath before up pass out, it is Ok to do that once in awhile, even with high room air CO2 :D

[wasp9166]

whats the difference between team rc and rc staff? sorry for interrupting

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are many levels of management at Reef Central:

John Link is the owner
Administrators are the next level. I think there are 2 plus john (Doug and GregT).
Staff are next. Maybe a dozen of us.
Moderators are next. Maybe another dozen.

Here are all of the above: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showgroups.php

Each of the above groups has certain jobs and powers, generally declining from the top.

Team RC is a group of hobbysits that help the site in a lot of ways, but do not have the power to move thread, ban folks, etc.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do I have to pay you to get an "yes" answer?

You didn't know that was the secret to this forum?

I'll send you my paypal number. :D

[melev]

I think I've decided to be offended by you and Boomer after all. :D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, you'll still need to pay, even so. :D

[melev]

I'll offer you a perfectly worthless Salifert pH kit if you like. ;)

[Boomer]

Sorry Marc, and I know I speak for Randy also, but that is a no-deal, we deal strickly on a cash bases only :D We also don't need a pH test kit, when we both have very expensive pH meters ;)

I think I've decided to be offended by you and Boomer after all.

It won't be the first time or the last time but I'm way ahead of Randy, on this issue of "offending" :lol:

[reefkeeps]

Marc did you ever get past this issue?

My Tank hit 78.6 this morning, I took out a cup and airated it for 2 hours and it hit 8.07.

After the lights came on I the tank PH was 8.04, I took a cup OUTSIDE and airated it for 8.16.

I'm assuming the following;

1. I need more airation
2. I have excess C02 in the house

Would you guys agree? Does a cheap Co2 monitor exsist? I was thinking of venting fresh air into the cabnet, currently it vents out of the cabnet to the outside.

[melev]

You know, it hasn't been an issue, but I've been keeping my fish room open to the 'fresh' air in the garage (never used for parking) during the day time. However, once summer hits and the A/C is on all the time, the numbers may drop.

I changed the way I'm running my calcium reactor, so there is a chance that the increased effluent is adding more alkalinity to the water. I used to drip effleunt, but now it is a steady trickle/flow. Higher alk means higher pH. As of right now, the pH is 8.19 in my reef, and the lights turn off in about 1.5 hours.

[reefkeeps]

I thought the slower the effluent Drip the higher the alkalinity and the lower the PH. Co2 saturation would be higher

The faster the drip the higher the PH (of the effluent) but the lower alkalinity.

Am I wrong?

[melev]

Due to the slowness of my effluent drip, I surely wasn't adding much alkalinity at all. Keep in mind, my media was saturated with PO4 (2.0), so when I cleaned it out and set it up differently, I also increased the output and this has worked well for the past 2 months.

Once summer hits, I'll know more about my pH levels. You can check out my paramaters page to see the numbers from the beginning until now if you are interested. It is at the top of the Hidden Treasure page.

[reefkeeps]

Thanks Marc, what is you BPM set at now?

[melev]

Is that bubbles per minute? 180. 3 per second. I think my effluent is around 90ml per minute, but that varies.

[reefkeeps]

WOW, it's like a fire hose! Didn't know you could do it that fast, I guess you must have the bubble count for CO2 wide open. What is the PH on the effluent?

Do you know others than have it open like that? I like the idea my concern was it would just sent Co2 back into the tank before the media could melt.

[melev]

It honestly isn't that much. I'll go shoot a brief video for you.

[melev]

http://www.melevsreef.com/video/ca_reactor.wmv

[reefkeeps]

Nice video! That's alot more flow than mine, I'm at about 45ml a minute, is the tall reactor your calcium reactor?

Looked like a lot of flow inside the reactor as well, is that from the feedpump or the recirculation pump? Also is that ARM media?

I like you effluent box, I tried to make one, all the proof I needed to know I should use tools =) You could have built a tank with the amount of acrylic I used.

[melev]

Yes, the tall thing is a LifeReef Calcium Reactor. I don't use the bubble counter on the reactor, only the one on the regulator. It uses a Mag 7 for the recirculating pump, I think. And yes, it is ARM media. What you are seeing is a disk rotating at the top of the reactor due to the flow, and it keeps the media from rising up and into the output (effluent) tubing.

The little box was just made a few days ago. Before that, it was a red beer cup. My club's members are giving me a hard time about the cup's removal. ;) Here's a couple more pictures of it.

http://melevsreef.com/pics/06/02/drip_box1.jpg

http://melevsreef.com/pics/06/02/drip_box2.jpg

I drilled out the small rigid tubing so that it could flow out more quickly. The hole is 3/16", which was how large the tubing was. The inner diameter was too restrictive, so I drilled it out and now the effluent flows out the hole, down the front of the box and into the output side of the bubble trap of the sump.

I should test the levels in my tank tomorrow.

[reefkeeps]

Yeah I held back on commenting on your beer cup as well =).

[melev]

http://melevsreef.com/g/shakeit.gif

;)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does a cheap Co2 monitor exsist?

No, there isn't really a cheap way.

In addition to fresher air, limewater is another good way to raise pH. :)

[steve the plumb]

whats the temp in your attic compared to th rest of your house.Is your furnace forced air (wich it sounds like) you then have vents in the home,do you have a air exchanger in the house.When you insulated the attic did you block the open trusts at the end of your roof(I forget the proper term stupid me)House has to breath temp in the attic should be same as home if not sligthly cooler.

[reefkeeps]

I'm already using limewater for all topoff, I'm thinking about installing some more fans to increase the top off need, at this point 4 gallons a day of limewater gets pumped into the tank.

A shame about the Co2 monitor costs. I left a cup of the airated water next to the sump over night, the tank was 7.90 and that cup of water was 8.04. I'm guess the calcium reactor is large part of the problem.

Marc What is the PH on your effluent?

[reverendmaynard]

Sorry to hijack but...

What is the advantage of using a calc reactor (that lowers PH, right?) when using limewater or a 2 part can raise the PH? I mean if you're suffering form low PH, and you have a device on your tank that lowers PH, and there are alternatives that don't...?

[reefkeeps]

Yes alternatives but they require more work and more $. THe calcium reactor keeps my calcium high, the limewater does that as well.

The limewater has an added benifit that it also counter act the low PH.

[CaptainCoral]

I have excess co2 issues as well here. I just made a batch of Randy's new two part to be used in addition to nightime kalkwasser (on peristaltic pump with timer). Monitored with American Marine PinPoint.

[melev]

The effuent runs between 6.5 and 6.8 typically, reefkeeps. To raise the pH of the effluent, you can have it pour through more of the ARM product, as it will burn off any excess CO2 coming out of the reactor.

Many people run a Calcium Reactor and drip Kalkwasser as well. If I end up dripping kalk myself, it will be controlled to simply drip - not replace top off water.

You mentioned you're adding 4g of kalkwasser a day. That sounds like a lot to me, but maybe your tank has a heavy bioload. How much kalk powder do you add per gallon of RO/DI?

What does the surface of your tank look like? Clean, sparkling, and ripping? Smooth and calm? Oily patches here and there? Surely you are running a sump, correct? Water pouring over the overflows mixes with air and dumps into the sump should help keep the oxygen levels pretty good.

Some people have fresh air going into skimmer to raise pH. In my case, I'd have to connect some PVC in the attic going out to the eaves, and possibly a pump to push outdoor air into the PVC. Then I could attach the venturi hoses from the Euro-Reef to the PVC. It just isn't an ideal option at this point.

[reefkeeps]

The surface is ripping, two 6100's hitting each other. When the pumps are off I sometimes see small patches (what does that mean?)

I don't mix the Kalk power manually so I have no way of knowing the amount of power used. I use a Kalc reactor that takes care of the mixing for me.

Bio load is very high, I can't say it's not!

I use a two stage Calcium reactor as well, the first stage holds 12 pounds, the second holds 20 pounds.

Yes I am running a sump (it's too small IMHO)

I'm considering your last suggestion but I'm feeling really lazy!

Do you ever sleep?

[moumda]

I had the same problem and solved it the same way (outside air for skimmer air and more kalk mix in my makeup water) with 1 addition. I built a rack with a couple of 4' shop lites and got a bunch of cheap house plants. They seem to have helped although I have no idea how much.

[melev]

Yes, I sleep. Do you? ;)

[reefkeeps]

Ok, I ran a 25 foot flexible 1/2 inch tube to the outside, then added two air connections to the inside end and capped it. I then hooked the bottom one to the skimmer air line and the top one to my ozone generator.

I'll let you know the results...

That's phase one...

Phase two

4 inch duck feeding outside air into the cabinet, I already have a 4 inch duck pushing air outside, so I am assuming that this will vent out Co2 enriched air and replace it with outside ambient air.

Marc...Sometimes =)

[melev]

quack quack quack quack. :lol:

[reefkeeps]

:uzi:

Ok Duct already!

[sidjam]

is the larger dia. tubing needed to run fresh air to a skimmer? it will be about 20ft. through the attic.

[CaptainCoral]

I've found smaller diameter's keep the waterfowl out. :lmao:

[reefkeeps]

To be honest I don't know, but I figured I may add another skimmer in the future so I didn't want to do it twice.


Too Funny Capt!

[Opcn]

As your tank matures the bacteria living on and in the rock get better at breaking down food androck as they go, raising your pH.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As your tank matures the bacteria living on and in the rock get better at breaking down food androck as they go, raising your pH.

Why would that raise pH? Seems like it would lower pH, IMO, as CO2 is produced.

[melev]

Randy, I predict within the next 25 days, you'll hit 40,000 posts. ;)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, that is likely, if I don't get too tired first. :D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, I predict within the next 25 days, you'll hit 40,000 posts.

Made it today. 19 days. :)

[melev]

Dang! I was off by 6 days?! I would say you are the <b>official</b> post whore of RC. :D

[DrBDC]

I still want to see the 4 inch duck!

[CaptainCoral]

I want to see a duck in a 4" duct trying to get at someones damsels. ;)

But, I'm tired of waterfowl congesting traffic on the roads around here, so I'm somewhat jaded in waterfowl ecology, and anyone in a serious state of mind, should dissregard any of my cynical comments. Or, it may just be that I'm hungry, and need a midnight snack. :) It's a good thing fish don' t slow traffic like geese do, or I'd likely be eyeballing my tangs. :eek1:

[mille239]

Hey reefkeeps: how were the results? did running the air from outside to your skimmer help? please update and let us know!!