Are you prepared for emergencies?

[Tech Diver]

In speaking with many recreational divers and discussing course content with instructors I found it interesting how many people have neither been taught nor have pondered what to do in emergency situations. This thread is not meant to tell anyone the one-and-only way to be prepared, but is intended to generate some good constructive discussion on various emergencies. For example:

Unlike in training videos, where an out-of-air diver calmly makes a gesture across the neck, real-life gas emergencies usually entail a diver in total panic, ripping your regulator right out of your mouth. Even after grabbing your reg, the diver will usually still be in panic and might bolt for the surface. Will you be able to quickly and calmly find your backup reg? Do you know how to bring a panic-stricken diver under control?...(yes, there is an effective way). Do you practice donating a regulator on a regular basis?

What if you surface and the boat is gone. Do you have an inflatable surface marker? Is it large enough to be seen and does it have a reflector that can be detected by radar? If it gets dark, do you have a light by which to signal a passing boat?

If you get entangled in fishing line or in a net, do you or your buddy have a pair of shears or knife to free yourself?

What if your inflator fails open and you begin to rise. Have you practiced disconnecting the Schraeder valve while simultaneously dumping gas?

What if your inflator fails closed and you begin to sink. Have you practiced inflating your BC or wings orally without resorting to dropping your weights (which can get you into more trouble)?

If you loose your mask will you be able to read your gauges to do your deco or safety stop? Do you carry a backup mask?

Do you plan your gas usage by using the rule-of-thirds? Do you keep track of the gas usage of your team members?

[gregmoeck]

I almost died in Roatan Honduras one night. I got sick, decided to turn back. We were 60-40 feet on a wall, shore diving, I was leading a group of 7 people including myself. I got dizzy, decided I was going back by myself. I'm totally cool diving solo, so I told someone and took off back around the walls to the sand which would lead me back to the shore. Half way I got all freaked out and started to panic. I was tangled in all of my gear as I tried to deflate my BC. I was hypervenalating, reaching the surface fast because my lungs were full... I couldnt get my deflator in my hand, I could feel my heart jumping out of my chest... I finally got it together and reached the sand at 20 feet deppth. I laid down in the sand and chilled out. I was safe but let me tell ya, getting dizzy and everything at depth changed my mind about diving. It's freakin dangerous. Now I never go below 40-50 feet, even on my latest trip to the cayman dive lodge. I realize it's the last 10 feet that is the most dangerous so why not go 100 feet? Well, I just feel better at 40 :)

[luminary]

In my recent trip down to Dominica, there were two situations that happened that could have ended badly.

The first was purely an accident. It could have been avoided, but not by my control. I was swimming along peacefully stopping here and there to take some photos when all of a sudden, BAM!, I got kicked in the side of my head, knocked my regulator out of my mouth and my mask off of my head. Not a good thing in 90' of water! Thankfully I'm very comfortable with and without my gear and I was able to recover.

The other incident had the capacity to be much more serious. The dive profile was to make a big circle out from the boat and around the reef starting at about 70' down.. I had my camera gear and my wife was diving with her video gear. About 25 minutes into the dive, in about 35' of water, I noticed her having a lot of trouble staying down. I swam over to her and held on to a rock and her to let her calm down and deflate her BCD. At this point, we're not sure what happened, but I think she was starting to panic and pressed her inflator instead of the deflator because her BCD inflated fully. Not good. After that, things began to spiral downhill. She paniced even more started jerking around. Some of the wires from her lights got tangled and pulled out the inflator hose to her BCD.

At this point she was about ready to bolt to the surface (my arms hurt for several days from holding her down). I made her drop her video gear, plugged her hose back in and calmed her down a bit. We still couldn't get her BCD deflated, mainly because she was still freaked out and I couldn't hold her, hold the rock and deflate her gear all at the same time. After some consideration and a review of my guages and the situation at hand I decided that we needed to ascend, even though it would be fast and would be an emergency ascent (at this point we were in less than 30' of water).

There are a couple of lessons that I learned from this (and hopefully she did too, we did "debrief" afterwards with the divemaster).

1. She needs to be a bit more comfortable with her gear. She completely forgot about the lower back deflator which would have corrected the situation before it got out of hand.

2. Her video gear is not more important than her safety. She was too focused on it once things started getting bad. Were this to happen again, I'd either clip her gear off onto my harness, or just leave it on the bottom and retrieve it after safely surfacing her.

3. It didn't occur to me until we were at the surface to use my knife to puncture her BCD. In retrospect, I think what I did was still the best option, but were this to happen in deeper water or in a more dangerous profile, I would not hesitate.

4. We had been diving 32% EAN on all of our dives. However, we had basically been diving air profiles since we were the only Nitrox divers on the trip and we basically stuck with the group. I can't tell for sure, but I'm pretty convinced that the additional safety factors involved in the higher mix was influential in not having any injuries.

5. It would have been better to leave her inflator hose disconnected after it was pulled out. There was already some problem with the BCD being too inflated. At the time, we did not know if it was user error or a problem with the equipment. If it was the equipment, reconnecting it was the wrong thing to do. However, I would not have been able to explain this to her while she was panicing underwater, so even if it was technically the better thing to do, reconnecting it was important in stabilizing the situation.

I can't stress how important the after dive discussions, both with ourselves and several other divemasters and instructors was.

[gregmoeck]

Wow, Great Lessons. Thanks for sharing your stories. I agree, regulator knocked out at 90 feet could be bad. I'm almost convinced regulators should be strapped on somehow like a mask. This would be handy if you passed out, at least you could breath.

[Paul B]

I do most of my diving in New York near the city. Our visability is usually measured in inches and rarely reaches four feet. I think most divers who usually dive in pristine water would panic here. On one of my Caribbean dives when my daughter was getting certified the instructor surfaced immediately obviousely frightened because he said there was no visability when I could clearly see him at thirty feet down. We have to do everything by feel and were 1/4" wet suits which limits turning your neck. I believe that if you can dive here, you can dive anywhere with no fear and be very competent in clear water. I myself have a couple of hundred dives in tropical water but the real diving is here. Hand signals are useless here so we bang on the tank, if you dive with a buddy, he is tied to you with a line, if he is not tied to you , you are diving alone.
Obviousley, we do not dive here to look at the beautiful fish, we dive for lobsters and there are 200 shipwercks around Long Island and because of the visability most of the stuff is still on them. We do often get stuck in fishing line and must use a knife or take off your tank, we also swim into large pipes or ship boilers without realizing it. When you stop swimming, the mud overtakes you so that 10" of visability becomes zero.
I do dive with an inflatable surface buoy. If the boat disappears, my wife is in trouble, it's my boat.
Paul

[maractwin]

Here's something that happened to me on my last dive trip, and illustrates why I always carry a snorkel no matter what certain people may say about them. And now I always carry a safety sausage too.

We were boat diving in the Bahamas, on a slope on the exposed side of the island. The boat anchored in about 60' of water. When we entered the water was moderately calm and there wasn't much current, so the plan was to go out and back along the slope. There were about 10 of us in the group, all with at least intermediate skills, a local divemaster and an instructor who traveled with us.

At the end of the dive the boat was visible above us as we made our ascent. However, the current had picked up near the surface, undetectable on the reef. By the time myself and 3 other divers realized we were caught in this current, it was too late to reach the boat. The other divers used the anchor line for their safety stop. Given that we had just completed a 90 foot dive and the amount of air we had, we completed our safety stop and surfaced rather than descend below the current to try to make it back to the boat. We were fine, but ended up at least a quarter mile from the boat in what was now somewhat choppy water. The boat had to wait for all of the other divers to return before coming to get us, so we floated and continued to be washed further away.

I may have had enough air for the wait, but it would have been close. But I pulled my fold-up snorkel from my pocket and was able to wait without worrying so much about the waves passing over our heads. It was only after the boat did come to pick us up that we found out that the dive master and instructor were really worried about us. We were in exposed rough water a long way from any boat and they had seen sharks on the surface (which we hadn't noticed).

In the post-dive de-briefing, we were reassured to learn that we had pretty much done everything as we should. Two of the divers did not have snorkels and had to pay careful attention to the waves as we waited. And none of us had a safety sausage. While our boat knew where we were, if there had been other boats in the area, they would not have been able to see us.

Luckily, that's the worst problem I've ever had while diving. And I hope to keep it that way.

-Mark

[Tech Diver]

In anticipation of a drifting-off scenario I always carry two bright orange floatation devices: an open circuit marker buoy for drifting decompression and a six-foot closed circuit signal buoy with SOLAS radar/light reflector tape. I also carry an 18w HID canister light as well as a two backup lights (one bungied to each harness strap). The lights are primary for shipwreck penetration but I have them with me at all times in the event that I become stranded in the water during the night. During the Winter here in Massachusetts, it is quite common for us to have days when the current is 2 or 3 kts so it is wise to be prepared.

[Tech Diver]

If anyone has suggestions or tricks they have learned from their experiences please feel free to share them.

For example LUMINARY describes getting a reg knocked out of the mouth. A simple piece of bungie cord called a necklace is what I use to keep my backup reg dangling around my neck. An illustration of what I describe can be seen at:http://www.northeastdir.com/images/pages/necklaceregfar.htm

In another post GREGMOECK describes not finding the inflator to his BC. Again, a trick is to attach a small bungie loop to the strap of your harness or BC at the height of your armpit, and pass the inflator mechanism through it so it won't move out of reach. An illustration can be seen here:
http://www.wkpp.org/images/pina_equip/inflator_config.jpg

Hope this is useful,
Peter

[gregmoeck]

Great Idea's Peter. I will have to do something like this.

[otolith]

Wow, thanks for the stories. Just got certified in water with about 3-4ft of visibility, and it was amazing how easy it was to get separated from your dive buddy.

SO how do you read your guages or dive computer without a mask?

[gregmoeck]

you can see just fine under the water without a mask. it does not sting until your eyes dry out. No need to panic if you loose your mask, everything is fine.

[Tech Diver]

Unfortunately, I am not able to read my gauges without a mask so I always carry a spare. This is particularly important for me because most of my dives involve the use of decompression schedules. However, there is a trick that does actually work: cup your hand while pressing it firmly against your eyebrow, then catch some air bubbles while looking down at a 45 degree angle. The air works like a mask but it only lasts for a few seconds if you wear gloves. It takes some practice but it can be done.

[Tech Diver]

For GREGMOECK
Greg, here is a much better photo of the "captured" inflator:
http://www.fifthd.com/e-education/productinfo/images/hose2.jpg

[gregt]

This is a great thread. Thanks guys. :thumbsup:

[porky]

Yes! I agree this is a great thread. Very informative!

[nitroxdiver009]

"i found that your buddy is never near by when you need him like in an out of air emergancy( whitch happend to me at 120 feet ish

according to my computer i was a little bit over the ndl
My buddy wasnt insight so i decided to go up slowly... guess what at around 90 ft i couldent hold my breath any longer.. my first idea was to grab my BC oral inflator and breath from it. and use it like a rebreather... sure it dosnt have a scrubber but you can rebreath the same air atleast 10 times and be perfectly fine. I had time to do a 2 minut safty stop. and got to the surface fine.

I dont recomend breathing from your BC since it can be toxc but i had nother way.

I only breath about 4 times a minute so i usualy dont run out of air.

I found that the reason i ran out was cause i had a leak in the first stage.

"



I belive that you shoult stick to your training. not trained to go past 60 ft dont do it not trained to go in to a ship wreckDONT DO IT.
( ship wrecks are my fave)

[Tech Diver]

Originally posted by nitroxdiver009
I found that the reason i ran out was cause i had a leak in the first stage.


One of the standard procedures we do in technical diving is a "bubble check" near the surface just before we descend. If someone is leaking, we "call" the dive. A small leak may not seem like much near the surface, but at depth it amounts to a far greater volume (remember Boyle's Law).

Another procedure we have is not diving solo (Yes, I know this is a whole other topic for discussion). By using "the rule of thirds" in our gas planning, the team has enough gas to support another diver. That is, you turn the dive when either you have reached your planned time limit or you have used up one-third of your gas supply. The second-third is used for the return, and the last-third is used in the event a team member has a gas loss.

Another part of team diving is to make visual contact EVERY 20 TO 60 SECONDS. That may seem excessive to many people, but we are dealing with human lives here. If your buddy is not around to support you, you may want to consider diving with someone else or discuss with your buddy what are your expectations so you can work as a team. It is sometimes said that the single most important choice of dive equipment is your buddy.

nixtroxdiver009, it sounds like you came very close to not making it back. Breathing from your BC was quick thinking. Glad you are still with us!

[MargaritaMan]

A few more thoughts if I may:

I got certified as a college elective so our course was nine weeks which gave us a lot of time to cover "emergency procedures" which is more than I can say for a lot of dive shops out there who seem to be more interested in the card and the $$$.

I am currently in Hawaii for two weeks visiting family and just got back this morning from my second time free diving. I did 50' which I felt was pretty cool for a rookie. I think the self control involved and discipline required is incredible. The guys I went with were from Miami and flew all the way to Hawaii to compete in Haliewa for a free dive fishing contest this weekend. To see these guys hang at 100' WITHOUT a tank blew me away. I think my point here is that you should try free diving sometime as I think the lesson(s) will really benefit my SCUBA skills.

And if you are a rookie the points listed by other members are spot on!!

MM

[nitroxdiver009]

the time i had the problem was with a new buddy( normal buddy didnt show)
i usualy cheack my stuff befor i decend but my buddy decided to go down righaway . so i followed him.

i usualy do keep in contact
if my buddy wanders off i go withhim even if it isnt what we planed to do

i think i was narced or somthing that time.

i also stay overweighted so if my buddy decides to go for the surface i can deflate my BC and grab him and slow him down if not stop him.

[otolith]

Wow, great information.
Thanks

[Tech Diver]

Originally posted by nitroxdiver009
i also stay overweighted so if my buddy decides to go for the surface i can deflate my BC and grab him and slow him down if not stop him.

I understand the logic behind overweighing yourself. However, consider the fact that controlling one's buoyancy requires making continuous adjustments against an inherently unstable system. That is, when you begin to sink or rise you do so at an increasing rate because of the changing volume of gas in your BC. By overweighing yourself you wind up with more air in your BC than you normally would (to counteract the extra weight). So a change in depth affects your BC gas volume by a greater amount resulting in more instability. This extra amount can be fairly significant.

Controlling buoyancy is like balancing a billiard ball on top of a smooth mound; the ball wants to roll off. Lots of gas in your BC makes the mound very steep, while a small amount makes the mound very gentle.

As for pulling your buddy down, the technique I was taught was to grab him from behind, and with your arm across his chest YOU use HIS inflator to control the buoyancy for BOTH of you.

[Paul B]

Tech Diver, I have a question for you. Did the PADI course get much easier over the years? My first dive was in Sydney Australia in 1970 and I was PADI certified in 1974. It took ten weeks, three hours a week with half of that in a pool the rest in a classroom and three open water dives in zero visability in NY. We learned medical aspects, decompression, beach diving, boat diving, rescue diving, repetitive dives, dangerous animals and what not. My wife and daughter was certified about 7 years ago in the Caribbean and learned close to nothing in a few hours
Paul

[Tech Diver]

Paul,

I don't really know if PADI has relaxed its requirements over the years, but the information you were taught in your PADI OW class is FAR more than I received in mine. Whether that is due to course structure or the quality of the instructor, I am not sure. I have seen an awful lot of dive shops offer an accelerated PADI OW course where you get your certification in just one weekend (I personally do not agree with such fast-track training for one's first certification). I don't want to start bashing PADI but it seems to me that they are more interested in turning a good profit than turning out good divers.

I have had the exact same reaction as Mad Scientist. That is, until I got into the details and rigors of training for technical diving, I never knew just how ill prepared I was through my PADI OW and AOW classes.

Peter

[nitroxdiver009]

o inly over weigh my self tho when with a new buddy. once i know him and know how he responds to problems i let up. usuaaly i am neutral with very little air in bc( almost a flick of the inflator is enough. when i am taking picts i tend to do alittle extra weight since it makes it easier to stay still

[Paul B]

Peter, my "C" card reads "Basic SCUBA Diver", my wifes care reads "Open water diver" I don't know the difference and apparently PADI does not either because I wrote them on two occasions about it and did not get a response. Her dive charts are just no decompression tables. I have the three charts for decompression and repetitive dives. Her actual class was about 4 hours. I think PADI wants to give you a very basic course then charge you for all the other courses. I guess it's not too dangerous as long as these people know their limitations.
I have never had a terrable emergency while diving except once swimming into a 100 year old ship boiler and having a little trouble getting out (about 6" vis) Once I caught a lobster, the biting kind, we don't have those "sissy" lobster here, and when I went to put it in the bag I noticed the bag with a few lobsters in it were gone. My partner who was tied to me went back for it and I caught another lobster. While I was laying on the bottom on my back waiting for him the lobster grabbed my inflator hose to my BC. With a lobster in both hands I tried to pull him away and of course the hose on the BC came out of the fitting. My buddy came back and with 36 lbs. of weight on I could not swim too good so we had to surface to fix the BC. I did not want to drop my weight belt because we have all kinds of stuff attached to it so I tied my inflatable buoy marker to it, before I dropped it, I inflated the marker and I rode it to the surface and repaired my BC, then I followed the line down and put the weights back on. I know, not that exciting, but here where it's pitch black at 25' in a 1/4" suit it gets tough.
Anyway I got all the lobsters and my weight belt.
Paul

[billsreef]

Paul,

I got certified almost 10 years after you, my card reads the same and the duration of the course was the same. Took up most of a summer. The amount of time and drilling in that course makes me wonder about the short day or two courses that here about these days :rolleyes:

nitroxdiver009,

Your far better off practicing and refining your buoyancy control and reducing your weight than overweighting for any reason. If you have a buddy going into an out of control ascent, you don't need to be weighted enough to sink them, you just need to be able to slow the ascent to a safe rate. And that just takes some extra drag wich you will be able to supply without the extra lead ;) Also your photography will get better with better control as oposed to extra lead. It just takes practice...and that means more diving :D

[Paul B]

Bill, You probably got certified the same place as me at "Central SCUBA Divers" The course damn near killed me.
Paul

[nitroxdiver009]

god i love scuba... my computer busted and dive captin wont let me use his spg on my regulator .... so im not going to go..

I WILL NEVER dive with out my own equptment ( besides he computer which i can do without)
I know my stuff way to well i can almost assemble the gear with my eyes closed.

Only time i will not use my own gear is if i can practice with the new stuff first ( in less then 10 ft)

[billsreef]

Originally posted by Paul B
Bill, You probably got certified the same place as me at "Central SCUBA Divers" The course damn near killed me.
Paul

I was living too far East, still do :D Got my certification at the old 7 Z's in Flanders. My instructer was former para trooper, drilled us hard but quite well ;)

Heard a scary story from an aquaintance that just got certified. His instructor originally planned on doing their open water dive at Secret Beach out here on the Sound. However the waves were too much, so went to the old Ponquogue Bridge in Shinnecock....and not at slack tide :eek2:

[Paul B]

Bill, I never dove there but it does not sound too good. I took my check out dives somewhere near Zachs Bay on the south shore. The instructor had to put his mask against mine to see me and he had to hold my hand to see if I was doing the hand signals. If you want to see your depth guage you have to put it in your mask. Like I said, if you can dive here, you can dive anywhere.
Paul

[gregt]

I moved the "gas management" discussion to another thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413441

[cabrerad]

Paul,


There is a difference between "Basic Scuba Diver" (PADI Scuba Diver) " and "Open Water Scuba Diver" (PADI Open Water Diver). The PADI Scuba diver allows you dive only under the supervision of a Divemaster, Assistant Instructoror, Instructor, or higher rated professional. The Open Water course is a more comprehensive course. With this certification, one can dive independant from a professional. I am rather surprised this was not made clear in your courses. Regardless, the quality of the course depends very much on the instructor as the content is fairly standard among the major dive organizations. As Tech Diver mentions, you will get more out of the longer courses than the weekend course, especially for the initial cert.

David

[Paul B]

David, either you have your courses screwed up or PADI does not know what they are doing. When I was certified in the seventies it was the long 12 week course with everything you could think of including decompression, multiple dives and everything else. My card says "Basic SCUBA Diver. I think that was the only card they had in those days. I have been diving on my own since then off my own boat with my equipment. My wife and daughter had the rediculously short learn nothing course in the Caribbean learning only no decompression diving. Their card says "Open Water Diver". I wrote to PADI about this twice and received no response. Since I do not have to depend on a dive boat or rental gear, I really do not care what it reads. It is just confusing.
Do you have an E mail address for PADI? I will try to ask them again.
Paul

[aquamanathome]

I learned to dive in Connecticut and dove around the north east for several years before moving to Florida 14 years ago. I am lucky enough to get to dive year round day and night very often. Of course not everything goes as planed and I have had several "learning" experiances.

Once during a night dive in late November around 11pm I was diving with two friends looking for lobsters. I was alone at the time "this happens often" about 35' deep. There was a nice lobster under a ledge that went deep under the reef. There was about 2' clearance top to bottom between the rocks and it went about 15 or 20 feet in. I was about 2/3rds of the way wiggling in when I relized that I was stuck. I had stired up the sedament and couldn't see that well. I stoped moving and tried to relax as I was close to panic. After I calmed down I was able to unhook my gear and once off I was able to push myself out while draging my gear.

I put my gear on and finished the dive catching a few, but that one got away and left me with a new respect for where I put myself.

[cabrerad]

Paul,



I don't have the courses mixed up. The courses I mentioned are the current courses that PADI offers. I did not realize your cert was from 14 years ago. I contacted PADI myself and got the following response from the training department:

Thank you for taking the time to write and for the opportunity to answer your questions.

Prior to standards changes that occurred on September 1, 1986, there were two PADI entry-level certifications: Basic Diver and Open Water Diver. Basic Diver training included most of the performance requirements of Open Water Diver training, but it required only two open-water training dives. This difference meant that some skills, such as emergency swimming ascent and buddy breathing ascent, were not practiced in open water. Because of this, Basic Diver certification came with a restriction requiring the diver and his buddy to dive with an alternate air source. Additionally, Basic Divers are not eligible for most other PADI courses, such as PADI Advanced Open Water Diver, Specialties, etc. as they require a minimum rating of PADI Open Water Diver to enroll.

To upgrade to a PADI Open Water Diver level, the Basic Diver must successfully complete a PADI Scuba Review and the PADI Open Water Diver course training Dives 3 and 4, including performing a controlled emergency swimming ascent. Then submit a PIC for Open Water Diver certification.

The course your wife and daughter took is the initial entry level course that PADI offers that lets them rent equipment and dive without a professional escort (with a 60 foot recommended depth limit). I am not sure how exactly you are defining decompression diving, but the entry level open water courses teach no-stop diving and do not teach staged decompression diving. This type of diving is covered in technical courses. Does that clear things up any?


David

[Paul B]

David, thank you, that does clear it up somewhat. I did have only two checkout dives. My wife had one. Anyway, so far I have not had any problems when I dive in far off places. I will be going to Tahiti in a few weeks and I have one more dive to take to get my advanced certification. As I said, I don't need it because I usually dive on my own but I may as well get it in case they give me a hard time. Thanks for the information.
paul

[cabrerad]

I am glad I could help out. Your wife should have had 4 checkout dives (plus an optional snorkel) for an Open Water cert, so that sounds a bit odd. Maybe they trained her for a discovery type course and then gave her the full cert? I am glad to hear you are getting the advanced cert, it should keep people from giving you trouble. It sounds like you already have a lot of dives under your belt though, so a your dive log would prove you are experienced. It's a useful cert to get some experience for beginners and some dive operators require it for the more advanced dives. The course could probably have a better name though, as the only way to get "advanced" is to dive a lot "the right way". Anyways, have fun in Tahiti! I am going to the British Virgin Islands next Thursday..you get to see more acros than me

David

[Paul B]

David. Have fun in the Virgin Islands. I have never dove in Tahiti, the only Pacific dives I did was in Australia and Hawaii. I was certified in 1978, 26 years ago not 14. When these dive shops in the Caribbean see my C card they just tell me they never saw a card like that before. I am sure it has been redesigned a few times since then. There were not many people diving then which was great because all the ship wrecks here in NY had all the stuff on them that they went down with. It does not even pay to visit them anymore because they are picked clean.
I did the dives for the advanced certification somewhere in the Caribbean off the Windstar ship. It was too rough the last day and we couldn't dive so I will get it in Tahiti. I am going on the same ship.
Paul

[Paul B]

David one more thing. I just remembered. You said that my course should have been no staged decompression dives but this is not the case. My certification taught multiple decompression with staged stops at various depths and repetitive decompression dives. Maybe in 1978 the criteria was different than now. I have no restrictions. My wife can only do no decompression dives. Her charts do not allow for any decompression. Mine do.
How did you contact PADI? Or could you ask them that for me?
Now it's a quest.
Paul.

[Mad Scientist]

[. My certification taught multiple decompression with staged stops at various depths and repetitive decompression dives. Maybe in 1978 the criteria was different than now. I have no restrictions. My wife can only do no decompression dives. Her charts do not allow for any decompression. Mine do.
How did you contact PADI? Or could you ask them that for me?
Now it's a quest.
Paul. [/B][/QUOTE]

It was just with air right? Most of the time when you use the term "stages stops" it means that you are changing gases at the stop.

[SDBDRZ]

My certification taught multiple decompression with staged stops at various depths and repetitive decompression dives. Maybe in 1978 the criteria was different than now.

My only comment would be that yes things have changed tremendously since 1978 regarding deco theory. Not sure what type of diving you do but if you have not done any deco dives recently and plan to in the future I would suggest that you take some updated classes beforehand. Your tables are probably cut based on air and most (not all but almost all) people who do deco diving now use mixed gases.

If your wife and daughter got certified on vacation it does not suprise me much that they did not get much out of the class. I think that the key to any class, no matter what agency, is the instructor. I have been fortunate to work with two very good instructors for my training and I feel that I have probably learned more than most people I have talked to who took comparable classes.

[cabrerad]

Paul,

With respect to decompression diving, current recreational Open Water level courses do not teach staged decompression diving (So it's normal your wife did not learn that). I cannot comment, however, on your 1978 course as I don't know what the standards were. All I know is at least from 1989 (when I got my NAUI Open Water)-now (I am a PADI Instructor (MSDT)) none of the non technical courses I have taken or taught included planned staged decompression dives. So In short, I dunno.
I contacted PADI's training department to ask about your basic diver cert. I am sure PADI has the training requirements for your 1978 course. If you still have questions about your course, you can e-mail PADI's training department (training@padi.com).
If you want to do staged deco diving with your wife, there are many specialized courses available that teach this.

[Paul B]

Scott, Most of my dives (except for a week a year in the tropics) are in New York near the city and they are usually under forty feet. Here at about 18' it is pitch black and the light usually makes it worse because of the sediment. I am out for lobsters, urchins and fluke so I do not have to go too deep. Once in a while someones anchor gets stuck and I will free it.
I am sure my charts are way off now and luckilly I don't have to use them at that depth. I will retire in a couple of years and if I get a place in the Caymans I will have to take a new course just for my own safety. I do have a lot of experience but I would not now do a decompression dive here in NY with my old tables.
Thanks guys for the information and dive safe.
Paul

[Scuba_Dave]

I've been diving about 5 years now. When I dive on vacation I carry a backup emergency flotation device - large safety sausage. It can support me if my BC fails. Also an aftermarket high powered whistle.
Had one issue w/the wife on a scallop dive (Boston) in about 65' of water. She had an older BC and was overweighted. She started to panic, I went down to assist her , holding on to her to use my BC to bring her up until we were in shallower water.
I gave her my computer to hold so I could see the depth as we ascended. She kept letting go of the computer. We were at about 30' when I went to look at my computer & lost my hold on her. She started to sink back down & went into a panic. She pulled out her weights & handed some to me....but since we were going up together it didn't matter who had them....
I grabbed her & inflated my BC, a slightly faster trip on the last 20' to the surface then I liked, but we had been at 20-30' for some time as she undid weight.
No problems after. Bought a new Zeagle before we went diving again.
Since then we have been diving a lot & I have continued my training & advanced to a Master Scuba Diver. She has taken almost as many courses, but not rescue.
It's amazing to me that they teach diving without teaching sharing a reg. It may never happen, but it's good to know.
I understand that they think it can cause more problems...but....
We dive quite a bit, usually in NE we are lucky to have 10-15' of Viz and 60 degree water
So warm water is a welcome relief, but the distance can be farther then you think
Take a test in warm water, good Viz. Take a breath, then try to swim to your buddy before it runs out...in warm water you will be farther away then you think. If your buddy is too far away...you are dead....
I've studied deco diving, if something happened I would be able to guestimate some stops. I have done a few deco dives, nothing major or deep. I carry a 2nd tank in the caribbean on a sling, gives me enough air to do deco.
Training & experience are everything. I've always thought that advancing in training should include "X" number of dives, and "X" number of months.
Since I dive with a 98's, & she has 85's, I always have more air. We have practiced swimming with her on my alternate, keeping 800 psi in her tank, until my runs down to the same. Then we head in to shore. These dives are almost always under 40'. When we are on the same tank we are already heading back to shore in about 20' of water.
Gotta love fresh lobster...6 from the ocean to the pot in 3 hours...

[DiverD rufus]

Diving a wreak in Lake Michigan last weekend and had a free flow reg at a 160 feet pinched off hose and swiched to my octo and about 30sec. later my octo startes to free flow had to turn my air off . Me and my brother dive alot together so it has no big deal just used his octo and and started up. At 70 feet turned my air back on and everything was fine it had frooze up water temp was 42 at 160. The main thing is to keep cool, alot had to do with I had great instructors when I got my certs. years ago. PS brother has an ice diving reg.

[aquamanathome]

One night here in Florida we were diving for lobsters in about 30' of water. That shallow we get a good amount of bottom time. After working up and back on the reef I surfaced to see exactly where the boat was located. It should have been pretty close and just to my west, but it was north north west and almost out of sight! I dove to the bottom and took off in that direction. I find I can travel much faster and farther on the bottom. I only had 800 psi and when that ran out I hit the surface rolled onto my back and started to kick. It took me another 45 min.s to catch the boat. The ancor had been pulled free from the top of the reef and just hung in the deeper water. My friends had no idea what had happened but were glad when I showed up with the boat. Now I never assume that someone else will check the ancor set.

[ACIDRAIN]

Just a few comments from me;

One, never lose sight of your buddy, and always stay within your buddies sight. These buddies can be life savers. I have several times had to buddy breath, for multiple reasons. I will tell the best story at the end of this post.

Two, personally, I hate the integrated weight systems into the BCs. I have had a couple of buddies lose their weights while diving. I had to swim up quickly and help bring them back down. Once got hit on the head by a 3 pounder, looked up, and there was my buddy 5 feet above me. She was holding onto the lip of the ship we were diving. After all said and done, everyone laughed. But could have been very dangerous. And I would have hated losing my best dive buddy.

Three has to do with a previous post. As for being over weighted, what happens if your BC springs a leak? You will drastically start going down. Then in a panic or not, you will fight to go back up, burning your own air at a high rate of speed. This in its self could become very dangerous if you were to the low air point when it happened. But, what if you paniced and dumped your weights because you were sinking? Could spell bad trouble. You should never dive with more weights than you need.

Four; always have a whistle, and even as I do, I also have an air powered horn from my tank. It sounds like a sick duck quacking, but out of the water it can be heard a mile away. Makes a good attention getter while under the water as well. It attaches to the air line to your BC.
Mine looks simular to this one;
http://www.scuba.com/images/bc/004056.jpg

Six; always carry a knife, unless the dive boat you are with does not allow it. But it has been my experience that even though they post things like this, they never enforce them. I had a friend die about 20 years ago, and if he could have gotten to his knife, he probably would have lived. The story here is not only to carry a knife, but to keep it properly placed. If you are going to carry one on your leg, keep it to the inside part of your leg. On the outside, it can get bumped and you may lose your knife. I have recovered over 20 knives from dive areas over the years. But, the best position is for one of the smaller knives mounted on your BC. The reason for this, is the reason my friend died. He had a knife on his leg. He was diving for lobster in Florida (I was not with him). He got wrapped up in a net on the bottom. He could not reach his legs they said, and thus could not get to his knife. If he would have had it mounted on his BC, he probably would have survived. Personally, I carry one of the small cheaper knives on my BC, and I carry one on my leg.

Seven; always carry a bottle of ammonia or windex with ammonia, with you when you go diving. This is for those just in case times, if you should happen to get stung by something. Most jellyfish stings, fire coral stings, and many others can be counter acted and the pain stopped, with ammonia. If all else fails, you can even pee on yourself, hey it really works, I have done it after getting stung multiple times by a moon jelly.

Eight; when doing night dives, have at least one of your flashlights with brand new batteries in it. If it is your cheapo back up, so be it, but just make sure they are new.

And there are many more. The main point is, SAFETY FIRST. This is a great recreational hobby, but can be very dangerous. If you do not understand something about your dive, always, always ask questions. After all, by not wanting to look stupid or something, you could end up dead and stupid for not asking more.

Oh, I almost left out the most important thing about diving. After a heavy night out on the town, you want to buddy up with the most hung over person. The reason is, when you get down there, and they chum the water and feed the fish (which does happen a lot to those hung over people), you will be there to see it all. Make sure you have a camera at that time too. Makes great pics for great stories. LOL.

[ACIDRAIN]

OH, I forgot to tell the best story, LOL

I was spear fishing in PCB. We were down about 40 feet when I saw it. I can't remember the name of the fish!!! But anyway, From the top, they look like a shark in the water, and actually many people mistake them for just that. On with the story; It was a 5 footer. It kept coming closer and closer, so I set my pole spear and grabbed onto the tie line, and swoosh! Great shot from 6 foot away, right behind the gill plate, and all the way through. OOPS!! Where did the tie line go? Out of my hands and away through the water, straight down to 90+ feet to the bottom. Fighting this thing with all the edrinalin going. I finally got him secured and checked my time and air. Usually I can do 90 feet for about 40-45 mins with no problems. This time, I was sitting on the bottom, with about 300 lbs air left, and had only been in the water for about 5 mins. I turned to my buddy, and being the experienced diver he was, he could see how hard I was breathing, and immediately handed me his buddy breather. We sat there a few minutes to adjust, and then slowly headed back up to the boat.

Moral to this story; Always keep an eye on your air. You never know how quickly it can go down. You could experience a leak, get excited, or any other thing, but always keep track of your air, after all it is your life we are talking about here!

[Paul B]

Next week me and my wife are going on a dive vacation to six Tahitian Islands on a sailboat. Hopefully I will not have any horror stories to tell. I have been very lucky for many years.
Paul

[David P]

Great I read this just before I go for my checkout dives this weekend at Catalina...

[punkpup]

All these posts are very thought provoking!

I was certified in Massachusetts in 1986 by a former Marine D.I. who is a NAUI certified Instructer. He was incredibly thorough in his instruction. For certification as a "SCUBA Diver" I attended classes for six weeks and had to pass weekly written tests as well as pool tests and was not elegible to do open water dives until I passed all written and pool tests. I then went on to take the course for "Advanced SCUBA Diver" that year as well.

As to the subject of overweighting........ it is extremely dangerous!!!

In 1987 I was in the Caymans on a live aboard dive boat for my second Caribbean Dive trip.The first dive of the day is generally anywhere between 90' to 120'. The minimum rating for any of the divers was Advanced SCUBA/Open Water depending on NAUI or PADI certification so all of us are competent divers and can plan multiple dives with the appropriate decompression stops without the aid of Dive Computers. The water was very rough and my regular Buddy was not feeling well enough to dive so I Buddied with one of the Dive Masters. We planned the dive, checked our gear and loaded our weight belts with lead. Being excited to make the first dive of the trip I made a critical and potentially deadly error; having been so accustomed to diving in a 1/4" Neoprene Wet Suit I overweighted my belt . Needless to say my descent was nice and easy and at 90 ft I began stablizing but on checking my air guage was a bit alarmed to notice that I had consumed an excessive amount of air. At this point I notified my Buddy that I would have to begin my ascent soon but that I was comfortable ascending on my own. BIG mistake! After a few more minutes at about 100' I began my ascent. I cannot begin to tell you how alarming it was to see my air gauge drop so fast and for the air to get harder and harder to inhale and not be anywhere near the surface. In addition I could not locate the ship! At 30' I only had a little bit of reserve air left and decided to go to the surface in an effort to locate the ship. The surface was so rough I had difficulty locating the ship and here's another dangerous mistake; no snorkel! Once I located the ship and took a compass heading I descended to 10' and swam like there was no tomorrow, which at that point was a clear possibility. With dread I watched as my reserve disappear and knew I had to surface. The one thing that was saving me at this point was that I had just barely enough air in my BC to float on the surface but I was nearly exhausted and the ship still looked really far away. With no other choice I started swimming. Although I am a competent, graceful and efficient SCUBA diver I am a weak surface swimmer and struggled without really making any headway. All this time it never occured to me to drop my weight belt! Thankfully one of the other Dive Masters on the boat saw me, threw me a rescue doughnut and dragged my half dead, choking and spluttering carcass out of the water.
So even though I may not have been in a full blown panic it is quite obvious that in a stressful situation I made some verrrry bad decisions and almost killed myself.

Plan the dive then dive the plan. Double check your gear, have your Buddy check it too and vice versa. My first and biggest mistake was not doing this with my new Buddy. My regular Buddy and I have a pre dive checklist from which we never deviate. Most importantly, stick with your Buddy at all times!

Safe and happy diving!

[Paul B]

I got those Tahiti dives in.
Paulhttp://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094sharks_tahiti-med.jpg

[sammiefish]

I was diving in the Brockville narrows (Canada St. Lawrence river)... a drift dive in maybe 2 knots current with 2 other buddies and a 3rd buddy who joined the group on the boat. diver #4 did not speak english so we had little chance to have pre-dive discussions... All we knew was that he was that the captain said he was an advanced diver, and he had all the best equipment. with about 2000 lbs of air left I started to feel that #4 was lagging behind... I would grab the wall and slow down to wait for him.. he would also slow down... this repeated a couple of times... now, we are at 110 ft flying in the current next to a wall with another 200 ft of water below us... #4 is still acting suspicious, finally I grab a crevice in the wall and of course he slows down again too... I signal to him to come to me... (I cant get to him in this current).. he comes... I grab his gauge... he has 100 lbs of air left... yes we are at 110 ft and he has 100 lbs left... Im thinking *** man!!! I grab his cuffs (his sealed glove drysuit cuffs) like handcuffs so he wont grab me... I can feel he's shaking... I stuff my octopus in his mouth and begin an ascent.... I got him back up safely but... again... *** man!!! I had 800 lbs left when we got to the surface even after a safety stop. The moral of the story is DONT dive with someone you dont know, you never know what kind of crap they will pull.... that is unless you dont mind blowing good money on a dive charter to have it trashed by a bozo!!

[z28cam]

Did you ever figure out why he was acting so wierd, slowing down when you would wait for him?

[sammiefish]

After the dive he attributed the low air to an equipment failure (his secondary was leaking) but it doesnt really explain his behavior... it seems to me he would have tried to let us know he was having problems... Maybe he wanted to descend to the abyss and embark upon the big sleep... Otherwise it may have been narcosis.. we were at 110ft... just flying. We never did get an explaination for the behavior... but remember, we couldnt really communicate before the dive due the language barrier (he spoke French) and after we got him back on the boat safely I wasnt talking too much to him!! After he was safe I really felt like slapping him in the head.. of course I didnt do that. He didnt even have the decency to thank us for likely saving his life or at least grave injury.

So, If you see a lone diver, with all the BEST equipment (looking new too) that doesnt speak your language... tell the captain he's on his own! Im not sure I would really leave a diver out in the cold like that with no buddy but I know that I will be much more thorough in my pre-dive stranger buddy size-up. But, Im a PADI Divemaster and I guess this is what all the training was for. Now I have a battle story to tell... I just hope I dont get another! Just goes to show, its important to keep a sharp eye and trust your instincts... if something doesnt seem quite right at 110 ft... it probably isnt!

[porky]

I got those Tahiti dives in.
Hey Paul, you got some pictures to share?

[Paul B]

Tahiti
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094tahiti-med.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy__3__of_Tahiti_047-med.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094act05.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Manta-med.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094butterfly_turtle_tahiti-med.jpg

[porky]

WOWOWOWOWOWOW!!! :eek1:
Awesome pics Paul! You were right in that turtles grill man. Cool.
Thanks for sharing!

[Mad Scientist]

Great pics!!!!

[Tikkagirl]

I sometimes wonder if I was meant to dive, especially after the last 2 dives I had. I have been trying to finish my advanced certification and have had problems on the last 2 attempts to get my card. The first dive was about 3 weeks ago and was a boat dive off of the Monterey coast at a location called the Metridian field. There was >4' vis and the surface had 4-5' chop. My instructor could not equalize his ears and kept submerging and surfacing trying to work it out and my husband was underweighted and couldn't get under the surface without bobbing back up so he had to scrub the dive. I could only do 1 of the 2 dives I needed because when I got back on the boat I got sea sick for the first time in 20 years. That sucked!
The second was this last weekend at Monterey's Breakwater. First, my husband had forgotten to toothpaste his goggles and they kept fogging up and he had to use kelp to scrub them out. It worked pretty well! We were trying out rented back inflate BC's to see if they would be preferable to the ones we already own which was a mistake. My husband had the shoulder purge valve stick open and the dive instructor had to use his scissors to get it to close. Then when he pulled his rear bottom purge it came off in his hand! It turned out the threads were stripped and it wouldn't stay screwed on. He swam back in at that point just when I discovered my BC wouldn't deflate all the way and I couldn't stay underwater. He was too far away to hear my underwater alarm by this point and I had to scrub my last advanced cert dive yet again!
If you have the option to try out new or rented equipment, be sure to check it out through and through before going out so you don't have to miss a dive due to faulty equipment or have an emergency that could have been avoided. Also, FYI, if you get sick while underwater it is possible to vomit through your regulator (yes, it's disgusting but you won't drown that way). Just be sure to clean it VERY WELL when you are done with the dive! Stomach acid is very corrossive

[sammiefish]

Man, "that sucks" is right! If it were me, I be tearing someone a new as@h#$e. You rented 2 BC's both of which failed... putting both of you in a potentially VERY DANGEROUS situation. On top of that, the equipment failure likely caused you a financial loss as well as opportunity loss. What the heck... all you ever hear from the dive shops is "be sure to have your equipment serviced" and in the case of the shop you rented from... they are obviously not following the rules. What is the name of the shop you rented from? What, if any, certifying agency are they affilliated with? I would absolutely not stand for that!!! Have they already agreed to compensate you for your losses, did they charge you for the rental? It would be interesting to watch "the compensation" had one of you been injured or killed due to that equipment failure! You seem like you are taking this pretty well.

Would you be willing to share the name of the operation that provided you (for a fee) the rental of 2 BC's, both of which failed on the same dive? Of course, if they handled the situation in a professional manner to your satisfaction please dont name them here. Regardless of how they handled the situation I would think twice before renting from them again. And of course, you made it through another "situation". Remember, what doesnt kill you, makes you stronger. Do you think you were "set up" with defective BC's as part of your training? While I understand the methodology, if that was the case, in my opinion, that would be highly unethical and dangerous.

Its crap like that that gives good dive ops a bad name.

Sincerely,
Chris
PADI Divemaster

[Tikkagirl]

The shop is a local one and we are friends with the owners. They generally keep up their equipment very well and this was sort of a fluke occurrance. We aren't going to be charged because the shop has a policy that they guarantee the equipment will work as it should and they have been in business for more than 30 years with no accidents on their record. We won't have any problems with payment since they would never dream of making us pay for equipment that messed up and will take care of the problem ASAP. They are a reputable establishment.
There are shops out there that aren't and that was the point I was trying to get across when I said to check your rental gear prior to diving. And I agree with you that the bad ones should be reported and possibly shut down if they are going to be dangerous to rent from.

[sammiefish]

Im glad to hear that you are satisfied with the outcome. I second your vote for labelling this as a fluke... 2 BC's, 2 failures.... that is why I wondered if you were "set-up" as part of your training. Well, look on the bright side. You now have complete BC failure experience and lived to tell the tale! Definately useful experience... dont forget to log it!! congrats

[sammiefish]

punkup,

What happened to your snorkel? I see this often in divers above basic cert level. I wont leave the shore without mine!

As far as the overweighting and air consumption... do you link these two events?... If so, why?

Did you identify anything (other than proper weighting) that you might do differently in the future if a similar situation presents itself?

Im not criticizing... I just like to discuss this sort of thing ... Im sure others can benefit.


OK.....
It sounds like you were using a j valve... is that true?
It also sounds like you would use a snorkel in the future.
You said that separating from your buddy was a "BIG MISTAKE".
Do you carry a "safety sausage" now?
Did your BC have a manual inflator hose?
Do you think "swimming like there was no tomorrow" got you further per unit air consumed than if you swam like there were plenty of tomorrows?

Again, no criticism here... just constructive discussion.

[melev]

Great thread guys. I'm glad I read it.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by sammiefish
punkup,

What happened to your snorkel? I see this often in divers above basic cert level. I wont leave the shore without mine!

.

I never wear a snorkle. Aside from the extra drag, I don't like the risk of entangling something which is attached to my mask (plus it doesn't work with the long hose). On the surface, I swim on my back - it's a more efficent way to swim and, in an emergency, you want to be looking around, not putting your face in the water.

[condor13090]

Ever notice when diving with your dive buddy that they either stay so close that they bump into you all the time...use their arms too much or kick you in the head with their fins. Then maybe do the opposite and swim ahead and never look back to see where you are. If I had a problem there would be no way to get their attention. I read where one guy got tangled in fishing line...at night and even had a blow horn and the other guys just swam away. He was one lucky diver because he just bought a knife the day before! While he was freeing himself the other divers went to shore and paid little attention to him and just watched his night light out in the lake.
I have an idea...tell me what you think of it. If two divers were to use a 10 ft. piece of rope with velcro attached to one wrist of each diver...then whenever their was a problem or you need to get the other guys attention...just tug on the rope. They would never get too far away and if you had to release the rope just undue the velcro! George

[sammiefish]

MS,
While I can understand your perspective you fail to consider the unexpected. In rough water (which can come up very quickly even on a beautiful day) you cant easily swim on your back. If you had to dump/lose your BC how are you going to swim? The snorkel will help you not get mouths/lungs full of water.
Just thoughts for consideration...

condor,
yeah, I think thats a good idea. its especially good in no visibility or darkness... the thing is that you and your buddy should practice with such a thing in good conditions first. Similar procedures are used during rescue/recovery dive team ops.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by sammiefish
MS,
While I can understand your perspective you fail to consider the unexpected. In rough water (which can come up very quickly even on a beautiful day) you cant easily swim on your back. If you had to dump/lose your BC how are you going to swim? The snorkel will help you not get mouths/lungs full of water.
Just thoughts for consideration...
.

I've been in very rough water and I still feel swimming on your back is the way to go. In those conditions, I would keep my reg, not a snorkel in mouth. I can't think why I would even "dump" my bp/wing.

[sammiefish]

MS,

I agree that with your SCUBA finning backwards on the surface is a good way to go...

I think you are missing my point... in an emergency where you have dumped your SCUBA you dont have a reg to breathe from....

If you cant think why you might dump (or lose) your SCUBA you might try to think again... your training has (hopefully) provided you with scenarios which include this distinct possibility. If you still cant think of a reason why you would dump your SCUBA then you might not make it to the issue of wishing you had a snorkel. Remember, emergencies are never planned (hence the title of this thread).

I am not trying to tell you, "you have to wear a snorkel"... (there are no SCUBA police).

Ultimately the only one that can save you in an emergency is you.

I am trying to say:

It is a very good idea to wear a snorkel.

Best regards,
SF

A really smart man will learn from the mistakes of others.

[Mad Scientist]

The chance of losing one's BC is very, very remote. Wearing a snorkle is a poor choice and a heads up to expericed divers that you do not know what you are doing. Snorkles create drag and are a serious entanglment ris - PLUS - you can't wear a long hose with one - but I guess your training taught you that's a long hose is a bad idea, but planning to lose your rig is a something to be prepared for???

I wear a one piece harness, I'm not worried about losing or ditching my gear.






Originally posted by sammiefish
MS,

I agree that with your SCUBA finning backwards on the surface is a good way to go...

I think you are missing my point... in an emergency where you have dumped your SCUBA you dont have a reg to breathe from....

If you cant think why you might dump (or lose) your SCUBA you might try to think again... your training has (hopefully) provided you with scenarios which include this distinct possibility. If you still cant think of a reason why you would dump your SCUBA then you might not make it to the issue of wishing you had a snorkel. Remember, emergencies are never planned (hence the title of this thread).

I am not trying to tell you, "you have to wear a snorkel"... (there are no SCUBA police).

Ultimately the only one that can save you in an emergency is you.

I am trying to say:

It is a very good idea to wear a snorkel.

Best regards,
SF

A really smart man will learn from the mistakes of others.

[sammiefish]

having logged hundreds's of dives as a PADI Divemaster, recreationally, teaching, and as a special operations rescue recovery diver, I can say I have never heard of anyone thinking that using a snorkel is a sign that you dont know what you are doing!

It is very common that "advanced" divers do not use them for one reason or another.

I do not think that it is likely that any emergency will occur... just that it is possible.

Here is another thing to think about...

in accidents where SCUBA divers die... many times the diver still has air left in the tank.... hmmm... pretty freaky huh?

The risk of death to a diver is greatest during their dive #1-25 and over 100... the deaths from dives 1-25 are likely due to inexperience.
the deaths of divers with over 100 dives is likely due to over-confidence and complacency...

Maybe having pulled the dead from the water has kept me on the straight and narrow...

[Tech Diver]

I never use a snorkel but there is a very specific reason for this. In the Hogarthian equipment configuration that I and other technical divers use, you breath from a 7 ft long hose that is wrapped around your neck. For those who are unfamiliar with this, the hose starts from the right post of your doubles (or single tank with an H-valve), runs down your right side, goes under your canister light (or reel) at your waist, comes up across your chest to your left shoulder, over the back of your neck, then into your mouth from the right. To donate gas to another diver you simply take the regulator out of your mouth while nodding your head down and pass it to the other diver. The hose automatically unwraps in a very smooth manner that could not be accomplished while using a snorkel because it would snag it. Wrecks also can not be penetrated because the snorkel will act as a trap for all the dangling wires and the wreck line that you run along your route. In cave diving a snorkel is never used for obvious reasons. All technical courses that I am aware of require the snorkel to be removed. As a result, I have learned not to rely on a snorkel at all. I do all my surface swimming on my back (which by the way is very energy efficient).

I do own a folding snorkel that I could potentially stick in the pocket of my dry-suit, but feel that it would not help me in the case of an emergency because I do my surface resting while floating on my back. I have done this in quite choppy seas and have never had a problem with it. When you float on your back, your tank acts as a keel weight and allows more of body to be exposed on the surface. Since my dry-suit is bright red in the chest area, this would help me get spotted more easily in a search and rescue scenario. I can also keep looking upward and shoot off a flare if I see a plane or chopper (yes I do carry flares for trips far out from the coast).

[Tech Diver]

Originally posted by condor13090
Ever notice when diving with your dive buddy that they either stay so close that they bump into you all the time...use their arms too much or kick you in the head with their fins. Then maybe do the opposite and swim ahead and never look back to see where you are. If I had a problem there would be no way to get their attention.

...snip...

I have an idea...tell me what you think of it. If two divers were to use a 10 ft. piece of rope with velcro attached to one wrist of each diver...then whenever their was a problem or you need to get the other guys attention...just tug on the rope. They would never get too far away and if you had to release the rope just undue the velcro! George

Condor, I understand the rationale behind your idea but I feel that using a rope as you describe is a potentially dangerous approach (except for some very unusual situations). Consider a dive over a beautiful Acropora reef with a dangling rope ready to get snagged in the branches of the coral. Even an all-rock reef offers a similar snagging potential. One should always strive to streamline ones equipment by eliminating dangling consoles and other "doo dads" that can potentially snag the diver and damage the reef. I have actually seen someone get their console caught in branching coral, causing the diver to panic and break the coral (very sad).

The real solution to your problem is to get another dive buddy. A diver that uses hands for swimming and kicks you in the face is neither a good dive buddy nor a skilled diver. A good dive buddy swims along your side, not ahead or behind unless you are entering a constriction in a wreck or cave. A good dive buddy will also exchange OKs ever 30 seconds or so. My dive buddy and I use light as a primary form of communication (even during the day). There is a fairly standard vocabulary that is expressed by specific movements of the light. In any case tethering yourself to a bad dive buddy still leave you stuck with a bad dive buddy. I strongly suggest you either get your buddy to work with you as a team, or find someone else.

[sammiefish]

now thats cool stuff...

Ive been planning tech for quite some time. Im planning the purchase of a set of doubles and an OMS or Halcyon plate/wings...

All our diving in the St. Lawrence starts at 100 ft pretty much.

A popular tech dive here is the Roy Jodery... 750ft costal freighter sunk in 1977 after it struck a shoal and was attempting to beach itself on Wellsley Island. it now lies in water starting at 150 ft and goes to 3 something.

Have you been up to the St. Lawrence River.... 100's of years of commercial shipping and 1000 Islands means 10,000 shoals.... ='s hundreds of shipwrecks, many are 1700's era wooden masted schooners... some still in great shape.

[Tech Diver]

Yes, the St. Lawrence River is a great place and Jodery is great wreck (I will be diving her later this month). Its bow is at 150 ft as you said, and its stern goes down to a little over 240 ft. Currents are quite swift and shipping traffic is dangerous, particularly if you are blown off the wreck and have to do a hanging deco mid-channel. You may be interested in a previous thread on the St. Lawrence:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=618422

If you plan on purchasing a backplate/harness/wings, I would take definitely go with Halcyon over OMS. You might also want to take a look at DiveRite. I would caution you against any harnesses with quick-release shoulder buckles as they are potentially more dangerous. A clean simple continuous harness is preferred. As you are probably aware, in technical diving, less is more. For tanks, in cold water (steel) check out Pressed Steel, for warm water (Aluminum) you have a variety of choices. I could go into lots detail on the topic of technical gear but this is probably not the right thread for that. Do feel free to start a new thread or email me if you wish.

[condor13090]

I live in Syracuse...I would love to go diving in the river with you guys anytime this summer...George

[mightymouse]

i just want to thank all of you for sharing these stories because i will be getting certified soon after i get my license in december. ive really learned alot from this thread thanx alot guys

[rottielover]

I just want to 2nd what mightymouse said, I've learned a lot.

I have a question that could become it's own thread....

"Spare Air" product (www.spareair.com) What are some "expert" opinions on this product? At face value it seems like a good idea...

Also what's your opinion on thier saftey kit (these items are in the kit):

This kit includes:
10’ Safety Sausage
Industrial Grade Light Stick
Deluxe Whistle
9’ Buddy Lanyard
Stainless Steel Signaling Mirror
Mesh Kit Bag – fits in BCD pocket

I think my life and my wife's life is well worth the $$$, but is the product worth it? Does it do what it says it can do?

[Tech Diver]

OK, here's my opinion. I really really dislike this product for several reasons. First off, let's look at their "large" version with a 3 cu-ft capacity. If you are down at 100 ft (where the pressure is 4 ATA) those 3 cu-ft shrink down to a mere 0.75 cu-ft because of Boyle's Law (P1 V1 = P2 V2). They claim they can supply 57 SURFACE breaths, which translates to a mere 14 breaths at 100 ft again due to Boyle's Law. Unless a diver has had harassment drill training where your tank valve is shutoff when you least expect it, that diver will be totally panic stricken and will be hyperventilating and sucking breaths like a Hoover. If that diver knows that they have very little time before the SpareAir runs out, they will bolt for the surface and probably get a very serious DCS hit. A better approach is to get a 13 cu-ft pony bottle and ascend normally to the surface with a safety stop. Still better is to do team diving with a good dive buddy and plan your gas usage using the rule-of-thirds (or other comparable methods), where 1/3 of your gas supply is for heading out, 1/3 is for getting back, and 1/3 is reserve to bring your buddy back with you.

As for the other gear, the safety sausage is a good idea if it is durable and has reflective markings that can also be seen by radar. A length of 10 ft sounds a bit excessive as you would probably have a hard time keeping it vertical (4 or 5 ft should be adequate). These are typically butt mounted by tying two bungee loops at the bottom of you backplate or BCD.

Light sticks are not too effective as they are too dim to be seen at a distance. Also, once you break them, they keep glowing and can not be conserved for selected use. A flashlight would be a better choice. The new ones that make use of LEDs have a very long burn time.

Whistles are good to have and are rather inexpensive. However, don't expect to be heard unless someone is fairly close and not using a motor.

A jon line (buddy lanyard) is convenient in high current environments if you want to tether yourself to the ascent line. This is a good idea and does not take up much space.

I am neutral about the mirror. In full daylight I suspect that a bright orange marker would have a better chance to be seen. At night it obviously doesn't work.

I really don't like mesh bags. They get snagged on just about everything. I have pockets on both my dry-suit and wet suit (you can get glue-ons), which inside have a big bungee loop. Since every single "portable" item I have has a bolt-snap on it. I can reach in my pockets and pull everything out without loosing a single item. I merely unclip what I need, and re-clip what I don't need. Everything is neat, organized, and out of the way until you need it.

[rottielover]

I agree that planning and using "rule of 1/3's" is def. the best idea, and diving using the buddy system probly should be a "must" for rec. divers.

I also think a product like this must NOT be relied upon ("it's OK that I'm at 100psi @ 120ft, cause I have this"[duh]), but I can imagine senerio's where having even 10 more breaths of air could save your butt, or someone else's. For technical diving, I would think a pony bottle would probly be a "must", but for rec. divers this looks to be the "mini pony".

Though I have to say I don't like the idea of "handing off" the bottle to an OOA diver that's probly in a panic, I can see it if that calms them down, then you get them on your octo to bring them up...(maybe), but like I said, hypotheticals are just that. I was thinking that a product like this would keep you from doing that "60ft emergancy ascent" they teach (or is it 30 ft) ...

I guess I can see both the pro's and con's of this product, it seems to me they are selling it a bit out of whack ("save yourself, bla bla") ... but like I said I can imagine senerio's where it could save the day.

At any rate, I'm not going to be buying one anytime soon, if ever, but it's nice to get opinion's on different products out there.





Are any of the safty sausages "self inflate" models? Or do they all have to be manually inflated?

[Tech Diver]

Originally posted by rottielover
Are any of the safty sausages "self inflate" models? Or do they all have to be manually inflated?
Yes there are models with compressed gas cartridges, but if you are deep and it goes off accidentally YOU ARE SCREWED. Most can be attached to your inflator hose if you don't want to manually inflate.

[David P]

I had one of the cheapy flourescent orange garbage bag sausages, I just replaced it with a Dive Rite reusable marker. I just had to try it out and it only took one big breath to fill it. It also has an interesting mouth piece Im not sure if I like, it has a "jamb nut" that prevents you from pushing on the mouth piece wich is necessary to inflate it. Im thinking this is to keep the inside of the tube dry, but I would worry in a stressfull emrgency you may have a problem unscrewing it, pushing in this, blowing on that...

[Oldude]

My wife and I go diving on all our tropical holidays and reading this thread has reminded me of the importance of reviewing the basics before each dive. I have had my reg kicked out of my mouth at 75' but found my reg in good time. It is wise to go over a plan before each dive.
This thread is a great reminder and wake up call.
Thanks,
Greg

[ReefWreak]

I'm a beginning SCUBA student in my college's Academic Dive Program, and I can definatly say that reading this thread has mentally prepared me with an idea of what could happen and how it is best dealt with. I believe that reading this, along with my training that I'm recieving will definatly prepare me for real time diving. That and that I'm not diving in NY. Normally I hate living in south Florida, but I think for this occasion, I prefer SoFL to NY.

Thanks all for your advice!

[Paul B]

That and that I'm not diving in NY. Normally I hate living in south Florida, but I think for this occasion, I prefer SoFL to NY.

You mean you don't like diving in NY. The last time I dove here the visability was almost a foot, thats almost twice as good as it was the time before. Be a man. Anyone can dive when you can actually see something.
Paul
:lol:

[David P]

Warm clear waters of FL, wrecks or Jersey.... I'd lean towards Jersey. Add in the caves of Florida (and the training of course) eww tough call

[sammiefish]

dove a lake up here in central ny... yeah... ice!!!
OK, OK,.. its a little dark but the vis is always great in february under the ice!

[Corruptor]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6664718#post6664718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David P
Add in the caves of Florida:thumbsup:

My wife and I do safety / emergency drills almost every time we exit. Lights out, air shares, valve shut off drills, lost line, lost diver... It's a big list.

We've had a few issues under water, mostly equipment problems. A couple of regulators with leaking high pressure seats, a blown pressure gauge o-ring, a couple of flooded flashlights, one broken fin strap, and one canister light that continually shut itself off. Really nothing to get worked up over, but enough to turn the dives.

Oh yeah, add about 20 fouled reels to that list :lol:

[melev]

Corruptor,

[welcome]

[rickyscuba]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=3196258#post3196258 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luminary
In my recent trip down to Dominica, there were two situations that happened that could have ended badly.

The first was purely an accident. It could have been avoided, but not by my control. I was swimming along peacefully stopping here and there to take some photos when all of a sudden, BAM!, I got kicked in the side of my head, knocked my regulator out of my mouth and my mask off of my head. Not a good thing in 90' of water! Thankfully I'm very comfortable with and without my gear and I was able to recover.

The other incident had the capacity to be much more serious. The dive profile was to make a big circle out from the boat and around the reef starting at about 70' down.. I had my camera gear and my wife was diving with her video gear. About 25 minutes into the dive, in about 35' of water, I noticed her having a lot of trouble staying down. I swam over to her and held on to a rock and her to let her calm down and deflate her BCD. At this point, we're not sure what happened, but I think she was starting to panic and pressed her inflator instead of the deflator because her BCD inflated fully. Not good. After that, things began to spiral downhill. She paniced even more started jerking around. Some of the wires from her lights got tangled and pulled out the inflator hose to her BCD.

At this point she was about ready to bolt to the surface (my arms hurt for several days from holding her down). I made her drop her video gear, plugged her hose back in and calmed her down a bit. We still couldn't get her BCD deflated, mainly because she was still freaked out and I couldn't hold her, hold the rock and deflate her gear all at the same time. After some consideration and a review of my guages and the situation at hand I decided that we needed to ascend, even though it would be fast and would be an emergency ascent (at this point we were in less than 30' of water).

There are a couple of lessons that I learned from this (and hopefully she did too, we did "debrief" afterwards with the divemaster).

1. She needs to be a bit more comfortable with her gear. She completely forgot about the lower back deflator which would have corrected the situation before it got out of hand.

2. Her video gear is not more important than her safety. She was too focused on it once things started getting bad. Were this to happen again, I'd either clip her gear off onto my harness, or just leave it on the bottom and retrieve it after safely surfacing her.

3. It didn't occur to me until we were at the surface to use my knife to puncture her BCD. In retrospect, I think what I did was still the best option, but were this to happen in deeper water or in a more dangerous profile, I would not hesitate.

4. We had been diving 32% EAN on all of our dives. However, we had basically been diving air profiles since we were the only Nitrox divers on the trip and we basically stuck with the group. I can't tell for sure, but I'm pretty convinced that the additional safety factors involved in the higher mix was influential in not having any injuries.

5. It would have been better to leave her inflator hose disconnected after it was pulled out. There was already some problem with the BCD being too inflated. At the time, we did not know if it was user error or a problem with the equipment. If it was the equipment, reconnecting it was the wrong thing to do. However, I would not have been able to explain this to her while she was panicing underwater, so even if it was technically the better thing to do, reconnecting it was important in stabilizing the situation.

I can't stress how important the after dive discussions, both with ourselves and several other divemasters and instructors was.



I think that during that immersion mandatory steps for the safe diving were avoided. Unfortunately many divers commit the same error during vacations.

First of all it is necessary to familiarize itself with the equipment, or rented or own. Second don’t over task; this prevents the diver to concentrates in more important things like its depth, position, air gauge etc.

Just my 2 cents

[Mr_Flibble]

My 2 cents :)

I suffer from mild vertigo I can usually keep it under control.
however I was on a night dive on a small wreck, I had dived the site several times before, I was used to the area I knew where I was and all was going well until I lost my budy and the virtigo kicked in and I started to panic I couldn't tell up from down and my boyancy control started to go a bit strange.
Next thing I know my reg had been kicked out of my mouth and my training kicked in I calmed down recovered my mouthpiece located my buddy (who decided to ascend a few meters that's why they disappeared.) and continued with the dive.

Basically training and practice is the best policy.
Since then I don't really seem to get the virtigo anymore (although I'm not telling my friend as he's the one that always has to go up ladders).

[jgshuwei]

Thank you guys for all the advise. I'm a new diver with little experiences. All these incidents will remind me to get well prepared for all my future diving trips.

I've 4 diving trips this year in Redang Island, Malaysia, 3 of them was taking my PADI liciense. I've passed up to Rescue Diver because I wanted to get prepare should anything happen to me or my buddy. I've noticed, the more I've learned, the more careful I am now. So far I've never encounter any bad experience but doesn't mean that I won't have it in the future. I really like diving! As my instructor always says,"The worst day of diving is better then the best day of working!"

Cheers

[joesynodontis]

just did a dive near the california coast....with safety in mind...no incidents except for a rogue spear from one of the spear fishermen just missed a diver.....that is an accident waiting to happen.

[roblack]

I was recently diving for lobsers south of Miami, and my dive buddy (my wife) decided not to come. We left a friend on the boat, and a good friend of mine (but not my usual dive buddy) descended before me. I was a little out-of-breath getting my gear together and jumping in the water, so I waited a minute before descending. When I got down, I did not see him and the visibility was not so great (20-30 feet). I decided to look for lobsters and figured I would run into him soon, as he usually is scooting all over the place and is a bit too comfortable on his own. Well, I never did see him, and after chasing a huge sea turtle and finding a few small lobsters (didn't take em), I decided I should ascend soon. But I couldn't find the boat from underwater after heading back to where I thought it was. It was mini-season, and there were alot of boats on the water, you could hear them zooming about, and I was afraid that I could get hit if I ascended. I remembered that I had just got an inflatable flourescent tube that could easily be seen from far away, and figured that I would inflate it a little so when I came up boaters could see it and would be able to avoid me. I should have waited until I at the surface, because after blowing just a little air in it, the tube started pulling me to the surface way too fast. I tried turning my head down and kicking to counteract the rise, and soon felt my flippers flopping on the surface. My ascension meter on the dive computer was going nuts, and I was frightened that I had really messed up. Fortunately, I was only in about 30-35 feet of water and had not been down too long, and as far as I can tell, I am okay (debatable :)). I did have a bad headache afterwards, and learned a few valuable lessons. 1) Don't blow up any device until you are at the surface. 2) Stay with your buddy. 3) Plan your dive well, and remember where your boat is. 4) Know your gear extremely well. Hope my mistakes can help someone avoid worse.

[sammiefish]

on the warning buoy thing...
If you can swing it... you should
get yourself a reel of string....
inflate the sausage at 30+ feet
and allow it to go to the surface
attached to the string... then,
should a boat be coming by,
you are less likely to get wacked
... your marker is already at the
surface well before you ascend

[Paul B]

When I got down, I did not see him and the visibility was not so great (20-30 feet).

Wow. Our visability in the western Long Island Sound rarely is more than 3'. It's usually about 2

[JokerGirl]

I got my PADI Advanced Open Water and Rescue Safety Diver Certification through my university a few years back as elective courses. They were both 12 week courses, twice a week for 3 hours each. One night was in a classroom, the other was in a pool. Due to this, my instructors (there were 3) had lots of time to work with people on an individual basis and to teach us a lot of safety stuff. Several of the things was being able to swim two laps without a mask, emergency ascents etc...

Needless to say, on my first dive in the quarry, I panicked about 15ft down. I missed the group dive, and my instructor took me around separately. After that I was fine and completed the rest of my dives fine.

My parents took me and my boyfriend to Hawaii the same year and I did my first ocean dives. I didn't have any trouble with my anxiety, but ended up running into some trouble. I had been sick the entire time I had been there, so was diving on the last possible day I could and still be safe getting on a plane (and not have my sinuses explode on the dive).

There had been a tropical storm coming in, so the water was very choppy, and I got disoriented on my safety stop. An old man was on the dive and was just coming down when I grabbed onto the anchor line. My dive master stopped to help him get down real quick, and in the mess of it all I had shifted my way to the surface without knowing it because the line was bobbing around in the water wildly while I was avoiding the old man. Thinking that my dive master was right behind me, I got on the boat. My dive master had no clue where I was. He did his safety stop, and surfaced to find me eating some cookies. I still feel bad that I had worried him.

After that, they were worried about letting me do my second dive, but I had gotten at least 10 minutes in on my safety stop. I did my second dive with no problems. Due to the tropical storm, the second dive was ended early. By the time my parents picked me up at the dive shop, there were 70mph winds.

I learned a huge lesson that day not to let commotion around me keep me away from what I am supposed to be doing.



I would love to do some more PADI courses and possibly get my dive master, but diving in rock quarries and having to use dry suits just doesn't excite me. The water was so cold during our certification dives that dry suits were a must. Never again...

[michika]

I also did a PADI open water course through my university, and I felt like I had a great instructor. We met two nights a week for 3 hours a night for 4 months. What I really liked was that our course was much longer then most people's but it was combined with a CPR class, and we spent a lot of time on the basics. We discussed lots of stuff that wasn't even in the handbook, and I feel I would be far better prepared to dive after my course then a course of the same name my brother took at a local shop.

What I liked though was how practical my instructor was, he taught everything 3 ways, and he made it really fun. For the last 3 weeks of classes we played games where he would set up treasure hunts, randomly shut the lights off, or come up and flash cue cards at you. I really appreciate how much effort he put into making some habits second nature to us, and I'm sure many of his lessons will stick with me long after I have graduated.

Unfortunately the downside was that the course ran September - December, and in December ice tends to form in Canada. I'm hoping to do a refresher course soon, and then complete my open water dives. I'm hoping to make use of my certification this summer as I travel to Jamaica for a wedding.

[Tech Diver]

It's good that your instructor made use of flash cards and "harassment" drills. My technical dive instuctors used to shut off my valves, pull my mask off, and tear out my regulator. One of the primary ways to develop a calm way of dealing with emergencies is to get unexpected issues thrown at you in a controlled environment (even if it's just rapidly responding to flash cards).

[sharkmanstudio]

if you want to get some practice with no mask breathing take a snorkel only onto the bath or pool and practice breathing with your face in the water it will train you how to breath through your mouth only whith is the biggest problem people have when there mask comes off.

[1BADREEF]

So this may be a dumb question as I am not a certified diver, but I plan to be soon. So what do you do if your are down 90' and you get water in your mask?

[billsreef]

Clearing your mask is as simple as placing your hand on the top of the mask, lightly pressing on it, tilting your head up, and exhaling through your nose. That will clear the water from your mask. It's also something the instructor will make you practice when you take your certification course ;)

[murphysfish]

not a hardcore dive whereever the water is right now, mostly doing it for the reefs and vacations. but totally liking it right now will be certified by the first of next year

[Paul B]

I am not a certified diver, but I plan to be soon. So what do you do if your are down 90' and you get water in your mask

Bill is correct, but while diving you will probably always get a little water in your mask and will have to clear it often.
Unfortunately masks don't always fit our faces exactly and if you have a beard as I did for years when I started diving, you have to clear it on almost every breath. :smokin:

[dougie]

the only thing i can say from experience, is make sure that your tank is as tight on your BCD as possible, dont get to excited about the dive and rush threw the setup.check and then check again. i did a dive after i first got cert, and really messed up by not checking my gear properly. my tank wasnt really tight on my BC and when i got to the bottom, lucky only about 10m, a current came through and my tank became loose and near fell off, this would have taken my regs with it,if i was in deep water and it had of fell, i would have been in alot of trouble.

[Fin Mike]

Always were a pony rig.

[dcombs44]

Agreed. One of my first dives in Mexico, we were rushed to get our gear together, and I didn't have a chance to get my bc wet before strapping my tank on, and about 10 minutes into the dive at about 40 feet (on the bottom thankfully), my tank came loose. I was able to stay calm and have the dive master help me get it strapped back in without having to remove my gear, but it pays to always take your time in getting ready.

Unfortunately, I didn't have an experienced buddy, as my wife was only resort certified. That was also a mistake.

Live (thankfully) and learn.

[Fin Mike]

As I'm reading some of these stories on this board and I must say that most of this stuff is completely avoidable with a little common sense. I am a spearfisherman. Spearfishing is extremely dangerous and highly problematic. Take the blood in the water and the shark aspect out of it, and you still have a recipe for disaster. As I first started to dive, I would ask my (much more experienced) buddy about some of the pitfalls of diving and how I could avoid them. His response was "where do I start". That was a good answer, because only experience can teach someone properly how to deal with life and death situations.
First, 99% of all accidents can be avoided by using common sense and knowing and feeling comfortable with your equipment. I can't be more clear than that. It will save your life. Second, wear a redundant breathing system such as a pony bottle, not spare air. Spare air will not save your life if you are 125' down. A 30 cu ft pony will. Enjoy yourself (that's what it's all about) but be prepared for the worst. I almost always get vertigo upon ascent, but I've learned to deal with it. A newbee that got vertigo at 100' would FREEK OUT. It is very concerning for the inexperienced, let alone getting your reg knocked out of your mouth by a speared 60 lbs cobia at 115'. The last thing I would like to say is DO NOT PANIC. Panic will kill you. Confidence not only in yourself, but also in your equipment goes a long way. Don't be stupid, be safe.
Don't go into decompression (deco). Always continue breathing, and do not ascend more than one foot per second and you will be OK. If your new, stay above 50 ft, and get comfortable with your equipment. I can't state this enough. Never blow anything up at depth that you want to hold on to. This could surely bend you.

[Paul B]

The biggest problem we have here with New York diving is the visability which ranges from zero to maybe on a good day 3'
In the western Sound where I have done most of my diving there is a lot of history and shipwrecks. Many of them are tugboats and most of them have steel cables, wires and fishing line all over them. You have to be able to cut this stuff off of you and your equipment in total blackness. A good knife is essential and sometimes I brought a wire cutter with me also.

[billdogg]

I had been certified about 2 years - maybe 50 dives - I was diving the local quarry - Gilboa Stone Quarry - with the guy i got certified with and a couple of more experienced divers. I had my video with us, and was at the back of the pack, so i kicked like mad to get in front to get a shot of everybody going past. No problem, right??? Did I mention that we were at about 110', where the spring feeds the quarry, and it was early April? the water temp was maybe 40. I was diving a USD reg that was meant for shallow, warm water use. Guess what froze!!!! lucky for me, the lead diver saw what was happening, and as soon as we both understood that a freeflowing reg meant only that it was time to surface, thats what we did. No harm, no foul. Did I learn my lesson??? young dumb me??? no way. The very next weekend, just my buddy and i were on the same proflie at the same spot in the quarry. I was lead diver, this time at about 120', when yup - the darn thing froze again. I kinda went "well crap - time to surface and buy a new reg!!!" I turned to locate my buddy - he was 20 or 30' behind me kneeling in the mud - NARCED TO THE GILLS! I swam over to him in a cloud of bubbles, shook him and pointed to myself and gave the out of air sign, and then waved good bye. (I was down to maybe 1000psi by this time) His eyes got saucer big as he came up after me trying to give me his primary reg. I kept waving him off - I wqas ok, just had to surface. At about 100' he took a breath - still narced - without putting his reg back in his mouth. OOPS!!! All I could do was look down at him from about 20 feet above and hope that he was able to choke it out and get his s*&t together, because I HAD TO SURFACE. luck was on his side - the fog lifted as he continued his ascent, and he made it ok to the surface. As soon as I hit the surface my reg thawed, I swam to the dock, got out, and went from the quarry directly to my local dive shop and bought a regulator made for ICE DIVING!!! He, on the other hand, got so spooked by those events that he has not been back in the water since. It is now almost 20 years and over 1000 dives later. I have ahd other issues underwater, but that was a lesson well learned. I now buy only the best equipment i can, I have taken every training course I can (up to full cave) and never dive without a completely seperate and redundant air source.

I sorta figure that I can do a whole bunch of things underwater, but I can't grow gills!!!

[David P]

so I shouldn't say anything about being @ 120' on a single 80, leaving your team mate, especially one that is impaired, use of helium (it was 20 years ago)?

another post a few up said always dive with a pony rig... what size, hopefully a 40. Do the math on a 100' dive with an Al80. Figure your at 4 ATA, the fit hits the shan, so your gas consumption jumps to ONLY 1 CFM, give yourself only 1 minute to deal with the situation, you just sucked 4 cubic feet, for easy math you come up to 70' and do your one minute deepstop, that's 2 mintues and we'll round down to 3 ata so thats 6 more cubic feet, 1 minute travel to 40 feet, (round down even more) 2 cuft, 3 minute safety stop another 4 cuft or so, thats 16 cubic feet, dont forget you want to leave at least 500 psi to make up for SPG variances. What if your buddy is up the same creek, then you double your gas and you're at 32 cubic feet.

[Fin Mike]

IMO, anybody that does a dive to 120 on an AL 80, needs to have at least 1. a lot of experience 2. the goal of just doing a very quick dive or 3. having there head examined. I've dove to 90 on one, but you can be assured, that I have my 30 cuft pony along with me.

[Kenmx10]

I dove 110' on a 60steel for my advanced check out dive with 30% o2. Not by choice. I rod the computer to the limits and counted my breaths. Now I have hp120's .

[Tech Diver]

Using DecoPlanner and assuming a SAC rate of 0.85 cu-ft/min and EAN 30, a dive to 110' for merely 13 minutes would exceed the capacity of your 60 cu-ft tank. This includes a 1 minute stop at 30' and another 1 minute stop at 20' (which really is not long enough since it takes at least 2 minutes for one complete cycle of your circulatory system).

Using the "Rule of Thirds", a maximum profile for a 60 cu-ft tank would be 6 minutes at 110' with a 3 minute stop at 20'.

I can't imagine why the instructor would choose to take you down with such little gas supply.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13993242#post13993242 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kenmx10
Not by choice.

I think this is an erroneous assumption that gets many divers in trouble. The bottom line is, you always have the final say on making a particular dive and particular dive profile with the equipment at hand. If the equipment you have with you is not adequate for a particular dive, you and only you have the choice of whether or not to make that dive. No one else can make do something if you don't agree to it. Your safety under the water is solely your responsibility. Yes having a buddy gives you some options should trouble occur, but you should always avoid trouble to the best of your ability...even if it means telling an instructor or dive master off for something stupid like expecting you to make deep dive on a mere 60cuft tank.

Now I'm not saying this to rail on you, but to make sure you know your safety is in your own hands and you have the right to call any dive at any time for any reason.

[Tech Diver]

I agree with Bill 100%. You should _never_ be pressured into making a dive.

In technical diving we have a very strict rule: anyone can "call a dive" (abort it) for any reason at any time without question. That means if your equipment is not adequate, you don't feel comfortable with your dive buddy, you don't feel well, you have a bad premonission, the dive site makes you "feel creepy" or any other reason, you should call the dive.

[Mad Scientist]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13791892#post13791892 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billdogg
I had been certified about 2 years - maybe 50 dives - I was diving the local quarry - Gilboa Stone Quarry - with the guy i got certified with and a couple of more experienced divers. I had my video with us, and was at the back of the pack, so i kicked like mad to get in front to get a shot of everybody going past. No problem, right??? Did I mention that we were at about 110', where the spring feeds the quarry, and it was early April? the water temp was maybe 40. I was diving a USD reg that was meant for shallow, warm water use. Guess what froze!!!! lucky for me, the lead diver saw what was happening, and as soon as we both understood that a freeflowing reg meant only that it was time to surface, thats what we did. No harm, no foul. Did I learn my lesson??? young dumb me??? no way. The very next weekend, just my buddy and i were on the same proflie at the same spot in the quarry. I was lead diver, this time at about 120', when yup - the darn thing froze again. I kinda went "well crap - time to surface and buy a new reg!!!" I turned to locate my buddy - he was 20 or 30' behind me kneeling in the mud - NARCED TO THE GILLS! I swam over to him in a cloud of bubbles, shook him and pointed to myself and gave the out of air sign, and then waved good bye. (I was down to maybe 1000psi by this time) His eyes got saucer big as he came up after me trying to give me his primary reg. I kept waving him off - I wqas ok, just had to surface. At about 100' he took a breath - still narced - without putting his reg back in his mouth. OOPS!!! All I could do was look down at him from about 20 feet above and hope that he was able to choke it out and get his s*&t together, because I HAD TO SURFACE. luck was on his side - the fog lifted as he continued his ascent, and he made it ok to the surface. As soon as I hit the surface my reg thawed, I swam to the dock, got out, and went from the quarry directly to my local dive shop and bought a regulator made for ICE DIVING!!! He, on the other hand, got so spooked by those events that he has not been back in the water since. It is now almost 20 years and over 1000 dives later. I have ahd other issues underwater, but that was a lesson well learned. I now buy only the best equipment i can, I have taken every training course I can (up to full cave) and never dive without a completely seperate and redundant air source.

I sorta figure that I can do a whole bunch of things underwater, but I can't grow gills!!!

Sounds like you were lucky - from what I've read a fair amount of people have died in that quarry

[Kenmx10]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13994782#post13994782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tech Diver
Using DecoPlanner and assuming a SAC rate of 0.85 cu-ft/min and EAN 30, a dive to 110' for merely 13 minutes would exceed the capacity of your 60 cu-ft tank. This includes a 1 minute stop at 30' and another 1 minute stop at 20' (which really is not long enough since it takes at least 2 minutes for one complete cycle of your circulatory system).

Using the "Rule of Thirds", a maximum profile for a 60 cu-ft tank would be 6 minutes at 110' with a 3 minute stop at 20'.

I can't imagine why the instructor would choose to take you down with such little gas supply.

The dive was the Eagle in Key Largo. It was actually 106' . Actual bottom time 19min. 3min stop at 20'. Tank almost dry. Everyone else had 80's. It was the last tank filled with Nitrox . I guess the Charter service was too lazy to fill another. I should have refused it. But It was the last tank with 30%O2, and Nitrox was one of my credits for ADV. Open Water. My instructor didnt know till we were on the boat and out to sea. My uwatec is air Integration, so she said to keep an eye on it and leave some air in the tank.

[Tech Diver]

"I should have refused it. But It was the last tank with 30%O2, and Nitrox was one of my credits for ADV. Open Water."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ask yourself, if you ran out of gas and didn't make it back, would it have been worth the risk you took?

Whenever I dive I always remember what one of my technical dive intructors said (Brian Carney, President of TDI/SDI), "The number-one mission of the dive is to come back alive."

It is very unfortunate that true dive planning in not taught until you become a technical diver. By that I mean knowing *ahead* of time how long your gas will last, when it is time to "turn the dive", etc. Determining a precise schedule and following it is exactly what Hal Watts meant when he coined the phrase "Plan your dive and dive your plan." This, above all, is my biggest complaint about the weakness in the courses for certifying recreational divers with regard to safety.

[Kenmx10]

I agree 100%. Now, I always plan my entire day the night before. Not only for my safety , but for the safety of those around me as well. I see alot of people getting away from it because of computers. I hope this doesnt lead to alot accidents in the future. To me its part of diving and I enjoy the advanced preparatrion.
I learned a good lesson from it though. I went out and got HP120's shortly after. I get my air in advance . I learned you cant rely on others to make sure you have what you need. You'll end up short like I was. Plus, the whole time I was down I couldnt take my eyes off the computer. It was beeping like crazy and I had to keep shallowing up the tower every couple of minutes. I downloaded the dive in my computer afterwards. Most the dive was either in the yellow or red. Even my safety stop. At that point I didnt care If they got their tank back bone dry.

I know there's alot of people who just want to get their certification card and thats about as far as they go with the learning process. And rely on someone else to tell them how long they can stay down. And how deep they can go. Alot of people think the computer is like some cruise control, where you just set it and cruise along. I think we may see some problems with this in the future. Thank goodness for DAN.

I've been contemplating Tech Diving. I want to take it to the next Level. But I dont have anyone else thats interested , And its not my profession, so I would be all alone. I've thought about trying to getting into the field somehow, something other than teaching OPen Water. But Im not sure what the opportunities are and if it would be steady work.

Have you used a rebreather Tech Diver?

[Tech Diver]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14115569#post14115569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kenmx10
Have you used a rebreather Tech Diver?

I never have. Thus far I've been strictly an open-circuit diver. For some reason, I've have never had the disire to try one.

As for finding someone with whom to learn/do technical diving, I suggest contacting tech diving instructors in your area. Their contact information can be found by going to the web sites of the various training organizations. My one suggestion is NOT to get trained in Deep Air (a course that some agencies like PADI actually offer). I feel such training is dangerous and violates a key point in tech diving which is not to get Nitrogen Narcosis.

[Kenmx10]

Is one organization better than the other for tech, Or is Padi a good place to go?

[Tech Diver]

The four that I can think of off the top of my head are IANTD, TDI, NAUI, DSAT (PADI). There are some others that are less well known or not fully recognized. Of those that I mentioned, I would go with someone other than DSAT (PADI). They only started their programs recently and the other three generally train you more rigorously (which is good). Of course, a great deal has to do with the instructor. I have used TDI myself because I was able to be trained by some of the top divers in the field.

[David P]

NAUI has some pretty good material, TDI material is .... there (at best) both agencies leave the bulk of the instruction up to the teacher. If you want some serious training and it is not easy look into GUE. Their minimum standards are pretty tough. You start with their "fundimentals" class where you learn gear config, valve drills, proper trim (horizontal not at a 45), I had to do valve drills with no mask on while hovering less than a foot off of the bottom. I was instructed by an old schooler, who through multiple failures at me, buddy lost his mask, I was completely out of gas, my buddy had his back up reg fail, and we were in an over head invrionment. That was pretty easy, what was tough was learing to stay horizontal, go from 10 feet to 20 to 30 to 20 to 10 all with 30 second pauses at depths and then 30 second travel. Once we figured out how to do that, I lost my mask and had to do it... THEN you take their Tech 1 class....

[David P]

Ive tried rebreathers.... I think they are a good tool. They scare the crap out of me and Ill stick with open circuit. However for photography, I think they're the bees knees. No bubbles gets the animals in closer.

[Tech Diver]

I agree that some of the best training is through GUE. The only reason I didn't mention it by name is that not everyone recognizes that organization's certification program. As long as it has been brought up, you should take a look at the DIR approach to diving, or at least the Hogarthian configuration. This is the approach that I personally use, but some are reluctant to embrace it because it is very specific on how you equip yourself.

[davocean]

I have a pretty good one.
A couple years ago we went out for opening night of lobster season.
When I came up, as soon as I got to the boat, fog came in REALLY heavy, thick, and it came in fast.
I was lucky I got to the boat first, but many other divers didn't.
The fact it was opening night made it worse, due to the fact it was a total zoo of boats/divers.
Coast gaurd came on the radio, and said ALL boats w/out sonar were to drop anchor and stay put till it lifted.
Many divers, not able to find their boat spent the night on boats owned by new good friends!
That was a long cold night for me in an open boat in a wet wetsuit!
To make matters worse, we weren't far out of harbor, and not far from shipping lanes.
No one admitted fear, but when we heard the loud engines of big ships, well, we were all awefully quiet!
Especially knowing the current was pulling that direction, and we were anchored in sand.
I now make sure to keep a sealed bag w/ dry warm clothes, and 2 whistles attached to my gear(one whistle w/ a back up compass).
It made me think about how most of my night bug dives were from shore, and what if that happened then?
So I also check compass readings b4 dives(I also learned this year that thanks to getting older and needing reading glasses, I can't see the numbers well, so I have 2 strips of duct tape marking way to shore)
And I don't think I'll do another opening night so close to a zoo of boats/divers and that close to the harbor mouth!

[Tech Diver]

A very important item to always carry with you is a light - even during the day. Remember, if you are washed out to sea, day will eventually turn into night and the easiest way to be found in the dark is with a light. You can even signal SOS by moving your hand over the lens. But don't signal by turning the lamp on and off, because you might eventually break the switch.

By the way, I also need reading glasses so I have a mask with +2 diopter magnifyer ground in. Works like a charm!

[davocean]

Most of my dives are at night for lobbys these days, so I have 2 lights, and my main light has 2 bulbs as well on seperate switches.
The reading glasses are very new(and I didn't realize that once you start using them, you're pretty blind w/out them)
I need to figure what I'm going to do.
My vision is fine except small letters/numbers
My concerns are;
A- in 30yrs of diving, I finally got a mask that fits absolutely perfect, comfy, and seals well even w/ a goatee.
B-how expensive is a mask w/ magnifier
C-am I going to lose perception/start chasing shorts!LOL

[Tech Diver]

A - You can keep your mask and have just the glass replaced.
B - If I recall it costs about $120 just for the glass and $170 if you buy a whole mask.
C - They are actually bi-focals so your normal view is unaffected. To use them you look down. I don't even notice that I have them.
D - I don't remember the manufacturer.

[davocean]

Very cool, thanks.
That's not too bad, I'll have to look into finding where to have that done around here.

[billsreef]

A friend of mine uses some stick on magnifying lens from the drugstore. The sort of thing they sell for folks that don't want to give in and go to the eye doc for a proper prescription. They stick on at the bottom of the mask lens so they don't interfere with normal vision, yet allow him to read his gauges.

[Tech Diver]

I actually tried those but was disappointed in their quality. They are made of flexible plastic which made the image too distorted and the lenses kept coming off too easily. They also cost about $50.

[davocean]

Maybe stick it on my compass for now anyway.

[Tecdiverfl]

I do about a hundread dives a year and it blwos me away some of the stupid things I see people do

[Paul B]

Watch what you eat before you dive.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/wetsuit.jpg

[moneyman6891]

I got certified 4 years ago when I was 13. My was one of the divers that retreived the boosters off of the Shuttle for 26 years so I was around diving all my life and always bugged him to go. Well when i got certified we went down to the keys and the first dive since getting my certification my dad came ove rto me and knocked my mask off and ripped the regulator out of my mouth. I freaked out and started to surface when he grabbed my ankels and held me down and made me slow down and put my reglator back in and go find my mask. When he sufaced later he gave me as stern talking to and told me that was a test to see if I could would know what to do. Im glad he did it then because I now know what to do and how to handle the situtation.
My worst experience was when we where spearfishing offshore in 120 feet of water of the coast of Port cannaveral and my dads friend and me had just got down when he swims over very quickly saying that he is out of air already. We had to buddy breath and make our safety stop from 120 feet. When we got on the boat it turned out that someone else had put the empty tanks into the compartment where the full tanks go and he grabbed an empty tank instead of a full tank. Luckily I was their.

[aalhait]

I like Henry Cho's Emergency Program...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7toJkB82vTM&feature=related

When he dives, he never dives with anybody he knows... When people try to be friendly and try to talk to him... He's like, NO, I don't need to know your name... (At the 1st sight of a Shark, I'm taking my knife and may have to stab you to run away) :D

Sorry, could not find the exact quote... But this is as close as I remember it...

[melev]

He's very funny, but that video had nothing to do with SCUBA. Go find the right one. :D

[clownfreak]

I'm new to the scuba scene, and I am beginning to worry about the open water diving (or lack there of) and was wondering if anyone has any advice on where to go for more info. I've read all of this thread and would like to know what other things are recommended and more about the "charts". Thanks!

[billsreef]

Probably worth starting a new thread for that discussion, and telling us what training and experience you currently have so that we have a starting point ;)

[clownfreak]

Good idea thanks Bill, its all set up.