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Piero
08/31/2004, 04:53 PM
I've come to the conclusion that paying the extra money for live rock is really unnecessary in this hobby. I think we all should rethink our reasons for using it...

After over 17 years in this hobby, I'm starting to wonder why anyone goes with live rock at all...

I've done all my existing systems with CHEAP dry rock that had the shapes I was looking for(shape is the most important part when aquascaping), then I seeded the tank with a handful of rubble from an established system...or used a couple live pieces I got from a friend's tank....and in a couple months...you'd never know the difference....Coraline alga everywhere...microfauna crawlin all over the place....the works.

I've also witnessed plenty of people over the years pay lots of money for fresh live rock, only to see it all die off and go white during the cycling process...So why are we all still using it? Just to get the small amount of bacteria and micro-fauna that MIGHT make it through the cycling process? Micro-fauna we could easily get free from friends, or for a couple bucks from the LFS?

Remember every time you buy any livestock, we are also re-seeding the system and introducing more microorganisms, microfauna, and coroline alga...and diversifying the ecosystem in the prcess.

So, when you buy live rock:
- You have to cycle it
- All the life on it dies off anyhow
- You are paying more money unnecessarily
- You are paying for water weight

For years I was hung up on getting "fresh" rock just like everyone else...but I really don't see the point....just a waste of money I think.

IMHO I think this hobby is too hung up on getting "live" rock..when people should really just be concentrating on getting dry rock, in great shapes...and just seeding the tank. I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this....

I know those with money-making interests in LR will not like to hear this...but its just my .02, and it has saved me loads of cash, and my tanks and rock looks just as good as any others... :D

CaliforniaDreamer
08/31/2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Piero
I've done all my existing systems with CHEAP dry rock that had the shapes I was looking for(shape is the most important part when aquascaping), then I seeded the tank with a handful of rubble from an established system...or used a couple live pieces I got from a friend's tank....and in a couple months...you'd never know the difference....Coraline alga everywhere...microfauna crawlin all over the place....the works.


Interesting, I am always interested in NOT wasting money, more for other things like lighting. In the tanks you started this way have you noticed a difference in how long it takes for the tank to establish enough bacteria to start adding livestock? How do you start the cycle? Have you noticed a difference in how long the tank takes to mature? Do you ever use a direct seeding method like GARF grunge? Tell us more.

Piero
08/31/2004, 05:17 PM
Since I have reef friends, obtaining a couple rocks to seed the tank, or a handful of gravel from the sump etc is not that difficult. More often than not thoguh, I have acess to established systems in my own home...

but if you don't already have an established reef, or did not by chance know anyone locally with an established tank, you could always get the LFS to give you some grunge from their tanks...

Often when I'm starting a new tank, I use dry rock with great shapes, then I grab a bunch of stuff from my other systems or a friend's system to seed it, including:

- bucket of water from an established tank
- some gravel or rubble
- handful of macro alga fron the refungium

The more you can get, the better. Assuming you have good water chemistry and ample calcium levels, the coraline takes off immediately...

I have not noticed any longer cycling, in fact if anything the cycling is quicker, since you are eliminating the die-off phase. Just recently I re-designed my aquascaping in my main display...

I removed a bunch of smaller boulders, and added three HUGE dry rocks, taking up 1/2 of the rock structure. Two months l;ater....it's all one beautiful, seamless, coraline-encrusted mass.

CaliforniaDreamer
08/31/2004, 05:23 PM
This is exactly what we do with sand. Where do you get your base rock?

Azilla
08/31/2004, 05:27 PM
pics pics pics pics

Jimbo
08/31/2004, 05:30 PM
Exactly what type of rock are you using Piero? Paul B. on this board uses old asphalt chunks. :D

Jim

dabbler@nycap
08/31/2004, 05:31 PM
Gee I wish you had posted this thread before I spent hundreds of dollars on Live Rock. I had soo much trouble cycling it it was not even funny. Watching it all turn milky white and having to remove it and scrub it and change the water. I spent soo much on this rock and the salt that it made me think why did I ever get into this hobby. I am a newbie and am still learning and I think this has to be the best post I have read yet on this forum. What I should have done was find rock that suited my aquascape and bought one live rock to seed the rest, would have been much cheaper because the live rock I ended up with was actually wothless by the time the cycle was over with. Could not get the ammonia under control for weeks, I believe it killed everything.

Piero
08/31/2004, 05:34 PM
I get base rock whenever I find it....I just collect rocks over time that i like the shape of....whether from the LFS, other reefers, or whatever.

no pics now...my lights are all off..but it's not like im preaching something crazy or hard to believe....holdon and I'll post a pic tomorrow...just gotta remind me.

atvdave
08/31/2004, 05:35 PM
What are your thoughts on live sand? I kinda did the same thing but I bought some live rock and mixed it with base rock. I have the base rock on the bottom and live rock on top for looks. The sand I mixed 50/50 live/dry.

Jimbo
08/31/2004, 05:39 PM
Over time your rock obviously becomes live rock as it is colonized with bacteria. However initially I would submit that the bioload capacity of this dead rock is far less than a tank stocked with live rock. If you stock your tank slowly though, which you should anyway I see no problems. :) However for reef purposes, I like the critter diversity that I get with live rock. Tube worms, snails, chitons, limpets, etc. That is really what it's about for me.


Jim

Heinz
08/31/2004, 05:44 PM
#Often when I'm starting a new tank#

how often are you starting over ? or do you have so many tank's in your hause and start always a new tank ?

Keoni
08/31/2004, 05:44 PM
I used this rock they also sell on ebay good stuff
http://www.hirocks.com/

chipster
08/31/2004, 05:45 PM
I used 40lbs dy rock and 25 lbs fresh live rock. I bought my rock from Tropicorium already cycled , never had a spike of ammonia. I can't even try to understand why some people buy 100lbs of rock and have it shipped across the continent. Chip

ohioreef
08/31/2004, 05:45 PM
I started my tank with a 9lb piece of LR and added BR as I got the money. I now have a total of about 55lbs BR with the 9lbs of "actual" LR. My BR is starting to develop corraline and I have noticed plenty of pods running around on it. The BR also has tons of the little red feather dusters growing on it. So I guess my BR has now become LR!!

I think that is a great way to go if you are financially challenged! It may take a little longer for the tank to look "colorful" but then nothing comes fast in this hobby.

KwajRocks
08/31/2004, 05:54 PM
I tried the "plain" rock method before my live rock set up. The rocks I used which were various types of limestone available here in my neck of the woods, and some lava rock. While the limestone seemed to fair well, the lava rock was a hair algae magnet. No matter what I did, the hair algae seemed to love that rock. Over time, I removed all the lava rock and used it in the sump. I replaced this rock with live rock from Tampa Bay Saltwater , which by the way was shipped in water. I had only a very, very small amount of die-off. Although my tank before the live rock had micro-fauna, the amount and diversity now is beyond compare. The old limestone still resides in my tank, but only as base rock. I guess I am a LIVE ROCK fan. Yes, it is more costly than concrete or limestone, but for me the difference is like night and day. The shipping in water made all the difference. There is a wide variety of life that came with the rock - still thriving after 2 1/2 years. Live rock has made my tank much more interesting and worth the $$. There's my 2 cents for what it is worth!!

Piero
08/31/2004, 06:09 PM
I just think anythig you get on "Live" rock, you can get indirectly by seeding and via livestock you add over time, since corals so often come with a rock base and hitchers...

If you think paying a couple hundred dollars xtra is worth it for some tube worms and chitons, etc..well then i guess that's your call. That stuff can be obtained easily...from a couple of rocks from a friend's tank or the LFS.

Well, I always go with Pacific rock as well...since my reef is a pacific biotope mostly...Bot a huge fan of Atlantic rock...but that's me. But I shudder to think of the cost of shipping rock IN water...

My systems have a huge diversity of micro-fauna, tube worms, brittlestars, limpets, and a wide variety of inverts that have hitched a ride in on livestock rocks...all free

And let me be clear...you DO NOT want to use a different KIND of raock..i/e limestone, lavarock etc....not a good idea in my book..

All of my dry rock is dry fiji or marchall rock..the same KIND of rock as live rock, just dry and a helluva lot cheaper. :D

kruxy
08/31/2004, 06:10 PM
As Piero knows, I also have no problem using dry rock in my systems. Of the last 300 lbs of rock that has floated in and out of various tanks I have had, I would say only about 30 lbs of it started out as "live" rock.

Folks who want to dump 15 fish in their tanks a month after they set it up might find some usefullness in live rock immediately, but that kind of husbandry will end up with everything dead shortly anyway. If people are working slowly, letting their systems develop over time, then the slower build up of bacteria levels will not be an issue. Every time you add or remove something from your tank these levels fluxuate anyway.

Most recently I was lucky enough to get about 50 lbs. of primo pieces of dry rock... and I wish I had bought 50 lbs. more when the reefer was selling it. Rock will eventually cover in coraline algae if you have your levels right. Like Piero, I would rather wait a couple months and have control over exactly how my reef will shape up, than just go for whats locally available at $6.00+/lb. in the lfs curing tubs, or the gamble you run on getting what other people pick for you when you order through the mail.

Incidentally it also makes upgrading easy... rinse the rocks off well, soak em over night, and then use them to build the foundation for the reef. Then just add what was in your old tank on top of it so you still get to marvel over the pretty colors.. no cycling, no die-offs, no spikes... :)

KwajRocks
08/31/2004, 06:22 PM
You would be surprised at how inexpensive it is to ship live rock in water.....well the Florida rock went from Florida to Alabama and I picked it up at the airport. I think I paid roughly $1 a pound for shipping. If the rock is "dry" what's the difference in the "type" it is?

35gallonhex
08/31/2004, 06:23 PM
you have no idea how much cheaper this hobby just became for me. OMG TY TY TY hehe maybe a little overthetop but hey when ya got a new body to feed... every little thing helps. ( now on to the lights!)

Ehydo
08/31/2004, 06:25 PM
I have been seriously considering some dry rock. Thanks for the input on successes. I will be buying some this week.

joefish
08/31/2004, 06:27 PM
I'm glad you posted this , I would have never thought of it that way .

One Q? though , do you have to do anyhting to the rock to prepare it for the tank ? Like flush it with a hose , then let it dry ?

KwajRocks
08/31/2004, 06:31 PM
Well, I have to say that the lava rock was definitely a mistake, but the limestone seems to be working fine. It is solid purple just like everything else in the tank.

dieselfish
08/31/2004, 06:38 PM
I totally agree with LR being a waste of money. I have a 200 gallon to fill and I am using the hirocks stuff to add to my existing rock.

surfy
08/31/2004, 06:42 PM
I'm actually starting a new tank with mostly DIY rock. I have other tanks I will add rock from but some of it has bryopsis(bad skimmer, 4yr old DSB) so I am hopeing with all new "top of the line" equipment the algae will go away. Never had an algae problem till about a year ago.

Does anyone know how fast bacteria colonize? I would think it would be fairly quick?
I'm hopeing to get all my SPS into the new tank with in two weeks after setting it up.

This is my first DIY rock(base rock) setup so I have no idea what to expect.

kruxy
08/31/2004, 06:48 PM
As far as prepping dry rock, it really depends on how long it has been dry, and where it came from before you had it. If it is dry baserock like the hirocks stuff, then a good thorough rinse from the hose and an overnight soak in dechlorinated water would suffice. If the rock was previously in a tank, and just sat and dessicated in someones backyard, you might want to put it in a tub of water with a powerhead and let it go for a bit. You might opt to cook the rock, since the idea at this point is to introduce nothing at all. I have rehydrated rock and gotten some off odors before, so flushing it out until it is clean and fresh smelling is a definate good idea.

The stuff I got from hirocks last year had dead insects and other land based detritus in it.. Always rinse it, you never know what is inside the little crevices and cranies.

For the ultimate in safety, you could throw it in a bucket of saltwater with a skimmer and a heater and let it go for a bit, similarly to curing liverock. I have never had to do this myself, but it seems it couldn't hurt.

Rendos
08/31/2004, 06:49 PM
Often when I'm starting a new tank, I use dry rock with great shapes, then I grab a bunch of stuff from my other systems or a friend's system to seed it, including:

- bucket of water from an established tank
- some gravel or rubble
- handful of macro alga fron the refungium

I agree that live rock is not 100% necessary...there are alternatives, but what exactly is the point to adding a bucket of water from an established tank?

Ehydo
08/31/2004, 06:54 PM
From what I have been reading elsewhere on dry rock is that it is a great deal lighter. Did you happen to notice a big difference in size vs weight?

kruxy
08/31/2004, 06:59 PM
I did a test on the weight thing. My last batch was 40.0 lbs. When i was done soaking it, it weighed 42.5 lbs.

I think a lot of weight will depend on the type of rock and its porosity. large dense rock like florida rock will not absorb as much water by mass as lighter holey rock like fiji and marshall, somply due to the fact that there isn't as much room for the water to become trapped after it has been submerged (hypothesis).

Ehydo
08/31/2004, 07:05 PM
I'll take that extra 2.5 lbs right to the bank. It is 5.99-7.99 for live rock here and that is a significant savings. I'll take $15.00 and spend it else where.

cheeto
08/31/2004, 07:20 PM
So hirocks is good holey rock ? I am thinking of upgrading to a larger tank, I already have 40# of nice rock. Dont want to shell out another 300 for more rock =)

ohioreef
08/31/2004, 07:38 PM
I just bought some HiRocks rubble and it was great. I just wish I'd bought some of the bigger stuff before I got my tank full!

Piero
08/31/2004, 07:55 PM
I don't know if there is any benefit at all to using a couple buckets of water from an established tank...just somehting I do out of habit i guess....it's probably pointless now that i thik of it....Although there is the possibility of palegic microfauna that may be transferred in the warer, and maybe the chance of bacteria in the water collumn....idunno.

Yes, you definitely want to make sure your dry rock is as clean as possible...any exposure to chemicals, and dust particles is a concern. And any organic matter in/on the rock will only add unecessary nutrients to the system. i usually soak in ro/di water and scrub a bit....

Ron
08/31/2004, 08:06 PM
I am putting together a new 90 gallon system and plan on going with dry rock plus the rock from my 30 gallon. This will be the second time I have done this. I personally find the dry rock to be indistinguishable from the live rock once it has had a year or two to grow. It can be a bit ugly in the beginning. However, it's really kinda' nice to watch everything in your tank develop including the rocks.

Ron
:strooper:

cward
08/31/2004, 08:12 PM
Another good point to Piero's post is you wouldn't have to worry about introducing a nuisance algae to your tank via the live rock.

mmgm
08/31/2004, 08:14 PM
Piero


Great thread..... I purchased some hirock base a few months ago and slowly aclimating in my fuge...... This is a great savings compared to purchasing LR from the start......

I am in the process of upgrading and went to order some more base rock from hirock..... To my suprprise :eek1: hirock is almost priced at the same amount for un-cured rock......

The point is there is a price point where it is more beneficial to go with un-cured rock compared to base rock.....

All I can say is fellow reefers PLEASE do not agree to pay more than 85 cents per pound for hirock base rock.......

IT'S NOT WORTH MORE THAN THIS........ (my apologies for the caps)

Can anyone recomend another place to purchase base rock on-line? Hirock needs competition.....!!!!


JMO :D

prop-frags
08/31/2004, 08:15 PM
All this makes perfect sense to me. I've got well over $1,000 in rock in my tank now. You bet your sweet bippie the next reef I set up will be using mostly dry rocks that are of the most perfect shape!



Wanted: Dry, Dead, Lifeless Rock with really cool shapes!
:D

ihavtats29
08/31/2004, 08:18 PM
i do a rinse in fw then a soak in sw before i place my bs in my tank
30 lbs bs 10 lbs live baserock 8 lbs lr, the live base rock i get from my lfs is dirt cheap and comes with tons of critters in it , the last piece i bought cost me 17 bucks for a 6 pound piece witch had 2 very small serpant stars, a cool little white fuzzy crab a bunch of bristol worms featherdusters and a small anemone
the onlt diferance in live bs and lr is the live bs dosent have any coraline alge on it and its about 6 to 7 dollars cheaper the liverock its self

va_reefman
08/31/2004, 08:22 PM
I love to see some pics of tanks that are not using live rock for comparation to tanks that we always seen here on RC. If it is not much different then we may be looking at a whole new way of saving money on reef.

John

mmgm
08/31/2004, 08:31 PM
Here is a picture of Hirock Base Rock I am aclimating into my system..... (Note: I paid 85 cents per pound and Hirock has more than doubled the price in less than three months)

The dark rock on top is just corraline encrusted rock that has been in my display for a few years...... However, the rock on the right side is new Figi rock I placed in the tank for seeding.....

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/28319Base_to_LR.jpg

As far as threads see the following::::


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=377436


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236668


Weatherson's thread really rocks.....:D

JKH
08/31/2004, 08:31 PM
I bet if you take some dry rock and a few lbs of garf grunge, it would take off in no time. I may try that myself

mmgm
08/31/2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by JKH
I bet if you take some dry rock and a few lbs of garf grunge, it would take off in no time. I may try that myself

Where do you get cheap Dry Rock these days?

KwajRocks
08/31/2004, 08:46 PM
PIERO,

Love the web-site at the little red house. :) My question is (and by the way I did not start my tank with limestone and lava rock, I purchased the already- up and running system and these rocks came with the tank along with live rock purchased from several sources), if you are going to use dry rock and the bacteria from another established tank to start up a new system (from sand, gravel, rocks), why can't you just use "holey concrete" or "whatever" porous rock to start? Isn't it the bacteria/fauna from the old system that matters? Why is the type of rock important?

Scuba Dog
08/31/2004, 09:13 PM
i agree that base rock can be populated with bennifical bacteria, but i remember reading that its what is inside of the rock that makes a big difference in dentrification the organisims...I think the article was in one of the last reef keeping magazines....just food for thought....

Piero
08/31/2004, 09:28 PM
well

Piero
08/31/2004, 09:32 PM
I gues I like using dry reef rock for the aesthetics,(it already looks like dead coral) and natural porosity, although i don't know how important porosity is...just my guess.

I also like using natural reef rocks because they are natural buffers for the system...and becuase I know what i'm getting. mystery rocks may have undesirable elements in them that might leech over time....I'd just rather be sure about the elements that make up the rock....I think limestone is fine, too and is also a natural buffer i believe....but never used it myself so don't take my word. But you mentioned you had no problems...

Scuba Dog
08/31/2004, 09:33 PM
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/feature/index.htm

a cool article i rmember reading a month or so ago...

gatohoser
08/31/2004, 09:50 PM
Yes i believe limestone is also CaC03 just in a different form. Hence limewater (kalkwasser) i assume. I have used a 20 lb or so piece of lava rock that had a real cool cave built into the top and it never leached or built up hair algae even on a near-skimmerless system due to a DSB and low nutrient input. Within a year it was the prettiest rock in the tank and was a perfect table to set everything else on.

catdoc
08/31/2004, 09:51 PM
I would be willing to use a little dry/dead rock as base, but still think that the diversity you get off of live rock is worth it. While seeding it from your friend's tank will help, I think that the more diversity you can get, the better. It still amazes me to see new creatures emerging from my live rock that I didn't even know were there. I don't see how you could attain that kind of diversity from seeding. I'm talking more about the macro than the microfauna/flora. JMHO. I've got some very cool purple encrusting sponge, great feather worms, bivalves, tunicates, and teeny little dunnowhattheyares that I can't imagine acquiring through a handful of sand or gravel. Little larvae hitch a ride in on the live rock and several months later--Ta Daa! new critters!

thedude
08/31/2004, 11:42 PM
Interesting thread. I've considered the same thing, but always had trouble finding rock that I trusted. Lava rock is plentiful around here, but I don't trust what might leach from the rock.

The hirocks stuff looks good. It sounds like it is old reef rock that just got beached. Their site says it has shells, etc. in it.

About my only concern with it would be the length of time (if ever) that it would take for the denitrifying bacteria to get into the center areas of the rock.

A good benefit here would also be the lesser impact to the reefs. I know most live rock is from the rubble zones, but the less taken the better.

Orm Embar
08/31/2004, 11:47 PM
I like live rock for multiple reasons, but I think that you can add base rock to live rock although I would worry about base rock being more easily colonized by problem algae as well as not having as much diversity of live as live rock unless it's from an established tank with good biodiversity.

I plan to order some LR from Tampa Bay in the next month. I like that it is aquacultured as opposed to collected from natural reefs, that it has a lot of biodiversity, and it is shipped in water to maintain that biodiversity. I like that there is less need to worry about cycling that way, and that you can get a basic reef going in a shorter period of time and have it look more like a true "reef."

I don't like it that I may end up with mantis shrimps and/or gorilla crabs (or other "bad stuff"), and I hope that it doesn't have Caulerpa! I hate Caulerpa (took over and ruined my last tank).

Ron
09/01/2004, 04:34 AM
How much does uncured rock run these days? Remeber, most of the prices you see do not include shipping. Since I live on the east coast the shipping is pretty high. I used Fedex's web site to find out how much it is for 4 day ground shipping which turns out to be $35.24. So, a 60 lb. box costs $80 - $35.24 = $44.76. That works out to be $0.75/lb.

I have also read the threads about what's inside the rocks (bacteria) is the really important part. However, if one considers the number of people using cultured rock like TBS, Walt Smith, and home made rocks a la GARF it makes you wonder how important that really is.

Ron
:strooper:

gregt
09/01/2004, 04:43 AM
Absolutes in this hobby don't generally work. You can't just say LR is not useful. It's not that simple.


LR allows you to set up a tank a whole lot quicker.
LR will allow you to add more load the your system a lot quicker
Base rock is cheaper
LR will be "prettier" faster.
LR will allow more "newbie" mistakes in the infancy of a system


Bottom line is that base rock will be live rock after some time. If you don't mind waiting then they are the same thing.

Ehydo
09/01/2004, 08:38 AM
At http://www.hirocks.com/Our_Products.html the shipping is included with the price listed.

jeffbrig
09/01/2004, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Ron
I have also read the threads about what's inside the rocks (bacteria) is the really important part. However, if one considers the number of people using cultured rock like TBS, Walt Smith, and home made rocks a la GARF it makes you wonder how important that really is.



It sounds like you're suggesting that the cultured rock doesn't have any bacteria inside it? On the contrary, I believe aquacultured rock that's spent a few years in the ocean is every bit as live as the rocks on the natural reef nearby.

Personally, I have no desire to pull live rock from a natural reef, whether it comes from a rubble zone or not (how can you be sure?). Using dry base rock is totally unappealing to me, so I will buy aquacultured rock from TBS, gulf-view, or one of the other aquaculture suppliers here in Florida. Sure, I will end up paying more to go this route, but who wants to drop $10k on a large tank setup and wait a year before it starts to look natural?

Just my 2¢

minireef75
09/01/2004, 09:30 AM
So how much is hirocks paying you again?..JK:D

KwajRocks
09/01/2004, 10:18 AM
I have to put in a plug for TBS. The rock they sent me was beautiful and teeming with life. A bad guy or two hitched, but they were "easy" to eliminate (except for one Mantis shrimp who eventually crawled right into a DIY trap in broad daylight). And interestingly, some of the supposed bad guys have turned out not to be so bad after all and a load of fun to watch. The various life forms have been very fun for our family to watch, especially for my kids and cat, who keep the front glass all smudged up!!

I do have two new tanks being set up, (as soon as Mitch comes and repairs my front glass - another saga for another thread) and this thread has helped me see that maybe I'll get some dry rock for the "bridges" I'm hoping to aquascape into my designs.

By the way Jeffbrig, I notice from your signature, you must have visited Alabama ;)

Flanders
09/01/2004, 10:25 AM
Bottom line is that base rock will be live rock after some time. If you don't mind waiting then they are the same thing.

LOL. You started it off right greg, and then ended it with an absolute (JK). I don't believe base rock will EVER achieve the species diversity that the best quality live rock has (as in, Fla cultured rock that has never left the water.)

Otherwise, I totally agree.

greenb
09/01/2004, 10:37 AM
"I don't believe base rock will EVER achieve the species diversity that the best quality live rock has (as in, Fla cultured rock that has never left the water.) "

Why wouldn't it? Assume that you fill a tank with dry rock and put a few pieces of Florida Cultured rock in the tank. Wouldn't the diversity of species eventually colonize the dry rock and make it pretty much exactly the same as the florida cultured rock??

It's pretty much the same scenario as what TBS is doing. Take a bunch of rocks, throw them in the ocean, a year later you have new live rock. Just on a much smaller scale.

Ehydo
09/01/2004, 10:48 AM
That is exactly what it will do Greenb. Most of the people that do not like the idea of dry rock do not want to wait for it to culture. That is there option.

This thread is not saying that you have to do this is is suggesting a cost effective alternative to LR. Of course you still have to buy some LR to seed the dry rock.

Why wouldn't the dry rock acheive the same biodiversity as the LR? It is the ideal home for all those critters. Plenty of new homes.

Flanders
09/01/2004, 10:51 AM
Because nothing achieves the same biodiversity in our tanks as it does in the ocean. They're doing it in the ocean, you're doing it in a box of water.

gatohoser
09/01/2004, 11:02 AM
Well its still the same rock coming out of the ocean as it is in your tank. You are both right i believe.

If you buy 100% LR you end up statistically with more species as not every rock has an equal amount of species colonizing it.

But If you buy 2 rocks of LR and the rest BR then you can be assured that if there are enuf of the species to mate that you will be cloning the rocks that are live.

It all depends on how long you have and how much you care about getting the most types of species in your tanks.

gatohoser
09/01/2004, 11:03 AM
I also am one to believe that muck has lots of species and if you've ever taken a look at rubble in a refugium it is SUPER colonized and im sure this would seed BR tanks with enuf for me to be happy.

Ron
09/01/2004, 11:18 AM
Man, I wish I was getting some sort of kickback to support my hobby. Heck, I have never even ordered from them so I don't know what the stuff is like. I just wanted to show that it is an inexpensive alternative even when considering uncured live rock.

This it turning out to be a really interesting thread.

Ron
:strooper:

Paul B
09/01/2004, 01:32 PM
You mean you guys were filling your entire tanks up with live rock. At $10.00 a lb. I have spent $1,000.00 on a lot of things but not on rocks. I collected most of my rock myself in the Caribbean and Hawaii but most of it I bleached in the hotel room before I carried it on the plane. The rest of it I either built out of concrete or collected locally in New York, some of it, as was said is asphalt that was dumped in the ocean 50 years ago.
Use dry rock as base rock then if you like, use live rock. Those tube worms from live rock will multiply if conditions are right and if they are not right then even the worms on the freshly collected live rock will die anyway. I have not put any live rock in my tank since before most people on this board were born and I have tube worms all over the place. (I do use some real sea water though) My reef is the oldest on RC and it was started with dry rock. There was no live rock in 1972. It will take about three months to cycle, live rock or not. The tank will have much less problems as it ages not in months but in years.
You do have to put in some bacteria from some source though, either another tank or the sea.
Here is a piece of my reef. The rock to the right of the bottle is asphalt. The skinny rock that snakes over the bottle is cement, the bottle was Grand Marnier. I first drank it then I broke it, glued most of it back together and stuck some cement on it.
Most of the rest of the rock I don't remember if I built it or collected it but almost none of it was bought as live rock. Don't get me wrong, live rock is great if you can afford it and it does come with interesting stuff I am just saying that it is not needed in the quantities that most people use it.
Paul


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Bottle_001.jpg

greenb
09/01/2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Flanders
Because nothing achieves the same biodiversity in our tanks as it does in the ocean. They're doing it in the ocean, you're doing it in a box of water.

But as soon as you order your rock and it sits for a day on the dock then spends a day or 2 to ship across the country to get to you. The rock you get automatically has less biodiversity on it then the rock you left in the ocean. At that point you are essentially (if you don't add anymore live rock) stuck with that set or level of biodiversity. Correct?? Hopefully we agree on that?

IF you can, now add a bunch of dry rock to your tank. Eventually all of that dry rock will have the same exact biodiversity as the rock you took out of the ocean.

Am I missing something?

mcsock
09/01/2004, 01:48 PM
When I set up my prop tank, I got lbs of HiRocks and picked up lbs of rubble rock locally. Now you really can not tell the difference in the rocks from color or coraline growth, only the dry rocks are much larger than the 1.25 lb rubble rock I used to seed them with.

Putawaywet
09/01/2004, 02:00 PM
I'll refrain from commenting on the already on going discussion with regard to biodiversity levels and just add one observation I haven't seen already mentioned.

When I set up my current tank I did so with dry base rock from www.reeferrocks.com and then seeded that with a mix of rock from my old tank and some rock aquired from the LFS.

What makes my situation different is that I dry-fit everything together first out in my garage, and once I got things the way I liked them, I started cementing everything together. I built caves, overhangs etc. It was kinda like putting together a big jig-saw puzzle. Then, after everything had been properly cured, I just lowered the 2 or 3 modular pieces I had built down into my tank. This saved me countless hours of frustration trying to stack rock with 3/4's of my arm in the tank.

Not only is my structure extremely solid, but over the last year I have epoxied nearly everything directly to my reef. Have yet to have a coral take a tumble.

Brett

amcarrig
09/01/2004, 02:07 PM
I'll never use live rock again and use only dead rock from www.hirocks.com.

With my original piece of live rock came hairy crabs, bryopsis, aiptasia and anemone majanos. If that's the variety of species you guys are looking for in live rock, you can have mine :)

greenb
09/01/2004, 02:11 PM
I plan on doing that same thing Brett, except I ordered dry rock from Hirocks.

Paul B
09/01/2004, 02:15 PM
Greenb, no you are not missing anything except that the live rock spends a lot more time out of the sea than two days before it gets to you. Live rock is used mainly for the bacteria in and on it. As I said, if conditions are right some, a very small part of the fauna on the rock may reproduce for a time. Don't expect all those sponges and worms to be there in a few years. But the bacteria will last forever (maybe) If you are worried about not aquiring some biodiversity think about the corals you are buying, there is some other life forms living on the coral that you are getting. Live rock is great but if you can not afford a lot of it don't worry. Just get some and use dry rock.
This is a hobby and it is possable not to go broke and have a great tank.
Paul

The Claw
09/01/2004, 02:16 PM
I started the hobby with it, but totally agree that Non live rock is just fine if you can seed it. I love the idea of paying hundreds of dollars to fly rocks half way across the globe. I did choose to just let the rocks colonize my sand. At least I wasn't completely duped.

fishtanker
09/01/2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Flanders
Because nothing achieves the same biodiversity in our tanks as it does in the ocean. They're doing it in the ocean, you're doing it in a box of water.

Correct but, once you put it into your box of water its now in a closed system and whatever biodiversity that didn;t die off will now be in your tank. So putting some dry base rock in to be seeded with the LR is a much cheaper alternative and the results will be the same.

Piero
09/01/2004, 02:19 PM
Dry rock is live rock after some time in your tank...the only difference is, you paid alot less for it!

Believe me, neither you, nor your livestock will know the difference once everything is established.

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely NO REASON to assume rock that was once dry won't colonize with the same diversity of microfauna as fresh "live" rock once it has been seeded.

The process of seeding your tank, by definition, is introducing microfauna from the ocean...via another person's tank.....and we all know....that all microfauna in any tank...originally came from the ocean......:p

the microfauna you seed the tank with, regardless of the source (rubble, a few live rocks, livestock) all comes from the ocean originally...:D

Paul B
09/01/2004, 02:21 PM
Another piece of "Live" cement rock in my reef. Coraline algae loves cement.
Paulhttp://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_background_rock_003.jpg

greenb
09/01/2004, 02:23 PM
Thank Paul... I do have a 90g setup and yes I did buy all live rock to fill it. Now I'm setting up a 45g cube and wasn't planning on spending that much money again for rocks. So I ordered the dry rock from HiRock and will be using that in the 45g and seeding from my 90g.

Sounds like I'm on the right track.

This is a good thread... Lots of useful info.

Thanks
Bob

gatohoser
09/01/2004, 02:29 PM
Every1 is missing what I said I think who is anti-100% LR. Dont forget you do statistically get less life with lower percentages of LR because yes most organisms die but MANY still live. If you buy all BR and one piece of LR which has no feather dusters, unless you buy a coral or rock with a feather duster you will never get one. But if you buy all lr your chances of getting one go up steadily.

greenbean36191
09/01/2004, 03:09 PM
So if LR and seeded base are the same, would you rather seed your base rock with new LR or with 5th generation seeded base rock?

There are lots of inverts in our tanks that simply can't reproduce in captivity, and you won't get the same biodiversity as fresh LR. Even then, the number of animals that can repoduce and those that actually do are likely to be quite different.

One of the biggest reasons I'm not a fan of base rock though is that I have yet to find a place that sells rock with natural shapes and still gives me a significant saving over LR.

I also like the surprise factor of LR. You don't know what kind of life you will get and it's always fun to discover some strange animal you never knew about. It's also alot more convenient than having to go out and individually buy animals to increase biodiversity.

Yes, I would buy base rock to build a foundation for my LR in a large tank but otherwise IMO the biodiversity is worth the extra money.

Piero
09/01/2004, 03:12 PM
I hardley think a coupe hirchhikers is worth the extra expense fo LR....as i said before...I've gotten PLENTY of hitchikers, from rocks attached to corals and other livestock additions...tube worms, mollusca , starfish, brittlestars, limpets, chitons, i got it all, and none of it came from the origianl rock...all came in hitchin rides from livestock additions. And keep in mind, you can still seed with a couple nice pieces of LR, it doent have to be just gravel....

The point is....you don't need to order all LR to get good microfauna and biodiversity, and hitchikers....you can just get a couple pieces...

ok, here's one of my tanks now....i'd say less than 10% of the rock was live...but then again i have other systems to seed from, including prop systems.

Looks just like any LR tank to me...and believe me the livestock doent know the difference...sorry it is a bit messy in there right now...(embarassed) :D

http://www.reeflabs.com/images/tankshot0804.jpg

Piero
09/01/2004, 03:30 PM
this is the type of rock that was used...moslty dry Fiji and marshall island pieces...I also "upgrade some of it when i come across nice big pieces that i like better than some that are in the system.

http://www.reeflabs.com/images/rocksale1.jpg
http://www.reeflabs.com/images/rocksale2.jpg
http://www.reeflabs.com/images/rocksale3.jpg

Piero
09/01/2004, 03:34 PM
but i think the bottom line is a tank that is aethetically pleasing, and full of healthy, happy, thriving livestock. And ther is no reason these needs cannot be met by using dry rock that is much cheaper, and seeding with a couple chunks of LR or rubble from the lfs or another tank...

gatohoser
09/01/2004, 05:23 PM
Well the animals that dont reproduce will not be around long enuf to be worth the cost for my pockets. The only thing i can think of thatd be worth it and meets those requirements are peanut worms and there's gotta be somewhere out there that sells them.

KwajRocks
09/01/2004, 05:36 PM
Paul B. glad to see the concrete formations in your tank. I would like to do something similar in my new 450s. I would like to build a large bridge spanning roughly 3 1/2 feet. Do you remember a GARF recipe for forming concrete in which some type of substance is added that later dissolves, forming holes? Seems like I remember this being a GARF project, but can't find it.

Paul B
09/01/2004, 05:52 PM
KwajRocks. I think the article you are thinking about uses pasta which later disolves making holes. The large concrete structure in my tank is hollow. It is made from PVC pipe which has a lot of holes drilled into it and covered in concrete. I am writing an article on it now for one of the aquarium magazines. Here is an old article I wrote about making large pieces of rock from small ones. (if the link works)
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6279/RaiseCementHomemadeConglomerateRocks.html

Paul B
09/01/2004, 05:58 PM
The entire center portion of my reef is that piece that appears in that article. I made it a few years ago and I took all the rocks out last December for the 25 year cleaning and I can't tell which piece I built no matter how hard I look, and it's about 18" long.
Paulhttp://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_mini-Reef_Tank_019.jpg

KwajRocks
09/01/2004, 06:16 PM
Paul B. Thank you much. This is a great idea and I will be able to use this!! I have been trying to think of a way not to use solid concrete and this is perfect. And I had no idea about the cement curing/Ph process, so thank you for the heads up! I just finished laying tile in my bathroom, so just maybe I can do the Sacrete thing!! :) Much appreciated!! I also love the trick with the cement covered PVC. I have a similar cave, however it is only camoflauged with rocks and at certain angles I can see the PVC. (Only I can see it, but I don't like it!) So a big thank you for the help!

Paul B
09/01/2004, 06:30 PM
Your welcome
Paul

tonybologna
09/01/2004, 06:43 PM
I've never had a SW aquarium before, and I find this to be interesting..though I do have a couple questions. :D

What exactly is "rubble," and how much would a standard LFS charge for it? Also, do "hitchhikers" serve any purpose beyond aesthetics?

Thanks!

KwajRocks
09/01/2004, 08:01 PM
Finally found the DIY rocks on the GARF web site (garf.org).

gatohoser
09/01/2004, 11:23 PM
Tonybologna,
Rubble is just smashed up LR. If you go to a bad LFS you can ask for the rubble for cheap. Offer them a dollar a pound. Dont pay more than 2 dollars a pound but you wont need much for these purposes.

The benefit of hitchhikers is a controversial question at the moment. It is unsure what exactly is beneficial to a tank but its usually just aesthetic and interesting. If money is a problem go more BR. If you just want a fast and diverse tank go LR.

Flanders
09/02/2004, 07:39 AM
But as soon as you order your rock and it sits for a day on the dock then spends a day or 2 to ship across the country to get to you. The rock you get automatically has less biodiversity on it then the rock you left in the ocean. At that point you are essentially (if you don't add anymore live rock) stuck with that set or level of biodiversity. Correct?? Hopefully we agree on that?

I agree, but please read my previous post. What I said was what grows in our tanks can never match the species diversity of the best quality rock with no dieoff -- the Florida rock is the only thing I know of that is shipped in water at the moment. If we're talking about the mostly dead Fiji and Tonga, you're right, it probably doesn't make much difference.

Correct but, once you put it into your box of water its now in a closed system and whatever biodiversity that didn;t die off will now be in your tank. So putting some dry base rock in to be seeded with the LR is a much cheaper alternative and the results will be the same.

The results will almost surely not be the same. Especially if you get rock from a few sources. Not every rock is going to get colonized by every organism on every other rock.

Take, for example, Christmas tree worms. They don't typically reproduce in captivity. What you get is what you get.

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/02/2004, 07:54 AM
there are some show piece lace rocks from carib sea that are one 2 a box and cost about 55 dols each and have some great shapes .. some of these ar 2 foot long

scaz
09/02/2004, 08:08 AM
I bought 50 lbs of base rock from an ebay seller called "i have rock" i paid a total of 52 dallers for the rock including shipping. it was acuall rock that was taken from the ocean. 2 peices of rock acually have shells that are like in the rock. I have had them in my tank for a few monthes now. not to long ago i moved around some of the rock only to see ton's of pods come running out. so in my mind it's a great success!!

mmgm
09/02/2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Piero
this is the type of rock that was used...moslty dry Fiji and marshall island pieces...I also "upgrade some of it when i come across nice big pieces that i like better than some that are in the system.

http://www.reeflabs.com/images/rocksale1.jpg
http://www.reeflabs.com/images/rocksale2.jpg
http://www.reeflabs.com/images/rocksale3.jpg

Where did you purchase this Base Rock? Looks nice.....:D

Piero
09/02/2004, 10:54 AM
various sources....mostly LFS local

racrumrine
09/02/2004, 04:14 PM
If you have a DSB and subscribe to the theory that the rocks should sit on the glass so the critters won't topple them, then you are wasting a few inches of expensive live rock when you use it as the base.

For that reason, I'm planning on buying some Dead Rocks. As far as I know, hirocks is from Hawaii only. Is their a vendor selling Dead Figi Rocks; or, do you have to look for someone who trashed their system and tossed the formerly live rock in the yard?

Regards,

Roy

KwajRocks
09/02/2004, 05:08 PM
Somethinsfishy., aka John, do you mean the Carib Sea web site? I'm looking for the large rocks you're talking about, but can't find. Do you remember where they were? Thanks!!

35gallonhex
09/02/2004, 05:28 PM
so what i read tells me that if i wanted to, i could make my own rocks that looked like pieces of sunken buildings. ( like water world or something) and it would be perfectly okay to do it?:confused:

Ehydo
09/02/2004, 05:33 PM
Yes, read the post by Paulb. He has a piece of chain in his tank that he epoxy coated so he could put it in his tank. Go and search his post. His tank is really amazing.

daytona955
09/02/2004, 08:15 PM
Another way of doing this is the GARF agrocrete method. I have made ~150 lbs for about $40. Only problem I am having is in the curing. My tap water comes out at ~8.6 PH so there is not as much leaching going on as I would like. Trying to find some way to lower the PH safely while it cures. But the basic formula I used is:
4 parts crushed coral
1 part argonite sand (southdown)
1.5 parts portland Type 1 cement.

Just remember to cure it a LONG time. So far I am at 6 weeks and counting.

bj32482
09/03/2004, 08:33 AM
more pics of base rock that has been mixed with Live rock.

What does everyone think about doing a half and half mix?

chewie70
09/03/2004, 09:37 AM
Love the idea of being able to add more rock to an established system without having to cycle and at a fraction of the cost. My only question lies with the Hirock that so many people are using. Their site says the rock is a calcium-carbonate base. Would this not cause the rock to literally disolve over a short period of time, say a couple of years! What's everyones input on this?

Matt

tonylamas
09/03/2004, 10:07 AM
Rock taken from the reef (natural rubble or other) is made by corals depositing calcium carbonate. So it's the same thing as reef rock. The rock doesn't dissolve much at all until you get down to a pH of about 8.0-7.8. So that shouldn't be a problem.

falconut
09/03/2004, 10:47 AM
I currently have about 40lbs of actual LR, its been there about 9 months, but I also have about 20lbs of Tuffa Rock, 10lbs of it has been in there for 2 years. Once I added the LR to my system, within a few months you could notice the Tuffa started to look more like the LR. My only concern was the denitrifing bacteria.

I have another 30lbs of the Tuffa in 10" - 12" pieces still. Based upon this post I may use this a my BR and only add a little more LR to start off my 90 gal. Then eventually move all of current system into this one over time.

Thanks for this post, it was helpful. Glad to see others have had success doing this.

falconut
09/03/2004, 10:53 AM
I forgot to add this to my post. I originally had a 5 - 10lb piece of Lava Rock in my system for about 1-1/2 years. I too had a problem with algae. I read an article, a while back, and it stated that Lava Rock contains something like minerals that can cause continuous algae blooms. Since I have removed the Lava, all has been well. Just figured I would share this.

Paul B
09/03/2004, 12:02 PM
35gallonhex. Yes you could make rocks that look like a building or Paris Hilton if you like. Concrete is perfectly safe in a reef. You could build your tank out of it if you like. A lot of people do. Of course, it would be nice to make rock look like rock. You could make cement rock that looks better than real rock for about 20 cents a pound. In my tank you would not be able to tell the real rock from the homemade rock. I built it and I can't tell.
Paul

Flanders
09/03/2004, 03:34 PM
Can one of you guys make me one that looks like Paris Hilton? I wanna mount a brain coral on her head.

35gallonhex
09/03/2004, 05:58 PM
is there a tread that i can read that tells me how to make the cement into shapes? i was thinking either a building or two or parts that look like they could have come from a building(ie. bricks, blocks the steel reinfocement bars sticking out)

KwajRocks
09/03/2004, 06:35 PM
35gallonhex. Go to Paul B's post he had a link. Here it is
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanave...erateRocks.html
But I don't know how to do links :( Sorry. It is a great article.

KwajRocks
09/03/2004, 06:38 PM
Also, go to GARF.org has the argocrete recipe.

KwajRocks
09/03/2004, 06:47 PM
That's aragocrete and it's under the How To section.

Paul B
09/03/2004, 10:35 PM
I think this is it.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6279/RaiseCementHomemadeConglomerateRocks.html

35gallonhex
09/04/2004, 04:00 PM
is it just me or is everyone freezing after clicking the link?

35gallonhex
09/04/2004, 04:09 PM
must be me cause its fine now. but how do i make something like a cinderblock but smaller. the link only shows how to put rocks together.

35gallonhex
09/04/2004, 04:47 PM
could i just use a cinderblock?

jtpassat
09/04/2004, 05:29 PM
i have agrocrete in my current 55 gal setup and it is great. when I started out I used about 60 lbs of the stuff and live sand to cycle the tank.

now I have pink coraline algae on them and mini tube worms coming out of them (I'm guessing they got there from my christmas rock)

Paul B
09/04/2004, 07:31 PM
I don't see why you could not put a cinder block in there if you want that look. I would try it in a small tank with some black mollies first. If you want a concrete block to look like a cinder block just make a wooden form and pour cement in it.
Paul

Paul B
09/05/2004, 05:50 AM
This is a piece of homemade cement and PVC rock in the process of construction. There are a few more steps before it is complete. This is the rock in my reef picture and it is about three feet long.
Paul
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094PVC_rock.jpg

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/05/2004, 07:01 AM
very nice looking !

Paul B
09/05/2004, 07:41 AM
After this there are two or three more layers of cement that go on.
Paul

35gallonhex
09/05/2004, 11:09 AM
im gonna try curing some lightweight cinderblock i bought from HD i put it in fresh water and im going to change the water daily for a month lots of little airbubbles escaping from them.

KwajRocks
09/11/2004, 10:01 AM
Anyone interested in this thread should read Dan Theisen's article titled "Fiji vs. Florida, The Live Rock Debate" in the October issue of FAMA. Very interesting and informative article!!

johnny1
09/11/2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by daytona955
Another way of doing this is the GARF agrocrete method. I have made ~150 lbs for about $40. Only problem I am having is in the curing. My tap water comes out at ~8.6 PH so there is not as much leaching going on as I would like. Trying to find some way to lower the PH safely while it cures. But the basic formula I used is:
4 parts crushed coral
1 part argonite sand (southdown)
1.5 parts portland Type 1 cement.

Just remember to cure it a LONG time. So far I am at 6 weeks and counting.

You can go to a pool store in your city and get muratic acid to lower the ph of your water. I would do this before adding the rock, get the PH where you want it and then add the rock.

35gallonhex
09/11/2004, 07:14 PM
hmm ty for the tip

minireef75
09/11/2004, 07:51 PM
vinegar is so much easier and safer..yes i know it is not as concentrated but the forementioned makes up for this IMO

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/12/2004, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by 35gallonhex
im gonna try curing some lightweight cinderblock i bought from HD i put it in fresh water and im going to change the water daily for a month lots of little airbubbles escaping from them. :rollface: CINDERBLOCK ??

zemuron114
09/12/2004, 06:18 AM
I live in hawaii and i've seen the "HIROCKS" arond the beaches and in the water. It is absolutely beautiful rock. That is what i'm getting when i do my 500 gallon or so tank. It is relatively light and WILL take on life if seeded correctly.. Snorkeling with live rock and exotic fish and inverts has been a big experience factor in this hobby!!!

dj

Mach's Tank
09/12/2004, 06:56 AM
Great thread, and it all really has me thinking now.:rollface:
I am still in set-up phase of my tank. My plan was going with TBS package for it. From every comment I have heard, they seem to be top notch, and the life it comes with extraordinary. But, like most reefers, the $$$ are keeping me from the next step in set up. I am now considering going with the base rock, and playsand. Hopefully I can find someone local that I can get a little seeding sand from, and purchase a few local LR to get things started.
Another option I'm considering is just buying a small package from TSB, or even individual pieces to get some of their great stuff in my tank.
I understand it will take longer to get the same look in my tank going this route, but if I have to wait till I can afford the $1000 package... it may just be the same amount of time anyways.:rolleyes:

gatohoser
09/12/2004, 11:53 AM
Ya that brings up another point. I have used silica playsand from HD 2 times on 2 different systems. One was a 20g and the other is a 500g multi-tank system made up of 40g and 50g and random other tanks. Never had a diatom problem. I find it hard to believe that silica sand would dissolve into the water. Wouldnt the ph have to drop considerably which would kill stuff anyways?

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/13/2004, 04:52 AM
ONLY way to destroy sand is to turn it into glass !:D

zemuron114
09/14/2004, 07:49 PM
what is TSB???

Mach's Tank
09/14/2004, 08:21 PM
TBS...
Tampa Bay Saltwater
Just realized I spelled the initials wrong in my post. Woops

Rikko
09/14/2004, 10:30 PM
Reading 'Conscientious' by Fenner, he mentions that you can crack a piece of LR open and smell some rank anaerobic sites where denitrification occurs.

Anybody "seeded" a piece of base rock and tried cracking it open? I'm convinced that base rock will colonize but in my mind the amount of time needed for anaerobic bacteria to fully penetrate the rock and become useful isn't measured in a couple of months or years. I have nothing to back that up whatsoever, but it seems more like wishful thinking that you can "activate" dead rock very quickly.

I especially liked Anthony Calfo's discussion of LR in 'Reef Invertebrates' - I'm not sure how scientific his analysis was, but his position was that wild LR will be much more diverse and biologically rich, whereas cultured rock is really infantile and won't have as much going on.

I guess seeding your own base rock amounts to creating aquacultured (Florida) rock in a short period of time. The question I have is how long it takes for that rock to match what ancient LR (ok, so maybe not that ancient) has to offer.

And just to barf up what Calfo said again: water-shipped rock generally isn't a great idea except for very short trips. You may not end up with the dry dieoff you get when moist shipping, but the water allows all of the life on the rock to purge metabolic wastes as they please and these can poison everything else there. Air-shipped rock makes everybody "hold it until we get there".

yikan
09/14/2004, 11:16 PM
This topic has been answered before with great extent, like in a pretty recent thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=274469&highlight=base+rock

You can add a complete dead rock in your 3-year old tank and within short period of time the dead rock will be covered with coralline algae.

However if you add many dead rock and only small amount of LR in a new tank, it is not hard to imagine the bad algaes will likely to invade before the good ones. Of course over the long term dead rock = live rock if the shape are the same.

As gregt mentioned, it is only time, and remember time is money. That's why many of us buy 'cured' live rock. Is it necessary? no. Is it worth the time? probably.

35gallonhex
09/16/2004, 06:15 PM
think of it like this. just because you cant get to the center of a tootsie pop without biting doesnt mean that nothing can get to the center without biting. if water gets to an area the bacteria can get to that same area just as easily. if conditions are right, which they are in most rocks, shop doesnt take long to setup. i think that you might be viewing a rock as a solid piece of material. its not. dont you see lots a little bubbles come from the rock when you put it into the water if its been dry for a period of time. the whole reason we have LR in our tanks, besides the view, is for the anarobic bacteria inside. it didnt take ages for it to get inside. as soon as the bacteria is on the rock it will be in the rock in no time. its not like a environmentaly sealed safe. otherwise whats the point? just my 2 cents

gatohoser
09/16/2004, 07:24 PM
Well heres some fuel for the fire:

Anaerobic baceteria dies with prolonged (possibly short) contact with normally-oxygenated water correct? If i am correct in that it would make it slightly more complicated for these bacteria to spread from rock to rock. Im not sure how they do it then but im sure its nothing short of a miracle.

gazpep
09/17/2004, 06:05 AM
I have about 150 lbs of rock that came from my old reef that had become covered in hair algae. 10 weeks ago I decided to start again with a new 6 x 2 x 2 set up and put the rock outside to dry with the intention of re-using it in my new reef. The rock now has completely dried out and has very little residual odour so I'm reasonably confident that it will cycle OK as the die-off would be close to complete by now.

I also have about 80 lbs of Live rock arriving tomorrow ( from a reef in North-west Australia). The collector of this rock traditionally supplies the rock fresh from the reef and it has limited "dry time", just basically the airfreight time across the country and with very little die-off I'm expecting the new rock to provide sufficient colonising life to bring the old rock back to life. I am hoping that coralline establishes reasonably quickly and the whole lot blends together. Sure, there may be an algae bloom but that it almost inevitable in most new set ups.

Put it this way, I wasn't going to throw out 150 lbs of rock that would cost $4 or $5 a pound to replace with new live rock.

Puffers
09/17/2004, 06:49 AM
I agree with the idea of using plain rock for reefs. Seeing my LR from Tampa Bay grow I notice many more sponges, squirts and clams on my TBLR than in my friends system. Now that I have this good rock, I will use it to seed my 240 (120/120) system that will all be dead rock.

ToUcHoFeLeGaNcE
09/17/2004, 10:29 AM
i couldent agree with PIERO more. The only reason i started my existing reef with Totally cured live rock was becouse i got about 200pds and a k2r calicum reactor for 300$. Im currently running a seprate 29gal i just set up for a fish only about 2 weeks ago. I added a bunch of cool looking base rock, and seeded the tank with 4 small 2inx3in peices of cured live rock my my existing tank. Already starting to see spots of coraline on the new base rock, with heavy calicum dosing with b ionic and alot of water flow and min. lighting. Thought i was the only one who thought that live rock was a waste of $$$. Im with ya 100% piero, till proven otherwise. o yea, i forgot to mention i only use the few small peices of LR to see and tank with coraline and then i use a few cups of live sand for the micro organisms,...like pods...etc.

Glenn UK
09/17/2004, 11:20 AM
Ive scanned thourhg this thread, cant claim to have read all of it. if its been said before i appologise.

Here in the uk all of our lr is shipped and is damnded expensive, around $15.00 - $30 a kilo, so it doesnt take a lot of working out how much it will cost to put 50 or 60kgs into a failry modest tank.

We are now seeing dry rocks from various sources and this is primarily what i used in my tank. Mine was imported from germany and cost around $7 per kilo so around half or what lr costs.

I added some lr and now no one who sees my rocks thinks there is anything odd about it.

FOr me a combination of botrh is probably the best way to go.

Glenn

tgunn
09/17/2004, 11:35 AM
I'm in the process of setting up a new 120. Though there is great live rock available locally I'm planning on making my own live rock. Since aragonite sand is a rarity in my area, I'm planning on using crushed oyster shells ($8 for 50lbs), which is readily available (gee, helps being in an agricultural area).

I know many don't like the LONG curing time for DIY agrocrete/oystercrete rock, but really I'm in no rush.

I'll probably buy a few chunks of quality life rock to seed my new rock and get everything, going, but I plan on making almost all of it myself.

I know there's been some talk that DIY liverock may not have the "Right" porosity to match the biological effectiveness of real life rock; so I'll just dump a whole bunch of extra in my sump and let it make up the difference. :)

Later,
Tyler

35gallonhex
09/17/2004, 06:43 PM
Anaerobic baceteria dies with prolonged (possibly short) contact with normally-oxygenated water correct? If i am correct in that it would make it slightly more complicated for these bacteria to spread from rock to rock. Im not sure how they do it then but im sure its nothing short of a miracle.

so how are you sure you even have them in what you have? due to cured LR being cleaned with water probably properly oxygenated. i might not know how but it does. germs spread bacteria spread. why wash your hands if it didnt. bacteria are very hardy hence thier still existing.


edit/ miricales happen every day look at babies:D

gatohoser
09/17/2004, 09:19 PM
Im not denying that they do or else they never would have left the first anaerobic pocket. When they are in the places being cured they do not break open the rock or use pressure to circulate the internal water which moves very slowly likely by the movement of worms, the same animals that deoxygenate the water. If the water inside were oxygenated well then LR wouldnt reduce nitrate at all! Same theory behind DSB's. What i am bringing into question is how QUICKLY or readily the bacteria spreads into teh other rocks. I would think it happens from the excrement of the same worms and animals that venture deep into the rock. That would be the miracle. Like seeds in guano. Who knows how quickly these worms can or will move BETWEEN different rocks? Not me! Maybe a biologist could chime in here somewhere? What i bring into question that has been overlooked is this. Every1 knows that coralline and animals and aerobic-bacteria spread quick as lightning but how fast do anaerobic bacteria colonize? Perhaps the man-made LR under a certain age is non-nitrate-processing (cool word hehe)? For most of us we have ways to deal with this but perhaps a barebottom tank with a normal sized skimmer and no plant life would have trouble? I mean im totally for base rock tanks but i dont wanna rush into it and say LR is outdated. It may have its advantages that we have been overlooking.

gatohoser
09/17/2004, 09:21 PM
So btw has any1 done this? Maybe with NO LR or LS? (i am referring to a barebottom with base rock and a moderate skimmer)

35gallonhex
09/18/2004, 02:09 PM
im am not saying no LR ect i am all for LR and LS but it is quite expensive. i dont have loads of cash so i have to look for alternatives. if dead rock can be seeded... even if it takes longer or whatever. water changes and proper filtration should do a pretty darn good job on keeping stuff you dont want in your system out. LR just is more natural and imho is better then a skimmer and such. nature made the bacteria.

gatohoser
09/18/2004, 02:39 PM
But still what im saying is no1 knows how fast anaerobic bacteria (the ones that do the filtration that gets rid of nitrates) colonize new rocks. It may take one day and it may take years. Im just playing devil's advocate and trying to investigate this in another perspective. Still hoping a marine biologist will chime in and lead us one way or the other?

35gallonhex
09/18/2004, 02:46 PM
yes marine biologist please

gatohoser
09/18/2004, 03:22 PM
I posted in Dr. Ron Shimek's forum and gave him the thread id so maybe he'll come over and discuss this subject with us!

35gallonhex
09/18/2004, 03:29 PM
does he leave his own forum?

gatohoser
09/18/2004, 04:34 PM
Iunno....didnt think about that. We will soon find out! I posted the question in his forum and will quote it over here if he responds anyways.

35gallonhex
09/18/2004, 04:41 PM
k

Cody Ray
09/18/2004, 04:54 PM
IMO, it is best to use dry rock in larger systems and seed it with live rock. However in smaller systems (>30 gal) using all live rock is my choice.

gatohoser
09/18/2004, 05:27 PM
He answered and its good news!

"Hi,

Speaking of anaerobic bacteria is a lot like speaking of animals or plants. The term is too broad to be useful in discussions such as this. Some anaerobes will die when they contact oxygenated environments. Others will simply form spores or resistant stages. Others will simply shut down for a while, etc.

If the conditions are right for them, some populations may double in well less than an hour. Under these situations they may spread between rocks very rapidly, indeed." -Dr. Ron Shimek


So good news BR people! Thats one way to prove that LR does equal nitrogen-cycle processing as LR. The question still stands of if the worms that supposedly push water into the rocks colonize the BR fast enuf to promote nitrate processing but the whole theory is just that right now: a theory. So all we can tell right now BR is good! lol

35gallonhex
09/18/2004, 06:12 PM
hmm...

gatohoser
09/18/2004, 06:37 PM
What does hmm mean?

Imaexpat2
09/18/2004, 06:38 PM
Piero

I pretty much agree with you on just about every pont. I probably have about 800 lbs of rock between all of my tanks and all but about 70 of it is DIY rock (agro-crete). Its only occasionally that I will buy a pound or two here and there just to keep the bio-diversity up and get different colors of coralline algae seeded in my tanks.

JMHO...

johns
09/18/2004, 08:00 PM
Interesting thread and lots of great ideas. But I've been through the whole thing and unless I lissed it I still only see 2 vendors mentioned that sell dry base rock via the internet - hirocks.com and reeferrocks.com.

For those of us who dont have access to good, safe dry rock locally, can anyone mention any other sources for this rock? Specifically, for dry fiji, marshall, or other pacific rock that most of us are accustomed to.

frogguy1
09/18/2004, 08:09 PM
I didnt read all of this tread, but I highly recommend www.hirocks.com. I agree that buying a ton of LR is a waste of money when you can seed normal rock. Sure it may take a couple of months to be covered in caoraline algae and critters, but the money you save is worth it. Plus you dont get it from the wife.

Cody Ray
09/18/2004, 08:29 PM
johns, it is hard to find good base rock besides the internet, that is why many people make their own. Making it is too much work for me. Try going to a homedepot or the like and ask if they have any porus calcium carbonate rock. Some people use that kind of rock for decor. Petco and petsmart (yes, they may be big business that trys to run others out of business, but its worth a shot) may also have some good base rock.

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/19/2004, 04:55 AM
Yasha ask your local lfs store to order u a box of show lase from feller stone co it comes 5 to a box for about 60 dols , weighs about 60 lbs , is dead coral ! and the show lace pieces i have 9 of these large pieces in my 3 larger tanks are awesome !!

I just took out all of my live rock in my 3oo gal yesterday to rearange and i have 11oo lbs in it !

35gallonhex
09/19/2004, 09:54 AM
hmm... means i am thinking about what you posted dr ron said. makes sence to me.

johns
09/19/2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by SOMEthinsFISHY
Yasha ask your local lfs store to order u a box of show lase from feller stone co it comes 5 to a box for about 60 dols , weighs about 60 lbs , is dead coral ! and the show lace pieces i have 9 of these large pieces in my 3 larger tanks are awesome

Yeah. In my previous post this is what I'm trying to get at - is there somewhere online that anone knows of where you can by dry base rock that is actually true dead coral pieces ?

I'm mean I know any Ca Carbonate rock is ok. But in order to get natural shapes I just would prefer to buy real dead coral pieces. dont have a good source locally, and I dont want to try to make my own.

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/19/2004, 04:01 PM
go to pet store and ask to see a feller stone catalog the one piece of show lace can only go in the 2 ft wide tanks like the 180s the 210s and the 265s etc !

tucc185
09/19/2004, 04:43 PM
I checked out that hirocks page, but it really seems hideous. I suppose it is a step up from dead coral skeletons, but it certainly doesn't compare with even some of the crappier pieces of live rock. As for the "die off" issue, my answer is simple: don't buy live rock in the mail. I mean, if you reallly couldn't afford live rock, a saltwater tank may not be the best hobby for you. It's a very expensive hobby, even without the cost of live rock. Anyways, I think base rock is fine when it is used in the way it's name implies:as a base upon which to stack your live rock. I think live rock is absolutely worth the money you pay for it, especially when you consider all the benefits of it: it's been in the ocean already so you dont have to be a geologist to figure out whether it will destabilize pH or alkalinity, it serves as a food sorce and prey item breeding ground for many types of specialized feeders, the bonus creatures that come along for the ride (sea stars, xenia, christmas tree worms, feather dusters, torch coral, zoos, sea slugs, anthelia, mushrooms, sps, just to name things that arrived on rock in my tank), and the beautiful coloration and shape that I've never seen matched by mere base rock. Well, those are my thoughts on the matter, take 'em or leave 'em

35gallonhex
09/19/2004, 05:24 PM
give me another choice please. lol jk i agree with you for the most part

SUMMERS
09/19/2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by tucc185
.....the bonus creatures that come along for the ride (sea stars, xenia, christmas tree worms, feather dusters, torch coral, zoos, sea slugs, anthelia, mushrooms, sps, just to name things that arrived on rock in my tank),...........

Bristle worms, mantis shrimp, pistol shrimp, drupella cornus, flatworms, Periclimenes shrimp, vermetid snail. Just to name a few.

gatohoser
09/19/2004, 05:51 PM
Hmm so heres another way to narrow down what is now being said:

Live rock is a risk, you can get beautiful creatures you cant find elsewhere and you can get horrible monsters you wont be able to find in there:)

Base rock is a sure thing, you get nothing lol

35gallonhex
09/19/2004, 06:04 PM
when you put it that way...

totaly agree with you gatohoser

Cody Ray
09/19/2004, 06:15 PM
People tend to overexagerate the bad things that come with live rock. IMO live rock has more positive things that arive on it than bad things.

SUMMERS
09/19/2004, 06:21 PM
True.
But is even one bad thing worth the extra headache errr cost if you can seed a tank with a couple of pounds of live rock and still get all that "beneficial" stuff?

Cody Ray
09/19/2004, 06:23 PM
Huh?

SUMMERS
09/19/2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by InuYasha
People tend to overexagerate the bad things that come with live rock. IMO live rock has more positive things that arive on it than bad things.

Huh?

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/19/2004, 06:45 PM
welcome to RC tucc !

mdellyd
09/19/2004, 06:59 PM
I agree 100%. No "live rock" for me!

My god, the first time I bought live rock I ended up with two tiny rocks for 20 BUCKS! I could not beleive it, was this gold! I bought dead rock for $1.00 a pound (I did not know about the hirock, thanks!) and used it for a base and then added my two peices of "live rock" on top and now all the dead rock looks as good or better than the live rock!

My dead rock now is live rock (as in bacteria) and it has a beautuful pink/purple coraline algae growth, tube worms and I have been able to "frag" I think the term is polyps and mushrooms onto it.

I also hate thinking of all this rock being pulled out of the oceans. I know, this is just "extra rock", but it still bothers me. I try to buy tank raised fish and frags for corals. I bought tiny fragments of Polyps, Mushrooms and Xenia that were lying on the gravel in my LFS's tanks for 5 bucks each and I have fragged them onto other rocks and they are spreading all over the place. It makes me feel better to know I am building my reef tanks from frags and not just spending gobs of money.

BlackGrouper
09/19/2004, 10:04 PM
Great stuff! Thank You

I was shopping for Live Rock today and found this thread. I've been researching for 2 years and buying all the stuff slowly, so 2 or 3 additional months aren't going to kill me.

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/20/2004, 04:51 AM
MY most expensive piece of live rock was 8o lbs from a wholesailer for my bedroom tank and it cost on sale 180. dols i have a 92 pounder in ther that was a dead boner and that was only 85 dols and u cannot tell the difference now !

BlackGrouper
09/20/2004, 08:23 AM
question, how much rock do I need for a 90 Gal setup? I have always heard/read about the 1 pound/per gallon rule of thumb. But now that I will get 80% to 90% of the rock as dry rock, I want to order enough from the start to create a nice aqua-scape (not empty looking). Thanks

Ehydo
09/20/2004, 08:37 AM
Try 1 pound per gallon and then see if you like it. You can always add more or take some out. I asked the question about the weight of live rock vs. dry rock and it did not change my idea of how much to try at first. It is not that much difference.

Glenn UK
09/20/2004, 08:45 AM
FWIW the dry rock i sued increased in weight by around 10 - 15% after soaking in water.

So maybe you could get away with about 10 - 15% less than normal.

Second point i would make sure that whatever rock you put in the tank that the structure is open that you build and that you get good circulation around and through the structure.

IMHO this is almost as important as having enough rock.

HTH

Glenn

BlackGrouper
09/20/2004, 08:53 AM
Thanks Erik and Glenn for the information

ratboy
09/20/2004, 09:21 AM
I havent read this whole thread yet but I bought 2000# of hirocks 2 years ago and cultured and used/sold it quite successfully. I mixed it in with maybe 50# of established florida, fiji, tonga rock and let it go. No skimmer just old NO flourescents (mostly actinics) over a kiddie pool hooked up to 2 75 gallon tanks. Water changes? Sure when I do one in my main tanks I just drain out water from the culture system and add in my "dirty" water change water. All of my cultured rock is 80% coraline covered and includes lots of cool sponges and other critters that have migrated from other rock and sand Ive added. I wouldnt do it again unless I need more rock myself because it still wasnt profitable enough in my area. If I could get 6-8$ a pound (LFS prices) it would be worth doing again electricity and frugal reefers make that hard.

Cody Ray
09/20/2004, 06:35 PM
Wow ratboy, do you have a picture of this "culture" pool?

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/20/2004, 08:40 PM
order plenty u can always use what is left over in a refugium !

frogguy1
09/20/2004, 08:54 PM
Tucc185 made a comment about people not being able to afford Lr, shouldnt be in the hobby. I can afford and still choose to go with the method of seeding Non-LR. Its simply a matter of what an individual prefers. Everyone in the hobby knows what may work for one guy, may not work for the other. Why spend hundreds of dollars on LR for my new 200g tank when I can spend less than half of that, and be able to spend more money on more important equipment(lighting,skimmers,etc.), or simply spend more money on everyday things. Its a hobby not your life. Priorities is all I have to say.

tgunn
09/20/2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by frogguy1
Tucc185 made a comment about people not being able to afford Lr, shouldnt be in the hobby. I can afford and still choose to go with the method of seeding Non-LR. Its simply a matter of what an individual prefers. Everyone in the hobby knows what may work for one guy, may not work for the other. Why spend hundreds of dollars on LR for my new 200g tank when I can spend less than half of that, and be able to spend more money on more important equipment(lighting,skimmers,etc.), or simply spend more money on everyday things. Its a hobby not your life. Priorities is all I have to say.

I have to agree; for me it's not that I can't afford the live rock, it's that I chose to make my own because I'm trying to make the least impact on the natural oceans as possible. Besides, making it myself is a great fun DIY project. The fact it's cheaper to make base rock than to buy it is just a "side benefit" of it; not really my main rationale..

Later,
Tyler

panamaembraced
09/20/2004, 09:31 PM
I went the base rock route as well. My 55 started out with 60lbs of rock that I found at landscaping outfits, 2lbs of live rock, and 1lb of live sand. I might have purchased 10lbs of live rock since. In March, I set up my 135. Can you tell from these pictures which were "live" and which weren't? And as for the sand, in less than a month, there were more critters than I could count. I can't imagine how much it would cost to put two inches of live sand across the bottom of this baby!

I've never thought of this hobby as only for the rich. I'm about as far away from rich as it gets. Sometimes the inovative can do just as well as the frivolous spender. I think that might get under the skin of some. After all, who wants to pay 10 times more for something for no reason other than that's the way most do it?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/29226Dscn1069.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/29226Dscn1068-med.jpg

bj32482
09/20/2004, 11:21 PM
how long did it take to seed the base rock panamaembraced?

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/21/2004, 03:30 AM
well said panama and no i cannot tell looks terrific !

Frick-n-Frags
09/21/2004, 06:07 AM
Very interesting thread. Good points.

I always wondered why people fully cured off their rock too. seems like a waste to me. The percentage of original ocean life that survives the NH3/NO2 soup is probably miniscule.

I started my reef way back with tufa rock , coral skeletons, lava rock and a few pieces of LR. It took a while to get rolling, but it really never cycled with measurable spikes.

Since then I have cherry picked really lush pieces of LR to add biodiversity and added small batches of mint handpicked without curing right into my system to minimize further dieoff. Paying $7-$9 for 5# isn't so bad when it is fresh out of the crate and full of goodies and you get exactly the ones you want.

(although $5/# hand picked was even better so I got 25# that time)

To me fully cured LR is THE biggest waste of money in the hobby, and they charge more for putting up with the process of killing everything but the bacteria off the rock. Might as well use Fritz-zyme and cinder blocks :D

KwajRocks
09/21/2004, 09:49 AM
Since then I have cherry picked really lush pieces of LR to add biodiversity and added small batches of mint handpicked without curing right into my system to minimize further dieoff. Paying $7-$9 for 5# isn't so bad when it is fresh out of the crate and full of goodies and you get exactly the ones you want.

Where did you hand-pick your rock? On-line? Locally?

FlipFlops24/7
09/21/2004, 11:22 AM
I ordered 30lbs of rock from HIROCKS and I can't wait to get it. My local fish store charges $12/lb for Bali LR and $8/lb for Figi LR and they are the closest store for about 45 minutes so Im screwed. I already have about 20lbs of LR in my 50 galllon, so this HIROCK should be a nice addition. I think it was $45 with shipping for 30lbs. My local fish store charges $4lb for the same stuff. Thats a $75 savings for me!

Shoestring Reefer
09/21/2004, 11:31 AM
I got 40# of hirock's stuff a while back.

Hirocks sells on Ebay and their prices are better on Ebay. Just in case it hasn't been said.

FlipFlops24/7
09/21/2004, 12:30 PM
yes, their prices are better on Ebay, but they dont sell the 30lb boxers of rocks on ebay, only the 60lbs now.

Shoestring Reefer
09/21/2004, 02:14 PM
Ok, good to know.

35gallonhex
09/21/2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by frogguy1
Tucc185 made a comment about people not being able to afford Lr, shouldnt be in the hobby. I can afford and still choose to go with the method of seeding Non-LR. Its simply a matter of what an individual prefers. Everyone in the hobby knows what may work for one guy, may not work for the other. Why spend hundreds of dollars on LR for my new 200g tank when I can spend less than half of that, and be able to spend more money on more important equipment(lighting,skimmers,etc.), or simply spend more money on everyday things. Its a hobby not your life. Priorities is all I have to say.

i concur. initial costs are what are getting me down. i will have no problem with up keep and the occasional replacement. i actually get quit offended:mad2: when i am told that if thats too much this hobby is not for you, because i am asking about lower costs and stating things about the expence of this or that, doesnt mean i have "No right to be in this hobby" as an unnamed person shall go unnamed told me in a pm. i absolutly adore the ocean and all the little creatures (most of them). who are you to tell me i have no right just because things are a little expensive. just because i cant seem to find some kind of money tree. i work hard to make my money and support my family. who are you to tell me i cant enjoy something as much as another person, just because i have less money. :mad2:

sorry for the vent but that was really getting to me.:D :D :D

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/21/2004, 05:59 PM
dead bones is the way 2 go !!

35gallonhex
09/21/2004, 06:01 PM
due to calcium? is there any other reason besides that and looks i am curious

panamaembraced
09/22/2004, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by 35gallonhex
[B] who are you to tell me i have no right just because things are a little expensive. just because i cant seem to find some kind of money tree. i work hard to make my money and support my family. who are you to tell me i cant enjoy something as much as another person, just because i have less money. :mad2:



:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

BlackGrouper
09/22/2004, 08:54 AM
Question. I have a friend that is out of the hobby and gave me 50 or so pounds of dry rock (it was live at one point), he told he never used any drug to treat diseases on his tank. So I'm assuming it is safe to use.

My only concern is that this has been sitting on a corner at his garage for one year, and there is the potential of contact with chemicals (insect control spray for example).

It is beatiful shaped rock (hand picked pieces), and I would hate not to use it.

What would be the best way to clean this rock and get it ready for re-use?

Shoestring Reefer
09/22/2004, 09:06 AM
Funny, I almost got some rock in the same condition, but it was too far to drive and too heavy to pay for shipping. But here's what I determined:

It's going to have some organics in from all the stuff that died, so I'd clean it off real good and then let it "cure" like live rock that's been shipped. Keep it in a tub of salt water with a heater and flow until the ammonia and nitrite are gone, and make sure it doesn't produce a ton of nitrates.

As far as chemicals: after it's cured, do a water change, wait a few days, then throw in something and see if it lives. Other than that, all you can do is trust it. Do you really suspect it was contaminated, or are you just being carefull? If it's next to a leaking bottle of bugspray, I wouldn't use it.

tgunn
09/22/2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by 35gallonhex
i concur. initial costs are what are getting me down. i will have no problem with up keep and the occasional replacement. i actually get quit offended:mad2: when i am told that if thats too much this hobby is not for you, because i am asking about lower costs and stating things about the expence of this or that, doesnt mean i have "No right to be in this hobby" as an unnamed person shall go unnamed told me in a pm. i absolutly adore the ocean and all the little creatures (most of them). who are you to tell me i have no right just because things are a little expensive. just because i cant seem to find some kind of money tree. i work hard to make my money and support my family. who are you to tell me i cant enjoy something as much as another person, just because i have less money. :mad2:

sorry for the vent but that was really getting to me.:D :D :D

I believe what it really comes down to is whether or not you're caring for your tank inhabitants using the best of your resources and knowledge. This doesn't mean that you need to go out and use all top of the line brand name equipment, etc IMHO. Your fish and corals aren't going to care if the skimmer pulling gunk out of the water is a brand name or whether it's made out of a few rubbermaid containers.

Given the costs associated with this hobby, I think it's perfectly reasonable to try to cut down costs where possible. If DIY live rock works just as well as "real" live rock, then awesome! I'm not saying "cut corners", I'm saying, "cut costs". The same overall healthy system can be achieved at less cost without harming it's inhabitants..

I'm reminded of when my friend saw the basement floor in my house for the first time. In the area I live in there's not a single basement without a cracked concrete basement floor (the soil conditions here are such that this is a fact of life).. My friend's comment was, "Oh, those cracks aren't good; you should just rip out the entire basement floor and repour the slab; it's the only RIGHT way to do it..".. Umm, sure I could do that and get a perfect crack free floor, but patching the cracks works just as well and achieves the same end result at 1/100000 the cost.

:) Time to step off the soap box.

BlackGrouper
09/22/2004, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
Funny, I almost got some rock in the same condition, but it was too far to drive and too heavy to pay for shipping. But here's what I determined:

It's going to have some organics in from all the stuff that died, so I'd clean it off real good and then let it "cure" like live rock that's been shipped. Keep it in a tub of salt water with a heater and flow until the ammonia and nitrite are gone, and make sure it doesn't produce a ton of nitrates.

As far as chemicals: after it's cured, do a water change, wait a few days, then throw in something and see if it lives. Other than that, all you can do is trust it. Do you really suspect it was contaminated, or are you just being carefull? If it's next to a leaking bottle of bugspray, I wouldn't use it.

just being careful. can I used regular tap water with a garden hose for the first clean up?

Shoestring Reefer
09/22/2004, 10:24 AM
I did for my dry base rock, and would again. But I also had a town water report to make me feel all warm and fuzzy when I did it. People cure DIY rock in tap water, too.

Actually, what I did was to hold each piece of dry base rock under the faucet and knock out the crud. There were some leaves and some kind of cocoon.

mdellyd
09/22/2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by tucc185
I mean, if you reallly couldn't afford live rock, a saltwater tank may not be the best hobby for you. It's a very expensive hobby, even without the cost of live rock.

Who says the saltwater fish hobby is expensive????

Compared to what! I paid $1,500.00 for full-suspension Sugar mountain bike and I have not paid anywhere near that much to setup five saltwater fish tanks, albeit small ones, I will have for the rest of my life. I am not sure I will have the bike for the rest of my life, lol.

Maybe you should say the saltwater hobby is expensive for some of us, poor thing. It ain't expensive to me.

LOL

mdt178
09/22/2004, 04:13 PM
Ditto that, SW/reef is a hobby that's gonna take some $ and time. But here how's I see it.
$20K vehicle: avg 1-2 hrs of enjoyment everyday.
$6K plasma TV: 2-3 hrs.
$1K nanoreef: 2-3 hrs.
YMMV

35gallonhex
09/22/2004, 05:47 PM
I believe what it really comes down to is whether or not you're caring for your tank inhabitants using the best of your resources and knowledge. This doesn't mean that you need to go out and use all top of the line brand name equipment, etc IMHO. Your fish and corals aren't going to care if the skimmer pulling gunk out of the water is a brand name or whether it's made out of a few rubbermaid containers.

Given the costs associated with this hobby, I think it's perfectly reasonable to try to cut down costs where possible. If DIY live rock works just as well as "real" live rock, then awesome! I'm not saying "cut corners", I'm saying, "cut costs". The same overall healthy system can be achieved at less cost without harming it's inhabitants


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/23/2004, 03:36 AM
well said mdellyd !!

Shoestring Reefer
09/23/2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by tgunn
I believe what it really comes down to is whether or not you're caring for your tank inhabitants using the best of your resources and knowledge. To add to that in a different way: you also have to consider what you can take care of with you resources and knowledge. My appartment gets pretty warm, so if I was going to keep SPSs and clams I'd need a chiller for the MH lights, and a CA reactor. None of that is going to happen, so I don't keep SPS.

You can be VERY successfull on a low budget if you just stick to what can thrive in your system.

Cody Ray
09/23/2004, 03:40 PM
$6K plasma TV: 2-3 hrs.

I probably watch more than that, lol!

Ehydo
09/24/2004, 08:28 AM
$6K plasma TV: 2-3 hrs a week for me...I sold the plasma to pay for some of my other hobbies

35gallonhex
09/24/2004, 05:25 PM
hehe lets get this thread back on track so it dont get moved

Cody Ray
09/24/2004, 09:50 PM
What were we talking about again??? lol

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/25/2004, 03:34 AM
rethinking the use of live rock !

Mach's Tank
09/25/2004, 07:59 AM
I see that Hirock is sold out right now. Was wondering (in my ghetto mind) has snyone ever tried some of the landscaping places for rock? And if so what do you look for when you purchase from them. It would seem some rocks would have minerals in them that would elach out over time, but I'm a newb, so what do I know.:rollface:

Frick-n-Frags
09/25/2004, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by KwajRocks
Where did you hand-pick your rock? On-line? Locally?


Yes, I hand picked it locally. I get it from two LFS's who get really nice rock in and I try to get it the day after the shipment shows up if possible. So if I'm looking, I ask when the next batch of LR is coming in and make sure I'm there.

I even bought rubble rock that was awesome at $2/lb once, but it was fresh and covered with stuff so *** I was looking for the new life that was on it.

Paul B
09/25/2004, 08:16 AM
I hand picked mine too. For free. If you don't count the expense of going to the Caribbean and diving for it. LOL.
Paul

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 11:31 AM
Sorry guys. This sucks but it looks like us Base rockers ARE just cheap unless we got deep sand beds and do lots of water changes. Heres what Ron Shimek just posted in my thread in his forum.

Hi,

A) Assuming little or no live rock is present as seed,
can "dead" rock be adequately colonized by these tiny
animals in a reasonably short time (months rather than
years)?

No. In general, it won't be colonized by the appropriate animals at all, really. Most of them appear to be relatively long-lived and, in general, they reproduce by the means of planktonic larvae. Without either parents or the capability of maintianing the larvae, the animals will be there.

B) Assuming these tiny worms can colonize "dead" rock
quickly enough for our purposes, what is the best way to
do this? Like seeding a sand bed, can I aquascape using
nothing by "dead" rock and then sprinkle a large bag of
these worms over my rocks?[/b]

Nope. The worms are unavailable for purchase anywhere. The common "so-called" detritivores available for purchase are not the worms that move the water.

Can these tiny animals be cultivated, harvested, and then sold in a "live" rock starter-kit? Are these the same animals sold in "live
sand" starter-kits?

1)Probably, but they are not. and 2) no, respectively.

C) Must these animals migrate from established "live"
rock? How long does that take? Weeks? Months? Years?[/b]

See the first answer above.

nigel
09/25/2004, 01:22 PM
Just think of all the hobbyist who threw out their live rock after their tank crashed. Because the were told it was no good.
Old dry rock and one piece of live rock is good enough .

FlipFlops24/7
09/25/2004, 01:49 PM
Bummer, Hirocks is sold out huh? I just got a 30lb shipment of large rock from them. So let me get this straight(because Im still a newb):

If I take two of these pieces of base rock and put them in a seperate 10 gallon tank with a large piece of live rock, they will eventually turn into live rock too?

webpolk
09/25/2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Debaser
Bummer, Hirocks is sold out huh? I just got a 30lb shipment of large rock from them. So let me get this straight(because Im still a newb):

If I take two of these pieces of base rock and put them in a seperate 10 gallon tank with a large piece of live rock, they will eventually turn into live rock too?

Yes, they will.

Steve

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 03:20 PM
NO!!! are you guys ignoring me completely? Read what Dr. Ron Shimek a man with a PhD and job studying this told us! Im sorry guys but dont ignore it! Base rock will NEVER become live rock! Except in the ocean in the presence of 10 gajillion of the worms. Base rock will become live rock in aquariums in all manners except its ability to process nitrates. So unless you plan on battling nitrates with another method i guess we are stuck wiht live rock guys.

Cody Ray
09/25/2004, 03:31 PM
You don't seem to understand what you have been told. What makes you think that denitifying bacteria can not colonize a substrate? He said that it won't be colonized by the appropriate animals, nothing of bacteria was ever mentioned. Bacteria are not animals. It is the bacteria, not the "animals" that convert ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. These bacteria travel via the water colum.

Saltz Creep
09/25/2004, 03:42 PM
http://img15.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Cannonball888/untitled.jpg

...and God spoketh unto Abraham, "Go forth and useth living rock for thy aquarium" Thou shalt not use false rocks for I am an angry god". And so forth went Abraham and he did as God commanded unto him, and saw he that it was good...

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 03:46 PM
Go and read Shimek's research on how live rock works. You are half right. Pseudomonas sp. in certain conditions reduce nitrate. The main condition they need is anaerobic water. This is found in 2 spots in aquariums. The first is a deep sand bed, but we all know there are problems associated with DSB for some people (this is why i suggest if you use base rock you have a DSB or do many water changes). The other place is deep inside of rock. Now in an aquarium there are no ways to push water into the rock to feed the Pseudomonas bacteria. They would therefore colonize the area (if they could get in there in the first place which is what has been disproven by Shimek) and then they use up all the nitrate in the stagnant water in the holes. They would then starve (or become inactive, either way). The way that the water gets into the rocks is through the movement of certain worms that are contained in live rock. They slowly bring in water which is processed slowly by the bacteria. The problem now is that these worms live a long time and do not reproduce quickly. THey are also not availible commercially. This is what Shimek is referring to.

Sorry guys i should have brought that up earlier. But make sure you realize that now when planning base rock aquariums. You will need a nitrate reducing system other than your rocks.

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 03:46 PM
hhahaha that was hilarious!

Mach's Tank
09/25/2004, 03:47 PM
I agree with InuYasha.
I just finished reading that thread gato, and from what I gather, Dr Ron is saying you can effectively turn base rock into LR. This will give you the natural filtering affect we are looking for. Waht he is saying in you above quote is that all of the diversity of species of life will not reproduce and colonize your BR. This would make sense to me. But the main purpose of using BR is cost savings. It may take alittle time, but BR will turn into an excellent filtering source.
This is my conclusion from reading this, and it's the route I plan on taking.
Yippee - Skippee ...... money saved:)

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 03:51 PM
Mach im not sure if you started writing before i finished my last post or not. Did you get to read it?

Mach's Tank
09/25/2004, 03:59 PM
Read it after I posted... guess we were typing at the same time. ;)

Hopefully, we can clear this up. At least for what I feel my purposes of using BR/LR mixture are in my tank... cost savings!
I have just posted a question on your thread at Dr Ron's Gato. To me, this is the essence of what we are looking for. Hopefully, he'll answer soon and then we'll have a definative answer.

Quote from the other thread:

Dr Ron,
Thanks for putting up with all of newbs and know it alls.
To me, the real question I am looking at is:
Is it ok to use BR / LR mix in our tanks?
I am thinking of going with a 80% BR / 20% LR. Probably will go with more LR, or add as time goes on.
I understand that animal life will not be very diverse, but will the essesential elements grow and thrive in this type of a situation to create a workable tank reef system.

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 04:13 PM
Hmmm ya that is a good question but i think he is going to answer that it is impossible to tell because really it depends on what you are going to put in your tank right? The more nitrogen you introduce the more nitrate and therefore the more percentage of LR youd need. I guess that is something worth considering in certain situations but it wouldnt seem practical in most tanks which are aimed at nutrient deficiency. But dont forget to mention about DSB's. Those are where the majority of nitrate reduction occurs (at least i believe that is what the docs say). If you are going to use DSB youd probably be fine using 100% base rock (if you dont mind the lack of hitchhikers). But the trend is starting to lean towards no DSB's. I myself am no longer a follower. They trap nutrients like phosphate sponges except they dont hold them permanently.

Let me put it this way. If i were making a brand new SPS tank, i would use 50% crushed coral, 50% silica playsand (never had trouble with silica sand as much as some ppl say it causes diatoms. the pH would have to drop VERY low to dissolve silica sand as far as some ppl and I discussing it have figd in another thread) and 50% BR and 50% LR (as i usually dont add much food into my systems i have kept) and would do 10% weekly changes.

Oh and who are you referring to as newbs and know it alls? I cant think of any1 who has been TOO rude on this thread lol

valkrdr
09/25/2004, 04:24 PM
this is the most over-analyzed hobby in the world . it doesnt matter what Shimek or anyone else says. the proof is in the pudding . look at the pics of the tanks that have been started using the base rock and then seeded. do they support marine life ? do they have have corraline algae growing on the rocks ? do they look good ? if the answer is yes , what more proof do you need ? why is it that so many people seem to need someone with a PHD to tell them what to do ? i have been doing marine tanks for over 15 years and have found that most of the so-called experts in this hobby are usually not worth listening to . they write real nice books to sell you and profess to know everything , but usually just the opposite is true. the guy that started the thread is absolutely correct. and furthermore i am glad to see that regular guys and gals are starting to question some of the long-held and expensive ideas and so-called experts in this hobby. its a good thing in my book . the main thing in this hobby is to do things slooooooooooooooooooooooooowly ! its the impatient ones that usually end up with a disaster . in my years in this hobby the one thing this is unquestionable is that you should take a very long and slow approach to establishing a tank. then longer the better. again , look at the pictures of the tanks , this should be all the proof you need that you dont need to spend thousands of dollars on rocks making other people very rich in the process.

Shoestring Reefer
09/25/2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by gatohoser
Sorry guys. This sucks but it looks like us Base rockers ARE just cheap unless we got deep sand beds and do lots of water changes. I have dry base rock and DIY rock, I used to have 10 lbs of live rock but gave it away a while ago. ZERO live rock. ZERO sand. NO skimmer. NO water changes for a few months. I harvest very little macro-algae because it barely grows in my tank anymore. I have only three fish, but my two clowns get saturation feedings twice a day, so IMO plenty of food is put into the tank.

My nitrates as follows:
03/04/04 Undetectable (with DSB and small skimmer)
03/10/04 20+ (Removed DSB and skimmer)
04/14/04 5
06/30/04 2-5
07/05/04 2-5
07/14/04 1.0
07/26/04 0.2-1.0
08/04/04 0.2
08/11/04 0.2
08/27/04 0.2
09/06/04 0.2

The DIY rock and dry base rock appear to have no problems processing nitrate.

Originally posted by gatohoser
Read what Dr. Ron Shimek a man with a PhD and job studying this told us! Dr. Ron isn't the only one with a PhD on RC, and not all of them agree on many topics.

KwajRocks
09/25/2004, 04:55 PM
Yes, I hand picked it locally. I get it from two LFS's who get really nice rock in and I try to get it the day after the shipment shows up if possible.

Thanks Frick-n-Frags, and PaulB, you're just lucky!;)

Cody Ray
09/25/2004, 05:12 PM
Lol, PaulB is a funny guy! His "base rock" if I remember correctly is asfault from an old runway! If anyone is interested, my first system was built from live rock. After about a year I decided to upgrade the tank to a 60. I didn't like it, so I sold the 60 to Ron and kept my rock in a 15 gallon container until I could clean up my 29. Well the container sprung a leak and the rock was left high and dry for a couple of weeks. Now my system is using the same rock. It was basicly dry rock. Now it is covered with coralline and full of worms and what have you. My nitrates and phosphates are undetectable. It is doing better now than it ever did.

Piero
09/25/2004, 05:33 PM
Well, decided to pop in and see what all the posting was about on my thread, and boy was i surprised!

let me repeat my point, because some are totally misinterpereting Shmiek imo....

There is no scientific reason to believe that you cannot obtain all the necessary microfauna for your reef from a few chunks of LR, and from the rocks you get when you buy coral that is attached to substrate. No need to pay out the wazoo for a whole tank full of LR. Bacteria easily colonizes dry rock, it's just unscientific to assume otherwise, if you know anything about bacteria and biology.

My healthy reef and those of amny others speak for themselves. Mine was only about 10% LR at start, the rest was dry fiji and marshall island. ALL microfauna/bacteria in my reef came from other tanks in the area, or hitched a ride on livestock.

No sand bed either, and i have had a mandarin in there for over 2 years...so you tell me, what is that mandarin eating if not microfauna that colonized the tank?....:P However my wrasse population seemed to have wiped out my worm population ages ago...

and also, any pods, worms, etc, can be gotten easily from local reef tanks for free, or from the lfs for next to nothing. take biology 101 and confirm for yourselves. The idea of bacterial and microfauna colonization is not a new idea. Just my humble .02.

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 05:50 PM
***......i had a long post typed out and it hit reset form while i typed without touchign anything. Bleh i dont even feel liek retyping. Very good points Shoestring reefer! You should have told us earlier since we been discussing this for over a week! I had never heard of a story about nitrate processing from base rock without a skimmmer or DSB. Maybe you do have some worms pushing stuff through your rocks tho? Or maybe some kind of pod is doin it?

Valkdr, that sounds like some anarchistic personality making its way into your decisions. Just because there have been a few bad professionals out there leading ppl the wrong way doesnt mean a PhD and life-time career is worthless. I guess by those words we should just stop listening to our family doctors and every other type of expert out there? It is these same ppl who have discovered countless other helpful things for our hobby thru marine biology.

harsaphes
09/25/2004, 06:16 PM
hi everyone....well i just ordered my 30 gallon cube...waiting..in the mean time, i am going barebottom and want to use base rock and a small amount of LR.....my question is how much base rock vs live rock do i need to get started....i dont want the rock to be to crowded, kind of open looking for better water movement.
thankyou

Saltz Creep
09/25/2004, 06:19 PM
Personally I would do 20-25lbs BR and 20-25lbs LR.

harsaphes
09/25/2004, 06:22 PM
do i really want that much rock in the tank?

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 06:23 PM
Piero...humble my butt lol:)

Anyways what we were talking about wasnt microfauna in general. Were talking about a specific type of worm that inhabits live rocks and live rock only in his opinion in the time frame of a nano reef. These are what are believed by him (and me) to be the cause of nitrate reduction from rocks. In the last few hours this has been challenged. I am now starting to wonder if it is true but i still think there is a chance Shoestring reefer and the other peoples tanks may have something else going on. It would be a good experiment to take some kind of flow measurer and seal it into the center of live rocks and put them in high flow tanks and low flow tanks and direct flow and see if any flow is noticed. Do this with base rock and live rock to concur if it is from worms or water flow. Any1 volunteer? Ive been back and forth on this subject so dont turn this into a flame war. You know who u are.

Anyways. I refer you all to this article. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/feature/index.htm . If you have something to argue, please argue it in a scientific matter because to say BR is just as good as LR is a theory. When you have evidence one way or another thats a start. But there are a lot of things to consider. Many of you probably skim well and use DSB. Ah im done im gonna wait for more developments from Shimek or if anybody would like to bring in who some PhD who they respect.

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 06:25 PM
Harsaphes, we all feel differently at this point. If you have the time wait a little bit longer if you plan on having your tank long term. See what develops in teh next day or 2 on this subject cuz i think there can be more to be said.

Mach's Tank
09/25/2004, 06:25 PM
Let me throw a theoretical question at everyone.

Base rock seems to run about $1.30/lb and up. For example, hirock sells 60lbs fro $80 shipping incl.
Thats not to bad a price.
What if you could get LR for $3/lb? Is it worth the price difference for the extra $1.50 to get all LR right off the bat?

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 06:30 PM
Id say for sure if it were less than 100 gallons if it were a less dense type of LR. I have bought LR for 1.99 a few times. Meckel and me are discussin this over the phone and he just brought up a question for Shoestring reefer and since hes lazy ill post it:). You say you had a DSB with some LR. Perhaps some of these fauna populated your DSB and migrated. Rereading Shimeks article he says it is not JUST worms but other fauna in the rocks. Which would mean that it can possibly colonize faster. IM sick of this subject so could some1 plz post to shimek how fast the OTHER animals that produce motion in rock reproduce because this could explain your success and many others and could also mean that BR is just as good scientifically and not just "cuz i said so" :)

Paul B
09/25/2004, 08:44 PM
Who said most of my rock is asphalt from a runway? Some of my rock is asphalt that was dumped in the ocean 50 years ago. Anyway, Someone else also said I was lucky. I don't know if I am lucky to keep my reef so long or if I was lucky to be able to collect my rock in the Caribbean or because I am so good looking. No thats not it. Anyway, You can absolutely posatively start your reef with all base rock. I guarantee it. All the rock I collected in Hawaii and the Caribbean was bleached before I carried it on the plane. There was no live rock for sale when I started my tank. The tank is full of tube worms and all kinds of living things and I have never put in any live rock from the tropics. Only local New York rock. The bacteria do not know the difference. I have a brootalid (spelling) fish for 16 years and I have never fed it. Not even once. It never comes out in the daytime. I don't know what it eats and I don't care but the fact is that the fish is 6" long and it must be eating something that is reproducing in there. The creatures in my reef must have been introduced with the corals. Rons post is a little confusing to me so I won't comment on it. I also don't have a DSB. Anyway, I am confusing myself with this post and I will go back to just being lucky.
Paul

gatohoser
09/25/2004, 10:37 PM
Maybe i should edit my post of his comments to put them in context......people keep misunderstanding him.

Paul B- Nobody doubts that LR can be colonized by everything LR is except for slow reproducing organisms. Shimek was referring specifically to types of worms and fauna that inhabit LR and force water through it. The worms chemically dig holes in the rock (which is why its so porous) and move back and forth in these holes moving water with them. The discussion at the moment would appear to be, is Shimek's research correct. Most ppl who have posted recently dont believe that this is how nitrate is brought into rocks in LR because they believe and in one instance even proved that his rock is processing nitrates. Although i dont have answers to that specific person or to the questions posed i believe Shimek's research because it makes so much physical sense. In my mind its kinda like a venturi shaped the wrong way. Water blowing by wont enter the rock. The only explanation i could think of is that there are very shallow layers of anaerobic pockets on all rock that has been around for a few weeks or until the cycle is complete which could process nitrates which would explain the lack of 0 nitrates in the given tank. Im going to ask shimek to clarify what the "fauna" is that does the moving thru the rocks so i can get us some research on them and their life spans and reproduction so it cant be argued. Stay around Paul B cuz we could use your experience with a BR tank to learn some stuff. The one thing that comes to mind though Paul is that you used LR. Sure it had bleached but this takes 10 minutes out of water to bleach corraline. It just has to thoroughly dry outside. You could have been carrying water deep in the rock in the anaerobic sections keeping the critters alive. You say you never put rock in from the tropics but then you proceed to say you brought rock from the caribbean and hawaii. Could you explain further please?

timespinner
09/26/2004, 01:47 AM
I tend to agree with Piero's last post... just my two cents.

gatohoser
09/26/2004, 02:03 AM
Lets keep from being belittling Piero. You are no more aware of the way to do things than any1 else so stay open to new ideas.

Now heres the new breaking news from Shimek that right now has opened me again to the possibility that it is possible with enough live rock to culture BR to LR quickly.

First i will give a link to the thread for all who havent been following along. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3519220#post3519220

Second ill quote for every1 too lazy to read that thread:)
When asked by me this, "Dr. Shimek could i please have some names of the animals you found to cause the movement in the rocks?"
Dr. Shimek responded with this,
"Hi,

Most of the animals that would be living in the rocks and causing water movement by their activities are polychaete worms of several types. These are worms that live in burrows in the rocks that they may construct or in pores in the rocks that they occupy.

The worm array is very diverse. In some studies about 30 years ago 2 researchers were able to find 864 worms from 35 species in a small rock with about 53 square inches of surface area; in other rocks comparable values were found. By and large these are worms that are filter feeders or scavengers. By moving in and out of the rock, as they feed, they pump water into the rock. Additionally, they also simply pump water into their burrows to ventilate their burrows so they can breathe.

The references listing the worm species found in the rocks are:

Kohn, A. J. and M. C. Lloyd. 1973a. Polychaetes of Truncated Reef Limestone Substrates on Eastern Indian Ocean Coral Reefs: Diversity, Abundance, and Taxonomy. Int. Revue ges. Hydrobiologie. 58: 369-399

Kohn, A. J. and M. C. Lloyd. 1973b. Marine Polychaete Annelids of Easter Island. Int. Revue ges. Hydrobiologie. 58: 691-712.

To get information on their reproduction of these worms, you can check out:

Fauchald, K. 1977. The polychaete worms; definitions and keys to the orders, families, and genera. Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County. Los Angeles, CA. 188pp.

To find out what they eat and other aspects of their habits cross reference the species or families in the first articles with this article:

Fauchald, K. and P. Jumars. 1979. The diet of worms: a study of polychaete feeding guilds. Oceanography and Marine Biology Annual Review. 17:193-284.

Happy trails... "

In this i find my newest question and reason to question his earlier statements.

Here is what i asked him, "Dr. Shimek, if there are 35 different species of worm in a single rock how can you say that they reproduce slowly? Are they all from the same genus or lower classification? Isnt it possible that considering there are so many kinds that some of them reproduce quickly therefore allowing base rock to become equal to live rock in the aspect of nitrate-processing much faster than previously stated?"

Im going to wait for the response before i even think about this subject any more, but i hope every1 is learning a lot from all this as much as i am! Great discussion! Lets keep it up!

Anybody else got any reasons why they think BR may have something missing?

SOMEthinsFISHY
09/26/2004, 03:21 AM
wow gato u sure were busy the last 2 days with this thread !!
a very nice read though thanks 4 your input !!

Frick-n-Frags
09/26/2004, 04:45 AM
I keep saying, you can get the nitrifyers onto cinderblocks and clay flowerpots, just like a good old FO tank. But the good stuff has to come in on the real live rock, and fully curing real live rock kills a ton of stuff off. That is why I think fully cured LR is a waste.

So it makes sense to cycle your tank with base rock, then slowly build in the real UNCURED LR over time since the cycled baserock will handle any dieoff that does happen on the fresh rock. You just have to go slowly adding LR so you don't OD your nitrifyers.
It has been stated already earlier: GOOOO SLOOOOOOWWW!!

Somebody mentioned rock that corals come in on: perfect! That stuff is babied and kept in water because of the coral. I used to buy gawdawful ugly rocks of shrooms for $29 but the rocks were huge and full of featherworms, brittle stars etc. IMO, the ultimate LR, with bonus gawdawful ugly shrooms to boot :D

The de-nitraters and the other big diversity will be in the real LR and over time has a good chance of spreading onto the baserock, but at least what fresh LR there is functions right out of the chute.

Now I have to get ready for a gigunda fragswap.....

Shoestring Reefer
09/27/2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by gatohoser
***......i had a long post typed out and it hit reset form while i typed without touchign anything. Tell me about it. I wish my web browser (or the RC reply box) had an "undo" button.

I have no problem believing that organisms cause water movement inside rocks; it seems pretty obvious to me. What I have not seen explained is why the only organisms that cause water movement can't reproduce in our tanks, or take years to reproduce. Bristle worms will move water, so will little starfish and any of the other stuff I have in my rocks.

As far as where the critters on my rock came from: live rock to sand to base rock, or live rock to base rock, I don't know. I DID have the sand, live rock, and base rock at the same time, and the live rock was on top of the base rock, so it's possible that some of the life just moved from the live rock to the base rock.

Originally posted by gatohoser
could some1 plz post to shimek how fast the OTHER animals that produce motion in rock reproduce because this could explain your success and many others and could also mean that BR is just as good scientifically and not just "cuz i said so"Well, I know bristle worms reproduce pretty fast; same as everything else I have. I won't bother asking Dr. Ron because I'm not too concerned about it.

As ar as "scientific" validation vs. "cuz i said so": discussing reproduction rates, densities, likelyhood of migration, and diversity is well and good; but if you're asking about the ability to denitrify, then the foreront of the discussion should be denitrification. Any "scientific" study would involve seeding some base rock, removing the live rock, and seeing if the base rock can denitrify. That's been done by many hobbyists. I haven't seen a comparison of live rock vs dry rock in terms of which does it better, but IMO there's no evidence that one does it worse.

In my opinion: saying base rock can't denitrify as well as live rock because it lacks certain organisms, without prooving those particular organisms are required for denitrification and can't be replaced by other organisms, is "cuz i said so".

One Other Thing: There has been some frequent discussion in the past few months about placing live rock in a darkened area, with a heater and water flow, and let the bacteria use up the detritus and other organics in the rock. I won't get into the specifics of the how or why; a search for "cooking live rock" will help you answer those questions. What I would like to note is that when starting with base rock, you are essentially starting with something nearly free of those organics (except for old cocoons and leaves, so rinse well) and need to add the corraline and critters, rather than remove the organics-and you can do that in your tank. :)

Puffers
09/27/2004, 01:00 PM
IMO the question we could be asking is how much flow should be going through our rocks? Would a "base rock" tank require more water flow through the rocks because there isn't as many worms? This is difficult to determine and do because water will take the path of least resistance. Is there also a consideration of a "proper" worm population/bioload for a given tank? If the worm population is not kept in check by fish will this cause the tank "long" term problems?.

Shoestring Reefer
09/27/2004, 01:09 PM
Puffers-
All good suggestions, but determining the impact of things we can't measure in our tanks isn't all that helpfull in the long run.