Cooking Live Rock - Exact Process?

[reefsociety101]

Hi,

I've been reading alot about this process of "cooking" live rock. What does this process actually entail? Are we actually heating up the live rock in an oven? How would one go about cooking the live rock? What is the benefits and should it be done to existing mature rock or newly cured/uncured rock. I apologize for the new question but even after using the search option I was unable to figure out exactly what this is.

Thanks!

Michael

[pi]

I have no first hand knowledge, but have read severl references to the technique.

The idea is to clean your older liverock by placing in new clean ASW. Every 7 days or so you give the rock a good shake and take it out and place it in a new container of ASW. You repeat this for 6 to 8 weeks.

The idea is you give the bateria in the rock nothing to feed upon except the "stuff" in the rock (organics) and over time clean it out.

It was either boomer or bomber ( get them mixed up) who I saw make the first reference to "cooking" the rock and you can search on their name for more info. You can also try seant who I believe used this technique successfully. I am thinking of trying it myself, using a few rocks at a time to "revamp" my older rock.

[reefsociety101]

Pi,

Thank You! So should this process be performed on nearly acquired live rock? Isn't this process a mirror of the same curing process we use for newly acquired live rock? I'm starting a new tank and was wondering if I should perform this process on new rock.

Also during this process should I be skimming heavily?

Michael

[MiddletonMark]

Here's one thread about it:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=405128&highlight=cooking+rock

[pi]

I do not see any benefit to using this technique on new rock. The idea is for cleaning older rock that may have become saturated. Think of it as recharging the rock.

Though it has some similarities to curing new rock I would not say the two are exact. Curing has more to do with amonia/nitrate/nitrite cycle as well as dead dying life that came in with the rock.

[reefsociety101]

Thanks guys, always something new to learn. *Smile.

[MiddletonMark]

I'd agree with Pi too - but figured an informative link is good too.

I've only used this on `old' rock personally - which makes it seem `new' yet without the coralline. I'm not sure if you need to make new rock more `new' seeming :)

[Ssaah]

I prefer using a pre-heated oven at 375 degrees.

Lightly salt and pepper the rock and place it on a cookie sheet in the oven. Bake for 1 hour.

For extra flavor a lemon-saltwater glaze can be used to baste it every 15 minutes.

Tastes just like mom used to make!

[pi]

...mmmm I can smell it now. Just like being a kid again!

[mps9506]

I cooked my rock from October of last year until Febuary in prepreation for a move and new tank setup.
Works very well, I got rid of a ton of crud out of my rock, the detrius buildup in my new barebottom setup is very low.

I personally will do the same thing to any new rock I buy, even if it means I don't get the associated life on my rock.
Mike

[SeanT]

Originally posted by SeanT
Dave,
Sure thing.
But before I do I just want to say that Bomber instructed me how to do it several months ago and it works great. So it is his process that I am trying to make popular and cause fellow hobbyists a lot less heartache in the long term.
The purpose of "cooking" your rocks is to have tha bacteria consume all (or as much) organic material and PO4 stored on, and in, the rock as possible.

The first step to this is commitment.
You have to be willing to remove your rock from the tank.
It doesn't have to be all at once, but I feel if you are going to do this do it all. In stages if that is easier but make sure that all of it gets done.

The new environment you are creating for your rock is to take it from an algal driven to a bacterial driven system.
In order to this, the rock needs to be in total darkness to retard and eventually kill the algae's on the rock and to give the bacteria time to do the job.

So basically you need tubs to hold the rock.

Equipment needed.
1. Dedication.
2. Tubs to cook rock in. And an equal amount of tubs to hold the rock during waterchanges.
3. A few powerheads.
4. Plenty of buckets.
5. A smug feeling of superiority that you are taking it to "the next level." :D

Here are the steps, if you have any questions I will try my best to answer them. What I don't know I am sure Bomber can/will instruct.

1. Get into your head and accept the fact you will be making lots of salt water if you aren't lucky enough to have access to filtered NSW.
2. Explain to significant other what is going on so they don't flip out. This process can take up to 2 months. Prepare them in advance so he/she can mark it on the calendar and that they won't nag about it until that date arrives. ;)
3. Setup a tub(s) where the rock is to be cooked. Garages are great for this.
4. Make up enough water to fill tub(s) about halfway and around 5-7 buckets about 60% full.
5. Remove all the rock you want to cook at this stage. (The rock can be removed piece by piece until you are done.) I suggest shutting off the circulation beforehand to minimize dust storms.
6. Take the first piece of rock and dunk it, swish it, very, very well in the first bucket. Then do it again in the 2nd bucket, then the third.
7. Place rock in the tub.
8. Repeat steps 6 & 7 to every piece of rock you want to cook at this time. The reason I suggested 5-7 buckets of water will be evident quickly...as the water quickly turnsq brown. ;)
9. Place powerhead(s) in the tub and plug in. Position at least one powerhead so that it agitates the surface of the water pretty well. This is to keep the water oxygenated. You can use an air pump for additional oxygenation if you wish.
9. Cover the tub. Remember, we want total darkness.
10. Empty out buckets, restart circulation on main tank.
11. Wait.
12. During the first couple of weeks it is recommended to do a swishing and dunking of the rocks twice a week.
What this entails is to make up enough water to fill up those buckets and the tub the rock is in.
First, lay out your empty tub(s) and fill buckets the same as before.
Then, uncover tub with the rock in it. Take a rock and swish it in the tub it's in to knock any easy to get off junk.
Then, swish it thru the 3 buckets again, and place in the empty tub..
Repeat for all your rocks.
Then empty the tub that all the rocks were cooking in, take it outside and rinse it out with a hose.
Place tub back where it was, fill with new saltwater, add rocks and powerheads, and cover.
Wait again unti the next water change.
You will be utterly amazed at how much sand, silt, detrius is at the bottom of the tub and every bucket. It is amazing.

How it works:


Some FAQ's.
When re-introducing the rock to my tank, a month or two from now, should I do that in parts to help minimize any cycling effect(s)...if there are any?
I never have. Really after a very short while, the ammonium cycle has been extablished. That's not what you're worry about though, it's the stored phosphates and that you have to wait it out.
When they are producing very little detritus - you'll know - then I would use them all at once.

Would running Carbon filtration and/or a PO4 reducing media help/hurry/hinder the process?
I wouldn't fool with it. You don't want the detritus to sit there long enough to rot, release water soluble P again. You want to take it out while it's still locked up in that bacterial detritus.




I hope this helps you out.
It really is a "miracle" and a low cost one at that.
The only monies spent are for salt and electricity for the powerheads which are nominal. Especially to rid yourself of Bryopsis.
Time and effort is all it akes. And really not that much effort.
I would say that 85% of my exposed rock had Bryopsis (hair algae) covering it.
There isn't a single visible strand on andy rocks in the tubs now.
Remember, the key is patience. Let this process run its course.

And a few last minute tidbits I remembered.
Your coralline will die back, receed etc.
My thoughts on this are GREAT!
Now my rock is more porous for additional pods, mysids, worms etc.
Coralline will grow back.
Throughout this process the sponges, and pods on my rock have not died off.
Everytime I do a waterchange they are there and plentiful.

If you have any questions please ask.

[bluemonster]

I bet crack-heads would love this thread!

[reefsociety101]

SeanT

Thanks for the post, I guess I will be doing this process for all the new rock I will be getting as even new rock has all kinds of crap in it. Thanks!

[gregb]

I am a chef & I think your got rocks in your head. The only good thing out of it all would be a slight calcium rise, not worth the effort. A letter from Australia.

[pi]

What? I think you need to read the entire thread!

[SeanT]

Originally posted by gregb
I am a chef & I think your got rocks in your head. The only good thing out of it all would be a slight calcium rise, not worth the effort. A letter from Australia.
What are you on about?

[Bene']

I dunno what he is on about... I know it works so I guess he can say what he likes.
I used to do the same basic thing using sunlight and small scissors to trim the massive algae growths until I read Bomer say this was better somewhere. He was right, this way is just as effective if not a bit more so. A little slower likely, takes more water, but sure is less work overall, and the end result is a cleaner rock.

[SeanT]

Bene I think you misread.

[Bene']

Me misread? Wouldn't be the first time. I did actually read the whole thread though. Would you mind explaining? Thanks

[SeanT]

From your post it seem like you are agreeing with gregb that the cooking style I posted wouldn't work/is not needed versus just drying them out in the sun.

[Bene']

Sorry for not being clearer. What I meant was that I thought his comment was way off base. I know the "cooking" works as I have done it myself.
I went on to mention a similar process I have used. Which is cause massive dense algae growth via sunlight while the bacteria does its action sheltered from the light under the algae then trim the algae and repeat until the rock is clean and the algae stops growing.
When I do that to rocks they are in tanks not allowed to dry out in the sun. I think Bombers way is more complete though as its end result leaves all the algae dead not just really starved and partially dead.

[BlindRI]

I don't understand why you wouldn't benifit from "cooking" newly purchased live rock.

Aren't all rocks a few million years old and getting the crude out and opening up the pores (so to speak) would really help.

And isn't the same as quarantining an unknown new substance that could harm your system?

[SeanT]

I would do it to most of the "new" LR for the following reason:
Just cuz I can. :)

Seriously, I would do it because of all the die-off in the packaging, handling, shipping plus to get out whatever was already in there.

When I eventually upgrade to a larger tank, I plan on setting that tank up first.
Transporting almost all of my current LR into it (no corals or fish).
Order live rock from several different areas (Fiji, Marshall, Tonga etc.)

Take a piece or two from each to place in the tank.
I doubt it will cause a cycle.
I will do that to hopefully trasport some varieties of life.

I will cure/cook the rest.
Place it in the tank when thru.

Remember, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you. ;)

[CAreefer]

One question about "cooking" live rock. I would need to buy a couple of the rubbermaid stock tubs to rotate the rock through. Would a piece of plywood over the top be sufficient to block light? would that hinder or not allow for gas exchange? I can put a powerhead at the surface and run the airline from the venturi outside of the stock tub. Also, Having to make that much ASW would cost me a fortune in DI resin. The water leaving my RO membrane is between 10-12 ppm TDS. Would using this water to mix the ASW lengthen the cooking process?

Thanks for any help.
CAReefer

[SeanT]

Plywood would work fine.
That is what I use.
The fit, due to the warping of plywood, isn't perfectly flat so plenty of air would get in there.
Just make sure your powerhead agitates the surface of the water.
The powerhead is for aeration and not flow. No need for airliline tubing imo.

The water from ypur RO should be fine.

Just be vigilant on your water changes and swishing the first couple of weeks and then about 3 times every two weeks after that.

Swish, swish, swish. ;)

[kwjones]

Cooking and curing LR are two different things.

Curing allows the build up of bacteria to deal with the nitrogen cycle.

Cooking is the process of cleaning out all the detritus that's built up in the pores of the LR and started the cycle to begin with. Have you looked at your LFS curing tubs? There's a lot of detritus in there just rotting....OK, so "Cooking" is just an extended curing process. :)

I have 2 25 gallon Rubbermaid tubs, two Maxi-Jet 900 powerheads and a 50 watt heater. In one tub I have 12 gallons of saltwater, the powerheads, the heater and the LR covered with about 2" of water. Every Friday I mix up 12 gallons of saltater in the other tub. I will admit that I'm not using RO/DI water for cooking the rock, just well water that is loaded with silicates. I hope I don't get a big diatom bloom when I finally add it to my tank, but I can deal with that using regular water changes with RO/DI. Saturday, I dunk/swish, and hit the LR with a powerhead and transfer it to the tub of clean saltwater. I put the lid on the tub, but leave it cracked open a little bit so it gets some fresh air in it.

For the first month, the tub that the rock was in, the water was yellow with the whole bottom of the tub covered in detritus, dead macro algae and all sorts of other junk. I eventually caught a mantis shrimp in there. This last Saturday, I might have had enough detritus in the bottom of the tub to fill half to 3/4's of a shot glass. The first month, I probably could have filled up a shot glass or two. Now, the water is no longer yellow. I tested the water just for the heck of it last friday...Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 20ppm, pH 8.2, SG 1.023, temp 78. Some of the coraline has bleached, but not as much as I thought. Sponges and tunicates are growing all over it.

I'm transferring the 30lbs of LR that I've been cooking for the last two and a half months into my tank tomorrow because there's almost NO detritus in the bottom of the tub as of last night. Then I'm taking ALL the LR that's already in my tank, about 50 lbs, and cooking it for the next 3 to 4 months because it's super dirty. Since I don't have any coral in my tank, I've been leaving the lights off on my tank so I don't grow any more algae. When I do turn the lights on to feed the fish, there's not as much algae as there used to be, but it's still there.

[reefsociety101]

"OK, so "Cooking" is just an extended curing process" - Now there an easy explanation I can understand!

[SeanT]

Well...it CAN be but it isn't always the case.
You can't cure cured rock right?
But you CAN cook cured rock.

Cooking has nothing to do with the ammonia cycle.
It has to do with changing the conditions the rocks are in from an algal dominated (lit) to a bacteria dominated (dark) system.

Enabling the bacteria to get the upperhand and 'bore' into the rock and consume all the organics (Phosphorous), thus eliminating the algae's food source, thus killing the algaes off.

[reefsociety101]

Going to home depot to get some containers and I'm cooking tonight!

Quick questions for those who are expert chefs, when the live rocks are done cooking do they look sterile, dead with no life? Or are do they still look like live rock and not dead rock? Thanks!

[mps9506]

Originally posted by reefsociety101
Going to home depot to get some containers and I'm cooking tonight!

Quick questions for those who are expert chefs, when the live rocks are done cooking do they look sterile, dead with no life? Or are do they still look like live rock and not dead rock? Thanks!

It'll be purdy much white. But keep in mind it is still laden with bacterial life which is what we are aiming for. If your tank conditions are correct once it goes back in it will be covered in corralline in no time at all.

[reefsociety101]

MPS,

That's what I was afraid off, the rock just looks so natural and good, but like you said if the tank conditions are right coralline will be back in no time and hopefully I haven't missed it too much.

Would this process be beneficial regardless of tank type ie. SPS dominated, softies or LPS?

Wouldn't the process be easier if we started out with old dead white rock and add bacteria to it? Or maybe seed it? Wouldn't the result be the same?

[mps9506]

Originally posted by reefsociety101
MPS,

That's what I was afraid off, the rock just looks so natural and good, but like you said if the tank conditions are right coralline will be back in no time and hopefully I haven't missed it too much.

Would this process be beneficial regardless of tank type ie. SPS dominated, softies or LPS?

Wouldn't the process be easier if we started out with old dead white rock and add bacteria to it? Or maybe seed it? Wouldn't the result be the same?

Dead rock can still be loaded with all kind of nutrients for algae to feed off of. I figure it is easier to start with rock that already has the bacteria, then just let it gain the "upperhand" like Sean said.
although I don't see any reason you can't start with base or dead rock and do this, I would still cook it just to see what kind of crud comes out, my bet is a lot. you essentially are adding a step or two to the process by using dead rock. since you will have to seed and cycle it first, then cook it.
Once you start on your first batch and see how much crud comes out, you will be amazed.

[reefsociety101]

MPS,

Thanks! That makes sense.

[SeanT]

In actuality, Coraline coverage inhibits the critters you want on your rock a nice home.
It covers up all the...well, holes.
The rock will be pretty pale but it does cover up quickly.
Much more quickly now that you don't hae the phosphates inhibiting the growth or Coraline now.

And don't be fooled.
They are chock full of life.
Some of my rocks have been cooking since early August and are covered with pods, mysid shrimp ,sponges, worms and others.
All the good stuff. :)

And like Mike said, the beneficial bacteria are still there.

[mps9506]

Ditto on what Sean said. My rock cooked for 3 months and was teeming with mysids once I started my display tank back up. I dunno how they make it through it with no nutrient input, but I had all kinds of critters in my rock.

[npaden]

Why don't you just buy some base rock and leave it out in the driveway for a few good rain storms? Hose it down with a pressure washer? I think you would end up with rock about equally devoid of any useful life. I really think this whole bare bottom tank, cooking the live rock to make it dead rock is silly.

If anything is living through the process then you must not be "cooking" it long enough. I'm sure there are still nutrients in there somewhere!

FWIW, Nathan

[SeanT]

Hey Nathan,
If you get 'mined' rock like from reeferrocks that should be fine.
But if the rock was live and just got dried out to make base rock, the problem with that is the organics are still there and will leech out eventually.
Sean

[mps9506]

Originally posted by npaden
Why don't you just buy some base rock and leave it out in the driveway for a few good rain storms? Hose it down with a pressure washer? I think you would end up with rock about equally devoid of any useful life. I really think this whole bare bottom tank, cooking the live rock to make it dead rock is silly.

If anything is living through the process then you must not be "cooking" it long enough. I'm sure there are still nutrients in there somewhere!

FWIW, Nathan

I don't think you understand it. You are not cooking it to make it dead, you are cooking it to remove the phosphates and other nutrients that feed algae. You are ending up with live rock that is full of life, but no algae or fuel for algae.
That is the purpose of this process, not killing the live rock, it does not end up devoid of life, it ends up full of good bacteria that makes setting up your tank a pretty easy process.
Mike

[npaden]

Sarcasm off.

I understand the process, I just don't understand the reasoning behind it. This hobby is so funny to watch as the pendulum swings from one side to the other. When I got my rock it was important to get the freshest "Raw" rock with all the algae and crap still on it. I cured it in the display tank right off with a 5" DSB. It's over 3 years later and the tank looks great. No nusiance algae and I'm not worried about it.

The keys to a nice tank IMO are a really good skimmer and really good water flow. You can cook your rock for years and if you don't spend the $ on a good skimmer and have good water flow you are going to end up with problems down the road.

FWIW, Nathan

[SeanT]

Nathan, I completely understand where you are coming from.
I have followed several different ways myself.

However, I feel that cooking rock, especially rock that has been in our systems for awhile, isn't a fad or better yet, isn't a method of reekeeping.

Think of it along the same lines as doing water changes.
We all know that water changing is not mandatory with any regularity.
But few will argue the case that it doesn't help and I don't know of any who will try to argue it is bad (there may be some who will :twitch: , I just don't know them).
Regardless of the 'system' one employs, water changes are a good thing.

Now think of algae. None of us want it. Cooking rock gets rid of the organics (Phosphorous) deep in the rocks which starrves off the algae.

I have been cooking my rock since August.
It is all going back in my tank soon.
I took PUH-LENTY of before pictures.

I will post them all here. :)

[npaden]

I prefer my rock in my tank with corals growing on it.

[eastcoaster1]

This is an interesting topic. Does anyone have any information on a long-term experiment using this method? I guess I'm looking to see if the algae returned after the 'cooked' rock was back in the tank for 4-5 months.

[reefsociety101]

Originally posted by SeanT
Nathan, I completely understand where you are coming from.
I have followed several different ways myself.

However, I feel that cooking rock, especially rock that has been in our systems for awhile, isn't a fad or better yet, isn't a method of reekeeping.

Think of it along the same lines as doing water changes.
We all know that water changing is not mandatory with any regularity.
But few will argue the case that it doesn't help and I don't know of any who will try to argue it is bad (there may be some who will :twitch: , I just don't know them).
Regardless of the 'system' one employs, water changes are a good thing.

Now think of algae. None of us want it. Cooking rock gets rid of the organics (Phosphorous) deep in the rocks which starrves off the algae.


I have been cooking my rock since August.
It is all going back in my tank soon.
I took PUH-LENTY of before pictures.

I will post them all here. :)

I look forward to seeing the before and after pictures.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by npaden
I prefer my rock in my tank with corals growing on it.
As do I. Just corals though, no hair algae.

Originally posted by eastcoaster1
Does anyone have any information on a long-term experiment using this method?
I guess I'm looking to see if the algae returned after the 'cooked' rock was back in the tank for 4-5 months.
I wouldn't really call it an experiment.
But if you ask Bomber, he cooked his rocks, and I ma sure he will volunteer his insights on how well it worked.

As for me, the rock entered my cooking tubs, COVERED, with hair algae.
I began to pull it off but got frustrated with there being so much, so I decided to heck with it and was going to let it cook extra time if necessary.

There is not a single visible strand of algae left on any of the rocks, except for some minor coraline.

The putrid, rotting,...crap that came out of these rocks was phenomenal.
I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't have to do the water changes personally.

It didn't smell like skim mate.
It smelled like rotting fish.

[kwjones]

Originally posted by eastcoaster1
This is an interesting topic. Does anyone have any information on a long-term experiment using this method? I guess I'm looking to see if the algae returned after the 'cooked' rock was back in the tank for 4-5 months.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark...and of course this is all hypothetical, and depends on what you mean by long term.

If someone has algae, let's narrow it down to hair algae, regrowing on the cooked rock, I see two, possibly three, reasons for this happening.

1. An obvious reason would be that the person hasn't kept up on cleaining the tank or does not have a good way to remove detritus from the system. Algae grows where the "dirt" is. There may be inadequate flow which is allowing detritus to settle on to the rock and it's not being blown off periodicly with a power head or turkey baster.

2. It's possible that the cooking process was flawed. The rock might have been exposed to more light than it should have wich means it did not become bacterial driven and still had some algae growing on it. On the other hand, the person cooking the rock, my have rushed things and didn't let it cook as long as it should have.

3. It may be possible that the rock is land based and mined out of a limestone quarry. Land based rock seems to have much more phosphates in it than rocks that have been sitting in the ocean for a few hundred years. This doesn't seem as likely, but unless the person knows exactly where the rock was harvested from, it is possible. I can go into my LFS and see that someone has broken their tank down and the LFS is reselling the LR, but I don't know if the previous owner bought some base rock that was mined out of a limestone quarry and seeded it with LR, so it's a small possibility.

I couldn't say that any one of these situations would be the actual reason, it could be a combination of any or all since each tank is unique.

For land based rock, I don't know what the cooking duration would be or if it would even work. We'd probably have to ask Bomber. I do know that if you do a search for Bomber, you can see pictures of his tank using cooked rock, and the pictures span over the last year. He's been posting lots of new pics lately and everything is still looking great.

Kevin

[kwjones]

I don't know if you consider a year a "long term" experiment with cooked rock, but here's the link to Bomber's Tank, it's 12 pages long.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=292233

I think this link is better as far as showing a timeline of his tank with before and current pictures...
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39139

[NuclearReefs]

Originally posted by SeanT
I wouldn't really call it an experiment.
But if you ask Bomber, he cooked his rocks, and I ma sure he will volunteer his insights on how well it worked.

As for me, the rock entered my cooking tubs, COVERED, with hair algae.
I began to pull it off but got frustrated with there being so much, so I decided to heck with it and was going to let it cook extra time if necessary.

There is not a single visible strand of algae left on any of the rocks, except for some minor coraline.

The putrid, rotting,...crap that came out of these rocks was phenomenal.
I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't have to do the water changes personally.

It didn't smell like skim mate.
It smelled like rotting fish.

I had done this process along time ago in the back of the store I ran for the rock in our show tank . The water movement in the tank was almost 8 fps , so we wanted as bare a rock as we could get. New live rock was NOT the option in this case.. So we took one of our old fish holding systems (225 gallons ) and loaded it full of rock and saltwater ( First batch was actually from out system water change) I new I was shaking out detritus so I didnt mind using the other water change water.. let this run and circulate 2 weeks.The a water change,,, repeat,, etc,,, The only thing I see that I was doing different was I was dosing a gallon of kalkwasser every 3 days to help percipitate the phosphates.. which went away very fast. .. When this process was done 2 months of tank design/ plumbing tweaks we has some Nice clean rock that after was in the tank was phenomenal... very porous and pods everywhere.....Any type of Encrusting SPS Coral went NUTS leaning on this rock..... Patients was the killer though... staring and a big tank and wanting to fill er up.....

Nathan

[Travis]

Just thought I would share my experience so far with cooking my rock. I'm not following the "recipe" but using the same concept. I got my barebottom tank all set up. This tank is set up for sps so it has a very high turnover rate with a lot of randomized water movement. I am using my tank as the environment to cook my rock. My aquascaping is all on top of an eggcrate structure that keeps the rocks elevated 3" off the bottom. There are several spray bars under the eggcrate structure that fed at random intervals by a 6000 gph pump that keeps all detritus from staying on the bottom. It is all blown into the water column where it is removed by the LARGE skimmer or accumulates in the sump to be siphoned out.

I added about 230 lbs of fresh uncured live rock and around 40 lbs of live rock from my existing tank. I used a large powerhead every other day to blow off any detritus that would accumulate on the rocks. I siphoned the sump every week. The detritus production finally started slowing at about 4 weeks. It has now been 7 weeks and it is coming to a halt.

I think that "new" rock needs to be cooked just like any other rock. The "new" rock that was in my tank was spitting out large amounts of detritus for the first month and still continued to do so after that.

Just wanted to share my experience so that everyone doesn't think they HAVE to follow the recipe of swish, then move to fresh water, then swish, then move to fresh water, etc. Heck, if we are setting our systems up right the first time with big skimmers, high turnover rates, and proper means to keep detritus from accumulating in the tank, then we might as well let our systems "help" us cook our rock. However, for those who are cooking their rock from an existing setup and have to house their livestock in their display then the "recipe" would probably be the best way to go.

[krazyplace]

I've always been the one to try something new...

I have 2 tanks (reef and FO) running on a common sump and a common refuge. I'll be upgrading the reef to a larger size soon and would like to try this theory. Currently I'd describe my DSB reef as green and dirty, but with very good growth!

What do you guys think of two tanks on a common sump and refuge; one BB (reef) and a DSB (FO)? Of course if I did it, I'd cook the rock when I move it over. :)

If I understand the cooking and BB tank concept correctly this should be OK, right?

[Travis]

Having a DSB in the same system defeats the entire purpose behind a BB system. In a BB system you are removing detritus before it accumulates and starts breaking down. In a DSB system you are accumulating detritus and letting it break down in the sand bed. All of the detritus from your BB tank will collect in your DSB tank and break down in the sandbed leading to elevated pollutant levels in your tank.

[krazyplace]

I thought the BB was designed to remove the "poop" and let it settle out or be skimmed out in the refuge? Are you saying the detritus will remain in the water column and be carried over to the other tank via the refugium?

I'd like to not disturb the already established FO that has a DSB.

[Travis]

Yes, the detritus will settle out in low flow areas such as the sump, refugium, and FO tank with the DSB. The detritus will need to be cleaned from the system on a regular basis. In the FO tank you are also dealing with the wastes being produced in that tank that sill be accumulating in the DSB. From my past experience with DSB's and what I know about them is that you don't want to disturb them. By siphoning the detritus in your FO tank you will be disturbing the DSB. Actually, if you siphoned the detritus from the DSB then you will prevent the DSB from functioning properly. All in all, the detritus will be accumulating in your DSB and polluting the tank. If you really want to keep a DSB in your FO tank and a BB in your reef then I would set them up as two different systems.

[kwjones]

Since the systems are linked, when the detritus breaks down it will release everything back into both systems.

I see it like this...

You have one tank that is extremely efficient in removing detritus and keeping nutrients like phosphates from being released.

You have another tank, that is very efficient at storing nutrients like phosphates, but when it fills up can release them into the system.

You may not see any or as much detritus in the BB system, but if the system with the DSB is releasing nutrients, it's releasing it into both systems. When you link the two systems together you end up with one system with two separate observing areas, one with sand, the other without, but it's still the same system. Sure, it's split up with different ammounts of flow and filtration, but it still ends up being a unified system.

[NuclearReefs]

might wanna seperate the sump somehow and keep these tanks seperate. That would be my thinking on this . You have two different Biotope Ideas with a common body of water so they are actually sharing all the same values. So what im saying is the same that KW and travis are saying as well. I just worded mine different.... :)

[kwjones]

Right...the salinity is going to be the same in both systems, so one could safely assume that the nutrient levels will be the same in both systems...only one has sand in it and the other one doesn't.

[tanglovers]

Hi all,

Very interesting reading, I have learned volumes from you in mere minutes. I had vaguely heard of this procedure recently and am very interested in trying it. Thanks for the great directions on how to do this procedure.

I have a few questions: 1.) I recently bought new rock from a buddy getting out of the hobby (I know...what is he thinking?) and am planning on cooking this new rock with my current rock as I am planning on adding all this rock to a larger tank when it is ready, will it be okay to cook the 2 different batches of rock together?
2.) Has any body noticed any loss of the pesky aiptasia after cooking their rock? I have heard (but not yet found it on this site) that by cooking live rock you will get rid of hitchhikers, just wondering, is this true?

3.) Does any body have any suggestions on how to quarantine live sand? as I also just bought al large amt of live sand from the same buddy and am planning on adding it to my current sand to ensure I will still have a DSB in my new, larger tank.

Thanks again for all the help I have already gained from this discussion, any other help would be GREATLY appreciated

Thanks,
Wendi

[SeanT]

1. It would be fine to cook it all together.
2. I am not positive. I have Peppermint shrimp and they obliterated the aiptasia. However, due to lack of light and nutrients I would imagine it should be effective.
3. Ditch the sand. If it is really mature you are going to add a lot of organic waste to your system.
If you are set on a DSB just use a cup or so of the top most layer of the established sand bed to "seed" a new sand bed.
If the sand has just been dumped in buckets and stored...trash it, imo.

[SeanT]

1. It would be fine to cook it all together.
2. I am not positive. I have Peppermint shrimp and they obliterated the aiptasia. However, due to lack of light and nutrients I would imagine it should be effective.
3. Ditch the sand. If it is really mature you are going to add a lot of organic waste to your system.
If you are set on a DSB just use a cup or so of the top most layer of the established sand bed to "seed" a new sand bed.
If the sand has just been dumped in buckets and stored...trash it, imo.

[mps9506]

Sean covered it.
But regarding the aiptasia I would nuke as many as I could first with some kalkwasser and syringe. This is relatively easy once the rock is out of the main tank and one the larger aiptasia.
I don't know for sure if the aiptasia would survive or not.
I do know the first time I cooked my live rock I didn't do it in total darkness and I still had plenty of aiptasia on the rocks after three months. (This was before Bomber had posted anything about cooking live rock on RC). Now I'm doing it all over again to try and rid myself of some macro algae that got into my tank as well, but I'm doing it right this time.
Mike

[ac green]

Seant T,

2 Questions re: cooking the live rock

1) When swishing the LR around in the 3 buckets, do you use fresh water or saltwater?

2) Do you add a heater to the holding tub while cooking the LR?

TIA
jussmeac

[SeanT]

Hi,
Always use saltawter. Much of the beneficial life will remain thru the cooking process such as sponges, pods, etc.
Freshwater would kill off a lot of it.

If it is cold then use a heater. :)

Sean

[techdef]

Hey, looking at moving a bunch of 4 year old rock to a new tank & noticed this thread. I live right on the beach south of LA. What do you y'all think about using real free ocean water from my back yard for this 'cooking' process? I wouldnt necessarily trust it in my tanks, but certainly for the swishing steps it might be OK?? Perhaps the cooking phase as well?

-jamie

[SeanT]

If it were clean I don't think there would be a problem.
If it were.
I don't know the level of pollution in that water or what pollution it is.

[techdef]

hmm, according to the california coastal commision website Sunset Beach is the #1 cleanest beach water in southern ca & is currently showing very low bacteria counts. I'm not sure that answers any of 'our' questions though!

[JB NY]

Originally posted by npaden
Sarcasm off.

I understand the process, I just don't understand the reasoning behind it. This hobby is so funny to watch as the pendulum swings from one side to the other. When I got my rock it was important to get the freshest "Raw" rock with all the algae and crap still on it. I cured it in the display tank right off with a 5" DSB. It's over 3 years later and the tank looks great. No nusiance algae and I'm not worried about it.

The keys to a nice tank IMO are a really good skimmer and really good water flow. You can cook your rock for years and if you don't spend the $ on a good skimmer and have good water flow you are going to end up with problems down the road.

FWIW, Nathan

Quoted for truth.

Same thing in my tank.

[Baalz]

cooking rocks? Im with nathan on this.

[SeanT]

If what you are doing works by all means kep doing it.
I took the walk down the rock cooking road solely because of the losing Bryopsis battle I was fighting.

I stand behind its merits 100% but I am not saying everyone should do it. It worked for me, it will work for everyone, but it would be a big PITA if not needed.

[spongebillyboi]

if you want to get any unwanted critters out... just put the rock in a container and adjust the salinity to something above .030.. any bristleworms & such will scury out in a stampede(10-15min let sit tho).. then rinse the rock in RO/DI also works wonder for getting rid of aptasia.. but if dealing with aptasia.. i left mine in 30min just to be sure. oh and BTW.. i used table salt just to save on my reef crystals. :) worked like magic!

[MiddletonMark]

I don't think people are talking about killing a critter at all here - in fact this method should preserve most if not all.

I thought the purpose of `cooking' was to help remove all the excess detritus and gunk in the pores of the rock that would help fuel algae growth on the rock.

As for worms, pods, featherdusters, etc etc ... dark should not harm these guys significantly, nor would driving the system bacterially ... it should just affect detritus :)

[Travis]

I agree, that sounds more like "sterilizing" the rock. If you want sterile rock you can just go with base rock. That would be a good method to use if you want to get rid of a pest and you know what rock it is hiding in but I wouldn't want to do that to all of my rock.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
I thought the purpose of `cooking' was to help remove all the excess detritus and gunk in the pores of the rock that would help fuel algae growth on the rock.

Correctamundo, and doing so while keeping a lot of the 'beneficial' critters alive.

[techdef]

Hey, looking at trying this out - what are thoughts on cooking temps? It came up here already but w/out numbers. Would 60 degree water be a problem?

[MiddletonMark]

As stated above - you want things the same temp as your reef tank, as you want to preserve all the critters, worms, bugs, ... LIFE on it - everything but the algae IMO.

Thus if you drop the temp to 60, you'll likely lose all that life.

At least in my book, that's not what I'm trying to do here. My `cooking' tank seems to have a lot of `small life' in it.

[techdef]

and you call yourself a troublemaker! thanks

[MiddletonMark]

Evidently you missed all those other threads :lmao:

[NuclearReefs]

everytime I have cooked rock I have done it at about 2 degrees over what I keep a dislplay at,, this may be something in my head,, but since their is no light , the higher temp speeds metabolism up a little to help sustain pods, bacteria etc,,,,

Nathan

[SeanT]

I don't know about "in" your head, but "on" your head appears to be a lime peel. :)

[NuclearReefs]

sean,,,, yer looking kinda flat yourself,,:) :fun5::crazy1::fun5:


Nathan

[MiddletonMark]

That temp. slightly raised is an interesting idea to think about :)

[john the hermit]

I've been watching this thread with interest as I've had a problem with a very tough turf algae. I also decided that I had inadequate flow in the tank which was probably part of the problem. I've taken steps to improve flow by installing steam pumps and a controler and also decided to cook my LR as its about 5 years old and would benefit from the process.
So far it's been cooking for about three weeks, and I'm very impressed with the amount of " mud " thats come out when rinseing so I think it's worthwhile continueing.
I'm hopeing to finish the process dureing the Christmas break as I'll have time then to landscape the tank.
Can anyone give me an idea how long it takes to kill this turf agae by cooking, as so far, although it's stopped growing any bigger, it aint dead yet !
I'll be grateful for any advice.
cheers
John:thumbsup:

[SeanT]

It can take up to 8 weeks, maybe even a little longer determined by how much crap is in the rocks.

The best way to expedite it is through regular water changes (I recommend 2-3 a week for the first 2-3 weeks).
But just as important (maybe more so) as the waterchanges is the rinsing technique.
Set up several buckets, rinse the rock in the tub it is cooking in, the swish and rinse vigorously in through a series of three buckets.
Then, in a holding tub.
Repeat for each rock (but once a bucket is funky and filled with brown water it is time to use new water).
Empty cooking tub water, rinse it out with garden hose, fill with clean water.
Repeat the rock swishing process in reverse and add to cooking tub.

A good many of my rocks had red, short haired, truf algae on them.
All gone now. :)

Patience and diligence is key.

[john the hermit]

Thats exactly what I've been doing Sean, don't those rinses make your fingers sore!
By the time I'm finished cooking about 10 weeks should have passed and hopefully the turf algae with it . I'll let you know if it's still there at the end.
regards
John

[v10king]

I bought some rock for my new nano and I am amazed at how much crap comes out of the rocks everytime I change the water out. Im only 1.5 weeks into the cooking process.

[thrlride]

Question about this....
I've got about 40-50 pounds of LR sitting in a tub in my garage. All I have in the tub besides the rock is a heater and a 500 gph pump. No lights and the tub is always covered. I'm sure there is a ton of detrius in the bottom. How can I start this procedure to this rock?

Why not just rinse in one bucket then to another until you clean out the main tub or does it release that much gunk? My rock has been in this tub for almost 4 months, is it safe to assume that the algal cycle is gone and just bacterial now?

[SeanT]

thrlride,
A couple of water changes and you should be done.
The swishing helps to pull out gunk deep inside the rock and allows the bacteria to get deeper still.

The water changes are to eliminate and P in the water column and make the bacteria concentrate on the junk IN the rock.

[v10king]

In my experience, I have changed the water out every 3-4 days for the past 3 weeks. The rock is seriously dirty. I swish the rock in two buckets of clean water and then put back in new water for 3-4 days. The buckets I swish the rock in are so freakin dirty its unbelievable. When I put it back in the clean water and let sit, in 4 days that water is nasty again. I will keep doing it until the water is clean after a week.

[storrsms]

what exactly is ASW? I'm trying to keep up with this thread, but this is confusing me to no end. (i assume the SW stands for Salt Water, but what does the A stand for?)

Thanks,
Mark

[Nanook]

ASW=Artificial Salt Water

[Aescleah]

o no hobbist are now getting so extreme we are roasting these intellent and feeling beings alive BETTER CALL PETA!!!!

would you do that to your puppy or kitten

Ashley

[SeanT]

Someone didn't read the thread. :rolleyes:

[NuclearReefs]

Wouldnt be the first time Sean...LOL


:)

Nathan

[purplehaze]

I also cooked 40lbs of new live rock. After 2-3 months I had almost a DSB in the cooking container, so much stuff came out of the rocks :lol:

[mps9506]

Originally posted by purplehaze
I also cooked 40lbs of new live rock. After 2-3 months I had almost a DSB in the cooking container, so much stuff came out of the rocks :lol:

Purplehaze,
You want to make sure to get that stuff out on a weekly basis at least while cooking your rock. When you leave it in the tub, it just sits and releases the phosphates right back into the water column. You want to physically remove all the detrius and stuff along with it, so it isn't realsed back into the water column. This way you are removing an easy source of food for the bacteria, and making them clean that rock up.
Mike

[purplehaze]

Originally posted by mps9506
Purplehaze,
You want to make sure to get that stuff out on a weekly basis at least while cooking your rock. When you leave it in the tub, it just sits and releases the phosphates right back into the water column. You want to physically remove all the detrius and stuff along with it, so it isn't realsed back into the water column. This way you are removing an easy source of food for the bacteria, and making them clean that rock up.
Mike

Yea, you are right...I've cleaned the tub and the rock is now in it's new tank, let's see what happens.:)

[mps9506]

Purplehaze,
Just noticed you are a biologist, surf and breed ornamentals...
Where are you from? We have a few people like that around here at the university... I only enjoy the surfing and biology part.
Mike

[purplehaze]

mps9506, YGPM

[SeanT]

Not from Wilmington are you?

[purplehaze]

Originally posted by SeanT
Not from Wilmington are you?

No, I live in Brasil!

[Falko]

I am new to this all...
( So forgive me if I suggest something stupid )
But in a bit unrelated topic.
I Have an crazy idea, and I would like to have your opinion on it please.

Would you say taking live rock, cleaning the surface entirely of anything living, Rinse them, Place them in a bucket full of salt water in complete darkness with Powerful Skimmers running 24/7 for lets say 2 months would do a good job at cleaning them before adding them to your tank?

Please don't bite me It's just a freak Question, Not planning to do it at all. Just queries.

[SeanT]

Hey Falko,
That is pretty much "cooking" the rock. :)
All you need to add to that is waterchanges.

[Manon]

This rock cleaning process seems like a lot of work to say the least!! I use my powerhead probably about once a month and move it around the rocks to blow the detritus out while the system is running so that the junk gets filtered while in suspension instead of settling down on the sand. I don't do the whole tank at onces b/c the water gets pretty dirty for while. I did half the tank last night and about one hour later the water was clean again.

This is not as through as the process of cooking put for some of us with a little less enthousiam I think its very helpful!!

Mia

[arconom]

Well after carefully reading, Bomber and other reefers thoughts and talking to SeanT. I feel I understand the basis of "Cooking Liverock"

Rather then continuing PMing and talking on the phone with SeanT, I decided to ask my questions here. So others debating on the "Cooking Liverock" process might get there questions answered as well.


I am in the process of getting ready to cook my liverock. The main issue ATM is Room for water. Not having access to NSW it becomes a issue to some degree.

I have a 75 gal tank with 20gal refug connected.

So I am making enough water for my first step.

First I have a 55 gal tank filled with RO/DI water. With a small heater and a small PH. This is where I will be processing my rock.

I have another tub from walmart that will hold about 30-35 gal.

I have 2 5 gal jugs that I will fill with ready made water with salt.
WHY I had to remember once I take out the rock from my tank, it will be low from displacement. So my 2 5 gal jugs will handle that.

I also will be buying another container maybe a garbage container. To hold more water. I plan on having enough water to fill backup the 55 and have more for the cleaning process. The buckets for each process will be filled using the one 30-35 container instead of having alot of bucket around.

For me the water is the main issue.

So first question is-- instead of emptying dirty water out for the first stage,or 1st 2nd 3rd bucket can I just filter this water with a sock by tranfering it from one container to another?

This would save me alot of water in the long run.

Also, even if I dont filter the water after 2 days the water in 1,2,3 buckets will be clean from the detritus settling on the bottom.

After all the the final bucket is what counts. Thats the one you really don't want to see and dirt in.

Also I don't have my RO/DI unit hard plumbed so I have to watch it. I start filling from 3:00pm to 10:00pm at night.

So far it took 2 days to fill my 55 gal. As of now my 30-35 container is filling Plus I want more. So now-- This brings me to 3-4 days. Possibly 5 days. So instead of doing this realistically in 2-3 day intervals. I'm looking at 5-6 days between cleanings. Is this a major issue?

Water is as you said a issue of the whole project. I will do it. But some changes had to be made.

I guess for most it might not be to bad but I have a small "operation" here.

Comments please.

[SeanT]

Hi Erik,
First, the 55 full of RODI water is saltwater right?
I would not recommend trying to filter the water through a sock back into the holding tank.
Although it will get a lot of the detrius, it will not get all the Phosphorous (or any for that matter). As it is in the water itself.

Although, if you would like to do it this way for the first few weeks I guess it wouldn't hurt too much.
Just know that you will have to do many 100% water changes as well.

Your storing the rinse bucket water is a good idea in theory.
However, it also depends on how long you plan on leaving it there.
It can get anoxic without circulation which would be bad for the life on your rocks.

Sean

[arconom]

Exactly, I plan on only doing this with the rinse water. Also all the water is SW.

This will help me keep up with fresh RO/DI production. The rinse water buckets will be redone every week.

[arconom]

Also I have decided to go BB. A question I have is what Diameter PVC should I use for my rack? Also should I use end caps on the ends? or leave them open?

[SeanT]

I used 3/4" schedule 80. 1/2" would work just as well.
I left the ends open my self...no real reason except I thought the water may go anoxic and could cause problems down the road.
I have no idea if that is possible.
Sean

[Broodingwolf]

I'd love to see the pics you mentioned SeanT

[SeanT]

What would you like to see pics of? :)

[Broodingwolf]

before and after shots of the rock?

:D

[carsonc]

This all sounds like a good idea, however I have 2 questions:
How old would a tank be before the rocks need to be "cooked", would it be years of operation or just the onset of excess alga.

How do you get all the critters, corals zoos and other inhabitants of the tank to let go of the rock they have been growing on.

[arconom]

To my reading knowledge this process can be done at any point. I would loved to have done it at the curing stage.

So basically you can do this process and have your rock cured,and cooked if you just bought your rock. Thats the best scenario.

About the critters and such, you will have your cooking tub completly dark. There should be no exposure to light. This will make living for some animals not possible. Pods and such will survive given correct temp and other variables.


Also all Decoritive corals such as coral zoos, and others as well you should get off before cooking.

Please dont quote me but this from my reading and understanding.

[scubadude]

LMAO....If you guys talk me into this my wife will probably divorce me if I put a bunch of LR in the oven! Ok...u guys that have done this are obviously either single or have really cool wifes!

[Project Reef]

Sean, I might cook my rock. This red turf algea is really starting to bug me. Anyhow, if I do decide to I will modify the method.

1) Take rock out, put it outside on the cement.
2) High pressure hose and blast and scrub the rock.
3) Put rock in tub with a powerhead and new SW under total darkness.
4) Once or twice a week, take rock out, put outside on the cement and blast it with a high pressure hose.
5) Put rock in tub with new SW.
6) Repeat step 4 and 5 for about 6-8 weeks.

How's that sound?

[john the hermit]

Originally posted by Project Reef
Sean, I might cook my rock. This red turf algea is really starting to bug me. Anyhow, if I do decide to I will modify the method.

1) Take rock out, put it outside on the cement.
2) High pressure hose and blast and scrub the rock.
3) Put rock in tub with a powerhead and new SW under total darkness.
4) Once or twice a week, take rock out, put outside on the cement and blast it with a high pressure hose.
5) Put rock in tub with new SW.
6) Repeat step 4 and 5 for about 6-8 weeks.

How's that sound?

now you've got DEAD rock
doh!!!
John

[SeanT]

Sounds unnecessary Ali. :)
The high pressure blasting anway.

In 6-8 weeks your rock will be smooth as a baby's butt so long as you do the water changes and swishing.

Truly a minimal effort/maximum reward situation.
Time is all it takes for the most part.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by scubadude
LMAO....If you guys talk me into this my wife will probably divorce me if I put a bunch of LR in the oven! Ok...u guys that have done this are obviously either single or have really cool wifes!

ROOCCKKYYY!

Read the first page my man.

NO OVENS NO HEAT!
Just water and darkness. :)

[SeanT]

Originally posted by john the hermit
now you've got DEAD rock
doh!!!
John

What do you mean 'dead' John.
My rock is teeming with life, pods, sponges, worms.
Sean

[Project Reef]

Originally posted by john the hermit
now you've got DEAD rock
doh!!!
John

Why would it be dead rock? The bacteria will still be there. Being hosed down by FW for a couple minutes won't kill the bacteria. Consider it a high-powered freshwater dip.

[SeanT]

Broodingwolf,
I will post some before and after pics here shortly.
I will show some close ups of the red turf I used to have and the Bryopsis and the Valonia and then pics of the "now" :)
Sean

[Project Reef]

Originally posted by SeanT
I will post some before and after pics here shortly.
Sean

Sweet. Looks like I found this thread at the right time. :D

[john the hermit]

Originally posted by Project Reef
Why would it be dead rock? The bacteria will still be there. Being hosed down by FW for a couple minutes won't kill the bacteria. Consider it a high-powered freshwater dip.

I think a high pressure hose with tap water, (chlorine etc) is a lot more aggresive than a fresh water dip with RO water. It'll likely wipe out all life on the surface of the rock and it aint necessary.
don't do it man, the normal way will be fine.
good luck
John

[Project Reef]

Originally posted by john the hermit
I think a high pressure hose with tap water, (chlorine etc) is a lot more aggresive than a fresh water dip with RO water. It'll likely wipe out all life on the surface of the rock and it aint necessary.
don't do it man, the normal way will be fine.
good luck
John

I agree that it'll kill the life on the surface. However the only thing I am worried about is the bacteria inside the rock. I'd do it the normal way, but the normal way involves a whole lotta buckets, SW and swishing. :D

[Project Reef]

Sean, it's been almost 2 hours! Where the pics?

[Project Reef]

John, I PM'd Bomber about it as well so I'll keep you posted on what he says.

[john the hermit]

Originally posted by Project Reef
I agree that it'll kill the life on the surface. However the only thing I am worried about is the bacteria inside the rock. I'd do it the normal way, but the normal way involves a whole lotta buckets, SW and swishing. :D

I agree it's a lot of work, I'm concerned that your way will kill more than surface bacteria, sponges worms etc, but will also get in the rock and do more damage.
LR has more than just bacteria!
It is a lot of work as I'm finding out, frankly it's a pain in the arse keep having to mix all that water and rinse and swish, but the amount of crud that's come out convinces me that it's doing good.
You can't rush it.
good luck with whatever you decide.
John

[Project Reef]

Thanks John,

Here's Bombers reply:

Ali

Don't wash your rocks with Fresh Water! You just going to set the whole process of curing/cooking the rocks back and make it take a whole lot longer. Trust the bacteria, they are better at it than you are.

[SeanT]

Hey Ali,
I am at work, one of my managers called in. :rolleyes:
They will be up tonight I promise.
Sean

[john the hermit]

Originally posted by SeanT
What do you mean 'dead' John.
My rock is teeming with life, pods, sponges, worms.
Sean

I'm sure it is mate, as is mine. My remarks were not directed at you.
Sorry for any confusion:reading:
thats me and the zeovit guide
all the best
John

[arconom]

Well I started this morning at 9am. Now at 4:19pm I'm almost all cleaned up from the first Cleaning of all my Liverock.


The dirtiest of rock was at the bottom of the tank so I used my main tank itself towards the end to shake the bulk of debris off the rock.

I used 3 buckets. I had to throw away the water in the 1st bucket 3 times total. The 2nd 2 times. Last once.

If I had used 6 buckets it would have went quicker.

Also I have to say always Have much more water on hand then you think you will need. Under the 3 buckets I used cheap black plastic lining so my rug would'nt get wet.

Also in the next 2 days I will put the rock in a plastic tub while my 55 gal tank fills with New water. Like everyone, your base rock is Much bigger. When you work backwards in the process your small rock ends up on the bottom and large pieces on top. Not a big deal but not really safe IMO. For rock slides and such.

Also Sean what was that tool called that you used for the Correline algae scraping?

At the moment I have one small power head on the top of the tank you can see the water ripples. Is this good enough? or do I need to introduce more Oxygen Via Skimmer?

I have to say my sand was beyond dirty. I mean awful. I only have atm 2 1/2 of sand. I will be taking it out slowly. IMO after reading, I have realized that we do indeed have to make a environment similar to nature but when your dealing with a Glass Box filled with water ''Your fish tank" having sand in any amount attempting to mimic and function as nature I think its best left to nature itself.

[mps9506]

Just for kicks I'm posting a pic I took one month ago.My rock had been "cooking" for two weeks, the second week I never got around to doing a water change at all. I was changing water every second or third day, then I got waaay to busy.
So this was about 9 days worth of crud built up on the bottom of my tub, this doesn't include all the stuff that came off when I was swishing my rocks around. This is from I guesstimate 30lbs of rock that I've been in various tanks of mine for three years now.
It is gross stuff, up there with my euroreef skimmate.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/photopost/data/519/379cookedrock2.jpg

[SeanT]

As promised. :)

Rock "cooking" pictures. (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3908877#post3908877)

[SeanT]

Originally posted by arconom
Also Sean what was that tool called that you used for the Correline algae scraping?
Hi Erik,
Just an ordinary, everyday plastic paint scraper with a razor blade in it.
Glad everything is going well. :)

[arconom]

Also I have only one small PH in the corner of the Cooking Tank. Do you think this is enough? Or do I have to oxygenate the water more Via Skimmer?

I see slight turblance on the surface but I don't think this is putting oxygen into the water.

[SeanT]

It will be fine.
If you would like add another PH but a skimmer is completely unneeded.

[Bomber]

And now you know that even though you couldn't test your water and show phosphates, it was still all that crud in the rocks feeding that hair algae. ;)

[SeanT]

My rocks are nicer than the reefs now. ;)
See those pics Bomber?

[reef10]

I like the new fad but I have some questions:

I will be upgrading to bigger and better someday and would like not to continue the battle on a larger scale. I am planing a quarentine process for all current inhabients rock and coral (not the fish though). How important is the darkness? If I setup a tank BB with no fish (i.e. no food) siphoning out detris but provide light should cooking still work. What would others do with an algae covered rock with coral? Thanks to overzelous fraging over the years most of my rock has something on it from zoanthus to SPS. (Note: I think my foe is bryopsis because I can't pull it off cleanly)

[SeanT]

Originally posted by reef10
I like the new fad
Whooaaa not a fad, science. ;)

Originally posted by reef10
How important is the darkness?
Very. It changes the situation from an algal based system to a bacterail based system.
Originally posted by reef10
If I setup a tank BB with no fish (i.e. no food) siphoning out detris but provide light should cooking still work.
Your rocks will leech out crud over time and increase your workload of siphoning and such.
How long? I don't have a specific time frame but a lot longer than cooking.
Plus the algaes currently inhabiting your rock will still be there.

Originally posted by reef10
What would others do with an algae covered rock with coral?
Frag off what you can and cook the rest is what I did.]

[reef10]

Fragging off everything is hopefully not necessary. Some have mentioned constantly cooking rock and trading out a portion in the main tank every few months. That would leave nice looking base rock with algae covered rock for the coral. The other option would have a clean tank of perpetual frags.

Heres a question for SeanT:
After cooking your rock did you put it back in with the remaining algae covered rock? Did the algae just not grow on the cooked rock even though algae is clearly in the system? Did you cook it in such a way to keep the cooked seperate from the algae? If everything remains seperate then the reason for no more algae may be that the algae was killed by the cooking process and is just not in the system anymore.


Fine science....
I am going to run a test by cooking my rock in the dark with a plenum based DSB using miricle mud while using constant plenum wasting. BUT what should I use as the control group??:confused: :lol:

[SeanT]

Originally posted by reef10
Fragging off everything is hopefully not necessary. Some have mentioned constantly cooking rock and trading out a portion in the main tank every few months. That would leave nice looking base rock with algae covered rock for the coral. The other option would have a clean tank of perpetual frags.
That is way too much work.
If you "cook" your rock thoroughly, have a proper clean up crew, maintain good husbandry practices, e.g proper skimmer, siphoning of detrius, water changes, filter socks changed regularly etc. then why "cook" rock again?
If many years down the road you need to do it again then so be it.
Originally posted by reef10

Heres a question for SeanT:
After cooking your rock did you put it back in with the remaining algae covered rock?

reef10,
I took out 1/3rd of my rock and a week or two later another 1/3rd then a week or two after that the last 1/3rd.

My tank was rockless for almost 4 months.
All my corals were on PVC racks.

The PVC started getting a light brown film algae on it.
Then, without rocks, I noticed that I had only 7 snails in my enitire system of 450 gallons.

I ordered some Astreas and Ceriths and all film algaes were gone in a week and have never returned.

Originally posted by reef10
Did the algae just not grow on the cooked rock even though algae is clearly in the system?
The algae is in the system only because the Phosphorous is in the system to feed it. Get rid of the 'fuel' and the 'fire' dies off.

[arconom]

Well tomorrow is my first cleaning,besides the initial first time.

Main water Bins

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/425632004_1214Image0004-med.JPG


Cook tank




http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/425632004_1214Image0005.JPG

[arconom]

Lets not forget the swishdunkers :)


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/425632004_1214Image0009.JPG

[SeanT]

Looking good. :)
Be sure to lay down a lot of towels or plastic if you are swishing inside.
Try as you might, it will get a bit wet. :D

[arconom]

Well it took from 4:00pm -6:30 to finish the process.

A few questions

First, the rock was out of the water for about 2 hours,basically the whole time. Is this a big concern?

Also worst case scenerio what if I did this procedure once a week? I realize it might take longer.

Reason for this is I have to hop around on one foot. I'm still recovering from a ATV accident. So a small task can take me much longer.


I think when this is over I will have used 3-5 160 gal IO salt.

I have used already 1/2 of a 160 gal bucket of salt this covered the 1st major cleaning and 2nd Follow up cleaning.

[SeanT]

Time out of the water won't be a concern at all.
Especially by the time you are done cooking.

It took 2-1/2 hours to take it all out and everything?
Or to just swish it and do the water change in your rock cooking tubs?

[arconom]

The first Major one was the on 12/11/2004 the one I talked about in the post. That was the FIRST to do everything that included taking the rock out for the first time. That one was 7-8 hours.

This time was just one of the scheduled swish,dunk change main holding tank water.


2 1/2 Hours for the swish and the water change in my rock cooking tubs.

The funny part is this time was about as dirty as the first time. But this is the bacteria going to work.

It mainly looked like mps9506 post of the pic.

[Hef]

Sean, you mention in the beginning of this, that if you have filtered NSW it's great. Well what about unfiltered NSW. I might be able to swing that.

[SeanT]

I would say it would be determined on your location and pollution level.
If you have a University on the coast there it is possible they have that information.

[reef90]

Seant,
thanks for all of your tips and advice. I removed all of my rock about 8 wks ago from my 90, and my 1/2" cutting board arrived today.
Is it recomended to wash/soak the board to remove the plastisizers first or can it be put straight in?
When cutting the board should it be a tight fit or have some space all the way around? I thought I had seen somewhere to leave a space to prevent warping.
Thanks again, Mark

[arconom]

reef90 Do you have a inside overflow? or do you have drilled Bulkheads?

[arconom]

I plan on ordering my starboard soon and wanted to know what measurments you came up with. Since I have a 75 the dimensions should be the same. I also was wondering on the amount of gap between glass and board.

[reef90]

Originally posted by arconom
reef90 Do you have a inside overflow? or do you have drilled Bulkheads?

I have an inside corner overflow, however I ordered the 18"x48" white board and plan to cut it to size. You can have it pre-cut at the factory though

[arconom]

Ok I guess I should do the same and cut to size to be safe.

Also SeanT what do you think would happen if I do this once a week. It's hard with me hopping around. I realize it will take longer. But is that the only risk?

Also I think I'm going to buy the big 55 Gal Rubbermaids from HD there like 52.00$. I can't get all the destritus off the bottom of my Fish tank that I'm using for my cooking, unless I tip it. I can see an accident happening.

[reef10]

When is the cooking process done? Do you continue the process until no more junk comes out of the rock? SeanT: Did you notice a decrease in detrius production over time and did it drop to zero production?

[SeanT]

reef10,
You DEFINITELY notice a decrease.
However that decrease can take over a month.
When it is nothing more than little rock chunks you are done.
Sean

[tor101898]

i took 5 pieces of rock out and started this process 2 weeks ago.yesterday when i went to change the water i noticed a large amount of peanut worms over the rocks can anyone tell me if this is normal.

[SeanT]

It is if you have peanut worms. :)

[tor101898]

thanks for the reply seant

[SeanT]

You're welcome. :)

[arconom]

I'm behind schedule. I'm still making water :(

[SeanT]

No worries.
Keep chugging along, this is a marathon not a sprint.
It will all payoff in the end ten-fold. :)

[arconom]

Main Rock Cooking Tank With black pastic off for another session of cleaning


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/42563DSCF0037.JPG

A substrate of detritus
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/42563DSCF0039.JPG

A substrate of detritus
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/42563DSCF0041.JPG

[arconom]

DEC 11.04 Rock Cooking First Step
DEC 15.04 Follow up
DEC 26.04 Follow up
JAN 02.05 Follow up
JAN 09.05 Follow up



This is my schedule I have been doing. I do the follow ups on Sundays.

The question I see people asking is "how long does it take"?

Well I can tell you that I have been doing this for awhile as you can see. I am still not even close to being done. I'm still getting sand on the bottoms of the containers.

Also there is still valonia and red turf algea to some degree on my rocks. I can also say I still see aiptasia. So I know I'm looking at late February, early March. I see no letting up ATM at seeing less destritus. I still am amazed at how much stuff keeps coming out.

[Ken Sellick]

Thanks for sharing this valuable info. There is so much to learn about in this hobby / obsession

[SeanT]

Erik,
Looking good.
Remember to swish-swish-dunk-dunk-dunk-swishie-swish. LOL
Dunking really helps to loosen it in the pores for the swishing to remove.
Sean

[banzai75x]

Question: If I cook all my rocks that are in my display tank, I will still have corals and fish in there. Since there is no biological filtration (since rocks are cooking), won't my display tank water go to crap?

[SeanT]

The bacteria are still in there providing biological filtration.
Your skimmer is still working as well, run it wet.

More frequent, smaller water changes help as well.

[mps9506]

Originally posted by banzai75x
Question: If I cook all my rocks that are in my display tank, I will still have corals and fish in there. Since there is no biological filtration (since rocks are cooking), won't my display tank water go to crap?

I'll testify that a tank can actually look a lot healthier and cleaner with no live rock, heavy duty wet running skimmer and water changes, than it did with a bunch of nutrient laden live rock in it...

Just remember to keep up with the tank maintence, pretty much the same as you would do with a bare bottom tank. Make sure you don't have stuff rotting away in it.

[arconom]

Well here is my schedule as of today. I have a few questions for Bomber and Sean

DEC 11.04 Rock Cooking First Step
DEC 15.04 Follow up
DEC 26.04 Follow up
JAN 02.05 Follow up
JAN 09.05 Follow up
JAN 17.05 Follow up
Jan 27.05 Follow up

The amount of little sponges is incredible.

I still have valonia on some of the Rock,also I have some of that Red algea still left on some as well. Is the surface Algea the last to go during this whole process??

I also have some zoomat polyps still on a rock should I file them off next time? I really don't want them on my rock. Also I still have aiptasia it does seem to be getting less and less.

[SeanT]

Erik,
Pull the valonia off with tweasers.
It hastens their demise.
In fact, any algae you pnysically remove and take out of the equation is less time/work that needs to be done.

I did have a few marbled mushrooms survive on a single piece of rock.
Amazing really.
If you want to eradicate the polyps take 'em off for sure. :)
Sean

[Big E]

I amazed at the amount of detritus in those pics......unreal! I've been cooking my rock since October. I slowly took out the rocks that were infested the worst with hair algae. I have maybe 5-6 pieces that I haven't taken out & the algae on them has disappered.

I never get more than a couple piles of detritus here or there in my cooking bin & was a bit lax on the water changes the first month.

Anways, my tank looks better now than it has in over a year. Really amazing the difference plus a handful of my corals have colored up nicely. I would say in another month or so this tank will be pristine.

Thanks Sean for all your posts & directions.

[Cosmo^Kramer]

Sean my nano thanks you and so do i :)
I started my nano a little differently,i used 1 nice clean rock from my sump and the rest base rock.I cooked all the rock about 11 pounds.I was shocked to see the crud that came off the base rock.I put about 4 pounds in the tank so far,the rest is still cooking.So far so good with the nano,not a speck of alge and i've only cleaned the glass once in the past 2 weeks.My 65 is next,thats gonna be a big job.I have no hair alge but i have macro and can't seem to get it under control.If it wern't for you and Bomber i'd be lost..Thanks man

[astronaut]

Originally posted by BlindRI

Aren't all rocks a few million years old and getting the crude out and opening up the pores (so to speak) would really help.


umm, isnt that only if your rock is taken off the reef? walt smith and TBS dumped rock in the ocean and let it become live didn't they? im almost positive they dont take their rock right off of natural reefs.

[dkh0331]

Originally posted by SeanT
It will be fine.
If you would like add another PH but a skimmer is completely unneeded.

I will start cooking my rocks next week.

If I have an spare skimmer, does it hurt the process or just not add any value at all?

David

[MiddletonMark]

David - IMO, a skimmer would not hurt the process - probably just help it. Or so my take is.

[dkh0331]

Thanks Mark. My initial tought is that it would help the process somewhat, but wanted to make sure that it didn't hurt the process.

David

[NwG]

I use my new asm g6 in my cooking setup.. I set up my basement sump and have yet to hook it into my display.. So I have a great big skimmer doing nothing.. Now that I am cookin rock why not use the skimmer? This gives me a chance to fine tune the skimmer and IMO quickened up the cooking process... I get 4g of dark skimate a day out of a 160g cooking system.. Haveing the skimmer in there lets me swish and dunk the rocks, in the tank every day..(and sometimes 2 or 3 times a daY) I still do the normal process that sean T says to do, just added swishing with the skimmers help... I have some pics of my set-up here http://www.w-a-w.net/gallery/Reef-shots/

[stan zemanek]

i'm corn fused! i have a 250 with aprrox 300 pounds of live rock, over the past month i have developed a type of clear slime algae on the rock. if i take say a third of the rock out and cook it for a few months, when i put rock back in tank with orginal rock would'nt the slime algae just leach back onto cooked rock i would think i would have to take all the rock out at once:

[arconom]

Do it in 1/2s 150# and 150#. Or all at once. This way you won't run into this problem.

Even then it won't be a problem. But I think you should do it all at once and be done with it. It will be more work in the long run to do it in 1/2s.

Your looking at a GUESS of 2-3 months more if need be. If you do it in 1/2s your looking at 2-3 months 2 times for a total of 6 months of your tank not looking good.

Here is my actual schedule as of this week.

DEC 11.04 Rock Cooking First Step
DEC 15.04 Follow up
DEC 26.04 Follow up
JAN 02.05 Follow up
JAN 09.05 Follow up
JAN 17.05 Follow up
Jan 27.05 Follow up
Feb 19.05 Follow up

I have a feeling it will be late March when I'm done. How do I know this? Well I am still getting tons of destritus coming off my rocks. I have to say reading all of Bomber's threads and getting the chance to speak with SeanT on the phone helped alot!!

If you have questions and would like to call me send me a PM and you can call me. I am not a "Leading Authority" per say but I sure can help you :)

[reefkeeper59]

Here's one for ya. I actually do cook my rock. I have 500 lbs of live rock and could care less about new rock having life on it. If I find a good buy on LR ($2.50 lb, I buy wholesale in florida), I will bring it home and stick it in the microwave for about 5 minutes. this kills any populations of bad worms, crabs, shrimp or any other critter I don't want. I then soak in saltwater for couple weeks shaking debree off. Then I put it in the tank, 10/20 lbs at a time over several weeks. Not sure what it does for algea. But I don't have any.

It seems to have some coraline algea that bounces back in a couple months.

[NwG]

Reefkeeper why not just seed some base rock? I think it would be cheaper in the long run...

[reefkeeper59]

Seems most of the LFS stores want $3 lb for that. May as well get a chance at some coraline for same price. The wholesaller I buy from doesn't sell base rock. Otherwise I probably would.

[Baalz]

reefsociety101,
Why exactly would you want to "cook" your rock?

[dkh0331]

Originally posted by dumbreefer123
How retarded have we become, cooking LR is stupid. Proper maintnance and regular PHead blowing and a cannister setup as a vac will elimanate alot of the issue. PROPER HUSBANDRY!!!! Sounds like some idiot just wanted to coin a phrase and feel wuv'd by the reef community. Peace brotha knucklheads.

JoeW :rolleyes:

Some times stuff happens. I for one do my best to practice good husbandry, but IMPHO a bad batch of salt has created issues that despite a number of different methodologies tried, I have been unable to resolve.

BTW, you may wish to review your users agreement for Reef Central..

David

[arconom]

dumbreefer123

I guess the first posts are the worst posts? Read the thread from the beginning. Also read the RC rules you might get banned soon.

[Baalz]

how juvenile..
Obviously this is some troll at work here

[arconom]

Baalz

Try to read the thread from the beginning. It will answer alot of Questions.

Live rock cooking as nothing to do with proper husbandry.

[dkh0331]

Originally posted by dumbreefer123
Aw'come on. I can have a opinion as much as anyone. If the RC power-tards that be don't like it. Well, that can kiss my ***.

Posting opinions is what RC is all about. How one posts their opinions is covered under the UA. Name calling, etc are prohibited and specifically addressed there.

David

[reefkeeper59]

hey dumbreefer

Look at this (below)and tell me that I don't have good husbandry skills. I spend on average two to three hours everyday husbandry practices on my "tanks". I've had , black cyano,green hair algea, mantis shrimp amoung many other things and the dreaded zoo eating nudibranch. If you had any experience at this you would no better than to make the statements that reef keeping is just a matter of husbandry skills and all can be solved with a Phead blowing. Phead blowing spreads hair algea spore witch make new hair algae colonies. A turkey baister is plenty suficiant for blowing rock off. How about throwing some pics on your profile to show us your what you have. That should explain it. The name of this site is REEFCENTRAL. Do you even have a salt tank? How about CO2 injection? Got that? Calcium reator? MH Lights? Chiller?

Looks like you make a profile, just enough info to post (wow, 3 posts), no location, no pics,etc etc., Your teacher wants to know why your not in class, better get a move on.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/586/54040DSC_3620.JPG

[Baalz]

hmm.. i had hair algae for several months.. I did water changes, used turkey baster to blow off rocks and sucked out what i could when doing the water changes..

Now the hair algae is gone. I was just patient and persistant. Never saw a reason to "cook" my rocks.

And this was an existing 2.5 year old tank that most people would have screamed for me to tear out my DSB as well.

patience and persistance is what worked for me.

[dkh0331]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the discussion of cooking ones rocks continues.

BTW, for the gentlemen in the crowd, does the statement "cooking rocks" send a twinge of anticipated pain thru you? :D


David

[Broodingwolf]

don't feed the trolls please ^_^ I agree with baalz, this is just someone trolling for a fight, and I'd hate to see this great thread derailed for no good reason.

[reefkeeper59]

How about those pics? Dumbreefer123

[NwG]

Ok... My rocks are looking GREAT in the cooking sump!!! Most of the evil green stuff is gone... maybe 2sq in total (on about 260 lbs of rock) of tne white dead evil hair..... and I think I removed the last 3 remaining skins of bubble.... The stugg vomming out of the rocks is almost compleatly stopped.. just sand now... I go another 2 weeks and see what it looks like then...
I do have one question for the guys who took ALL the rock out of the tank... I fed a little too much lastnight... the tank got all cloudy, was kind of scary!! I at first fiugred something happened to my Kalk drip and CA was falling out of suspension...Nope levels checked out just fine....I think it was a large bac. bloom of some kind... Any of you guys ever have this? It cleared up in a hour or so (mostly skimmed out) I noticed the snails ate whatever was left... Anybody ever see this? I figure with no LR in the tank Much of the N process is takeing place in the water colume.....

[dkh0331]

First, THANK YOU RC for removing a few of the posts from this thread.

I will prepare my rock cooking pots this weekend and begin to fill them w/ water. After I have enough water prepared, I will begin cooking my rocks this upcoming week. I was planning on putting a MJ1200 and Hagen 802 along w/ my ER 5-2 and a heater.

Planning on a two month process, but am prepared to take as long as needed.

David

[arconom]

The Skimmer really isn't needed. I am using a small powerhead atm. Also a heater. If you have any question PM me.

[chevell]

If all you needed to do was get rid of hair algae then why not just get a bunch of astrea snails for your tank and watch the hair algae go away. Just seems like a lot of work for nothing to me.

[arconom]

Most people look for a temporary solution. I am looking for a permanent solution.

I did by all the snails you mentioned but snails die and the underlying problem is still there. There is no quick fix in this hobby.

If nutrients are locked up in your rock they will always be. Causing leaching of phosphates and other wonderful things. Buying snails is masking a problem. Buying miracal chemicals to take care of algae is not a solution. It's a bandaid.

Most of the people that are "Cooking rock" have tried all the avenues of snake oils. There ready for the solution. They are tired of spending more and more money on Equipment and chemicals that act as a temporary fix.

chevell

You would find out more info if you were to start reading a thread from the beginning. Also more research before judging a method.

[NwG]

What do you guys think about uppin the temp on the Cooking tank?
Say up it to 81-82*F... maybe this would help speed things up a little?
Not to try to shorten the process, but to get more "bang for your buck" out of the time the rock spends in cooking.....

And to the people who are not sure about this... In the 6-8 weeks I have been cooking my rock I have pulled out 45g of dark nasty skimmate (I use a skimmer while cooking, why not?) and have filled 4 5g buckets with sludge i sucked off the bottom of the tank....

[arconom]

You know what really stinks is the fact that since I'm moving I can get a bigger tank. You know what this means? I have a 75 gal atm. I guess now I will have to buy more rock and start cooking another batch:(

[Mojoreef]

I have cooked my LR a few times over the coarse of my tanks history. I believe the problem lies in the fact that the biological filtration limits of LR can not keep up with the amount of load most of us put on our systems. The cooking process gives the rock the ability to catch up with out more of a load being put upon it. Pretty simple stuff really.
I recently re aquascaped my tank and had a few peices of LR that were in the 10 year old zone, but they had some very nice shape to them. For these I used the patended method of a big boiling pot of water for 4 or 5 hours. then put them back in the tank with the balance of the rock. It only took about 2 months for those rocks to turn completely purple once again.


MIke

[arconom]

SeanT what did you clean your Vats/Drums ?The ones that you used for cooking. My 44 gal drums are stinking. I'm getting ready to make more water.

[dkh0331]

Saturday will be my first "dunk & swish". I have been running my ER 5-2 and over the past 5 days have had to empty the cup twice. My water is all set to go for Saturday.

David

[SeanT]

Originally posted by arconom
SeanT what did you clean your Vats/Drums ?The ones that you used for cooking. My 44 gal drums are stinking. I'm getting ready to make more water.
Yes I did.
After swishing the rocks they were held in smaller rubbermaids for a few minutes while I took the tub outside and rinsed it out with a garden hose.
You need to get all that detrius out of there.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by dkh0331
I have been running my ER 5-2 and over the past 5 days have had to empty the cup twice.
David,
For the record there is no need to run a skimmer on your cooking tubs.
Nature will take care of it fine.
Sean

[dkh0331]

Originally posted by SeanT
David,
For the record there is no need to run a skimmer on your cooking tubs.
Nature will take care of it fine.
Sean

Hi Sean,
The ER was sitting on the shelf, so I figured if it didn't hurt, why not. Kind of like the 60's/70's "If it feels good, do it"

David

[arconom]

SeanT I also rinse them but they have a odor that won't go away. I guess it's harmless.

[Beverly]

Have read this thread from the beginning. Very interesting.

Comments:

- some of the detritus that is coming out of the rock during the cooking process has been in the tank for at least as long as the tank has been set up. Since that detritus has been there for so long, nitrate and phosphate has long ago been biologically processed out of the detritus. They were the nutrients that fuelled the growth of various algae, and is no longer a factor in the production of new nitrate or phosphate.

- the detritus that is being caused by the die-off of algae during the cooking process is a different story as the die-off is continuously breaking down detritus which then breaks down into nitrate and phosphate. This is why swishing and water changes are so important to the process.

Questions:

- didn't know if there is a bacteria that consumes phosphate. Is there? If so, this phosphate-consuming bacteria will multiply like the dickens along with the nitrifying bacteria, correct? If not, without some form of wanted macroalgae in a system, unwanted MA will certainly reappear.

- have seen the pics of corals and fish in basically a bare tank with eggcrate. If there is no rock in the tank, how does the bare tank with very little bacteria process fish and other wastes?

- anyone experience death of aptasia, bubble algae during the cooking process?

Similar Experience:

Had an outbreak of cyano in one of my BB tanks. The stuff was not the usual fluffy red species that produces bubbles in the afternoon, but the kind that stuck to rock and the back of the tank so well that only scraping it with a reef-safe scouring pad got it off.

Got fed up with it being on the back of the tank one day, so I cleaned it off one morning. Tank got really cloudy, cloudier that during a routine turkey basting. A couple of hours later, I fed the four fish a mid-day snack and they ate well as usual. A couple of hours later, the tank had almost cleared, but found one fish dead and the corals (all softies) were shrivelled up. Was prepared for a 40% water change. Did the W/C, and while doing watched another fish that was on its last legs die. Added carbon. Hoped for the best.

Next day, the remaining two fish were still alive and the corals were beginning to open again. Figure by scouring the cyano, toxins were released which caused the whole shocking event. Cause of the cyano outbreak was a case of short term serious overfeeding the fish which has long since stopped.

A couple of weeks later, set ourselves up to remove all the rock, clean it with brushes and powerheads, rinse and swish in two pails, the second being the clean one. The first bucket took only 2-3 rocks being cleaned in it before it had to be dumped it was so dark brown/black. Stored cleaned rock in a heated rubbermaid container with powerhead.

Maintenance on the tank has been and will continue to be weekly cleaning glass then basting rock and corals, 15% water changes, obvious detritus siphoned out, then basting front to back under the LR to get at even more detritus with the siphon. Powerheads are broken down and cleaned in changewater (surprising how dirty they get in one week), pre-filter foams cleaned throughly in changewater. No skimmer, no sump. Have quite a bit of macroalgae that I actually like in the tank to soak up nutrients, so I don't really want to cook my rock.

Now I know what I did with the rock in this tank is nowhere near how the cooking process works. I probably removed lots of bacteria and other beneficial live stuff doing what I did.

Anyway, very interesting thread. Would like to see more before and after pics if possible.

[NwG]

Hey Beverly, thank you of takeing the time to read throught the thread... I am be able to answer some of your queestions...

As far as a tank with no live rock... IMO the bacteria are no in the water colume.. I had the same question until one day I fed a little too much.... my tank almost turned compleaty white!!! The only answer to this is that the bacteria were free floating and my my overfeeding caused a massive bloom!!!! Good thing my skimmer was up to par!

Bubble algea and red turf were the last to go... I was pretty surprised to see how long they could go without any light!!!! IMO bubble and red turf aren't very photo demanding algea..

Things I have noticed....
Main tank, Diotom outbreak... could be from all the plastic egg crate used to house corals on
The INSANE amount of waste corals produce... I have nothing in my tank but corals and clams... yet the amount of waste that piles up in my one dead spot is pretty insane.... I would hate to see what this would look like with fish!!! This has opened my eyes to why my DSB smelled like death when I removed it....
easy stable water parms.... I don't know why this is? I was always told that the more sand and rock in a tank, the more stable it would be..... this is not what I have seen

In all I am very happy with both goin BB and the rock cooking process so far.... My rock will go back into the tank next week or so..
I will take the after pics then.....

[arconom]

So far I have been cooking my Rock since DEC 11.04. After the second month I can tell you the aptasia that I did have on the rock I think are all gone.

Every week for 2 months after I did the swish dunk and water change, I would see lots of aptasia on the walls of my plastic drums. I think they simply bailed out of the rock since there were starved of nutrients. This continued for awhile. Now it has stopped completely.

Bomber

I'm at a point where I am a little discouraged. Everything is going great. The Algae I had before is about down to 98%. The aptasia problem is down to 99% free. The valonia problem is about at 98% free.

I am discouraged about the Red algae that I still see signs of.
http://www.marineland.com/seascope/ss2003_issue3.pdf


I always have the thought that once introduced back in the tank this will go crazy again. But I have time, I will be closing on my house in a few weeks. I will have time to setup my new 120 that I will be buying and I won't rush. I say I have about another 2 months untill I setup my new system.

My questions is this. In you Opinion would a Phosban reactor help? This would be in addition to the current water change,Swish/dunk weekly. This would not be a replacement for anything just a addition. Where not talking about a typical System where nutrients are constantly being put back in via Supplements and Food. Wouldn't this further decrease the phosphates? Also how about a skimmer also?

I'm not looking to speed this process up but looking to be even more aggressive.

[Beverly]

Originally posted by arconom
If nutrients are locked up in your rock they will always be. Causing leaching of phosphates and other wonderful things.

arconom,

Am hoping you can explain how and which nutrients become "locked up" in LR? Or maybe point me in the right direction to find these answers? Thanks for your comments :)

NwG,

Thank you for your comments :)

Still wondering if there are bacteria that consume phosphate?

[arconom]

Bomber
"Bacteria will incorporate the P and move it out of the rocks through bacterial turgor. It will look like bacterial flock - overwise known as bacterial detritus."


Bomber
"In any system, if you overload the system with phosphates, put in more than the live rock can process. Yes, you can overload the live rock too.
The difference is going to be that live rock has the ability to clean itself back up. Exactly like Mark mentioned - bacterial turgor.

Think of it like you put a pinch of yeast in the bottom of a test tube. Eventually it will foam up and run out the top. As the bacteria use up more of the yeast for food, you will reach a point where it no longer runs over the top, but just sits there.

That's about the best description I can think of to represent bacterial turgor"

[Beverly]

Thanks, arconom.

Here's an article on phosphorous, CHEMISTRY AND THE AQUARIUM by RANDY HOLMES-FARLEY:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/chem.htm

[arconom]

Thanks:)

That article is a nice read.

[aquariumclown]

Originally posted by pi
I have no first hand knowledge, but have read severl references to the technique.

The idea is to clean your older liverock by placing in new clean ASW. Every 7 days or so you give the rock a good shake and take it out and place it in a new container of ASW. You repeat this for 6 to 8 weeks.

The idea is you give the bateria in the rock nothing to feed upon except the "stuff" in the rock (organics) and over time clean it out.

It was either boomer or bomber ( get them mixed up) who I saw make the first reference to "cooking" the rock and you can search on their name for more info. You can also try seant who I believe used this technique successfully. I am thinking of trying it myself, using a few rocks at a time to "revamp" my older rock.

What does ASW stand for?

[SeanT]

Aritificial Salt Water.
Saltmix.

[Marshall]

Can you use tap water and dechlorinator to save time / RODI filters? Does the water have to be heated or just circulated? Lastly, I'm planning on using cheap salt Reef Crystals while I use IO for my tank... I don't think this will make a difference but the rock is going in my tank :)

[SeanT]

You can use tap water, no need to heat this time of year.

[Marshall]

Can you use tap water because nothing is going to grow (nuisance algae/diatoms) because of the darkness?

[SeanT]

I would use RODI water but thats just e.
Since you are cooking it the bacteria may have some more Phosphates to work their way through.
But if you are not wanting to use your RODI filters that is the way to go.

But rember this must be salt water and not fresh. :)

[brahm]

Hmm, been reading this thread, and looking @ all the algie on my rocks, (new tank old rock)..and been wondering if anybody has run say ROWAphos through the bins that they are cooking in, wouldn't this help push the process along @ a much faster rate.

[SeanT]

Maybe a bit faster, but since nature is going to do it anyway why waste the cash.
Water changes and swishing are the keys.
The more you do those the faster it will go.
Sean

[Marshall]

I have a question... I've already started the cooking and I do wonder how much will actually come off. I have some serious algae on rocks that were in a tank that you couldn't even see into for I assume the majority of its ten year life span. Needless to say this algae is really on the rocks. I've noticed after drying the rocks out for 6 months that the algae can be scraped off with a finger nail so I gave it a decent scrubbing with a new bristle brush before I started cooking but I didn't get nearly all of it. Is it likely this stuff is going to come off or am I going to have to power wash it? Thanks!!

[SeanT]

Hi phrawd,
Was the rock completely dry before you started cooking it?
If so, I would take a small piece of lr from your tank to get the bacteria going.
The rock will cycle and cook at the same time.
If it was from your tank then disregard that step.

As for the algae, when the rock is done cooking ALL of the hair algae will be gone.
Completely...so long as you cook it right.

Sean

[Marshall]

I'll add a piece of rock to each tub today. I really should cook all of my rock before going BB but all of my corals are mounted and I'll just deal with the spew once I switch over. I will do a swish of the rocks after ripping out my substrate but I just don't have a place for all of my corals if I yanked all this rock out. Plus it is completely covered in corraline and looks awesome although still has a ton of nutrients I bet.

[SeanT]

Coraline will grow back.
Build PVC for the corals. :)

[Marshall]

what about the sudden change in lighting by going down as much as 25" (150 gallon tank)? and you just stick the corals into 1-2" ID short pvc pipes? Don't most people epoxy their corals onto rocks? do you just rip them off once they are stuck? I always wonder how everyone keeps them from falling over, etc but can also move them around. Very useful thread and thanks for your replies!

[SeanT]

phrawd,
By racks I meant 4-6 legs with an eggcrate top.
Like making a PVC coffee table. :)
Sean

[NwG]

http://w-a-w.net/gallery2/main.php/d/300-2/IM002877.JPG
Kind of like this Sean :smokin:

[Marshall]

Way to save the day NWG!! I take it you guys just setup those colonies on rock shelves and don't epoxy? Or you epoxy and rip them off? I've always been confused by this :-)

[NwG]

The ones that were glued on I used a chisel and took a small chenk of rock with it... or I just broke it off and the used a chisel to get small frags...

[SeanT]

Originally posted by NwG
[IMG]Kind of like this Sean :smokin:
Zigactly!

phrawd,
I like to superglue/epoxy frags to small rocks and then epoxy the small rocks to larger ones.
That way if everything works out the corals stay put.
But, if you need to move them, a twist to the rock the coral is mounted to will pop it off of the larger rock.

hth,
Sean

[tfp]

started the cooking process on half my lr about 3 weeks ago and started the remaining lr last week. this is quite a laborious task but what sand/dirt/detritus/whatever that comes out of 220lbs of lr during the swooshing is amazing! things i've learned along the way...

1. wear a back support :D
2. don't be in a hurry to get somewhere
3. use workgloves during the process
4. setup the process outdoors or in your garage vs. in the house :D
5. make sure you don't have an important sporting event that same day :(
6. accept the fact that you'll be making a ton of asw
7. the larger pieces of lr could use a few extra dunks/swooshes
8. explain to your spouse why you are doing this so they can repeat the story a million times to friends & family :p

[Marshall]

It just occured to me that in NWG's photo there is a major decrease in the biological filtration because the rock is gone. How do you compensate for that? Especially if you have fish...

[NwG]

A good skimmer... from what I saw, the bacteria moves to the water... I overfed once and the tank got a little cloudy... This led me to belive that it moved to the water? anyone?

[Marshall]

Is this a work in progress for you or did you do this for a couple months and nothing bad happened?

[NwG]

My rock is back in the tank, cooked for 15 weeks... has never looked better... lots of stuff survived...

[Marshall]

None of the corals or anything were ill affected by the absence of rock? Did you convert to BB meaning you had sand or some kind of substrate that you tore out when you removed the rock for cooking? I bet aiptasia is going to survive this process!

[NwG]

Yes, I shop-vaced out 450lbs of sand, some of my corals lost some color but that is all pretty much back... And I had no aiptasia.. about a year ago I got 2 of the most aiptasia hungry peperment shrimp you have ever seen!!! Never seen one after that day.... But i would guess it would servive..

[SeanT]

phrawd,
Do a little research man. ;)
There are two huge threads on this subject in this forum.
The one we are in and one started by me.
Nothing survives except bacteria, sponges, pods and an occassional polyp.
Certainly not aiptasia.
Your SPS corals actually look better than when you start, there is a lowering of PO4 in your tank when you cook your rock because you take the majority of PO4 out...the rock.

[SeanT]

Here is the other thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=485572

[Marshall]

I wonder if a shop-vac will work on crushed coral? That would be awesome. Sorry to flood the thread... I do believe some aiptasia could survive as people have reported some corals surviving it. I'll stop replying now but I did read all of these threads.

[NwG]

Mine was CC, but I had a huge 5hp shop vac.. worked great.. drained the tank tell the water was just above the sand and started sucking!!!
Just dont fill the shop vac more than halfway!!! It gets hard to life.. oh ya have a place to dump the sand!!!

[Richard Francis]

Originally posted by SeanT
phrawd,
Do a little research man. ;)
There are two huge threads on this subject in this forum.
The one we are in and one started by me.
Nothing survives except bacteria, sponges, pods and an occassional polyp.
Certainly not aiptasia.
Your SPS corals actually look better than when you start, there is a lowering of PO4 in your tank when you cook your rock because you take the majority of PO4 out...the rock.

Why not just pressure wash it?

[dkh0331]

Originally posted by Richard Francis
Why not just pressure wash it?

IMPHO you would make your live rock dead, base rock, unless you are pressure washing w/ saltwater. The idea of cooking your rocks, which still sounds painful to me - as a male, is that the denitrifying bacteria still exists. Taking a pressure washer will eliminate the surface crap, but the kudies that are deep down in the rock still exists. At least that is my feeble mind's take on it.

HTH

David

[Richard Francis]

Originally posted by dkh0331
IMPHO you would make your live rock dead, base rock, unless you are pressure washing w/ saltwater. The idea of cooking your rocks, which still sounds painful to me - as a male, is that the denitrifying bacteria still exists. Taking a pressure washer will eliminate the surface crap, but the kudies that are deep down in the rock still exists. At least that is my feeble mind's take on it.

HTH

David

The bacteria will quickly resettle when put into a tank. I have used dead rock in several set-ups. Additionally, getting all of the coralian algae off the rock will improve its porisity. This will improve anarobic bacteria locations. You can also soak it in acid!

[SeanT]

Richard,
You are missing a few points.
The biggest one being the effects of bacterial turgor.
If you pressure washed it, you would knock the big crud off the rock and nothing more.
The bacteria 'drill' inside the rock pulling all of the crud out.
In effect, giving you clean rock, inside and out.
Sean

[Richard Francis]

Originally posted by SeanT
Richard,
You are missing a few points.
The biggest one being the effects of bacterial turgor.
If you pressure washed it, you would knock the big crud off the rock and nothing more.
The bacteria 'drill' inside the rock pulling all of the crud out.
In effect, giving you clean rock, inside and out.
Sean

I think you are wrong, where did you get this drilling bacteria knowledge? Who did the studies?

Live rock is used because it is porous. Anaerobic bacteria can exist there and utilize dissolved nitrates as food. When those pores are covered with crud and coralline algae, the porosity is reduced as is its ability to filter your water?

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Richard Francis
I think you are wrong, where did you get this drilling bacteria knowledge? Who did the studies?

I know I am right.
I am not debating this with you, do your own research. :)
Here is a start. Rock cooking, it does work. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=485572)

[nickb]

What is the longest time which people have kept cooked rock in a regular tank after it has been cooked? I am interested in information about whether the immediate benefits are maintained over the longer term.