DIY Coil Denitrator Plans

[kenny77]

Instructions
Examine the drawing and notice the blue shaded area within the cylinder (C). BioBalls (F). Yup, and no they aren't there so you can add another fish! These give additional surface area for anaerobic bacteria colonies.

The orange rings are the coils of plastic tubing (E) running from within an inch of the lid, down to the bottom of the unit. Once you've wound the tubing (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/ratpack77/doncoil4.jpg) , usually 1/4", around and around inside the body of the tube, straighten the coils as much as possible.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/ratpack77/coildenitrator3.jpg


Leave the end of the coil exposed, just above what will be the base or bottom (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/ratpack77/doncoil1.jpg) (D) of the device. Glue the bottom piece in place. A scrap of 1/2" acrylic is best but 1/4" will do. I recommend against 1/8" as it is too fragile.

base or bottom (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/ratpack77/doncoil1.jpg) , again 1/4" will do here. For your input (A) and effluent lines (output=B) you can simply run the tubing through these holes and seal with silicone or place fittings here and use nipple connectors... whatever you like. I recommend the fittings as there will be pressure in the unit and a good seal is required. Pour in the BioBalls at this point. Keep them about 1" below what will be the top of the denitrator.

At this point you should have a cylinder (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/ratpack77/doncoil2.jpg) (C) with a bottom, coils of tubing wrapped (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/ratpack77/doncoil3.jpg) around the inside walls of the acrylic tube, BioBalls inside the coils and a lid with fittings or holes drilled. Attach the upper end of the 1/4" tubing to one of the nipples. Glue the lid/top on. Use Weld-On #16 thickened acrylic cement. It fills minor imperfections and sets within an hour.

All done, except for one last detail. A proper drip rate is needed to maintain dwell-time within the unit so the bacterias can gobble up the nitrates. Too fast a flow and your tests will show nitrites, as the bacterias have too much O-2 and denitrification isn't taking place. Too slow a drip or flow rate and hydrogen sulfides are produced, giving a rotten-egg smell that indicates trouble to the inhabitants of the reef or fish tank. I have experimented and found that a drip of just under a steady-stream is best. In other words, a very fast drip, but a definite drip just the same. Use a small air valve to regulate this on the output tube (B) running back to your sump or display tank.

When finished the unit is sealed and not intended to be disassembled. Once up and running the coil denitrator will last for many, many years without any adjustments or fiddling. About the only area of attention is the drip valve. This requires cleaning periodically to remove salt crystal build-up! Cost to build this unit is around what you'd pay to BUY one through a catalog house, but where's the satisfaction in that? If you don't wish to DIY, there are several commercial units on the market that are very good and I recommend them all. The issue here is getting rid of nitrates, either through building or buying. I just like tinkering with the hobby and enjoy the challenges of DIY! Good luck, and any additional comments or questions may be directed to me, Don Carner.

About Nitrate & How This Thing Actually Works
The coil denitrator takes 5 to 6 weeks to cycle (yes, they cycle just like the tank). The quantity of product that is processed, (nitrate) is truly amazing considering how once established, there isn't anything more to do! So how does this happen? As oxygen rich water is pumped into (G) and enters the top of the unit (A) it is forced to spiral down through the layers of plastic coil tubing (E) until exiting within the center of the cylinder (C). As the water level increases within the body of the unit, the BioBalls (F) become host to the millions of colonies of bacteria's that commence multiplying. As the water reaches back up to the top, it exits through the other fitting (B), the one not internally connected that runs back to your sump or display tank. So? So, as the water slowly works it's way down the spiral, the O-2 is consumed by AEROBIC bacterias, the same ones that are in your filter and make all the life possible. Somewhere around 3/4th's of the way down however, the O-2 levels diminish within the spiral, having been consumed by the aerobic bacterias higher up the coil. (D=Base; G=Water Pump)

Now what? Well, now the ANAEROBIC bacterias begin to flourish, the very ones that feed on nitrate, not O-2! As the water continues its travels it encounters the main interior chamber of the cylinder. All those BioBalls are just waiting to provide area for more anaerobic bacteria to consume all the nitrate that wasn't converted inside the bottom 1/4 of coil. This is the "bank" that will allow the coil denitrator to continuously process more and more nitrate as it is produced within the display tank.


what you think about this DIY and you think this will work?. any suggestion on this or opinion on how to improve this.?

thanks
kenny

[s10reefer]

i built one of these and it worked - the nitrates going in were about 20 (this was when i was having tank issues) and they came out as 0... The only problem was it could't process enough water to make a differance i have about 200 gallons of water and i used the highest rated eheim pump (not sure on gph rating) Denitrator was 2.5 feet tall had 75 feet of 1/4" coils and bioballs in the center chamber. The fastest i could get water through was a steady drip and it did not bring down my tanks nitrate at all. May have been beneficial on a smaller tank like 30 gallons or something.

[rsman]

its a very nice general description on how they work, and where to start in building one.

do they work YES, is that enough information to build you own, well its missing info, mostly size. you can search for one of a zilllion of these in the DIY, breeders forum and a few others and just copy it, or break down and do math.

[rsman]

1 75' run of 1/4" ID coils is right for about a 75 gal tank max

[BeanAnimal]

I would imagine these can become quite dangerous in the event of power failure or "reversed flow" due to siphoning or other mishaps?

Check valves? Bypass considerations?

Thoughts?

[rsman]

not really

well ok not realistically

as for power failures your tank will be in trouble before the denitrator, though its effectiveness will drop quickly it doesnt become "dangerous" for 4 or 5 days or more depending on volume of the bioball chamber. reverse flow wud be bad, but also not dangerous, it shouldnt be setup to return under water, it should always flow or drip from an elevated point into the water, this does a few things but first off it removes the temptation to not check up on it every now and then, it also adds o2 to the water fairly quickly the water will be trying to give off co2 and "suck" o2 in.

bypass well that depends on plumbing, check valves no they are not required and only add problems, pre filter things (whatever really) are a good thing though

[ynot]

How often or at all would you have to clean the bio balls?

[rsman]

never, once you seal the unit up, you cant open it, doing so would require the unit to recycle.

on a *LARGE* unit you would want a gunk drain for lack of a better word, but just a tap at the bottom you could remove large amounts of water over a very short period of time like 1 gallon as fast as you can but *LARGE*

[BeanAnimal]

Is this a safe bet for any tank? Or a last resort kinda thing if all else fails? Rotten egg smell will get me kicked out to live with the worms, spiders and other exiled creatures.

Bean

[rsman]

you wont get rotten egg smells unless you did something very wrong, at that point the denitrator has crashed it needs to be cleaned and re-cycled

as for what tank to put it on, its great for any FO, or FOWLR
reefs well it will remove nitrate, it wont help with phosphate, and doesnt do so great to that person with less than 3ppm ish nitrate trying to get to 0

[BeanAnimal]

Could this setup be gravity fed? I.E. from the tank to the sump or is it better pressure fed? I read about these in the past but have quite a renewed interest. Anything that I can do to lessen the scheduled water changes, the happier I am.

Bean

[s10reefer]

The water will never make it through the coils if gravity fed - you have to use a pump - and a good one at that... Actually the rotten egg smell is an indication that the denitrator is working properly, i dont remember exactly why it smells has to do with some biologicals in the water, What i did and i think everyone should do is run the efflent water through a small container with an airstone in it - this oxegenates the water and eliminates the egg smell.

[rsman]

umm ok well yes they can be gravity fed, and no the hydrogensulfate is a very much BAD thing it means that instead of consuming nitrate its consuming sulfur its also very bad for a fish tank, check out all the threads on hydrogensulfate in the chem forum, its the same problem with bad DSB's and plennums. it generally means you didnt follow the directions.

[s10reefer]

how are you going to get a gravity feed to run through 75 feet of presurized coils?

[rsman]

there is no requirement of "pressurized" and for a 75ft coil the rate is not much more than a very fast drip. you wanna process more water get more coils or a larger one.

[niko5]

Ied like to try one of these.... im debating between having one of these or an Algae turf scrubber... has anyone else built the denitrator one and had success?

[BeanAnimal]

S10

If the coil is at a level between the display and the sump... I would think the water will gravity feed through it. After all the output is lower than the input. In effect I siphon would be created.


I will simply drill a small hole slightly below the surface of the water and let it gravity feed the coil and drip the water into the sump. I could even drill the underside of the overflows horizontal plumbing.
Bean

[rsman]

these are not new. they are not new to this forum, there are a lot of people using them. if it were me id do both this and an ATS, though that pic looks big, they really are not. you can make one out of a 3" X 18" piece of pvc. thatll be good for a 75 gallon tank

[rsman]

a small U tube works great to get the water out of the tank, also you can put the coil below the tank itll still siphon up into the sump (assuming the sump is lower than the tank :D )

[niko5]

rsman, what is a happy size for a 125 gal tank :)

4" x 18" ?

[rsman]

i have one on my FO its a 125 thats heavily stocked with dirty fish its got one using 3 x 50' long .170 ID coils its 4" X 20"

[niko5]

Only 50' of tubing?

[rsman]

read carefully

.170 ID

this stuff is 1/4" OD its thinner, now that you know that, you can use shorter runs by using thinner coils. for a long time I had a small unit on my 7gal minibow it used 4 7' long coils using some very small vinyl tubing :D

[niko5]

Where do you pick up this magical thinner wall tubing? Its not the same as the icemaker tubing right? Iv never seen thin wall 1/4" tube.

[rsman]

hehe yea most icemaker tubing is 1/4" OD so is some of the drip irrigation stuff.

its not thinner wall its .170 instead of 1/4" because they measure the outside not the inside. its just where you buy and what its called some of its labeled .170 other is labeled 1/4" for the same stuff, if you go asking for 1/4" tubing you generally end up with 1/4 ID

i say it with emphisis because ive responded to a lot of coil denitrator threads and it gets lost to some.

[kenny77]

well by the next week im gonna have mine working on the tank. i will try to post every pic on how to do it and how to intall it. inlcuding a list of material.

rsman thank for all does reply. you really help me on some stuff i also didnt knew about it

[rsman]

not to be mean or insensitive to others that know how these work, but ask now, ill be out of town and away from the internet (donno what im gona do bout that, itll be a first in over 5 years :D ) for over a week starting sat early. im glad to help out until then.

[niko5]

So you saying ask for the 1/4" ? heh joking :) ok ... looking for .170... so running 50 ft of that in a 4" x 20" tube with balls in the middle should make a nice denitrator?

[rsman]

ooh yea if you have a heat gun and can get the cheaper thin pvc you can wrap the thin pvc with the tubing insert that combo into your bioball chamber. drill 2 holes in the pvc at the top and bottom to thread the tubing thru. otherwise wrap the inside of your 4" tubing with your tubing both will work. dual coils for a 125 is better than 1, and more is generally better. longer is not better and will not increase processing ability.

[Afishianado]

I built one of these last week and took pictures if anyone is interested. It is up and running now so we'll see what happens. It is on a 65 gallon system right now with medium bioload. I will take some measurements and see how it goes.

Should hae asked this before but does anyone know of where some of the info can be found for ammount fo media vs denitrating capability etc?

[niko5]

Ied like to see the pictures

[rsman]

Should hae asked this before but does anyone know of where some of the info can be found for ammount fo media vs denitrating capability etc?

it doesnt quite work that way, generally speaking once its cycled the setup will remove all of the nitrate that enters the unit, your limit isnt the amount of media, but instead the coil is your limit. but that is generally speaking of course so if you get overly creative your on your own :D the reason the media works better than just the coil alone is because the bacteria that removes nitrate does best in a lower flow area as they are fragile, the coils where the oxygen is removed does not have that limit.

[Afishianado]

right , my thinking though is that the coil could remove all of the oxygen but there should be some minimum ammount of media to remove nitrate of a given total ammount. For example 75 ft of tubing and X ammount of media is good for X ammount of nitrate...\

Also I forgot to add that mine is gravity fed.

By the way, can anyone suggest a good place to post these pictures, When I try to post them in my gallery I always end up with small pictures that are tough to see in detail. would also be better to post text with it. I'll put it all together I just need a place to post it all.

Chris

[rsman]

there is a nasty formula its based on flow rates in gph and surface area of 1' of the coil and surface area of the medium, i said its nasty right :D you can find it in 1970's waste water treatment data. but it comes out to about the same surface area as 2' of the coil length, which would be like 1 bio ball.

[edited added]
but thats a minimum. and a few bio balls are better

[Afishianado]

ok I threw togther an MS word document wih text and photos. If you want it Pm me and I'll email it you. Otherwise you can wait until I find a place to post it as a web page. I used front page express to build it into a website, I'll try to find a place to post it and I'll update this thread when I do.

[Afishianado]

ok try this link, tell me if it works for you and if the thing makes sense

http://2hot2cool.com/4/afishianado/afishian.htm

Chris

[Afishianado]

ok got to get the IMG tags right, i'll post here again once it is right

[Afishianado]

ok if someone is willing to try out the link please elt me know if it works now.

here it is again

http://2hot2cool.com/4/afishianado/afishian.htm

[rsman]

werks, gewd, but umm those insert connectors were probibly a bad idea, as they will clog :( one way to get around that would be to build a pre filter instead of tearing it all apart :D at least thats something

[Afishianado]

Cool, thanks for verifing it. I hope someone finds it useful. I know that mine is a bit different than what other people have but I was going off of those plans that made me want to make some with photos.

Clogging? hmmm, I've used these things forever on all kinds of things, only ever seen one clog and then it just screws out, run under the water and screw it back in, good as new. Guess you could use straight ones too, the 90s just keep the hose from kinking. I used to do the old drill a hole, stick the tube through, and slop glue all over it. It works but looks like crap when I do it.

[rsman]

oops not the fittings the ones used to extend the coil from 25' to 75'

remember you cant open this, if you do you will have issues at best.

[Afishianado]

ooh hadn't thought of that. guess I should have used the next size up tubing for splicing. We'll see how it goes.

[prugs]

Just wanted to say that I built a couple of 2' tall x 4" dia coil denitrators almost a year ago.
They do help with the nitrates, but a 2' unit is limited to a 30 gal tank. I run one on a 37gal & another on a 75gal. They do work to keep the nitrates down, but not to "0".
I have the water coming out at about 1-2 drops/second into the top of a spray injection skimmer. This quickly adds O2 to the water.
They do work better than the deep sandbed in my 56gal.

[rsman]

prugs

whats the nitrate and nitrite from the output water, and what size tubing did you use for the coil?

a guess as i dont know the setup yet, but you might be running too slow.

you didnt really provide a lot of info, but the height alone isnt the issue, size of the coils really makes the difference.

[prugs]

Thats a good ?. I never did check to see what the nitrate & nitrite output was. I have no measurable nitrite or ammonia in the tank.
From all the reading that I have done. 1-2 drops/second is suppossed to be about right.
The coils are made from appox 75' of .170 ID ice maker tubing (polyethylene).
The center of the chamber is filled with Corallife mini bioballs.

[rsman]

I have no measurable nitrite or ammonia in the tank.
good :D

From all the reading that I have done. 1-2 drops/second is suppossed to be about right.
nope its about right to cycle the unit, but its not best for a running unit. you should of course test the water, and you should NOT make fast changes

The coils are made from appox 75' of .170 ID ice maker tubing (polyethylene). The center of the chamber is filled with Corallife mini bioballs.
sounds like a typical setup should be rated for aprox 75 gallons max (want more power add more coils)

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by rsman
dual coils for a 125 is better than 1, and more is generally better. longer is not better and will not increase processing ability.

As in more separate units? Longer not better, due to oxygen being long gone and the biobals being the limiting factor? I am kinda lost here. How can 2 "small seperate units" be better than one super large unit with a lots of wraps of coil and a large diamter?

BEan

[niko5]

prugs, did you have no nitrate in your tank before or after you installed the coil? If you had some nitrates before what were they and how long did it take for them to go down.

[rsman]

As in more separate units? Longer not better, due to oxygen being long gone and the biobals being the limiting factor? I am kinda lost here. How can 2 "small seperate units" be better than one super large unit with a lots of wraps of coil and a large diamter?

ok so clearly i didnt clear anything up :D

the bio-balls are almost never the limit, the coils supplying the bio-balls is almost always the limit(within some reason).

as soon as the O2 is removed from the water, the water *should* be outside of the coil and in a reduced flow area(but still sealed from O2). if your coils are longer it has a number of effects, mostly effeciency until you get really really long, then it gets nasty. if its short you get nitrite and nitrate and no good.

you dont need a large amount of media outside of the coils for the work to be done, so if your in design mode build 1 unit with 2 or more coils, if you already have a unit then either upgrading (tearing the one you have apart and adding more coils) or adding an additional unit.

even when you get longer larger diameter coils your still better with multiple coils, its still an effeciency thing.

[usjaz]

Guys,

The BioBall limited surface area might be the limiting factor for your DIY denitrator here. Try a different substrate like Seahem Denitrate or Matrix. (and, no, these are not chemical filters or mechanical filters like Polyfilter). Denitrate will work better than Matrix, it has more surface area. More info is available at Seachem website:

www.seachem.com

With either substrate you should be able to increase the flow rate too. The original Seachem recommeded flow rate for Denitrate is <50g/h. But I am sure a number lower than that is probably better in this application, but still way fast than the rate prescribed here ;)

And if the coiled tube didn't consume all O2 with higher flow, the bottom layer substrate will.

cheers,

[rsman]

The BioBall limited surface area might be the limiting factor for your DIY denitrator here.
as long as the coil length is chosen correctly (in a correct ratio of diameter to length) its really not, the amount of surface area required is soo small that the pipe holding the bio-balls alone is close to enough

With either substrate you should be able to increase the flow rate too.
many ppl ive replied to should increase the flow rate and make no other changes, most dont push there denitrators to anywhere near there limits, then complain that they dont work well enough.

The original Seachem recommeded flow rate for Denitrate is <50g/h.
im not gona go hunting but if i recall correctly that flow rate is for that media in an open flow, not in a denitrator, with that flow rate you are hoping to process nitrate passively like live rock does, a functioning coil denitrator will remove all of the nitrate that goes into the unit. instead of some of it.

And if the coiled tube didn't consume all O2 with higher flow, the bottom layer substrate will.
unfortunately when this happens the entire chamber is effected, while some higher density media might still passively remove nitrate the chamber itself wont and you will have nitrate in your water

another minor issue to consider when experimenting is that if you have too much surface area for the flow rate of the coil you will create hydrogen sulfate gas, a bad thing.

[usjaz]

Originally posted by rsman
as long as the coil length is chosen correctly (in a correct ratio of diameter to length) its really not, the amount of surface area required is soo small that the pipe holding the bio-balls alone is close to enough


That is assuming that only the coiled tube is doing the nitrification processing (removing O2).

Could it be that the limiting fact here is precisely the assumption that only the coiled tube should perform nitrification?


many ppl ive replied to should increase the flow rate and make no other changes, most dont push there denitrators to anywhere near there limits, then complain that they dont work well enough.


Right. But even with a proper flow rate, The processing ability of the denitrator is still quite limited considering the amount of space it takes IMO. How can we improve it?



im not gona go hunting but if i recall correctly that flow rate is for that media in an open flow, not in a denitrator, with that flow rate you are hoping to process nitrate passively like live rock does, a functioning coil denitrator will remove all of the nitrate that goes into the unit. instead of some of it.

That's a flow thru rate that will cause the media to act as both aerobic on the surface and anaerobic media at the core. see http://www.seachem.com/home/ProductSpotlight3.html

To get complete anaerobic filter in this application a lower rate is needed. I did say that in my post. And if a significant increased denitrification ability can be realized by utilizing these substrate, then one should, and need to, increase the feed rate to supply the sufficient nitrate.



unfortunately when this happens the entire chamber is effected, while some higher density media might still passively remove nitrate the chamber itself wont and you will have nitrate in your water


I guess this is the part I don't understand. I am not sure if I understand why. The flow rate is low enough that water rise up very slowly from the bottom of the chamber , filtering thru a relative denser substrate? (Again, we are not using the bioballs which are much much less dense, thus under a given flow rate, much less likely to host aerobic and anaerobic process at the same time, it will host one or another depends on the flow rate and O2 availibility).

You think there is still not enough contact time w/ these new substrate?


Could the DSB be an counter example in a reversed direction? The top layer is aerobic, and the bottom layer is anaerobic. The rate water penetrate down to the deeper layer of sand is anologous the flow rate of denitrator penetrating up towards the effluent port, in the opposite direction? The obvious key is to use a rate that is slow enough that the aerobic won't overun the aerobic layer? That's not even counting the proneous nature of Denitrate substrate, which should make it more effective aerobically.


And, even *IF* the nitrate is then only removed by the core of Denitrate substrate. *IF* (to be experiemented) denitrifying at a more efficient rate, does it really matter if the chamber is not complete anaerobic? It wouldn't.

[niko5]

rsman, by duel coils you meen like take 75' or ice maker tubeing and coil it up then take another 75' and coil it inside of that coil and have 2 inputs for the denitrator?

would 150 feet be to much for a 125 gal tank? In say 6" pipe 2' tall?

[niko5]

You know something else that would be need it an O2 sensor at the base of the unit where the water comes out of the coils then you can adjust the denitrator perfectly :)

[FireEater]

I'm also searching around for the right size and length of hose to use to build one for a 125g setup, keeping in mine I also have a 29g refugium and 30g sump.

So I guess I need to build one for 184g's.

Mark

[prugs]

Originally posted by niko5
prugs, did you have no nitrate in your tank before or after you installed the coil? If you had some nitrates before what were they and how long did it take for them to go down.

Before I had a coil denitrator, I had to do biweekly water changes to keep the nitrates below 40ppm. Now I do water changes once a month, & they never get over 10ppm.

I should really have a dedicated pump for the denitrator. Right now I just have a Tee off of a rena filstar cannister. Even with the valve full open on the top of the denitrator, I only get 1-2 drops/sec.

I am not sure what type of pump to get. The water going thru all that tubing creates quite abit of resistance to flow. Also the denitrator sits on the floor, & the top of the tank is over 5' tall where the return is to the skimmer.

[niko5]

Mark, my tank is very simmilar to yours in total volume so let me know if you find something as far as lengths of coil.

[rsman]

usjaz
That is assuming that only the coiled tube is doing the nitrification processing (removing O2).
Could it be that the limiting fact here is precisely the assumption that only the coiled tube should perform nitrification?

ok so first off your seeing some kind of limit? that im not. if the bacteria in the coil are exposed to oxygen they will switch from aerobic to anaerobic (they do that) the results are nitrite.

Right. But even with a proper flow rate, The processing ability of the denitrator is still quite limited considering the amount of space it takes IMO. How can we improve it?
by sizing your coil denitrator for the job, look back over this thread at .170ID a length of only 50' is enough yet there are several different posts with people using 75', for whatever reason they feel. also if space is an issue dont use 2 tons of bio-balls 4 6 or even 8 is enough, the important part of the equasion is a slower but not stalled flow rate across some media.

I did say that in my post. And if a significant increased denitrification ability can be realized by utilizing these substrate, then one should, and need to, increase the feed rate to supply the sufficient nitrate
it cant, and you are creating stalled space, that is areas where the flow stops, at that point hydrogen sulfate is created, this will kill your tank. nitrate is not the only requirement of the bacteria, they breeth nitrate but still have to consume carbon.

And, even *IF* the nitrate is then only removed by the core of Denitrate substrate. *IF* (to be experiemented) denitrifying at a more efficient rate, does it really matter if the chamber is not complete anaerobic? It wouldn't.
except you cant control that. it wont be stable, itll be like any other denitrator that doesnt use the coil. there are a few you can search for them.


niko5

rsman, by duel coils you meen like take 75' or ice maker tubeing and coil it up then take another 75' and coil it inside of that coil and have 2 inputs for the denitrator?
thats the basics of it, if you have a really high bio-load feel free to use 3 coils instead of 2.

would 150 feet be to much for a 125 gal tank? In say 6" pipe 2' tall?
nope, and no need to go to a 6" pipe feel free to stay with 3"

it all really depends on bio-load, if you want to get more get a larger diameter tubing with a longer length, and though my tank has kinda crashed while i was away with only 5 fish left out of 12 my 125 FO was chuging along on 3 50' coils, a list of the nastiest fish there was a large sailfin tang and still a picasso trigger and a lunar wrase, the rest were kinda standard like a GSM clown, jewel damsel.

there hasnt been a working skimmer in a while and there is no LR (ok like 4lbs in the display :D ) and there is a huge DIY bio-wheel nitrates have not been a problem in a while, and i dont do waterchanges.


You know something else that would be need it an O2 sensor at the base of the unit where the water comes out of the coils then you can adjust the denitrator perfectly
ooh yea there you go complicate it even more :D testing for nitrite and nitrate will do just fine.

[FireEater]

rsman, Thanks for all the great posts on this subject. You have helped me a lot in building mine and setting it up properly.

I will begin on it today.

Mark

[Longarço]

Hi everybody, i would to know, what's the pump i need? How many gal/h?
Thank's for any help and sorry my poor english!!!

[rsman]

longarco
you will have to give us more information, like what size coil denitrator, and how its plumbed like from in the tank to a lower sump, or any other information, there is a chance you dont need a pump.

[Silencer]

This is interesting. I'm wondering if this would work with an acrylic tube or if algae would grow and cause clogging/failure.

[rsman]

algae isnt the problem, those that are in acrylic tubes as an outer container either use colored acrylic or an inner pvc piece (often doubling as a support for the coil itself) to block the bio material from light, light itself reduces the effect of the bacteria.

[Longarço]

Hi rsman,
I'll use in a 7g minibow with 1g back sump.
My intencion is put the coil denitrator hang on the sump our in the sump, so, that the reason of the pump.
I think use a 4 inches pvc, 10 inches tall.
Can i use silicone air tube?
What's the pump a need?
Thank's for any help!!
Sorry my english, i hope you understand!!!

[rsman]

ooh cool i used to have one on a 7g minibow.

most silicone tubing is bad its too soft.

if you want a small one you can get some tubing at a model shop its teflon and narrow, you can use 2 20' lengths wrap it inside a 2" piece of pvc and add 4 bio balls :D total length is like 8" which is shorter than the minibow.

even is you do choose to use .170ID or .250ID tubing you can power them with anypower head the low flow rate will allow you to use most pumps for both the coil and waterflow.

[Silencer]

Does the light effect both types of bacteria or only one? For example if you ran the tubing coil on the outside of a pvc tube exposed to light, but the bioball reaction chamber was inside the opaque pvc, would this be ok? Or would the light harm the coil bacteria too that remove oxygen? Or is it the other way around maybe, and the bioball chamber could be exposed to light but the coil should be hidden.

The other question is what is the radio of tube inner diameter to required coil length? For a larger tank you could run multiple small coils or a few coils with larger tubing and I'm curious which would be more compact and easy to deal with (since with multiple small coils you have multiple connections and more hassle/complexity).

[rsman]

Does the light effect both types of bacteria or only one?
only one

For example if you ran the tubing coil on the outside of a pvc tube exposed to light, but the bioball reaction chamber was inside the opaque pvc, would this be ok?
this is generally how its done, this is the order :D some even use the tubing to block the light from the rest of the bio chamber


Or would the light harm the coil bacteria too that remove oxygen? Or is it the other way around maybe, and the bioball chamber could be exposed to light but the coil should be hidden.
indirectly light is bad for the entire coil, the reasons just change.
EX the coil. its narrow, the nitrate is not low yet, the oxygen is low and co2 is high, add light and you get algae which will clog the coil
EX the bio chamber. though the nitrate is low algae will still grow, it takes that co2 and re adds oxygen, which effects the bacteria, but the bacteria are also light sensitive.

The other question is what is the radio of tube inner diameter to required coil length?

its complex :D larger diameters require a much longer length, not only is the ratio of surface area to water different but the bacteria only grow on the surface of the tubing which means your water needs to move further to help it work

For a larger tank you could run multiple small coils or a few coils with larger tubing and I'm curious which would be more compact and easy to deal with (since with multiple small coils you have multiple connections and more hassle/complexity).
generally its always more effecient to run more than 1 coil connected to the same bio chamber. the only significant hassle is when you are cycling the unit. how many you run, and how large a coil you use is dependant on system volume and nitrate rise.

[DerrickBrown]

Would a 500' coil in 3' or 4' tall cylinder and 4" diameter be too much for a 125g? If not what would the drip rate be?

Would (2) 250' coils with one outlet be a better choice?

Seems more water would be processed with a longer length. Also a faster flow rate could be allowed which would in turn move more water through the denitrator which would allow the tank to be turned over more often that would decrease the nitrates overall. The output would be reoxygenated through a trickle filter with liverock, so the oxygen level in the water should not be a concern before returning to the main display tank.

I'm I on the totally wrong path or semi wrong?

Thanks

[rsman]

Seems more water would be processed with a longer length
NO NO NO NO

wrong direction!!!!

the coil has to be the correct size, larger diameter = longer coil, and its a heavy curve you double the diameter you almost tripple the length, dont experiment until you understand that, the results are BAD!!!, not trying to scare you away from building a coil denitrator, just be careful

next thing, of all the water that goes into the coil ALL of the nitrates are removed (assume its working)

so how high of a bio load are you expecting,
a 2 coil unit using .170ID tubing 50' long will process aprox 8gph, you can do the math you do know that its not the same as a 192 gallon water change each day, as itll reduce the nitrate but itll mix and its kinda the same as frequent small changes but its going on 24/7, think you will need more processing power add more coils. now if its a breeding type of setup or another very high bio load setup, you can up the diameter and the length to process more but you add some $$ and up the process rate to way high.

<< side note hijacking the thread for a moment >>
Interests: Reefs, Model Airplanes
whatcha fly ???

my 3 favs are my modified spirit to 3m wingspan, a tallon, and a beachcraft bonanza.

[DerrickBrown]

Originally posted by rsman
Seems more water would be processed with a longer length
NO NO NO NO

wrong direction!!!!

the coil has to be the correct size, larger diameter = longer coil, and its a heavy curve you double the diameter you almost tripple the length, dont experiment until you understand that, the results are BAD!!!, not trying to scare you away from building a coil denitrator, just be careful

next thing, of all the water that goes into the coil ALL of the nitrates are removed (assume its working)

No problem, you didn't scare me. I have built a denitrator for my 55 gal. 75' with 1/4" OD, 1/8" ID. It is still cycling, but I have tested the output and the nitrates are practically 0, but the nitrites are up right now to 1-2 ppm, with a drip/sec. I have a few more weeks left before the cycling completes.

My DIY Coil Deni is about 11-12" tall with a 4" diameter.. I have bioballs inside also. I have only 6-8 balls inside if I can remember correctly. That is all that would fit. Is this setup enough for the 55 gal or do I need to make a taller unit to hold more media? I want to process as much as a can without causing problems.

so how high of a bio load are you expecting,
a 2 coil unit using .170ID tubing 50' long will process aprox 8gph, you can do the math you do know that its not the same as a 192 gallon water change each day, as itll reduce the nitrate but itll mix and its kinda the same as frequent small changes but its going on 24/7, think you will need more processing power add more coils. now if its a breeding type of setup or another very high bio load setup, you can up the diameter and the length to process more but you add some $$ and up the process rate to way high.

How do you calculate the gph rating? I haven't added anything up, but does a drop/sec = 8gph or 8gpd.

A buddy has a 125gal and we are trying to come up with a denitrator that will handle his tank with ease. The tank doesn't have a heavy load now, but that will change over time and the right setup is needed.

So, if the diameter is doubled, then triple the length? ok

I read on reeflougne.com that once a DIY coil deni has cycled, you can open the valve up for free flow of water. I was always under the impression that it had to stay roughly a drip/sec or a little faster (steady drip, but still a drip), but not full flow. This wasn't correct was it?

<< side note hijacking the thread for a moment >>
Interests: Reefs, Model Airplanes
whatcha fly ???

my 3 favs are my modified spirit to 3m wingspan, a tallon, and a beachcraft bonanza.

I do like the Bonanza.

I have a Superstar 40 (46FX), FourStar 60 (YS .91FZ), Superstick 40 (46FX), Fat Free Taco (Saito 40), Funtana S 90 (YS 1.10FZ), Katana 1.40 (YS 1.40DZ), a few gliders and electrics all using a Futaba 9C radio.

[rsman]

but the nitrites are up right now to 1-2 ppm, with a drip/sec.
its going to fast slow it down.

How do you calculate the gph rating?
this time experience, otherwise dificult math :D

I haven't added anything up, but does a drop/sec = 8gph or 8gpd.
nope :D

I read on reeflougne.com that once a DIY coil deni has cycled, you can open the valve up for free flow of water. I was always under the impression that it had to stay roughly a drip/sec or a little faster (steady drip, but still a drip), but not full flow. This wasn't correct was it?
free flow is such a complicated thing, but yes that is correct as it cycles you should be slowly speeding it up, until its going quite fast. using gravity alone you probibly wont get 100% effieicncy, as you can often push the water just a bit faster, but to get 100% or anywhere near there takes more work settling for 80% by using gravity and just "opening it up" is a nice comprimise. also the once a DIY coil deni has cycled it should be as the CD is cycling

a few gliders and electrics all using a Futaba 9C radio
cool im using a few radios my flash 5 is my current fav, i have a futaba 6something 50mhz but its older and lacks some of the features.

[DerrickBrown]

Originally posted by rsman

but the nitrites are up right now to 1-2 ppm, with a drip/sec.
its going to fast slow it down.
I will slow the flow as you recommend. I thought the NO2 spike was normal during the cycling process as the colonies were forming or trying to form. I'll slow it down today.


How do you calculate the gph rating?
this time experience, otherwise dificult math :D
I figured as much about the math. I thought you may have had a simple technique that I could use. I can always measure the output for 15 mins in a measured container, then multiply this by 4, then by 24 to give me the amount for the day. I can convert this amount into gals or any other measurement I need.


I haven't added anything up, but does a drop/sec = 8gph or 8gpd.
nope :D
:) I knew this wasn't the case. I was trying to see where the 8gph came from.


I read on reeflougne.com that once a DIY coil deni has cycled, you can open the valve up for free flow of water. I was always under the impression that it had to stay roughly a drip/sec or a little faster (steady drip, but still a drip), but not full flow. This wasn't correct was it?
free flow is such a complicated thing, but yes that is correct as it cycles you should be slowly speeding it up, until its going quite fast. using gravity alone you probibly wont get 100% effieicncy, as you can often push the water just a bit faster, but to get 100% or anywhere near there takes more work settling for 80% by using gravity and just "opening it up" is a nice comprimise. also the once a DIY coil deni has cycled it should be as the CD is cycling
This is a new issue for me. I didn't know that you sped up the system once it finishes cycling. I now imagine you open it up as fast as it will go, but still be able to do the converting for the system to work. If nitrites are climbing then it needs to be turned down some. So the drip/sec or slower is only for the cycling process to form the colonies. I got it now. Once the colonies are formed, the flow can be increased. I now understand how 8 gph or 8gpd can be collected.


a few gliders and electrics all using a Futaba 9C radio
cool im using a few radios my flash 5 is my current fav, i have a futaba 6something 50mhz but its older and lacks some of the features. [/B]
Hitec makes nice equiptment. I use a ton of their servos and Rx. I thought you may have had the Futaba 6EXA until I saw it was 50 mhZ. I really do like my 9C. I'd love to own the new $2199.00 14 ch. radio with Windows operating system, but that is a whole other discussion board.

Thanks again for the help.
Derrick

[rsman]

I will slow the flow as you recommend. I thought the NO2 spike was normal during the cycling process as the colonies were forming or trying to form.
its normal, its undesired, the solution is to slow it down :D

then multiply this by 4, then by 24 to give me the amount for the day. I can convert this amount into gals or any other measurement I need.
well thats how i got my experience :D by calculate i assumed (i know ... ) that you wanted to guess ahead of time.

This is a new issue for me. I didn't know that you sped up the system once it finishes cycling. I now imagine you open it up as fast as it will go, but still be able to do the converting for the system to work. If nitrites are climbing then it needs to be turned down some. So the drip/sec or slower is only for the cycling process to form the colonies. I got it now. Once the colonies are formed, the flow can be increased. I now understand how 8 gph or 8gpd can be collected.
just to make sure, the speed up should happen DURRING the cycle. if there is nitrate at all in the output you need to adjust the unit. as it cycles you should be slowly speeding it up.

Hitec makes nice equiptment. I use a ton of their servos and Rx. I thought you may have had the Futaba 6EXA until I saw it was 50 mhZ. I really do like my 9C. I'd love to own the new $2199.00 14 ch. radio with Windows operating system, but that is a whole other discussion board.
yea older than the 6exa and yea 50mhz, and WOW that new system is awesome sounding, and yep definately a different board :D

[rsman]

uugh hold on wait stop!!!!

i got it backwards

if you find nitrite then speed up
if you find nitrate then slow down

!!!!

[DerrickBrown]

Originally posted by rsman
uugh hold on wait stop!!!!

i got it backwards

if you find nitrite then speed up
if you find nitrate then slow down

!!!!

Ok, I'm lost now. :confused: I have nitrites forming now (1-2 ppm), so speed up or slow down?

I thought the output should be zero for both and only nitrogen should be the end product.


but the nitrites are up right now to 1-2 ppm, with a drip/sec.
its going to fast slow it down.
Speed up? Slow down?

[rsman]

Ok, I'm lost now.
yea sorry was thinking bout airplanes as i did that response,

the last post is correct,

you have nitrites so speed it up, a little and SLOWLY!!!

just a little, durring cycling some nitrite is normal, dont try to get to 0 but do try to keep it less than 1ppm


I thought the output should be zero for both and only nitrogen should be the end product.

once cycled this is 100% true, durring cycling the better goal is to make very slow changes and wait. its like a cycling fish tank, you dont want ammonia and nitrite, but you accept it when you do.


Speed up? Slow down?
very little speed up.

[DerrickBrown]

rsman, you are definately the "man". I really appreciate all the help with this. I wish we weren't on different ends of the country. I'd love to go rc'ing with ya.

I will speed up the flow some of the output. Would 2 drips/sec be acceptable or is more flow needed? I guess I can speed it up and check it frequently to make sure that no nitrates are coming through.

[rsman]

drops per 10 seconds / 10 is better 60 seconds is even better, i wouldnt go to 2 drops per second, maybee 1.5

change and wait and check is the best aproach, you should wait long enough for all of the water in the coil and bio chamber to be replaced. and longer wont hurt :D

[FireEater]

My denitrator is 24" x 4" and has two 75' tubes coiled inside it. So it has two inputs and one output. It has bio balls and pond media filter in it. It is gravity fed.

It is on a 125g tank with a 29g refugium and a 25g sump.

I started it up on 9DEC04

19DEC04
Tank water nitrates at 15 to 20ppm
Denitrator output at 15 to 20ppm

4JAN05
Tank water nitrates at 5ppm
Denitrator output at 40ppm

Is the denitrator output high due to it still cycling?

I have it set at about 1.5 drops per second.

Mark

[rsman]

what are the nitrites and are both coils working?

it sounds like you have the flow rate too high,

BUT

nitrites mess up nitrate kits, so chances are your output nitrates are low but nitrites are elevated.

its probibly still cycling so do make slow changes.

[niko5]

RSMAN, do you think its best to make a denitrator and just start it up right away and let it drip or fill it with water and add a few grains of sugar and let it sit for a month to cycle then start running water?

[rsman]

you really dont wanna let it sit, it needs to be running, your asking for 2 biological processes, and if you do the feed and idle thing you will only get 1, your coils should have aerobic bacteria on them, you wont get that.

if your looking for shortcuts there are a few, you can run it full open for a few days, then close it up for a day, run at a drip / sec for a day ..... and keep up that pattern for a week or 2, but itll only cut 2 weeks and it takes more work. I DONT RECOMEND THAT!!!

also if you have more than 1 you can daisy chain them together for a while, the bacteria will move from one to the other and speed up the cycle, I do recomend that if its available to you.

[niko5]

So whats the best drip rate to set it at for cycle then? 4 / sec or so?

[rsman]

4 / second is way to fast
for .170 it should be less than 1 to start with
for .250 it should be just over 1 to start with
for .375 it should be just over 1.5 to start with.
for .5 it should be in the 2~3 to start with

these are ESTIMATES, you have to test the output regularly to adjust the flow rate.

[saltwaterfishlover]

this is a very interesting thread....
I got a few questions now.....
I currently have a 92 corner with a 50 gal sump. If I get my way I may up it to a 240 and same sump. it is medium to high stock and feed.
would a 4" x 24" unit with 2-3 coils maybe 50-75' long be right or go with 6" x 24" with maybe 4 coils 50-75' long be the way to go? also what diam tube for the coil?
when up and running properly you dont need to test correct? and it will help starve all forms of greenish algea bad like hair and good like the macros used in sumps?
and I fly rc heli's have a jr 10x radio with a jr ergo 30 and a dnhp sr3 with a ys 80
andy

[carl0209]

bump

[km133688]

tag

[rsman]

I got a few questions now.....
sorry for the delay

I currently have a 92 corner with a 50 gal sump.
cool

If I get my way I may up it to a 240 and same sump. it is medium to high stock and feed.how??? are you assuming its a medium to high stock or do you know it is??

would a 4" x 24" unit with 2-3 coils maybe 50-75' long be right or go with 6" x 24" with maybe 4 coils 50-75' long be the way to go? 4 coils would be better. if its truely a high bioload then you might consider 1 1/2" coil bout 400' long, with 1 - 2cuft of bio balls. but find out if you need it before going that way, larger units come at a cost.

also what diam tube for the coil?
its not important. use what you can fit the coil into. [added] do attempt to use wider shorter tubes as winding the coil wider reduces resistance

when up and running properly you dont need to test correct? correct
and it will help starve all forms of greenish algea bad like hair and good like the macros used in sumps?
well yes and no. it does nothing for po4 with po4 and some algae the algae will be able to get to the nitrate that is in the water it doesnt take much. so yea itll help, and it makes the good algae work even better but dont expect overnight dead algae.

and I fly rc heli's have a jr 10x radio with a jr ergo 30 and a dnhp sr3 with a ys 80

CooL :D

tag
your it :D

[saltwaterfishlover]

ok stocking wise 1- 5" rabbit fish, 2- 4" pearly jawfish, 1 rainsford goby, 1- 4" purple firefish, 1 banicle blennie, 1-damsel (wish was evicted or dead), 1 neon cleaner gobie, pistol and cleaner shrimp, 25 mini carpet anemone's assorted corals and a sun coral, feed 1 cube frozen daily and one cube for the sun a few times a week. so what you think the 6"x24ish with 4 coils 50' or 75'. and 1 cube' balls? and how is best to feed it 1 input split to the four tubes or 4 inputs?
thanks

[rsman]

thats not exactly high bio load, really its not even close :D

as for the height get the coils wrap them around a 3-4" piece of pvc, overlap one coil onto another, build it that tall, put the 4" in the outer tube, and fill that with bio balls.

you dont need 1cu ft of bioballs just fill it "full" and itll be fine

how you split that is really up to you, i prefere to keep the spliting parts external, there a little prone to cloging.

[sevise]

My Nitrates are about 10ppm I'm looking for a way to drop that down a little more. My display tank is 120Gal and with sump and fuge the system totals around 200Gal.

Can anyone guess if the following would work. 2 or 3, 3" diam 3' long tubes w/ 75ft of 1/4 OD tubing each. My sump is in the basement so I should be able to gravity feed them. Lastly do they have to be mounted vertically or can I lay them on there sides?

[Fishguru]

sevise, get a few clams :)

[woowoodengy]

do clams reduce nitrates????

[sammydee]

I want to make one of these things for a twenty gallon nano. I don't have a sump, and I don't want the thing lower than the tank due to the chance of leaks and my whole tank draining. So..... can i make an internal one?

If I tee it off from a powerhead and use model aircraft tubing (got lots of it - I fly too) how much length would I need? It's pretty tiny diameter so maybe 30 feet would do it? And then I could have the top of the pvc tube sticking out of the top of the water and it would slowly dribble out over the sides. I thought about using an airlift but I reckon it wouldn't have enough pull to even get a couple of drips going through the thing. I would only need maybe 3gph to reduce nitrates right down.

Is it possible to do something like this?

Sam

[sammydee]

BTW I forgot to mention - I don't fly balsa planes I fly scratchbuilt planes made out of correx and PVC pipe. They're called SPADs I don't know if you recognise the name? Stands for Simple Plastic Airplane Design, they're a doddle to build, fly pretty well and are absolutely indestructible (to a point, obviously :D ). Check out the wesite: Spad To The Bone (http://www.spadtothebone.com) .

[niko5]

Bump and Im starting mine this week haha it only took me 5 months... nothing else is working so im going this way :)

[rsman]

:)

ive always liked em, especially in FO systems but there not all bad for reefs either.

let me know if u need help here or in pm.....

[mattydub]

Originally posted by rsman
:)

ive always liked em, especially in FO systems but there not all bad for reefs either.

let me know if u need help here or in pm.....

rsman...do you feel these are good to use in breeding systems as well? I'm thinking not only for adults, but fry as well...or is their bioload too much (rather too erratic= high real fast, then tapers off as they grow etc) for the coils to handle?

thnx for all your help...

[rsman]

hehehe search the breeders forum for info, but yep i like to use mine for my breeding setup

i do have a rather large one compared to my FO, but at the same time the max bioload is well MUCH higher on my breeding setup than my FO, I use one coil denitrator for both broadstock and growout.

[niko5]

You must have those things everywhere :D

Here is something I was thinking about last night...

1.) If you have 2 coils how do you adjust them both becuase you would have one output you couldnt really adjust one from the other.

2.) If you have 2 coils do they BOTH get set at like 1 drop per sec so the putput is 2 drops per sec?

[rsman]

1.) If you have 2 coils how do you adjust them both becuase you would have one output you couldnt really adjust one from the other. 2 ways , put the adjusting valve before the coils or put the adjusting valve on the output, with option 1 you can adjust each individually which is only a little better on a small coil, option two which works ok means one of the coils might not cycle at the same pace which could extend cycle time .... maybee.

2.) If you have 2 coils do they BOTH get set at like 1 drop per sec so the putput is 2 drops per sec? with 2 adjusting valves you would adjust just like with one coil, with 2 valves its a good idea to be able to either pinch off or on a large systm close an additional on/off valve that would allow you to set the timing for 1 coil at a time. with 1 adjusting valve you just add the flow rates and assume the 2 are equal, or pinch off one input to set 1 coil, then set the 2nd by adding to the flow rate of the 1st,

now when reality comes in... you wont be running your coil anywhere near 100%, and you will only need to adjust the flow rate while its cycling so as long as its consistant it all good.

[niko5]

Sounds good... I was also thinking of this...

I am going to use some needle valves for my adjustlment.. if I put 2 valves on each coil 1 valve just a cheep JG fitting valve and the other being the needle valve I could shut off one coil at the JG valve adjust the first then cut it off with the JG valve and adjust the second then when i open the valve on each they needle valves will be set. Does that make any since?

[rsman]

thats what i was refering to when i mentoned the 2 valves in #2.

in a smaller system its value is decreased, in a large system its very important especially durring times of maintenence

[cristhiam]

Are you guys still using the denitrators? this is an old thread but I'd like to see how these are working.
What would be good for a 125 with no sump about 80-90G of water. how long of a coil do I need and how tall the denitrator needs to be. I have 14 fish:
3 yellows tail damsels
cowfish,
saifing tang,
yellow watchman goby,
jawfish,
tail spot blennie,
purple pseudocromis,
starry blennie,
2 clowns,
1 black clown,
and sand perch goby

Thank you

[jamesbuf]

If anyone is still following this tread, I've got a question. Could you in theory increase the length of tubing and increase the flow and still get full denitrifying properties?

[rsman]

still using 2 of mine, tore down the breeding setup over a year ago, not using that one.

if you extend the length you have to increase the flow, extend the flow to high, or have a flow failure and your unit wont function (and could crash in a bad way)

need higher processing rate, increase the number of coils, or increase both the diameter and the length

[jamesbuf]

I already have a 24" tall, 4" diameter denitrator that I made a few years ago for my 75 gallon at the time. Now that I have a 180, I was looking to use this one instead of making a new one. It has 80 feet of tubing already inside, so I was hoping that I could just hook up another 80 feet of tubing on the outside (connected to the inflowto the denitrator) and increase the flow. By having 160 feet of tubing, I'm hoping to increase the flow and still have the water de-oxygenated by the time it hits the bioballs in the center of the pipe. My only concern is that the anaerobic bacteria will not have enough time to break down the nitrates. Having a 4" diameter, I was able to fit quite a few bioballs in there. I'm going to buy the tubing and try my experiment, and just make sure to keep track of the water quality that comes out.

[cristhiam]

Ok I finished mine two 75' coils in one unit, two inputs one out, unit 26" hight 4" wide. I just hooked it up today, running it full flow, how long before I slowed down? or should I slow it down now? and then to a 1 drip per sec.? thanks for all the help.

[rsman]

james: like all bio filters the media in the chamber will have to react to the increased input, dont double the length, go to some length that you can control pick something like 10% longer or 20% longer ... something

crishiam: you can slow it down any time you would like, it like most things has several ways of making it work, run fast, run slow its all good running fast for a while might make the cycle faster, if everything in the world is working for you that weekend

[miatawnt2b]

ok, so what happens to a coil denitrator if you loose flow for a period of time?

-J

[cristhiam]

Good question if you go back to page 1, this is what I found

as for power failures your tank will be in trouble before the denitrator, though its effectiveness will drop quickly it doesnt become "dangerous" for 4 or 5 days or more depending on volume of the bioball chamber. reverse flow wud be bad, but also not dangerous, it shouldnt be setup to return under water, it should always flow or drip from an elevated point into the water, this does a few things but first off it removes the temptation to not check up on it every now and then, it also adds o2 to the water fairly quickly the water will be trying to give off co2 and "suck" o2 in.

bypass well that depends on plumbing, check valves no they are not required and only add problems, pre filter things (whatever really) are a good thing though

[32flavors]

ok, I know this is an old thread... I am moving into a 120 and it will eventually be stocked on the heavy side, so... let me get this strait:

I want 2-3 coils of 75' ea in a 4 or 6" x 24"?

Would 2-3 coil denitrators be better than 2-3 coils in 1?

With flow control on each input line or just on the 1 effluent?

Also, I really like the idea of using a coarse grade aragonite to help with pH issues, should I use it alone or with bioballs?

Thanks all!!

[rsman]

Good question if you go back to page 1, this is what I found

as for power failures your tank will be in trouble before the denitrator

freeky, I read that thinking ...do i remember this... go back to the page and Id hope I did know that. OOH well its all good.

ok, I know this is an old thread... I am moving into a 120 and it will eventually be stocked on the heavy side, so... let me get this strait: sounds like a plan to me

I want 2-3 coils of 75' ea in a 4 or 6" x 24"?
.... I remember this also

use the smallest setup you can fit the tubes into.... those sizes are to big.

Would 2-3 coil denitrators be better than 2-3 coils in 1? no 1 is better

With flow control on each input line or just on the 1 effluent? whichever it only effects how you cycle the unit. put a on/off (ball valve or other) on both input lines and output lines it makes maintaining the unit easier as time goes on.

Also, I really like the idea of using a coarse grade aragonite to help with pH issues, should I use it alone or with bioballs? re read the thread use your aragonite elseware and use bioballs here.

[wooden_reefer]

I have often wondered how the gaseous nitrogen, the product of denitrification, leave the denitrification coil?

It seems that any N2 gas has to leave from the outlet.

[rsman]

the coil isnt used for denitrification, but most leaves the exit port, saturated in the water, over a long period of time a bubble can form at the top of the chamber, a exit port high up on the chamber keeps everything in check. one of many reasons to put the output out of the water to drip into the water.

[s a v v o]

An inquiry from Oz.

I've just discovered this site, having also just read Don Carner's articles. I've read the whole thread. I have a 150-gallon system, with a small fish load and a heavy coral load.

I'm intending to build a unit that is about 40 inches high and a diameter of four inches. I intend to wind the coil around an inner tube about 3 inches dia. This will fit inside the larger chamber, and the end of the coil will discharge inside the inner chamber containing the media.

I'm a little confused about the internal diameter of the coil tube and its length . Don recommends one-quarter of an inch to three-eights of an inch ID.

If I use one-quarter inch ID, how long should the coil be?

How long should it be if it's three-eights inch ID?

I'm happy to make it as long as necessary to ensure the water entering the media is oxygen-free. I'll be able to continue to coil the tube, as it will fit inside the void between the inner and outer chambers.

Hope you can advise me.

Les, Marine Society of Queensland
Brisbane
Australia

[rsman]

Hope you can advise me. ok but you asked for it!!

when it comes to nitrate there is no such thing as a "heavy coral load" and a single denitrator with a 1/4"OD tube aprox 50' long in a 14" tall 2" diameter tube will do just fine on a 150gal system (this does assume tank + sump = 150g)

[s a v v o]

Thanks for your prompt reply.

Les

[kau_cinta_ku]

so will mine work fine? so far only been hooked up for almost 2 weeks and no change but i am guessing it will start in around a month. i have a 30" tall 4" od PVC pipe with 100 feet of 1/4" tubing running on the outside, filled completly with bioballs on the inside. my tank is 75 gal. with a 30 gal sump/fuge. here is a pic.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/kau_cinta_ku/CIMG2028.jpg

[s a v v o]

Sam, is your tubing 1/4 inch OD or ID? If it's OD, what is the ID? The tube I'm thinking of using is black garden sprinkler material (I think it may be polypropylene), with an OD of about 1/4 inch but only about 5/32 inch (4mm) ID.

One other question: I have a bag of coral rubble, ranging between pea size and pieces about one inch long and 1/4 inch thick. I can easily go out and buy plastic media, but I'm wondering if one may be more effective

Les

[rsman]

kau_cinta_ku:
so will mine work fine? it will work, it might take longer to cycle, but it will work just fine.

so far only been hooked up for almost 2 weeks and no change whats that mean ??? how fast is the flow, nitrates? nitrites? ammonia? pH?

i have a 30" tall 4" od PVC pipe with 100 feet of 1/4" tubing running on the outside, filled completly with bioballs on the inside. my tank is 75 gal. with a 30 gal sump/fuge. here is a pic. thats too long a tube and too large a bio chamber so expect a slow start. and the possibility of low but varrying nitrate levels

s a v v o:
The tube I'm thinking of using is black garden sprinkler materialthat stuff works just make sure you dont kink it, icemaker tubing resists kinks better just make sure you dont get any with holes in it :D some of these are designed to perspire or ?? with micro holes every however far apart.

One other question: I have a bag of coral rubble, ranging between pea size and pieces about one inch long and 1/4 inch thick. I can easily go out and buy plastic media, but I'm wondering if one may be more effective if you dont wanna buy stuff put the coil in the bio chamber and fill the rest with 1" lengths of 1/2" pvc you dont wanna use coral rubble you dont want the most effecient, it doesnt take that, you only want to slow the water flow across some media down. not stop it

[s a v v o]

rsman, thanks for that.

I've been through the thread again, and I can't understand why the coil can be too long or why there can be too much media in the chamber -- in other words, how can a denitrator be too big?

This is how I see it, and you can correct me so I understand. If there's something I should read, maybe you could point me in that direction. Please bear with me.

1. The coil tube receives water rich in O2 from the pump.
2. As bacteria colonise the tube, you have aerobics oxidising the organics and producing ammonia, nitrate and nitrate.
3. As long as oxygen lasts, oxidation will occur. The slow progress of the water ensures maximum contact time.
4. The aerobics will colonise as far along the tube as oxygen lasts.
5. When oxygen runs out, anaerobes start colonising the inside of the tube.
6. So part of the tube will be aerobic and part anaerobic.
7. When the water reaches the anaerobics in the tube, denitrification commences.
8. When the water leaves the bottom of the coil, it passes through the media in the chamber with a reduced amount of nitrate.
9. Whatever nitrate is left is then processed by the anaerobes living on the media.

So if a coil is 50 feet long and (just to pick a figure) the first 30 feet of it are aerobic, the last 20 feet are anaerobic. I'm not able to understand why another 50 feet of coil is a problem, as it too would be populated by anaerobes. Aerobic oxidation would be completed in the first 30 feet of the coil, and anaerobic denitrification will occur in the remaining 70 feet of the tube. I would have thought this would be a good thing.

If the chamber contains (say) one quart of media, the anaerobes here will process whatever nitrate is available. If you double or triple the amount of media, you are still treating the same amount of nitrate. The same number of bacteria will be present in the two or three quarts as there would be if you had only one quart (only enough bacteria will form according to the amount of nutrient).

I can understand that having a coil longer than necessary and more media than needed may be a waste of materials, but I can't imagine why it's not a good thing. I would have thought that the extra coil and media would provide extra capacity for more bacteria in case the system ever needs to process more than expected.

This is all based on an identical flow through the chamber irrespective of size.

That's why I planned to build a denitrator bigger than I really need -- a bit like having a skimmer bigger than needed in case something goes wrong, or having an extra heater in the tank in case of extra-cold weather or a failure of a heater.

Sorry for rambling on so much, but I needed to explain how I think (which is probably simplistic). You seem to be very knowledgable and I've no doubt you've got good reasons for your comments. I'm not challenging what you say. I'm the kind of person who likes to know why I'm doing what I'm doing.

As I said, if there's something I need to read, I'd like to do that. If you feel up to explaining this to me, I'd very much appreciate it.
Many thanks.

Les

[kau_cinta_ku]

the tubing i used is 250 O.D. x .170 I.D here is the link http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100057801

as for no change i ment there is not nitrites and no ammonia, but still 40ppm (same as tank) of nitrates comming from it. haven't checked the pH comming from it yet. the flow comming out of the tubing is a fast drip just slower than a stream but still a drip.

i also don't understand why the coil can be too long or why there can be too much media in the chamber -- in other words, how can a denitrator be too big?

why would i get the possibility of low but varrying nitrate levels and not completly all 0?

thanks for the help so far. i have just been battling nitrates for so long i don't know what else to do. lol

[s a v v o]

Thanks, Sam.

Les

[cpl40475]

OK ive been reading this and seriously thinking about building one. My tank is a 75 gallon close to 90lbs live rock
a few diff types sps and lps corals 3 false percula clowns 2 3 stipe damsel and a yellowtail damsel. A D&D typhoon skimmer (im about ready to trash). 3 200gph powerheads and a emporer 400 hob filter. will the denitrator you described on page one work well with my system and what size pump do i need to put inline and what be be my best spot to have the water return into the tank at the emporer440?

[rsman]

here is a start ill come back later to answer more


I've been through the thread again,
kewl big post :D I am not going to reread this thread or search for all the denitrator threads or anything like that, but if someone were! maybe this this stuff might not need to be restated ??? wanna volunteer??? also i cut out some of the repetitive stuff.

and I can't understand why the coil can be too long or why there can be too much media in the chamber -- in other words, how can a denitrator be too big? your not building a denitrator thats too big, your building one thats off sized, its like taking a 6' tall 12" diameter skimmer and powering it with a rio-600 and complaining that "i have a huge skimmer" and "it isnt working" however yes you can have one thats too big, ill see if i can explain better in the following

This is how I see it, and you can correct me so I understand. If there's something I should read, maybe you could point me in that direction. Please bear with me. I have no problems responding but understand the "breeder on vacation" is serious I no longer work with fish, i keep 2 tanks! so when I have to look thru things it just takes me longer to respond, but im more than happy to respond. for reference there are other denitrator threads id suggest the breeding forum first as thats where i was usually hanging but .... better places to look for information on these if your so inclined (crazy) is the university libraries in the waste management stuff, these were a way of dealing with nitrate on a seriously HUGE scale compared to what were doing.

1. The coil tube receives water rich in O2 from the pump. dont forget gravity can work for these smaller units
2. As bacteria colonise the tube, you have aerobics oxidising the organics and producing ammonia, nitrate and nitrate.yes but as long as there is nitrite and ammonia denitrification is slowed even paused
3. The slow progress of the water ensures maximum contact time.this is NOT a slow process, water flow along the surface of your coil should be moving FAST!!! the length allows the water at the center of the coil to equlize with the water on the surface of the coil, a smaller diameter coil would need a significantly shorter length, but would be more prone to cloging, and at the other end a larger diameter coil needs a significantly longer length
4. The aerobics will colonise as far along the tube as oxygen lasts. with luck the aerobic bacteria will colonise the entire tube, but for the most part, the problem is that length is not fixed, it changes as your tank changes
5. When oxygen runs out, anaerobes start colonising the inside of the tube. start yes but not fully colonise the anerobic bacteria dont like the high flow rates, they are not as ?sticky? and anerobic respiration takes more time, and effort and the start of the anoxic zone in the tube changes rapidly and frequently, this creates a middle wasted area one reason those w/o the chamber need significantly longer runs or much lower flow in a perfect world the end of that wasted area would be the end of the coil!
6. So part of the tube will be aerobic and part anaerobic.if the tube maintians an anoxic zone you will have more problems than not. see #5. the job of a coil in a coil denitrator with a bio chamber is to remove the oxygen only, this creates a stable filter
8. When the water leaves the bottom of the coil, it passes through the media in the chamber with a reduced amount of nitrate. actually an increased amount of nitrate there was a high cost to supplying the coil which consumed the oxygen, that cost is more nitrate. one reason some people will see an increased nitrate level out of the coil durring cycling.
9. Whatever nitrate is left is then processed by the anaerobes living on the media. and as long as there is nitrate in the anoxic water there will be denitrification and no penilty, once you have used the nitrate more media means bacteria need to consume something else and thats bad


If the chamber contains (say) one quart of media, the anaerobes here will process whatever nitrate is available. and then what something has to happen next.... the possible results are 1. an unstable denitrator 2. hydrogen sulfate gas because the bacteria ate something other than nitrate 3. a denitrifier that doesnt remove as much nitrate as it adds.


If you double or triple the amount of media, you are still treating the same amount of nitrate. true a fully functioning unit will have 0 nitrate in the output regardless of the nitrate level on the input

BUT

The same number of bacteria will be present false nitrate is not the only thing these bacteria can process, nitrate is what we want them processing

only enough bacteria will form according to the amount of nutrient nitrate isnt used in this process as food, and they can use things in the water other than nitrate, things we cant/dont want to remove.

I can understand that having a coil longer than necessary and more media than needed may be a waste of materials,
the cost of material is so low that i never even think of it

That's why I planned to build a denitrator bigger than I really need -- a bit like having a skimmer bigger than needed in case something goes wrong, or having an extra heater in the tank in case of extra-cold weather or a failure of a heater. if you want bigger have more coils not a longer coil or larger chamber.

Sorry for rambling on so much, but I needed to explain how I think (which is probably simplistic). You seem to be very knowledgable and I've no doubt you've got good reasons for your comments. I'm not challenging what you say. I'm the kind of person who likes to know why I'm doing what I'm doing.i dont mind rambling and its not an uncommon line of thinking its just wrong .... I really did drop out of fish keeping i have 1 planted FW tank and 1 almost a reef, both have coil denitrators but neither have been getting much attention so its probibly safer to say i was knowledgable im just too busy/lazy to remove myself from RC so i get reminders, PM's and emails .... I didnt preceve it as a challange but if you know something ive forgotten have at it if you want, but it wont be much fun, ive forgoten more than i ever wanted to know about these.

[s a v v o]

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Les

[rsman]

as for no change i ment there is not nitrites and no ammonia, but still 40ppm (same as tank) of nitrates comming from it. haven't checked the pH comming from it yet. the flow comming out of the tubing is a fast drip just slower than a stream but still a drip. you might wanna post what you have done, but it sounds way to fast of a flow to me.

i also don't understand why the coil can be too long or why there can be too much media in the chamber -- in other words, how can a denitrator be too big? in case i didnt clear it up, its not bigger, bigger would be larger everything not just more media or longer coils.

why would i get the possibility of low but varrying nitrate levels and not completly all 0? the extra media can create more nitrate and some nitrite(easilly processed by tank filtration) than the entire unit consumes at times.. creating a varrying nitrate level, and the difficulty keeping the flow right will cause the non 0 levels. this doesnt need to be taken any further than that, it doesnt need rebuilding itll work, but as b4 longer cycle, varrying nitrate levels, and non 0 numbers. NOT a big deal!!!

i don't know what else to do make sure your cycling it correctly, then WAIT :D

[s a v v o]

rsman, now you've REALLY got me confused!

I wrote: The slow progress of the water ensures maximum contact time.

You wrote: this is NOT a slow process, water flow along the surface of your coil should be moving FAST!!!

Sam wrote: the flow comming out of the tubing is a fast drip just slower than a stream but still a drip.

You wrote: It sounds way to fast of a flow to me.

Would you mind explaining this, please?

Thanks.

Les

[32flavors]

i also don't understand why the coil can be too long or why there can be too much media in the chamber -- in other words, how can a denitrator be too big? in case i didnt clear it up, its not bigger, bigger would be larger everything not just more media or longer coils.

Okay, so if the coil being longer (and why is that bad) and there's more media (which implies a larger / bigger unit in order to facilitate the increased capacity) what WOULD make the thing BIGGER?

I mean, most of use larger capaity units than we need to increase processing, etc... so why is an overall larger unit not better?

What size / configuration unit would you recommend for a 300 gallon system?

Also, how do you get nitrite and nitrate production in a zero oxygen environment?

Sorry.... I'm just confused. :D

[rsman]

rsman, now you've REALLY got me confused! nothing new there :D


I wrote: The slow progress of the water ensures maximum contact time.

You wrote: this is NOT a slow process, water flow along the surface of your coil should be moving FAST!!!

Sam wrote: the flow comming out of the tubing is a fast drip just slower than a stream but still a drip.

You wrote: It sounds way to fast of a flow to me.

Would you mind explaining this, please?
its actually very simple

when i was responding to you, i was responding to a specific question about how the coil portion of the unit works, water flow across the surface of the coil needs to be fast, in contrast water flow across the media in the bio chamber needs to be slow.

but

when i was responding to sam, he has a cycling unit, when you start these off you have to start with a very slow flow and build up to a faster flow, he is not there yet. (i dont think he needs to adjust, test, respond to be sure)

[rsman]

Okay, so if the coil being longer (and why is that bad) and there's more media (which implies a larger / bigger unit in order to facilitate the increased capacity) what WOULD make the thing BIGGER?

I mean, most of use larger capaity units than we need to increase processing, etc... so why is an overall larger unit not better?

I think ive answered this a few different ways now, but lets try another, you cant buy a stock ford ranger, and only put a bumper on it that will tow a 60,000lb trailer and say the ranger can pull a 60,000lb trailer that puny engine wont do it, the breaks wont do it, the transmition wont do it, it just wont work.

no one here in the last 3 pages has suggested building an overall larger unit, they keep thinking that extending the coil length alone is somehow better, ITS NOT also they keep making these huge bio chambers as if thats going to make it process more... it WONT a properly working and cycled unit removes all nitrate AFTER giving to any abrupt changes this is still a bio filter increasing the size of 1 part isnt going to make it better.

What size / configuration unit would you recommend for a 300 gallon system? kinda depends on the load, but you have choices, increase the ENTIRE size of the coil (not easy to do) or add more coils, for anything but HIGH bio load the easiest approach is to just add 2 or 3 coils to the same units. i know there is a simple table somewhere but 1/4"OD icemaker tubing is good between something like 50 and 75 feet, but 1/2"ID tubing needs to be over 250 feet to be opened up to anything making 1/2" tubing worth it and that is a LOT of tubing and a HIGH flow more than 300gph (for reference there is cheap 1/2" irrigation tubing available and its what ive used on breeding setups)

Also, how do you get nitrite and nitrate production in a zero oxygen environment? chemically ask a chemist i dont wanna dig thru papers to pull out the stuff. nitrate is produced in the coils as the oxygen is removed this is normal, however also normal is that the bio chamber has built up enought to process nitrate the increase from the coil is completely consumed. the nitrite is produced in 2 places normally in the coil, as those things that breethe oxygen are at work it can get thru the unit while cycling, and in the bio chamber when the bacteria in the chamber die.

Sorry.... I'm just confused. :D if your still confused please speak up

[s a v v o]

OK, thanks, rsman.

I wrote . . . The slow progress of the water ensures maximum contact time.

You wrote . . . this is NOT a slow process, water flow along the surface of your coil should be moving FAST!!!

Later you wrote . . . When i was responding to you, i was responding to a specific question about how the coil portion of the unit works, water flow across the surface of the coil needs to be fast, in contrast water flow across the media in the bio chamber needs to be slow.

Sam wrote . . . the flow comming out of the tubing is a fast drip just slower than a stream but still a drip.

You wrote . . . It sounds way to fast of a flow to me.

You then wrote . . . When i was responding to sam, he has a cycling unit, when you start these off you have to start with a very slow flow and build up to a faster flow, he is not there yet. (i dont think he needs to adjust, test, respond to be sure)

So we’ve got these statements from you . . . water flow along the surface of your coil should be moving fast . . . water flow across the surface of the coil needs to be fast . . . when you start these off you have to start with a very slow flow and build up to a faster flow.

From what you said to Sam about his being too fast, it seems to mean when I start up the system to cycle it, it needs to be ‘slow’ and then when the system has finished cycling I need to increase the flow to ‘fast’.

Can we define ‘SLOW’ and ‘FAST’? They mean different things to different people. Let’s base it on your suggested size: a coil of 50 feet, ¼-inch OD, a chamber 14 inches long and two inches in diameter.

To start the system off, would ‘SLOW' mean one drop per second, or one drop every two seconds, or whatever?
Sam’s rate is ‘A FAST DRIP, JUST SLOWER THAN A STREAM, BUT STILL A DRIP’. Is that FAST enough when the system is cycled and fully functioning?

Thanks.

Les

[rsman]

I really shouldnt be responding late at night, but life is worth living dangerously

I am fairly sure cycling is covered in this thread ill check tomorrow

So we’ve got these statements from you . . . water flow along the surface of your coil should be moving fast . . . water flow across the surface of the coil needs to be fast . . . when you start these off you have to start with a very slow flow and build up to a faster flow. yea flow thru coil needs to be fast more importantly when designing your unit it needs to be designed so it can be moving fast.

From what you said to Sam about his being too fast, it seems to mean when I start up the system to cycle it, it needs to be ‘slow’ and then when the system has finished cycling I need to increase the flow to ‘fast’. this is also correct, and cautiously as i dont wanna overly complicate it for anyone i think there was some findings that if you ran it full open for a few days to get all the air out and start getting bacteria started you *might* get a faster cycle, either way they were talking a few days, if memory serves you might find that in this thread or in one of the links. BUT cycling needs slower flow.

Can we define ‘SLOW’ and ‘FAST’? They mean different things to different people. Let’s base it on your suggested size lets not confuse this, sams unit isnt my suggested size, and im not suggesting a size as much as a ratio of coil diameter, length and bio chamber size, given the tank size posted. and 'SLOW' and 'FAST' have been defined they are defined by sam saying he has no ammonia, no nitrite and nitrate levels identical to the tank, if the water was slow enough durring cycling he should be seeing at least some nitrite(sam i hope your a HE) the size of the coil has no impact here, even that he built it too long, at this step he should be seeing nitrite, you get nitrite by slowing it down. there by its going to fast. this speed is just like cycling a fish tank, if it takes me 3 weeks and you 6 does that mean you did something wrong? usually not, this is a bio filter, it has to cycle.

To start the system off, would ‘SLOW' mean one drop per second, or one drop every two seconds, or whatever? there was a commercial unit available (i think it still is) that used the 50' 1/4"OD tubing its directions called for aprox 1/4 cup per minute either way get it going slow and TEST it

Sam’s rate is ‘A FAST DRIP, JUST SLOWER THAN A STREAM, BUT STILL A DRIP’. Is that FAST enough when the system is cycled and fully functioning? no when sam's is cycled it should be going fast remember its a long coil.... and sam is going to have to make up for it. a 1/4"OD 50' coil should have a very steady stream in the output nothing you could consider slower than a stream it shoots out aprox 6~8" out of a horizontal tube as for how fast on sams id have to dig up stuff and think, clearly thats not going to happen tonight!!!

[s a v v o]

Thanks for taking all this time and effort to respond to my inquiries.

Best regards.

Les

[kau_cinta_ku]

ok so what if i just shrunk mine down to 14" or so and run only 50' of tubing but still leave the 4" diameter PVC would that work better or do I have to go to 2" PVC

thanks so much for all your help.

[rsman]

ok so what if i just shrunk mine down to 14" or so and run only 50' of tubing but still leave the 4" diameter PVC would that work better or do I have to go to 2" PVC

Im sorry this part of this thread is actually 2 seperate parts here, you have one working, and les is designing one

I thought i made it clear, I wouldnt change what you have. its not worth the little effort it would take, and all you would have to do is cut your coil in half ish. w/o cutting down the chamber id go for the 60' instead of 50' but either way i still wouldnt take the time. plus any length of cycling would probibly be offset as your already 2 weeks in, and you would have to start over completely

you have 100g of water you will get a nice turnover with this unit

the longer coil is a little bit of a pain, and it means that the denitrator is going to run differently, but you still have to test just like everyone else. you used bio balls not gravel/rock so you wont get any stagnent areas in the bio chamber IF you are going to build one again, dont build it that way, having a higher flow isnt bad, and 'slow' and 'fast' are still based on the test kits

[rsman]

Sorry you got missed if i do it agian yell at me

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10381767#post10381767 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cpl40475
OK ive been reading this and seriously thinking about building one. My tank is a 75 gallon close to 90lbs live rock
a few diff types sps and lps corals 3 false percula clowns 2 3 stipe damsel and a yellowtail damsel. A D&D typhoon skimmer (im about ready to trash). 3 200gph powerheads and a emporer 400 hob filter. will the denitrator you described on page one work well with my system and what size pump do i need to put inline and what be be my best spot to have the water return into the tank at the emporer440?

its never best to put the output straight into another bio filter, a skimmer yes, but even better is someplace out of water where it can freefall into the tank or ?sump? if you have one, assuming you dont. these units dont work magic, and are not self cleaning of clogs letting it freefall means you will notice if it clogs, and blows off co2

any single coil unit will work nicely on a 75g tank, and you can T off any of those 200gph pumps nicely use the long leg of the T as the output and either end as the pump/coil will give a good push.

[rsman]

IN my defence for this mishap Id like to note I did mention that I havent been doing this lately, and its cearly on the first page of this thread

I missed a very important reason not to go insane building a bio chamber thats huge. building one just large enough means you have some extra space in the event of a clog or power failure. if water stops you get hydrogen sulfate and that will do very bad things to your tank, especially if that tank is already hurting from an extended power failure. I still feel Sam is OK without cutting down his unit, but this is another reason you dont want to be expanding on the size of things without a CLEAR understanding of whats going on. this is something I knew! and have forgoten!

hope this doesnt overly complicate anything

[32flavors]

Last quest, hopefully... On the first page you mention a couple of things...

1.) Having the effluent drip back into the sump--rather than the return being under water--prevents hydrogen sulfate? If not, what bad thing are you preventing (assuming the purpose for this also has to do with back flow in even of power failure)?

2.) If you use smaller diam tubing, then you need a shorter run--am I understanding that correctly?

3.) Your model for your 125 FOWLR tank is perfect for me.... would you do anything differently on it if you could, in terms of specs?

4.) For a 30 gal sheavily stocked ystem, what size chamber, tubing diam and run would you recommend?

5.) How long after initial TANK set-up do you recommend installation of one of these, or does it matter at all?

6.) What's the best way to tap/drain any gas build up in the top of the chamber--another hole with a ball valve?

Along with everyone else, THANKS AGAIN for all your patience and continued input!!

Cheree

[32flavors]

Sorry, couple more questions....

7.) On your 3-line unit, is the overall flow (after cycling) faster since you have 3 inputs, the same as if there were 1 or.....?

8.) What is the target effluent rate after cycling (yes, I know testing will determine exact final rate, but perhaps a place to start)?

9.) Does efluent need to be dripped over carbon, as with sulfur denitrators (yes, I know I'll probably take a hit for that one, but better safe than sorry right)?

Thanks Again!!!!!!

[willhoward]

I'm gonna come with a whole different question:
I understand the concept, the theories, the fast flow through the coils, the slow flow through the bio materia, and even the "bigger isn't necessarily better".

But what I DON'T understand is how you can design it to have a fast flow-in rate, and a slow flow-out rate? This is a sealed unit right? So if you put say 100gph flow rate into the unit, it seems logic to me that you will get an output flow rate of 100gph out of the unit? Did I miss something along the line?

[32flavors]

Excellent question :)

[rsman]

But what I DON'T understand is how you can design it to have a fast flow-in rate, and a slow flow-out rate?
you cant!

the flow-out rate is identical to the flow in rate

This is a sealed unit right? So if you put say 100gph flow rate into the unit, it seems logic to me that you will get an output flow rate of 100gph out of the unit? Did I miss something along the line?

yep u missed something

think of 2 wheels going the same 60mph down the road, if one is 8" diameter its going to be spinning faster (1267 rpm ) and the other if it is 40" it will be spinning slower (50 rpm) the rpm part asssumes im doing the math right but ....

the volume of the coil is only a fraction of the volume of the unit water flows the same rate thru the entire unit, it flows faster thru the coils and slower thru the bio chamber.


LMK if you didnt get that!!!

[rsman]

Last quest, hopefully... On the first page you mention a couple of things...
keep asking, otherwise ill forget everything, who am I?

1.) Having the effluent drip back into the sump--rather than the return being under water--prevents hydrogen sulfate? If not, what bad thing are you preventing (assuming the purpose for this also has to do with back flow in even of power failure)?
i think you got that wrong, or sorta. having it out of the water does not directly prevent hydrogen sulfate, except that it causes you to notice the unit is functioning, and when it stops (clogs or whatever) you will notice. it also does help to add oxygen and blow off gasses.

2.) If you use smaller diam tubing, then you need a shorter run--am I understanding that correctly? there is a point of no return, and too small clogs easily been there done that .... its not fun to be decloging these daily because you had to build the smallest unit you could for a 7gal allglass bowfront. however YES

3.) Your model for your 125 FOWLR tank is perfect for me.... would you do anything differently on it if you could, in terms of specs? its been over a year sense i touched it last, so id say nope wouldnt change a thing.

4.) For a 30 gal sheavily stocked ystem, what size chamber, tubing diam and run would you recommend? if its way way heavily stocked you know like 400 clown fish, then add 1 or 2 coils to the 50' units.

5.) How long after initial TANK set-up do you recommend installation of one of these, or does it matter at all? if you dont have nitrate it wont cycle but you can set it up right away, and it will cycle once you do have nitrate, there is no harm running them early, and it will partially cycle as your tank does.

6.) What's the best way to tap/drain any gas build up in the top of the chamber--another hole with a ball valve? best is just to ignore it. the output should be high up in the chamber and thats good enough.

7.) On your 3-line unit, is the overall flow (after cycling) faster since you have 3 inputs, the same as if there were 1 or.....? each coil will output aprox the same amount on the same fish tank, the entire units output is the sum of the 3 coils and each coil adds to the amount processed per hour. more coils = bigger UNIT

8.) What is the target effluent rate after cycling (yes, I know testing will determine exact final rate, but perhaps a place to start)? 2~8gph per 1/4"OD 50' long coil +/- depends on how its hooked up also bigger coil = higher flow rate, pumped input = higher flow rate ....

9.) Does efluent need to be dripped over carbon, as with sulfur denitrators (yes, I know I'll probably take a hit for that one, but better safe than sorry right)? doesnt need to be, i cant recall any reasons specifically NOT to.

[ReefKeeper69!]

Slightly off-topic... Sulphur-based (LSM) Denitrator...

I had long thought I might like to build a coil denitrator, but the current method under research is using an anaeorbic bacteria colonizing a sulfur-based media... CaribSea's LSM. Since the output is somewhat acidic, that is followed up by an arrogonite media chamber. This forms the basis a nitrate reactor, to consume nitrates in a similar fashion to the coil denitrator, and add CA as well. Still need to add buffer, but it may offer higher capacity than the traditional coil denitrator.

I haven't seen too many designs for these devices yet, but it's essentially a ganged fluidized bed, or slow-flow media chambers in series with one another... LSM feeds the aragonite chamber. You could use a pair of phophate reactors, potentially, to get the job done. This appeals to me more than the coil denitrator method...

Just thought I'd stir the sump some!

[willhoward]

Thanx rsman, that what I thought too, just wanted to make sure :)

[hal9000a]

i was thinking about building one for my 55 gal
3" X 20" with 2 coil .170 ID , 1/4" OD tubing 50' long
input/output tubing 1/4 ID
i don't have a sump so it will need a pump to push the water
is this pump too fast : Maxi-Jet MP 400 (106 gph)
i dont want to blow my tubing, am i crazy to do it that way ?

| | <-- input from pump
| |
|++++|| <-- valve
| |
| |
______| |______
| ______________ | <-- "T" with adapor to coil tubing
| | _______| |_____
| | | _____| |_____ <-- output to tank
| | _| |_ | |
| | | | | |
___| |___| |___| |___
| |
| |
|.. ... ... ... ... ...|
| coil denitrator |
|.. ... ... ... ... ...|
| |
|______________________|

[timrandlerv10]

...ok, stupid question:

what kind of pump attaches to two .170 tubes on the input, and is variable from one drop a second (DURING CYCLE) and then full power (and how much should this be? after cycle...)?

i'm at 20ppm, and i would like to be closer to 5...

thanks.

tim

[hal9000a]

google "Mini-Jet aquarium pump MN404"
the slowest that i found

[rsman]

you dont put the entire output of the pump down the coil read back i think there are pictures, but a simple T will do fine, especially if the long leg of the T is not hooked to anything

depending on what pump you have you may need to adjust the output at the long end of the T(using above setup) so more or less is pushed into the coil, but use a valve on the output to adjust the final drip rate.

[timrandlerv10]

ok. makes sense.

so cycle flow is 1 drip/second, and full flow is...well, whatever gets me 0/0/0 amm/ites/ates?

[hal9000a]

thanks rsman, it's easyer that way
:D

[rsman]

so cycle flow is 1 drip/second

its just a starting point, for .170 coil, you can do slower, you can do faster, but you will have to adjust it, or wait.

and full flow is...well, whatever gets me 0/0/0 amm/ites/ates? EXACTLY

[kysard1]

So where does the Nitrogen gas come out of this unit ? Do you see it bubbling out the output?

[rsman]

So where does the Nitrogen gas come out of this unit ?
hopefully out of the output, if it came out the in, that would just be funky :D

Do you see it bubbling out the output?
the thing that needs to be understood is these dont just kick on and wipe out all nitrates. generally you wont see bubbles, but the top of the chamber will collect gases

[sevise]

Has anyone ever tried using LR rubble instead of Bioballs?

[32flavors]

Yes, I asked that a few pages back, and was told that unlike a Sulfur denitrator, which needs a pH correcting factor--bioballs are best for coil denitrators ;)

[slandis3]

what would be a good size for a 400g system?

[rsman]

32flavors: Thanks

slandis3: your going to need to provide much more information than that, how fast do your nitrates rise, what do you want them to be, what space requirements exist. and anything else important

[slandis3]

nitrates stay around 40 all the time. I want to get them as low as posible. Pretty much unlimited room. Its a reef system.im not sure what else you need. I have some 6" pvc laying around if that would work.

[rsman]

an hour before your routine water change what are the nitrates?
an hour after your routine water change what are the nitrates?
how much water do you change?

[slandis3]

i will check tomorrow. I am going to change water then

[rsman]

slandis3: one more Q b4 you post how long between water changes?

[slandis3]

usually 30 days. I got called into work so i didnt have time to do one today. My water changes are so far apart because I work so much. Thats why i want to build on of these.

[Alaska_Phil]

Ok, after reading through this thread twice I think I'm ready to build mine. It's for a 50 gal reef with moderate bio load and no sump, no deep sand bed. So sounds like I need 50' to 60' of 1/4"OD coil, in about 18" of 3" PVC with bio balls to fill it.
Sound about right?

Phil

[mwood]

This thread still open, it's an old one? :D


I have a 300+ gallon system I'm considering a denitrator for. I currently have my trats down to 40 with a 32gallon bucket DSB. I have 4" and 6" PVC in the guarge I'd like to use. Would a 24" tall 4" unit with 3 50' runs of .170 stuff be well balanced? With a 300 gallon system I'm temped to go bigger but I hear you saying to balance the unit.

How about 4 runs and a 36" unit?

[32flavors]

I'm not sure but that size is usually recommended for 100-125 gallon systems. It is balanced though. Maybe use more than 1?

[rsman]

been away lets see what i can still remember:

slandis3: did you still wanna build one, what were your numbers?

mwood:
24"x4" with 3 50' runs sounds like a great starting point, but 4 or 6 runs wont be too much for a 24"X4" unit.

ive always pushed adding coils vs using 2 denitrators, there is no requirement that any of the coils be INSIDE the chamber while they do add surface area basically for free. you can put the coils outside this lets you expand the system as needed, so build small and upgrade

[InADream]

Hey Rsman could you go over the procedure for adjusting the drip rate... I have a 18" x 3" PVC with 50' of coils, I just built it and need the instructions to adjusting the rate and how long till you run it full speed

Thanks

Dream

[mwood]

Should I be monitoring nitrates and nitrites of water output during cycling? I'm only about 2 weeks into cycling and assume the speed up slow down recommendation is for post cycle.

[t-bone2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11131592#post11131592 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwood
Should I be monitoring nitrates and nitrites of water output during cycling? I'm only about 2 weeks into cycling and assume the speed up slow down recommendation is for post cycle. I would monitor both producing nitrites speed up slowly nitrates slow down slowy no matter if its breakin or broken in

[cb747]

Hey all i have a question. Im making my own coil reactor. Its a 4 foot section of 4 inch PVC. I was going to cut it down but now im thinking. If i run 120 feet of .170 ID diameter hose into the reactor and then fill the reactor up with bio balls would i be able to increase my flow thru it as opposed to cutting it down to 36 inches high with 100 feet of the same tubing with approx 1 gallon of bio balls? Thanks for the advice :)
My tank volume is approx 200 gallons give or take a little. High bio load as well.

[rsman]

Ok Im back. just a note as stated before, I am out of the fish breeding business so I will respond on here when I have time PM or E-Mail me if you need a faster response. also for those that read the entire thread some of these responses have been dummed down to see if it helps.


Hey Rsman could you go over the procedure for adjusting the drip rate... I have a 18" x 3" PVC with 50' of coils, I just built it and need the instructions to adjusting the rate and how long till you run it full speed
the process is the same for any amount of coils and of any size

1)run them until there is no air in the coils and chamber Id hesitate to put a minimum time frame on it but I would time how long it takes from when you hook it up until when water flows out the output, then run it full open for that much longer. while waiting it might help to turn your unit upside down shake it around and whatever you can to get all the air out. no need to get blazing acuracy here just get the air out. plus if you break it here its better as you will be sitting in front of the unit.

2) close down the valve(s) you used until no water flows

3) open up the first valve run it as slow as you can time how long it takes to fill an 8oz cup to exactly 8oz. let it run like that for an hour and time it again, if it slowed down then speed up the flow a notch do #3 until it doesnt slow down after an hour

4) if you have more than 1 coil goto #3 for each coil

5) let the unit run for 3~5 days or so

6) test nitrite/nitrate

7) if there is no nitrite go back to step #2

8) if there is a little nitrite (less than 1ppm or so) and there is nitrate go back to step #5

9) if there is a lot of nitrite ( greater than 1ppm or so) and there is nitrate speed up the flow a little bit then goto #5

10) if there is a lot of nitrite and no nitrate speed up the flow significantly then go back to #5

11) if there is no nitrite and no nitrate open up the flow completely and goto step 5

then as a suppliment if you have been thru the loop for a few weeks and your still not increasing flow restart the unit, going back to step #2


Should I be monitoring nitrates and nitrites of water output during cycling? I'm only about 2 weeks into cycling and assume the speed up slow down recommendation is for post cycle.[b] NO, the speedup slow down is NOT for post cycle, post cycle you should be leaving these things alone just verify there not cloged and dont touch it.

[b]I would monitor both producing nitrites speed up slowly nitrates slow down slowy no matter if its breakin or broken in once the unit is broken in, and assuming nothing noteworthy has happened between your last waterchange you should not be adjusting your unit, there bio filters they dont respond instantly to huge changes in your waters quality IE a BIG fish dies and decomposes in your tank! if you try to micromanage these they will fail.


Hey all i have a question. Im making my own coil reactor. Its a 4 foot section of 4 inch PVC. I was going to cut it down but now im thinking. If i run 120 feet of .170 ID diameter hose into the reactor and then fill the reactor up with bio balls would i be able to increase my flow thru it as opposed to cutting it down to 36 inches high with 100 feet of the same tubing with approx 1 gallon of bio balls? Thanks for the adviceeither to back and re-read this thread or read it for the first time, if you still have this question then the answer is buy one dont build it.

[cb747]

I should have edited my post. Ive read a bunch of threads and i should cut my tubing in half. Approx 60 feet each and run them both into the reactor and have one output. Ill cut down the pipe to probably 30 inches or so and add the bio balls. I am guilty of asking first before reading!

[sanababit]

well here is mine, i made it 2 months ago and its not really workin
g, i got it calibrated at 1 drip a second.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z196/sanababit/DSC00213.jpg
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z196/sanababit/DSC00214.jpg
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z196/sanababit/DSC00215.jpg
if anyone has any photos please post them, thanks

sana

[mwood]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11162511#post11162511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsman
...
Should I be monitoring nitrates and nitrites of water output during cycling? I'm only about 2 weeks into cycling and assume the speed up slow down recommendation is for post cycle.[b] NO, the speedup slow down is NOT for post cycle, post cycle you should be leaving these things alone just verify there not cloged and dont touch it.

[b]I would monitor both producing nitrites speed up slowly nitrates slow down slowy no matter if its breakin or broken in once the unit is broken in, and assuming nothing noteworthy has happened between your last waterchange you should not be adjusting your unit, there bio filters they dont respond instantly to huge changes in your waters quality IE a BIG fish dies and decomposes in your tank! if you try to micromanage these they will fail.

...

Let me ask this a little differently. How many days after setting one of these up should I start adjusting the output for nitrates and nitrites? I assume it won't process nitrates the first day. It needs to cycle. During this cycle it sounds like nitrites will temporary increase. So I assume there is a time when testing output and adjusting doesn't make sense. Please clarify the breakin process.

Thanks

[sanababit]

nwood, very simply put, set it and dont touch it for a month, just test every so often for nitrites and nitrates, if you see nitrite coming out off the effluent you could always redirect the output to a bucket and let the cycle pass, i had mine for almost to months, its not working really well because off 2 reasons, i transfered the tank to a new one and had to disconect my denitrifier which when i hooked it back up it got a lot of air and oxigen pump into it, and second i had problems with the injecting pump and had to replaced which caused the same problem, right now it has been running for 2 weeks with an outflow off 1 drop per second, and now its just a waiting game. hope this helps

just remember, if you have a lot of flow coming out of this thing it will be a nitrate factory, if you have to slow of a flow it will create hydrogen sulfide that might crash your tank, just test and test and test.

sana

[rsman]

ok sanababit first : how big is that thing give details 1 1 drop per second seems way to slow for the size of that unit.

mwood:
you could start to adjust these things fairly quickly days but at first your testing for nitrite not nitrate, its the test results that tell you when to adjust not time, time is what you have to give it. the nitrite output will not harm your tank unless you have goten the flow wrong. if thats not clear please speak up!!!

hope that helps

[sanababit]

well the denitrifier is 28" high by 4" wide with a gallon of bioballs inside, i have tried a slow drip rate (like almost a stream like) for 3 weeks, and no results, after investigating and reading a little bit more i found out that i wasnt giving the denitrifier enough time to culture the anaerobic bacteria, so after the last pump change i talked about on my last post, i slowed the drip rate to 1 drop a second maybe a little bit faster than that, lets say 1 1/2 drops, well after two weeks, my tank is at 20ppm and the output of denitrifier is at 15 ish, i know its not much but hey its better than nothing, i will just let it do its magic and as soon as i get 0 nitrates i will adjust it just like you say in your post, its the test results that tell you when to adjust the unit NOT time.

great post BTW

sana

[sanababit]

ooops forgot, its has 100' of 1/4 tubing wrapped around

[mwood]

Sooooo, at first it will not reduce nitrate, but I want the flow just fast enough to not get nitrites. As time goes by I will need to speed up to avoid nitrites till it starts to reduce nitrates around a month????

[cb747]

Ok im thinking 30 inches of 4 inch pipe and 2 60 foot coils of .170 ID tubing. From what ive read and re-read that should handle my 200 gallons of water nicely. Sound about right?

[rsman]

sanababit: I dont see where you mentioned your nitrite level, and are those coils 1/4"OD or ID if its ID then the output of a stream its too fast for starting out. a 5ppm drop now sounds like a start.

mwood: actually at first it will create nitrate not a whole lot and not more than any other large surface area in your tank, but its still more than you had. and while cycling you dont need no nitrites in the output you just want very little nitrites in the output try not to micromanage it IE test every 3 days instead of 3x a day....

the amount of time it takes these to cycle is only a guess, its just like when you cycled your main tank you can do things to speed up the cycle (borrow from others, feed heavily, adjust flow more frequently ....) ((((NOTE that was adjust not speedup or slow down you have to test not guess )))) and you can do things that slow down the cycle (empty the unit, run it with no ammonia/nitrite/nitrate). the 4 to 6 week estimate is just that an estimate. NOW with that you should see some form of droping nitrate fairly quickly its just how much and does it hold that you cant count on.

cb747: 4" pipe is expensive maybe 2" pipe instead use as much pipe as you need to keep the coils under control :D it really doesnt take that much you just need to slow down the flow for a little...

[cb747]

I have 4 inch so thats what ill go with. I already tapped it with 2 fittings down by the base. Ive wrapped the coils around so ill just cut the pipe a little above the coils add some bio balls and get it online. :)

[cb747]

Final height is 23 inches :)

[sanababit]

you are right rsman, the thing is i did not test for nitrites, at first i did have to much water coming out, about 5 to 8 drops per second (almost a little stream), this thing did nothing for about 2 to 3 weeks, no nitrite, and maybe it was even raising my nitrates because of the amount of water coming out of it, then had the 2 problems and now i have been ciclyin this thing for about 2 weeks, i tested for nitrates only and im getting a little reduction on the outlet of unit, not to much to do a diference, so i am going to wait for better results.

rsman i will test tomorrow for nitrites and post results, to see whats going on, btw way the tubing is 1/4 O/D

[sanababit]

well tested today and the nitrites are at 0, nitrates are at 10 ppm and tank nitrate is 10 ppm, i will test saturday again, please keep this thread alive. thanks

sana

[Puffalicious]

does anyone have a complete DIY with pictures and hardware that we need for this?

I have a 40gal and I can't seem to lower my nitrates and i want to try this out.

[hal9000a]

before asking read the thread
:bum:

[fishtk75]

I looked and may have missed it but with what size and type pump do you all use ?

[hal9000a]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10507876#post10507876 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsman
you dont put the entire output of the pump down the coil read back i think there are pictures, but a simple T will do fine, especially if the long leg of the T is not hooked to anything

depending on what pump you have you may need to adjust the output at the long end of the T(using above setup) so more or less is pushed into the coil, but use a valve on the output to adjust the final drip rate.

just like rsman said
just put a "T" on one of the pump that you already have

[fishtk75]

hal900oa,
Thank you for your help,

Now can you all help on this so I get this right.

Now as I read 3" x 24" pvc pipe is all the size it needs to be with bioballs inside.
And 50' of .170 ID coil put on the inside of pvc pipe so it will not get light.
Or as I saw coils on the outside is that ok now?
As I reading 50' is ok not 75' too long for size of ID?
If more load add coils of same size beside each other with two valves on each end for flow not two or three coils put together inline?
Also the tee from a pump for water supply.
valve on outlet to set timing.
Timing as:
Alot of nitrite speed up slowly and wait
Alot of nitrate slow down slowly. and wait.

[rsman]

Now can you all help on this so I get this right. ok i guess its better to ask now then to have a problem later

Now as I read 3" x 24" pvc pipe is all the size it needs to be with bioballs inside.make it as big as you need to to keep the coil easy to manage
And 50' of .170 ID coil put on the inside of pvc pipe so it will not get light.
Or as I saw coils on the outside is that ok now?
light = bad just for different reasons in different areas of your unit. light on the coil will cause algae growth which will clog the coils and add oxygen which will make the coil inefficient. light in the bio chamber will kill the anerobic bacteria also bad. having the coil on the outside just means that you dont want a lot of light on the coil it dosnt need to be completely dark always. if you think you might need to expand your unit put the coil on the outside its easier to add to the outside than the inside


As I reading 50' is ok not 75' too long for size of ID?true

If more load add coils of same size beside each other with two valves on each end for flow not two or three coils put together inline? yes they need to be in parallel not in series. if you have 2 or more coils then having an adjusting valve AND a cutoff valve per coil makes it easier to adjust as you can cut off the flow to all but 1 coil at a time, and the unit output will be the same as the coil flow its not a requirement its just easier that way

Also the tee from a pump for water supply. until you get HUGE gravity works
[/b]valve on outlet to set timing.[/b] or input
Timing as:
Alot of nitrite speed up slowly and wait
Alot of nitrate slow down slowly. and wait.

sounds good to me

[fishtk75]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11579579#post11579579 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsman
Now can you all help on this so I get this right. ok i guess its better to ask now then to have a problem later

Now as I read 3" x 24" pvc pipe is all the size it needs to be with bioballs inside.make it as big as you need to to keep the coil easy to manage
And 50' of .170 ID coil put on the inside of pvc pipe so it will not get light.
Or as I saw coils on the outside is that ok now?
light = bad just for different reasons in different areas of your unit. light on the coil will cause algae growth which will clog the coils and add oxygen which will make the coil inefficient. light in the bio chamber will kill the anerobic bacteria also bad. having the coil on the outside just means that you dont want a lot of light on the coil it dosnt need to be completely dark always. if you think you might need to expand your unit put the coil on the outside its easier to add to the outside than the inside




As I reading 50' is ok not 75' too long for size of ID?true

If more load add coils of same size beside each other with two valves on each end for flow not two or three coils put together inline? yes they need to be in parallel not in series. if you have 2 or more coils then having an adjusting valve AND a cutoff valve per coil makes it easier to adjust as you can cut off the flow to all but 1 coil at a time, and the unit output will be the same as the coil flow its not a requirement its just easier that way

Also the tee from a pump for water supply. until you get HUGE gravity works
valve on outlet to set timing.[/b] or input
Timing as:
Alot of nitrite speed up slowly and wait
Alot of nitrate slow down slowly. and wait.

sounds good to me [/B]

rsman.
thank you for replying once you glue its done can not go back in and fix it with out sawing it apart.

So its ok as long as no light gets to coils can be put on outside so if I get black .0170 ID tubing no light will get to it and as you said adding is easier and donot have to fix anything inside the chamber only bioballs and water plus all fittings on outside.

To the adding coils for load adjust flow:
Close off #2 cutoff valve and set #1 coil adjusting valve to drip rate,
Close of #1 cutoff valve and set #2 coil adjusting valve to drip rate.
Then open #1 and #2 cutoff valves both flows in parallel now.
So you donot need the adjusting valve on the chamber if you set the both coils rate?

Or am I reading you wrong on coil flow setting?
If so how much flow for each coil?

[rsman]

once you glue its done can not go back in and fix it with out sawing it apart. yep thats generally how it works.

So its ok as long as no light gets to coils can be put on outside so if I get black .0170 ID tubing no light will get to it and as you said adding is easier and donot have to fix anything inside the chamber only bioballs and water plus all fittings on outside. right

To the adding coils for load adjust flow:
Close off #2 cutoff valve and set #1 coil adjusting valve to drip rate,
dont forget to open #2's cutoff
Close of #1 cutoff valve and set #2 coil adjusting valve to drip rate.
Then open #1 and #2 cutoff valves both flows in parallel now.
So you donot need the adjusting valve on the chamber if you set the both coils rate? yep thats it just follow the same pattern for any more coils past #2 that you may add

Or am I reading you wrong on coil flow setting? nope
If so how much flow for each coil? when starting as little as you can maintain, after its cycled as much as you can maintain

[fishtk75]

rsman,
I did not do as I said and made with the 50' x .170 ID coil inside the
4" x 24" h chamber.
Also I did not use a solid cap I saw on this thread and use a 4" screw on clean out plug on top so if I have to add a coil I can unscrew the top put it in put the cap back on.
I have as you said and works ok on the gravity feed line.

Now for person that may need a pump I use to test it for leaks with a Aqua Lifter pump filled the chamber and closed off outlet to pressure it saw a small one use more teflon tape leaks no more. But this pumps water ok if you have no sump.


Is this the same to start for one coil unit?

All done, except for one last detail. A proper drip rate is needed to maintain dwell-time within the unit so the bacterias can gobble up the nitrates. Too fast a flow and your tests will show nitrites, as the bacterias have too much O-2 and denitrification isn't taking place. Too slow a drip or flow rate and hydrogen sulfides are produced, giving a rotten-egg smell that indicates trouble to the inhabitants of the reef or fish tank. I have experimented and found that a drip of just under a steady-stream is best. In other words, a very fast drip, but a definite drip just the same. Use a small air valve to regulate this on the output tube (B) running back to your sump or display tank.

Or this?

1)run them until there is no air in the coils and chamber Id hesitate to put a minimum time frame on it but I would time how long it takes from when you hook it up until when water flows out the output, then run it full open for that much longer. while waiting it might help to turn your unit upside down shake it around and whatever you can to get all the air out. no need to get blazing acuracy here just get the air out. plus if you break it here its better as you will be sitting in front of the unit.

2) close down the valve(s) you used until no water flows

3) open up the first valve run it as slow as you can time how long it takes to fill an 8oz cup to exactly 8oz. let it run like that for an hour and time it again, if it slowed down then speed up the flow a notch do #3 until it doesnt slow down after an hour

4) if you have more than 1 coil goto #3 for each coil

5) let the unit run for 3~5 days or so

6) test nitrite/nitrate

7) if there is no nitrite go back to step #2

8) if there is a little nitrite (less than 1ppm or so) and there is nitrate go back to step #5

9) if there is a lot of nitrite ( greater than 1ppm or so) and there is nitrate speed up the flow a little bit then goto #5

10) if there is a lot of nitrite and no nitrate speed up the flow significantly then go back to #5

11) if there is no nitrite and no nitrate open up the flow completely and goto step 5

then as a suppliment if you have been thru the loop for a few weeks and your still not increasing flow restart the unit, going back to step #2

[fishtk75]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11582647#post11582647 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsman
once you glue its done can not go back in and fix it with out sawing it apart. yep thats generally how it works.

So its ok as long as no light gets to coils can be put on outside so if I get black .0170 ID tubing no light will get to it and as you said adding is easier and donot have to fix anything inside the chamber only bioballs and water plus all fittings on outside. right

To the adding coils for load adjust flow:
Close off #2 cutoff valve and set #1 coil adjusting valve to drip rate,
dont forget to open #2's cutoff
Close of #1 cutoff valve and set #2 coil adjusting valve to drip rate.
Then open #1 and #2 cutoff valves both flows in parallel now.
So you donot need the adjusting valve on the chamber if you set the both coils rate? yep thats it just follow the same pattern for any more coils past #2 that you may add

Or am I reading you wrong on coil flow setting? nope
If so how much flow for each coil? when starting as little as you can maintain, after its cycled as much as you can maintain




In my last post as I said I made it as you said inside put is there any update on starting I read two ways you said what is it now for one coil startup?
Also should there be any clouding of the water as when I first time cycled the new tank for the first was I set it up?
I see white fog starting.

[rsman]

I read two ways you said what is it now for one coil startup?
there is no fundimental difference in setup methods that I have posted, the first ones give you guess work because these are all just a little bit different flow rates will be different. the last one i posted gives you a step by step guide if you dont feel like learning or havent had the time yet to learn how these work. so if you feel that you understand this then go on your own, if you dont follow the step by steps.

[fishtk75]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11617178#post11617178 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsman
I read two ways you said what is it now for one coil startup?
there is no fundimental difference in setup methods that I have posted, the first ones give you guess work because these are all just a little bit different flow rates will be different. the last one i posted gives you a step by step guide if you dont feel like learning or havent had the time yet to learn how these work. so if you feel that you understand this then go on your own, if you dont follow the step by steps.

rsman
Thank you for time to help me just checking if you made any changes.

[sailfintang]

test

[rsman]

big changes I have a 150 gallon fish tank with no corals and 1 barely 2" orbic cardinal and nothing else. no filters, just 1 powerhead about 100lbs of dead rock, dont use any lighting, or anything else for that matter just a rio 90 in a 150 tank....

i feed that fish and thats about it.

[kenny77]

Ok i make my sell this post 4 years ago, but is until now that I will put it to the test. My brother in law has a 30g tank and for some reason the nitrate in his tank won't go down than 20ppm. Why I really don't know. As far as I know he does his weekly water changers, his run a skimmer 24/7 and he doenst have much of livestock. Just a coral beauty , ocellaris clownfish and a royal gramma.

My idea of why his nitrate is so high is the food. I thing he might be over feeding the tank and also he runs an auto feeder on weekends. Wich I told him it was completly unecesary since 2 days of without food won't kill nobody but will help his water parameter. Also he feed flakes with the auto feeder.

Any way. I know he need to search for the reason of the nitrate to get to the solution. But will like to help him building a denitrator but I have little experience with nano tank.

What should be the diameter of the tubing, the lengh and the drip rate for a 30g tank?

[rsman]

What should be the diameter of the tubing, the lengh and the drip rate for a 30g tank?

sorry but im not repeating myself anymore, there are 9 other pages here, and 4 or 5 other threads that are full of info.

read it, dont focus on drip rate as it cycles its no longer a drip, or length, use 50' of .170 ID tubing and build it just like the pros

[NyReefNoob]

been deciding between a coil or a sulfur with aragonite denitrator, this look's much simpler, getting redy to set a 60g cube with 15g sump, mixed reef, i usually over stock, but also have a skimmer to make up to a degree, and good maintnance, anyway's, what size would you recommend for mine outer pcv pipe height, amount of tubing, and pump, would be a tube running from tank to feed with valve to control flow, from understanding the pump would basically like usuing a phosban reactor but the pump side wouldnt go all the way to the bottom, and drill exit tube coming up, didn't see pic's of any, sorry for all the question's but would rather do it once and do it right. any help much appriciated, ty rick

[sailfintang]

Standard coils should be 3-4" in diameter with anywhere from 50' to 100' of coils which equates to about 18"-24" in height. You then need to fill the middle with bioballs for the bacteris to house and do there thing. My understanding is you can run a dual coil setup as well but not sure how that works just yet.

Here are some photos to check out:

Supplies: http://www.3reef.com/forums/attachments/i-made/3914d1093698289-coiled-denitrator-diy-coiled_denitrator.jpg

Coils: http://www.3reef.com/forums/attachments/i-made/3924d1093859176-coiled-denitrator-diy-coiling.jpg

Lid: http://www.3reef.com/forums/attachments/i-made/3925d1093859326-coiled-denitrator-diy-lid.jpg

Biobals and coils: http://www.3reef.com/forums/attachments/i-made/3926d1093859426-coiled-denitrator-diy-add_bioballs.jpg

Hope this helps I will try to find more photos if needed

[sailfintang]

Here is a complete shot:

http://www.3reef.com/forums/attachments/i-made/3949d1094245372-coiled-denitrator-diy-cd_finished.jpg

[madadi]

gota love these long thread that take a few hours to go trough.

i noticed someone mentioned using an oxygen probe earlier to measure oxygen levels in the main reactor to help adjust flow rate. those oxygen probes cost an arm and a leg though.

has anyone considered using an ORP probe???
one should get a negative ORP reading in the absence of oxygen and at a reading of about -175 ORP denitrification should be going full speed. this number i read somewhere and once i find the source ill post a link here.

most people that have said that their reactors are not doing what they should be doing, in my opinion, is due to the length of the tubbing and the flow rate ratio is not reducing oxygen enough to create an oxygen free environment in the main reactor to facilitate denitrification.

an ORP probe might confirm or help achieve this oxygen free space in the main reactor. im going to build a reactor sometimes this week with an ORP probe connected to my aquacontroller and see what happens. hope i have some good news for you guys. i really like the way the reactor looks with the tubbing on the outside like it was posted earlier in the thread.

[madadi]

here it is

http://www.njreefers.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4537.15

this thread might make your head spin at first. it introduced a few other things that have not been talked about in this thread because its talking about a sulfur denitrator which is a bit different. technically it achieves the same goal but a bit differently. nevertheless, it was a good read.

[rsman]

gota love these long thread that take a few hours to go trough. there are others that are larger on this subject

i noticed someone mentioned using an oxygen probe earlier to measure oxygen levels in the main reactor to help adjust flow rate. those oxygen probes cost an arm and a leg though. you dont need to or really want to use a probe to set the rate of flow, but it is nice to play with...

has anyone considered using an ORP probe??? overkill so not I


most people that have said that their reactors are not doing what they should be doing, in my opinion, is due to the length of the tubbing and the flow rate ratio is not reducing oxygen enough to create an oxygen free environment in the main reactor to facilitate denitrification. dont forget too long or narrow of a coil, or slow of a flow is just as bad as too short/fast

i really like the way the reactor looks with the tubbing on the outside like it was posted earlier in the thread. dont forget light = bad

[sailfintang]

Well I have read through this thread and out of expense reasons I constructed one of these instead of a sullfur denitrator to see how this works against my war on nitrates. I built my model a little differnt and have run into a few issues and am looking for some possible solutions.

My Coils are about 55' of ID .170 tube insdie a 16" long by 4" diameter PVC pipe fed from a "T" off a Mag 9.5 return.

I let the unit run for about 2 days to clear any air pockets out but now I can not seem to get a slow drip for cycling my unit, it with either overflow from the screw lid or if I slow the feed and out put equally eventualy there is not enough flow through the unit and the drip ceases after a day and I have to try nd adjut again and again..

I built my unit with this type of PVC Cap (which is where the overflow comes from:

http://jjgeisler.com/reeftank/images/projects/kalkwasser/top_cap.jpg

I did it this way so I can convert it to a sulfur denitrator if the results are not sufficient but when I slow the unit down to the drips water seeps through the top of the screw on cap. Any suggestions how to get this thing on a slow drip without flooding my floor?

In this second picture you can see the cap assenmbled and I labeled where the overflow comes from. I have screwed the cap on as tight as I can.

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo72/koesterkep/pcv_cap.jpg

Thanks for the help.

[Foosinho]

Try putting some teflon tape on the cap threads. That should stop the leaking (and push the water out where you want it to come out).

[preimo]

Great thread I have the day off and think i am going to try it

[therealfatman]

A coil denitrifier can be made of larger tubing as long as the tubing coil length is longer. The idea of a small diameter pipe is nice as it allows for easily hiding the unit in a small space in the tanks stand. Larger units for larger systems are often made with buckets using larger tubing and more bio-balls or even no bio-balls at all. As long as the container can be made air tight it can be used. The coils should be horizontal versu vertical though.

There are coil nitrifiers made using old small aquariums with a cut glass lid siliconed into place. There are denitrifiers made with two three and even four coils of tubing in one container. Not to many set requirements with a coil denitrifier other than a proportional slow rate of flow based on the coils tubing diameter and an air tight compartment to hold the coil(s). IMO metering pumps are the best choice for pumping water through a long small diameter coil as the are typically designed for small flows at high pressures (static head tolerant) IE. high resistance due to friction losses from the long small diameter tubing tubing. They are very often available on ebay at cheap prices.

[sailfintang]

Okay I have added a coil denitrator to my tank about a week or two ago. Now I read that if you get nitrites speed the flow up and if you get nitrate slow the speed down. what do you do if you are getting both?

currently I tested my output and these are the levels i am getting:

no2 = 0.5 ppm
no3 = 20 ppm

My output is about 3 drops a second, should i go faster , slow down or leave it where it is until it cycles through to 0 nitrates? Any help is appreciated.

[therealfatman]

If the outflow does not demonstrate reduced nitrate, but instead contains higher ammonia or nitrite than the system water, the flow is too fast and its permitting oxygen-rich water to support nitrification. If the coil denitrator is adjusted to reduce nitrate but the system accumalates it faster than it can be reduced, longer coils may be needed.

Therefore, assuming you had no readable ammonia or nitrites proor to trhe water running through the coils, if you get nitrites you need to slow the flow down. If you get more nitrates from your water coming out of the coil than your system water prior to it going through then slow down the flow. Basically the water is flowing so fast it is supporting nitrifification and likely is still carrying to much oxygen to to allow growth of the bacteria needed for denitrification. That is one reason why a lot of people use long coils, such as 200 to 250 ft of 1/4" tubing. It is not a cheap prospect. I have made quite a few with PEX tubing, as is used on RO units. It is available in sizes up to 2" diameter and you can use Johnny quest type fittings on it up to 1" diameter.

I no longer use them as I find they require more frequent observation, adjustment and testing of discharge water parameters that simple sand buckets. I never found small coil denitrifiers, with short coils, worth the money to purchase or effort to construct for what little denitrification they could actually perform. Plus they generally are not cheaper than sand buckets to set up.

[Vincerama2]

Quick question...the coil doesn't have to be on the inside right? I mean, in theory, you could just wrap the tubing around the outside of the housing and at the bottom tap it into the bioball filled container, right?

Or have a huge coil of tubing contained withing a PVC tube, just to keep it neat, and then lead the end to another capped, bioball filled pvc tube (sort of like a two stage CA reactor).

If that's the case, then making a simple coil denitrator would be simpler if you just bought a bunch of icemaker line, which is sold in a loose coil, then just connect them up end to end (still coiled for neatness) and there you have your huge coil. Then just plumb the end to some bioball filled tube with two valves.

??

V

[Vincerama2]

What if I bought this

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=120&product_id=8590

500' 1/4" spool of tubing, and just attached the end to a bionball filled chamber? Would that work?

V

[32flavors]

Yes, it would work--but how many coils do you need? What length are you using for each?

C

[32flavors]

You may not want to use that exact type as it says "translucent," which means you could get some algae growth, especially in the upper, pre-O2 depleted feet of tubing.

[reedrodz]

I just did mine. Is 50' too short for a 1/4 tube?

[One Dumm Hikk]

No, 50 feet is not too short for 1/4", its about perfect.

[4295Hawk]

Glad to see the DIY Coil Denitrator thread is still going strong after so many years. I could really use some expert advice on building one of these for my 210 gallon FO heavily stocked set-up. I have read all 9 pages of the existing thread and read about numerous set-ups for various size tanks and could use some help for my 210. Hope someone can help.

I am pretty sure I will go with a 4" PVC pipe and kind of like the idea and ease of wrapping non-translucent tubing on the outside of the PVC & feeding it inside to the bio-balls (however I am not committed to this design if anyone does not think it is a good idea). I will be utilizing a small external adjustable flow pump (79GPH). Here's what I could use some help with:

1) What height should the PVC be (assuming 4" diameter pipe)?
2) I have read about a couple of different size diameter tubing. Which size is recommended for this setup 3/8" 1/4" etc. Please provide OD & ID.
3) How many feet of the above tubing will be required? or if coiling is necessary, how many coils of what length? If multiple coils, can they be coiled on top of each other in one continous feed as oppose to multiple coils with multiple inputs?

Anything else you can share that might be helpful or good to know. Thanks in advance for your help.

[m-rass]

Alright I just picked up a used Coil Denitrator on craigslist. It was sitting around for a while with water in it. It smells like rotten eggs.

How should I go about cleaning and recycling the unit?

Anyone tried a used one?

[Mr Reefer 1690]

I've been using a coil denitrator on an SPS tank and it has kept the nitrates at zero for months. The problem is , my corals are surviving and not thriving. Lighting and regular water parameters are in check. Is there anything in the output water from the denitrator that could be effecting my water chemistry? I try to maintain the drip rate at 1 / second.

thanks

[ncutler]

After reading the entire thread which has helped me enormously. I've decided to do the multiple coil approach.

The one thing that wasn't really discussed that much was the media used. There was mention of Seachem's de-nitrate but it sounds like there really isn't much point to use such media because the amount of surface for the anaerobic bacteria would be sufficient with bio balls. I also know that this might cause some clogging due to the smaller size of the media. My thought was whether holding some de-nitrate in a filter bag might help keep it from clogging.

Other ideas were of ceramic rings, bio stars etc. Is there any reason to go for one over the other, or mix them in layers?

On another thread, one person had made two PVC pipes, with one full of the coils and the other full of the media, this seemed to be one way of keeping the height down if that was important. Just another idea I thought that should be noted on this great thread.

Also, I hear of dosing carbon in the form of vodka or sugar. Could someone with experience discuss this and how it is best done.

Again Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread, it has fundamentally changed my design I will be underytaking.

My goal is to build a 2-3 coil denitrator. According the the research above, increasing the coils that send water down to the media (which is then shared for all the coils output) creates the most efficient way of expanding the system. The limit is the coils, not the media.

3 coils might be overkill, but in my mathematical calculations, I should be able to fit 3 in the 1" space that using a 3" tube to wrap around would allow for in order to fit inside a 4" PVC. 1/4" OD tubing would add up to 3/4" wrapped around each other. 50 feet of tubing is said to be enough for 1/4 OD but I suspect I will make it 60 to make sure since you want very little oxygen to enter the media. This works out that I would need the pipe to be about 20" long for the inner coil (outer coils will need slightly less).

I found some 1/4" OD black tubing that I will run down the outside of the pipe, with each coil glued to the outside of the last so all 2-3 coils will be ran down the outside being fed into the pipe roughly an inch from the bottom. I am planning to include either layers of media, or bags of different media including Kent's Nitrate Sponge and Seachem's De-Nitrate along with ceramic rings and possibly bio balls. I will design this with clogging in mind. With long enough inputs that I can attach simple needle valves to them to adjust flow between each. There will be a needle valve at the end to control output.

Input will be coming from either a corner filter moded to act in reverse (to create a prefilter) or from another pre-filter setup. The pump will be an aqualifter and the output will be sent into the back of the internal filter to mix with oxygenated water.

This is the plan. I'm now taking bets on how far off I will end up from this plan...

[hardiel]

But I had to tweak it a little.

Finally after a few months running it works. I did my CD in March following the instructions. Basically a 2 feet long 3'' PVC pipe and 70 ft of 1/4 tube and the rest bioballs.

First it was OK but then I had to include in the setup a small pump (aqualifter) because the tube clogged often and was really hard to put it @ 1 drop per second. The input is in the display tank and the output is in the sump.

The little thing I did is to put a feeder near the bottom. I took the idea from some fellow that sells Denitrators online and in his specs, he feed his either with vodka or sugar/water.

So I did it and it is working so far. Let's see the next problem (probably Nitrogen gas buildup inside).

Here are the pics. I painted in black because...I had this color. Probably light blue or green would look nicer.

If you have questions, please throw them. I'm no expert but I think I've been in all the stages of this project: illusion, desperation, despair, happiness, etc.

http://imgur.com/h3JMdl.jpg
http://imgur.com/ai9ujl.jpg

NITRATES ARE GONE!!!

[quahreef]

I was thinking of setting one of these up. Do people still run these or have they been shown to have issues?

[stephenhall1987]

I was thinking of setting one of these up. Do people still run these or have they been shown to have issues?

If done correctly they will help lower nitrates. If done incorrectly they have the potential of harming your tank with hydrogen sulfide.

The problem with them is that they only remove nitrates. They do not remove phosphates, silicates, etc.

[jon+megan]

Mine looks the same externally,inside is 100 ft of dripline tubing and about 20 nylon pot scrubbers.

mine outputs 2 pints per hour at 0ppm.