zoo eating nudibranch.

[reefkeeper59]

Here's something any zoo keeper should fear.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75455&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=75453&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500

When I found out what this was I was very unhappy. Zoo eating nudibranch. They are 1/16 to 1/4 inch in length (small).

It was on a Saterday night when I figured it out. No store's open. Sunday I tried researching to find how to get rid of them. No one seem to be able to tell me what to do. All anybody said was "those are nasty". It was now 10pm Sunday night.

Out of anger watching my zoo's dieing of a slow death, I thought "there has to be something I can do". I thought very hard and said, if the zoo's close themselfs up to protect themselfs, I can use that to my advantage. The nudibranchs are on the outside of the zoo's, not on the closed in portion. I took 4 large zoo colonies out of the tank that are closed up protecting themselfs from the burning/stinging of the nudi's. I could see the nudibranch's hanging on the sides of them eating there tissue. Knowing that zoo are great begginer/ starter corals, I thought they are very hardy. They can take a beating. If I can sacrifice a little damage to them on the outside to kill the nudi's but the inside is protected, they may servive. So I took a 5 gall bucket to the faucet and filled it half way with hot water (hot bath water). Not steaming. I'd quess 125-150 degree's. I put the four corals in the hot water and watched the nudi'd fall off (dead) after 15 to 20 seconds. I left them in there for about 30-40 second's total. I put them back in the tank and noticed one opening up about two hours later. This was the first time it was open in a week. I have about 150 zoo colonies and frag's. I dipped them all. I noticed that as the water got cooler (90-100), it didn't kill them as well. So I kept re-heating the water with a few cups very hot water every now and then. By the time I got done (2hours later) I noticed a couple others looked like they opened as well. The bottom of the bucket must have had 1000 dead nudi's in it. Next day all zoo's are open fully and thriving for first time in a couple weeks.

Since, I have found that you can use lugol's dip. It said to put 40 drops in a gallon of water (for dip). I tried 4 drops in a glass with 8-10 ounce's water. It didn't phase them. Watched them crawl on the inside of the glass for an hour or so. I put 10 more drop's in, nothing. So I put 20 more drop's in. That killed them. Forty drops in 10 ounce's. I dipped a couple zoo's that had missed with the hot dip. I left those in there about 30 minutes (tank temp). I put those in the tank and noticed they opened but very slowly.

Interesting how fast the heat killed the nudi'd but didn't hurt the zoo's.

It was risky but it worked.

Check your zoo's and leather corals once a month for these guys. Take a glass of warm water, shake a zoo in it and see if they fall off. You could have these for month's and not know it untill it's a population boom. I noticed that my zoo's didn't open much, but the water quality was perfect and 90 sps and 150 ricordea are doing great. I noticed something on the glass one day. Within a week, I had 50 of them on the glass when lights out.

There are still a few on the glass. I bought three differnet types of wrasses and they won't eat them. I'll keep them in there and some scooter blenny's, maybe some other copod eaters for other bugs.

I'm going to do the logul's dip in the entire tank. That way it get's any that are in the overflows and wet/dry etc.. I took the sand out and pitched it. There was no live rock in the tank or it would have to be pitched, dipped or scortched as well. It is a farm/propogation tank. Fortunatly the tank (120) is plumbed with a larger tank (240) that has giant skimmer, chiller and refugium's and 400+ lbs LR. When I plumbed them I made them with inline valves that allow me to cycle them seperatly. Also put uv between tanks to minimize disease spread from one to other. So I'll seperate, treat, change 100% water (120), then open valves and cycle together for the filtration needs.

Prey you don't get these scum bags. I'll dip everything I buy from now on in water or dip before going in tank.

[acropora1981]

the first coral I ever bought, back in 1996 was a head of zoo's infested with those little buggers. I finally killed them all off, 3 years later, after a series of daily 5 minute FW dips.

[mfinn]

Somehow, I don't see how any coral is going to survive in 150 degree water, even for 40 seconds.
Anybody else doing this?
Is this the new zoo dip?

[mummra100769]

it does not seem safe to me (for the coral). i would think that there are so many other ways to kill these buggers that to go to such an extreme in not needed.

[reefkeeper59]

I did it. It worked. Some (5 out of 30 colonies)look like there stressing a little but are open. Should be in good shape soon. As you can see how hard these are to get rid of as mentioned above, I'll opp for pitching them in garbage and starting over before dipping for three years.

ACROPORA1981 "I finally killed them all off, 3 years later, after a series of daily 5 minute FW dips".

Pics of them after hot dip.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=76608&papass=&sort=1&thecat=997
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=76607&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=997

I may have the buggers even after hot dips and lugol's. If so they are gone.

[reefkeeper59]

mummra100769.

there aren't "so many ways' to kill these. They can grow by the thousands and it only take's one egg to start them over again. Do some searching on this site and see the comments about them. Ask the pro's and see what you come up with and put all those (many) ways to kill them on here for us all to see. Better yet, I'll be glad to send you one, and see how savvy you are. They get in the filters, plumbing, overflows, EVERYWHERE. I dosed them with what may be the only cure and had to 10X the dose to kill them. $14.00 per ounce. $1792.00 gallon. I've been on line with the chemical companies and they aren't much help.

[acropora1981]

hmm i never did hot dips, I dipped them at about 75-80F. The adults arent hard to kill, its the damned eggs, they're tough, but freshwater kills a 1mm egg faster than a 10mm polyp.

[crpeck]

Reefkeeper59,

What chemical cure do you mean? Does one exist? I have a miserable infestation ... everywhere.

I've dipped all of the colonies I can pull out. One large colony is all over a large piece of liverock that has been in there since the beginning of my tank. It is full of all kinds of life ... feather dusters, a coco worm, pods, sponges, cup corals, you name it. The zo's on that rock look pretty good, but I found a ring of nudibranch eggs around the base of a zoanthid, so I know they must be on that rock, too.

It's going to break my heart to dip that rock and kill everything else on it, too.

Does anyone know any other way?

Cathy

[reefkeeper59]

lugol's, fourth item down. This is a RC preferred site (sponsor).

http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/brandsubcategory.asp?brandID=KM&subcatID=ad%2Dsr&offset=30

Kent Marine (maker of lugol's) doesn't seem to have many suggestions regarding other corals being dipped in this solution. You may want to consider removing the items and gluing to another rock first. Or removing the zoo's. I frag them by the hundreds.

Good luck.

[crpeck]

Thanks,

It is a REALLY big rock and completely covered in zoanthids .. I have no idea how many but it would have to be hundreds.

I went ahead and bit the bullet and dipped it. I already had the fresh water ready with Lugols and matched to pH and temp. Fortunately, it was in the front and only supporting one other rock, also covered with zoanthids that needed to come out and be dipped anyway. Really made a mess pulling it out of the sand.

The only rock left with zoanthids cannot reasonably come out. It only has 12 - 15 really common green zo's on it. They have been closed for several days. I guess I need to just tweeze them out? How sad.

This has been really depressing. My tank looks like a war zone. From what I read, I have to do this all again every 3 days to catch hatching eggs? For how long? Maybe I can try the Lugols as follow up since hopefully the newly hatched Nudibranches might be weaker?

Is it reasonable to assume that the first colony that closed and showed the infestation is probably the colony that brought in the nudibranches? Actually, the first two colonies that shut down first both came from the same place at the same time. Both had the most nudis shake off in the dip and clearly had the heaviest infestation. I'm wondering at what point, I should contact where I got them from let them know what is happening. I got the zo's the end of November and started seeing problems around the end of December. They may have come with just eggs.

I've been too trusting ... assuming that if you just buy from reputable places you shouldn't have to quarantine. What an idiot ... never again will I add anything without quarantine and never again without a dip if it is a coral that can stand it.

:mad:

[reefkeeper59]

Take a carpet knife or chisel and scrape under them as low as possible. Picture them not being there and your trying to scrape off some rock. You'll prob save 50% or higher. depends on the family. Other option would be to get hot water and inject onto the zoo with a baister, while syphoning on the down side of the hot water flow. May take two people. The hotter water will cause the nudi to jump off.

Not sure what good it would do to notify a retailer about the issue, unless they still have a consistent supply of zoo's. If the zoo's wher stocked in a tank that went void of zoo's for a week or more, they probably died out. You can look in the tanks they came from for closed zoo's.

A nudibranch is essentially a snail without a shell. Over generations they have devised a form of survival (shield,defense), this being the natural poison from the zooanthus. They consume the poison from the zoo and store it on there upper body. When a preditor strike's, they get a very bitter taste and reaction to the poison. This makes them undesirable to fish and invertabrates.

There is a lot of speculation as to some parasitic eating wrasses that may cure the problem by consuming them. I had a large population of nudi's and dipped the invested colonies in very warm if not hot water (150 Degrees) that killed many of the adult nudibranch. I then purchased a 6 line wrasse and a manderin, thinking the wrasse was going to eat the remaining nudibranch. I took a fiberglass rod (3/8 diamter) and put the tip on a few nudibranch that survived the dipping. The nudibranch would stick to the rod. I then raised the tip into the water column and shook it loose, hoping the wrasse would eat it up. It would grab it, spit it, grab it, spit it and swim away. Obvious that it wasn't going to eat it. However, With just a few nudibranch left in the tank, I watched them (zoo's) very closely and removed any remaining (visible) nudibranch. I noticed that when I touched the zoo's and they closed, the wrasse would come behind me, inspect the area and nibble. I continued manual extraction of the adult nudibranch (half dozen or so). It's been three weeks and I haven't see a nudi yet. I didn't even get a chance to use the lugol's. All my zoo's are open and thriving.

Preditors won't eat the adult nudibranch because of the poison (bitterness), yet will consume the egg's. Egg's can't consume poison until they hatch and are larva stage. End result, once the adult nudibranch are removed, the wrasse get's the egg's and problem solved. Hopefully.

I have 11 large zoo colonies and 12 acropora frags coming in tomarrow. They will be dipped before tank entry.

Good luck!

[crpeck]

Thanks for the help.

It is interesting what you say about the wrasse eating the eggs but not the nudibranches. I have a Mandarin who has been pretty interested in those zo's, even after I dipped the rocks in freshwater and I'm sure killed all his copepods. I didn't find many eggs when cleaning off the zoanthids. Maybe if I'm lucky, my Mandarin is taking care of the eggs, I've gotten all the nudis, and this may not be so bad after all.

Here is hoping anyway.

I know I need to go scrape those zo's left before they infect the ones I just dipped, but right now I'm kind of ODed on this whole experience.

Thanks for sharing your happy ending anyway. I needed some encouragement. Hope mine works out as well. How do you spot the adults to pull them off, though? I can barely see them unless I move the colony where I can use a magnifying glass. Maybe it's my over 40 eyes. :-)

Thanks again!
Cathy

[reefkeeper59]

I just look for closed zoo's.

Also keep an eye out for snails with a black and white striped pattern. Disc shaped. They are zoo eaters also. They are easy to see (1/2 inch diameter).

[Drewcipher]

I have 2 questions for anyone that might have an opinion. First, I asked the owner of my LFS and he said he had heard of some people that had used flatworm exit successfully. He knows they aren't flatworms, but this is what he heard. Anyone tried this? Second, what happens when they have multiplied out of control and eaten all the zoos. Do they adapt and eat something else? or die off like ick without fish in the tank?

[mfinn]

I don't believe that Flatworm Exit made by Salifert will kill the zoanthid eating nudibrachs, but I do use it in the zoanthid dip when I get new colonies in. I use it mostly for any flat worms that might be on the piece.
I'm hoping that the do die for lack of food. I don't think they will eat anything else.

[crpeck]

I have heard of the flatworm exit solution, but I have not heard of anyone who has actually used it successfully.

According to Dr. Ron, their diet is very specialized and without zoanthids they will die off. Actually, the only sure way to get rid of them is to dip and quarantine the zo's and keep them out of the tank about 6 weeks. Meanwhile, the zo's need to be dipped every 3 days ... I don't know how long ... to eliminate any eggs.

I'm hoping it's not going to be that extreme, but today ... saw one crawling across the front of my glass and zeroing in on one of my favorite colonies and ... of course ... the most difficult rock to pull out and dip.

Thanks for asking the question. I would love to hear if anyone has first hand success with using the flat worm exit.

Cathy

[reefkeeper59]

Another favorite food of nudibranch is spounge's. If they have nothing else to eat they may eat those. They like yellow spounges (a common florida type spounge, atlantic). They also eat poisnous spounge's, as they use the poison for there defense. Simular to the poison from zoo's. You may not think you have spounge's, but if you have alot of rock that's been in your tank for some time, there are small spounge's on the underside.

[reefkeeper59]

I had flat worms (only a few here and there) and used the flat worm extract. Didn't faze the nudi's.

[lunarlanderboy]

So after 10 years of dreaming and 3 months of cycling my tank I buy my first coral colony- (some zoos) and after about two weeks one night I notice these things are all over it!! At first I was excited and now I am terrified after looking for info and reading all this. Thanks for the info though. Luckily I only have one colony and no other corals yet. There are probably about 7-8 visible adults. I guess I might try the hot water trick.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/30401BrownNudibranch2-med.JPG

[lunarlanderboy]

Does anybody have any updated information or experience on these little devils before I undertake the attempted irradication?

[crpeck]

With only one colony in a new tank, you should be able to take care of this without too much trouble.

I didn't do hot water. I just brought RO water in line with my tank for temp and pH. I let the zo's sit in it for 5 minutes, then turned them upside down and really whooshed them around in the water. Nudibranchs fell out like crazy. I pulled them out and looked over them carefully with a magnifying glass for eggs and pulled those off with tweezers. Then I swooshed them again to make sure I rinsed everything off.

I did this to 7 colonies Monday and by the next day, all of them were opening and looking much happier to be free of the critters. Well, the only colony that took a couple days to open was the one that had been closed down for almost a week before by the nudibranchs.

To do it right, they ought to be dipped again every 3 days. I'm not sure how long it takes. If you can keep your one colony clean, they should die out in your tank.

Good Luck
Cathy

[crpeck]

p.s. Thanks for posting the awesome picture. It will really help others trying to identify these.

[Drewcipher]

Originally posted by lunarlanderboy
Does anybody have any updated information or experience on these little devils before I undertake the attempted irradication?

Not updated, but old. We tried this and it seems to be working well, and also doesn't scare me like super hot water.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=451720&highlight=mucho+dip

[crpeck]

Thanks for that link. That's where I got the instructions I followed and then I couldn't find the thread again to post the link.

[jcigars]

Try this link Pests (http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=351&ref=3409&subref=AJ) I hope it helps someone :) If you see nudis on any colony remove it from your system asap. Setup a QT tank and treat the pieces when necessary. If you dont find the eggs it will never end.

Jimmy

[reefkeeper59]

that would be a warm water dip, NOT HOT.

[MUCHO REEF]

A dip will not kill the eggs. They are encased ( spelling ) in a thin sticky protective sack when they are layed by the adult nudis. If you really have a serious case of Nudis, I wouldn't wait three days, it is safe to dip every other day for a full week. I would never recommend dipping everyday, not saying that you can't, I'm no doctor, I have never done this and I wouldn't want to be respondsible if someone did it with negative results. All I know is the dip works if done correctly.

Mucho

[crpeck]

Thanks, Mucho

I'm kind of embarassed about this, but now that it is having a happy ending here is proof that zoanthids are really tough when it comes to fresh water dips.

A couple days after I had dipped all my other zo's, I realized I had missed one frag of about 8 polyps. I fixed up a small bowl to dip that one, put it in and went to do a couple things for the 5 minutes I had to wait. The phone rang, the kids went crazy ... you know how it is. All of a sudden, I realized I had forgotten those zo's.

They had been in the freshwater for 40 minutes! They were sitting there all cold and puckered up and were starting to look a little gray. I put them in the quarantine tank with a hope for the best.

It took them about 3 days, but they're starting to open up. It looks like they're going to make it.

I was feeling bad for them dipping for 5 minutes, but now I'm not worried about 5 minutes at all!

Cathy

[crpeck]

Does anyone out there know if these nudibranchs eat the parazoanthus (yellow polyps) too? They're a different suborder under Zoanthidea. So far, they don't seem to be affected.

I'm getting ready to do another dip. Didn't do that rock last time and ugh ... it will really mess my rockwork up to do it.

Is this a question for Dr. Ron?

Cathy

[mrkrispy]

I got the nudis pretty bad, I just kept at it with a turkey baster for about 2 months, daytime and nightime. They finally disappeared a few months ago, haven't seen them since...

[crpeck]

They will suck up off of the zo's with a turkey baster? Or do you just keep blowing them off?

I ended up dipping everything, even the yellow palythoas, 3 times 2 or 3 days apart. I've got 4 colonies in the small quarantine tank where I can watch and see if the nudibranchs come back and put the rest back in the main tank.

So far the only casualty in all of this is a feather duster that got bombed by a big falling rock while I was tearing everything up to get all the zo's out to dip. Really sad ... he was really big and pretty and has been doing well for 6 months or more.

So far, so good ... no signs of nudibranchs. I don't know quite how long before I can consider myself safe.

I'll keep the turkey baster in mind. Problem for me is that I can't see them without a magnifying glass until they're really big and by then, the infestation is really bad. Your eyes must be better than mine.

[lunarlanderboy]

I've been doing the same thing on my one zoo colony that I bought infested- surprising them at night with the lights and sucking off everything I can see for the past two weeks or so. At first there were like 25-30 on there and now I'm lucky to find one or two. Just as a side note I put some of the nudibranchs in fresh water for 2 min and they thrashed around for a while and stopped moving but when I put them back in salt water they recovered and started crawling around again. Tough little guys. So I figure if your're just dipping in fresh water unless you leave it in there for awhile I don't think your going to kill any that are still hanging on the coral. The good thing about it though is that they go into a shock reaction in the fresh water and quite a few fall off. I dipped my zoo colony in fresh water for 10 minutes yesterday and 5-6 more came off in the process. Zoos are back open again today.

[mrkrispy]

IF you have lots of flow, turn the pumps off. Suck the slugs out off the zoos or whatver. I put them in a cup of water while I am working, then put them down the garbage disposal. Not one tear shed! It is most productive to work at night with a flashlight, but you can still find them with the lights on. I gently spray water at the zoos with the turkey baster to get them to close up, and then you see lots more. The bigger nudis acquire the color of the zoos, making them harder to find when the zoos are open.

patientence and just keep at it.

[lunarlanderboy]

Has anyone noticed that the little dark brown "extentions" on the nudibranchs break off and then wriggle around for like a half an hour. I don't know if its just a reaction of the nerves or what.

[nalbar]

i also did it the mrkrispy way, except i used a stiff quarter inch tube with flex tube attached and just sucked them right out. they try to hold on but have no chance against the pull.

it took me a month before i no longer saw any. but i still keep watch.




nalbar

[mrkrispy]

wow its nalbar!

[reelfreak]

for those of you that have had these.......Do you think this is one of the scumsuckers??? I caught him cruising on the front glass today, and promptly sent him to a quarantine till I knew what it was....I have had several smaller zoo colonys that are either disappearing or closing up.....Last night I did a fw dip on one of the ones thats been partially closed, probably too short though....only a couple minutes, and all I got were bristle worms and copeopods, and alot of other little things I couldn't even see w/ a magnifying glass.....this little sob was about 2 cm long and mostly white/off white....
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/63107zoonudi.jpg

I have been looking for signs of them for a while as I have lost several different frags.....never see them, guess they were too small and the zoos are too far back to see w/ mag.glass.....what do the eggs look like??? This is probably an adult?? so I'm certain to have eggs and smaller ones??? This sux, but is what I have suspected since loosing some zoos..... :mad:

[mfinn]

That does look like one. Most of the ones I have found usually had some color.
Here is a picture of the eggs.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/11798nudieggs.jpg

[reelfreak]

those are the eggs in the center of the pic? do they lay them in a circular pattern.....and the one I caught today, on the tips of the wavy limbs( for lack of better words) appendages, were kind of light green or so....

and if those are the eggs in the center, are those directly on the polyp in that pic?? I thank you for your response, cuz I've been stumped on why I've lost some zoos?? Everything else in the tank never shows signs of anything bad, just a few of the zoos.. thanks again....

[crpeck]

Great pictue mfinn! Thanks!

I saw some of those on mine when I was fighting this and thought they were eggs, but wasn't sure till now. On my small zo's, some of the eggs were laid all the way around the base of the polyp like a necklace.

Knock on wood ... I seem to be clear but it is still too early to let my guard down. The colonies looked a little wimpy for a while after all the dips, but they've all recovered ... even the little colony I accidentally left in the freshwater for over 40 minutes. I would recommend that though .. they looked really bad and shed what looked like a layer of skin before they started to recover.

Cathy

[MUCHO REEF]

Great photo MFINN, with your permission, I would like to use it with something that I'm

Thanks, Mucho

[Andystl]

Last night I found some zoo eating nudibranches on the glass of my tank. Look like I am about to join the freshwater dipping club. Here are a couple pics:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v112/andystl/unknown.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v112/andystl/unknown1.jpg

[reefkeeper59]

I started this post on 12/31/04. I thought I'd gotten rid of the nudi's. Last night (2/8/05) I found two more. I took all zoo's (100+) and put them in a seperate 15 gal tank, filled half way full of lugol's dip solution (35 minutes) and then a fresh warm water dip for 40 minutes. Yes, 40 minutes. This is the second time for the warm water (125 degree or so) dip. Ifound only two nudi's dead. I'm sure there was more in the debree in the bottom. What surprized me was a mantis looking shrimp still alive in the tank. Didn't even know I had any.

I put the zoo's in my 120 gal and almost all opened up in 2 hours.

And now? Now I wait for another couple months and do it again. I convinced that if you have a lot of zoo's, the nudi's are part of the equation. Except it , dip and move on.

[reefkeeper59]

?

The zoo's are full of water. I can see thru them with a light behind them. If a nudi can crawl inside one, dipping will never cure the problem.

Any thoughts or knoledge of nudi inside a zoo?

[reefkeeper59]

Another thing. When I do my dips, I don't check PH or anything else. I don't use declore either. Zoo's must be very hardy. 35 min in lugol's (saltwater) and 40 minute fresh warm water dip and they are open and full with color.

I will take a plain brown and put in fresh water for two hours tomarrow and see if it lives. I've forgot and left them sitting out after fraging a few times (waiting for glue to dry). Once for about 30 minutes. It looked dried. They are still alive. On the other hand, I've been careful with some frags and they died (very view).

Bought a tank today for the zoo's. 180 gal. I now have a 240/180/120. I'll probably get another 120 next month.

[northbay-reefer]

Mfinn I found two of those egg sacks last night on one of my zoo's colony ... those darn nudies

[whosjohnny]

reefkeeper59, are you married? how can you afford to get 240/180/120 and another 120 without your wife complaining?

[reefkeeper59]

It's not just the tank's that are $$$. My electric bill is $490 a month. That will move to $600. I sold the LFS $450 of combo rocks. With a little cash that get's me the 180. He wants another batch next week and I've got them. That get's me the 120. I have a new chiller in the box and plenty of parts (sump,pump,skimmer,lights,etc) left from other tanks to get the 180 going.

30 zoo colonies
80+ zoo frags
30 acro,monti colonies
120+ acro,monti frags
150+ recordia polyps
10 matalic green star polyp colonies
8 palothoa colonies
400lb LR
and lots more

currently have $22,000 invested in my system, including livestock.

my new work center below
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/586/54040DSC_3620.JPG

[reefkeeper59]

Here it is Arpil 11 and I still got the nudi's. Found two the other day. I got the 180 few weeks ago and have the stand almost done. 180 will be a zoo tank only. That way I can take all of them out and dip all and reinsert. Currently it's hard to keep track of which ones have been dipped. I am now up to 400+ frags. I counted 286 zoo frags and colonies. Got 20 more in since then. Over 300 now (zoo's). Other 150+ are sps and recordia.

reefkeeper59 gallery
reefkeeper60 gallery

Good luck to all in the dipping club.

[crpeck]

I'm right here with ya.

I don't have as many frags and colonies as you do, so you'd think I could have gotten them. Back when we were posting on this thread, I dipped everything ... 3 times .... 3 days apart. I examined every colony under a magnifying glass and pulled egg clusters off with tweezers. I kept 3 that were the worst in quarantine.

This must be right around the time it takes for them to show up again, because I just within the last week have started seeing them again, too. I've sucked 4 out with a turkey baster ... they were big ones.

btw, the colony that got dipped for 40 minutes is doing fine. The colonies in the quarantine tank still don't have nudibranchs, but the main tank got them back. Figures.

Good luck and have fun dipping.

Cathy

[reefkeeper59]

if I could only invent a nudibranch trap, I'd be rich.

[Speckled Grouper]

Just finished my dipping exercise for the night. Got only one tonight but it was "the mother of all nudis". I praise myself, I am getting so good at this, I mean spotting them, they are truly masters of disguise.
My beloved LFS has gotten some Sea Grass Wrasses in, but they are in hiding in the sand still, so I got to wait until they can catch one for me......I sure hope that will be the answer to this agony.

[reefkeeper59]

another pic of nudi.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/54040DSC_1629.JPG

[FragFarmer]

yeah they suck arse alright. They retain the color of what ever polyp they are eating to so they blend in perfectly as well as look like part of the polpy they are eating.

[reefkeeper59]

hours after total darkness, get a flashlight out and you may be surprised at what you see. The population of these things can get to the hundreds or thousands befere you catch it.

If you have a zoo rock and some of the zoo'z are not open for several days while other 1/2 inch away are fine. You better be checking.

[clown fanatic]

ive asked this question almost 3 times and gotten no answer. can you just see these guys walking around. i have what looks to be a head of a nudibranch sticking out of my zoa's. upon further inspection it looks to be living in a clear plactic tube. the tube has to be created by that little bugger because i destroyed it once and with a couple of days there was another one. ive done SEVERAL FW dips and nothing but copepods come off....what do i have?

[crpeck]

The "clear plastic tube" part throws me. I don't know what that would be. There are a number of creatures that build tubes, maybe feather duster or fan worms. I have a lot of those obnoxious snails that build tiny hard tubes. I don't know clear.

As far as the nudibranchs go, the pictures on this thread are excellent and there should be no more doubt what they look like. Yes, you see them crawling around. They are extremely difficult to spot in the zoanthids because they adapt. They take on the color of the zo colony that they're in and the little ruffles on them look just like the skirts on the zoanthids. If you look carefully, though ... you can see them. The polyp will be closed but you still see a ruffle like a skirt ... hmmm .... look close and you will see that it is the nudibranch instead of the zoanthid. By the time you see them crawling on the glass of you your tank, your zoanthids are probably full of them and sheltering eggs as well.

They don't build tubes. You must have something else. Try Dr. Ron's forum, but you'll get more help from him with more specifics ... a picture would be ideal.

Good luck!
Cathy

[Speckled Grouper]

I have the tubes too, I don't believe they are nudis. I think they are some kind of worm that catches food by releasing a spider like string. I have found it very difficult to find the nudis, they take on the colour of the zoo they are eating. Also, when I dip, nothing seems to happen in the first 3 minutes, then they start emerging...

[reefkeeper59]

Turn tank lights out,room light out, wait several hours. shine flashlight on zoo's. If they are there you should spot them. Hard to see during day, hide in skirts. They are nocternal.

The do get on glass at night. Thats how I found mine. Not a sign of them and then one day fifty or so on the glass, early AM.

I had a lot of tubes in a zoo colony. They wher soft tissue and whitish looking. Spounges. I pitched the colony rather than working for weeks to rid. It was a all brown colony and I didn't want spounge to spread too others colonies.

[thrlride]

Here's another decent photo of one. I don't see any zoo's closed up but I have pulled out 5 of these over the last month.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/thrlride/Salt%20tank/DSCF1884.jpg">

[reefkeeper59]

These are extremely common hitch hikers. I'm thinking a chem company would have come up with something by now. I spoke to one and they said no miricle cure. lugol's super strenght iodine is only thing available. It is a dip only, so it becomes a project.

I'm a certified member of the INTERNATIONAL DIPPING SOCIETY.
A trulely prestigous group, If I must say so myself.

After my first breakout of these pest, realizing that superstrenght iodine kills them, I've dosed my tank with Kent Marine Iodine weekly. There reproduction seems to be deminished considerable.

[thrlride]

After posting that pic I decided to take a closer look at my few zoo colonies.

One in particular that isn't quite the same had 6, I repeat SIX nudis on it! I dipped for 5 minutes and pulled these nasties off. I may see two more on a different rock but I don't quite feel like pulling that one out yet.

[thrlride]

Wonderful... 4 more were found and eradicated.

[thrlride]

Are these guys only going to be on zoo colonies or frags or hiding in other locations?

I have some zooanthids with lots of other coral on the same rock, how would diping that work?

[reefkeeper59]

pretty much just the zoo's. They can eat on some spounges. They will travel in search of food however.

[thrlride]

Originally posted by reefkeeper59
pretty much just the zoo's. They can eat on some spounges. They will travel in search of food however.

Yeah, I found one on a rock in the middle of the tank. I pulled out four more today now that I am looking closely for them.

[reefkeeper59]

I'm about to give up on this hobby. It sucks. Now there is a simular nudi species that eats SPS. I have $5000 in sps. At least.

[thrlride]

Wonderful...

[Drewcipher]

You have the SPS eating nudi too now? I guess this makes the case for quarantine tanks. Sorry you have been having so much trouble. Did you ever look into anything that might eat them, besides the wrasse? I know they are poison, but it seems to me that if nothing eats them, they would overrun a reef. There must be some critter somewhere that has evolved to help keep them in check.

[reefkeeper59]

Originally posted by Drewcipher
You have the SPS eating nudi too now? I guess this makes the case for quarantine tanks. Sorry you have been having so much trouble. Did you ever look into anything that might eat them, besides the wrasse? I know they are poison, but it seems to me that if nothing eats them, they would overrun a reef. There must be some critter somewhere that has evolved to help keep them in check.

Exactly, There wouldn't be a zoo left in the world. Seems that with no control they would be so thick that reefs would never survive.

I don't have the sps type yet. Just read a thread about them. Tons of info shows up when typing "zoo eating nudibranch" in the search engine.

nudi's are the chicken of the , I mean AIDS of the sea.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by reefkeeper59
I'm about to give up on this hobby. It sucks. Now there is a simular nudi species that eats SPS. I have $5000 in sps. At least.

Got a link for that one? I know about red bugs and the clear acro eating flatworms, but nudis? Damn.

[Drewcipher]

Do we know the actual name of these nudis? I am looking for predators and have found that sea spiders are known to eat some species of nudi. I will look for more info, but need to know the scientific name of the nudi we want to eliminate. If anyone knows, please post it. I will keep looking as well.

[David4039]

When I got my nudi hitch hikers I went back into the LFS that I got them from and they swore up and down that they had never seen one. I spent the next two days looking over their tanks (I'm sure they were annoyed). I found one and pointed it out to them and now they have been spotting them like crazy. They suggested a six line wrasse to eat them. I really think it is a fish to fish kind of thing wether or not they will eat them. I did spot my blue legged hermits eating some of their eggs today though. That is a good sign I think. I caught two of these things and stuck them in a baby food jar. In less than 48 hours there were well over 20 egg clusters. The LFS has had them in that jar for another 48 hours and the eggs are everywhere, plus the adults are still alive. These are some tuff guys. Nudi's and cockroaches will own the world!

[Drewcipher]

I have found so far that sea spiders eat some nudis, and there are even some nudis that eat other nudis. Haven't got all the details, but maybe we can get some more people looking.

[thrlride]

That's a good idea to put them in a jar. When I catch some more I will start putting them in there to see if I can get some to hatch.

[David4039]

I need to get my jar back from the LFS. Knowing my luck that is some un-named Nudi and they will take credit for it LOL! Seriously though anyone found the name of this thing? Anyone tried going down the billion pics on seaslug.com??

[Drewcipher]

I tried, but I only got a little way so far...a very little way. I had to put it on hold to clean my FW tank.

[crpeck]

Why don't one of you guys with the clear pictures post them over in Dr. Ron's forum and ask for an ID? It would help all of us to know what they area and if there is any other way to fight them.

I'm still finding them and turkey baste them out when I do. Problem is that my post 40 reading glasses dependent eyes can only see them when they're big unless I happen to catch them on the glass. I've been waiting to get through tax season before I start the dipping ordeal again.

Let us know if Dr. Ron has any info.

Thanks!
Cathy

[Drewcipher]

I found an old article by Dr. Ron on an old Reefkeeping magazine, It is an an Aeolid, but not sure we will get the species.

[Speckled Grouper]

My "post 40" reading glasses don't do it for me...I use a GIANT magnifying glass and a flashlight, feel like Sherlock Holmes...

[David4039]

What do you think? Could this be it??

http://www.seaslugforum.net/display.cfm?id=13593

[thrlride]

Looks like it to me.

[reefkeeper59]

http://www.medslugs.de/E/mssmain.htm

Opistbranch nudibranch?

[FragFarmer]

definately this one. Phestilla melanobrachia
http://www.vibrantsea.net/images/phestilla3_anilao25.jpg

They retain the coloration of what ever zoanthid they are snacking on .

[reefkeeper59]

http://www.easttnreefclub.com/articles.html

[Drewcipher]

Reefkeeper

I found that article in my searching yesterday. I used to use gloves, but got lazy and haven't been. Kind of makes me think I should go back to them.

[reefkeeper59]

same here.

more!
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-07/sp/feature/index.htm

[reefkeeper59]

Caution Caution Caution

http://www.easttnreefclub.com/articles.html

[OneDayMatt]

http://www.easttnreefclub.com/articles.html - I'm not sure how much I'd worry about this article. It sounds a lot like a panic attack. I know, I had one once a long time ago. I thought I was dying from a heart attack, limbs were numb, heart racing, blood pressure rising. But, I didn't squash an nudi at all. I'm just saying, take it with a grain of salt.

[ReefGirlSara]

Is this one I should be worried about?

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/sararuder/IMG_4161.jpg

I can't tell if it is the same thing. I just got a little rock covered in zoas from a reefer who is downsizing. There was a lot algea in his tank, and when I got home I realized the zoas weren't opening and had little cap like algea covering their closed polyps. I've never had a problem with zoas in my tank - but I've only had about 40 total zoas for about 6 months. I will post some pics of what they looked like when I got them, and what they look like now that I have removed the algea caps.

[ReefGirlSara]

Oh, I forgot to mention that the pic above is of one that fell off the new zoa rock when I picked it up to groom the algea off of it. It's about 1/8 of an inch, at the most, and at the time of the pic it had been out of the tank for about 20 minutes - still slightly alive. I think it was lighter in color when I first pulled it out of the tank.

Here's a pic from when I first got them:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/sararuder/IMG_4040.jpg

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/sararuder/IMG_4140.jpg

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/sararuder/IMG_4141.jpg

[ReefGirlSara]

When I pulled the "algea caps" off they kinda resembled flowers, they had 'petal' like feathery arms that cover just the top of the closed zoa, and they have a 'stem' like part that extends slightly down inside.

In the first pic listed above, I hadn't done anything to them yet, and almost all of them had these brownish green algea caps on them. Before the second pic, I put them in an area of high flow and removed a few of the algea caps, in the third I think I took a few more off.

[ReefGirlSara]

This is what they look like now, a few more have opened, I picked all the algea off that I could.

BTW, Anyone know what these zoas are called? The green on the skirt really glows in the actinic light.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/sararuder/IMG_4165.jpg