blue rings again

[Absint Reefer]

how big do they get and do they adapt to the aquarium very well I know their deadly not interested in keeping them just curious

[reeferkid]

they are quite small i.e. 3-5" maximum, pretty but poisonous.

[Absint Reefer]

I know their poisonous but it's only if they bite you with their beak

[OctoMonkey]

carson, try reading some of the back posts on BROs, they are quite informative if heated :)

[Gonodactylus]

Maximum size of H. lunulata is a mantle length of about 5 cm. Usually adults get to 3-4 cm.

There is considerable debate whether the beak actually has to break the skin for venom (TTX) to enter the system. I can tell you from personal experience that Blue-ring venom can penetrate the skin without their being a break in it. Fortunately for me, the dose was very small and the effects were localized.

Roy

[Absint Reefer]

man that's small how would you feed something that small

[Absint Reefer]

Also Dr. Roy could you please tell me your experience on getting bitten like where, when, how, and what did it feel like sorry but I'm really curious

[Gonodactylus]

I wasn't bitten. The TTX was in the water that the animal was shipped and died in. The primary effect was slight to moderate parathesias in the hand and arm that came in contact with the water. I was stupid enough to fish the dead blue-ring out of the bag of water without using gloves.

Roy

[brandoug]

I worked in a LFS in early 90's. I was obsessed with octopi. My long awaited dream came true one day when my request to a supplier who had a reputation for the near impossible sent me my first blue ring. He cost me $9. I put him in a well established 55g. reef setup with no regard for the other inhabitants. Within several weeks it had consumed every ornamental, benefical or otherwise inhabiting crab and shrimp in the system. I didn't care, he was fat and happy and so was I (happy, not fat). After that I supplemented his staple of saltwater mollies with a weekly supply of small crabs and other crustaceans from the "sludge" in the bottoms of the boxes and buckets of LR we would get. I knew well his potential, but feared him little. He was very active (mostly early and late in the day) but as soon as the hood for the aquarium was opened he would head for his hide out, an abandon shell that had once housed a good sized hermit crab (one of his first victims). This allowed me tank maintenence time and kept us from coming to odds. I had that one for over two years and he never got much bigger than the quarter sized head that he had when I got him. One day he didn't come out to eat and I found him in the enterance to his beloved shell, dead. I presume this was from old age as their life expectancy is only around 4 years. Over the next few years I kept many other strange animals and built up quite a stock in the tank until one day that same supplier called and told me he was sending me a suprise with our next shipment. That suprise (which he charged me $36 for) was three more blus rings. Common sense kept me from offering them at the store so I took all three home. One was in bad shape on arrival and died during acclimation. The other two I put into the main system but kept in their shipping containers while I frantically began setting up a second tank. I worked late into the night but was unable to finish the setup because I needed some plumbing supplies and additional salt. The next morning I checked the tank before heading out to get what I needed and was amazed that both shipping containers were empty, thus proving to me that octopi can fit through anything their beaks are smaller than. The vent holes in the containers were less than 1/8" in dia.! I found them quickly enough. They were locked in a life and death struggle as the larger of the two was trying to conren the smaller one. They racer over the rocks, in and out of crevices and finally did battle under a rock shelf. The larger one enguled the smaller ones head in his matle, there was much tentacle thrashing and finally the bigger one moved on leaving the dead loser behind. In reflection I was amazed that he did not eat it. He then set up house much like the previous one had. Eating first all of my crabs and shrimp, then supplementing his diet of mollies and weekly crabs/shrimp with all of my other tank fish! The only animal he was never able to capture was a porcelin crab that lived on a good sized carpet anomone. He tried, constantly! And that was his demise after about a year and a half of trying. One day my housemate called me to tell me that she had seen him try to get that crab again and when he did the carpet got him. She said it touched the anomone and when it did it was all over. That it struggled to get free for a few seconds and then went still. Then the carpet, aided by the crab, ate him. In reflection I have always regretted having kept them. Not only do I feel that I shortened their life span and limited the expansion of their species but I also regret all the fish (and not just for the money) that I sacrficed to them. I have a couple of pics that I scanned of the two that did battle but the file size exceeds the 50K limit. If someone can tell me how to make them smaller I'll post them.

[Absint Reefer]

save your pic's as j pegs that should shrink the file size

[brandoug]

they're already jpeg. What sucks is they're only about 10 k to big for the requirement. The wife is an IT geek and I'm checking to see if she can help me as well as checking this thread about picture file compression.

[brandoug]

After much head scratching here you go!!! Keep in mind these were scanned from pics taken years ago. http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/82059blue_ring__Small_.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/82059blue_2__Small_.jpg

[Absint Reefer]

they are so tiny I can't belive it

[brandoug]

yes they are. These two were smaller than the first one I had. The larger of the two shown was only about the size of a quarter. That being said I never saw evidence that they needed to use their venom. Sure they killed and ate animals that were 2 or three times their size but they always seemed to fight them in titanic struggle type fashion. The venom, I understand is very quick acting and they seldom got a meal that didn't put up some kind of fight (except maybe the mollies). I saw one of them fight with an extremely large coral banded shrimp for what had to be two hours and he more or less chewed it open the way a praying mantis does rather than poisoning it and the devouring it the way a snake does. I also had a fire octopus that I caught in florida that would kill in much the same fashion, grab hold, cover with the mantle and imobilize with the tentacles, then just start eating. One thing I can say for the Blue ring is that you will never see a more beatiful or amizing color change artist. They have an amazing array of color changing ability and can do it in an instant. One thing that I seldom read or hear about that I've theorized from observation is that the color changing is taxing physically for them. I am aware of their poor oxygen exchange rate and am sure it is somehow related but when they were enticed into multiple color changes over the course of 10 minutes or so, they would retreat and hide for unusually long periods of time. They also very seldom swim unless under duress. They prefer to walk. All in all, they're an amazing animal. I rue having kept them but after spending today remembering what it was like to observe them I'm kinda glad I did.

[Absint Reefer]

do you have a pick of the fire octo

[brandoug]

unfotunately no. I thought I did but they've either gotten lost or my x took them.

[Absint Reefer]

how did you seal the top of the tank so that tiny octo could'nt get out

[brandoug]

Other than a closely fit glass hood, I didn't really in any case. With the Blue rings they never seemed to make the attempt to get out. With the big one, he would come up and sit on the prefilter, reach his arm out a cutout and take mollies and goldfish from the bowl that i kept on to of the hood but never showed any other desire to roam. I kept them in a reef tank and had pretty pristine water conditions so I attribute that and lack of offending fish to keeping them comfortably inside.

[Absint Reefer]

how often did you feed your bluering and how big do fire octo's get and are they venomous

[Gonodactylus]

Blue-rings display when stressed or excited. The withdrawal is not a function of metabolc demand. More likely the animal feels threatened and withdraws to a safer location.

We feed our blue-rings a daily diet of stomatopods. They can eat a prey item of about 1/4 their size daily.

Roy

[Absint Reefer]

you feed your blue rings stomatopods is'nt that mantis shrimp

[Gonodactylus]

yes. They are typical Hapalochlaena lunulata prey.

[brandoug]

Roy,
I don't question your statement regarding the stimuli that promote the color change. I would like to discuss the statement about it not being physically demanding to them. Do you have anything to support this statement? I ask because I have observed them suffering oxygen depletion from chasing their dinner around and retreating/ acting in much the same way that I have seen when they were only doing their extended color displays. ie... after doing a dozen or more rapid color changes prompted by only the introduction and removal of a small mirror they would be "breathing" in a fashion similar to having swam or "run" around the tank 5 or 6 times. Both instances would bring on the retreat into the hideout where they would not re-emerge from until at least several hours had past. Normally they didn't retreat into their holes to the point where they couldn't be seen. Under normal, unforced circumstances, they would not act this way when enticed into changing color be it from feeding or from the mirror.
Also, I once met a man who claimed to have had kept a blue ring as well. He said that his was capable of a complete color change. I clarified with him that he meant that the whole body became one color and he agreed. Mine could change all of their body parts but not their circles. No matter what color they were they still had the rings. When I told him this he said that his could become all one color. Have you seen this? Did one or the other of us have some sub-species? Or was he just full of it?
Also, is your purpose in keeping octopi in studying their relationship with only mantis shrimp? Do you do any work with them and the other Malacostraca?(other than feeding them to them). If so what kind ?

Carson,
I fed my blue rings weekly with whatever shrimp and crabs I could find in the live rock boxes. Whatever he didn't grab as they were put in became snacks for later. I also kept a 29g. tank full of converted mollies that I would put a net full of in until they were gone, Usually about two weeks. I think some of the mollies (especially the fry) fell victim to corals as well.
As for the fire octopus. I've only heard the old guy who saw me catch him call him that. I believe it was really an Octopus Vulgaris or common octopus. The old guy said they called them that because if it bit you it burned like fire. He got much the same diet as the blue rings although I went for the larger stuff out of the LR boxes. I even posted a sign on the store wall asking for mantis shrimp!!! (sorry Roy) He also ate raw Florida shrimp from the local fish store but his favorite was goldfish. I think he thought they were both pretty AND tastie!!! His head was about the size of a hardball when I found him. When he died it was a little larger that a softball. I had him for over 2 years. I don't know how large they grow in the wild.

[Gonodactylus]

There are several undescribed species of blue-ring. A couple that I have collected in northern Australia and Indonesia appear to be able to completely close down their blue rings. I have one right now that has this ability. Until we do the molecular analysis of these animals, we really won't understand species relationships, but there certainly is variation in the ability to hide the blue rings.

To my knowledge, no one has looked that the metabolic cost of chaging chromatophore and skin texture in octopus. It is actually and interesting idea, but it would be hard to tease apart general stress and excitement from the cost of just changing the chromatophores.

Most of my research is on stomatopods, but we occasionally work on pygmy octopus including blue-rings when we can get them. I usually have a couple hundred stomatopods around and as they get old and have been in the lab too long to be useful for behavioral research, they make good food for the octopus.

Roy

[brandoug]

Iteresting stuff.
Unfortunately I don't have the animals to further observe this phenomenon. I think it would be interesting work.

Have you seen the reports from the Ala Wai Canal? I here they have some large specimens coming outta there.

[Gonodactylus]

Maximum size for Lysiosquillina maculata is about 40 cm. I've followed some animals in Hawaii for 20 years and these are large, but not as big as L. maculata gets.

Roy

[brandoug]

Have you eaten them?

[Gonodactylus]

Many times and many species. Squilla mantis is popular in Italy, Lysiosquillina in the Indo-Pacific, various squillids are eaten in Japan, and Odontodactylus scyllarus is often served in Indonesia.

Roy

[Absint Reefer]

Dr. Roy what size tank do you keep the bluerings in?

[prsguy]

Originally posted by brandoug
I worked in a LFS in early 90's. I was obsessed with octopi. My long awaited dream came true one day when my request to a supplier who had a reputation for the near impossible sent me my first blue ring. He cost me $9. I put him in a well established 55g. reef setup with no regard for the other inhabitants. Within several weeks it had consumed every ornamental, benefical or otherwise inhabiting crab and shrimp in the system. I didn't care, he was fat and happy and so was I (happy, not fat). After that I supplemented his staple of saltwater mollies with a weekly supply of small crabs and other crustaceans from the "sludge" in the bottoms of the boxes and buckets of LR we would get. I knew well his potential, but feared him little. He was very active (mostly early and late in the day) but as soon as the hood for the aquarium was opened he would head for his hide out, an abandon shell that had once housed a good sized hermit crab (one of his first victims). This allowed me tank maintenence time and kept us from coming to odds. I had that one for over two years and he never got much bigger than the quarter sized head that he had when I got him. One day he didn't come out to eat and I found him in the enterance to his beloved shell, dead. I presume this was from old age as their life expectancy is only around 4 years. Over the next few years I kept many other strange animals and built up quite a stock in the tank until one day that same supplier called and told me he was sending me a suprise with our next shipment. That suprise (which he charged me $36 for) was three more blus rings. Common sense kept me from offering them at the store so I took all three home. One was in bad shape on arrival and died during acclimation. The other two I put into the main system but kept in their shipping containers while I frantically began setting up a second tank. I worked late into the night but was unable to finish the setup because I needed some plumbing supplies and additional salt. The next morning I checked the tank before heading out to get what I needed and was amazed that both shipping containers were empty, thus proving to me that octopi can fit through anything their beaks are smaller than. The vent holes in the containers were less than 1/8" in dia.! I found them quickly enough. They were locked in a life and death struggle as the larger of the two was trying to conren the smaller one. They racer over the rocks, in and out of crevices and finally did battle under a rock shelf. The larger one enguled the smaller ones head in his matle, there was much tentacle thrashing and finally the bigger one moved on leaving the dead loser behind. In reflection I was amazed that he did not eat it. He then set up house much like the previous one had. Eating first all of my crabs and shrimp, then supplementing his diet of mollies and weekly crabs/shrimp with all of my other tank fish! The only animal he was never able to capture was a porcelin crab that lived on a good sized carpet anomone. He tried, constantly! And that was his demise after about a year and a half of trying. One day my housemate called me to tell me that she had seen him try to get that crab again and when he did the carpet got him. She said it touched the anomone and when it did it was all over. That it struggled to get free for a few seconds and then went still. Then the carpet, aided by the crab, ate him. In reflection I have always regretted having kept them. Not only do I feel that I shortened their life span and limited the expansion of their species but I also regret all the fish (and not just for the money) that I sacrficed to them. I have a couple of pics that I scanned of the two that did battle but the file size exceeds the 50K limit. If someone can tell me how to make them smaller I'll post them.


That was a cool story by the way...

[neuman]

Wow blue rings are amazing!!, I want more info though, I take it a place for them to hide in your tank is a MUST, but could i get away with say just sum small substrate and say one big shell or something for it to hide in? The reason I ask is, I noticed in some of your pictures they were quite difficult to see against the rock, I would mainly like the species for its looks and if I cant see it its not much fun :o

Is there a minimum tank size for them? cause they seem very small!

Water temp! You said something about them in northern australia, they must like very warm waters then? could i get a temperature range where they would be happy? I live in Australia so I would be most likely getting species from Australia, if that makes a difference.

Water conditions! I know everything likes good water conditions, but how hardy are they? could I get away with say a 10gal tank with just live rock for filtration?

How many can you put in a single tank? or is it limited to just 1..

Thanks in adavance for taking the time to read and answer my questions!

[Gonodactylus]

There are several Australian species. The most common are H. fasciata from Brisbane to southeastern Australia and H. maculosa on the coast of southern Australia. There are two or three other species in the north and west, but they are undescribed. H. fasciata requires temperatures from 17 ro 22 C. H. maculaosa a bit lower. From my experience, they tend to spend much of their time during the day sitting on the side of the aquarium.

[rwhhunt]

Roy, Where do you acquire these hundreds of stomatopods??? Do you ever sell or retire any of your specimens to a private home?

[Gonodactylus]

Most specimens are collected at marine stations in Australia, Moorea, Indonesia, Hawaii, Panama and Florida. Unusual species or animals used in experiments where we need to maintain data on individuals are preserved. Surplus animals usually go to feed our octopus. Because of the nature of our funding, I'm not allowed to sell surplus animals.

Roy