New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

[dendro982]

I bought recently Dendro of incredible color - it melted within 4 days in my tank, only the shell with slime inside was left.
Other corals are without problems, water parameters are normal.
What can cause so fast deterioration?

One possibility is, that there was some mechanical damage, during shipping and carrying home - a lot of sclerites were shed to the bottom.
What else could be?

[graveyardworm]

I've had other soft corals succumb to a similar problem, ove the course of a day or two they literally melt leaving nothing but a pile of spicules. Probably an infection within the coral, and a complete shutdown.

[Steve Atkins]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9723478#post9723478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dendro982
Can you describe this plastic bin? I have the same problem with tank inhabitanta, dropping frags to the bottom.
The bin started life as a storage bin with small roller wheels and was designed for under bed storage. It is nothing special, just the right size. I drilled a hole in the middle of the bottom and put in an oveflow riser pipe that drains straight down into the sump. The inlet supply is just a piece of 4mm garden irrigation hose T'd into a main return line.

Steve

[dendro982]

Thank you both for the information!

David: I always suspect the water - like alkalinity. My mushrooms are sensitive to it (at least it seems so), could be particular preferences for non-photosynthetic corals too. If the coral was not in a good shape on arrival - nothing could be done...

Steve: Now I see, how the flow and security are achieved. I'm using soap holders on suction caps - much smaller scale :D

[zoozimmy]

wow

[xilofonx]

That' right!

_________________________________
bondarenko@sget.kaspersky.com

[reefgeek84]

Well, I will be starting a tank specific to this coral. I have many years in the hobby and feel I have the time, knowledge and determination to tackle this coral. I would love to give something back to this hobby and would like to do it, via this method. If I could give a little knowledge and help to keep a coral that is other wise "impossible" that would be awesome.

I have heard the arguments, of this coral can not be kept, etc. but like others have said, there was a time that we could not keep acropora in tanks. But now it is one of the biggest parts of this hobby. Everything has a learning curve and not everyone should try and beat this learning curve, but some people should try, because that is the only way anything gets better.

Despite what people say about keeping this coral in a smaller tank, I will be setting up a 33gal cube. I will keep mostly dendro's, but will have some Scleronephthya, alevapora, and gonipora...just to add a little more to this tank.

I currently have some dendro that I got from a local fish store, that had it for a month and it seemed to be doing and still is, but it is in my main 120gal SPS tank, and I really think it needs to be in its own tank.

I will be of course taking pictures and documenting everything in a thread, somewhere...may not be on here, but somewhere.

Thank you to all who have participated in this thread, it is a great thread and has lended some great knowledge.

[ziggy222]

it has now been one yr since i bought my Scleronephthya coral and it is now a meer shadow of what it once was.my biggest problem was the fact that hair algae grows on its rock and smothers it even when the rest of the tank has no algae.i solved this problem buy adding a sea hair to the tank that alows no algae to grow.what i have left of my Scleronephthya is just several specks with only one polyp each and a couple peices that have maybe 3 polyps.like i said,most of the damage was done by the algae which is now solved but i'm still very cautious about trying to keep this coral again.i guess i will just observe the small raining peices left and think very carefully before deciding whether to try keeping them again,but most likely i will not.

[mikekman]

Any new pictures from anyone here who has dendronepthyas or info? Want to keep this great thread alive!

Mike

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10017806#post10017806 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mikekman
Any new pictures from anyone here who has dendronepthyas or info? Want to keep this great thread alive!

Mike

Give me another two weeks and I will start a major thread on my success with photos of the 4 I have and more then likely more then that in the coming months. These are one of my main focuses on my new tank, I am just waiting on the details on getting it set up.

[ziggy222]

i can't get a good picture of mine .not much to look at anyway after a yr its now down to two tiny polyps sticking out of a rock, you can hardly see them.i put it in a cave now where its hard to take a picture cause its mostly just a bare rock.its funny how so many post photos of theirs when their new and healthy but they don't show photos of their slow decline or come back here an let people know when they die.it would be useful info for people trying to grow them.it would give them and idea what not to do and see it and also let them know how long they can expect them to live.

[graveyardworm]

I've got pictures of mine dying somewhere.

Reefgeek, when you start your thread post a link to it here. Thanks

[mikekman]

Can't wait to see pictures or any info from you guys.

I've been thinking of starting a nano tank devoted just to nonphotosynthetic corals like sun corals, dendrophyllias, dendronepthyas, chili coral, non photo gorgonias, etc. I think I might be very successful but will see.

This thread has been extremely helpful!

Mike

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10020682#post10020682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
I've got pictures of mine dying somewhere.

Reefgeek, when you start your thread post a link to it here. Thanks

I will for sure...

[Morgandy]

Here is some great eye candy for you all....the owner of this tank will post a write-up tomorrow or so about it all. I'm too tired to add more pics just now, organize, label, or make this linked page nicer at the moment, so bare with it. There will be a lot more pics and a flick posted too tomorrow that I'm working on.

The tank is part of a 500gal system, is non-photosynthetic, has a huge variety of corals and creatures! Enjoy... (and a lot more to come)

Non-Photosynthetic / Dendro System (http://www.quillworker.com/dendrotank.htm)

[sammy33]

I am looking forward to any updates or writeups about experiences with dendronepthya or other non-photosynthetic corals. Think of how much money we could save on lighting if we could figure out a good "Dendro Recipe". :D

One thing I noticed about the pics at the link Morgandy posted is there are no fish in any of those pictures? Is that true? No fish in this part of the 500g system? I did see a snail in one of the pics but no crabs..or fish?

This leads me to a question I have had. Would it not be wise to reduce the number of none essential animals to reduce food competition in a "Dendro tank"? It is not that cleaner shrimps, clever hermits and fish (who can reach anywhere) are all capable of stealing a meal...but that they will. Having no shrimps, crabs/hermits or fish in a "dendro tank" will leave a lot of food for the corals. That is corals that do nothing but eat and get no benefit from light.

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10027903#post10027903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sammy33

This leads me to a question I have had. Would it not be wise to reduce the number of none essential animals to reduce food competition in a "Dendro tank"? It is not that cleaner shrimps, clever hermits and fish (who can reach anywhere) are all capable of stealing a meal...but that they will. Having no shrimps, crabs/hermits or fish in a "dendro tank" will leave a lot of food for the corals. That is corals that do nothing but eat and get no benefit from light.

Dendro, eats very small particles of food and mostly phyto at that...most fish do not eat phtyo, so there is not much competition for it.

[Morgandy]

Video is up..Chuck will be able to answer your questions about his system. There are fish, rays, and a 3' eel, amongst other things (sea pen also!), which I didn't get shots of (not good ones at least).

Dendro/Non-photosynthetic reef system - Video and Pics (http://www.quillworker.com/dendrotank.htm)

[mikekman]

Great video! Get the owner to sign up on RC and start telling us what his secrets are for his tank. All the corals looked great. The gorgonias looked good.

[Kreeger1]

Chucks on RC, he just never ever seems to post. I've seen the tank in person a few times now and its a really interesting setup. The corals are growing and encrusting over the epoxy hes used to hold them down. Now if we can find a cost effetive way to feed the dendros that will be the big ticket!
Nice photos Amy!
Erik

[Stottlemire]

Whats going on everyone? My name is Chuck. The dendro tank Morgandy posted is mine, its a 180 gallon display with about a 380 gallon sump. Believe me this tank is a lot of work, but I will try to share as much info as I have on it
Chuck

[graveyardworm]

I can get this started, can you describe the flow in the tank and around the Dendros, how are the Dendros positioned in the flow? What are you feeding them, do you spot feed? What kind of lighting? What kind of filtration? How long has the tank been setup? What is the age of your oldest Dendro?

There will be plenty more questions, hopefully the thread starter Charles Mathews will see his thread is back in action. Thanks for coming here to discuss this.

[sammy33]

Chuck,
Glad to see you are having some success with this style tank. I look forward to hearing of your experiences.

[Morgandy]

I've sent Charles Matthews about 3-4 emails over the past 6 weeks regarding some questions, but unfortunately I don't think he has been following this still, or is just extremely busy.

One thing about the good progress so far with Chuck's tank, is that a couple times I still 'thought' I was ready to try some dendo's again, but of course I don't have that green-thumb, so when they started to fail, I'd give them to him, and they started to thrive and grow once in his system. Bringing them back from midway demise has been another 'testament' to his early-on nailing the requirements. I won't speak for him and what he's doing, so hopefully he'll get info posted soon.

Flow flow flow and positioning is a HUGE factor that can't be underestimated...the rest he can chime in on!

[Stottlemire]

To put answers to some of the questions.First the flow 3 6100 Tunze pumps at one end of the tank on a Tunze multi controller all blasting in the same direction. Feeding, now thats the story of this tank. Phyto feast by Reed Mariculture 60mls total over a 24hr period. I also add 40mls of Rotifers by Reed a day, these are the main foods I add. No I don't spot feed the corals. lighting is a pair of t-5s at 54watts each. A skimmer is the filtration. The system is about 6 years old it started as an acro tank. the oldest dendros are frags I started 6 months ago, I made the frags 1in and now here it is 6months later the frags are between 3.5 and 5 inches tall now. The corals are encrusting on the rocks. I hope this answers your questions David.
Chuck

[Siapin]

Chuck...can you explain why you made the sump 380, while the tank is only 180?

What is in the sump that you need it so big?

[Stottlemire]

Siapin
The reason in this system is the 300 gallon tank is used for delution. I have an 80 gallon tank set up as a sump and also more delution. They were on the original acro system I had.
When I decided to take on the new challenge with the dendros I thought out issues like excess foods and the more water the less the pollution impact from food.
I hope this makes sence
Chuck

[Siapin]

but if you aren't spot feeding, and just dosing the tank, then you have to use more food, right? or do you turn off the circulation for a while while the corals get to absorbing the food in the water column?

[Stottlemire]

Yes I do feed alot, but I'm also feeding all the other critters in the system to. when you look at the pics Morgandy posted theres a couple of black barrel sponges I NEVER purchased, but because I feed alot they are there and growing like a weed. My thought on this tank is probably diffrent then most. I am feeding the tank and hoping the tank will take care of the corals. When you feed animals like the dendros they can only take in some many cells of food at any given time so if the tank is being feed and water circulates through the system, enough food come back around. Right now I like what I see.
Chuck

[graveyardworm]

Do you feed the phyto manually or do you have drip system set up so its continuous?

At what levels are your nitrates, PO4, and any other parameters you regularly test for?

[Tactstat]

I reread my post and didn't state in such a good manner what I was seeing.

Part 1
As Applies to Dendroneptheas:
The flow I would have to describe as predominately tidal with power waves. People who have been on drift dives know what I am talking about. The tidal current will pull you along the reef face somewhere between 6' and 10' in a single linear direction; then a pause or small reverse flow (from large surface waves), lasting maybe 20-30 seconds and pulling you in the opposite direction maybe 1'-2'. Then the big surge hits again and you get pulled along the reef.

The other areas (with out a lot of dendros/gorgs/crinoids) were either near the surface with a huge about of wave surge, or in the protected lagoons with a slower gentler wave surge.

Part 2

On a side note I'll finally be setting up the dewdrop test tank I have been planning for almost 3 years, based on what I saw in Thailand. Woot!

Tank:
It will be a 65 gallon Sea clear II, with the filter area turned into a refuguim, and a HOB Remora skimmer.

Flow:
After watching the corals in the wild and checking out various public aquariums and MACNA events I think the way to go to test out if "Flow is the end all cure" this tank will be set up as a psuedo-kriesel or horizontal gyre tank. The Siam aquarium in Bangkok inspired the idea with one of their jelly tanks. I am going to added curved plastic pieces to the corners and middle of the tank providing two circular flow areas. (Tank is aprox twice as long as high, so by dividing it in half I get 2 almost perfect circles)

The dendros will be attached to a dilled PVC pipe running horizontal in the center of the gyre so the coral will stick out into the laminar flow (mimicking a jelly tank).

3 converted Maxi jets (from MJmods, to be consistent and repeatable) will be hooked up to a Lighthouse controller. 1 pump left, 1 pump center and 1 pump right. Each placed flat on the bottom of the tank, and pointing vertically up.

On a 6 hour time scale either the outside pumps or the middle pump will be on generating what I hope will be very similar to a constant linear and laminar tidal flow in a circle around the coral. Opposing that on probably a 10 min time table the outside pumps will turn on and disrupt the kriesel style flow to simulate the wave action I saw in Thailand.

I plan to play with feeding different things and different but this tank will primarily be to test the corals response to flow. I will be using the plaster of Paris dissolution test before the tank is turned to salt to see if I can get a reading on water motion in the tank.

I'll probably set up 5 or 6 ice cube tray pieces of plaster in the tank at increasing radius from the center of the horizontal gyre to measure the flow, and compare it to both a 0 flow container of water and then see about replicating the flow of a Hagan 802 power head at the required distance to hit 15 cm/sec flow.

I figure I can adjust the flow rate of the gyre to fit the speed I want about ½ way out from the center, based on how long the pumps are on. Ideally I’ll hit a sweat spot of 15 cm/sec of laminar flow 8-10� out of the center of the tank. That should be about perfect for the majority of branches on most of the dendros I see in store around here.

If that made any sense, feel free to comment! I'll try to get some Google Sketch images up in the next day or to, and I'll take pics of the tank and hardware once it all arrives this
Weekend!

I plan to set up both the lighthouse controller stats and a web cam online so people can watch, and then link the controllers readings to a SQL database so I can start a data track to monitor the way things go.

-Tactstat

[Morgandy]

Tacstat, I like the idea of such a unique setup to experiment with. That kind of thought seems to be what is needed, a novel approach looking at all angles rathr than just throwing them in a rather common setup.

I'm curious if the maxi-jet mods will be sufficient, so will be interested in your observations on that. I've come to really like the vortech pumps with the magnets holding them on (one is on outside of tank, the circulation head on the inside. Aslo,do you have links to some of the aquariums that show their setups? Have you seen dendro tanks thriving up to and past a 1yr mark? Would love to see your drawings too when you have them ready.

Also, Chuck showed me one of the DVD's where the dendro's were in cave over-hangs in the oceans, where it appeared very little surge or turbulance entered, so, the variety of flow may be a good test, high flow vs low.. Will this be plumbed into a sump, fuge, etc??

[Tactstat]

I have been looking into some of those tanks, actually. I like what I see too, but I am going to try to replicate the flow in particular that I saw where the dendros were growing.

It took about a year to decide on the kriesel/horizontal gyre flow tank (not sure really what the difference between the two is), and another 2 years to figure how to make it work.

Hopefully the gyre will have two effects. The first is of course the constant linear flow of the correct speed. The second is the continuous suspension of food in the water. Theoretically, due to the speed difference between the inside and outside of the horizontal gyre, suspended partials will be moved toward the center, lower flow area of the tank.

So the idea is to have a large volume of water, capable of absorbing the bioload of a high food intake and concentrating the food in a very small portion of the tank, right where the coral polyps are. If you have ever been in the center of a whirlpool and notice the small pile of debris in the center, that’s the effect I am going for. Hopefully I’ll be able to get videos with phyto to see if it works.

I don't know if the maxis will be powerful enough, but supposedly they'll hit 2000-2400 gph, at about 50$ a pump, it’s much more economical for a test than the Vortech. I wanted Vortechs, but 3 of them is 900$+ for 9000 gph. The Maxis were 200$ for 8000 gph.

I also didn't want to have to switch out control boards in 2 or 3 months!

I am thinking about having and SPS side and a Dendro side too. Since there will be two gyres, I am considering using one for SPS with a 250 Sunpod over it, and just letting the light spill over to the Dendro side, so there is no direct lighting over them. I did seem them out in the open under direct light, but down around 20-30' depths.

There will probably be no sump at the moment. I don't feel like drilling holes in this tank yet. That doesn't always go so good. There will be a 3-5 gallon fuge in the back of the Seaclear tank. These are the tanks with the built in area for filtration. The HOB skimmer will pull water out of the over flow chamber, and feed back into the area that used to house bioballs (I’ll have macro in there). I was going to use an ATS, but it won’t fit.

I'll get more details and a hopefully a detailed plan up online this weekend when its raining and I can't work on the stand anyway.

-Tactstat

[Tactstat]

I did see Dendros under some of the caves, and even what was probably polyp spawn on the rubble under the caves, but they never looked as full or healthy as those out in the open. Those areas were predomently covered in tubestreas, sun corals and whip corals, and white polyped gorgonians.

I did see in one cave the infamous blue berry gorg though. They were all very small, less than 6" or so tall, and I imagine were feed on things the limited wave action kicked up from the substrate.

As a side note, I never saw any dendronepethas in the sand where I was either! There were some that were growing on rocks several feet above the sand, but not in or on the sand.

Of course there wasn't alot of sand anyway. The reefs we were on were 90% rock structure.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10049419#post10049419 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Morgandy

Also, Chuck showed me one of the DVD's where the dendro's were in cave over-hangs in the oceans, where it appeared very little surge or turbulance entered, so, the variety of flow may be a good test, high flow vs low.. Will this be plumbed into a sump, fuge, etc??

[Tactstat]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/tactstat/psuedo_kre.jpg

Alright, not the best google sketch out there, but I think it gets the point across.

1) white horizontal cylinders are PVC pipe where the corals will be attached. 1 will have small live rock mounted to it, to hold SPS/LPS and a 250 Sunpod over it. The other will be left bare and the dendros will be attached directly to it, hopefully preventing the spread of bristleworms.

2) the short white columns are where the maxijets will go, pointed vertically in order to create the gyre effect.

3) Brown semi-transparent sections are what is going to shape the circular flow around the corals in the middle. I am trying to find a way to fill that space with rubble and small live rock.

Obiviously there is more to it, but this gets the idea across I belive.

Feedback?

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10053108#post10053108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tactstat
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/tactstat/psuedo_kre.jpg

Alright, not the best google sketch out there, but I think it gets the point across.

1) white horizontal cylinders are PVC pipe where the corals will be attached. 1 will have small live rock mounted to it, to hold SPS/LPS and a 250 Sunpod over it. The other will be left bare and the dendros will be attached directly to it, hopefully preventing the spread of bristleworms.

2) the short white columns are where the maxijets will go, pointed vertically in order to create the gyre effect.

3) Brown semi-transparent sections are what is going to shape the circular flow around the corals in the middle. I am trying to find a way to fill that space with rubble and small live rock.

Obiviously there is more to it, but this gets the idea across I belive.

Feedback?

Very interesting tank set up...Seems that there will be alot of unused space, is this correct?

[Tactstat]

Unused? Define unused... Not alot of rocks? Yeah most of the reef is really water, only the bottom is rock *grin*

Now I admit there isn't alot of room for corals, but they can be mounted in any position, all the way around the PVC pipe.

I feel that this tank maybe be better at utilizing all the space within than a standard tank. There shouldn't be any dead spots and with less rock there is more room for water flow and more room for corals to grow.

Now when everything dies, and I get mad, I'll probably say I wasted to much space!

[Morgandy]

Why aren't you going to just do dendro's in it? Mixing in SPS and LPS in it seems to be risking the main intent of attempting these guys, and varying the requirements of the whole tank which has been one of the reasons for their failure over time. Just curious..

Also, what size will the tank be, and what about the sump?

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10055609#post10055609 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tactstat
Unused? Define unused... Not alot of rocks? Yeah most of the reef is really water, only the bottom is rock *grin*

Now I admit there isn't alot of room for corals, but they can be mounted in any position, all the way around the PVC pipe.

I feel that this tank maybe be better at utilizing all the space within than a standard tank. There shouldn't be any dead spots and with less rock there is more room for water flow and more room for corals to grow.

Now when everything dies, and I get mad, I'll probably say I wasted to much space!

I am just saying, that it seems that you will not be placing anything on the ground and stacking it. Those PVC's will only allow a limited amount of corals on them and you have to consider grow out...unless you are having more PVC then the pic shows.

There is nothing wrong with this set up at all and looks like it will offer very good flow around the corals.

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10056454#post10056454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Morgandy
Why aren't you going to just do dendro's in it? Mixing in SPS and LPS in it seems to be risking the main intent of attempting these guys, and varying the requirements of the whole tank which has been one of the reasons for their failure over time. Just curious..

Also, what size will the tank be, and what about the sump?

How do you know that the varients of the tank which contain SPS and LPS is the reason for Dendro's failure?

These animals seem to like the same water conditions as SPS do. But they like to be fed more, so feed heavy, big skimmer, and water changes have kept mine happy. Mine are actually growing quite a bit.

I will be getting pics soon of my corals and them growing.

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10056454#post10056454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Morgandy
Why aren't you going to just do dendro's in it? Mixing in SPS and LPS in it seems to be risking the main intent of attempting these guys, and varying the requirements of the whole tank which has been one of the reasons for their failure over time. Just curious..

Also, what size will the tank be, and what about the sump?

More to my point...
http://www.sfondideldesktop.com/Images-Nature/Underwater/Underwater-0012/Underwater-0012.jpg
Notice the Softies, along with the Hard corals...Kind of tough to make out, but you can see it if you look hard enough. They are not on the same rock, but for sure in the very same area.

Also, if you watch blue planet, seas of life, you will see reefs that contain all types living amongst each other.

So I think it can be the same in tanks...

I am not sure where the myth came from that SPS, LPS and Softies do not mix in the ocean, but they do. I think people worry due to fighting amongst corals, so maybe that has something to do with it.

[Tactstat]

I might need to apoligize to Reefgeek, my last post might have been harsh and it wasn't intended to be!

You picture is great though! It shows almost exactly what I am trying to do! I am sure you noticed that most of the dendros are attached in such a way as to have water movement almost all the way around them. Thats what I am trying to do.

Since this is a test tank, I don't mind losing alot of normal reef tank space to just open water either. I have a feeling though, that if the corals open to their full extent, they will be streching almost 3/4 of the way between the PVC and the edges of the tank.

I am also unconvinced about mixed reefs, I saw hard corals and dendros next to each other quite often in 20-30' of water, thats both LPS and SPS. Above about 20' it was either SPS or encrusting stuff (including mushrooms and the like).

I will be looking at SPS for a couple of reasons. The first is they are pretty *grin* If the tank isn't pretty I won't take as good care of it, and thats bad for my test. Thought I saw a variety of corals together on the reef, I will be avoiding most other softies. I want as little chemical warfare as possible, so there most likely won't be and leathers or shrooms.

Well 1 of my big boxes is due in tonight, and it should have my controller, and hopefully my polish kit of for the acrylic! Then I can really get this thing started.

[Tactstat]

Oh! I forgot! There will be no external sump. The seaclear 2 is designed as an intergral reef ready tank, that normally holds bioballs in a wet/dry filter. That will be used as a refuguim and place for equipment.

I belive I posted more detail on that in one of my previous post, but I will try to alter that Sketchup image to show this better!

Might even be real pics this weekend!

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10057266#post10057266 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tactstat
I might need to apoligize to Reefgeek, my last post might have been harsh and it wasn't intended to be!

You picture is great though! It shows almost exactly what I am trying to do! I am sure you noticed that most of the dendros are attached in such a way as to have water movement almost all the way around them. Thats what I am trying to do.

Since this is a test tank, I don't mind losing alot of normal reef tank space to just open water either. I have a feeling though, that if the corals open to their full extent, they will be streching almost 3/4 of the way between the PVC and the edges of the tank.

I am also unconvinced about mixed reefs, I saw hard corals and dendros next to each other quite often in 20-30' of water, thats both LPS and SPS. Above about 20' it was either SPS or encrusting stuff (including mushrooms and the like).

I will be looking at SPS for a couple of reasons. The first is they are pretty *grin* If the tank isn't pretty I won't take as good care of it, and thats bad for my test. Thought I saw a variety of corals together on the reef, I will be avoiding most other softies. I want as little chemical warfare as possible, so there most likely won't be and leathers or shrooms.

Well 1 of my big boxes is due in tonight, and it should have my controller, and hopefully my polish kit of for the acrylic! Then I can really get this thing started.

No need to apologize at all...Thanks anyways... I am very excited to see this tank in action.

I am going the same route as you, the only softies I am having is the dendos. They are the only ones, I really like.

So keep us posted on all of this.

[reefgeek84]

I just chatted with Chuck...He is a really nice guy. Very knowledagable.

He said that his Dendros, did not survive until he brought up his nitrates to levels that will brown or kill SPS. I am noticing growth with min. nitrates in my tank. It was interesting comparing notes.

Hopefully more of us will try and figure this out and start to keep these with success.

I will start to get pics once the new tank is up and going, and of course run a log with it.

[Tactstat]

Intresting... I'll be watching things closely with this tank, and I'll probably start my own web log, since I have the lighthouse anyway.

You guys might like this. This is the planned schematic for the tank.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/tactstat/65gallonSeaClearII.jpg

[sammy33]

Tactstat - I think the effort you are putting into this is amazing. I see you have thought a lot about flow. I think the gyre style flow with the long cycle times will give you the results you are looking for.

Have you thought about your feeding plan? Are you planning on doing any sand stirring?

[Tactstat]

Alright 2 part post, first is the feeding plan. There will be no sand, at all in the system. Normally I go for deep sand beds personally, but with a plastic tank, and 3-4 really big pumps blowing in circles its just a bad idea. I'll be looking into the sponge feeding described earlier in this thread. As for artifical foods I'll be taking a que from gonipora.org. they have a really nice food description area, and nice size ranges on what I think I'll need.

Alright Part II: How to find out if my flow is right.

Since we already seem to know what a good flow rate is for feeding our favorite coral, the question is how to do we get it. I want to hit ~6"/sec flow rate across the entire feeding area of the coral, in a broad sweeping pattern.

I know the gyre tank will provide the style of flow, but how do I find out how fast its going? This is the process I intend to follow, and I would love comments!

According to Mr Dana Riddle, in his article Quantifying Flow Rates in the Reef Aquarium, he measured a Hagen 802 powerhead as having a flow of about .5' at about 15". While this a great measurement it doesn't help me in measuring flow speed in a circle.

Mr Richard Harker provided just what I needed in his article Measuring Turbulent Flow In Reef Tanks. His idea of using plaster of paris dissolition will allow me to measure my comparative flow rate at different radius from the center of the gyre. I can use a control vessel to measure dissolution in a stagnet tank, and 15" away from a Hagen 802, which I just happen to have.

The dissolution in front of the 802 will allow me to tell how much plaster dissolves at 6"/sec. From that I can compare the tiles at various radius in order to find the perfect speed around the circle.

Alright some links, and the first fitting pic, and I think thats enough for this post!

Measuring Turbulent Flow In Reef Tanks
http://web.archive.org/web/20000831181254/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/aug/features/1/default.asp

Quantifying Flow Rates in the Reef Aquarium and the Requirement of One Acropora Species
http://www.breedersregistry.org/Articles/v4_i3_riddle/riddle1.htm

And the pic!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/tactstat/PICT0327.jpg

[Tactstat]

Anyone out there seen this Abstract before?

It states that Dendronephthya nipponica is a primary source for a number of bad allergies....

Not to meantion that this is off the coast of Japan... not the warmest waters in the world.

I'll have to get gloves after all!

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowFulltext&ProduktNr=224161&Ausgabe=228019&ArtikelNr=53807

[glassbox-design]

sorry if this has been mentioned, but any news on the use of the fauna marin polymer / enzyme foods specifically made for filter feeders etc... last i heard they were haveing good success with dendros using a bacterioplankton system and those types of foods...

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10098353#post10098353 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
sorry if this has been mentioned, but any news on the use of the fauna marin polymer / enzyme foods specifically made for filter feeders etc... last i heard they were haveing good success with dendros using a bacterioplankton system and those types of foods...

Can you point me in the proper direction to find this food? Thanks.

[graveyardworm]

http://www.aquariumobsessed.com./

[Kolognekoral]

I have been using various Fauna Marin products for the last 6 months. All have merit, so far. The Ultra Mins plus Ultra Organics are dosed daily to my aquarium to feed the corals and lower animals. I use Ultra Seafan for my Crinoids and Gorgonians, along with the more typical Cyclopeze. Also, I use some fine dust foods from Timo, another European company possibly not yet in North America.

The polymer food, Ultra Pac, has fans in Germany, but some do not like it. I think it will generally depend on your animals and feeding habits. It is more of a food carrier than a food of itself. It is mixed with other Ultra products to create a 'Custom' slime for filter feeders. I, also, have used Ultra Clam for filter feeders and my animals are all still healthy and growing.

It is difficult to know if any given product is the answer, as every animal is a bit different. I have had great success with Crinoids, but less with Dendros. My biggest problem with Dendros/Scleros has been bristle worms attacking them! They never get a chance to settle in.

hope this helps,

:D

[Jens Kallmeyer]

The polymer food, Ultra Pac, has fans in Germany, but some do not like it. I think it will generally depend on your animals and feeding habits. It is more of a food carrier than a food of itself. It is mixed with other Ultra products to create a 'Custom' slime for filter feeders. I, also, have used Ultra Clam for filter feeders and my animals are all still healthy and growing.

It is difficult to know if any given product is the answer, as every animal is a bit different. I have had great success with Crinoids, but less with Dendros. My biggest problem with Dendros/Scleros has been bristle worms attacking them! They never get a chance to settle in.

hope this helps,

:D [/B]


HI Jamie

The UltraPac was never intended as a food, just as a carrier, but apparently it works as a food as well, however in a rather indirect way.
A friend of mine is preparing the stuff together with some other Fauna Marin Products in a beaker and lets it sit on a nice and warm T5 pendant for a few hours (up to one day). After it becomes really yucky and slimey he uses it for the corals. His impression is that the reaction of the corals is even better. UltraPac contains a mix of different polysaccharides. Most probably bacteria start breaking that stuff down, so perhaps not the UltraPac is causing the feeding response, but the bacteria munching on it.


Jens

[charles matthews]

Sorry I've been away, quite busy. I was able to speak to Chuck Stottlemeyer recently, and have proposed that we sponsor an early report for general publication. His tank is at seven months and demonstrates some important points:

1) Drip phytoplankton Reeds' Shellfish Diet continuously.
2) Vodka method for nutrient control and possibly bacterial bloom as food. Some turbidity occurs on a regular basis. Never stop the feed drip!
3) Temp max at 76, no deviations greater than 1 degree to 77 during the seven months this tank has been up.
4) Linear flow.
5) Frag to 1 inch branchlets on arrival.

There are other aspects to his tank that may be important, and I may not have gotten the points exactly right. But, I think Chuck's basic outline here is about what I have seen over the years. His tank is at seven months, but what's important here is that he has excellent polyp extension, the dendros being expanded about 20 hours/day, and he has dense polyp formation and clear growth. Like acro keepers, I believe we should value polyp extension- and recovery of previously regressed fragments (to some extent, as they do do into a regression due to transient factors and may spontaneously come out again after somewhat skinning over) - as a positive sign worth reporting.

I curently have some scleros that are over 2.5 years old, but they are just nubbins- they have been through many experiments. I prefer these to new specimens since I feel I know them personally and any improvement or growth is easily appreciated. I am currently working on automatic live phyto and rotifer drips, using the SS strain of Brachionis rotundiformis, which is smaller than the usual rotifers; I am also using UVB reptile lights to grow the algae, as I was suspicious that the phyto we have been using is deficient in vitamin D, and that this may be needed for flagellae activity and may be relevant for colony collapsing syndrome. That's just speculation, but I had become suspicious that either phyto was not what they were eating (that is, maybe Widdig was right, although his methods of truncating branchlets prior to testing seems extermely doubtful relevance to me) or maybe the phyto was deficient in vitamin D since it was grown under flourescent rather than UVB emitting lights. I am tryingto replicate Joyce Wilkerson's outside tub method of culturing rotifers, except inside, using two tubs in sequence, one for phyto and one for rotifers, with an aquiliter pump pushing through the two tubs connected by rigid airline tube, then overflow to the aquarium. I am using no aeration, and instead of a UV filter for the incoming water from the tank, I am not using anything so far- the stagnant water seems to select for self-suspending algae that are heavy in lipids, and also is suitable to the rotifers (like the outside tubs). So far, so good, but too early.

Again, hope Amy and Chuck will be interested in writing this up-

Charles

[Morgandy]

I've posted new pictures that Chuck took recently.

Non-photosynthetic/Dendro Tank (http://www.quillworker.com/dendrotank.htm)

I am going to go back and date all previous pictures, and then start putting the same species side by side so we can see the progressive growth and changes. I'll also be sure to get all species names possible from him before I upload them.

He'll have to answer any questions you have!

thx..

[Kreeger1]

Nice Pictures again Amy, It sounds as if we've got a front row seat to a break through in the reefing hobby. I should probably stop over chucks house more to see how things are progressing
Erik

[Serioussnaps]

Wow..this thread is quite inspiring. Chuck's tank is unique as one can be IMHO.

[Stottlemire]

Hi everyone
just wondering if anybody is still playing with the dendro systems maybe get some new pics posted

[Morgandy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10561610#post10561610 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stottlemire
Hi everyone
just wondering if anybody is still playing with the dendro systems maybe get some new pics posted

Ok, I'll cough some up! :D

These of course are from the tank of Chuck himself...hit my website/redhouse to see more. There are a couple very short video clips at the end of one page 1 of the dendro pics, and I'll get some more clips posted soon.

I'd like to hear also how some of you guys are coming along, if you have more news.

A partial tank shot:
http://www.quillworker.com/072507_c24_w.jpg

Frag cut mark:
http://www.quillworker.com/roxasiafragcut.jpg

Frag:
http://www.quillworker.com/roxasia_frag.jpg

The tank really is breathtaking. There have been several of us who have given him dendros/scleros/swiftia's/gorgonians, on and on, that have been near death, and they come back to life and start growth in the dang thing!

[salty joe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10035351#post10035351 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stottlemire
To put answers to some of the questions.First the flow 3 6100 Tunze pumps at one end of the tank on a Tunze multi controller all blasting in the same direction. Feeding, now thats the story of this tank. Phyto feast by Reed Mariculture 60mls total over a 24hr period. I also add 40mls of Rotifers by Reed a day, these are the main foods I add. No I don't spot feed the corals. lighting is a pair of t-5s at 54watts each. A skimmer is the filtration. The system is about 6 years old it started as an acro tank. the oldest dendros are frags I started 6 months ago, I made the frags 1in and now here it is 6months later the frags are between 3.5 and 5 inches tall now. The corals are encrusting on the rocks. I hope this answers your questions David.
Chuck

Wow, what a nice looking tank! And only a couple hundred watts of light.

Can you tell me what kind of substrate you are using?

Thanks,
Joe

[Kreeger1]

A pair of 54 watt t5's sounds more like 104 watts of light not a couple hundred :)

[Stottlemire]

Salty Joe
the substrate is just an araganite with some small shells and gravel it seems to work well.

[salty joe]

Thanks, how deep is it?

[Stottlemire]

The sand is about 3 inches. Do you have a Dendro system?

[salty joe]

No, I'm just along for the ride. Thank you and everyone else for the sharing of info.

Joe

[dendro982]

I know that this is Dendronephthya thread, but many of you are keeping other non-photosynthetic corals as well. Can somebody help with advice on specifics of scleronephthya keeping?

So far I was lucky with non-photosynthetic gorgonians and Christmas tree worms, now trying to add baby scleros to the system. I have few of them for a few months, two startes to grow a little. Now added one more rock withs smallest scleros.

As I can see from this thread, the temperature is preferably lower, around 77F, but at what level should be alkalinity and nitrates? Phosphates - be unmeasurable, right?

Should be filtration and skimmer be turned off during feeding, how long should be cycles on and off, or filtration is working all the time and just the amount of the food should be increased, may be 4x, to compensate their removal by skimmer?

Thanks.

[Stottlemire]

Dendro982
Do you have a tank set up just for non-photosynthetic corals?
These corals as well as others like them like more nutrients.

[dendro982]

Do you have a tank set up just for non-photosynthetic corals?
Yes, I have established tank, holding only Chili corals and Diodogorgia with (likely) Siphonogorgia non-photosynthetic gorgonians. 6g, no light, equal size sump with LR and macroalgae. Micron filter sock between them.
The problem with this tank is that this baby sclero started to decline, when the tank become unlit, before that it had 18W PC. Could be coincidence, of course. And the chilis with gorgonians are using the different size of food, close t 600-800 micron, mostly dried Cyclop-eeze. The small-polyped corals are just bombarded by this large food.

This tank is small, as most of my tanks, except 90g.

90g could be used too - it's low light, high nutrients tank, holding messy fish, fed 3 times daily very well. I tried chilis there, but they opens regularly only in a dark tank. Baby pink scleronephthya was here for almost an year, no visible growth, despite of abundance of the finest food particles and proper laminar(ish) flow from Seio poweheads.

Because of this the new, orange baby scleros, are in established 10g tank with anothers fine filer feeders - Christmas tree rock with Spirobranchus worms, and new non-photosynthetic gorgonians - tangerine Swiftia, blueberry (likely Acalycigorgia) and with finest intense blue polyps (likely Guaiagorgia).
It can be counted only as filter feeders tank, because porites and baby Tridacnas there require the good light.
This tank also receives multiple feedings daily, but in smaller range - 10-250 micron to frozen baby brine.

I may use any of these tanks, or a not used 20g/64L extra high tank (will be problem with access for a cleaning bottom) or 20g/64L long (can't make the laminar flow of more or less equal intensity along the tank, yet).

The tank with large particles feeders has high nitrates and phosphates (80 and up to 1 ppm correspondingly), that are reduces by massive water changes and PO4 removing media, Alk is stable at 10-11 dKH.

Fine filter feeders tank has relatively low nitrates and practically no phosphates (10-20 ppm NO3), Alk drops all the time, usually at 7-8 dKH, and had to be added frequently. Lives on water changes too, less massive. Has an almost equal size side sump and a good skimmer.

90g dirty tank with spitting fish and regularly spawning Tubastrea (a lot on baby colonies across the tank), has medium nitrates 20-40 ppm and medium phosphates (0.25-0.5 ppm), that are removed by PO4 removing media. Alk is stable at 8-9 dKH. This tank has the a skimmer, rated for 200g.

All are bare bottom.

My apologies for a long post and the small tanks (lack of space).

My concerns are about:
- what alkalinity is preferable, also if dendros kept dying until nitrates were raised - will this be applicable for a scleros too? What about phosphates? I can keep them at any level, including total removing by RowaPhos.
- after reading posts about keeping non-photosynthetic tanks, I prefer to keep LR in the sump, after filtration, so it will not be clogged by particulate matter, and the main tank will be cleanable. This also reduces housing for bristle worms, who plaque the rock, to which scleros are attached, and now they are hiding under shells, the gorgonians are attached to. Big broblem.
- it seems to be reasonable to keep the corals, feeding by different particles size, in different tanks, and feed each group by properly sized food to exclude irritation by a large number of large particles, beating their surface.
- would like to hear any thoughts on keeping the food suspended for along time (other, than plankton kreizel) and how do you remove them, when they eventually settle on the bottom, under LR (moved there by flow) .
- the last is about filtration or skimming on-off during feeding: is skimming is working all the time?

Thank you.
I do realize, that you may not have much time for typing, the short hints to the point will be perfectly OK.
I'm tracking information for non-photosynthetic corals systems for 1.5 yrs, general considerations are already in my bones and blood ;)
Keeping the oldest chili for 1.5 yrs, and Christmas tree wirms with Diodogorgia - for an year.

[Kreeger1]

New pic of the above dendro frag
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/dendrofrag.jpg
In a diferent tank now :)
Thanks Chuck!
Erik
BTW I saw your dvd Amy, great work I was really impressed

[Morgandy]

I've posted new pics of Chuck's tank (R/C - Stottlemire), taken 1st week of September. I still need to organize some side-by-side comparisons of growth rates over the months, and post the pics I did of his frag plugs and some other things. As usual, the tank is looking gorgeous!

http://www.quillworker.com/dendrotank3.htm

There are links for the first 2 dendro pages from that one if you haven't seen them yet.

[sammy33]

Chucks tank is the best dendro/non-photosynthetic reef I have seen yet! :rollface:

I would love to see more pics of Chucks setup and desriptions of the techniques (feeding and flow, etc.).

[Kreeger1]

Sammy just read the last couple pages, theres info on his tank there

[pnsnowboard]

that is amazing


i work at a lfs and we have been keeping a red dendro for about 4 months everyday when i go into work i use a turkey baster to spot feed it zooplex and phytoplankton
it has great polyp extention and it seems to be doing very well

[Kreeger1]

What type of phyto are you feeding? and zooplex is 800 microns, I'm guessing thats to large for dendro's. Probably good for sea fans though. I'm no pro at this, Just learning as I go so I could be wrong.

[pnsnowboard]

the phyto is marine snow i think it is phytoplankton

the dendro seems to be doing really well

[Stottlemire]

Phytoplankton is phytoplankton, and marine snow is marine snow, they are diffrent. I belive Dendros eat more phyto then anything else, also turkey baster feeding is not going to be the best way to feed them. the polyps are so small that after a few cells of food is captured and swallowed,the shaft or thoat backs up and the polyp can't take any more food in. After about 20 mins. I have then observed the same polyp feeding again.

[Kreeger1]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/dendro.jpg
new one I got :)

[GoTakuF1]

Cheers to everyone for a fantastic thread! If you guys don't mind, I'd like to share my experience with a dendronepthea coral. This scleronepthea was given to me by a friend that's upgrading his tank. He originally received it from GARF over a year ago. Though it survived, it never thrived in his tank. I wanted to see if I could give it a go. Here is a photo of the coral three weeks after I received it:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e388/Gotakuf1/unknown.jpg

Since then, it has shown noticable improvement in polyp extension and even slight growth. This photo was taken a week after the above photo:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e388/Gotakuf1/Scleronepthea10607.jpg

I hope to maintain its health based on the experience and knowledge gained from this thread. Cheers to a magnificent group of corals!

[Kreeger1]

Frag pic taken around a month and a half ago
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/dendrofrag.jpg
Base is kinda skinny due to size of frag
New pic taken today 10/07/07
You can see the base getting thicker and more polyps have grown. Not positive the thick base is a good thing forsure, but it does look to be growing to me and others that have scene it a few times.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/dendrofrag10-07-07.jpg

[graveyardworm]

The sucess is simply amazing Charles. Thanks for your continueing efforts. I've been thinking about and trying to devise a way to continuously drip a mix of live phyto and rotifiers as I work on expanding my fish room and tank system, but I'm still a ways out.

Now I'm wondering how this method of feeding can be applied to the average tank if it even can without high nutrient levels. Seems as though th benefits would be great with all corals but who knows.

[dannyfromholland]

Good write up Charles and congratulations Chuck with the one year mark !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers
Danny Dame

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-02/feature/index.php

[Kreeger1]

Congrats Chuck, interesting read Charles!
Erik

[dendronephthya]

Thanks, Guys! Chuck built the building, I just pointed to it and Amy took the pictures. Chuck really deserves tremendous credit here.

If you are trying the "Stottlemire method", recommend getting a syringe pump (syringepump.com) for about $275. It will hold a 60 or even 120 ml syringe, no mixing or bubbling required. It's far and away the best method for continuous infusion of chuck's mix. I'm writing another article about this soon.

[reefnewbie54321]

cant wait to read part 2 ... I have a 120 'm building and I have had plans for a nonphotosythetic reef when this thread frst got started. Atkeast I have someones succss to work from now.

[Stottlemire]

Nice article Charles, the tank is OK to.

[dendronephthya]

The congratulations from Danny and David are especially welcome. I know both of you have worked seriously in azooxanthellate species!

I really think Chuck has done something special here; I place his tank alongside Stuber's and Tyree's historically. I'm afraid we will all have to call him Chuck "Dark Lord" Stottlemire.

I have always thought that the azooxanthellate species deserve their own forum. Perhaps it's time to consider moving this thread to a forum format?

[Kolognekoral]

What a great step foreward! I'm psyched! We all knew it SHOULD be possible and now a system to play with. new toys....new toys!

But seriously, a seperate forum for azooxanthellate corals would be a wise move. It would help move this work into the general spotlight, where others can benefit a bit more easily. Let's face it, this thread is a bit secret.

Congrats, guys and gal! Nice article for some nice work. And thanks.

[graveyardworm]

I am going to attempt to duplicate Charles methods and hopefully with the same results. The food is already ordered and a dosing system is in the works. Its amazing how similar my system is to Charles' setup without any communication. I've got about 500g's with a large sump, 180g display, and several other smaller tanks. This is going to be a great time as more people are able to keep this most difficult species. A local reefer and friend is also working with Dendronepthya and feeding methods so far he hasnt been doing it for too long but his results seem promising atleast short term. I find the fact Charles is also dosing Vodka at faily high level to be interesting. I'm assuming for the resulting bacteria as food and also to help with nutrient control. Very cool.:beer:

[Whalehead9]

So I have a question about the article. I am making an assumption that the food regiment is added to keep a certain concentration of food in the water. If I have a tank that I am starting up with considerably less corals than Charles's tank what would my feeding regiment be?

In other words I know that Bacteria will consume a certain portion of food and my corals will consume a certain amount and my skimmer will pull a large amount out as well. What will be the fastest consumer of food?

If its the skimmer then the food added will be the same for aquarium, but if the animals and floating bacterial cultures created by heavy feeding are the main consumer then how should you go about feeding a tank like this?

At current i am compiling all the equipment needed to put this together and circulation and feeding equipment are the last two things on my list. my main concern is overfeeding leading to a crash before I have fully stocked my tank. What do you think?

[Whalehead9]

Other questions

1. What kind of sand bed and how deep?

2. Is there a refugium?

3. How much skimmate is produced and what concentration of that skimmate is unconsumed phytoplankton and rotifers?


I am chomping at the bit about this and any info will be most appreciated.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

It is Chuck Stottlemire's method, not Charles's. Just wanted to correct this before the "Charles Method" sticks.

[Whalehead9]

sorry, my bad

[sammy33]

Great write up by Charles on Chucks success with his primarily Dendro, Sclero NPS tank in this months Reefkeeping Magazine. I think this was posted earlier in this thread but here is the link to the article again:

Progress in Azooxanthellate Reef Aquariums, Part 1- Dendronephthya Husbandry (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-02/feature/index.php)
by Charles Matthews, Chuck Stottlemire, Photos by Amy McBride Van Sickle

This article is great news and establishes a fantastic reference point or starting point for others considering this type of tank. I would like to see more specifics on the feeding cycle and skimmer use. I actually shut down my skimmer and then feed then tank. Chuck - Does your skimmer run while you are pumping the phyto?

(Note: I am officially coining the phrase NPS to use when discussing these Non PhotoSynthetic tanks. Kinda like SPS or LPS acronyms. Now we have NPS reef tanks. LOL)

[reefnewbie54321]

anybody have good sources to order some dendros and scelros from? Specifically looking for puprle ... red and orange and pink are everywere.

[reefnewbie54321]

lol NPS .... thats great

[dendro982]

reefnewbie54321: Lucky you! Orange and pale yellow scleros here. Two years since I had seen pink.

Let see:
sps - small polyped stony,
LPS - large polyped stony,
NPS - NonPhotosynthetic Soft or NonPhotoSynthetic?

:D Strictly speaking, they are:
NPC (nonphotosynthetic corals), NPSC, or azoa corals, as uk forum names them.
Does it matter? ;)

Need a curator for the Making filtration/skimming work (in this particular environment) problem for not-gurus. Any volunteers?
Where do you prefer to consult - here, in a separate thread (open it, post link to it, I'll come)?

If others do not object this problem-solving approach, in addition to individual setup projects :p

[THE_REEF_ORACLE]

Charles, Chuck and Amy -

Thank you SOO MUCH for this article. I have been looking forward to reading about Chuck's success for a very long time. After following this thread since it started and seeing this kind of progress, I finally feel confident at a serious attempt at Dendronepthea. I have dreamed about our community reaching this point since I was in college and I hope that I can replicate these results and add my experience as well. Well done Chuck!!

[TellyFish]

Exciting times... exciting times. I have always been sad when I see dendronepthea for sale at my LFS, but now I can pretend that they will make it into the hands of someone with an algea-drip.

[Morgandy]

Chip, quick hello..I'll have lots more to comment on about this whole progression of the article and such..but, just noticed TODAY it the 3rd anniversary of this THREAD!!! Congrats on that.

I'll have more to write later though. Good perserverence as I've been saying

[SERVO]

Charles,

I was always skeptical about the husbandry of these organisms. Furthermore, I have been a nihilist regarding the success of other hobbyists anecdotal tank accomplishments. I applaud you in your efforts to increase our knowledge about the sustainability of these azooxanthellate organisms and filter feeding organisms using methodical evidence based observational analysis. I was not aware that anyone was having any remote success in sustaining crinoids, basket stars and other azooxanthellate corals. I guess I spend too much time in the SPS forums.

I am a "lazy reefer" who prefers the set it and forget it method. I would love a tank filled with Gorgonians and Dendronepthia, but for me and my available time, I currently can not take on such tasks. There are no specimens more beautiful on the reefs than some of these organisms. I only hope that in due time we are all able to care for them.

Some day I'll join the club, but for now, I'll sit by curiously wishing everyone continued success.

Best of luck. Your tank is truly tank of the month.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a12/ryanreeves/P2260388.jpg

[Fredfish]

Nice article. I was hoping for some overall system schematics and some growth sequence shots. Hopefully that will come in a future article.

Some Questions:

Have you made any attempt to figure out how long food like the rotifers stay in the water column after they are introduced to the tank? I know you dose continually so there is always food in the system, but I have always wondered how long such foods might stay available for capture.

Have you been able to observe the capture and ingestion of rotifers by any of the corals? I know from my own efforts that it can be very very hard to tell when such a small organism is captured AND ingested.

I am also curious how close to the tank the food is located. Do you have long tube runs between the food source and the tank? Do you find that you get food acumulation in the feeder tubes?

I have been attempting to set up the same feeding system (but never quite get around to completing it) and have wondered how much of an issue food getting stuck and accumulating in the feeder tubes might be.

Looking forward to a follow up article or two.

[timwijgerde]

Nice article Charles!

I have recently written an article about Dendronephthya hemprichi in a dutch magazine, Het Zeeaquarium (the marine Aquarium).

It's nice to see someone creating a specialized setup. In the Netherlands, a similar system has been set up. It's actually a circular shaped acrylic tank, full of Dendronephthya sp.

For all you enthusiasts, here is the link to his thread:

http://www.zeewaterforum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45328&page=4

It's all in dutch, I hope the pictures will speak for themselves. Ask questions in English, and they will reply.

I am currently experimenting with a friend of mine, using Fauna Marin food (Ultra-Pac, Ultra-clam, Ultra min S etc) and several cultured algae species like Isochrysis and Phaeodactylum cornotum.

We are investigating whether this feeding regime will sustain healthy Comatula sp (feather stars), bivalves like Limaria scabra and several azooxanthellate gorgonians and Dendronephthya sp.

We will report about this in 6 -12 months in the before mentioned Dutch magazine. If the results are promising, we would like to publish our data here as well, and maybe in reefkeeping, if the editor is interested, of course.

Keep up the good work, and I would love to see a follow-up article on this.

[Fredfish]

Timw, it would be great if you could post any interim results or observations here as well. How about starting off with a description of your system (pics too??).

It seems there is a persistant interest in this very difficult to keep group of corals and it would be nice to reach critical mass so that we can have our own group.

Fred

[charles matthews]

Hello everyone, Charles Matthews here. First, let me emphasize that this is Chuck Stottlemire's tank, not mine, and I feel it should be called the Stottlemire Method in honor of Chuck's work and as a reference to his method. No doubt we will all be exploring variants on his approach.

I don't have time to respond to all the questions yet, and will try to do so soon. Am or Chuck may weigh in in a bit. Regarding the method of food dispersal, I have found that the use of a syringe pump is much easier than using a bucket and bubbler. A syringe pump is available from syringepump.com for $275 and will hold a 60ml syringe. A Luer-lock syringe (available for about 2 dollars from many pharmacies) will take an airline tube. I keep mine on a platform about six inches above the tank, with a short segment of rigid airline tube at the end. I mix 400 ml of Shellfish Diet with 200ml of RotiFeast in a beaker, and draw up 60 ml each 12 hours and clap it in the pump and I'm done. No mixing with tank water, no problems with suspension or clogging.

One thing I didn't put in the article- on first arriving, Dendros tend to autoamputate; they spontaneously drop branchlets. This process seems to be assisted if you go ahead and frag them generously soon after arrival. Anything that doesn't look right, go ahead and frag. They attach best to smooth surfaces within a few days; cyanoacrylate gel doesn't work. Those frag holders (I forget the name) work well; don't make the rubber band too tight. Put them in gentle flow for about three to five days, by that time they are attached; then move to higher flow. The frags may do better than the original colonies.

I'm interested in adapting Chuck's ideas to smaller systems and hobbyist aquaculture and hope to have another article soon.

[Fredfish]

Thanks for the replies Charles. Looking forward to more details on Chuck's tank when you have time.

I lookt at syringe pumps but never quite understood how they worked so I ended up picking up a 3 channel persistaltic pump pulled from some oem equipment for about $80.

One of the other reasons I chose the peristaltic pump was that I was (and still am) looking at dosing live phyto which will hold better nutrirional value in an aerated environment.

If you look online for used equipment, such a pump should be a very economical alternative.

Fred

[timwijgerde]

Hi Fred,

well, the specs on the Dendro tank (see link) are in the thread.

My friend's tank and mine are basic Berlin systems. The point is we simply overfeed, rather than shutting down the skimmer or using plankton-saving equipment.

We also use the Wodka-method and phosphate absorbant. I use active charcoal as well. My friend has some mangrove trees in his refugium.

My theory is that if the retention time of the food is above a certain minimum level, the animals are allowed to capture it.

It is, however, optimal to use either interval-skimming or a plankton-friendly nutrient removal system like algae or mangrove trees.

Detailed info will be released in the article, but I guess we can agree that the filtration and feeding methods are key here. Parameters like water flow and lighting are important as well, but secondary I think (except for D. hemprichi , which has high prey capture rates for specific flow rates. Certain sea fans which grow perpendicular to ocean currents might need very high flow as well).

Oh and Fred, I will try to post some nice pics soon of the animals. It is really nice to see a feather-star and gorgonian quickly respond to Fauna Marin food by opening up!

[Kolognekoral]

Tim, do you know the genus of Crinoid you are holding? I have had success with Dichrometra, the green-white species, but the others seem to require a different food, possibly bacteria in large quantites. Is anyone managing to maintain Himerometra or Cenometra in good health?

[Kreeger1]

not positive on the ID for the feather star in my tank. Its black with yellow tips and is mainly noctornal. I've had it for several months with no leg loss. I don't see any reason that it will not continue to fair well in my tank for years too come. I'm feeding the same foods as chucks tank and he's kept them for over a year at least.
Erik
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/featherstar01-28-08.jpg

[timwijgerde]

Hi Kolognecoral,

my animal is a Himerometra sp.

It does show some leg loss, but only the tips. It still responds well to feeding. I'll keep you guys posted.

[Stottlemire]

If your featherstar is loosing the tips of its arms it, is slowly starving to death. It might appear to be feeding, but probably is not able to take in the food your feeding.

Chuck

[Kolognekoral]

Tim, interesting! I have to agree with Chuck, when they loose their tips, something is missing. It has been theorized that these Crinoid types require a fine food, such as bacteria or phytoplankton, which are difficult to supply in sufficient quantity.

I have changed over to using the Zeovit method for my main tank and refugium, which has led to an increased bacteria population, plus the additional bacterial mulm put out by the filter. I may seek one of these Crinoids out and see if I have better luck with this system. In addition, as many in Europe I use Timo food 1 and 3, plus Ultra Marines Sea Fan, Clam plus Cyclopeze. I have started working with KZ Coral Snow, which seems to bring benefits.

I checked out the European resources for Reed Marine products and they are over twice the price in Europe as in the USA.. I'll be in the States this Spring-Summer and plan to bring some back to play with.

[dendronephthya]

Hello everyone, Charles Matthews here. I wanted to respond to Fredfish's thoughts about a peristaltic pump and life algae. I've worked with two different types of peristaltic pumps, several types of live algae, intermittent dosing of live algae, culturing of live algae myself, several attempts at developing a live phytoplankton recirculating system...

If you look at the dry weights of the commercial algae product and the amounts fed, this is equivalent to close to 50 gallons of dense live phytoplankton culture over 24 hours into a 180 gallon system (before dilution into the larger reservoir). Although it is tempting to use live algae, two problems arise. First, that much live algae produces pH changes and probably introduces algae culturing nutrients that were not consumed. Second, Shellfish Diet is a good nutritional mix of species, and I think that is important. It's hard to culture Isocrysis and the like. That is one of the insights of the "Stottlemire Method".

I find the syringe pump way easier than a bubbler and peristaltic pump; my lines get clogged over time.

Regardign "bacteria", I doubt Dendronephthya eat them. Fabaricius noted no significant procaryotes in the coelenterons of Dendronephthya in the Red Sea, even though they were an order of magnitude more numerous than eucaryotes. Also, although you could argue species and such, bacterial levels are probably elevated in reef systems compared to the natural environment . (I have references on these somewhere...Tyree has tested, so has Harker, ...).. so our goal isn't just to elevate numbers of bacteria so the dendros can eat them. It's likely, however, that the slime on the aquarium wall, and the associated copepod production and other microorganism stiumlation with the vodka addition, is helping as well.

[Siapin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11827221#post11827221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dendronephthya
Hello everyone, Charles Matthews here. I wanted to respond to Fredfish's thoughts about a peristaltic pump and life algae. I've worked with two different types of peristaltic pumps, several types of live algae, intermittent dosing of live algae, culturing of live algae myself, several attempts at developing a live phytoplankton recirculating system...

If you look at the dry weights of the commercial algae product and the amounts fed, this is equivalent to close to 50 gallons of dense live phytoplankton culture over 24 hours into a 180 gallon system (before dilution into the larger reservoir). Although it is tempting to use live algae, two problems arise. First, that much live algae produces pH changes and probably introduces algae culturing nutrients that were not consumed. Second, Shellfish Diet is a good nutritional mix of species, and I think that is important. It's hard to culture Isocrysis and the like. That is one of the insights of the "Stottlemire Method".

I find the syringe pump way easier than a bubbler and peristaltic pump; my lines get clogged over time.

Regardign "bacteria", I doubt Dendronephthya eat them. Fabaricius noted no significant procaryotes in the coelenterons of Dendronephthya in the Red Sea, even though they were an order of magnitude more numerous than eucaryotes. Also, although you could argue species and such, bacterial levels are probably elevated in reef systems compared to the natural environment . (I have references on these somewhere...Tyree has tested, so has Harker, ...).. so our goal isn't just to elevate numbers of bacteria so the dendros can eat them. It's likely, however, that the slime on the aquarium wall, and the associated copepod production and other microorganism stiumlation with the vodka addition, is helping as well.

Sir Charles, very insightful. I was wondering, since you have tested various methods, does that mean that culturing phytoplankton and dosing it in the aquarium is inadequate? Is it ultimately benefit-less to culture and dose live phytoplankton? It seems like you are eluding to that.

Are there any benefits to dosing live phytoplankton over dosing commercially "bottled" concentrated algae products? Or is it just not enough food for the invertebrates?

What about using natural sea water? Would there be any benefits in using that, as far as filter-feeding foods are concerned (ie bacteria, algaes)?

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11826481#post11826481 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kolognekoral

I checked out the European resources for Reed Marine products and they are over twice the price in Europe as in the USA.. I'll be in the States this Spring-Summer and plan to bring some back to play with.

you can buy direct and have it shipped to your door if you can get good shipping rates.

[Stottlemire]

GReshamH,

How are you ? I have not heard from you in a while. How is the set up you were working on going?

Chuck

[Kreeger1]

Looking at one of my newer dendros tonight I noticed a small white almost see through crab living in it. Has anyone else seen anything like that. I will try to get amy over to take a decent picture of it.
Erik

[sammy33]

I was thinking more about the feedings. These have to be done daily the way Chuck described in his article? How do you deal with vacations? :confused:

Could you somehow employ rotifer and pytoplankton culture stations set to auto-dose the tank? I was thinking about a small little plankton factory near the tank? :idea:

[timwijgerde]

Hi guys,

you are right, when the tentacles of the animal are breaking off, it's not a good sign. The animal was doing this just after, and during, transport. I think it is mechanical damage as well, being shiped in a too small container.

The breaking off seems to have ceased now. The big question is how it will do during the next months. My friend is seeing regeneration of broken off tips, however, I think this the easier Comatula sp.

I guess time will tell... it's great to see bivalves doing well, and seeing sponges and a Scleronephthya actually grow!

[beez]

I'm in the planning stage of my first nonphoto tank, and here's my latest lame-brained idea for an auto feeder that would allow me to leave town for a few days:

Staying consistent with Chuck's feeding method, how about placing a lidded plastic container inside an office refrigerator that would hold maybe 2-3 gallons of saltwater plus a couple weeks supply of Reed's shellfish diet/rotifeast. Keeping the mix inside the fridge should allow everything to be mixed together without necessarily being used right away. My idea was to then use a LiterMeter outside the fridge to dose the mix into the sump, and the motorized unit from an old kalk stirrer on top of the fridge with the stir rod inserted into the container through a tiny hole drilled in the top of the fridge. Anyone have any opinions on how well this would work?

I like the syringe pump idea but again I think a lot of people will need something that doesn't ALWAYS require daily attention.

For stirring the mix, an airstone attached to an air pump outside the fridge wouldn't be doable because the constant input of romm temp. air would make it impossible for the temp. to be kept low enough. I suppose it might be possible to put the air pump in the fridge but I'd be hesitant about the effect on the pump.

Eh?:D

[beez]

As far as culturing stations, I wondered the same but having gotten advice from those with more experience keeping nonphoto tanks it seems like it might be kind of impractical. If the numbers cited in the article about the equivalent amounts of shellfish diet and live algae culture are even close to correct, pretty huge cultures would have to be maintained.

[dannyfromholland]

@Beez Hi Beez there is a product (in Germany) which is invented to dose frozen food its based on a peltier element this will save you a fridge. If you follow this link you will get the idea. The article is in German but with babelfish you can get it readable I think.

http://archiv.korallenriff.de/frostfutterautomat.html




@ everybody else why would it be that very high unnatural levels off phyto are key factor in this experiment. Or do you guys think that the complete picture here is more important. I noticed a few things and more important in what order off importancy would everybody put point 1 to 5:

1)Constant PH at all times? ( I think this is impossible in a mixed photo<> non-phototank.)
2)Linear current.
3)Vodka dosing (elevated bacterio plankton?)
4)Constant temperature at 76 F
5) brachionis (rotifiers) and more important I believe brachionis eggs are also present in Roti-fest.


And mabey elevated levels off nitrate and fosfate play a role.

I'm not sure what other technical stuff is used like activated carbon or ozon.

Cheers

Danny Dame

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Beez, I actually designed a very similar feeding apparatus to what you are mentioning. I use a small dorm fridge to keep my shellfish diet and a mixture of roti-feast, golden pearls, and prawn ova cold. The mixture is held in a 2-liter bottle and added to the tank via a LM3 remote pump. The shellfish diet is held in a feeding pump bag and dosed via a medical feeding pump. I use an aqualifter pump to keep the mixture mixed. It draws in air within the fridge and pushes it into the bottle. This way I'm not adding much heat to the fridge. The aqualifter actually sits outside the fridge. The shellfish diet does not need stirring (unlike DT's) because it is soooo thick. In fact, you don't want to stir it this way because it will basically act like an overactive skimmer - foamy mush everywhere.

The problem that I've found with this method lies in the amount of travel the food has to take before it reaches the tank. You want to shorten the distance as much as possible and have the dosing fast enough so that it doesn't completely foul the food by the time it gets there. IMO, the syringe pump method would actually be much simpler and easy - except when you're going on vacation. I would imagine that most of the non-photo corals, gorgonians, etc should be able to manage a few days without such heavy feedings. But, if you're leaving for quite some time, you might do well to have such a system. Personally, I would try to find someone to handle feeding while I'm gone.

[charles matthews]

You know, I've been through all this stuff. A syringe pump is the best way to go, for a lot of reasons, for tanks of 180 gallons or less. The more mixing and bubbling and porting of liquids, the more problems you have in many ways.

For those of you who haven't worked with these mixtures before, you need to carefully review the mixture, the dry weight composition of the mixture, and the equivalent amounts, when you start thinking of substituting live phytoplankton. I just hate to see you wasting your time doing things if you haven't got those ideas in your head yet about the absolute dry weight amounts Chuck is infusing, and the importance of continuous infusion to maintain adequate cell counts. Also, please remember that Chuck has passed one year with this method- vary it carefully, it takes awhile to see why it works the way it does.

Danny: you raise an interesting point as to whether this infusion amount is higher than natural levels. On a clarity basis, it probably is a little higher than some crystal-clear areas in which Dendronephthya are seen. Yet, according to Chuck, and in my own tank, water clarity is good, suggesting that the cell count for phytoplankton is grossly not over 50,000 cells/cm3. I assume Red Sea cell counts are in the 5000-50,000 range; and in areas such as Thailand where Dendros are aquacultured, I have receiveed reports of obviously green tinted water.

So, I believe that is is necessary to infuse about 50 gallons equivalent of dense phytoplankton culture per 180 gallons per 24 hours to maintain a natural cell count!This of course means that there is a tremendous removal rate.

It would be interesting to see if this removal rate could be reduced, such as by removing the substrate.

[beez]

Thanks guys for the feedback!!! And thanks to Dr. Matthews for a great writeup on Stottlemire's tank and for establishing the best thread on RC:D

[sammy33]

Charles - can you set those syringe pumps to refill on the reset stroke? Seems like I saw an example with a two-way valve with two tubes on the end of the syringe so it could pull in new liquid on the reset stroke and then deliver the infusion on the down stroke. This could refill from the 600ml mix you did in the beaker and dose 10 times (10 days?) before you would have to remix it.

Combined with the idea of the attached fridge to keep the shellfish diet/roti-feast mix fresh for those ten days with the syringe pump set to auto-refill and you may be able to take a vacation with this style tank after all. :idea:

I don't know maybe I am reaching too far here with the vacation. :rolleyes:

I did read through the information on the shellfish diet concentrate. This stuff is quite potent. 5 different phytoplankton species and very concentrated with 1 quart replacing the equivalent of 475 gallons of "live phytoplankton"!

I see now that live cultures would be tough. Not only would I have to farm a bunch of phytoplankton but I would have to farm 5 different types and then be able to condense the harvest into a concentrate to avoid dosing large amounts of culture medium into the tank. Shellfish Diet seems to be a well designed and vvery robust phyto feed. I wonder what the dry weight is on the phyto-feast and dt's?

[dendronephthya]

Hi Sam

I don't know if a syringe pump or other device might be rigged with a reservoir and refrigerator for long term infusion. It gets very tricky trying to RELIABLY infuse very small amounts continuously over long periods of time. I havaen't been able to do it. No doubt, someone really clever will do it: I hope you can and tell me how!

The dry weight question is interesting, I don' tknow the answer, but I do know it's WAY lower in the live products. Roughly the dilution factor looks to be about ten to one going to a live product.

I personally doubt that the live product makes a difference in this method because the turnover is so rapid. If you dose phyto and watch, most of it is cleared in minutes to a few hours. There is presumably huge advestion into the substrate; also, I suspect, onto bacterial films and all surfaces, where it is promptly consumed. So, the retention time is not important in this type of setup as it is consumed so quickly.

I share your dream of a simpler system, with increased retention time of live algae. I continue working on simple systems without skimmers, using only inorganic nutrients; basically increasing primary production. I've really been researching this for years. But, bottom line: I haven't gotten it to work! It takes a lot of the fun out of it, but to keep these things, so far I've had to feed a lot, and clean a lot.

[beez]

Dr. Matthews (or anyone else),

Do you have any more details that have not yet been discussed about Peter Wilkens' methods? I'd especially be interested in more information about the specific foods he used and in the frequency of his sand stirring....

On that subject, my tentative plan is to use a faux hardbottom and no sand in my system, and provide a low flow settling area in the sump to catch detritus which will then be kicked up into the aquarium periodically via submersible pumps on timers. Any thoughts on what frequency would be best? Also, would this be as effective as stirring sand, or is the sand a necessary part of the equation?

[beez]

Or would it be best to just attempt to keep everything in suspension at all times?

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Anyone know if there is a good way to measure phytoplankton cell count in system water? Since maintaining a high phyto cell count in our systems seems to be one of the keys to success, having a good way to measure that would be very useful. Otherwise, how do we really know if we are doing enough dosing? I don't really trust a simple "x-amount of phyto per day per volume of aquarium" calculation. I don't want to wait to see if, four months down the line, the dendro shows signs of starvation.

One thing that came to mind was to use a hemocytometer. The problem with that would be making sure to measure just phyto and not every other small micron-sized piece of dust or organism.

[beez]

aninjaatemyshoe,

What the heck is a hemocytometer?:D

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Here is an explanation of hemocytometers:
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/methods/microscopy/cellcounting.html

It requires a microscope to use. Mostly people use it in cell culture studies. It is a simple but effective method for that application. More importantly, it is nice and low-tech; therefore relatively inexpensive.

[beez]

Interesting...thanks for the link!!!

[dogstar74]

Wouldn't it be quicker just to use an automated cell counter then? YOu could just take a vial and run it on a coulter counter or something and see what the particle count was. Just don't tell the lab manager :D And run a cleaning cycle after the count!

[reefkeeper2]

Unless a phytoplankton cell has the relative same size and chemical makeup as a white blood cell, I don't think the number you would get on an automated cell counter would be accurate. It would also really muck up the machine. A hemocytometer is definately the way to go.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11838145#post11838145 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by beez
office refrigerator that would hold maybe 2-3 gallons of saltwater plus a couple weeks supply of Reed's shellfish diet/rotifeast. Keeping the mix inside the fridge should allow everything to be mixed together without necessarily being used right away.

Reed advises against mixing Shellfish Diet with saltwater and storing it for any period, refrigerated or not. The second you mix it with saltwater it comprimise the product storage ability as well as you'll have settlement issues that aerition is not the solution (think protein skimmer ;) ). Reed also advise not to mix Roti-Feast or any of the IA or RN products with saltwater for anything but immediate usage.

Every automated dosing system that commercially employees IA/RN products does so with the actual product. The IRC (Intensive Rotifer Culture systems) all use a perislatic doser with a dorm fridge with a large container of IA.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11847612#post11847612 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
Anyone know if there is a good way to measure phytoplankton cell count in system water? Since maintaining a high phyto cell count in our systems seems to be one of the keys to success, having a good way to measure that would be very useful. Otherwise, how do we really know if we are doing enough dosing? I don't really trust a simple "x-amount of phyto per day per volume of aquarium" calculation. I don't want to wait to see if, four months down the line, the dendro shows signs of starvation.

One thing that came to mind was to use a hemocytometer. The problem with that would be making sure to measure just phyto and not every other small micron-sized piece of dust or organism.

SD cell count doesn't change much at all so you can pretty much count on the calculation being accurate for your needs. Commercial growers will check incoming SD for cell counts but only because their margin of error is FAR tighter then any we as marine hobbyists need to worry about unless we're running a very sterile breeding program.

You best bet would to take counts on what ever your going to be putting in, rather then tryign to count what is in suspesion. Unless you plan on learning what all the phyto cells look like, counting you cells in aquarium water is going to be quite a burden.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11831415#post11831415 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stottlemire
GReshamH,

How are you ? I have not heard from you in a while. How is the set up you were working on going?

Chuck

It's been shelved for the time being(way to busy right now). Other have though of the same set-up, just look at the Peltier device listed in this thread. Almost a dead ringer of what I thought of like 5 years ago :lol:

[aninjaatemyshoe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11864515#post11864515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
SD cell count doesn't change much at all so you can pretty much count on the calculation being accurate for your needs. Commercial growers will check incoming SD for cell counts but only because their margin of error is FAR tighter then any we as marine hobbyists need to worry about unless we're running a very sterile breeding program.

You best bet would to take counts on what ever your going to be putting in, rather then tryign to count what is in suspesion. Unless you plan on learning what all the phyto cells look like, counting you cells in aquarium water is going to be quite a burden.


I'm not so concerned about trusting the cell count of the product I'm using. I assume that, in the long run, I'm averaging what the product declares. However, I am interested in the phyto consumption rate of my tank. There are so many things in the average tank that will quickly consume the phyto that we add. There really is no way to calculate the rate of removal of phytoplankton. The best thing to do would be to measure it to gain an understanding the rate of removal for your particular tank. How else would we be able to know if we are in fact maintaining the target amount of cells/mL (aside from waiting to see if the dendro or whatever does well)?

I suspected that it would be quite tedious to try to measure phytoplankton cell counts. I was just hoping that there was some relatively easy method out there...

[Me No Nemo]

I've had a piece growing for almost a year now. It's inside a cave so hard to photograph. But, I've been using a product called Liquid Life and since I started I've noticed the piece seems much more inflated and seems to be getting slightly larger. It's pink and yellow and came attached to a rock. I don't usually take in such corals as I've always assumed they were doomed, but this came as a small hitchhiker on another coral and is hanging in there. I feed all three of the Liquid Life products 3-4 times daily as they are very easy to administer in a pump bottle. There is Coral Plankton, Marine Plankton and Bio Plankton. I do two squirts of each in the morning, one about noon, one at about 7 pm and two about 30 minutes after lights out. I started this as a food source for my corals in my old home tank and have continued with the new. In addition to the corals doing very well with excellent polyp extension (mostly SPS and LPS) that little dendronepthia is hanging in there.

[Kreeger1]

found this stuff the other day and I'm going to add it to the mix and see if it benefits the tank or not.
http://www.sfbb.com/88076.jpg

[Me No Nemo]

I also use the Reef Plankton you pictured above. I think it's a great addition.

[Kolognekoral]

I picked up this gorgonian yesterday. This is a shot without the violet polyps extended, which it does in strong current. The knots are interesting. From a commensal or parasite? Anyone familiar with this quite beautiful animal? ID?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/147577Gorgoniansp1-kl.jpg

[dtaylor123]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10133953#post10133953 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kolognekoral
I have been using various Fauna Marin products for the last 6 months. All have merit, so far. The Ultra Mins plus Ultra Organics are dosed daily to my aquarium to feed the corals and lower animals. I use Ultra Seafan for my Crinoids and Gorgonians, along with the more typical Cyclopeze. Also, I use some fine dust foods from Timo, another European company possibly not yet in North America.

The polymer food, Ultra Pac, has fans in Germany, but some do not like it. I think it will generally depend on your animals and feeding habits. It is more of a food carrier than a food of itself. It is mixed with other Ultra products to create a 'Custom' slime for filter feeders. I, also, have used Ultra Clam for filter feeders and my animals are all still healthy and growing.
:D

First, wow, what a great thread, I don't come to RC often. Chuck your tank is superb along with Amy's photography, kudos! Like some of us in this hobby, I too have aspired to keep non-photosynthetic corals. I was able to keep a flame scallop alive for close to three years and a dendro for 11 months, but my dendro was a failure as it never grew.

To the quotes above, I have been using Fauna Marins products for close to two years, I find them to be mostly effective. I tried the "fake coral mucus", the Ultra-Pac. It's like gelatin, the trick is to be able to load it up with food, it might work in Chucks feeding system. I like the idea, that in the ocean mucus carries food to other corals, so therefore ... you get the picture. Fauna Marin is a good company and they will help you if you ask. Their instructions are a little weak, maybe a translation issue?

I must say, I am surprised on the amount of phyto being fed. I didn't think that dendronephthya uptake phyto, I thought they were carnivores, I hope I am not showing my ignorance. Your syringe pump is awesome, the perfect delivery! I don't see it being to much of an issue if you are able to load a lot of syringes ahead of time.

My tank size is a 90 gallon (36"x24"x24"), I have two Tunze 6001's, currently a SPS, LPS tank, any thoughts on placing my 6001's on one side of the tank enleau of both on the back wall.

Also, where do you all get your NPS corals? I like most reefers discourage LFS's from getting them in as to 99% people they are un-keep-able. I understand if you choose not to say in this public forum.

Well, the work you people have done is incredible, I really thought one day I would be the one, conquering the NPS corals, glad you all beat me to the punch, kudos again. I hope to keep learning from reading this thread.

Dan

[Kreeger1]

Kolognekoral,
I have the same gorgonian with the same barnacle bumps, acroporas get them too. I would say no harm is done from them. I've noticed that this gorg doesn't like the super intense flow that the dendros like, I have it in i'd say medium flow area of my tank, medium to low actually.
I've fragged it already too, the tissue healed over in a few days.
Erik

[Kolognekoral]

Erik, thanks for the tip. I made a small frag to try in another area of the tank with less flow and it is opening just as well. I'll take a shot of the opened polyps today.

[Kolognekoral]

We should have a seperate forum/thread for NPCs. IDing and general info really doesn't belong on this thread, which is oriented toward Dendronepthya.

In any case, until we are so far, here is as hot of my new Gorgonian with the polpys open. Any tips and infor gratefully accepted!:D

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/147577Gorgoniansp1-2-kl.jpg

[Kreeger1]

here's mine, With the larger polyps it would lead me to believe that it can take in larger foods such as the nutramra uva I feed
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/newgorg.jpg

[dtaylor123]

Stunning Gorg's, are they from the Pacific? Do their polyps open both during the day and night? I agree about a new forum.


Dan

[Kolognekoral]

Dan, as I am certain Eric and I have the same species, I can safely say they stay open at all hours. Mine, which is only a few days in the aquarium, remains open 20 from 24 hours at least. Apparently it takes short pauses whereby all or almost all polyps close for 30 mins or so. Possibly a type of water exchange mechanism to clear the system and absorb dissolved nutrients. It is from the Pacific, but exactly where I do not know. I'll talk to the friend that imported it.

I've always been fascinated by Gorgonians and currently have this and another that are thriving. My other is brown-red with white polyps and very finely netted, much like an Atlantic gorgonian. It requires very high current, I have found, as I almost lost it when I went away for a few days and the small extra circulation pump got clogged with a few snails! I lost about half of the animal, but it is quickly recovering. I have it about 30cm/12" away from the output and it has its extremely fine polyps open most of the time, again, taking small rests inbetween.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I finally got the syringe pump I ordered. Just set it up.

Here is what the setup looks like:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa148/aninjaatemyshoe/SyringeDoser.jpg

The end of the tubing is zip-tied to one of my Tunzes:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa148/aninjaatemyshoe/DoserOutlet.jpg

The Tunze is directed directly at my dendro. So, the phyto and rotifers should be hitting it directly before going to the rest of the tank:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa148/aninjaatemyshoe/Dendro02-22-08.jpg


I'm wondering whether someone would be able to DIY a syringe pump. After inspecting it closely, the design seems pretty simple. It basically consists of a high-torque variable speed motor, worm gear driver, and rather simple mounting hardware. If you knew you were only going to set it at one specific rate, you probably could get away with using a single speed motor. You'd save a lot of money if you could. I searched heavily for a cheap-o one, but no avail. There is the $275 one at syringepump.com, which is apparently a really good price for a new one (most of what I've seen was $500 and well beyond). The one I got was $200 and used - still in great condition.

[Kreeger1]

Awesome Justin,
does that keep the food cold too? On a side note Dan got in the tropic marin foods. I added some to the tank and within 5 minutes all nonphoto stuff opened up, gorgs, dendros, and scerlos. So Im pretty excited about that. Im guessing from the amount it says to feed it should last 2-3 months for my tank but im probably just going to use it every other day or so or as a extra daily feeding, it won't replace what i'm using now
Later
ERik

[dtaylor123]

aninjaatemyshoe, cool pump! I think that one could be made a lot cheaper, designed specificly for this purpose. If I were to obtain one, I would plumb it into my return line from the sump, in my case, my sump is in my basement and I use a Hammerhead pump, but dialed way back, my thoughts would be to, drill a hole in the PVC return line and use that as the entry point. Since the goal is, to really feed the whole tank on a constant basis, what better way to have it being distributed than through the return lines. If refridgeration is needed, simply buy one of those small electric coolers and plce the syringe pump in the cooler with a hole drilled for the tubing exit. A cooler like this: http://www.target.com/Coleman-ThermoElectric-Cooler/dp/B000MRDFZI/sr=1-3/qid=1203737412/ref=sr_1_3/601-0311945-6764938?ie=UTF8&rh=k%3Acooler%20electric&page=1 . I did a quick search, I am sure there are a lot of them out there. What do you guys think?

Dan

[aninjaatemyshoe]

The way I'm dosing now will not keep the food in the syringe cold. But, the amount I'm using will only be out over a 24 hour period. Reed's site mentions dosing over such a period. So, I believe it should be ok for me to leave it at room temp for that long.

Erik, do you mean the Fauna Marin food? What specific stuff did you buy? I've been wondering about the Fauna Marin stuff, seems to be the choice for many of the European non-photo keepers.

[Kreeger1]

Nope, I got the brand new tropic marin stuff
http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/produkte/prdpic/phyton.jpg
http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/produkte/prdpic/zooton.jpg

I'd like to get some of the Fauna Marin food to though.
Erik

[lalc]

$30.00 SYRINGE PUMP

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/586/97046diy_pump_2.JPG

DIY a syringe pump. After inspecting it closely, the design seems pretty simple. It basically consists of a high-torque variable speed motor, worm gear driver, and rather simple mounting hardware

I had a link will try to locate it --some German guy posted it years ago---but you are right on the money---they are very simple to make----HINT # 1 take apart a a 24hr wall timer and you will see that with a little modification you can attach a syringe to the timer--like a cam--add a check valve to a T-fitting and you will have a self dosing pump as the timer will be sucking for 12 hrs then pumping for 12hrs amount can be calibrated by diameter of syringe and offset of the cam.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11918279#post11918279 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
Reed's site mentions dosing over such a period. So, I believe it should be ok for me to leave it at room temp for that long.

Go a link? I don'r recall the site saying it's OK to dose SD over a 24 hour period with out refrigeration. Refrigeration is recommended at all times.

[dtaylor123]

FYI, Dark Lord Coral, has free shipping on Fauna Marin products, not sure how long the promo is. Also, UltraPac their coral mucus food, which isn't food but a polymer gelatin like substance, if you buy it, you will have to really play around with it. The idea is to bind it with use-able foods and allow it to be the carrier to the corals. You will just have to figure out how to get it to bind. I have Claude's email address if any one is interested. I really like their products. The UltraClam, has a lot of phyto in it.

Where did you find the Tropic Marin foods? Have you used it yet?

lalc, to me using a syringe pump, allows food to always be pushed instead of pulled. Pulling food has the inherent issue of getting clogged up. Just my take on it.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

GreshamH, here is the link for the instructions:
http://www.reed-mariculture.com/microalgae/directions.asp

It mentions using gel ice in "warm environments" when dosing over a 24 hour period. IMO this is probably more of an issue with using an open container like they describe. I'm pretty much inferring that it is ok. I'm going to try to contact Reed's and see what they have to say. I figure that if the product can last for four months in the fridge, it should be able to handle 24 hours at room temp, especially in a more or less sealed environment.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11921202#post11921202 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
I'm going to try to contact Reed's and see what they have to say.

You rang :D

Refrigeration is recommended for the lifetime of the product. While it most likely won't be much of a problem if it stays under ~70f, if it goes above that it could lead to problems. Every system we employee dosing pumps on have the IA product in cold storage and only allow a short run of the line to be non refrigerated.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Ha, didn't know who I was talking with. So, do you have any recommendations for how I could keep it cold? Maybe I could place the whole thing in a Styrofoam cooler with packs of gel-ice.

[GreshamH]

That would most likely work if the insulation is thick enough. I would try it and run some tests in place just to see what temps you can keep it at.

Something I have thought of in the past would be to make a cylinder that is a little larger then the OD of the syringe that could hold a decent volume of gel ice in. You could have a couple of those and change them out daily. I would then wrap that cylinder in Nitroprene - http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/21819 - for maximum insulation. The beauty about that insulation is it's extremelly durable and won't break down over time like most others. I use it all over my systems, both in and out of water. I could send you some so you could see if it'll work in your application. Just email using the email link above ^^^^

[Kreeger1]

I picked up the tropic marin stuff from salty critter, www.saltycritter.com
So far I like the way the corals acted when I used it, not sure if they fed yet, but they all did open up
Erik

[dtaylor123]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11921737#post11921737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
Ha, didn't know who I was talking with. So, do you have any recommendations for how I could keep it cold? Maybe I could place the whole thing in a Styrofoam cooler with packs of gel-ice.

Did you see my earlier post? It should be a long term and relatively inexpensive solution and you would never have to worry about ice.

Dan

[aninjaatemyshoe]

The thermoelectric cooler looks like a good idea. I already have a mini-fridge that I think I'm going to try. The main issue that I see is that the liquid has to travel a distance between the pump and where it outlets at the aquarium. The way I have things setup at the moment, the pump needs to be on the left side of the aquarium. I believe, ideally, the outlet should be where I have it; at the bottom right side of the aquarium. I'm going to try some thick insulation for the tubing so that I can keep the temperature down before it exits.

GreshamH, you mentioned before that one should not mix Shellfish Diet or any of the IA or RN foods with saltwater. What about mixing two different products together, such as the Shellfish Diet and Rotifeast?

Charles, on an entirely different note, I noticed reading back a bit that you had been dosing silicate for awhile to boost diatom growth. Are you still doing this? I've been considering it for awhile as a decent way to spur growth of copepods and other small things that might help feed my tank. Also, I wonder if the diatoms themselves might help feed the dendros directly.

[GreshamH]

For long term storage I still would say not to do it, but for a daily use I don't forsee any problems.

SD has diatoms in it :)

I'm telling yah, I have the best insulation, just email me your full shipping address with daytime phone and I'll ship some out for you to try it. I even have it in tubes (3/4" ID w/ 1" wall).

[charles matthews]

Charles Matthews here.

Great discussions!

Some points:

1) Regarding Peter Wilkins, I've tried to find out about him. If you read his book, which is out of print, he stirs the gravel weekly and adds dust fine food twice daily and keeps them at low 70s temps. BUT- I haven't been able to confirm the rumor that he has kept them several years. I'm surprised that he hasn't published. If anyone has a way to get to him, please do so!

2) Detritus stirring- it doesn't work. I've built detritus/sand automatic stirrers, kept fish to stir the sand, manually stirred, squeezed sponges...I suspect that detritus quickly becomes less nutritious in our tanks. In any event, you can't keep NP corals with aquarim detritus, in spite of the rumors about it.

3) Hemocytometers: I'd be interested in anyone doing cell counts with these. But: as long as you are constantly infusing something in this range, I suspect you will be alright.

4) The cooling issue: Chuck has demonstrated that cooling isn't an issue for NP coral feeding as long as you reload at 12 hours. This is very valuable information, and I suggest you take it to the bank. For longer periods of time, I hope someone comes up with a reservoir/refrigerator concept. I think a syringe pump would have less degradation than a bucket. I have noted that the rotifer product degrades in the bucket at 12 hours, whereas it doesn't in the syringe pump. But- perhaps they are not eating just rotifers, maybe they are eating the degraded slime.

5) I still dose silica, as per Holmes-Farley. I use 12 drops silica daily, together with 12 drops Lugol's, and vodka. (Even though SD has diatoms). Chuck brings up an interesting point; the use of vodka in these systems didn't seem to do much for nutrients, but did increase the bacterial mucus on the sides of the tank, and then ultimately increased the copepod population. I think the use of silica, iodine, and vodka all are means of increasing the nutritional value of what's scraped off the aquarium walls. As Charles Delbeek has noted, I also get a response to cleaning the aquarium walls.

6) I like the idea of a simpler system- intellectually as well as the fact that I am tired of the work! I am experimenting with an "algal film bioreactor" which uses 3 cu. ft. of positively bouyant translucent beads from the bead filter manufacturers in a 44 gallon Brute container with a 400 watt MH lamp continuously. This gives about 1000 sq. feet of "algae scrubber". The circulation pump turns over these beads, which essentially act as a windshield wiper and liberate algal film back to the aquarium (a 55 gallon experimental tank). No skimmer is used, and there will be no substrate to start. The tank will be fed organic fertilizer (Espoma brand cottonseed meal, kelp meal, and/or blood meal) to maintain NSW nutrient levels. (The tank will be "demand fed" to target nutrient levels). No other feeding will be used. I'm sure I can peg nutrients where I want them, and suspect I will get acceptable amounts of algal cells and bacteriofilm in the water. It will be interesting to see if stony corals accept such a system, assuming its ability to start from extremely low nutrients and concentrate them into cellular material in the water. This might be the simpler type of system many of would like to see. However- the "Stottlemire method" is the one that Chuck has shown us to work, and that is how I am maintaining my larger system and stock source for frags.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11951013#post11951013 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by charles matthews
4) The cooling issue: Chuck has demonstrated that cooling isn't an issue for NP coral feeding as long as you reload at 12 hours. This is very valuable information, and I suggest you take it to the bank. For longer periods of time, I hope someone comes up with a reservoir/refrigerator concept. I think a syringe pump would have less degradation than a bucket. I have noted that the rotifer product degrades in the bucket at 12 hours, whereas it doesn't in the syringe pump. But- perhaps they are not eating just rotifers, maybe they are eating the degraded slime.


The thought had crossed my mind the degradation of the SD might actually be creating some extra reaction from the dendros but as for the product itself I can't recommend leaving it in too hot of conditions for too long. It's on the "more" perishable side of things...like milk :)

What do you mean "in the bucket"? Is this the "mixed in seawater bucket method" spoken about earlier? IMO the dendros aren't just eating the rotifers in Rotif-Feast but also the alginate broken down by bacteria :)

[Kreeger1]

GreshamH, I tired to pm you but your box is full, did you get my email?
Thanks
Erik

[Kolognekoral]

Just to let you all know, I have requested a forum for non-phosynthetic corals and marine animals and there is a thread under Feedback and Questions explaining the plan. Please add your voice to this request!

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1325215

[sammy33]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=4276332#post4276332 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by charles matthews
I am interested in forming a study group for Dendronepnthya sp. husbandry. Are there others that share this interest? Should it be a thread- or, as I would prefer, a new forum?

Ha...the very first post in this thread also included a request for a dedicated forum to this most fascinating topic. I have been following this thread for year(s) now and have been reluctant to post certain questions/ideas in this thread in order to not dillute it. It would be nice to start some other threads centered around this topic.

I would sincerely like to discuss the keeping of these type corals which I like to call NPS. ;) I think a dedicated forum here on RC would be the most appropriate place to post my NPS build thread. :rollface:

[Whalehead9]

This is a system that I want to one day build and all of the information that can be discussed without having to browse at least 4-5 forums(Advanced topics, softie, lps, other inverts and DIY for feeding systems) just to get all the info. I think that it is time to build a NPS forum, just to make it easier for interested followers to acquire the knowledge required to create a system that allows all the involved organisms to survive.

[charles matthews]

Charles Matthews here.

Go, Sammy!

Please continue your requests for a focum dedicated to NP organisms! The topic has always begged for an integrated view of the general problem of natural feeding levels in reef systems. Join the movement- WE WANT OUR OWN FORUM!!!

I don't want to be rough on Reef Central, who havae been helpful to us. But, if RC won't start a forum, perhaps someone else here would start a web site for us - take advertising- and we can start to attract manufacturers (such as prop or other pump types, food products, etc) to this site. Come on, RC, move us up, or "let my people go!".

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I figure if mantis shrimp can have an entire forum dedicated to themselves, then non-photosynthetic corals should have their own forum. Even if you take the argument that all of the NPS stuff could be lumped into soft corals/LPS/other invertebrates, you can't argue against the fact that they require their own very different care. The care needed for Dendros and Scleros is very different from the care one provides all of the photosynthetic soft corals. They aren't simply more difficult varieties of soft corals, they require a unique approach. Same goes for Tubastrea and Dendrophyllia when comparing with other LPS. Then let's not forget the fire corals, which forum would one post a question about them?

[Kolognekoral]

OK, folks! We have our own forum! Start posting threads.

This is gonna be great.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&forumid=555&x=13&y=9

[reefkeeper2]

I've seen many references here and elsewhere to the dosing of vodka but no specifics as to how it is dosed or in what amount. It seems that the biofilm produced by the vodka is of some importance, but it's exact contribution is still not completely understood. Nevertheless, the use of vodka appears to be essential. Is there a general rule of thumb for dosing vodka such as so many mls per gallon per day?

[Whalehead9]

Outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kreeger1]

I dose 10 mil per day to my 400 gal system
Erik

[reefkeeper2]

Did you start out with 10ml or did you work your way up to it?

[Kreeger1]

started with 3 then 5 then 7 then 10 over a 2 week period
Erik

[Kolognekoral]

I think we should start a thread on this under the new forum. Although vodka is the typical item used, what we are talking about is carbon dosing and there are real problems when one uses only one source of carbon, such as vodka. This favours specific strains of bacteria and throws the system a bit off balance, which has often lead to system collapse. The trick seems to be dosing a mixed carbon source to support various bacterias. This, also, prevent a single specie bacteria bloom which robs the water column of O2 and suffocates the tank inhabitants.

[reefkeeper2]

I think a thread in the new forum is a good idea. I am not convinced of the specific strain reasoning but it does make sense that there could be benifits from using multiple sources.

[abulgin]

I have kept mine alive and happy for over 8 months. In fact, at the request of Bob Fenner, I recently submitted an article to WetWebMedia describing my success.

(1) What species- or if not known, (which is usual), did it come attached to rubble or to rock?

I don't know the species, as it was sold to me as a Lemnalia sp., which turned out to be wrong. It is opaque white with yellow sclerites, and tiny bright yellow and purple polyps.

(2) Water flow information.

My animal is in a relatively high flow area, with flow from a Maxi-Jet 1200 pointing in its direction (buffered by a piece of live rock).

(3) Feeding information.

I target feed my coral with a slurry of Cyclop-Eeze and system water about twice per week.

(5) Behavioral observations of interest.

It stays expanded about 90% of the time--it is almost always inflated while the lights are off and periodically deflates and reinflates during the day.

(6) How long has the specimen been kept under captive care?

8+ months.

(7) Filtration/skimmer/refugia information.

I have a 110g display (48"x30"x18") with a 30g refugium (5" DSB, 10lbs of live rock and a large clump of Chaeto--I "feed" the fuge every week or so with several shrimp pellets). Lighting is 2x250W HQI (20,000K) and 4x65W PC actinics; actinics are on from 10:30 am to 10:30 pm, and HQIs are on from 11:30 am to 9:30 pm. My skimmer is a Coral Life Super Skimmer (nothing fancy or great). I have a wet-dry trickle filter with bio-balls, and I run carbon and a phosphate removal media in my sump.

[abulgin]

Here is a pic of my Dendrohttp://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/160589Dendro.JPG

[Kreeger1]

Thats most likely not a dendro and is a laminalia or some type of neospongodes. I believe they sold it to you as the correct animal.
Erik

[abulgin]

I don't believe it is a Lemnalia. I believe it is a Dendro. I have done a lot of photo comparisons, and Robert Fenner of Wet Web Media/Conscientious Marine Aquarist agrees that it was mislabled as a Lemnalia and is in fact a Dendro. Here is a close-up picture of its polyps. The sclerites are clearly visible, which I understand a Lemnalia lacks.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/160589Polyp_Close_Up.JPG

[Kreeger1]

nope, thats lemnalia, and use they have a ton of sclerities
Scerlonypthia is the one with no scerlities

Hope that helps
Erik

[Kreeger1]

Thats a fairly common color morph and coral around my area, Im pretty sure others will chime in with the same thoughts I have...not a dendro
The coral you posted also uses light for food as well...hense the 8 months in captivity and doing well. With what your feeding a dendro would not be doing well.
Erik

[abulgin]

If you go to http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nephtheids.htm and look at the first picture on the left under "Genus Dendronephthya", you will see that my coral looks almost identical to the one posted.

Another image

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/160589Night_-_Lights_on.JPG

[abulgin]

"With what your feeding a dendro would not be doing well."

I have a very "alive" refugium, so I'm sure that all of my corals are getting a lot of nutrients from the fuge.

I'm not saying you're wrong--I just know what others in the field have told me and what I've found through research.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I agree with Erik, I actually have the exact same coral and it is quite different from any Dendronephthya I've ever seen. As far as what specific genus, I'm still having quite a bit of difficulty determining that. It is definitely a Nephtheid, but that whole family is so mixed up in terms of nomenclature. From what I've researched, I think these corals are due for an overhaul of their classifications. In terms of care, the coral you have is definitely easier than any Dendro. I'd liken it to the purple "Neospongodes" described here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1292781

[Kreeger1]

in that link yours looked like
Lemnalia sp. N. Sulawesi pix.


that last pictre you posted doesn't look like the other coral you post, are all 3 your pictures?

[abulgin]

All three are mine and are of the same coral--just under different lighting and different stages (inflated, deflated) throughout the day.

[Kreeger1]

A refugium doesn't have much to do with feeding a dendro, imo. the food they eat is under 50 microns...so I've noticed and read as well. Could you get a clear shot, not as compressed and stoe it on a site like photobucket, rc's gallery makes you compress the photo to much and you miss details, does the skin part look like this?
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/nice1.jpg


I'm pretty sure we had this same discussion on another board, everyone said the same thing...not a dendro and then you left quoting eric borneman? Was that you?

[abulgin]

It's really hard to tell all of these different corals apart.

Here's another pic of mine about 2 hours after lights out.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/160589Night.JPG

[Kreeger1]

It could be, theres really something like 1700 species in this family so it could be one of those that isn't seem much. But it really does look like a nepthid specis. I'm guessing at the 8 month mark with what your feeding that it does use light for food or is photosynthetic. Dendro's starve and eat themselves within a 6 month time frame. Unless your producing alot of bacteria or feeding a liquid based food of some type/ shellfish diet or roti feast I just can't see it being a dendro. They just don't live without the right food/flow combo
Other things do though
Erik

[abulgin]

I uploaded the full pics to photobucket. You can take a look and tell me what you think. Mine has characteristics of the one in the picture you posted, but can't say for sure. I can e-mail them to you if interested.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/abulgin/PolypCloseUp.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/abulgin/Night-Lightson.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/abulgin/Night-Actinics1.jpg

[Kolognekoral]

I have to agree, it is NOT Lemnalia. The scleriten are very clear to see. It may be a Chironephthya species.

[Kreeger1]

The first pic looks like lemnalia
the 2nd and 3rd clear pictures of it don't though. Very interesting coral forsure. Dendro though? I still don't think its that. Something totally different I believe
The full res pics make a world of difference!!! :)

[Kreeger1]

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/abulgin/Night-Lightson.jpg
I'd like one of those !

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I have this exact coral. It has been doing ok for me, hasn't exactly exploded in growth, but hasn't declined either. It has the exact same habits as the purple "Neospongodes" that I got from Erik.

[Genetics]

Any updates?

[Moser]

Does anyone have update pics on this tank?.
http://www.cpfarm.com/

I'm not sure how long it's been running, but this is the only pic I have seen of it. The Dendro's seem to be doing well though.....

Mo

[Kreeger1]

i believe that was a staged photo, not a setup tank for any period of time. Beautiful but just done for photo opt.

[graveyardworm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14399099#post14399099 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kreeger1
i believe that was a staged photo, not a setup tank for any period of time. Beautiful but just done for photo opt.

I'm going to agree, I believe it was just set up for an exhibition or something if I remember correctly. There was a lot of discussion about it awhile back.

[muzzler]

hello!!!

please tell me Chuck use alive Rotifers and phytoplancton or not?

[Kreeger1]

He uses Reed's products, Shell fish diet and Roti feast. His tank is no longer. He's starting a small 30 gal tank to see if he can reproduce his results small scale.

[slapshot]

He uses Reed's products, Shell fish diet and Roti feast. His tank is no longer. He's starting a small 30 gal tank to see if he can reproduce his results small scale.

Just dug this up again. Could someone please report on the demise? The failure is just as important as the success from a learning perspective.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

It wasn't a failure in the sense that Chuck's methods didn't work. He was having great results with dendronephthya. He just had a major power outage that winter that killed his tank.

[CLINTOS]

Anyone try a algae turf scrubber along with a refuge so large amount's of food can be dosed/grown while exporting inorganics and keeping the food inside?

[herring_fish]

Yes I have an ATS and a refugium. I don't run anythink else.

I have a 130 gallon main tank and 55 gallon sump/refugium that is fill to the brim with a special coral rubble from Caribsea. It is very porus but unfortunatly it is not offered for sale to the public.

I use a dump bucket style Algal Turf Scrubber (ATS). You can see is running on Youtube using these links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoKX8AjEbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARl3jzpVd0g
There were taken right after is was installed.
By the way, I raised it up until the splash was strong enough for my liking, which is purly cosmetic and not for the health of the tank. I like the look and the soothing sound of the splash, which is quieter with the cabinet doors closed.
You can also see my website with some old articles on my last project and some rendering on that project and my new one, by clicking on this: http://asaherring.com

I started my tank about 10 months ago and I have been biulding up the feeding regement slowly as I work up the filter feeding higherarchy. I wanted to feed heavily and not have the food skimmed out right away. Instead, I wanted to food to circulate as long as possible. That is why I pulled out my old dump bucket that I used for about 10 years without an refugium and re-used it.
I have lots of feather dusters and am starting to find sponges growning on a few of the rocks. I also have a couple of gargonions as well. Dendros are next on my list but I didn't want to simply let them wast away until I was ready. Now I am.

I have worked up on the feeding, using lots of powders and other things but I have a mixed use tank that also includes SPS and LPS as well so I have high light levels and am keeping the rock clean as I increase the feeding. I have never had a messuable cycle spike, which is typical for well built ATS tanks. Also, I am never able to messure any nutrients of my test kits.

I don't get any algae growth at all on the rock but it does turn a little dark if I rush the feeding. I don't think that the ATS effects the bacerial load which seems to help the snails. The turbo snails and asteas starved to death long ago becuase of the lack of hair algae but I bought some small soft shell snails that like the brown coating.

My ATS was running fine until I hooked up my 55g refugium about 4 months ago. In just a couple of weeks, after a harvest, the algae stopped growing back. The nutriant levels were always too low to measure on normal hobby test kits or at the store but they fell so low that the fast growning turf algae didn't grown back.

Basically, the refugium went into compatitoin with the ATS. I seeded the rock with a little bottled bacteria and a small sample of the oldest piece of live rock that I could buy from the store. If you look at the licks above, you will see that there is lots of air exchange from the energetic splash so oxygen was never an issue even though the ATS was no longs doing anything but offer insurence against an occational over dose of food or additives. If that happened, th algae grew for a short period of time once and a while but then return to a no growth state. At first the ATS started growing lots of brown slim from the powder and other foods but than it's growth also slowed and then stopped.

All was fine but my pH begain to fall and I had to add 8.4 and Balance more and more. I search around the web and confirmed that a rise in CO2 will cause that problem so I bought some birds nest macro algae and put it in the dump bucket. It didn't grow much at all but it did breath under the close by lighting. The CO2 went down and the pH stablized.

I am up to 18 fish and enogh coral food to completly cloud the water to the point that you can't see anything in the tank. ...but no alae ....all clean rock.

I am working on new feeding formuli as I get ready to go to the dendros. I am confedent that the tank is quite read. I have not been adding the growned squid and stuff like that because I have nothing to eat it yet. When I do, the scrubber should kick back in. In my old tank, I added fish furtalizer to keep up the algae production when I over scrubbed so this should be no problem. I think that I have lots of capacity that I have not tapped yet.

[CLINTOS]

That's what I was told about the ATS aswell that it would out compete cheato

a ATS is the next thing that I'm adding to my refugeless/skimmerless DT and I'm leaning towards dosing alot of phyto and meaty food

I'm hoping to add a tester dandro someday

Does anyone know which specific dendro might consume nano phyto?

[slapshot]

It wasn't a failure in the sense that Chuck's methods didn't work. He was having great results with dendronephthya. He just had a major power outage that winter that killed his tank.

Uggg that sucks! Thank you.

[uhuru]

herring_fish that is an awesome design you have there, please let everyone know how it works out for you with the Dendronephthya

[CLINTOS]

I agree

[uhuru]

HD video of former TOTM winner Pieter van Suijekom's NPS tank:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFjMBws7Tgg

The water is SWARMING with pods!

[CLINTOS]

I wonder if those are pods indroduced live shortly before feeding or grown in population?

or live at all?

[mcox33]

Hi Fred

I think that Dendros and several other non-photosynthetic species feed on coral mucus, or rather the sstuff that is on and in the mucus. I came to that conclusion after a few experiences:
1) Once I went through all my UW pictures of Dendros etc. and did not find a single picture where there wasn't a piece of this snot hanging somewhere.
2) THere are several publications out there that show that coral mucus is quite nutritious. Coral mucus traps a lot of debris and detritus, adding to its nutritioal value or at least making its nutritious spectrum somewhat broader.
3) Coral mucus in nature is rapidly colonized by bacteria, this has been shown in several studies. Bacteria break the polysaccharides into smaller chunks, thereby dissolving the material
4) Over the last few decades, people tried to keep Dendros alive with basically no luck, not matter what they actually fed them. The only long-time success that was reported was from Peter Wilkens, he claimed it to be a result of using his Product Combisan. I don't think so, but he stirred his gravel several times per week, and apparently then the coral opened. What did the coral eat? Not the Combisan, but the detritus. The detritus itself contains a lot of stuff, its composition is depending on what is in the tank. However, all this material is colonized by bacteria.
5) When I used some live or preserved Phytoplankton the Dendros opened, the question is now: What causes this reflex, the Phyto or the bacteria living in the Phyto broth? In an Experiment at the University of Stuttgart some sponges were fed with a bad batch of phyto which was completely contaminated by bacteria. The next day the sponges showed more activity than ever before as measured by several techniques.

UltraPac mimics the coral mucus, not perfectly but it is a start. By binding other stuff to it,either particular material like unicellular algae or dissolved stuff like Amino acids it is possible to at least partially recreate the mucus. As I said it is still less than perfect and I am working together with Fauna Marin on some improvement, but this may take a little while longer. Danny Dame from Holland is using the stuff for the last few months and he has some very good success with it, as well as several other people.
The two US distributors just got the stuff last week or so, it may not be on their website, I would just drop them an email.

The only problem with this kind of food is that it pollutes the water quite heavily. I am using a skimmer plus a refugium, PO4 Adsorber , a just to keep NO3 and PO4 at halfway decent (NO3 20 ppm, PO4 0.1 pm) levels.



Best wishes

Jens



I had dendro's that I kept for several years before my ex killed my tank and then later my house burned. But until then I had kept them for about 3 to 4 years, but i took a syringe and blew detris from the rock every morning and evening and then buried the end of the syringe in the sand and blew air through it to stir up the dirty corners sometimes as much as 3 times a day.

yeah i spent way to much time with my tanks. lol

[slapshot]

Yes I have an ATS and a refugium. I don't run anythink else.

I have a 130 gallon main tank and 55 gallon sump/refugium that is fill to the brim with a special coral rubble from Caribsea. It is very porus but unfortunatly it is not offered for sale to the public.

I use a dump bucket style Algal Turf Scrubber (ATS). You can see is running on Youtube using these links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoKX8AjEbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARl3jzpVd0g
There were taken right after is was installed.
By the way, I raised it up until the splash was strong enough for my liking, which is purly cosmetic and not for the health of the tank. I like the look and the soothing sound of the splash, which is quieter with the cabinet doors closed.
You can also see my website with some old articles on my last project and some rendering on that project and my new one, by clicking on this: http://asaherring.com

I started my tank about 10 months ago and I have been biulding up the feeding regement slowly as I work up the filter feeding higherarchy. I wanted to feed heavily and not have the food skimmed out right away. Instead, I wanted to food to circulate as long as possible. That is why I pulled out my old dump bucket that I used for about 10 years without an refugium and re-used it.
I have lots of feather dusters and am starting to find sponges growning on a few of the rocks. I also have a couple of gargonions as well. Dendros are next on my list but I didn't want to simply let them wast away until I was ready. Now I am.

I have worked up on the feeding, using lots of powders and other things but I have a mixed use tank that also includes SPS and LPS as well so I have high light levels and am keeping the rock clean as I increase the feeding. I have never had a messuable cycle spike, which is typical for well built ATS tanks. Also, I am never able to messure any nutrients of my test kits.

I don't get any algae growth at all on the rock but it does turn a little dark if I rush the feeding. I don't think that the ATS effects the bacerial load which seems to help the snails. The turbo snails and asteas starved to death long ago becuase of the lack of hair algae but I bought some small soft shell snails that like the brown coating.

My ATS was running fine until I hooked up my 55g refugium about 4 months ago. In just a couple of weeks, after a harvest, the algae stopped growing back. The nutriant levels were always too low to measure on normal hobby test kits or at the store but they fell so low that the fast growning turf algae didn't grown back.

Basically, the refugium went into compatitoin with the ATS. I seeded the rock with a little bottled bacteria and a small sample of the oldest piece of live rock that I could buy from the store. If you look at the licks above, you will see that there is lots of air exchange from the energetic splash so oxygen was never an issue even though the ATS was no longs doing anything but offer insurence against an occational over dose of food or additives. If that happened, th algae grew for a short period of time once and a while but then return to a no growth state. At first the ATS started growing lots of brown slim from the powder and other foods but than it's growth also slowed and then stopped.

All was fine but my pH begain to fall and I had to add 8.4 and Balance more and more. I search around the web and confirmed that a rise in CO2 will cause that problem so I bought some birds nest macro algae and put it in the dump bucket. It didn't grow much at all but it did breath under the close by lighting. The CO2 went down and the pH stablized.

I am up to 18 fish and enogh coral food to completly cloud the water to the point that you can't see anything in the tank. ...but no alae ....all clean rock.

I am working on new feeding formuli as I get ready to go to the dendros. I am confedent that the tank is quite read. I have not been adding the growned squid and stuff like that because I have nothing to eat it yet. When I do, the scrubber should kick back in. In my old tank, I added fish furtalizer to keep up the algae production when I over scrubbed so this should be no problem. I think that I have lots of capacity that I have not tapped yet.

I have also read these kind of things. To that end once a week I just make my green slimmer mad.

[uhuru]

It seems Ultra Pac, the artificial coral mucus, has been replaced with Ultra Min D. From Claude:

"Current results obtained from Fauna Marin research in both natural coral reefs and in experimentally set up reef tanks provided us with important information for the development of a new food system powerful enough to let your Dendronepthya grow even in captivity.

We found that animate, nutritionally improved coral mucus is the key factor in Dendronephthya nutrition. Our research goals have practically been applied to our new artificial coral mucus ULTRA MIn-D. The Dendro System allows for both the efficient nutrient upgrade and nutrient transport to the coral"

When I look at the back of the bottle, the ingredients are exactly the same as ULTRA Min S, but the color of the fluid is much different. I wonder if they took Ultra Min S (amino acid supp) and added Ultra Pac to it.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Uhuru, what is the consistency of the Ultra Min D? Does it form a gel, is it fairly viscous?

[uhuru]

By itself, no, it is not very viscous, not like Ultra Pac is shortly after mixing. I didn't find Ultra Pac to be very viscous either when used in small concentrations and allowed to sit over night... upon initial mixing yes it was like a gel. I'm currently dosing 3-4 drops/day, not mixed with anything. I feed the dry foods separately.

Ultra min D is a fluorescent yellow color, could this be from vitamins? Aside from water, the main ingredient is listed as glucose monohydrate.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

The instructions from Fauna Marin about how to use this system are confusing and inconsistent. For one thing, they include the Ultra Life in the mix, which from what I can tell is for both improving the efficiency of a skimmer and as a delivery mechanism for nutrients to corals. They say to combine this with the Ultra Clam and the Ultra Sea Fan and add it next to a filter... So, is the idea to basically have it immediately removed from your system? Then, they have you apparently add the Ultra Min D separately. If it is not used to bind the food, how is it a replacement for Ultra Pac?

From what I can tell, Ultra Min D is just sugar, amino acids, and trace elements. It not like any artificial coral mucus I would envision. Coral mucus is comprised of polysaccharides, proteins, and lipids and acts as a food delivery mechanism for the heterotrophic regions of the reef. People have been dosing sugar (a.k.a. carbon dosing), AA's, and trace elements for a long time now. How is this system an improvement?

What particularly bothers me about the Fauna Marin system is that, as a commercial endeavor, they keep most of how it works (or supposedly works) on the hush hush. As hobbyists interested in improving the base of knowledge for how to care for these creatures, we are almost completely in the dark. They no doubt have been performing some amount of research into this, but whatever their findings (good or bad) we will never know. For instance, why did they discontinue Ultra Pac? They say that they have a replacement in Ultra Min D, but it doesn't add up. Instead, we are supposed to just accept what they advertise. In a hobby that has a glut of companies selling unnecessary additives at premium cost, I find it hard to be so trusting.

[uhuru]

The ingredients are exactly the same as Ultra Min S, but they are sold for different applications, and the color looks completely different (Ultra Min S is brown, Ultra Min D is yellow). There must be something different that they aren't sharing, and I hope its not just food coloring.

I was initially told that Ultra Pac was discontinued and being reworked for a new improved release. This was AFTER Ultra Min D was already released. It was only recently that Ultra Min D was being marketed as a replacement for Ultra Pac. I'm going to ask about this in their forum.

[ari5736]

New to the thread, I just converted a sulphur reactor on my 45g tank (36"x 12") to a phyto reactor that I have set to drip at night. Next I would like to introduce a culture of perhaps rotifers and copepods to the tank. The tank is sans sump, aquaC remora powered by a mag 7. I have a school of lyretail antias I feed 2x a day frozen mysis and plankton.

I plan on dealing with the nitrates (now that my sulphur reactor is gone) via vodka dosing (just started microbackter to get things rolling). I had a ton of bacteria white stinky sludge in the sulphur reactor I cleaned out and am considering dosing some of it to the tank, but for fear of toxic crap from the suphur beads.

Inverts, I have 1 Dendronephthya (tuff word), Scleronephthya (another doosie), zoas, rics, derasa, and whats a tank without gsp. Tank is lit by 2 t5 actinic and 1 96w 50/50 pc.

Flow is provided for by a cl blueline velocity 4. I have a huge culture of phyto going on (DT's multiplied by 20 gallons) aside from the aforementionned phyto reactor set underneath the tank which is also on a closed loop feed. Also have some rotifeast and oysterfeast in my fridge. I also culture artemia about once a week.

With all that said, I am hopeful with Dendros, they are such beautiful corals. My main issue is heat. My tank shuts down the cl at 81, and I need to find some cheap fans to hook up to the lip of the tank. With the winter I should be okay, but come the summer I am thinking either a chiller (very quiet), a fan cooled pump on the closed loop, or transferring all of the photosynthetic organisms in this tank to reduce light heat, and just turn the lights on for display hours.

So aside from the heat issues, I would appreciate a recommendation for a live regenerating pod food I can keep in my hang on fuge where the phyto reactor output drips.

Oh finally, I dose Lanthanum chloride into my skimmer every so often. I definitely see it get skimmed out because the skimmate smells horrible, it is very light, and starts bubbling as soon as I inject it into the skimmer column. I am sure some makes it out to the tank, but a gfo reactor is not feasible, to much other stuff going on in my sumpless display. Okay time to goto sleep.

[GreshamH]

I never really got the logic behind a phyto reactor. Phyto needs a F/2 nutrient mix to be nutritious (miracle grow, etc are very poor nutrient sources and even worse to introduce to ones tank) and a reactor will dump that back into the tank causing worse problems then that of simply adding phyto.

I'd suggest reading up on how much phyto rotifers need. the water itself will need to look nearly as green as a phyto culture.

[herring_fish]

I got four good sized dendros shipped to me today. After a few hours, one of them (pink) is just barely standing up on its own. The second (purple) has two thirds just standing. The other two Purple and yellow) are pretty deflated.

I have high hopes for them. If any one has advice on acclimation and the short run care of these guys, please chime in.

Formulating the right food as an experiment is a big risk. I’ll see if it helps.

[uhuru]

Are they just shrunken like a ball, or are they deflated but stretched out (bad sign)? Are the polyps open? If so, with continuous feeding and good water quality they should start expanding within a few days.

[herring_fish]

They are laying out, in an arching fashion. The branches are not shriveled. They all have a bit of a pump. Some just can’t stand. The polyps look like they are open.

[Maivortex]

I never really got the logic behind a phyto reactor. Phyto needs a F/2 nutrient mix to be nutritious (miracle grow, etc are very poor nutrient sources and even worse to introduce to ones tank) and a reactor will dump that back into the tank causing worse problems then that of simply adding phyto.

I'd suggest reading up on how much phyto rotifers need. the water itself will need to look nearly as green as a phyto culture.

You need to have the minimum amount of nutrients to sustain growth and still not intoduce any nutrients into the tank. phyto does not need high concentrations to grow. Cyano grows in reef tanks with no detectable levels of PO4 or N so why not create a culture in this way.

[ari5736]

You need to have the minimum amount of nutrients to sustain growth and still not intoduce any nutrients into the tank. phyto does not need high concentrations to grow. Cyano grows in reef tanks with no detectable levels of PO4 or N so why not create a culture in this way.


I think that the n&p from my tank will be totally sufficient for the culture. I wouldn't add anything to the culture, although I have been toying with the idea of hooking up a CO2 tank. I wouldn't need to dose any more than goes into a calcium reactor to get exteme growth.

[GreshamH]

You need to have the minimum amount of nutrients to sustain growth and still not intoduce any nutrients into the tank. phyto does not need high concentrations to grow. Cyano grows in reef tanks with no detectable levels of PO4 or N so why not create a culture in this way.

Cyanobacteria is nothing you'd want to feed to NPS corals so I am unsure why you brought that to this discussion. Now if you could say that about Tet, pav, TW, Iso, etc then it might have a bearing on this discussion.

Sustainable growth and nutritional value are widely different and a poor nutritional value phyto is pretty much useless to the animals we want to feed.

The company I work for is the worlds largest producer of marine phytoplakton well, behind mother nature of course. The nutrient requirement of phyto is well documented. This is based on producing phyto with the best possible nutritional value. You do not want this nutrient media (F/2) in your reef tank. This is why companies like us remove it prior to selling it to our customers globally.

[GreshamH]

The standard of phytoplankton production is Guillard’s F/2 medium. You can view what the make up is using CCMP's website: http://marine.rutgers.edu/ebme/html_docs/f2-MediaRecipes.htm

Stock solution:
NaNO3,
NaH2PO4.H2O
Na2SiO3.9H2O
Trace Metal solution
Vitamin solution


Trace Metal Solution
FeCl3.6H2O _(iron)*
Na2EDTA.2H2O
CuSO4.5H2O (copper)*
Na2MoO4.2H2O
ZnSO4.7H2O (zinc)*
CoCl2.6H2O (cobalt)*
MnCl2.4H2O (Manganese)*

Vitamin Solution
Vitamin B12
Biotin
Thiamine HCl

* I added the common names just so people could see what they are.

If your doing a diatom you’ll want to add silica to the solution as well.

Now before some one tries to call me out that I am just trying to get people to use our product and not grow it themselves, or do the reactor method, I've long held the same thought about phyto reactors prior to working for the company I do now. I'm not one to allow heavy metals to knowingly enter my aquariums, well, besides what little I dose of manganese and iron to my fuge :)

[ari5736]

Cyanobacteria is nothing you'd want to feed to NPS corals so I am unsure why you brought that to this discussion. Now if you could say that about Tet, pav, TW, Iso, etc then it might have a bearing on this discussion.

Sustainable growth and nutritional value are widely different and a poor nutritional value phyto is pretty much useless to the animals we want to feed.

The company I work for is the worlds largest producer of marine phytoplakton well, behind mother nature of course. The nutrient requirement of phyto is well documented. This is based on producing phyto with the best possible nutritional value. You do not want this nutrient media (F/2) in your reef tank. This is why companies like us remove it prior to selling it to our customers globally.

I did not realize I was replying to an expert in the phyto field. Some questions if I may. Is there any practical way for a hobbiest culturing phyto to remove the nutrient media after phyto growth. In my cultures I use miracle grow. Also I guess you are saying a phyto reactor hooked up to a cl fed on a display will not be provided with sufficient nutrients to grow if f2 or miracle grow equivalent are not added? Is there a minimum amount of f2 or miracle grow to add to a culture (i.e. ml/gallon) to sustain growth? Would CO2 connected to a reactor obviate, or even lessen the need for nutrients. Thank you Gresham.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

If you bought a centrifuge off of eBay, you would be able to significantly reduce the nutrient media by concentrating the phyto and decanting off the growth media (ie. make a phyto paste). Or, you could try to find an appropriate filter paper and filter funnel that will collect the phyto and allow the water and media to pass through. The former would be pretty expensive, but fairly easy to do. The latter would be cheaper, but difficult to implement, more time consuming, and you would probably want to do it under refrigeration.

In the end, I don't think you'd really be saving much money, seeing as products like Shellfish Diet are pretty cheap for what you get (not to mention it includes a blend of phyto instead of just one species). Certainly, it would be a lot of work and hassle for limited reward.

[GreshamH]

I'm not an phyto expert by any means but I do work with Phycologists and I guess I'm a bit more informed ont he subject then most reefers :lol:

aninjaaremyshoe hit it square on the head... a centrifuge is the best way, or a transdential (sp?) flow filter or even some filter media that can filter down to 1 micron. All methods require human hands and can't be automated to feed your aquarium on it's own.

Miracle Grow is no substitute for F/2. It's formulated for terrestrial plants and does not have the vitamins and trace metals that phyto need and what it does have is in the wrong amounts. It will grow phyto but that phyto will by no means live up to it's true potential. Phyto needs F/2 in a certain concentration and that is nothing you'd want to toss in your aquarium as it will no doubt result in negative things :(

CO2 is widely used for growing phyto in large volumes as it really helps knock down the PH amongst other benefits. Unfortunately it's no substitute for F/2 or amount of F/2.

This is why the reactors have always been an oddity for me. Back in 99 I got into phyto feeding and tried every available source. I found only one wouldn't give me huge nuisance algae outbreaks so I looked into why that was. At the time only two removed the F/2 media and of those two one was grown a few cities over from me. I spoke with the owners, got the down low and the rest is history :)

[herring_fish]

These are my new (dendros/not). They are only three days old. I have been moving them around and changing the water flow to get them to pump. The best one was moved to the worst place and it does not like it. The other three look happier. This is not the best picture. In addition to the picture, check out this Youtube film for a better tour.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCX4opCa6hE

My questions are:
1. How pumped are these things. Slightly, partially, kinda, fully ….what?
2. What are they called?


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=92923&d=1260678213

[Kreeger1]

none of those were dendros in your video Herring fish. Those were leminellia. spelled that one wrong, but those are not non photo corals. They like the food but require light.

[herring_fish]

Thanks,

How much light do they like, a lot of a little?

[Kreeger1]

Mine did well for me under 250 mh I had them from up high to down low in the tank and they did well in all spots, Here's a old picture of mine.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/neospongodes.jpg

[billsreef]

Miracle Grow is no substitute for F/2. It's formulated for terrestrial plants and does not have the vitamins and trace metals that phyto need and what it does have is in the wrong amounts. It will grow phyto but that phyto will by no means live up to it's true potential.

I can't figure why anyone would use Miracle Grow, other than it being available at the corner garden center. For about $25, shipped, one can buy a pack of the ingredients necessary to mix up a concentrate of Guillards media that will feed about 3,000 gallons of phyto cultures. That's less than a penny per gallon of phyto that is high quality and nutritious. Yet hobbyist that will spend lots of money on lights, controllers, pumps, and corals will go and buy Miracle Grow that will grow phyto with the nutritional content of potato chips :rolleyes:

[GreshamH]

I can't figure why anyone would use Miracle Grow, other than it being available at the corner garden center. For about $25, shipped, one can buy a pack of the ingredients necessary to mix up a concentrate of Guillards media that will feed about 3,000 gallons of phyto cultures. That's less than a penny per gallon of phyto that is high quality and nutritious. Yet hobbyist that will spend lots of money on lights, controllers, pumps, and corals will go and buy Miracle Grow that will grow phyto with the nutritional content of potato chips :rolleyes:
:) We must have been split at birth Bill :lol:

[billsreef]

:) We must have been split at birth Bill :lol:

Split by an entire continent :D

[ari5736]

Okay guys I get the point I will switch over to F2. I was just following the word on the street with the miracle grow.

Some questions I have though. First can the phyto-culture be grown nutritionally without the metals? Are the metals not taken up by the phyto in growth? What point do the metals serve if they are not taken up by the phyto in growth?

Also is there any concensus of what is the best mix of food to serve dendros (phyto, rotifers, artemia, oyster feast, combinations)? How much concerntrated food per gallon of aquarium water if you have just one or two colonies?

[uhuru]

I don't think there is a consensus, which is why you feed a lot of everything, but not too much :)

[CLINTOS]

Cyanobacteria is nothing you'd want to feed to NPS corals so I am unsure why you brought that to this discussion. Now if you could say that about Tet, pav, TW, Iso, etc then it might have a bearing on this discussion.

Sustainable growth and nutritional value are widely different and a poor nutritional value phyto is pretty much useless to the animals we want to feed.

The company I work for is the worlds largest producer of marine phytoplakton well, behind mother nature of course. The nutrient requirement of phyto is well documented. This is based on producing phyto with the best possible nutritional value. You do not want this nutrient media (F/2) in your reef tank. This is why companies like us remove it prior to selling it to our customers globally.

remove it or let the phyto totaly consome it leaving no fertalizer?

asking because i'm trying to come as close as I can to a diy quality phytoplankton

thanks

[aninjaatemyshoe]

If you let the phyto completely consume the available nutrients, you will effectively be putting it into starvation. This will make the nutritional value of the phyto plummet. From my understanding, you need to grow and harvest the phyto under particular conditions for it to have a good amount of nutritional value.

[billsreef]

Harvesting at peak density will give you the lowest amount of extra nutrients, other than spinning the culture down in a centrifuge.

[GreshamH]

what they both said.

[C. Schuhmacher]

IH

This is not my sponsor bord but i hope i can answered also
I think you missunderstand some things of our products
i will try to clear it

The instructions from Fauna Marin about how to use this system are confusing and inconsistent. For one thing, they include the Ultra Life in the mix, which from what I can tell is for both improving the efficiency of a skimmer and as a delivery mechanism for nutrients to corals. They say to combine this with the Ultra Clam and the Ultra Sea Fan and add it next to a filter... So, is the idea to basically have it immediately removed from your system? Then, they have you apparently add the Ultra Min D separately. If it is not used to bind the food, how is it a replacement for Ultra Pac?

***
I did not say to put the food in a filter i say give it in the near of a pump or in the tank.
I write meanwhile a huge manual about the Dendro and seafan system and it is at the moment an the translation.
We developed our systems over the years , so products changed and if i see i can make something better we do it.
Pac was the first product for this system and after long time run and many many years experiences it showed that it work better when i add the parts separatly in the tank.
I did not want that the user has to buy 2 products so i make the active ingriedients in the MIN D and another part in the foods.
I thought the costumer will be happy when they did not need to buy so much bottles....



From what I can tell, Ultra Min D is just sugar, amino acids, and trace elements. It not like any artificial coral mucus I would envision. Coral mucus is comprised of polysaccharides, proteins, and lipids and acts as a food delivery mechanism for the heterotrophic regions of the reef. People have been dosing sugar (a.k.a. carbon dosing), AA's, and trace elements for a long time now. How is this system an improvement?


**** Your Post showed me that you did not understand about the physical and chemical reaction of the coral mucus after ! it leaves the corals.
Dendros and other only can eat the mucus which is in water not which is on the coral.
To get the right mix i need also some polymers and some enzymes but i cannot and will not write them on the bottles cause then my competitors know exactly how it works.
No salt producer even not Coca Cola write what is exact in and that is stuff which you drink ?

What particularly bothers me about the Fauna Marin system is that, as a commercial endeavor, they keep most of how it works (or supposedly works) on the hush hush.

** Did not understand what you mean


As hobbyists interested in improving the base of knowledge for how to care for these creatures, we are almost completely in the dark. They no doubt have been performing some amount of research into this, but whatever their findings (good or bad) we will never know. For instance, why did they discontinue Ultra Pac?

*** Like i said i find a better and cheaper way for the hobbiest so what is wrong on that ?


They say that they have a replacement in Ultra Min D, but it doesn't add up.

*** it is in why you think i will not do ?

Instead, we are supposed to just accept what they advertise. In a hobby that has a glut of companies selling unnecessary additives at premium cost, I find it hard to be so trusting.

*** Why you thought it is wrong what i said, Cause iám a new company not so well known like some other´s which till today sold cheap sugar solutions or
Spirulina as perfect coral food.
I try to work so fast as possible to explain so much is possible and i write
99 % of the things on the bottle which are inside
maybe a mistake to be honest and not write a bullshit on the bottles like many other do.

You can ask me whenever you want about the products and i will try to help so good as possible how the stuff works.

rgds Claude