Assessors

[roverhere]

I'm thinking of skipping on Dottybacks, and going with Assessors.

Does anybody have:

-Links to articles on their reproduction (mouth-breeders?)
-Pairing strategies
-Suggestions on where to purchase captive ones?
-Know where I can find any at all (yellows - blues are a bit more common, it seems).

Thanks - any tips, feedback, or thoughts are more than welcome.

I'm really having a tough time finding these fish, much less info.

Tim

[NicoleC]

ORA breeds them; I hear the yellows are easier than the blues from a breeding perspective. I tried to purchase ORA fish for my assessor harem, but couldn't get more than one fish from them :(

I gather that shipments from Australia come in about every 6 months and that's it. As I was looking, an LA wholesaler just happened to get a batch. The LFS owner that was trying to get them from ORA for me called me from the wholesaler. I picked them up still in the bag when she got back to the shop, and took them home.

It was a troublesome QT -- they were in fairly good shape but it certainly was a long, stressful trip. They had several illnesses plus worms; all treatable but hampered by fighting. 4 assessors in a 12g QT was NOT a good idea. Basically, once they got over being scared to death they started beating the snot out of each other. I had to start on live foods, then they were just finicky, and finally they were weaned to the eating machines they are today.

Once in the large display, I could see better behavior. I seem to have 2 males and 2 females. The 2 males fought a lot; the one I would call the "winner" (less injuries) nonetheless was the odd man out. Recently, one of the "males" starting showing a very fat belly and I thought he might be a she, but it turns out he was just putting on a HUGE growth spurt. Within days he easily became 20% bigger than the others. (Or she. As long as the fish can tell the difference.)

I haven't seen any fighting since. I guess they sorted out the pecking order, and I'm surprised the odd male out survived -- but he had plenty of places to get away and lots of room.

There may be some of that last Oz shipment still out there. These are not immensely popular fish, which is a shame since they are so pretty. Based on my experiences, I would suggest a generous sized breeding tank to get started.

[David M]

I am on the hunt for some yellows myself, SDC has some macnelli's but I really want the flavissimus. There is some info in Scott Michael's Basslet, Dottybacks & Hawkfishes. The book indicates they are dermersal spawners. I found conflicting info at WetWeb which claims they are mouthbrooders.

[roverhere]

David - I concur, there's a lot of conflicting info.

I broke down and called up ORA directly. They gave me wonderful info on this fish (not mouthbrooders). Appear to all be female, and then dominant becomes male.

They will be offering A. mcneill and A. flavissumus for sale sometime around April/May.

They are evening launching a new Web site (gave me a sneak peek at it while we were on the phone)... They are listing more species, and have all the roundheads (assessors & comet) listed!

They've even got some "whacked out" clownfish - a Jigsaw Maroon and "Picasso Perculas"

Some of the other "new species for 2005":

Yellow Assesor - Assesor flavissimus
Blue Assesor - Assesor macneilli
Blue eye Cardinal - Apogon compressus
Comet - Calloplesiops altivelis
Clown Gobies - Gobiodon citrinus and G. okinawae
Yellow Seahorse - Hippocampus kuda

Pretty cool!

They're even labeling different "varieties" of Ocellaris:

False Percula Clownfish - Amphiprion ocellaris
Black False Percula Clownfish - Melanistic variety from Australia
Mis-Bar False Percula Clownfish - irregular stripe patterns
Stubby False Percula Clownfish - Short, squat body shape

Curious to see the "stubby" one!

[NicoleC]

Thanks for the info. I've been waiting for ORA's new web page -- it's been in the work for a while!

My assessor's were WC and of goodly size, so I think they already had their sexing worked out and hence my issues. (Or maybe the one that just had the big growth spurt won and became male?) If you can get CB, that wll make your pairing a lot easier.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[shred5]

Originally posted by roverhere
David - I concur, there's a lot of conflicting info.

I broke down and called up ORA directly. They gave me wonderful info on this fish (not mouthbrooders). Appear to all be female, and then dominant becomes male.

They will be offering A. mcneill and A. flavissumus for sale sometime around April/May.

They are evening launching a new Web site (gave me a sneak peek at it while we were on the phone)... They are listing more species, and have all the roundheads (assessors & comet) listed!

They've even got some "whacked out" clownfish - a Jigsaw Maroon and "Picasso Perculas"

Some of the other "new species for 2005":

Yellow Assesor - Assesor flavissimus
Blue Assesor - Assesor macneilli
Blue eye Cardinal - Apogon compressus
Comet - Calloplesiops altivelis
Clown Gobies - Gobiodon citrinus and G. okinawae
Yellow Seahorse - Hippocampus kuda

Pretty cool!

They're even labeling different "varieties" of Ocellaris:

False Percula Clownfish - Amphiprion ocellaris
Black False Percula Clownfish - Melanistic variety from Australia
Mis-Bar False Percula Clownfish - irregular stripe patterns
Stubby False Percula Clownfish - Short, squat body shape

Curious to see the "stubby" one!

Wow Interesting... Good to see more fish comming to market CB.

Got to give ora some credit ..they are doing a pretty good job were alot of places have failed before... Plus they seem real good at marketing their product...

Dave

[clownfish75]

So the latest is that assessors are NOT mouth brooders? is this correct? is there any info on what they are? do they spawn in a cave like dottybacks?

One thing i did find with some yellows i had once, dont let them get to 30oC otherwsie you will have many dead yellow assessors, i had 10 in a tank and the temp started to climb to 30 within days not one was present anymore.

Christian

[Sanjay]

Do they need to be in a harem - one male with several females ? If so, does the male breed with all the females and there are multiple nests ?

Is all the info available on breeding these just word of mouth, or is there any written documentation ?

sanjay.

[roverhere]

I'm still in the learning mode myself.

ORA says they're not mouthbrooders. They are hermaphroditic - with Male being the final gender.

They breed in caves/tubes/PVC - essentially same as Betta/Comets...

ORA compared their difficulty in larva and breeding to that of Dottybacks, but said they are a much "easier" fish to pair and house in general...

I'm still waiting on more details from the larval breeder at ORA. Will post whatever she will impart on me...

[David M]

I am anxiously awaiting ORA's release of the species. I have a firend that puts together orders about once a month. He mostly wants the coral but the way they are set up, he has to buy a certain $ amount of fish to get to the coral. I have him watching the list and will be ready to pounce when they are available. If anyone here would like I can get extra's and ship them to you, I do a lot of shipping, I have 02 and know how to pack. I will post in this thread if/ when they are ready.

[David M]

Well yesterday I finally got some, SDC had about 30 and I picked out four, all about 1-1/4". I would have bought more but thought the price was way to high, nearly what I have seen at retail ($24). So I have them seperated and will keep them this way until I am sure they are all healthy and eating well. My choices are to toss them all together in a 30 or 50 gallon tank and let them work it out, or try to make 2 pairs in smaller tanks of 10 or 20 gallons each. The latter is my preference. I'm hoping that since they are pretty small gender may still be "flexible" :rolleyes:

[spawner]

Why is it cool sell defective fish? Why not only sell 100% perfect fish, next thing you'll see is mickey mouse clown fish or glow in the dark clowns, clowns that change color. Selling defective fish is bad for the captive market. Why not just put some bubbling treasure chests, a diver, and some nice plastic plants along with your runt mis-barred clown. JMO

I figured ORA would be above selling defective fish.

[oama]

Dear Mods

Its taking some monumental effort, but I am withholding the reply I would just love to give to the above statement.

[spawner]

Sorry Doug, just my opinions on hybrids, freshwater clowns (that is the scariest) and miss-bars, nothing personal just don't think they belong in the trade.

[oama]

Jeez, you would have thought that I would have been in the loop. But, I had no idea ORA was producing Hybrids or freshwater clownfish.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with this thread, so I am walking away.

[spawner]

No speaking of ORA in those cases, again sorry about posting a company name there. I think you guys are much above the hybrid and freshwater nemo thing.

[Atticus]

Originally posted by spawner
No speaking of ORA in those cases, again sorry about posting a company name there. I think you guys are much above the hybrid and freshwater nemo thing.

If you can't stand behind your statement why write it in the first place??? There is a place for misbars in the market and they are part of captive breeding. If we all culled them there would just be plenty of fat groupers and septic systems full of fish that could otherwise have gone to reefers that enjoy a uniquely marked, but otherwise healthy fish.

[NicoleC]

David, your assessors seem quite young at that size. I don't know if they have flexible gender or not, but with 4 you should at least have one of each.

I don't know if keeping them apart for long is a good idea -- maybe you could add all four to a larger tank and use dividers? I had one that took to eating prepared food almost right away, and he taught the others. Despite the fighting, it was a big help to get them acclimated to captivity having the one bold one.

Just a warning, my assessors came with a nasty parasite that slipped through quarantine. I still haven't figured out how to kill it, but praxiquantel is next on the list to try. I don't think it jumped to the other fish, but I have to take down my tank to catch all the fish just in case, and I'll allow the tank to go fishless for a while. So be careful with these guys -- it may be a local parasite we don't see in the hobby much because we get so few shipments from Oz. (Well, at least in the US. Perhaps our Aussie reefers may have seen this little bug.)

[clownfish75]

cant say i have ever seen assessors with extra special bugs, i have seen a fire dartfish with some sort of scary hook/anchor worm thing hanging out its gills, most collectors as i understand remove the extra and then see if the fish survives.

As for miss barring, i have 2 wild pairs with miss barring, what happened there?

Christian

[ediaz]

Why is it cool sell defective fish? Why not only sell 100% perfect fish, next thing you'll see is mickey mouse clown fish or glow in the dark clowns, clowns that change color. Selling defective fish is bad for the captive market. Why not just put some bubbling treasure chests, a diver, and some nice plastic plants along with your runt mis-barred clown. JMO

I know somebody who is raising albino dottybacks and I have seen ORAs stubby clown and it is "different" but people like them.
Should we kill all "defective fish"?

Last week I received a pair of A.percula from Solomon Islands and the male's middle bar is just a dot.

What's wrong with my treasure chest?:(

Edgar

[David M]

Nicole, I have them in specimen containers with holes, all in the same tank side by side. They can see each other but not touch. I will keep them this way for observation/ acclimation for at least a week. The tank is a divided 60, if all looks good I'm gonna try two and two on each side of the divider. If that goes well the "pairs" will be moved to permanent homes, probably a 20 gallon for each. At least that is the plan but I'm open to the free for all approach in one big tank.
There is UV on the Q-tank but no cautionary meds. I have been told that pipezine is a good internal parasite killer, would you think it wise to hit them with it just in case?

[shred5]

I don’t mind miss barring. I think it makes a fish different and unique. I think it would be cool to breed a set of bars out of a clown..

Dave

[RCS]

Although I'm not a personal fan of physically deformed fish (which I'm assuming the stubbies are, similar to blood parrots and "balloon" rams), my understanding (and observation) of the mis-bar trait seems to come from a few different places. I know with captive breeding efforts it seems to stem from a slight increase in ammonia levels during certain development stages. While definitely not healthy, most of the fish I've seen grow just as well as the regular-barred varieties without any apparent issues.

I've also seen wild mis-bars, so there has to be another reason for this trait (I can't imagine an ammonia spike in the ocean!!).

[David M]

OK, just MHO but all the "weird science" and misbar posts are so far off topic I'd like to ask Frank to break them out and move them to a new thread, do you guys mind?

[ediaz]

Would there be cookies and punch in the other thread?
Then I don't mind:lol:

[NicoleC]

David, I like Pipzine for worms (and will miss it when my stash runs out), but it didn't touch my nasty bug. I have started to think that deworming all WC fish seems to be a good precaution.

[clownfish75]

DOnt remember where i mentioned this but David dont let them go over 30oC otherwise you will have mass dieoff, i dont know how your system is setup, but they have a huge temperature prob at that point, i lost all my yellows in 2 days from a tank being 30.5-31oC.

Christian

[roverhere]

Wow... ORA has certainly riled up some folks. Yes - let's let them go to another post and keep this "Assessor-centric".

Nicole - have yours shown *any* spawning behavior so far?

David - I too just got some A. flavissimus from SDC - my guy got them in on Monday - a total of four flavs, and three of them promptly expired that night.

Let me know how yours are doing... They presumably all came from the same imported batch!

He also got an A. mcneil too. My plan was to get the mcneill and 2 flavs, but he's only got one flav left.

Assuming those two survive, I'll grab them this weekend, and he should be getting some more in next week. I'll pick up another flav at that point... You're spot-on with the price ($24 wholesale, plus shipping - ~$30 bucks ea. final). Although I've seen them in the $50-$60 range before (when available at ALL) for Flavs.

They really only seem to come around *right* after the new CITES permits come up; otherwise not much comes from Oz the rest of the year since it's such a limited supply.

I may follow back up with ORA - I'd much rather get CR fish than wild caught.

EDDIE - we exchanged emails a few months back. I may drop you a link re: Assessors as I move forward, if that's cool.

Tim

[NicoleC]

Spawning... maybe? They took a couple of months to form a close family group, and I have seen a couple of bellies wax and wane a little occassional a fish disappears for a few days (except at feeding time.) But they hang out around the back corner of the tank much of the time, so I will probably never know for sure.

[David M]

a total of four flavs, and three of them promptly expired that night.

I inspected those fish personally at SDC and thought they were in excellent health, at least visually. They were certainly in good enough shape to not drop dead in 24 hours, I suspect something went wrong with transfer or acclimation. My four seem fine so far, three eat very well and one I'm a little concerned about but he does eat, just not as aggressively.

[David M]

Well I lost the one that I was worried about, found him dead yesterday AM. The remaining three look good, eating well and adapting to new foods. Soon I will try putting two together.

[NicoleC]

Why not leave all three together? If 3 is a crowd, they will let you know.

[David M]

I might do that, but I would pull the odd one as soon as I could identify a pair. I plan to get more. I'd like 3-4 pairs.

[roverhere]

Didn't get to pick my blue & yellow up this weekend afterall. Probably for the better - I'll wait until some more come in this week (assuming they didn't run out or that more come in...).

How do you feel about putting a pair of them into a 10-12gallon tank for breeding purposes?

They're small fish - but would that be too cramped? It would keep them out of my 90reef, where they would wind up laying eggs who-knows-where, and then worst case have them eaten by one of the more aggressive fish.

How do you think assessors would get along with a Comet/Betta? would it know not to eat them cause they are little cousins, or would they just be fish-food?

Just trying to figure out where to put them...

[NicoleC]

They do like to swim and dart about. With 4, they about killed each other in a 12g. A 20g would probably be better.

[clownfish75]

Has there been any development in the knowledge base on assessor breeding.

i have a group of about 13-15 in a 10 gal tank and they just seem to like shredding each others fins.

no signs of breeding that i can see, does anyone have any info updates?

Christian

[David M]

Hmm..., well..., I couldn't keep 3 macneilli's in a 40 without a war so I'm guessing the ten galon tank is a tad small :D

I'm down to two now and while I do believe they are a pair they have never done anything interesting :rolleyes:

[clownfish75]

perhaps time to spread them out you think?

they are blues (macneilli too)

Christian

[Peter Schmiedel]

Christian,

10-15 in a 10 G tank and you expect them to breed? Ever thought about that this fish need space and feel comfortable before they would think of breeding? IMO this is way to overstocked and hence the agression and tored fins.

I have a breed group of 4 in a 320 G tank

[clownfish75]

ok well overstocked, yes peter i had thought they were overstocked but space is a premium, how many in a 3ftX18X18, i was hopeing to dump the lot in there possibly.

Peter do you have any info on the social structure of the breeding group uyou have? do they need the full size of your tank or are they generally in one smaller area?

Christian

[roverhere]

I have three in a 90, and still there is some aggression.

They share space with a lone yellow (who lost its mate last summer in a heating issue).

I've got a 4th to add to them - was paired up with another in a 30 long, but the mate jumped :mad:

My three in the standard 90, tend to hang to one side, but do venture throughout. One is generally "more alone" than the other two, and tends to be the one who gets chased off... not any physical damage to date has been apparent, but there's charging/chasing and intimidation by the two (paired?) agains the third... so much for "harems" in captivity.

I've grown worried about including the 4th given the possiblity of more aggression, but so far (nearly 8 months) and nothing resembling spawning behavior or any eggs in the mouth (if they even actually breed that way).... My yellows DID show spawning behavior - and one of them would dissapear into their nest for a week+ whenever there was eggs - no eating, no coming out, nothing - upwards of 10 days, but eggs were in a place I couldn't get to in order to pull out or really even observe well, and no fry has every been seen...

[Peter Schmiedel]

Christian,

honestly there is not much social behavior to watch as I mostly don't see the fish enough to watch real behavior. There is nothing observed which I would consider as pair bonding ect. I did have a few times fish carrying eggs so I am sure to have both genders. I do see a preference for one area of the tank, but assume that this is due to flow rate and light condition.

Keep in mind that this genus does normally live in caves and shodow areas where they mostly are observed belly faced towards the celing or the cave sides. I do observe similar behavior as my back panel and the overflow corners are covered with a foam that makes it look like life rock - in the shadow zone they hang out belly faced this artifical wall ( pic from constuction phase : http://www.reefsafe.de/becken.htm)

Also my main tank has a good fishload with peacefull fish (mostly Cirrhilabrus) the Acessor are often not to see and only fpr feeding I can be sure to see them all.

[clownfish75]

thanks for all the info guys, i will definately try expanding their living arangements, might try leaving a big and small one behing in the 10 gal see what happens.

biggest problem is i only have a 3ft tank at th moment, i dont think a pair of sunrise dottyback will understand little blue fish arent dinner, if i put them in a 6 ft tank.

Christian