SolaTubes for reef tanks

[440cudaman]

I would like to know if anyone else has tried to use this type of lighting scheme?

I have been using them for 2yrs now and have had great success with them.
My SPS corals have been going crazy in the natural light.
I thought that I might need to have supplemental lighting, but I took a chance and it worked out for the best.

I was hoping that someone out there has had the same success I've had.
My next project is to change my tank over to the Eco-Wheel so that the captive reef could be as close to natural as possible.

Any thoughts on that?

[ocean mark]

Sorry for my supidity what are they


-----------------SolaTubes----------------


Oceanmark

[440cudaman]

Ocean mark,

Here is the URL for the company that makes the Sola Tube.

http://www.solatube.com.au/

Check it out!

[440cudaman]

I have four of the 10 inch tubes that are about 2 feet off of the surface of the water.
I built a bump out in the wall to hide the extension tubes.
At night when the moon is out it is clearly visible in the tank.
Seeing how I live in Arizona the amount of light I receive is incredible. We don't really have a problem with pollution so that helps.
I have a tremendous amount of information to share but no pictures as of yet.

[LiquidShaneo]

Well, d@mn man, take some pics and write a DETAILED REPORT up about this! :D I'd love to see your tank, how you have your SolarTubes setup, etc. We've talked about this a number of times on the Reefkeepers mailing list but so far we haven't seen anyone using them for their tanks. It would be great to see someone actually using them and hearing how successful they were at implementing them on their tank, what they would change, some tips that they might have, etc! I've thought about this concept a number of times as an alternative to using so much halide lighting. Please let us know the DETAILS! :)

Shane
liquid on #reefs, #reefcentral

[SPasse]

440cudaman,

I would also be very interested in seeing pictures of your setup.

As I live in the Denver area, we get almost as many sunny days as you do so this system should also be viable here.

Regards,

Scott

[MchEdward]

440cudaman, We must be on the same wavelength. I just posted a thread a couple days ago about this. I was wondering if anyone has ever tryed it. Secondly I just set up my Eco-Wheel about 3 months ago.

Have you ever used MH's Like to know the difference's. I did a search and so many were discounting Natural light because of the algea problem. But what the h%$l, doesn't the Great Barrier Reef get naturl sun light????????????? How about FIJI, do they get light over in that part of the world????
Isn't that what everyone is forking out so much $ for MH's is to mimic the sun? I don't understand some people.

Could you give us specifics on your tank? Inhabitants, set-up etc... Do the solar tubes ad any heat to the tank? Big one there! It sure would be nice to be able to use free sun instead of the electric company.

[DgenR8]

I have seen these on T.V. before and often wondered if it would make for good reef lighting.
I don't think it could work for me as my tank is on the first floor of a 2 story house, but I'd like to see the pix!!

[tlc]

yes please share your experiences with this lighting. my next house i plan on using more natural lighitng and plan on using large south facing windows in addition to some type of sky light system...
thanks for any insight...

[crap]

Pardon me but... aren't most of you out of the house for work during the day? I think the Sola-tube works during daylight hours only right? So when you get home.. it should be dark = no more light.

So if you get home and you want to view your tank, you'll switch on the normal lights and you will extend your photoperiod to maybe another 5 hours before you go to bed?

Gosh... i am sure your algae will bloom! :p

[SPasse]

Crap,

Yes, not having the day/night cycle match you viewing preferences is one potential drawback.

However,

1 You can use lights of much lower intensity for viewing. Light levels that would not add much to your overall light input.

2 If a longer light cycle gives you an algae problem, there is an underling nutrient problem anyhow.

Providing “free” “natural” light to a reef via solar is a neat idea, even if it doesn’t provide 100% of your needs.

Regards,

Scott

[DgenR8]

One more thing to add Scott. The moon is out at night and does throw light. How many reefers bang their heads against the wall in an attempt to duplicate natural moonlight to encourage spawning etc.? I really think that depending on orientation, a solatube could get enough light from the moon to slightly illuminate a tank, quite possibly more than enough for viewing. And who knows, moonlight might just be a missing link to coral health.

[440cudaman]

I'm back.

LiquisShaneo,

I'm working on getting some pictures I have been traveling quit a bit lately so it hard to find the time.

Like I said I have four of the 10in tubes that sit about 2ft off of the surface of the water. The tank is 60 x 36 x 32 all glass. There is no support in the middle to block the light, and when I made the canopy I made the top open so that there were no obstructions.

I have a 6in deep sand bed and approximately 150lbs of hand made live rock (ARF Style). I went with the hand made rock so that I could make the structure as functional as possible but yet as reef friendly as I could. I have a friend that gave me some live sand from is reef to seed my tank.
I covered the top of my tank for 6 months with a shade cloth to keep the bulk of the sun out of the tank so that it could cycle (the best thing I have ever done and the hardest).

Once the tank had cycled I added a small protein skimmer (Turbo Floater) now I only use the skimmer for 8 hours a week and I do a 5% water change a week (Automated). I have one large 3/4 horse pump that runs a large rectangle spray bar type system located at the top of the tank. This creates a massive chaotic water flow that can only be described as (Intense).

No supplements are added to the water at all. The water changes take care of all the issues of water quality. And the extreme water flow combined with the open top takes care of the gas exchange and provides great glitter lines.

I have at least 50 types of SPS corals and five large clams (all farmed). The tank was setup as an experiment to prove that I could have a natural based reef tank that didn't need all that techno stuff and that would not take anything from the real reefs of the world.

The only thing I would do differently is have something like the Eco-Wheel that provided a more natural environment. I have been saying for the last 7 years that the artificial sounds in our systems have a negative effect on the animals we keep.

Again I would like to say I use NO supplemental lighting what so ever!!!!

Spasse,

I would agree that the number of sunny days is important but the number one concern is the intensity of light that you receive. Arizona has by far the most intense light in the U.S. except for parts of California. I bought a light meter to determine the number of tubes and how far to bring them to the surface of the water.

MchEdward,

I would like to know where you got your Eco-Wheel from. Here in Arizona there are no dealers that will carry this system.

The first tank I setup was the typical reef tank with Metal Halides and Protein Skimmers and Ozone and etc....etc....etc....etc.... The only people that have a problem with natural light are the people that have a nutrient problem. With the system I have now there has never been a problem with alga.

No heat is transferred to the tank by the Sola Tubes. That is a major issue in Arizona where it can reach to 120 degrees in the summer. I keep my house around 75 degrees in the summer and 65 in the winter.

DgenR8,

The amount of light that is reflected down is affected by the length of the tube, so I know for a fact that the tube would be to long to be effective in a two story house. I have a flat roof so it enabled me to have the shortest tube possible.

tic,

I looked into having a window that allowed light to enter the tank, the problem with that (in my opinion) is that the sun is in an optimal location for such a short period of time that it would not be beneficial. The other issue would be the heat during the summer and the cold during the winter entering in from the window could have a negative effect on the tank. Also the glare would be to distracting for me (in my opinion only).

crap,

I live in Arizona, we do not have daylight savings time so at 7:00pm it's still light outside (in the summer) also I work from 6:00am to 2:30pm so there is not an issue for me. I have all day on the weekends to view my tank, plus my wife doesn't work so she has all day to enjoy my efforts
:mad:

Like I said before there shouldn't be a problem with alga if the system is kept in good health. You can't produce alga without food for it.

SPasse,

Ditto. I would like to state that I'm trying to re-produce the reef as a whole and the sun is only out for so many hours a day and the fact the some of us are trying to extend the (viewing hours) is unnatural. I also disagree with the 12 hrs of light 7 days a week 365 days a year. The natural reef is not that way, what makes us belive that that is what's best for our animals.

DgenR8,

Amen to that, this is one of the reasons for setting this type of system up. When the moon is out on a clear night there is a tremendous amount of light in the tank, so much in fact that on a full moon the tank has glitter lines. I have a curtain that wraps around the tank a night so that the lights in the house don't penetrate the tank and so that on a full moon the house isn't filled with light.

I have had my clams spawn several times. The health of all my corals is incredible and they are growing like weeds. I thought that these things were hard to keep but with this tank I have had nothing but success. The only issue I have is that the cuttings I take from the parent colonies cannot be sold to anyone with a techno system.

I feel that that type of system will not provide the same environment that is achieved here.
Not to say that the techno system is inferior or will not work but that it is different and that the difference may have a negative effect on the animals.
And lets face it that is why were in this, to provide a stable environment that allows all the creatures we keep to thrive and flourish.

I hope this helps,

440cudaman

[tlc]

thanks for all the great insight. how has the nsl affected your coral colors. i am a fan of the neon look and have only seen a few nsl systems and the corals took on a brown beige appearance. if you were to compare the color of your tank to a metal halide bulb which one would best represent the color of your tank. my house is going to be a south facing passive solar home. i live in colorado and winter can get real cold. passive solar homes have maintained 75 degrees with no supplimental heating. i plan on providing good window coverings to prevent any unsightly glare when i am viewing the tank. i have been thinking about those tubes for quite some time. i am pleased to hear you have had success with them...

[440cudaman]

tlc,

I found that the colors of the corals did fade so I removed the U.V. protector that was on the tubes and the color came back better and brighter then ever.
I'm not sure what your asking about the color of the tank, so the corals are blue, green, yellow, pink and orange.
As far as the comparison to the color rendition index I would say that it's the same as that natural sun 65K but with this light it's not yellow it's white.
I've had metal halides in the past and that was when they were 65K bulbs and they were yellow in appearance. This is more like the 10K bulbs that we see on the market now.
I think that the green tint that we are used to seeing in this type of system is particulate matter (i.e. alga) in the water changing the visual appearance of the tank.
With the water changes that I do once a week make for extremely clear water giving the light a white appearance.
I think that this system is not for everyone, you need to be in the right location have the right amount of intense lighting and be willing to spend the money to experiment. I was afraid at first that this was the wrong thing to do but now I can't belive that I waited so long to do it.

I hope that you try this system out and it works for you, the only advice I would like to give you is BUY A LIGHT METER. It's not cheep but well worth the investment.

[SPasse]

Cuda,

I did some solar energy engineering in my younger days, and I still think that Denver would be a good candidate. The intensity in Denver is also helped by our altitude (less atmosphere) We do have more of a seasonal variance, being farther north. This might require a seasonal variance in supplementation etc. This would not be a big issue with an Aquacontroler or an Octopus.

Not to say that Denver wouldn’t require some supplementation though.

We would really like to see pictures of your tank and corals, seems like it might be a good candidate for Reef Tank Of The Month.

DgenR8,

The moonlight issue is another plus. Some of us are trying to simulate this with 25-watt blue incandescent party bulbs, controlled with Aquacontrolers. Real moonlight might very well be better.

Regards,

Scott

[tlc]

where did you get your light meter?

[440cudaman]

SPasse,

I think the altitude difference would be a good thing to explore to see if it had an effect on how the light is transmitted. Also I read some where that light is magnified by cloud cover, might be something to think about. I would not be surprised if you didn't need supplemental lighting. I think that adding any type of lighting would block some of the natural lighting that you worked so hard to achieve. If I were to add lights it would be on the outside walls of the aquarium and not the top.

Again, I will try to get some pictures as soon as I can, my schedule is a little hectic right now with being a program lead for the Apache and the B1-B.

I can't say enough about the quality and quantity of moon light that is being produced in the tank.
It amazes me how we ignore the possibility of the benefits of moon lighting.

tlc,

I bought mine off of a friend and I think he got it from:

http://www.omnicontrols.com

Check them out I think that they can answer all of your questions.

[DgenR8]

Scott,
I remember a thread here once discussing possible benefits of simulating moonlight for our animals. It was titled M.O.O.N. If I remember correctly and was started by our "resident mad scientist," Johnny ;)
Anyone that didn't catch this thread when it happened, should dig into that search feature and check it out. Some very interesting stuff in that thread.
In the thread Johnny was originally going to build his M.O.O.N. systems and sell them to us at cost. Demand turned out to be more than he could handle, I guess and the thread died out. Don't be disappointed if you put in an order and don't get a M.O.O.N., but do read the thread.

[LiquidShaneo]

Here's the thread that I was talking about on Reefkeepers:

http://www.escribe.com/pets/reefkeepers/index.html?by=OneThread&t=Sun%20Tunnel%27s%20-%20Natural%20light%20question

Sounded like there was a lot of interest in trying this last year but no one on the list had really done much with it. So far I haven't heard a peep about this subject since...

I would definitely agree, this tank would be an interesting one to have as Tank of the Month. :) In addition to highlighting the livestock for TOTM, I would definitely like to see a lot of detailed pics of the SolaTubes and how they were implemented.

(eagerly awaiting pictures and detailed diagrams) :D

Shane

[LiquidShaneo]

Doh! Forgot to ask my question before I hit reply. :D

Why did you go w/ the 10 inch SolaTubes and not the 21 inch ones that are out now?

10 inch: http://www.tubularskylight.com/10inch.html
21 inch: http://www.tubularskylight.com/21inch.html

Shane

[440cudaman]

LiquidShaneo,

The 10in tubes will fit between the studs in the roof without any modifications. If you look at the 21in on the web page you sent it says for "Schools, Warehouses etc...etc...etc... I don't think that anyone would want to hack up there roof to fit one of these in there (or would they??).

Being an Engineer I thought about how I could fit some of the BIG boys in the roof but the wife thought it was overkill (like most of my projects) so that put an end to that thought.

It is obvious that I should of gotten pictures BEFORE posting this thread. That way I could of avoided the picture police:D

[eddie]

what about useing a poly filter colar changer like in the poorman 10k artical over the tube hole to change the spectum?whould it work?

[440cudaman]

eddie,

What?????

After the U.V. blocker was removed there was no longer an issue with the corals changing color.

I don't understand why you would place a colored filter over the tube. The fact that any type of "filter" will reduce the amount of light would defeat the purpose.

I'm not sure what you talking about, but if I'm mistaken in my assumption please correct me.:)

[eddie]

have you read the poor man 10k artical ?it will change the light to 10k .just a thought

[440cudaman]

Eddie,

I don't think it's applicable. But you can't discount anything in this hobbie.

Interesting idea if you are using artificial lighting.

[SPasse]

Eddie,

One of the attractions of natural sunlight is it’s unaltered spectra.

Many SPS coral come from shallow water where there is very little shift from “unfiltered” sunlight.

Or perhaps you were addressing the aesthetics issue.

Just about any “filter” might also filter out too much UV.

(Hopefully this won’t set off another intensity vs. UV debate) ;)

Regards,

Scott

[MchEdward]

440cudaman
I got my ECO-Wheel directly from Aquatic Engeineers. 180 Gal tank and all. Shipping was not cheap! I beleive they are getting a few shops to sell them but i don't think there are many at this point. Love the system, natural, at least as much as an acrylic cube hundres of miles away from the ocean can be. That is why I was thinking about the solor tubes to round out the natural theam. I would love to see some picks.

[baja_01]

About how much do these solar-tubes cost?

[Brad A.]

Any pictures yet??

[David Corbett]

You have a light metter, how does the intensity of the solar tubes say at noon compare to maybe 400w halides. DOC

[SAT]

I've been doing some research on this topic myself, with the intent of putting a trio of 21" tubes over an ~300G reef we're building into a new house. The intention is for this to be the primary lighting, with just enough supplemental electric light for evening viewing.

If you believe the manufacturer's claims, a 13" tube is equivalent to approximately 100W of flourescent or MH lighting (Sun Pipe claims 300-500W of incandescent, which would be a bit more). A 21" tube should be equivalent to a good 250W MH bulb. The part that's unclear is the conditions where this is true. I would hope this is average for a mid-latitude clear day. If so, the peak noon-time output could be double that.

Looking at it another way, if 50% of the light that hits the dome is delivered over the tank, and if I'm expecting a 21" tube to light 4 square feet, I'll be getting 30% of full sunlight hitting the top of the tank. According to a diagram in Adey's book, the intensity here in Pennsylvania averages about 2/3 of tropical, so I'd be getting about 20% of full tropical sunlight --- maybe more like 25% in June and 15% in December. Even at 15%, that's probably brighter than a 10m deep reef gets in the tropics.

A net search will yield at least half a dozen sources for tubular skylights. For best results you want one that delivers the most light through the tube. The most efficient tubes go straight down with no bends and have very high reflectance on the walls. Since the light will reflect multiple times on the walls, a difference of a few percentage points in reflectance can have a dramatic effect. Some have an acrylic dome, which is less likely to yellow than other plastics. Some also offer a reflective collar that dramatically increases the light when the sun is at a low angle (e.g., in December). I'm planning to use Sun Pipe (http://www.sunpipe.com), which seems to have all the right features.

I have a quote to install a pair of 13" Sun Pipe tubes for $680 to go over a refugium. That's new construction, so I would expect an add-on to be more. The advantage of a 13" tube is it fits neatly between your rafters. I have no idea what my 21" tubes will cost... that's buried somewhere in the cost of the house. Assuming each 13" tube saves annually about $50 in electricity and $50 in fancy light bulbs, the 13" tubes will pay for themselves in about 3-4 years.

[David Corbett]

Sun Pipe's web site says the 13" models average output for a sunny day in Chicago in June is 750 watts, WOW, 250 watts in Dec. On cloudy days according to thier graphs the light level actually ramps up faster but peaks lower. They say the 21" model puts out 3000 watts, holy blowfish batman! The graphs are very encouraging, if accurate they show very immpressive light levels like 2800 watts at noon for a 13" and an acceptible level of out put for a good portion of the day. I just have to figure out how to work these into one of my setups.:D

[Ltspd]

I know I will be looking further into these, IMO this is a cost savings on larger tanks and the yearly savings would be very benifical compared to burning halides. Still I think that the use of halides and the sun pipes is a must, I also wonder how well actinics would do in conjuction with natural sunlight.

I think that it would be possilbe to "tube" down into a canopy style hood provided the structure of the ceiling allowed.

[matt_rogers]

wow, what a great idea - solar tubes! oh that gets me thinking... maybe some tubes on the tank and a refugium in the greehouse?!?
cudaman your tank sounds great. :cool:

[LiquidShaneo]

Ok...I'm going to ask an obvious question here: WHY would you need/want a set of SolarTubes in a greenhouse of all places? I mean it's already lit by the sun... :D

FWIW, when I move to a better location I'm definitely going to investigate this for my tanks. :)

Shane

[matt_rogers]

the tubes would be in my living room. the greenhouse is attached, but would be too much light and heat for the tank i would think, at least in the summer.

[Niven]

The Irony of it all:)

I just saw this post last Friday for the first time. I work as a mortgage broker and worked at this home and garden show this weekend. Well I went in there on Sat morning to see that Brighter Concepts Ltd - Solatude Tubular Skylights was right next to me! I had a break in the middle of the day, so I went and printed this out. When I had the chance, I talked to the sales guy, they were pretty busy. I showed this to him and he kind of just brushed it off (I think us addicted reefers scare people sometimes:)) He said it might be a decent market for them to get into. He didn't get a chance to read through all the post though. I did get a price list. To install a 10" solatube with a 2' tube it was $410, 4' tube $455, 12' tube $635. If you install yoursef, 4' tube $280, 6' tube $322. This is just to give you an idea, there were other options for sizes, length, fans and light fixtures to use at night. Seems very cool, but I want to see one in a home on a daily basis, before I would do it....especially in Wisconsin:D
HTH,
Gareth

[EdKruzel]

I just ran across this thread today. About 5yrs ago, here in El Paso I set up a 300 gallon for a friend and his family. We used 3 21'' tubes spaced evenly over his tank.

On the roof the tops are a bubble cap with a reflective dish pointing south. Light is reflected down the tube from sun up to sun down.
He had low wattage incandescent placed in the tubes that come on for evening viewing, however we don't get much cloud coverage in the Sun City and the moonlight usually overpowers the bulbs.
The tank is mostly SPS with a few huge LPS. Incredible colors on all the corals.

As a side note, he had a contractor cover the tubes with ceiling "popcorn" (texture) to match the walls and ceiling.

[Ltspd]

EdKruzel, was there a need to supplement the natural sunlight with actinic's? Seems like it could be yellowish with natural only

[ShipMate]

And....I'm still waiting to see some pics!....;)

[EdKruzel]

Hey L,
No actinics were used. The water had a clear white look, and the corals had great colors, but not quite that florescent shine/glow.

It was a very unique project that I wish I could have used in my present home. The tank location makes that impossible for my use.
I'm designing a new home and will build a fish room into the back.
2000+ gallons and natural lighting. I plan on using many of the ideas I read about from Richard Harker in the reef annual, minus all the really bad ideas he kept.
The idea of natural lighting was driven to me by Albert Thiel, of Thiel Aquatec.

Albert Thiel was a neighbor of mine and a friend. We discussed lighting issues on many occasions. One theory he had was to use fiber optics. Something I plan on pursuing. He left Las Cruses for Georgia and reefers here in the desert lost a friend and a great source of information.

Good Luck

[salt lick]

HiCudaman,
I am very interested in Solatubes, and was concerned about a couple of things. Is the bottom open on your installation? Is there any corrosion on the silver lining? Does moisture condensate inside the top dome?

".... so I removed the U.V. protector that was on the tubes ......"
I contacted Solatube customer service, and the guy told me the UV protection is built into the top acrylic dome. What did you remove? The bottom diffuser?

We would love to see a picture.

Bob

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by EdKruzel

Albert Thiel was a neighbor of mine and a friend. We discussed lighting issues on many occasions. One theory he had was to use fiber optics. Something I plan on pursuing. He left Las Cruses for Georgia and reefers here in the desert lost a friend and a great source of information.

Good Luck

HMMMMMM..... Fiber Optics, I think that might just deserve a thread of it's own.
I have some experience with Fiber Optic accent lighting. If this system can deliver the intensity we want, just think of the benefits of "no heat" lighting........

[Ltspd]

Originally posted by DgenR8


HMMMMMM..... Fiber Optics, I think that might just deserve a thread of it's own.
I have some experience with Fiber Optic accent lighting. If this system can deliver the intensity we want, just think of the benefits of "no heat" lighting........

But are fiber optics cost effective? Seems like it could be more expensive?

[chapman_jim]

Yes, I've started to look into using fiber for transmitting light from the roof down to the tank, but my preliminary inquiries suggest that the cost would be very high compared to the solar tubes. Also, there are issues of full spectrum transmission. Most fiber, and certainly not the more affordable stuff I'm told, is not designed to transmit white light so while the overall attenuation may not be too bad, you would suffer greater attenuation of certain frequencies meaning you would lose that "full natural sunlight" benefit.

I think cost is the reason that companies like Solatube and the others stay in business even though the use of fiber in lighting systems is getting pretty well established for specialty applications.

I'm still researching, though. I'm not an optical technician so I have to rely on what the various sales people tell me. Frisco should weigh in on this (if he posts on this board, I forget).

[duh, just noticed Frisco is a mod, sorry]

-Jim

[chapman_jim]

I was wondering why each of you chose the vendor you did for your tubes (SAT, I understand you haven't bought yet)? 440cudaman, why SolaTube? And SAT, why Sun Pipe? I looked at both products and the specs seem pretty competitive. I like SolaTubes 14" option a little better than Sun Pipes 13" just 'cause it's a little bigger, and should offer about 20 sq. in. more pipe for the light to come through. That's only about 15% though.

Your reasons?

-Jim

[SAT]

Originally posted by chapman_jim
I was wondering why each of you chose the vendor you did for your tubes (SAT, I understand you haven't bought yet)? 440cudaman, why SolaTube? And SAT, why Sun Pipe? I looked at both products and the specs seem pretty competitive. I like SolaTubes 14" option a little better than Sun Pipes 13" just 'cause it's a little bigger, and should offer about 20 sq. in. more pipe for the light to come through. That's only about 15% though.

Your reasons?

-Jim

Jim,

I actually have purchased... but the house isn't finished yet, so no useful experience.

My reading of the web sites convinced me that Sun Pipe would deliver more light than an equivalent from SolaTube and others. That's based partly on their language... they're clearly competing on that basis. The other brands compete mainly on their installation flexibility and other options. Sun Pipe also claims 97% reflectance, which is the highest of anyone. SolaTube claims 92-95%.

A few percent might not seem like much until you realized that light entering the center of the tube at 45 degress will reflect L/D times, where L is the length and D is the diameter. Light going down a 10' x 21" tube will reflect ~6 times. At 95% reflectance you get a yield of 73%. At 97% reflectance you get 83%. Light hitting off center will reflect more, so the difference could actually be greater than that.

Your best efficiency is for a tube that goes straight down, which is all Sun Pipe will do. In my installation that's no problem. If you need more flexibility in your installation you should choose a different brand. SolaTube has a way to "jog" their rigid tube. Sun Tunnel is actually a corrogated flexible tube (not very efficient but very easy to install).

My choice was made primarily for the 21" tubes going over the main tank. The 13" tubes are sort of an afterthought and we just went with the same brand. Whether the 14" SolaTube will yield more light would be an interesting experiment.

[Tafabub]

Why in gods name would you want to change it to 10K? You'd be reducing the intensity and blocking out a lot of light! If you want it more blue, throw in a few actinic VHO's.

Buba

[SAT]

I thought about changing it to 10K. The reason would be to make the colors look more natural, which means removing the reds & oranges, not just adding monochromatic blue. An 80C photographic filter would do the job. Kodak makes a gel filter in a 9x14 size. The trouble is they cost $236 each (at B&H) and I would need a whole bunch of them. Yes, you lose about 1/2 the light when you do that... but you would get true 10K light w. a CRI of nearly 100... which would be awesome. No artifical light comes close.

[LiquidShaneo]

OK, I'm obviously missing the logic on this one: adding a filter to filter sunlight to 10KK to make it more "natural"? Methinks the sun's light is pretty natural to me! :D Adding a filter would make it "artificial", no? :p

Shane

[PSYCHO]

Are you talking about covering your tank to keep out sunlight? If so, you have to do this. In the wild your livestock would normally be much further under the surface. At 6" from the top of the ocean (or your tank) the direct sunlight would be damaging your corals. "10k" is a strain of light that penetrates only deeper waters of about 100' deep!

[SAT]

If you've ever been diving you know that the colors look really strange, even in relatively shallow water. That's what I mean by "natural". For reference, 10K is the color you get when you put a white object in a spot lit by blue sky, shaded from the sun. That's equivalent to some depth of water lit by direct sun, but I believe it's a lot less than 100 feet.

I would consider filtering if (a) I thought I had more than enough light to begin with and (b) the filters weren't so bloody expensive.

[br1200]

Just as a side issue. Is it possible to see pic/s of the setup and the tank ?
Personally I think that the pics would speak for themselfs

Thanks

[tleip]

cuda,

Just in case you haven't seen this:

http://www.azsolarcenter.com/benefits/543.pdf

I think we could qualify for the 25% tax credit for the solar tubes (a tax credit for my hobby, hard to believe). I'm looking at doing the solar tube approach for my next tank, I've just got to see if I can hide them from view on the street and still get enough sun exposure.

Terry

[ShipMate]

C'mon Solatube users ! Let s see some pics!!:spin3:

[mjsandbe]

A picture is worth a thousand words, also seeing is believing(assuming the pic is good enough to look for coral health)

[matt_rogers]

Cuda dropped off the face of the earth!

I am beginning to think he works for Solar Tubes !!!!
:mad:


If anyone lives in Arizona, grab your digital camera and go track this guy down!

[Aquaman]

Finally decided to read this thread from start to finish. Now I'm interested, I own a moble home and the roof is not that high where the tank is at, the peak being maybe 4' at the most! and living in Florida I'm thinking I get plenty of light. Although I do have a tree that starts to shade the house after about 2pm or so. But during the first half of the day I get full sunlight.

I'm wondering how much I could save on my power bill. Peak summer I pay about $250 and during winter about $170 or so. If I could remove my 2 400watt 1 175 watt and the IceCap 660 man that would be some saving. This has really got me thinking....

Where are those pictures...

[ByTor]

Here's a thought.

Spectral aluminum sheet.
Take 2 pieces of 12"x72" ($42ea.) forum your own tube, pop rivet the seams, cut to length... Now as for the dome, I'm still working on that. I do have a few interesting ideas;)

I've always thought of using this method of lighting. Just the price was always the killer.

They are in my new tanks future! along with 2 6'x12' bow windows...:)

[SAT]

ByTor,

The tube materials used in the better tubular skylights supposedly reflect much better than polished aluminum. That's a selling point for SolaTube and SunPipe. What you describe would probably be fine for a short tube, but be prepared for considerable loss through a long one.

You might try purchasing extension tubes from a tubular skylight distributor. I don't think they're very expensive.

For a dome... good luck :). That's probably the most expensive part. The trick is to come up with something you can seal from the weather. For myself, I would never put a DIY hole in my roof. It's much too easy to create leaks.

Also, you'll want to cover and seal the bottom opening. If you get warm humid air up there, it will rain inside during the winter.

Before you decide the price is a killer, you might try pricing them. Considering you get everything you need, a tubular skylight doesn't seem all that expensive. I'd tell you how much mine cost except that's between my builder & his supplier.

[wetgirl]

where are the pictures???? where are the pictures???? where are the pictures????:smokin:

[taekim78]

where ar ethe pics????????????//

[ikan]

guess.... I'm gonna stick to my old big bulb.....and I think I had a feeling if this guy must be working with solatubs company....you know how the salesman works.....beside my landlord would kill me if wreck my roof for solatub :D

[SAT]

The tubes are finally going in... here's inside our great room. The bottom 3' of tubing isn't installed yet... they'll eventually extend down to the 2x4 near the bottom of the picture. That's about 18" above the top of the tank.

What you're seeing is a trio of 21" Sun Pipes.

The light meter in my camera indicates that a high percentage of the light hitting the top of each tube is coming out the bottom. Not a very precise measurement, but good enough to make me very happy. :D

[SAT]

And here they are on the roof.

[Rica]

Please post pics when all is done, thanks.

[matt_rogers]

Alright, somebody is doing it that will actually post pics! Thanks SAT!

Weren't you originally going with 13" tubes? Decided to super-size it, eh? :D

Are you still going with a 300 gallon tank? Are you waiting to see on the supplemental lighting? How much heat is coming out of those tubes?

Thanks again,



:D :D :cool:

[SAT]

The pair of 13" tubes are going over the ATS... they're not in yet. The 300G gets the 21" tubes. I plan to supplement with a pair of 6' VHO's over the main tank, and I'm not sure yet about the ATS (maybe a 150W HQI).

I have no way to measure the heat, but it feels like sunlight, so I guess a lot of the infrared is coming through. It's better than a typical skylight, or even a window, because it's sealed top and bottom with a huge air space. So the main heat coming in will be radiation, not by conductivity or infiltration. I suspect it's an order of magnitude less heat than from equivalent MH lamps (it certainly won't burn me if I touch it :)).

[matt_rogers]

That's great. I look forward to your updates Stuart ... please don't dissapear like Cudaman!

[LiquidShaneo]

Stuart,

I'd love to see some lux meter readings on that! :) Hrmm...I remember seeing something on RAMR about correlating camera settings w/ lux readings. Lemme see if I can find that...

Shane

[SAT]

The trouble with a camera is it's only accurate to 1/2 f-stop, or about 25%. The difference in light between outside and right under the tube seems to be less than that.

Another problem is the light exits the tube at the same angle that it entered. Mid-day, it will go right down into the tank, but early and late it goes out the side. For normal lighting applications, they fix that by putting a semi-opaque dome underneath the tube. That spreads out the light, but also absorbs about 60% of it. I figure the way to deal with this is to build a light box between the tank and the tubes using reflective mylar -- let it bounce until it hits the water. It's possible an egg-crate diffuser will also help.

[LiquidShaneo]

Any idea how you're going to keep a heavy snow off of those collectors Stuart? I notice you're from PA...

Shane

[SAT]

Shane,

Last winter we didn't get enough snow for it to be a problem. Next winter... who knows. My roof is flat and pretty easy to get up on (no ladder required), so one answer is I go clean it off if there's a heavy accumulation. Another answer is the tank can be dark for a few days without too much damage.

[Kenzy]

Very nice Stuart! Please keep us updated, they look very promising.

[kevinpo]

Very interesting thread! I was wondering how you would keep moisture/condensation off the inside of the dome in the winter time. With the warm tank water and high humidity above the tank will there be a problem of it rising to the top of the tube and condensing on cold winter days/nights?

Regards,
Kevin

[SAT]

The bottom of the tube is supposed to be sealed to keep humid air out. Also, the weather stripping between the acrylic dome and the top of the tube is like a brush, which probably allows some ventilation (that weather stripping is well covered by the dome, so no worries about water getting in). With a little luck, the dry outside air will dilute the warmer air inside the tube, resulting in a mix that won't condense. We'll see.

In practice, a little bit of condensation in the dome matter much. I just don't want it to drip down the sides.

[Aquaman]

Good to see this thread picked up again. Nice pictures, As I was driving home the other day Same way I go every day I noticed for the first time a SolaTubes store in a small plaza. I havent had the time to stop and talk but I'm off this friday and If I have the time I may swing by and chat with them.

[EdKruzel]

The SolarTubes out here in Tx are sealed pretty good.
My buddy has been using them on his reef since early '96.

He has just torn down his tank and moved to Miami. I believe he's going to do the same out there.

Aquaman, how's the fish stores in Orlando? My wife and I are contemplating a move out there in the next few years. Its all depending on our jobs and the outcome of Home Land Security.

There must be a better selection than here in the desert.

Later...
Ed

[Aquaman]

Ed, there are a few good stores in town and a few crappy stores in town. their are a number of stores in Tampa as well. We have a good reef club here now, 40 or more members now I think and close to $1000 in our treasurery. Alot of reefers here doing the fragging. I hope to be setting up a few outdoor growouts this year, take advantage of all that Florida sunshine ;)

[Groove]

Hi SAT,
I don't expect your project to be done, but would love an update. I thought about doing this before I bought my IceCap. I posted this thought to another forum (nameless...) and was shot down for my crazy idea. I hate the thought of spending $1,000 on lights to only have to replace bulbs and pay that electric bill every month.

Thanks

[SAT]

Groove,

There's not a lot of progress to report yet except the tubes are now extended their full length. The tank is scheduled to go in on June 14, but it will probably be a month before I can consider putting any water in it.

The construction crew thinks the tubes are awesome. Underneath is always the brightest part of the house, even early in the morning when they show up. There's an illusion that there's more light under the tubes than outside. By comparison, direct sunlight coming through the low-E windows is quite dull.

The color varies quite a bit according to the weather. On clear days it's a "sunny" yellow. On cloudy days it's more blue/grey. Both are kind of wierd indoors.

[EdKruzel]

SAT,
Just curious why the reflective dish is not in the top dome.

On the tubes I set up there was a reflective dish nearly half as large as the dome attached inside. The dish was mounted to point south which enables it to extend the photoperiod morning and early evening when the sun is lowest.

Was this option available?

Thanks,

Ed

[SAT]

Ed,

Yes, I think a reflector option is available. I may add them later. Since the tubes are lined up north-south, there was some concern that a reflector on one tube would shadow another.

My understanding is the reflector makes little difference in the spring & summer, but can significantly boost the light during the low-angle months in the fall and winter.

[SAT]

Ed,

Do you have a picture of the reflector on your tubes?

Thanks,

[EdKruzel]

SAT,
Sorry, but I don't have any pics. The tubes are unfortunetly not on my tanks.
My personal tanks are situated in the house so that the tubes would have to go through the center of my master bedroom.
(Wife would kill me)

In early '96 I set-up a tank for a friend and recommended three tubes. He went with three 21'' tubes over his 300gal.

This was the only lighting used and his corals thrived and reproduced.
The coralline was incredible.

This tank was broken down recently and the owner sold the house and moved to florida.

I intend on using these tubes when I build my next home. The tank will be poured concrete and its dimensions will be 20'L x 6'W x 5'H, one foot deep DSB and the natural light. I can't wait...

Ed

[JL9210]

SAT,

You mentioned earlier that the tubes would be completed on 6/14. Just trying to get an update and any pictures during throughout the day would be highly appreciated. How's the moonlight absorption?

John.

[SAT]

John,

The aquarium installation was put off a couple of weeks, partly because the installer wasn't ready and partly because my builder really doesn't want it to show up yet. Drywall is just going in this week.

The tubes themselves are installed. Pictures probably won't be meaningful until the tank is running, which won't be for a few more months.

The light quality is "interesting". On cloudy days, I get uniform bluish light spread underneath the tubes. It's much brighter than you might expect, perhaps because it's catching light from all directions.

When it's sunny, there are several different effects. The round tubes tend to focus light so there are "hot lines" that resemble what waves produce, except they move much much slower. The combination with surface waves should be interesting. Also, most of the light exits the tube at the same angle it entered. At noon, most of the light is headed down, so I get a bright round spot, slightly larger than the tube, right under it. At other times, I get a big bright circle spread across the room, with a much less intense area inside it. I'll have to put reflectors around the top of the tank to direct that light into the aquarium instead of the room.

I havn't seen moonlight yet, but I expect it to have the right color and the right intensity relationship to sunlight (I have yet to hear of a moon lamp that isn't at least 1000X brighter than natural moonlight). And of course I don't need a timer. :) I think the moon will be good for biological cycles, but don't expect it to be much good for viewing.

[JL9210]

SAT,

Sounds exciting. I just wish I had an example to look at before making any purchasing decisions. I definately want to head in that direction for lighting. I currently have placed a 25 gallon reef setup in my greenhouse. Temperature control might be an issue. We'll have to see.

Thanks for the quick response. Looking forward to your updates in the months to come.

One last quick question... I've heard the 21'' solatubes can put out close to 3000 watts during June at noon. Sounds a bit intense for those corals? Ever think about bleaching effects? Or is that not possible? MH lights often have that effect, could directed sunlight cause a problem like that as well?

Something to think about... why hasn't anyone invented some sort of magnifying glass that absorbs sunlight and targets it? Shouldn't it be relatively simple to design? Cheap to produce?

Hmm...

Anybody get any leads on the fiber optics end? This thread lost that momentum a few pages back...

John.

[SAT]

John,

Bear in mind that the "3000 Watts" refers to incandescent lighting. That's equivalent to under 1000W of MH or fluorescent.

The tubes can't deliver more light than hits them. The tank has a 16 square feet surface area and the tubes have a total of about 8 square feet, so the maximum average intensity is 1/2 of sunlight. Assuming loss of 1/2 the light through the tubes, we're down to about 25%. I think that should be safe, particularly since the seasonal changes will be very gradual.

I think the tube output may indeed be more intense than typical MH lamps during short periods of the day (I think the "3000 Watt" figure is averaged over a number of hours and doesn't account for the focusing effect of the round tubes), but I think most animals can tolerate short periods of intense light.

There are a few advantages over MH besides the lack of electricity. One is I get a lot less heat. The manufacturer claims there's hardly any, although I think some infrared gets through. So much for needing evaporative cooling. Another advantage is the light is moving through the day, so I shouldn't get constant hot spots. I think one of the problems with MH is it doesn't move, so some close locations get baked and the corals only receive light from one or two directions, none of which is natural.

Another difference is the sunlight is from a very distant source, so the inverse square law doesn't have much effect within the confines of the tank. The bottom of the tank should be lit almost as intensely as the upper parts, as long as it's not shaded. That may or may not be good, depending on what you're trying to do.

[eddie]

sat
fwiw my mh does move (on a star trac hydroponic light mover)
love the solar tubes
i saw some cheap ones for barns and have thought of using some over a prop tank in my barn

[scot]

eddie,
Do you have a link for those barn solar tubes?

[Krusk]

took me quite some time to finished from the beginning.

SAT and Ed

please keep us posted, when you have updated on your project.

This is beatiful.

[eddie]

scot
ill find the link and post it

[scot]

Thanks Eddie,
I've been looking into DIYing Solar Tubes, but if I can find a well constructed kit at a decent price that would be the way to go.

All the kits I've found around here use plastic flanges on the roof. I really don't think that's going to last.

[eddie]

dont think this was the link for barns but they are very cheap
this link was posted by a reefer on this board before this treadsolarbright.com/Prices.htm (http://)
the barn ones were only like $90
ill keep looking and find them

[eddie]

that link was posted by Rica in advanced topics a few months before this one i think
his tread was called
using sun for natural lighting
the hyperlink doesnt work for me on this tread but it does on his
i try to type it all
http://www.solarbright.com/Prices.htm
btw these use galvinized flanges

[eddie]

jl9210 a guy in raliegh nc told me richard harker had a fiber optic lit tank in raleigh
i havent seen it though

[scot]

Eddie,
Thanks for the link.

Those tubes are only 10" in diameter and $269. I could get 12" tube kit for $169 @ Lowes, & 14" tube kits for $249, but they all use plastic flanges.

[eddie]

i wish i could find the link for the barn tubes
someone posted the link for the company that carried them but i dont know where yet

[JL9210]

Eddie,

Thanks for the INFO. I'll look into it.

[absolutc]

Looks as tho those tubes are coated in the same fashion as the space helmet shields the astronauts use.

Intresting.

[medrvwrx]

I just wanted to see if there was anything further on this, as I might be moving to Scottsdale sometime soon.

Tony

[biomekanic]

maybe I missed this post, but is there some way to find out if this would be an appropriate lighting choice for your area? I live in Eugene, OR. 1/2 the year it's monsoon season, the other half is pretty sunny.

[finsandcritters]

I'd sure like to see some pictures of some tanks using them. I am really considering them. I may just get some and post pictures myself.........Hmmmmm........

[dizzy]

I would just like to mention that one should be cautious when cutting holes in their roof to get light to their tank. You might do more damage to your house than you will save in energy consumption. The Waikiki Aquarium and other public institutions have been using natural sunlight for many years. This method can be very successful in summer months, but the lower lighting levels in winter still need to be supplimented with high intensity lighting like metal halide. The discovery of the later lead to Waikiki's impressive longevity success with Tridacna Gigas.

[finsandcritters]

Do you guys think there is a difference between Home Depots tubular skylight and the brand name SolaTube?

[Agu]

I've been following this thread since it's inception, and may soon be able to follow through with the idea. We're moving to the west coast of Florida. There should be enough daylight if I supplement with VHO's (actinics?). The only problem is that the house has a barrel tile roof. Can a solatube be installed on this type of roof?

Finsandcritters, the efficiency and light transfer of a ceiling light tube is a function of the reflectivity of the tube. The cheap home depot fixtures may be false economy. Do they display light transfer statistics?

Agu

[scubadude]

Originally posted by Agu
The only problem is that the house has a barrel tile roof. Can a solatube be installed on this type of roof?

Agu

Hey Agu :)

does your roof look like this?
http://www.rtsc.com/images/antiq6.jpg

I would think with some slight modifications of your roof it could be installed w/out any problems. Let me know if you need help if you DIY I could come over and help ya! I have been wanting to install some of these anyway to see how they work as I might do some myself

[finsandcritters]

Solatubes have roof flashings for all style roofs. If you look at the site they have flashing for the tiles roofs.

[kysard1]

The 21" diameter tube is the only one that comes close to having the required output. Remember that 10 watts of incandescent = 1 watt of MH.

[H20ENG]

Bump

I was thinking you could DIY these cheap with a good pane of glass, some flashing and sealant, some Mylar or spectral Al for the actual transmission tube, and some kind of lens at the bottom.

SAT, any updates?

You people with natural light got it made. I want to save on the power bill. Still use supplemental light though.

Scubadude, Your system seems to be doing well. I wonder how it'd work for me. I'm a little further north of the equator than you. 38 deg. lattitude. Lots of Hot sunny days at my house though.
Chris

[SAT]

Originally posted by H20ENG
SAT, any updates?

Chris,

The house is taking quite a bit longer than expected. At one time I thought I might be able to start up the aquarium in July... now it looks like January.

I can tell you that the tank is very pleasingly lit. The duration and intensity are quite a bit lower than in June, so I may need more supplementation for the winter months than previously estimated. I may also install the "light scoops" which help gather more light at low angles.

[H20ENG]

Thanks for the update!
I know what you mean about construction taking longer than you tought. I have been remodeling for about 3 months longer than expected:rolleyes:
Chris

[nematode]

SAT,
tubes look nice, but I don't get why you didn't simply install one large rectangular sky light that was `~ 24 X 72 ( span the length of the three 21" tubes )and paint the walls of that "chimney area where the three 21" tubes are coming down flat white. Iwould have thought that would have brought more light down to your tank than the 3 21" solar tubes, and it would have been signficantly cheaper.
What is it that I am not getting?

[SAT]

nematode,

I considered a large skylight. Certainly that could be made to work. I chose the tubes for ease of construction and maximum light delivery. My trio of tubular skylights allow rafters to run between them, so the maximum span that has to be framed is 2'. A 6'x2' skylight requires a much more complicated structure. The labor savings is substantial... and I think you'll find a 6' traditional skylight isn't cheap to begin with.

Tubular skylight surfaces reflect around 95% of the light that hits them. I believe that's much better than you can do with paint. Most of the time the sunlight will be entering at an angle, reflecting off the walls multiple times. The difference between, say, 90% reflection and 95% reflection can be quite substantial after half a dozen bounces. Thus, I believe tubular skylights deliver more usable light than equivalent traditional skylights.

Finally, consider that my trio deliver light fairly evenly across the top of the tank. A single large skylight will tend to favor one part of the tank over another, varying with the time and season.

[H20ENG]

install one large rectangular sky light that was `~ 24 X 72

This is essentially what I was saying but using Mylar as the reflective surface rather than paint. Anyone have any reflective % #s for Mylar or spectral aluminum?

[Danables]

does anyone have a pics of there sola tubes and of there tank?

[SeanT]

This may be a dumb question, but I would still like an answer to it. :D

Are we positive it is just light wavelengths that make corals healthy?
What about the types of radiation the sun produces and is absobed by the corals?
I know radiation can be reflected, however, the radiation itself is degraded by the quality of the mirrors and the number of times it is reflected.
So, having said that, has anyone actually 'measured' the exit light from one of these tube and compared that with direct light from outside?

[Corpus Callosum]

oops

[Surfcaster]

Lets keep this thread going, I am thinking about going with the natural lighting (solar tubes) instead of MH.

Can we see some updated pics from you soar tube users.

[kysard1]

The thread died because it won't work unless you use huge tubes and live in the desert. The wattage comparisons are to incandescent which is 10% of Metal Halide. Won't work. Would be better off bulding a slanted mirror top and put your tank in front of a window but then you would run a chiller and still be losing on the electric bill.

[AuroraDave]

Originally posted by kysard1
The thread died because it won't work unless you use huge tubes and live in the desert. The wattage comparisons are to incandescent which is 10% of Metal Halide.
Kysard1--
Those are the stats that we have been trying to get.
Where did you get the readings and how did you measure it?

[SAT]

I think Kysard1's dismissal of the concept is a little harsh. Back in April I compared light levels by putting a photographic grey card on top of the tank, checking the level with my camera meter, and repeating the experiment outside. The camera meter showed no difference.

A camera meter uses a logorithmic scale, so it takes a substantial (say 20%) difference to register. So, let's say I got 80%.

According to Adey's charts, late April sunlight isn't much different here (SE Pennsylvania) than in many areas of the tropics. It's actually higher in May/June/July. However, in December the sun only delivers 50% and the tubes are less efficient at collecting what is delivered. The lower sun angle means less light enters the tube in the first place, it bounces more times, and it leaves the tubes at an awkward angle. Thus, I think the tubes will supply the light I need for about 6 months of the year (equinox to equinox) but will need significant supplementation during the winter.

So Kysard1 is right that these tubes aren't the whole answer. However, even with supplementation, the tubes will save a lot of electricity. I'm estimating a 60% savings on the average for myself. Plus the tubes generate a lot less waste heat and deliver a high CRI -- even after the light bounces around in the tubes for a while.

[kysard1]

The camera meter is probably not the best for this. I use a GE Ftcandle meter on the tubes and the only version which was close to a 150W MH was the 21" version with only a 6 ft tube (no turns) and a very bright SE PA (small world York here) sunny summer day. Sorry but who would want 3 or 4 close 21" holes in their roof? I think a better method could be made using a south window if you could engineer around the heat

[Surfcaster]

It sounds like sloar tubes are best used to suppliment the artificial light, there by using less electicity and giving our creatures at least some natural light. I especially think the moonlight the tubes bring into the tank is very benefitial to coral spawning. So there is a practical use for the tubes.

[mfranklin]

I got to this thread through another thread I started so I am bringing it back to life.

SAT do you have any more updates or pics?

[SAT]

Originally posted by mfranklin
SAT do you have any more updates or pics?
Still have a ways to go. Finishing the rest of the house has taken priority over the aquarium. The tank has water in it, but only to prove the plumbing and encourage any settling to occur before I fill it for real. We'll move in January. I doubt I'll have any coral in it before spring.

[scot]

SAT

How does the intensity of the light look with water in the tank?

[SAT]

Originally posted by scot
How does the intensity of the light look with water in the tank?
Scot, it looks rather dim right now, but that's not surprising considering the mitigating factors: It's right at the winter solstice, the sun is actually below the tips of the trees (which mercifully don't have any leaves), the low-angle sunlight has to do a lot of bouncing in the tubes, the tubes currently have a light coating of construction dust, and the water isn't clear enough to see the length of the tank!

Ask again in a couple of months. :)

[scot]

SAT,

Your not making my decision any eaiser, but thanks for being honest. I plan on supplementing with 1 20K 400w in the center and 2 140w VHO actinics. I may have to trade the 400w for two 250watters. My goal is to try and keep the power bill down but still have lots of light.
I still think there's lots of benifits to the tubes even if the intensity's not up to par (lol). The natural light, constantly changing intensity plus the natural moon light and cycles. I'm going to buy a tube to experiment with after the holidays.

Please keep us posted
Thanks
Scot

[SAT]

Scot,

I won't comment on how many Watts your system needs, but I basically agree with the sentiment. At best, I figure my setup will deliver adequate light during the Summer and half of what I need during the Winter.

[andrejka]

SAT,

Any progress? You should be getting enough light now :)
Seriously, I hope you didn't give up the idea. Bought any corals yet?

[skylsdale]

Is ANYONE ever going to post pics??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[SAT]

...keeping me waaaaaaaaaaaaaiting... Wow, this thread has a life of its own!

My tank is still cycling. The nitrites have been hovering at 1ppm for about 3 weeks and I'm really getting tired of it! :hammer: Once they clear I'll add the next batch of live rock. We'll see about the primary inhabitants, like corals, after that cycle completes. Then we'll see about some pretty pictures of corals in sunlight. :) I'm trying to do this right, so don't hold your breath.

I measured the noon-time light intensity last week, a few days before the equinox... it was about 5-10% of full outdoor sunlight at the sand bed and about 20% at the canopy. I was pleased to see nice glitter lines on the bottom of the tank. I figure that's enough light for deep water species, but will need supplements for anything else. Maybe once I clean the dust out of the tubes everything will look better (it's an ugly task and I've been procrastinating ever since the weather improved).

The good news is I managed to control the air leakage from the RCSD. When that sucker fires, everything in the tank waves back & forth. :rollface:

[andrejka]

Thank you for the update, Stuart!

I won't let this thread die until we see some pics... :D

[H20ENG]

Glad to hear of the progress! We want to see your RCSD, too!
Chris

[buff1]

I looked into this solar tube idea about 3 years ago and couldn't find any decent info. I'm thrilled to see the idea actually being tested. I had a couple of thoughts. First, if you had a south facing pitched roof and the dome was tilted to match the slope of the roof, I would think the amount of light entering the tube would increase greatly. Second, I would think you would benefit by bringing the bottom of the tube as close to the waters surface as possible while still allowing access.

I also followed a thread about fiber optics over on reefs.org. I think there is a lot of potential there, but it would almost certainly need a sun tracking collector on the roof, which adds a lot to complexity and cost. Still, the potential is very exciting! I love this stuff, let's keep this thread going!

Also, a word of caution about going cheap on the solar tube. I had a solar tube installed in my pantry when our house was built. It was only a 10" and we got it at home depot. I think the reflectivity is much lower than the high end ones mentioned here because it is quite unimpressive. It lights the room enough during the day that you can find what you need, but I would estimate that for most of the day (ie: the sun not directly overhead) it is about the equivalent of a 25 watt bulb. This is not a light meter measurement, just my best estimate.

[SAT]

buff1,

<img src="/images/welcome.gif"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

Good points. I think you are right that angling it would be more efficient. The manufacturers' instructions generally say to point the tube straight up. Some models don't allow bends, so this could be an issue for them. You may also find the dome seal will allow leakage if it's not vertical (my domes are sealed with brush-style weather stripping).

I also agree the tubes should come as close to the water level as practical. The light doesn't normally come straight down the tube, so the more distance the less light you get.

[SAT]

OK, time for some pictures. I took these this morning around 10:15AM, about 2-3 hours before peak sunlight. The total tank size is 96x24x30H (nominally 300G), but if you take out the hidden areas & sand bed, it really more like 78x24x24H (about 200G). It's lit by three 21" skylights and 320W VHO (URI, one actinic one 50/50). When the sun is out, the VHO contribution isn't obvious to the eye.

I'm using a Canon A60 balanced for sunlight, with no flash. I use Photoshop to adjust the contrast levels and reduce the saturation (the camera is overly color sensitive to my eye).

Here's the center section of the tank (the remainder is mostly open and doesn't photograph well).

[SAT]

Here's an Oculina robusta frag that broke off the main colony during shipping. I epoxied it to a hunk of dead millipora about 8" below the water line. That was less than two weeks ago. To my eye it seems to be starting to grow over the epoxy.

[SAT]

Here's some Briareum and Ricordea that I got from Reeftopia last week. The Briareum hasn't fully opened yet. Note the color of the Ricordea, which I think comes out pretty well in the sunlight.

[SAT]

Here's some Cladocora. The small center & upper left colonies came in on the first chunk of live rock in February and somehow survived the cycling. The larger colony on the right came in about 2 weeks ago. The small center colony appears to have grown and developed some color -- green polyp centers -- since introduction.

[SAT]

And here's some Halimeda, which has started growing nicely in the last week or so, now that the micro algae is under control and the calcium levels are up.

[Jimbo327]

How about a picture of the tubes? :D And a whole tank shot with tubes in the picture to see the light intensity? Much appreciated!

Jim

[SAT]

Here's one taken close to noon for comparison.

[SAT]

And here's one with the panels open. All you can see is the bottom of the tubes and the 2 VHO strips right below them.

[photobarry]

That looks nice and bright!

-Barry

[H20ENG]

SAT,
Thanks for the update! You've just made a lot of curious reefers happy!
How is the RCSD working out?
Chris

[SAT]

Originally posted by H20ENG
SAT,
Thanks for the update! You've just made a lot of curious reefers happy!
How is the RCSD working out?
Chris You're welcome. :)

The RCSD is working pretty well. It fires about once a minute, creating a 1" wave that travels the length of the tank and then bounces back and forth for about 10 seconds. The effect appears quite natural. It is rather noisy though... I have it pretty well muffled but even so it isn't for everyone.

[H20ENG]

Do you have details of your RCSD on another thread? If not, we want 'em!!:D
Volume, airflow, slot opening, etc.
It seems I read about yours once, but lost it. I came up with a baffle box to muffle the noise and water spray from the RCSD exhaust. Let me know if you want more details.
Chris

[SAT]

There's a few RCSD details here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144989

I experimented with mufflers too. I ended up just spewing the exhaust across the surface of the tank. That works because the tank cover contains the spray and the aquarium closet is sound insulated.

[Jimbo327]

Nice shot of the full tank. It's pretty darn bright! I can imagine the energy savings with the solar tubes. Very cool. What are your stocking plans for this baby? SPS, I hope.

Jimmy :D

Keep us updated with the progress. :rollface:

[SAT]

Originally posted by Jimbo327
What are your stocking plans for this baby? SPS, I hope. It's a Caribbean/Florida biotype reef. I'd love to have a thicket of Acropora cervicornis or A. prolifera and some Agaricia, but that's not in the cards. For the time being I'll have to be happy with the Oculina robusta, what came in on the live rock, gorgonians, and polyps. Then again, maybe I'll break down and stick in a few Indo-Pacific look-alikes.

For fish, I'm thinking a group of yellowhead jawfish (the frame hides the 6" sand bed), a harem of royal grammas, and something that schools. I'm having trouble with that last part... not a lot of great choices.

[baja_01]

and something that schools. I'm having trouble with that last part... not a lot of great choices.
Chalk basses!!! Cool little fish that are supposed to school. I know Reeftopia.com (http://www.reeftopia.com/marinefishdeals.html) has them.

[andrejka]

Thank you, Stuart!

I just came back from trip to Florida. Went snorkeling on Key Largo too! With images of real reef still fresh in memory, I do think that your tank looks VERY natural!!! The colors are absolutely pleasing to my eye (I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of overly blue tanks though).
Interesting rockwork too! I really like it.
As to the choice of schooling fish, it's too bad that Longspine Cardinalfish (http://www.wamas.org/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=96) come from Indian Ocean....
I take it you wouldn't want a school of Sergeant Majors in your tank either :)

Please, keep us updated.

[SAT]

Thanks Andrey! That's the effect I was going for. :)

The longspine cardinal is interesting... but not really an option for this tank. I considered flame cardinals, but I think I would never see them.

Sergeant Majors would be cool... I used to catch 1/2" specimens in tide pools and they were really cute. If only I could keep them from growing past 1/2". :rollface:

baja_01, I think chalk bass are cool too. However, I believe they mill around in loose aggregates rather than schooling. I'm going for the zebra danio / neon tetra look -- without much success.

I'm surprised no one sells silversides. I saw some really interesting ones at the Bermuda Aquarium.

[lead]

Hey Stuart,

That is pretty coool! I just found your thread tonight and read the whole thing. I was wondering about the UV shielding on the dome. Did you take the UV filter off the dome or is it still on the dome?
Lead:bum:

[SAT]

Originally posted by lead
I was wondering about the UV shielding on the dome. Did you take the UV filter off the dome or is it still on the dome? Hi Lead! Glad you enjoyed it.

I didn't do anything special for UV. I replaced the diffuser with a clear acrylic sheet, but I doubt that affected the UV. I don't know how much UV gets through the acrylic dome and is reflected by the walls, but I suspect it's a fair amount -- particularly since my corals are showing some color change. In any case, I doubt sunlight is as hazardous as many MH lamps.

BTW, I am definitely getting some heating from the sunlight, so infrared is coming through. I don't think it's as much as equivalent artificial lamps but I can tell the difference.

[SAT]

Lead,

And by the way,

[welcome]

:)

[lead]

Hey thanks stuart,

Please keep me posted on how well your tank is doing. I am very interested in cutting my electric bill and have a more natural looking tank. How much did the 21" tubes cost you? My wife and I are currently making blueprints for our next home. My wife and I made a deal that she can plan out the house as long as I can have my new aquarium and greenhouse as part of the home. We are about a year out before we start actually building. I think that I am in big trouble with her designing the home. My wife has very expensive taste. You probably know how that is. I am planning on building a new tank for the house. I am want the tank to be 10 feet long, 4 feet wide, and 3 feet tall. I think you have solved my lighting problem. Now all I need to do is figure out how big to make the sump, refugium, and how much current to have. Do you have any suggestions for the size of sump, refugium, and the amount of current? I plan on having a lot of acropora, montipora, and few soft corals. Please keep me posted on the details of of your tank. I would like to know how much light, heat generated by the tubes, and any other specific that you care to share. Also I would like to know if you have any trouble with algea or red slime during the summer months. I would like to see some more pictures of your tank. I would like to see how the sunlight affects the color of the corals. I would sure appreciate your help. :)
Ed

[SAT]

Ed,

Good luck with the house design. One piece of advice: assume it will actually cost a lot more than the initial estimates. :eek:

I don't know how much the 21" tubes cost... they were buried in a lot of other stuff. I'm guessing the tubes cost a few $hundred each plus installation... which was probably more. However, I believe it comes out cheaper than a traditional skylight. Given what you're doing, the skylight costs probably don't matter much.

Note I have 3 21" tubes over a 7' x 2' area. Your tank would need at least 8 to get the same illumination. Whether that's bright enough for Acropora I couldn't say... you should probably supplement with VHO or MH. With that many tubes, you might do better with a huge skylight lined with mylar. Talk it over with your contractor or architect.

As for sump & refugium... make them as big as you can fit! Some refugiums are bigger than the main tanks. Just make sure you have a decent size closet to house all the aquarium stuff. Also be careful about placement... my aquarium closet is close enough to the kitchen for my wife to covet the space. :)

Rule of thumb for circulation is 10X the tank volume minimum. Not all of that has to pass through the sump or refugium. My tank has a surge device built in... if you can manage a surge device I highly recommend it.

I don't know how to measure the heat gain. An HVAC contractor might be able to help. If you size the cooling for MH you'll probably have more than you need. I suggest putting in a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan -- it's probably cheaper than a chiller most of the time.

I'll post some more pictures later, after it's better established. I don't think the skylight concept will be proven until it has run for at least a year.

[lead]

Stuart,

What do you think of this idea? I was going to place four 21 tubes over the top of the reef and a couple of 14 or 18 inch tubes across the lagoon area. I want the reef to come only 2 to 3 feet out from the back wall. This would leave a 1 to 2 foot beach or lagoon for the fish to swim around in. I was thinking that some time down the road. I would add a blue dotted sting ray or a marble shark. What type of corals have you placed in your tank? Do you plan on adding any acropora or montipora to your tank? What type of surge device are you using? Do you have any drawing or a place that I buy this device or a list of parts? I sorry for all the questions. I have only been doing this for a year. I am just totally consumed by this hobby. I love designing my tank and seeing what happens. I just finished my Mechanical Engineering Degree and this allows me to use some of those concepts that I learn in school.
Talk to you later, ;)
Ed

[SAT]

Ed,

I think strongly lighting only the areas where corals are present makes sense. However, I suspect your setup would be considered dim for shallow-water Acropora species. Roughly speaking (and without doing any scientific measurements) I equate a 21" tube to a 250W MH lamp during the summer... and 1/2 of that during the winter. Assuming a 10'x3' effective surface area, many people would use about 3000W of MH lighting to achieve "strong MH" intensities.

Acropora and Montipora aren't available for my tank since it's a Caribbean biotype. For the time being I'm limiting myself to available West Florida hard corals (the most interesting I've found is Oculina robusta, which vaguely resembles a staghorn Acropora) and Florida/Caribbean softies. With a little luck I'll find the lighting I have to be adequate... but I may need more supplementation during the winter.

The surge is a 10G Reverse Carlson. You can find a few references by searching for RCSD. The original article was in the Winter 2000 issue of SeaScope.

[Gusto]

Stuart,
Do you have any updated phots of you set up? You should set up a web page on your tank.

Thanks,

[scot]

I also have a question, do the tubes raise the tank temp?

[tlc]

how big do blue dotted rays get? i would think a large animal would surely destroy your aquascaping.

[SAT]

Gusto, there's not much new to show. I don't even have fish in the tank yet (still waiting for the nitrites to disappear. after 14 weeks it's getting old :(). At some point I'll post in the RC photo gallery.

scot, yes I do get some tank heating. I don't know how to quantify it, but I don't think it's bad compared to MH.

[lead]

Hey Stuart,

How are things going? It has been awhile since I last posted. I have been do some more research into sunlight as a supplemental source of light. I have few questions that you might be able to answer for me . Are you using any glass filter to block out the infrared or UV? If so what type of filter and the company that makes the filter so I can add that to my list of things to get for the new home? I was also wondering if you have had more than expect problems with algea than you would get with a new tank? That question might have to waite for a while to be answered completely because of how new your tank is. I was concerned about the amount of red light getting into your tank. All the reading that I have done on the subject says that the amount of red light that enters the tank cause algea to grow more quickly, but I would be interested in finding out if this is true and if you are having more problems with algea than normal.

I have another concern with UV. As corals are placed in higher UV concentrations, they develope too much s320 sun screen and they appear more cream colored on the areas exposed to the sunlight. I was wondering what your thoughts are and how you are going to deal with too much UV. I am still planning on adding the solar tubes to the new home. Is there anything that you would have done different with your current system?
Talk to you later,
Ed :confused:

[SAT]

Ed,

It's going pretty well except I'm getting tired of waiting for the nitrites to disappear (~0.3ppm) so I can feel good about adding more organisms. I'm pretty happy with the light. The main thing I would have done differently is close up the bottom of the tubes immediately after installation. That would have avoiding the tubes being coated with construction dust.

I don't have any UV filters. The light travels through the acrylic dome, reflects down the tubes, through a 2nd acrylic sheet covering the tube bottom, then through a 1/4" ordinary glass tank cover.

I havn't noticed any cream color on the corals. The Oculina and Cladocora have darkened from medium to dark brown and developed a slight metallic green sheen in the center of each polyp. The Briareum is starting to spread but shows no color change. The Pterogorgia polyps changed from white to tan very quickly; otherwise, it looks the same as when I got it six weeks ago (which is very nice).

I have a variety of algae in the tank but nothing out of control. Early on I had a diatom bloom, but that only lasted a week or two even after I started dosing silicate. I had a cyano bloom for about a month. Both diatoms and cyano are still present in small amounts. Hair algae started growing about a month ago but isn't choking anything. I have Bryopsys, Caulerpa, Halimeda, Valonia, red hair algae, and fleshy red algae, all growing slowly. Coralline spread rapidly over the original live rock and is slowly showing up elsewhere.

Note the inorganic phosphate levels are unmeasurably low using a Hach kit (<< 0.05 ppm). I also have a decent selection of herbivores, including astrea, ceriths, fighting conchs, stomatella, limpets, nerites, urchins, and a red Mithrax crab that likes hair algae.

I don't buy the theory that full spectrum light causes algae blooms. If you keep the nutrients down and have a good collection of herbivores, you should be OK regardless of spectrum.

[edfish]

On the UV question, my understanding (from reptile land where many diurnal herps need UV for Vitamin D/Calcium purposes) is that generally glass block UV rays. (you don't tan sitting in light from the window at home)

Hope that helps. I am fascinated by the solotubes idea. Ed

[salt lick]

SAT,
I believe the Acrylic dome on top blocks UV. This is a "feature" so the carpet and drapes dont fade.

I have two 13" SunPipes on my installation

see pics

[salt lick]

internal pic

[SAT]

salt lick,

:thumbsup: A few suggestions. First, the standard diffusers absorb about 1/2 the light. I suggest replacement with a clear acrylic sheet. Second, most of the light will hit the walls of your above-tank compartment rather than going straight down. I suggest either highly reflective paint or lining it with reflective mylar. Finally, it's likely the pair of 13" tubes won't be enough, particularly in winter, so plan on some flavor of supplement.

Good luck!

[cali_reef]

I don't think he will need much supplement lighting, even in the winter month. He lives Tehachapi; he should have more than enough light if he has the dome facing the right direction.

[SAT]

Originally posted by cali_reef
I don't think he will need much supplement lighting, even in the winter month. He lives Tehachapi; he should have more than enough light if he has the dome facing the right direction. The domes are usually installed straight up, which is required for them to be weather proof (I suppose some brands might be different). In June the sun comes almost straight down. In December it's at significant angle, which has two effects. First, the light will be bouncing around the tube a lot more, losing some energy on each bounce. Second, the light comes out the bottom at the same angle it entered, hitting the sides of the cabinet instead of heading into the tank.

A pair of 13" tubes will probably yield about 1/2 the light of one of my 21" tubes (taking into account the smaller area and the increased reflections in a narrower tube). I think a 21" tube is about equal to a 250W MH bulb.

[reefsociety101]

It seems like the tank running the Solatubes is covered in algae. Ae you experiencing rapid growth of algae with the sun tubes?

_Mike

[SAT]

Originally posted by reefsociety101
It seems like the tank running the Solatubes is covered in algae. Ae you experiencing rapid growth of algae with the sun tubes? At the time the tank was still unstable and finishing up a cyano bloom (which was really ugly :p). Yes, I grow a tremendous amount of algae of many different species, but no species predominates (luckily the Bryopsis and Valonia have been well behaved). Mostly the herbivores keep up. Nothing of consequence has been choked by the algae, including my Pterogorgia, which is notorious for that. I do have to pull out a few handfulls of Caulerpa and red & green hair algae clumps on a weekly basis (my snails ignore hair algae on the sand). The front glass needs cleaning about once a week.

BTW, my phosphates and nitrates are unmeasurable (PO4 << 0.05ppm; NO3 << 1ppm). I dose silicate and iron to promote diatoms and macros. I run skimmerless with an ATS. I feed about 1g of "Forumula 2" pellets and 1 oz of DT's daily to keep the cleanup crew & filter feeders happy. No fish yet.

My opinion is light spectrum has much less to do with algae blooms than nutrients and herbivores. I think the old adage about sunlight & algae comes from old books about FO tanks.

[reefsociety101]

Awesome. I will be moving into a house soon and really contemplating solatubes. Would you recommend it personally?

_Mike

[SAT]

I love my tubes. :) However, I don't want to set unrealistic expectations: you will almost certainly need to supplement with other lights, especially during the winter unless you live in the tropics. I think they will pay for themselves eventually in lower energy bills. I think the light they produce has a higher quality spectrum than any artificial lamp. And I really like the look of it.

[lead]

Stuart,

How is the tank coming? Do you have any pictures? I am starting to break ground on my new home and I need to mak a decision about the solar tubs. I was wanting to see some pictures again if possible. I sure would appreciate it. It will help me in making my decision. I am most likely going to do it.
Thanks
Lead

[reefsociety101]

I wish people would post more pictures instead of just claiming that there so great, I have yet to see a tank that is worth while using solatubes. It mostly yellowed watered and algae filled tanks. I hope someone proves me wrong because this will be a great advancement to our hobby.

[reefsociety101]

I been trying to get research on this very topic and havent found much, no pictures or any long term success with harder reef species like SPS, Seems like most people are just growing algae. It seems like the people on this very thread are early adopters and pioneers and deserve a pat on the back for exploring.

I look foward to see an advancement in this area. Just wish I had a house to try it on. *Smile.

Lets keep this thread alive but with more pictures! *Smile.

[lead]

reefsociety101,

There is a guy were in Idaho (believes this are not) that a 3000 gal saltwater pond outside. I wish that I had a digital camera to show you. He has some algae but he has been working on this problem for a while. He has found out so far if he controls his phosate levels and disolved organics material in his water. He has less algae problems. I am currently working with this guy on the algae problem. All the reading that I have done on the subject of algae problem has always come back to three problems. Two of those problems deal with water quality. Algea needs two basic two elements to grow. They need phosate and light. If you control just one of these elements algae can not grow. I believe in order for the solar tubes to work. Your water quality has to be top priority or you will have a large amount of algea growth. Part of my reading has talked about the type of light that algae needs. Algae responds to the red wavelenght mostly. I have a suggestion if someone wants to try it. I would try it myself, but I am 4-6 months from being in my new home. You know how construction goes. Has anyone tried to filter out the red spectrum? What I was thinking is you could get a piece of glass and have it tinted. I know there is tints out there that will limit the amount of red light in. This will probably lower the intensity of the tubes, but it will help in the algae growth. By the way, I placed some sps corals in this pond. They seem to be doing Okay. It has only been a couple of weeks.
Lead

[SAT]

Lead,

Structurally my tank still looks about the same as in the previous photos. The main difference is in the algae growth... no cyano, lots more coralline, more macros of various flavors, and some annoying hair algae (hasn't choked anything). If you're expecting some conclusions about coral growth, I think you'll have to wait another year -- and my tank isn't a good test bed anway if you're interested in Acropora or other very bright light species (can't get Caribbean species and I don't think my light is that bright anyway).

I agree with your comments about algae growth except I don't know if I believe the bit about red light. Everything I've seen about spectral effects on algae seem to be anecdotal. Do you have any references to controlled studies? In any case, I don't know why sunlight would foster algae growth more than the 6500K bulbs that many people use. The average color temperature is about the same.

If you want to filter out the red, I suggest getting a photographic filter of the sort that fits over a lamp and converts "tungsten" to "daylight". B&H sells a 4'x24' roll of Rosco Tungsten Conversion Filter (in various densities) for $106.95. In practice, however, I don't find the light is so bright that I want to lose any of it.

As for yellow water... I think that's a water management issue, not a lighting problem. Blue light may mask yellow water but won't prevent it.

[Agu]

To claim that natural sunlight causes algae growth is correct, but so will artificial light if other parameters are appropriate for algae growth. Sat's pics were of a new tank still cycling so it's not fair to conclude natural light causes algae and yellow water.

I'm currently running an "experimental" tank that sits directly in front of a west facing window. It gets diffused light for half the day and direct sunlight for the other half day with no supplemental lighting. Granted I have several gulf macros in the tank to use nutrients but my nuisance algae growth is no worse/better than artificially lit tanks ie; almost no nuisance algae.

fwiw,

Agu

[reefsociety101]

Lead,

That sounds like an awesome outdoor tank. Try to get some pictures. *Smile. I was also thinking of trying a project like that. I totally agree with you that water quality must be the utmost of quality if we plan to use sunlight as our main light source. The only way I was thinking to actually make a system like that work is to just increase the overall water volume size. If the pond is 3000 gallons we must connect it to a remote water resovior that is atlease twice the size. That way the organism to water volume level is reduced and water quality will be must easier to maintain. I am currently drawing out a system like that for a friend who might try an 2000 gallon indoor pond system connected to a resovior I described. I will keep you posted.

[ejocam]

I can see why this thread has been alive for the time it has. I'm sure in time, as more of us take the risk/plunge into this concept will our own apetites would be filled. But more important would be the information and experience of one, who would document and share with all interested and skepitical hobbyists. Definatley sounds interesting for me. I live in Victorville(High Desert) Electicity can be a big problem, if you plan on keeping or proping sps and light demanding corals. Very glad to catch this Thread. Will be looking into this. Keep Pioneering this valuable and worthy idea.

Eric C.

[ejocam]

I can see why this thread has been alive for the time it has. I'm sure in time, as more of us take the risk/plunge into this concept will our own apetites would be filled. But more important would be the information and experience of one, who would document and share with all interested and skepitical hobbyists. Definatley sounds interesting for me. I live in Victorville(High Desert) where Electicity can be a big problem as well as heat. Very glad to catch this Thread. Will be looking into this. Keep Pioneering this valuable and worthy idea.

Eric C.

[lead]

Sat,

The books that I have at home are Marine Algae control secrets by Bob Goemans, Ph.D. and the new Aquarium Corals by Eric H. Borneman. I have read other books that contain the same information. I would have to go to the local library to get the other titles of books. Sunlight contains the full spectrum of color from cool colors to 20000k and higher. It boils down to the two elements that I talked about earlier (nutrients) phosates and light. Algae has a certain wavelenght or color that it favors just like our corals. Our corals favor light in the 6500k and higher range. This is how we get the different types of corals at different depths in the ocean. Each species of corals require different light and nutrient conditions to grow. If this was not so, I would be growing some of the strawberry cauliflower corals. The ocean water acts as a huge light filter. Ocean water is also low in phosate (read The environmental gradient by Steve Tyree) on the reef. It is only when the two requirements of light and nutrients is met when there is problems with algae growth on the reef. If we place a acropora in a place that meets the nutrient requirements, but does not met the lighting requirement the coral does not do very well or it dies. It`s the same with algae. If your tank has the right conditions (nutrients and light), you get an algae bloom. So if you know the light requirements of algae and you lower the nutrient levels in your tank, you can control the growth of algae. Easier said than done.
:)
Lead

[reefsociety101]

In my 110 gallon tank on the left side, I tend to always get the afternoon sun for about 2 hours, and I have to say that section is the most beautiful section of the tank to look at. The light there is so crisp that the water looks crystal clear and the coraline just looks so natural. The color is so natural, refracting onto the sand looks so much better then the right side which is artificial lit all day. If suntubes can replicate this throughout the entire tank, I have to say guys we are moving to a whole new level of reef keeping. No photograph I have taken can replicate how that afternoon sun light looks.

Just a rant.

_Mike

[AuroraDave]

There is a photo of Michael Fontana's solar-lit tank in Michael Paletta's new book, Ultimate Marine Aquariums on pg 147.

It is a 180 gallon tank with one 250W 6500K Iwasaki MH on the left side; and what he calls a "light chimney" on the right. The entire tank also has 4 supplimental VHO's (2 daylight-2 actinic). The lighting is 12 inches above the water.

The tank was set-up in 1993 and includes 10 stonys and 30 soft corals. The article describes the successes Michael had by comparing the left and right sides. Michael describes the "impressive" growth rates of two specific corals in the article...
Euphyllia ancora (hammer coral) grew from palm-sized to show colony 18" long in one year and
Hydnophora rigida (green horn coral) grew from 50cent piece sized frag into the size of two dinner plates. No time period stated.
Those were the only examples in the article
FYI: I really like this book. It is interesting to see the many different methods these aquarists used to design their systems.

[reefsociety101]

Dave,


Thanx for the heads up. I'll definately check that out.

[Scuba_Dave]

Excellent thread, moving soon & I am hoping to build an addition w/sun tubes, skylights & big windows. Living in NE I expect to have to use additional lighting. I've had a 30g tank in athe front window for about 3 months now. The sun looks great rippling on the bottom.
And since I'm not into Acro's - I think this will work for me. Not having to run full halides in the summer would be great.

[jarvis]

Very intresting thread. Its a diffrent concept. Best of luck to you. I wonder how these things would work in winter when it snows. If you decide to brush off the snow. Snow is probobly one of the greatest reflectors. If you lived in an area that was able to sustain a constant snow covering for the winter months I wonder how it would work.

[lead]

Jarvis,
That is one of the problems that I have benn struggling with also. One of my ideas around the problem is to have the tank and solar tubes on the southside of the house with no trees to block the sun. The reason for the tubes on the southside of the home is to get the maxium amount of sunlight possible. Us that are in the northern parts of the country just simply can not get around that fact that we will need to use the solar tubes as a secondary light source. The sun does not give enough light during the winter months to use as a primary light source, but during the spring, summer, and fall, we can use the sun as the primary lighting source. This will cut our power bill by 40 to 60 percent. This is what I am look at. The fact of cutting my power bill in half means more coral and a larger tank for less operational cost.
Lead

[RhumbRunner]

Comming in pretty late here, but pretty interested too. Can anyone point to some scientific analsys of the light intensity/spectrum of one of these tubes vs. a given MH light? How does it vary over the course of a day vs. the MH instant/on instant/off static output? What lattitude were the measurments taken at and can projections be made for other lattitudes? Finally, how does it vary over the course of a year? Would the manufacturers be able to supply same?

Thanks and later...

[Agu]

Originally posted by RhumbRunner
Comming in pretty late here, but pretty interested too. Can anyone point to some scientific analsys of the light intensity/spectrum of one of these tubes vs. a given MH light? How does it vary over the course of a day vs. the MH instant/on instant/off static output? What lattitude were the measurments taken at and can projections be made for other lattitudes? Finally, how does it vary over the course of a year? Would the manufacturers be able to supply same?

Thanks and later...

Here you go,

http://www.solatube.com/solamaster.htm

hth,

Agu

[RhumbRunner]

Once again, thanks Agu.

Later,

[Gusto]

Any new developments on this project???

[Danables]

I wish i still had my tubes, any new people add tubes to their tanks?

[RedEyeReef]

Just came across this and tagging along.

[reefsociety101]

Still waiting to see some pictures of a solatube tank, that is not covered in algae. Seems so promising.

[KENE]

Along for the ride!!

[RGibson]

440 cudaman-what kind of 3/4 hp pump do you have and what is the flow rate per hour and is it used with a sump ? have a good day RGibson

[SAT]

My tank's is about a year old now. There's plenty of algae... but mostly all coraline or macro varieties that my herbivores won't touch. In the picture you'll see big bunchs of Halimeda (center left), two species of Gracilaria (center right and far right), Caulerpa (center bottom), and a ball of Chaetomorpha (dead center). If I added some tangs I expect most of that would disappear in a hurry. For the record, the Cyano in my old picture is long gone.

Right now, mid-winter, the tubular skylights don't do much... little direct light goes down the tubes. To compensate, I doubled up on the VHO's in September (720W total, over a 300G tank). I expect to take it back down to 360W in March.

My corals (the few that I have) are hanging in there and growing a little. I only started feeding them recently. Most interesting is the Pterogorgia in the lower middle of the picture. It's been doing fine and grew about an inch in the last month or so. Borneman's book says Petrogorgia typically gets choked with algae and doesn't last long... contrary to this experience.

Hope that helps.

[RedEyeReef]

Tagging along

[salt lick]

SAT the tank is looking good.

I spoke to the manufacturer(distributer? cant remember) of the solatubes, and he pointed out that the light gets concentrated around the edges of the pipe (donut) and typically exits at a shallow angle (except noon) so the diffuser helps redirect the light down. I think he is only part correct, the diffuser is not a focusing lense. the best light pipe is not a cylinder but a cone. it can be a shallow cone (almost cylindrical). in the cylinder the light may bounce 6 to 20 times on the way down a 4ft section. the light would only bounce maybe 3 times in a 15degree cone, because each bounce in the cone the light is reflected into ever more parrallel (vertical) direction. I have thought of adding a 45 degree short mylar skirt (6"tall) and a clear flat acrylic lense.

[A Reef Scene]

Is there any data as to the par, wattage equivalent, and coral health and color on a running reef tank?

[Instigator]

Originally posted by salt lick

I spoke to the manufacturer(distributer? cant remember) of the solatubes, and he pointed out that the light gets concentrated around the edges of the pipe (donut) and typically exits at a shallow angle (except noon) so the diffuser helps redirect the light down. I think he is only part correct, the diffuser is not a focusing lense. the best light pipe is not a cylinder but a cone. it can be a shallow cone (almost cylindrical). in the cylinder the light may bounce 6 to 20 times on the way down a 4ft section. the light would only bounce maybe 3 times in a 15degree cone, because each bounce in the cone the light is reflected into ever more parrallel (vertical) direction.


You make a very good point. Here is a diagram:

[grim]

I think the ideal solution would be using a Fresnel lens at the output of the Solatube in order to create a more 'parallel' light output (collimated). Could possibly create some 'hot-spots' so some care is probably required in aiming and focusing the lens properly. You can probably focus a whole lot of light from multiple solatubes into a small area using multiple fresnels as a solar concentrator, and probably get alot more usable light (think many many magnifying glasses), but it would be quite an expensive experiement.

jb

[Instigator]

The lens is something I thought about myself but placing it at the top of the tube instead of the bottom. Like my previous diagram shows, the sun rays are coming in at an angle and leaving at an angle. Is it possible to put some type of lens at the top that would send sunlight more straight down? Furthermore, is there a type of lens that can gather more light at the top and send it down the tube?

[grim]

Fresnel again. The only real catch here is trying to deal with the chromatic abberation a fresnel will generate. Don't know if it would even make a difference in a solar concentrator application.

jb

[lilbuddy]

richard harker uses solar tubes on his 2000g tank..I have pics of his tank in my gallery. He also uses 65k pendants. check out my gallery for the pics. they are on the 2nd page in my gallery but here is a pic to give you an idea...
this is above the tank
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/215921abovemiddle.jpg

[headhawg7]

Well CRAP! Why didn't you guys tell me this before I spent all that money on my HQI DE system and the electricty this thing uses, I could have paid those solatubes off in about a year or less. And possibly get a tax break!

I bet my landlord would freak if she saw something like that on the roof of my duplex. That would be tough to explain.

[lead]

lilbuddy,
Could you send me the link to your gallery.
lead

[photobarry]

Just press the "gallery" icon above his post. (It's the thing that looks like a camera.)

[SaltwaterNovice]

LilBuddy:

Are you sure Richard Harker is using Solatubes on the 2000 gallon tank?

I read his original article and I am pretty sure that he was using skylights with pendants hanging in between the skylights.

Do you have a link to a website about his tank. I haven't been able to get any additional information about that tank, excluding the recent article in the on-line reef magazine, but sure would like to.

Thanks,

Brian

[Instigator]

SaltwaterNovice, I suspected the same thing. In fact, you can see the skylight reflections in some of those pics, including a bright spot (possible pendant MH). It just doesn't look like a solartube setup to me either.

[getwet]

Wow...long post. I thought about this a very long time ago when I first saw these things...1984? Sometime in the 80's anyway. Needless to say, I'm very happy other people have laid a foundation for me to follow :)

A couple of comments (plus it tags me along too). First, there is virtually no red light in seawater. It gets very rapidly filtered. The yellow wavelengths are used by plants, although the exact wavelengths depend on the species and phyla (I think it's phyla that denotes red, green, and brown). Anyway, that is why you don't find grass bed communities at very deep depths, no yellow light. As for corals, many species are exposed at low tides, so perhaps a small dosing of high intensity red is good for them or even needed.

Finally, I do remember attending a talk, where someone (I think from Scripps) talked about some corals that were taken from Hawaii and placed in a rooftop container at Scripps in San Diego only to die off under direct sunlight, at what would seem like similar conditions (ie latitude etc). It turned out the problem was the light wasn't intense enough on the rooftop in San Diego vs the reef in Hawaii. I know these tubular skylights are likely better as they focus the light to a degree, but it is not surprising supplemental light may be needed for some corals.

Now...the question.... the quality of these lights is a little more important to the people on this board over the "typical user". Anyone try the e-bay tubular skylights by solar enterprises?

[dvups1]

Well, I have been following this thread for a while now and think I'l jump in. My 240 (96'24x24) is now sitting in my garage and the local Solatube contractor gave me a bid of $350 per 21" tube. So I guess I am going to go for it. I'll keep ya'll posted. Wish me luck.

[RedEyeReef]

Keep us posted. How is the relation of the tank and your roof? Meaning, is your house a rancher or is the tank located up stairs? I think I am SOL for Solar tubes, my 360 is in my basement.

[dvups1]

I'll have 8' of tube between the roof and the tank top.

[salty joe]

I recently contacted Anthony Calfo. He told me to make sure there is NOT a UV filter on the sun tube system.

[DgenR8]

Anthony Calfo is speaking at my reef club's meeting tomorrow. I'll be sure to ask him about them, as it's something I've been thinking about.

[salty joe]

When I install light tubes, I plan to find a way to make the last couple feet of tube over the tank removable for maintenance. This way, I can bring the tube to within a few inches of the water. Keep all that light in the tank.

[delnino]

Wow, I just read this entire thread, like reading a short book. I have ordered a few sun tubes for my house and one will be used for a reptile enclosure( 4 Somalian Uromastyx lizards). I also want to use a 21" tube to light a small seagrass bed in my kitchen. I spoke with Calfo at a reef club meeting here in Denver a few months ago. He said success can be achieved but the uv blockage of the roof top dome is critical. Apparently, low 80's is an ideal percentage of uv blockage. All domes I have seen tout 95% or greater. I was thinking of having one custom made. Anybody have ideas about what material should be used and how to get it manufactured?

[salty joe]

A few days ago, I asked Calfo about using a sun tube on his forum. He reccomended using a sun tube with no UV filter.

[dvups1]

Well according to my local Solatube dealer there in on way to remove the UV block from the dome. It blocks almost all UV and I think that just won't work. I contacted Sun Tube today and they assured me that for an extra $100 they could provide a dome for their 13" tube that did not block any UV. They claim that Solatubes materials are not UV stable and that is why Solatube has to have the UV dome. Sun Tube apparently dosen't have that problem so they are now my choice supplier.

Question? How much UV does a reef aquarium filter? The way my plans are laid out, my tank will be directly behind my dark brown leather ofa. Does anyone know if I am going to get considerable sun damage/ wear on the tops of the sofa?

[DennisRB]

This thread rocks!

How dear is mirrored acrylic. What about having a rectangular hole in your ceiling a bit smaller than the size of your tank and covering the insides with mirrored acrylic? Having the hole a bit smaller would add the coned effect. Surely this would create the most possible light for your coral as the light collection area would be much bigger than solar tubes. Depending on the roof design it could be difficult to make in an existing house though. It would be very easy in my house. Shame about the tall buildings and trees that create shade on my roof.

[getwet]

Actually, there is a company patenting a square sun tube...for lack of a better term. I don't recall the name of the company and they didn't have it for sale yet, but they used a pyramidal shaped mirrors with a square skylight (like a obelisk with the top cut off for the skylight) . Creates sharper angles vs. the shallow angles created by the tubes.

I figured one of those could be built around the bottom of a standard sun tube, to better contain and focus light. It's in the plans.

[Instigator]

Originally posted by DennisRB

How dear is mirrored acrylic. What about having a rectangular hole in your ceiling a bit smaller than the size of your tank and covering the insides with mirrored acrylic? Having the hole a bit smaller would add the coned effect. Surely this would create the most possible light for your coral as the light collection area would be much bigger than solar tubes. Depending on the roof design it could be difficult to make in an existing house though. It would be very easy in my house. Shame about the tall buildings and trees that create shade on my roof.

Nice idea! But...

Does acryllic filter/absorb UV?
Would direct sunlight warp or discolor acrylic? What is the wear potential of this material.

I would go with the thinnest acryllic sheets possible. The shape would also help maximize the space between raffters or studs. I would go with a more straight design and put a cone shape near the bottom though. Because you would be using flat mirrors I would suggest some type of diffuser lens either at the top or bottom of the tube to prevent the "hot spot" from driectly moving accross the tank (unless you want that effect).

[BLUESMAN]

I read the entire thread......a lot of great info here! Here's my question......I have a patio that will be enclosed. The roof is flat and about 9' high. I live in sunny Arizona, so daily sunligt is not a problem even in the winter. I have no trees or other shading devices over/near the patio. Should I install a couple 21" solatubes or a larger skylight panel? The roof rafters are spaced out at 24" o.c. and has no insulation(open ceiling). Also if I do install the "tubes" should they extend as close to the tank top as possible? I'll be growing out sps's in one or two of these tanks. At present time I'm running 250/400w MH's and VHO's (about 2500 watts total over the two tanks). I was planning on installing a simple AC window unit to ensure temperature. Thanks!
Blue

[SAT]

Blue,

I like my tubes. It sounds like it wouldn't be too hard for you to install. However, don't expect them to be a replacement for your main lighting. I think during the summer (April through August) a 21" tube is approximately equal to a 250W MH bulb. In December, even in Arizona, it's probably equal to a 40W NO fluorescent lamp (the angle of the sun is what matters, not the brightness).

If you do install it, yes you should push the output down as close to the water as you can manage.

[clkwrk]

Has any one cut one of these tubes up and used them as reflectors for their moguls? I was thinking I could get 4 reflectors out of one tube. I seen some at home depot and the were very reflective.

[techdef]

Originally posted by SAT

I would consider filtering if (a) I thought I had more than enough light to begin with and (b) the filters weren't so bloody expensive.

sorry if this has already been covered. I'm still a ways from finishing this thread, but you can use Rosco theatrical filters which come in 20*30" sheets at around $10 each. THey've got a kelvin calculator that'll tell you what filter combo to use, going from 6000 to 10000K would use a sheet of 3204 half-blue. I've used these to good effect when my 10K bulbs burned out & had to run 3200K for a few weeks during a re-order.

-jamie

[RGibson]

techdef-were can you buy Rosco theatrical filters? RGibson

[BLUESMAN]

Originally posted by clkwrk
Has any one cut one of these tubes up and used them as reflectors for their moguls? I was thinking I could get 4 reflectors out of one tube. I seen some at home depot and the were very reflective.
Yeah that's what I use...very reflective and you can get four reflectors out of one tube. I believe the tubes are $36/42 at HD/Lowes.
Blue

[clkwrk]

Thx Blue how do they compare to other reflectors you have used?Not counting the spider reflector

[techdef]

RGibson, most any theatrical supply company. If you look under theatrical / theater supply in your phonebook there will hopefully be something. Otherwise their website is: http://www.rosco.com/

If you call or email them they'll send you the Kelvin Calculator excel spreadsheet so that you could get your exact needs taken care of. You can also look up on the website the specs for any gel (what they're called) so you could see for example that a single sheet of 3204 would block 52% of the light...

-jamie

[RGibson]

Thank you. RGibson

[gatohoser]

The guy just disappeared off the face of the earth and i went thru 10 pages just reading to see the pics! lol. TAG

[gatohoser]

come on updates needed

[electric130]

Originally posted by SAT
Blue,

I like my tubes.... thread started 2 years ago, now 10 pages, so many people say they're using these, but still no pics????? come on! lets see some pics. i went through every page and some people made posts saying "here's the right side" and stuff like that, but there's no pics there. what's up?

[gatohoser]

YES PLZ POST SOME PICS!

[clkwrk]

Blue was commenting on using the tubes as reflectors for mh's.
I too now use them for reflectors .I got 4 reflectors out of one tube.All I can say is wow they really kick up the light output.

[electric130]

reflectors or sunlight, lets see some pics!!!

[MikeG]

Let's bring this one back!

Any new pics guys? I am also in the process of building, and of course, upgrading my tank. I am interested in the solatubes to supplement my HQIs. Any more help would be appreciated!

Thanks,

[wazbot]

Hi Guys,

I am Building a 10x2.5x2.5 this year and am going to be using solatubes for my main lighting.

Everyone wants pictures...So here is a link to a guy on the East Coast (of Australia!) that has used them.

:rollface:

http://home.iprimus.com.au/jmfaz/index.htm

http://home.iprimus.com.au/aurorabridal/Doc1.htm

http://home.iprimus.com.au/aurorabridal/massa.htm

and the thread with info

http://www.masa.asn.au/rtaw/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=General&Number=70579&Forum=All_Forums&Words=solatube&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=64961&Search=true#Post70579

Enjoy.

[MikeG]

Thanks for the links Wazbot. Is the box under the tubs some sort of diffuser, or simply used to hang the supplimental actinics?