Pickling lime

[nellie54914]

I was reading through a bunch of posts today trying to find a good DIY kalk doser and came across some threads about using pickling lime instead of kalk. I was just wondering if anyone in the club has tried that, and if you noticed any differences between that and kalkwasser. It seems like a good $ savings if it actually works, but I'm a bit leary of trying it!

~michelle

[HaKs310]

Pickling lime and kalkwasser are the same thing. It is called pickling lime at supermarkets and kalkwasser at aquarium hobby stores.

[z28cam]

Pickling lime is hard to find I usually look at the grocery stores everytime I go. So if your looking good luck :). But I think its easier to find during canning season.

[FEEDERFISH]

I use it, try a search on Yahoo for Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime, I bought 5 huge cans of it for 10$ I think It was shipped for 2$ more, it works great

[aberg12012]

I get mine from Festival Foods in Oshkosh. Just picked up 5 bags this winter. I was suprised to see it on the shelves in the winter.

Kalkwasser is simply German for lime. Pet stores and manufacturers such as Kent, capitolize on this, and sell the same thing in tiny containers for much more. Some people feel it's an issue of pickling lime not being as pure as the lime sold in pet stores. Truth is, it's all food grade...

[FlipFlops24/7]

So next big question would be:

Where in the Fox Valley can we find it? I've looked at quite a few supermarkets with no luck. I guess I can just order it online

[aberg12012]

Well, good question. Since I've never looked any where but Festival. I've only had to buy it twice, and from what you guys are saying, I was lucky to find it both times.

I would assume late this summer Festival will stock it.

[ReeferAl]

I order it by the case (12 bags/jars) from :
http://store.yahoo.com/mrswages/mrswagpiclim.html
You can also buy them singly there.
Allen

[ReeferAl]

Wow! I just checked the website. They have doubled the price. The last time I bought from Mrs Wages about a year ago it was under $2 a pound. Now they are charging $3.85. I heard Ball's has quit making pickling lime. Maybe the lack of competition has driven up the price.
Allen

[nellie54914]

I'm convinced, much cheaper to go this route! My husband doesn't like the idea, maybe I'll just have to buy the pickling lime and put it into the kalk container! :)

[aberg12012]

Still... 4 bucks a bag. Nothing compared to buying "kalkwaser" from a pet store for 10 bucks for a tiny little petri dish size container! Stop complaining. :D

[aberg12012]

Originally posted by nellie54914
I'm convinced, much cheaper to go this route! My husband doesn't like the idea, maybe I'll just have to buy the pickling lime and put it into the kalk container! :)

What dosn't your hubby understand? "Kalkwaser" is GERMAN for PICKLING LIME! :D Pickling lime is food grade, same as "Kalk" only sold for much less as it's not marketed for "aqurium use."

:)

[nellie54914]

maybe i'll just have to add on to the label..."For pickling and marine use" :)

[aberg12012]

Perfect. :p

[nellie54914]

ok, so I made the doser, made up a batch of kalk last night (the expensive stuff, we had already bought a container before I had seen anything about pickling lime), and I'm going to sart dripping it in tonight. My question is, I know it has to sit for stuff to settle, can I make up a separate container and pour that into the doser for the next batch? If I let that sit in another container, and then pour it into the doser, will I have to let it sit again since the stuff settled to the bottom would get stirred up when i transfer it to the doser? Or doesn't that matter as long as most of the stuff that settled to the bottom stays in the original container when I pour it? Just want to make sure I'm doing it right!

[aberg12012]

Exactly what I do. Use a siphon hose and stop siphoning once you get close to the bottom. Then you can drip it right away, as long as the dosing container dosn't have any sediment on the bottom, which would get stirred up. If thats the case, I usually wait about 8 hours and it's fine.

[nellie54914]

That makes sense. So does the calcium level affect fish? Can it hurt them if it's raised too fast? What do you guys keep yours at?

[aberg12012]

Calcium levels aren't nearly as big of a concern if all you have is fish. High calcium and alkalinity levels are needed for many corals, as they use both to build their inner structure. I'm sure you've seen a skeleton of a dead acropora or other sps coral. That nice white structure is made mostly of calcium and KH (alkalinity.)

As for adding a bunch of an additive at a time. It's not recommended at all. Assuming your talking about a calcium or KH additive other than lime water - additions should be made in smaller doses more frequently rather than in one big dose all at once. Especially with KH buffers, as they have a huge impact on PH.

Although I don't fully understand it, the easy explanation is that calcium and KH are a delicate balance with eachother. One affects the other. This is where the 2 part additives and lime water come in. They are "ionically" ballanced. Add equal parts of a 2 part additive to raise both equally. If your system is out of balance you can add more of one than the other. But in most cases, what's really needed is to add equal parts of both to bring them back into balance. And obviously with lime water you just drip it, and adjust the balance with either a 2 part or other sperate additives. But unless things are severely out of wack, I would say just keep driping the kalk, try to replace 100% of evaporation with it initially untill the levels come up to where they should be, and most likely they will balance eachother out. Otherwise it'll be a calcium/alkalinity roller coaster ride.

After the levels come up to where you want them you can probably back off the lime water solution. I personally like to keep the lime water saturated, and just drip less of it, as I also use an auto top off system. But you can also lessen the saturation of the lime water and continue replacing 100% of evaporation with the less concentrated solution. Either way accomplishes the same thing.

For those with heavily sps dominated tanks, even saturated lime water won't keep up with calcium consumption. This is were reactors come in. They use CO2 to lower PH in a reaction chamber that is filled with crushed coral. The crushed coral disolves in the low PH, releasing calcium, KH, and many other trace elements.

Most of us strive for calcium around 450 and KH of at least 10dkh. Give or take. If you have no hard corals you can get by with lower calcium levels. For those with SPS dominated tanks, 450 is probably the lowest they want to go(?)

If you feel your calcium is low, probably best not to go add a bunch of just a calcium additive. Drip the lime water, and give it a week or two. It'll bring up your calcium and KH in balance to where you want them.

[Hella]

When using the pickeling lime, how much do you add to a Gal. of water?

[cmcgehee01]

3 tsps. per gallon.

[FlipFlops24/7]

Originally posted by cmcgehee01
3 tsps. per gallon.

I think it more depends on your tanks capacity, and your drip rate (if you are dripping the kalk). I have a 29 gallon and if I used 3 tsps/gal my PH would jump past 8.4 in a few hours!

[ReeferAl]

Originally posted by Debaser
I think it more depends on your tanks capacity, and your drip rate (if you are dripping the kalk). I have a 29 gallon and if I used 3 tsps/gal my PH would jump past 8.4 in a few hours!
That is if you don't want saturated kalk. The question I have had is, how much does it take to saturate the water? Anything beyond that amount of kalk is wasted (if you discard the solids after each batch).
Allen

[aberg12012]

It all depends on what you want to do, and how much your tank uses through calcification in corals. You can either saturate the solution (add more than 2 tsps per gallon) and even oversaturate it by adding vinigar. Any extra above the saturation level just settles to the bottom, and resaturates when you add fresh water. Then you can adjust by only replacing, say 50% of your reef's evaporation with it, and using an auto top off system as well. This is what I do. The other option is like Debaser said. Figure out how much less lime you need below the saturation to just keep up with your reef's demands.

[aberg12012]

Allen...

Is there any particular reason you discard the sediment? It's actually benificial, as it can be re-disolved. And it also has properties that are believed to precipitate phosphates and other undesireables from your top off water. This, according to Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley. He's got a TON of info on dripping lime water, and I would highly suggest browsing his topics. It will answer alot of these questions with out having to listen to a moron like me try to babble about something I only pretend to know anything about! :D

[FlipFlops24/7]

by sediments, do you mean the nasty leftover stuff in the bottom of my kalk dripping bottle? So I shouldnt dump that crap out?

[ReeferAl]

Originally posted by aberg12012
Is there any particular reason you discard the sediment?

I never said I DID discard the sediment. I don't even mix it that way. I dump a whole pound into my 50 gal barrel and keep remixing it with each new batch of water until it will not produce limewater with conductivity over about 8 (about 80% saturated).
I was responding to debaser's way of dosing, and raising the question of how much lime it takes to produce a gal of saturated limewater. He said if he added 3 tsp per gallon it would be too much. If 2 tsp will saturate the water (although I don't believe it will- not with Mrs Wage's anyway) and you mix yours a batch at a time then adding 3tsp will not produce limewater any stronger than adding 2 tsp and it will leave alot of wasted lime solids on the bottom.
So, how much lime DOES it take to saturate limewater? I added 3 level tsp (6.6g) of Mrs Wage's to a gal of RO water and it still didn't quite saturate the water, although it left alot of undissolved solids behind.
Allen

[aberg12012]

Here's some articles to get some better answers, by Dr. Holmes-Farley. There are alot of myths I think he clears up quite well. And I'm pretty sure he states some were in his articles that 2tsp of lime in a gallon of water is saturated. Anything more settles out as undisolved solids. But I couldn't find where he states the actual saturation point just looking through them quick. It's all good reading though.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

Metals in Limewater:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm

Relationship of Calcium/Alk:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

Solving calcium/alk problems:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

[aberg12012]

Here's the one I really was looking for... This should also answer a lot of questions.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

And another on the relationship of Calcium/Alk
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

[ReeferAl]

aberg,
I read all those articles when they came out and reviewed several of them recently. None of them answered my specific question, or if they did I could not find the information on skimming the articles.
It doesn't seem like a difficult question-"how much lime/kalk does it take to saturate the water?"
I am planning on picking up a small container of Kent's kw mix and doing some testing of it and Mrs Wage's to see how much it takes.
Allen

[aberg12012]

Allen,

I too am having the same problem. I have been scanning them and found nothing as to that question either. I've been wondering the same, as he (Dr. Homels-Farley) had once told me in a thread but I'm not for sure what the answer was. I'm fairly certain it was 2 tsp per gallon of pure water at room temp, but cannot verify that. I'll see if I can go back and find a thread he posted the answer in.

[ReeferAl]

I did a little experiment myself and found that it takes about 7g of kalk powder to make 1 saturated gal of limewater. That is about 2.8 level teaspoons. Level tsp are alot more reproducible than heaping. I would guess though that 2 heaping tsp would be about right.
Allen

[nellie54914]

So is that with the regular "marine" kalkwasser or with the Mrs. Wages pickling lime? Is one more concentrated than the other?

[aberg12012]

They should all be the same thing... hydrated lime.

[ReeferAl]

Originally posted by nellie54914
So is that with the regular "marine" kalkwasser or with the Mrs. Wages pickling lime? Is one more concentrated than the other?
There was another discussion about pickling lime (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4830916#post4830916) where I posted a comparison of Kent's kalkwasser and Mrs Wage's pickling lime. It would be possible that they could be considerably different due to differences in purity. I found however that they are in fact identical in strength with only some very minor differences apparent.
Allen

[nellie54914]

reviving an old thread...

In case anybody is interested, I saw pickling lime at Woodmans when I was there last week. I think it was $2.29 for the 16oz container, not positive about that. But it was there!

[ReeferAl]

I recently bought lime at Fleet Farm in 2 lb bags at about half the price of pickling lime. The bags were called "garden lime" and ingredients were labeled as calcium hydroxide. I suspect it is no longer available this year though as FF was putting away all their garden supplies.

[ReeferAl]

Today I was at the Plant Station nursery on Northland Ave in Appleton. They have the same hydrated lime as Fleet Farm, but in 7lb bags for $10.99. That's $1.57 per lb. I bought 2 bags but they still had about 6 bags left.
Allen

[aberg12012]

wow... thats a good deal. Thanks Al for the info.

[nellie54914]

Reviving an old thread yet again, it's that time of year!! :)

I was at WalMart in Appleton (West side) yesterday and saw 1 lb canisters of Mrs. Wage's pickling lime on clearance for $1.00. There weren't a ton of them, probably about a dozen. They were by the canning stuff, near the small appliances (not in the grocery area). If it's on clearance there maybe it's on clearance at other locations as well. Just thought I'd post about it in case anybody needs some. :)

[aberg12012]

Speaking of which... I have some if anyone needs it. Included free with purchase of my entire system. lol If anyone needs some, let me know. I think I have 2 7lb bags and one sealed 1lb Mrs. Wage's container. The 7 lb bags are the stuff that Dr. Allen mentioned finding at a garden shop, it's packaged for garden use, but still the same stuff. (Just not in nice little 1 lb containers.)

[RCS]

I actually grabbed two containers of the lime a couple of days ago at Wal-Mart as well...no use for it right now, but it will come in handy.