Hyposalinity for 3 weeks and Ich is back

[guyguerra]

Iv'e been doing hyposalinity for almost 3 weeks at 11ppt. Ich showed up on a Tang again 3 days ago, now two butterfly fish also have it. This is my first time doing this, but clearly, it is not working. I'm getting very frustrated and do not know if I should leave the fish in the tank or pull them out and do the transfer method (which will be a lot of work). Mine is not regular Ich, it's super Ich.......

[Randall_James]

You do not say a thing about your QT.

I use an bare 10G tank with some plastic condos for the fish to hide in. Every morning I kill the pumps, vacuum the bottom of the tank, evict the fish from the condo and clean it also.
I keep the tank at 1.009 (refractometer) and 82 degrees PH8.3 and do 25% water change each day. (mostly replace what was vacuumed out in the morning.
http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10002/normal_qt%7E0.jpg

[guyguerra]

My setup is not a sterile as your. I have a 120 gallon tank with sand bottom and have some rock in the tank. You can see pictures in my gallery, but the pipe has been replaced with rock. My salinity was closer to 13 ppt, now it is exactly at 11 ppt. I was loosing fish due to undetermined causes and Ich showed up again after three weeks, so I felt that giving some natural environment might reduce there stress and help their immune defenses. I'm not sure if this is helping the tomonts to continue their cycle. It is helping the fish by giving them an environment that is more comfortable. I tried using a 5 gallon bucket with the worst fish, a hippo tang, but he died in a day. I am dealing with four butterflys and 2 clowns. I have a 50 gallon tank that is ready to go, but I'm afraid that moving them to a smaller setup will also have potential problems. I wonder if I have a strain that is resistant to lower salinity.My last hope is that when the ich falls off this time, the cycle will stop. Some of the fish show no signs of ich, but I assume if one has it, then all have it. Is this correct? Can the sand and rock be causing a problem? It seems that low salinity is low salinity, and the rock shouldn't matter. Would you move the fish that show signs and leave the others. Regardless, it's in the tank and needs to be dealt with. Help?

[Randall_James]

I am sure that the sand bottom must go.

[guyguerra]

Randall, what effect do you think the sand is having and how can it help the tomonts to develop? I understand the tomonts will attach to anything, and the sand is still in the low salinity, so why would it help the ich cycle? I appreciate your opinion and advice. Guy

[guyguerra]

Guy, I have not pulled anything out of the tank so its loaded with rock and about 2 inches of sand. The ich dropped off a couple of days after hitting 10ppt and hasnt come back since. Granted I had two mysterious deaths afterwards which i do not believe were ich related. The tank is fairly new and i was dumb not to quarantine anything, hence my problems.

This is a quote from another thread from a giy that was succseful using hypo in his display tank. I am hoping I will have the same results. Do you fell this was luck?

[Randall_James]

Hypo in your display will kill your LR. Thinking about it, I suppose you could pull your live rock, put it in the qt tank with normal tank water then put the display into hypo. (This is provided you have never had a copper treatment in qt tank)

I would however siphon the sand out also. I believe that you need to be able to vacuum the bottom of that tank every morning. I know it is not the most pleasing look (bare tank) but you need to eliminate this pest from your system.

I to have seen plenty of posts about cures by using ginger and garlic. The biggest problem to any of these is that they do not know if it was even ich they were working on in the first place.

The problem with quote you have is that ich is going to fall off the fish within a few days no matter what the salinity is. It is just a question of "when" you noticed the problem in the first place.

I tend to go along with the tried and true advice of the pros. A guy dumping ginger or garlic in his home science experiment salt tank just does not instill much confidence in their methods.

They then jump on and post about these "Miracle" cures with methodology that frankly is no better than waving a wand over the tank. Luck I am sure is a big part of the program and I am sure the truth be known, these same guys often have a return of the problem or loose fish anyway.

I think the main moral to this is to qt all livestock.

[guyguerra]

The rock I put in was dead already, dried out and washed off (due to it being used in a copper treated tank). I agree about the garlic. If hyposalinity stops the life cycle of ich, there should be no need to vacuum the tank daily, though I agree it would be one more defense against the parasites propagation. What you describe sounds like using two methods, hypo and the transfer method (moving a fish to a different tank every three days 9, as your cleaning your tank out so often. Are you saying that hyposalinity by itself is only a partial treatment and that tomonts will still live thru it and therefore need to be vacuumed out daily? I vacuum the sand every three or four days along with water changes. I believe with the stress the fish have been thru, that moving them now will be worse. To me, hypo is hypo, and if it's effective, it should stop the parasites cycle whether it's attached itself to glass or sand or rock. Why would this not be true? You can bet that I'll never put a fish in my display again without QT for six weeks after this mess.

[Randall_James]

Yes it is just one more move towards keeping the parasite out. I would think that keeping the sand cleaned is tougher than keeping a bb clean. I am not sure if pockets of higher salinity could exist in the sand itself or not.
My only concern is that you had your tank in hypo for 3 weeks and the parasite came back. This would lead me to think that they found a safe place somewhere. That answer needs to come from someone with a lot more knowledge about this than I have.

[diverdan814]

I now use hypo for 8 wks.

[guyguerra]

Diverdan, how long does it take for you to eliminate the parasite. I agree with randall, something I'm doing might be causing a problem. On the other hand, there are strains of Ich that can withstand lower salinities now. I can't tell which situation I have.

[mike89t]

I used hypo at 1.009 for about 6 weeks. Haven't seen Ich return and it's been about 1 month now. 3 Weeks isn't long enough.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

Hyposalinity should be maintained for at least 4 weeks but 6 weeks is preferable. If there is any reinfection of the "Ich" during the treatment, the treatment should be extended to at least 4 weeks after the disappearance of the last cyst.

[diverdan814]

guyguerra- I just read that in a study (cannot recall where but on this forum) claimed that a ich lasted for 6 weeks in a tank.

I have had success with 4 and 6 week periods- but also had failures. I am now watching a tank that went 8 weeks in hypo (8 weeks from the time I observed the last spot on a fish) and all seems well.

[Randall_James]

Speaks volumes for quarantine doesnt it

[29GallonReefer]

Why not go with RId-Ich. Found at a lot of LFS. We use in our shop daily whenever any fish has ich. DOse for 7 days and most of the time the fish are just fine. Ich is a very cureable disease. Just need to pick up on it fast.

[guyguerra]

I am now at 5 1/2 weeks of hyposalinity treatment at 11ppt. I was on vacation last week and had my son maintain the tank, which he did a good job at. I got back two days ago, and the salinity was perfectly held at 11ppt. The two fish that showed ich still have it, and it is worse. The fish are still acting very healthy. It seems that the hypo is having little affect on the tomonts. I will continue on to the 8 week point, but I am not optimistic about the outcome. It seems that at the 8 week point I'll have to increase the salinity, and I'm concerned that the ich will get worse. On the other hand, the fish are living with it, so I wonder if I'll always have it, and the fish will continue to live with it.

[leebca]

Guy,

Well, you have me stumped. The only thing I know of to do at this point is get ready for a proper copper treatment.

You had an unusual introduction into combating this disease, if I remember correctly. You began with a copper treatment but didn't control the copper content. Then you got into the hyposalinity.

Hyposalinity does treat Marine Ich, but it isn't 'perfect.' It is so rare to not succeed that I don't worry about it. Is there any doubt that it is in fact MI? Have you posted photos of it?

I would be prepared to do a copper treatment. Get the medication of your choice and the copper test kit. Right after you raise the salinity (over a long time period), add the copper.

I'm sorry I didn't see your original post of early this month.

[guyguerra]

Hi Lee. I wonder if the bad start with the copper gave the parasite a better foothold in the system and some immunity to lower salinity. I was keeping the SG at 1.018 at the recommendation of my LFS. Looking back I wonder if the 2 months at this sg helped the parasite become accustomed to lower salinity. I am confident it's ich, and the owner of the LFS came to my house and verified it for me. I am preparing to start a Cupramine treatment and will know how to do it properly this time. Hope all is well with you, Guy

[leebca]

I thought you were going to ask that question.

I thought about it. I've known several people who did not successfully treat MI with copper and switched to hypo with success. So I don't think the pattern you had is unusual insofar as going from copper to hypo.

I hope that was a typo. Did you mean 1.008 or do you mean 1.018?

Microbe genetic variances don't quite happen like the concept of 'growing accustomed to' would imply. Amongst the MI organisms you had, one (or more) would have had to genetically preferred or could live at the low salinity when it was created. Natural selection would have favored that organism strain in the low salinity and it would continue to live and reproduce, making more microbes with the same genetic proclivities.

Like insects, microbes reproduce in very large numbers. Nature throws in a variance now and then (a random probability based upon the strength of that trait's genetic code) of a suppressed trait. In this way, nature allows the oddball offspring a chance to survive if the environment favors the trait that has shown up.

Like a black tree moth. Every 10,000 of them, one is white. On the black bark, the black moths are camouflaged from their bird predators. The white one gets eaten pretty fast! But a fungus breaks out on the trees one season and turns the bark white. Now the black ones stand out and the white ones are camouflaged. The white survives to go on to make more white ones to match the new environment. Nature no longer 'favors' the black ones, but that genetic trait is still standing by should the tree bark go back to black. :rollface:

Your copper treatment in a tank with sand will be challenging. Remember to monitor the copper content closely and keep it in the right range. There will be a loss of copper to the substrate/sand, and you should consider not using that sand again, after the treatment is over.

Obviously not all is well with you. :( But I believe it will get better. I am fine.

Regards,

[guyguerra]

The 1.018 that I mentioned was the sg that I was keeping in the tank prior to the Ich breakout. I wouldn't do this again, but that's what the LFS said was best to keep the tank at.

I still haven't decided to add copper yet, but it seems like I should. Since I thought that hyposalinity would work without other efforts, I only did water changes to reduce nitrates. Now I realize that more is needed. I am going to do large water changes and sand vacuuming every three days. I'll also replace the dead rock (I'm keeping 4 pieces in the tank and 1 plastic plant) every three days. This seems like it has to reduce the number of tomonts. It still seems like the parasite is partially resistant to low salinity and that at best I'll keep up with it, but will not eliminate it.
You mentioned raising the salinity before starting copper, yet Seachem says it's safe to keep the salinity low while treating with Cupramine.
The sand and dead rock that I'm using went thru the 1st copper treatment and will be tossed when finished (rock will be used in the qt). My 225 gallon tank will be here in 5 or 6 weeks and I want to make sure these fish are completely rid of the parasite before introducing them in the new tank.

[leebca]

It is always best to follow the medication manufacturer's advice. If theirs can be used in low salinity, then they should know. It's not uncommon for medications to have an abnormal affect when the water is at abnormal conditions.

Your specific gravity of 1.018 is clear now. Did your LFS give a reason for that advice?

You've never vacuumed before? This suggestion was given some time back, I thought. It's usually a good idea to vacuum right after you don't see the white spots. Then you know the trophonts dropped off. Vacuuming then might pick up trophonts entering their next stage or even released tomites. But at this point in time, from your description of the infestation, I would wonder if it would make any difference.

[Randall_James]

I have heard this 1.018 from lfs before myself.
"Parasites are less likely to survive and we have fewer problems when we keep our salinity lower"

My regular lfs keeps their tanks at 1.017. I am not sure if it is that or not, but I have never had a problem with their livestock.

I am more apt to believe that they just take better care of the water system myself and/or their suppliers are of good quality. (knocking on wood) The tanks get serviced daily by the small army of teenagers they have working in the store at any given time.

[guyguerra]

"Parasites are less likely to survive and we have fewer problems when we keep our salinity lower"

This is what my LFS told me also. Randall, is that the salinity you keep your tanks? Most advice I've seen on this site recommends keeping it at a more natural level, which is probably what I'll do once this is done.

Lee, on vacuuming, I do it each time I do a water change, which was once every 10 days or so. Now I intend to do it every three days to hopefully pull some of the tomonts out. I also wonder if the tank is too infested and that it's just too late to continue treatment in this tank. My 50 gallon QT is fully cycled and ready for fish, but I'm afraid that the additional stress of moving them might cause more harm. I also don't know if the 50 gallon can take the instant bio load of all these fish at once. Seems like a crap shoot (sorry, I just got back from Las Vegas) either way, so I'll continue treatment in this tank for another week and see if things improve.

[Randall_James]

I keep my tank at 1.027,

Do not move fish to the clean tank under any circumstance until you are sure they are clean and healthy. Last thing you need is to contaminate the display again.

I vacuumed my tank every morning. The expense is minimal due to the 1.09 salinity. (just at time issue) It also removes excess food, poop and hopefully parasites.

Also keeping the water fresh every day like that keeps the parameters in check. Nitrates are always a problem for me in my qt and I am guessing it is just the lack of LR and other biofiltering.

I have run the 3 day treatment regimen of "rid ich" as I drop my salinity. The fish do not like this stuff for what ever reason but they tolerate it. It requires 3 successive days of treatment at the same strength. Does it work? Not sure but my fish cleared up.

[leebca]

Guy,

I think I'm getting a better picture. You've run your aquarium at a lower-than-normal salinity. When Marine Ich invaded, that MI was already accustomed to the lower salinity. So, they were already 'prepared' for a hypo treatment.

It is the downside of maintaining fish/aquarium at a lower salinity. It doesn't prevent disease but it can make a hypo treatment less effective.

Those who take advice to run their systems at salinity below the ocean's level are not providing an optimum habitat for their specimens. And those who do this to keep their fish free of disease are taking bad advice. I run my system at 1.022 sp. gr. and the reason for that is that I run a FOWLR system and want to make it a bit easier to maintain oxygen in the water and to make it easier on the fish to drink their freshwater.

As soon as you're set to treat with copper, I'd begin to raise the salinity and begin the copper treatment. I'm inclined to think now that no amount of hypo treatment will eradicate the MI strain you've got growing in there.

Your 50 can't go from 0 bio-load to several fishes. Start an artificial bio-load in your 50 by adding ammonia or food to kick off the cycling. But, like Randall_James said, make sure your fish are clean of disease before you put them in there.

:)

[guyguerra]

"Parasites are less likely to survive and we have fewer problems when we keep our salinity lower"


This is what I think also. I started introducing Cupramine.

What salinity would you increase to? Would you slowly bring the salinity back to normal, or keep it lower, which might be easier on the fish? That would be the only reason I can think of to keep it low, and I'm nor sure that low salinity is any real help at all now.

[guyguerra]

You've run your aquarium at a lower-than-normal salinity. When Marine Ich invaded, that MI was already accustomed to the lower salinity. So, they were already 'prepared' for a hypo treatment.


Please disregard the quote in the previous post, I pasted the wrong sentence. This is what I was agreeing with. Guy

[Randall_James]

I would say a minimum of 1.022, I keep my reef tank at 1.027 but that is a coral tank.

[leebca]

Guy,

Bring your sp. gravity back up to the mark you will be putting your display tank sp. gravity at. Like I wrote, I keep FOWLR so I keep mine at 1.022. You would want it higher if you're keeping a reef aquarium.

Be sure to go very slow with raising the salinity. I wouldn't keep it low for the sake of the fish, but I would go very slow at raising it, so you can start the copper treatment when you're at the 1.018 mark and you still raise the sp. gr. with water changes over the following week.

:)

[guyguerra]

It's been a month now since I raised my salinity to 1.022 and added Cupramine. I did it over a 7 day period. All signs of ich are gone and the remaining fish are very healthy looking. I plan to continue treatment for 2 more weeks, then transfer the fish to my 50 gallon QT while I change my new 230 gallon tank that should be arriving then. One lesson learned is to use the manufactures test kit for the medication that is being used. If my LFS would have carried Seachems copper test kit, I would have seen these results the first time I used it.

The 50 gallon tank looks great, since its had 10 weeks to let the LR grow some nice algae and develop a good bio system. I'll start the move by moving my two clowns in two weeks, then add the Foxface a week later, then the two butterfly's the week after that. I know that's a lot of fish for the 50 gallon, but I'm prepared to do frequent water changes. From my experience so far, it seems like I would be better of in the long run by keeping the fish out of the new 230 gallon tank for a while to let it develop a good bio system. I'll have to see how the 50 gallon holds up with the 5 fish that will be in it.

[Randall_James]

Cupramine usually requires 14 days as I recall. Make sure what ever it is, you follow the directions to the letter.
Is pretty critical to use the supplier of the coppers test kits as there are different copper tests

[leebca]

Guy,

Sounds like you're finally getting the upper hand. You've come 'full circle' with copper.

Good luck! :)

[guyguerra]

HI Lee, I just got back from a month long honeymoon (I got married June 5th) and saw your reply. My Ich battle is over for now and all the survivors look great! I've moved the Foxface and two clowns into my 50 gallon tank and will move the Ariga Butterfly and Copperband when the 230 gallon tank arrives in two weeks (my existing 120 is going to my brother). Both of my tanks look great now. I added two corals to the 50 gallon 1 1/2 months ago, which are also doing well. Once the 230 gallon is set up all fish, rock and corals will move to that one and the 50 gallon will function as a QT to slowly introduce new fish into the large tank (one fish at a time). There were times when I thought I made a mistake getting into this hobby, but I am really enjoying it, and have learned a lot, so far.
Guy

[leebca]

Congratulations on your marriage. Good news about your fish.

Live long and prosper! :)

[TerryB]

There are a couple of unusual strains from Tawian that seem to appear occasionally now in the trade. If you maintained the salinity consistently at 14ppt or less for a month and the fish still have ich then there are a couple of possibilities. You may be dealing with one of the resistant strains or it may be something other than ich.

Your fish should not be stressed from hypo as long as you check your pH daily and add a buffer as needed. The reason that I do not suggest mixing hypo with copper is because the pH tends to drop in hypo. Copper becomes increasingly toxic when the pH falls.

If you have encountered one of the unusual strains from Tawian then you still have the option of the transfer method or Cupramine. Cupramine is the only copper that I trust, but it still needs to be tested twice a day for the first couple of weeks and once a day after that until treatment is completed.
I am sure that you have figured a lot of this out by now since your fish are well now. Good job hanging in there.

Cheers,
Terry B

[zens]

out of curiosity what else is there that looks like ich? I seem to have
a resistant strain on one of my qt'd fish. 10 weeks in hypo at 1.008
and as soon as I start raising the salinity the specs start to appear again. doesn't look full blown but I can clearly see maybe 10 or so salt grain like raised spots.

[guyguerra]

I've seen sand on my Mandarin that looked like ich, I've had spots that break out on my Kole tang every two months or so, then go away, and I believe there is some hypochondriac situations that we falsely diagnose as Ich. I have stopped treating my fish so quickly. I used to start treatment after seeing one spot. I have Qt'd all my fish, but did end up with a minor ich problem in my 230 gallon tank. It went away with just good maintenance and vitamins, and hasn't been back. There are always going to be losses when buying new fish, and we might blame it on ich, but I question that, and believe some fish just wont adapt to captivity. I also know people that loose more fish than others, which I believe is the difference of how we take care of our tanks. I have a 230 and 50 gallon reefs, and have stopped treating for ich. I've seen a group of three new fish go into QT, 1 dies and two live. after 6 weeks they are healthy and are placed in their new home. I haven't lost a fish other than the weak ones in a long time, and both my reef tanks have very healthy looking fish. I was new to the hobby two years ago, and get a lot of compliments on my tanks and the myriad of fish, corals fuge stuff, etc. from people doing it longer than me. When I started I killed a lot of fish "treating for ich". I believe the stress we put on these poor fish that go thru all they do before ending up in our tanks is hard enough. To then subject them to hypo or copper is making matters worse IMO. !0 weeks of hypo is a long time, and if he dies it'll get chalked up in the ick column. I say keep your QT as normal as possible, and give them good care and nutrition. The healthy ones will survive. By the way, I have no idea where the Ich that showed up in my 230 came from. All fish are QT'd, so you very well will see it in your display some day. Do the best to keep it out, but if it gets in, don't overreact, you'll be sure to increase your looses if you do. Others will disagree, and start treatments at the first spot, but I am convinced I am right.

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7955726#post7955726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guyguerra
if it gets in, don't overreact, you'll be sure to increase your looses if you do. I am convinced I am right.

old thread eh..

can you define what you mean by "overreact" please?

[guyguerra]

Old problem.......

[thuddly]

"The live rock itself will survive the treatment, but any invertebrates living on and in it will be killed."

As stated in the reference page provided above.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=4748044#post4748044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Hypo in your display will kill your LR. Thinking about it, I suppose you could pull your live rock, put it in the qt tank with normal tank water then put the display into hypo. (This is provided you have never had a copper treatment in qt tank)

I would however siphon the sand out also. I believe that you need to be able to vacuum the bottom of that tank every morning. I know it is not the most pleasing look (bare tank) but you need to eliminate this pest from your system.

I to have seen plenty of posts about cures by using ginger and garlic. The biggest problem to any of these is that they do not know if it was even ich they were working on in the first place.

The problem with quote you have is that ich is going to fall off the fish within a few days no matter what the salinity is. It is just a question of "when" you noticed the problem in the first place.

I tend to go along with the tried and true advice of the pros. A guy dumping ginger or garlic in his home science experiment salt tank just does not instill much confidence in their methods.

They then jump on and post about these "Miracle" cures with methodology that frankly is no better than waving a wand over the tank. Luck I am sure is a big part of the program and I am sure the truth be known, these same guys often have a return of the problem or loose fish anyway.

I think the main moral to this is to qt all livestock.

[kevin2000]

My 02

Not sure i follow this thread. But hypo and copper both require good testing equipment for their treatments to be effective. Neither kills ich on the fish and both require the right concentration to be effective.

[jc16]

so what would be the most effective way to qt fish from the lfs?

[wayne in norway]

Bare bottom tank with internal bio filtering and pvc tubing and (shock horror!) some plastic plants works a treat for me. Prophelactic prazi is not a bad idea either, and ready with that copper....

[Stuart60611]

Well, I too am doing hypo (1.008) in the display with rock and substrate remaining. I am now in about my 6th week of hypo (began 9/26). My fish show no visible signs of ich. However, my trigger is still engaging in violent rubbing against the overflow, although far less frequently. He seems to do this only once or twice per evening (when I am home to observe him), where before he was doing it constantly. As such, I am pretty sure I stil have ich. I am not sure that this will ulimately be effective. It may just take longer with rock and substrate left in the display. However, I would think that this should work. Hypo kills the ich in its free swimming stage. As such, eventually, all cysts will hatch and enter the free swimming state to be killed by the hypo. I cannot fathom why this would not work, but obviously it sometimes does not. Very frustrating.

[kevin2000]

Rubbing is just a sign of an irritation which maybe related to a current parasite or maybe just an irritation from an open wound caused by ich. In theory hypo should work in your current situation but I would maintain it for at least 6 weeks and probably longer.

[Stuart60611]

I plan on at least maintaining hypo for 8 weeks. I may decide to pull the trigger out of the tank briefly (since he seems easy to catch, particularly because he attacks any object I put in the tank) and give him a 60 minute bath in paraguard. Perhaps this will rid him of anything causing the rubbing.

[limitdown]

Watch your PH when doing hypo as it tends to drop off very quickly. Keep the water well aerated and use marine buffer