DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[Hobster]

Hi Anthony,

I had posted this in a previous thread but appears to have been buried. My question is below your quote. This method is discussed in your Book of CP? I have RI and did not see it there. Will this method work for de nitrification even without the square footage and DSB animals that is recomended by others???:confused:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
no worries... theres a mention of DSB buckets in threads on RC here (this forum too I think) as well as in my coral prop book.

But it is as literal as it sounds: having your DSB in a large bucket or garbage can rather than in a display. It can stay unlit and needs little or no servicing. Just a stream of water flowing atop it. The vessel is to be filled nearly to the top with only a few inches of water running above it. A five gallon bucket will hold about 60lbs of oolitic sand and service perhaps a 90-120 gallon aquarium (larger tanks with lighter bioloads too). Big displays often use a non-toxic plastic garbage can (or food barrel) with more sand of course.
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Using this method, is there no need then for sand bed animals as others claim to be so important? The water will diffuse (if that is the correct term) all the way down the 5 gal bucket and this will provide enough denitrification? amazing


__________________

[Anthony Calfo]

it is a modest strategy and dependant on bioload of course. But so cheap to employ, and easy to remove if you don't like it.

My LFS finally tried this with a 55 gall tank full (nearly to the top) of sand with a good stream of water traversing the length of the tank. It was staggering how fast it reduced nitrates on a nearly 2K gallon system.

A 5 gallon bucket with a 60lb bag of sand filling it can do similar/remarkable work on say a 90-120 gallon tank. A larger plastic garbage can (kitchen size... 20 gall or so) with a couple hundred lbs of sand, etc.

The goal here is denitrification and buffering (if using aragonite).

There are not many other benefits... and not many risks either. Unlit and with a strong stream of water over it, its a fairly brainless application :p Cover it and keep it dark... there is little to maintenance to speak of for it. You can imagine that with the good water flow (key) or even mechanically prefiltered water... there is no way for this to practically become a nutrient sink, as the small fast volume of water cruising over it do not allow the settling/sinking of much solid matter over time.

[Hobster]

Thanks.:)
How would one plumb such a bucket? If this is in your book, please let me know and I shall go order one.:thumbsup:

[Anthony Calfo]

just get a curved-wall bulkhead (US Plastics Corp or the like) and tap the bucket very high up (near the top). The filled bucket will have just a few inches of water atop the sand (overflowing the bulkhead back to the sump for example)

[grim]

It's refreshing to see such an interesting new implementation come up after what seems like years of debate over every variation thought possible.

jb

[Kelmen]

I just read that the surface volume of the DSB would play a factor for its effectiveness as well.

Looks like bucket is too small.

[Alfalfameister]

Hmmm... I do have a question regarding DSBs in a bucket/drum/other container.

Would it be better if you had a "raceway" type remote DSB setup? Say for example, a container that is 4 feet long, 8 inches high (water level), only 4 inches wide? With DSB 6" high (meaning that the water above the DSB is only 2"?

Also, with only 2" of water above the DSB, then that would be (whips out calculator...)... 1.66 gallons of water... and therefore flow should be fast enough (good enough water flow that Anthony says is key).

An analogy would be taller skimmers being able to provide more contact time, so a longer container could provide more "contact" time, too (vis-a-vis DSB in a bucket).

But as Anthony is out (come back! We're more fun than discus! :) ), anyone else want to chime in their comments?

P.S. Anthony, please schedule a trip to the Philippines, too... :)

[Hobster]

A question that still remains with me is: If the water is flowing over the top of the sand, once the sand is saturated how does water diffuse down into the depth of the sand bed/bucket? It seems it would just run over the top. How then does denitirification take place? This is a very different then the method of large square footage and lots of sand bed critters to keep the bed active.

[dmirza]

my understanding (from reading this and other expert forums) is that a remote DSB does not work because the DSB does not get enough food to sustain a reasonable infauna. Why would a DSB in a bucket work, when a DSB in a 25" X 15" refugium would not?

IF we had a buckets worth of sand in a small refugium, would that make the small refugium DSB usefull in reducing nitrates, or does this have something to do with the configuration of DSB in a bucket?

Thank you for the help in advance.

[Hobster]

It appears we will have to remain in suspense untill Anthony returns from his trip. Poor guy, all that work, work, work :D

[walt13]

I am no expert but I believe different types of DSB's work differently depending on grain size, depth, water flow and lighting. I may be wrong but I believe the denitrification is helped with the lack of lighting and high flow rate in this case. Most fuges and other DSB are lit. I do not know why this works but reading this and some of the other threads, leads me to make this guess.

Walt

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Quote - My LFS finally tried this with a 55 gall tank full (nearly to the top) of sand with a good stream of water traversing the length of the tank. It was staggering how fast it reduced nitrates on a nearly 2K gallon system.


Hello Anthony, just out of interest from placement of the above DSB how long did it take to "Kick in" and start denitrification?

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, all :)

I haven't stepped on the plane yet... :p

Indeed, yes... increased surface area has its advantages, but we need to be crystal clear here on our (limited) expectations for a restricted DSB like this:

It will become biologically active on a microscopic level of course... but not much more than that.

This really is about reducing nitrates... and not much more.

The lack of "food" in the form of solid matter is the very thing that prevents such deep, fast flow beds from becoming nutrient sinks. Yet we can still enjoy (or cannot stop) the possible denitrifying faculties from pulling from the constant stream of dissolved matter in the water always above the bed.

That pet shop 55gall DSB noticed nitrates dropping in less than a month.

As far as the question of "how does diffusive movement occur"... I would ask the following question in reply: how does it not occur? In a rather wacky analogy... do consider if at the bottom of your DSB bucket, barrel or tank... you first poured gasoline enough to fill the vessel 1/10th. Then you fill the rest of the vessel with dry or live sand... and turn it all online. Would anyone like to venture a guess if the gasoline at the bottom of that vessel will ever make it to the surface, or diffuse otherwise to the extent that it influences water quality? :p

I think it will :D

The DSB is not so literally sealed off from or isolate from the system water. It is fluid - literally... actually, with the delightfully unstable nature (round) of oolitic grains of sand in the case of aragonite.

The application summarily has limited benefits, limited risks, limited expense... and limited baggage (long-term). Its just a deep bucket of sand :D If you have to buy bucket and sand new... the bucket will cost you more :p

Worst case scenario... it doesn't work, and you wasted $10. It won't be the first $10 you waste on your reef tank. heehee :)

But I have honestly seen this simply application work many times. For a normal (not over)bio-load... it can make a difference.

Let's find someone here online that has consistently struggled with some reasonable (readable on a test kit) levels of nitrate, to just try it... take readings at the beginning of the month, than again after one month... after a second month or more if they are willing. And let us know some details about that particular case. Bucket size, sand amount, system size and bioload, feeding/fish/coral load... etc.

kindly,

Anthony :)

[dmirza]

thanks Anthony,

That makes a lot of sense now.

[wrassie86]

Anthony

Is there any worry of a cycle happening when starting the bucket up right away.I have a small nitrate issue on a BB tank and am giving this a try.

thanks

[emora]

Interesting thread.

I saw one of these working at a shop in Seattle called Coral Beauty. I talked with the owner about it for a couple of minutes. He was very enthusiastic about it and said they work very well.

I thought it was brilliantly simple. Cheap too.

[botp2k1]

Nice discussion here, really like the idea of this, always thought a large surface area was needed. Tagging along.

[fishdr]

so this would be used to reduce nitrates???


Wouldn't there be any problems with having a bucket of sand that is 24" deep. I would think that no oxygen would make it that far down.

[emora]

If I am not mistaken Nitrate reduction occurs in the absence of oxygen. The bacteria that populate the anarobic (low o2) and anoxic (no o2) spaces are adapted to use nitrogen.

[PUGroyale]

Originally posted by fishdr
I would think that no oxygen would make it that far down.

:lol: that's the idea...

[fishdr]

I always thught we were looking for low O2, not no O2.


When I had a DSB it turned black at the bottom. I thought that was because I did not have enough flow in the tank, so the DSB was getting no oxygen at all

[mwood]

Is the covering of the bucket just removing light, or also removing a source of oxigen.?

I'm curious, a friend said he read that a study found high oxigen content 12' below the ocean floor. That would imply that our dsb's don't reflect what is found in nature. Can anyone confirm or contradict this?

[emora]

The argument surrounding anoxic metabolism is because nitrogen is consumed and hydrogen or rather hydrogen sulfide is produced. Some people are scared that one day the hydrogen sulfide will somehow escape and kill everything.

I had the opportunity to move a tank with an old established dsb with plenty of dark pockets and other purported nasty things. People had scared the dickens out of me saying it would be a catastrophe, that the system was a time bomb, and lots of other unfounded opinions. I found no rotten egg smell and suffered no deaths. Amonium, Nitrite and Nitrate levels were undetectable immediatly after the move and over the next weeks.

This direct experience motivated me to read everything I could about DSBs and the metabolic processes that take place in them. All I found was a lot of myths about bad things in DSBs and A LOT of sound science in their favour.

[Hobster]

This direct experience motivated me to read everything I could about DSBs and the metabolic processes that take place in them. All I found was a lot of myths about bad things in DSBs and A LOT of sound science in their favour.

Dr Ron and Anthony would certainly agree with that!:)

[km133688]

tag

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by mwood
Is the covering of the bucket just removing light, or also removing a source of oxigen.?


Covering it to remove the light should be anough if the sand is deep enough.

I'd think you would still want some O2 conatct time with the water flow.

[emora]

The ones I saw running were uncovered. Just sitting next to the sump. But I have no idea what kind of results they were getting.

[botp2k1]

Anyone experimented yet?

[superedge88]

I think that since I am setting up my 220 I could give this a try without any ill effects. The only thing I can think of as a possible problem would be the cycle that would occur if I decided to take off the DSB in a bucket.

[mike89t]

Wouldn't the sand in the buckett eventually become like cement as the bacteria and calcium glue the sand together?

I guess it would eventually become like a giant piece of live rock shaped like a bucket.

[emora]

Why would the sand clump together thoughout the bucket? Dont the bacteria that cause the sand to clump live on the surface or top layer of the sand?

[mike89t]

Originally posted by emora
Why would the sand clump together thoughout the bucket? Dont the bacteria that cause the sand to clump live on the surface or top layer of the sand?

Here is what Dr Ron has to say on the subject
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=466493&highlight=concrete

Originally posted by Dr Ron
Many aquaria are saturated with dissolved mineral salts such as magnesium and calcium carbonates. In the sand bed where water flow is slow and the chemical milieu is different than in the water column, precipitation of calcium salts can cause clumping. The high pH environment you mention facilitates this clumping. In essence, in such a situation what is created is a type calcareous sandstone.

The other cause is clumping due to bacterial cementation. The bacteria in the sand bed glue the grains together with a material referred to as a glycoprotein; basically this is a material about the consistence of rock candy. Once the bacteria have bound the sediment, the minerals can also precipitate and make the binding permanent.

When one inoculates a sand bed, one needs to strive for maximum diversity of the burrowing infauna. The action of these small animals will keep the sediment rather continuously in motion and prevent the cementation. In addition to the lack of these "motivators" of sediment motion, the larger sediment particles tend to resist movement, and consequently facilitate the cementation.


Without the infauna moving throughout the sand I would assume there is nothing to keep it from clumping.

[threeheaddog]

Been running this application for years.

Never seen or heard of anyone else using or talking about it before reading this post.

i call it "Remote Scrubbing"


Directions:

1. Fill 5G salt bucket to within top 3" with oolitic sand

2. Cover

3. Prefilter intake

4. Swap every 1.5 to 2 years

*5G bucket treats around 50g with normal bio-load

*can unhook and test for efficiency

*buffering capacity

*cheap

[Hobster]

How are you prefiltering? Do you have it in a sump and then just runs over the top or how is it plumbed?

Thanks.

[threeheaddog]

Prefilter sponge on intake - plumbs into top - bucket is higher than tank - bulkhead drain on side to return. very simple.

Reefkeeping can be very cheap...

where can i get an expet opinion on this?

[botp2k1]

What kind of flow are you getting and what kind of pump?

[islandboy]

i was thinking about incorporating a DSB bucket to my setup. i have a 2" drain from my internal horizontal overflow to my sump. this drain goes directly into a dedicated compartment for my skimmer which sits in the sump. i was thinking of tee'ing off this drain line to the DSB bucket which will then drain into the sump, thus using gravity instead of adding another pump. the only thing is that not all the raw water will go into the skimmer section first. i don't think that it will matter because not all the water that enters that compartment goes directly into the skimmer anyways, but i would like to hear other's opinions.

[Daemonfly]

I'm thinking of trying one out on my 20g long. Just a piece of 6" PVC with about a foot of sand in it, will be prefiltered from the 10g fuge.

[Dr.Ocean]

I got a 15g high as a spare.Am thinking of using it as my DSB bucket after struggling with Nitrates in my tank.But it wont be "Dark" as its a glass tank.Would that be ok?

[Lrgclasper]

What about letting the water trickle down through the bucket and letting it drain on the bottom? I would think this is a much more effective method to increase contact with the sand. By the time the water was a few inch's into the sand I am sure it would be anerobic anyhow.

[superedge88]

Originally posted by islandboy
i was thinking about incorporating a DSB bucket to my setup. i have a 2" drain from my internal horizontal overflow to my sump. this drain goes directly into a dedicated compartment for my skimmer which sits in the sump. i was thinking of tee'ing off this drain line to the DSB bucket which will then drain into the sump, thus using gravity instead of adding another pump. the only thing is that not all the raw water will go into the skimmer section first. i don't think that it will matter because not all the water that enters that compartment goes directly into the skimmer anyways, but i would like to hear other's opinions.

I think that it may be better to put water through the "DSB in a bucket" that has already has much of the organics filtered out, so basically give it water that has already gone through your skimmer. This would help make sure that a smaller amount of organics could possibly settle in the DSB bucket. Just a thought.

[islandboy]

good point superedge88. i do agree with you. i was just trying to eliminate the need of another pump. if i had "brisk" water movement on the top of the bucket though, i wonder if that would be good enough to keep the build up of organics on the sand. anyway, will probably take your advice because it is better to be safe than sorry. thanks again for the input!!

[Anthony Calfo]

(solids) prefiltered water across the DSB is a good idea... but dripping most any kind of water through the bucket is bad. Or at least... it will largely defeat the purpose of having a DSB- denitrification - by bullrushing the media/substrate with oxygen rich water.

[Daemonfly]

Originally posted by Dr.Ocean
I got a 15g high as a spare.Am thinking of using it as my DSB bucket after struggling with Nitrates in my tank.But it wont be "Dark" as its a glass tank.Would that be ok?

You could paint it black (removeable with a razorblade, or use some other way of blocking out light, thick black paperboard as an example.

[Dr.Ocean]

How much flow is enough?I have 5g bucket full of sand and ready to use. am thinking 250gph.Should I go for less gph?

[Anthony Calfo]

not much flow is needed... just enough to keep any solids in the stream suspended and moving on/along. Simply observe and increase as/if necessary

[Dr.Ocean]

Thank you Anthony,

Well,
I collected the sand(dry) yesterday from a very far beach where no people at all(no people=no polution) and filled my 5g bucket to almost the top. of course I have already made 2 holes.I used an old 260gph pump which was to strong in my case,Ballvalve was installed and every thing went just fine.I didn't wash the sand since I wanted more buffring capacity.

After 2min of oporating my skimmer went CRAZY! I already empteyed the cup twice.I don't know if its because I didn't clean the sand.Plus the water went littel cloudy.I will run some carbon today and see what happens.

Just to keep you guy in the pic.My only goal of running the DSB is to getrid of the Naitrats.Its over 50ppm in my 80g light stocked tank.Hopefully its going to work.

[Dr.Ocean]

Forgot to mintion that my skimmer is producing "millky" skimmate

[mwood]

I've been real tempted to do this but have been worried about a cycle due to the crud left in the sand, I have someone elses old DSB sand. Should I just not worry about it or is there some way to clean it?

[Lrgclasper]

Why not just go down to home depot and spend 10$ on silica sand? In my opinion it isn't worth the hassel of collecting sand. Besides, sand from the beach is loaded with crap. Think about all the birds crapping in it, the occasional dead animal, dead seaweed and other plant matter, dissolved pollution in the water column, and dog crap and other mammalian love bites.

[mwood]

Dude, no posts like that so near to lunchtime. ;)

[mwood]

PS, if this price is correct and sand is safe and recommended for this application, this may be the way to go.

lowes / playsand (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=10392-286-14104&category=15&lpage=none&bc=c)

[Anthony Calfo]

yep... agreed with our Alaskan friend here:

use clean, dry sand and avoid the baggage.

A DSB bucket should literally cost less than $20 to make (most of which is the cost of the bulkhead unless you skip that altogether and let the bucket gurgle/overflow its sides while sitting in a large open sump)

[Lrgclasper]

I still think some light drippage would be much better than just letting the sand soak. I am thinking something on the order of one DSB volume every 3-6 hours or so. Heterotrophic denitrification (anaerobic) is very common in public aquariums and wastewater facilities. They always have a low flow going through the media. Having some flow through the media is critical to insure efficient operation. If you think about it, water towards the bottom of the bucket is not going anywhere (or at a very low flow), just sitting there. Organics will likely sink to the bottom and denitrification will occur, but not at a useful rate. There are many articles published on this (goggle heterotrophic denitrification).

I attached a link to an interesting cotton denitrification filter used in wastewater management. I have another article published in an Elasmobranche Husbandry Journal, if your interested I can get the citation.

http://www.wrc.org.za/downloads/watersa/2005/Apr-05/1794.pdf

[Dr.Ocean]

Well the water is clear now and the skimmer stopped producing any foam.I have just tested my Nitrates its at 60ppm.Will be testing and posting the results on weekly basis .

[Lrgclasper]

I am thinking of building a denitrate filter using sulfer beads and crushed oyster shells to buffer the effluent. Anyone used sulfer beads before?

[Andys29]

I just turned a 5g bucket into a DSB w/ cheato and a light on it. Check it out on Diary of 30g cube SPS tank thread.

[kenny77]

what kind of sand are you guys using?

[emora]

Any sand will do. Just "clean, dry sand" as Anthony said above.

I have a few bags laying around with fine aragonite sand which I'm going to use

[captbunzo]

Anthony - you mention that this should cost $20 or less. What type of sand are you including in this price? Are we maybe talking something like the Southdown play sand I have heard is sold at Home Depot?

[Lrgclasper]

I would get silica sand from home depot. I have used that stuff for years without any problems. You might mix some argonite in for buffer.

[Cody Ray]

I think I finally figured out what seaclone skimmers are for, lol! You could easily fill one almost to the top of the tub that enters the skimmer body with sand, and I'm sure that the constant swirling of the water would prevent ANYTHING from settling on the surface of the sand. Might need to replace the pump with something smaller, might be a bit too much IMO.

[emora]

ChinChek if the flow is to high through the sand there will not be any anaerobic or anoxic areas and threfore there will be no nitrate reduction.

Anthony is saying to have a slow flow OVER the sand rather than through it.

Although its probably still better than using the seaclone as a
skimmer ;-)

[Cody Ray]

This is what I really ment to get across
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/FLCL787/dsbbucket.jpg
The water would enter through the bottom like normal and exit though the top like normal, except there isn't any air being bled into the pump. The key is that when the water exits the top of the tube it is swirling, which would preven ANYTHING from settling on the surface of the sand. However, a much smaller pump would be needed, the maxi-jet 1200 would create a sand storm!

[captbunzo]

Originally posted by ChinChek787
This is what I really ment to get across
The water would enter through the bottom like normal and exit though the top like normal, except there isn't any air being bled into the pump. The key is that when the water exits the top of the tube it is swirling, which would preven ANYTHING from settling on the surface of the sand. However, a much smaller pump would be needed, the maxi-jet 1200 would create a sand storm!

You're missing one REALLY important point - that is that water flowing through your tank, and especially out and throw piping, etc, is LOADING with oxygen. At least it is in comparison to the defintions of anoxic and anerobic.

Rather, the only thing you need is the small amount of water flowing across the top of the sand. With the small water volume and the moderate flow, it will wash all things away wonderfully.

And, btw, I believe what you are describing is called a Fluidized Sand Filter. I believe they are more often and appropriately used in fish stores and larger aquariums.

The REAL experts here - Please correct me if I am wrong...

[Cody Ray]

Hmm, still am not getting the idea across. The water isn't traveling THROUGH the sand. The tube that feeds the skimmer only lets water out from the top. If the sand is poured around that tube (which is inside the skimmer) than the water entering the skimmer goes through the tube, out the top, fills the chamber, and exits the skimmer body. The top layer of sand will be oxygenated, however the skimmer itself is deep enough that most of the sand will be oxygen-poor.

[Cody Ray]

Also, like I said, a smaller pump would be used, and air is NOT added like it would normally be if it were being used as a skimmer.

[emora]

The water isn't traveling THROUGH the sand.

I got it.

The major issue I see is the size. You cant fit much sand in there. You wont get much of a result either. I rather defeats the point of using this method.

Just get a cheap 5 gallon bucket.

[Cody Ray]

I would, however I do not have the room in my stand, it is only 10" wide!

[mwood]

The issue I had when I tried a DSB in a bucket is the sand storm. I used a rio 1100 with a valve to turn the flow down and still ended up with sand everywere. Locked up the return pump and was a PITA to clean up. After that I just yanked it and put in more LR. It's a cool idea, but not worth that risk.

Marcus

[emora]

Originally posted by mwood
The issue I had when I tried a DSB in a bucket is the sand storm. I used a rio 1100 with a valve to turn the flow down and still ended up with sand everywere. Locked up the return pump and was a PITA to clean up. After that I just yanked it and put in more LR. It's a cool idea, but not worth that risk.

Marcus

Way too much flow

[emora]

Originally posted by ChinChek787
I would, however I do not have the room in my stand, it is only 10" wide!

Perhaps you should consider a different solution.

[mwood]

Originally posted by emora
Way too much flow


Rio 1100's are rated at 300 gph. If I had it turned down to 250 or 200, that is too much flow? In a 20 gal tote with 4" of water on top of the sand?

[Anthony Calfo]

I have 1100 gph going through a 20 gall marsh refugium with 3" of sugar fine oolitic sand... and all from a 1" nozzle! Not a grain of sand disturbed, so to speak.

The solution: a $1.49 Aquaclear powerfilter foam block slitted and slipped onto the end of the feed line. The water diffuses gently through a foam block.

Be resourceful my friends.

[mthedude]

I'm thinking if you took a plain old 5g bucket and placed it in the sump you could feed it with raw water from the overflow if you rigged up some sort of drip tray w/prefilter to difuse the water over the surface of the sand more, then just let the water spill over the sides and back into the sump, it wouldn't be devoid of light in my setup as my fuge is next in line w/my sump but I think it would probaby work. Cheapest way to zero nitrates for thos of us who have been plagued w/NO3 since day one.

[Cody Ray]

I have 1100 gph going through a 20 gall marsh refugium with 3" of sugar fine oolitic sand... and all from a 1" nozzle! Not a grain of sand disturbed, so to speak.

What pump are you using to create all of that flow?

[A.G]

Hi guys,

I am posting to tell every one that I have tried the remote DSB bucket in my 80g tank and am happy to say that my Nitrate is undetectable.

I had problem with maintaining corals coloration for over a year because of nitrate . All my corals are regainign their colors back after 3 weeks of installing the DSB bucket.I have not done any changes to my setup exept for the DSB bucket. I used 5g bucket with very fine dry sand collected from a beach.I had over 50ppm No3 and believe me I have tried every thing to get it down.Thanks to Anthony am now back on the track :) .

If any one had a Q about my DSB please feel free to ask.

A.G

[Marcelog]

Originally posted by A.G
If any one had a Q about my DSB please feel free to ask.

How much flow do you have going through it (pump)? How much sand/water (inches).?

You said ask :)

Marcelo -

[A.G]

am using pump rated for 250gph.Sand is about 10-11" deep:)

[captbunzo]

Again, I say, way too stinking cool...

[Anthony Calfo]

Thanks AG :)

[A.G]

Thank you Anthony :thumbsup:

[Cody Ray]

Marine Biology all the WAY!!! :D

[trmiv]

Bringing this back from the dead. Any more updates from people who have done this? I really want to try this on my new 75, but I really don't have a clue how I would plumb this.

Since the primary purpose of this is nitrate reduction, could this be used in place of a macro algae refugium? If I went that way, I could do this under my stand with an elevated bucket, pump water up to it from my sump, and let it drain by bulkhead down to the sump.

Would the best way to do this be to plumb the bulkheads (supply and drain) on opposite sides of the bucket? That way the water enters one side at the top, flows over the sand, and drains out the other side? Would I want both at the same level, or one higher than the other?

[captbunzo]

I think you are pretty much right on.

[trmiv]

OK, I might have to give this a try.

So would one 5g bucket cut it for a 75g tank, or should I do more?

[Cody Ray]

I'd say bigger is better, but some is better than none (wasn't THAT helpful :D )

[trmiv]

Well I'd like to do like two 5 gallon, or a 20 gallon, but I don't think more than one 5 gallon, and maybe like a 2.5 gallon bucket would fit under my stand with my sump under there.

[Cody Ray]

I would say a 15 high would be your best bet

[trmiv]

Yea, that might work. Seems like a bucket would be the easiet setup though. I'll have to see what I have room for when I get my new stand.

My question is, is this method of nitrate reduction more efficient than macro algae growth? Would I gain addition beneft from also growing and pruning macro in addition to this method? Note that I'm not referring to a "refugium" but simply a macro algae growing area the sump.

[Anthony Calfo]

macroalgae in the sump cannot even begin to compare in potential (its inferior) in this application if typical.

[trmiv]

Ahh, nice. I can then supplement this with phosban in a reactor to reduce phosphate. I'm going to give this a go on my new 75, I'll try to get two buckets under the stand, but we'll see how it goes. 1 at least. With my large horizontal overflows flowing directly into my ASM G1X recirculating, DSB in a bucket, and a phosban reactor, I should be able to stay on top of my nutrients well.

Only thing that I need to worry about is the logistics of this. How I'm going to cram it under my stand, how to plumb, how to return back to the sump, etc.

[Cody Ray]

macroalgae in the sump cannot even begin to compare in potential (its inferior) in this application if typical.

I don't mean to sound argumentative in any way, but do you have any proof of this? I have never heard this before, and I would be more than grateful to see some supporting research for this theory/fact.

[superedge88]

While plants are good at using up nitrates and the like, they are usually not the only form exportation used in a tank simply because they are not very efficient at using up these nasties (at least in the amounts that we would like them to) A pound for pound comparison would not be very fair between the potential of nitrate reduction in macroalgae grow out vs. DSB. The sheer amount of surface area that a DSB has that can hold the anaerobic bacterial colony is staggering, while the surface area of macroalgae for the consumption of nitrate in direct comparison is not even close to that of the DSB. Lighting a macroalgae grow out area constantly is not really an option, so with the day and night lighting periods the consumption of nitrate is not a 24/7 mechanism, while the DSB is a constant mechanism for the reduction of nitrate. While I have not given you any real proof, I think that I may have hopefully made a couple of good points that may make things a bit more clear as to why the DSB in a bucket has a greater potential to remove nitrates than your average size macroalgae grow out tank.

[trmiv]

This does sound like a great idea, I'm doing it for sure. Only question is HOW I'm going to do it.

I noticed regular silica sand was mentioned above. Would there be any benefit to using small grain aragonite or something like miracle mud?

[superedge88]

YES, If you use aragonite sand you will be adding to your tank's ph buffering ability. Even more benefits to adding a bucket full of sand to the tank!

[Cody Ray]

I see your point, however, (and this is anecdotal) I have had better results from macroalgae than sand. I think maybe a combination of the two would be best. My biggest issue with sand is that if there is a spike in nitrate (for reasons unknown) the bacteria can't catch up fast enough to prevent lose of life. If the same happens with macroalgae, it simply grows faster.

[superedge88]

When you state that you have had better luck with macroalgae than sand are you talking about the DSB in a bucket? OR are you talking about sand bed (maybe 6") in the main tank? I am specifically referring to the DSB in a bucket (over 12" deep, unlit, high flow over surface)

[Cody Ray]

I have run sand both ways. I actually used a fluval filter and just filled it with sand, leaving a few inches. I never noticed any difference in nitrates. When I had a regular DSB, I allways had high nitrates. With macroalgae, I have NO nitrates. Like I said, this is anecdotal, so it might just be my system.

[superedge88]

The low nitrates may also be from your feeding habits, low fish load and the like. Good to hear that you are enjoying super low nitrates!

[johnjjk]

The major benefit I see in my DSB is stable pH along with nitrate reduction.

When NH3 is metabolized aerobically it produces NO3 and H+ ions. This is the bad news as a fish tank is always heading south, to the acid zone

But with the additional step of anaerobic metabolization, NO3 is reduced to N2, HCO3- and CO2.

So the alkalinity keeps getting regenerated offsetting the H+ production.

In my tank with a large bio-load, my pH stays right about 8.1. In past years I had to adjust the pH upward a lot.

[Cody Ray]

Thanks, I actually had 5 fish my 29gallon before some very odd things happend. One of my clowns jumped out, my goby found his way into an intake, and my damsel had to go!

[gussy]

Why does this have to dark?

[Cody Ray]

What?

[Daemonfly]

I'm guessing "Why does it have to be dark?"

I beleive thats to prevent anything photosynthetic from growing in there.

[Cody Ray]

ok, that makes more sense, I would agree, and also add that organisms in general do better when their natural habitat is recreated with the greatest accuracy. Denitrifying bacteria are not regularly exposed to light, so shading them would be more natural for them.

[Herpervet]

Perhaps Anthony can comment but I would think that the light is a relativley minor issue. After all how much of the total surface area would be exposed in a 20 gallon tank for example? Just the walls of the tank and the surface.

Algae growing might be an issue as their dead remains could build up over time and muck up the situation.

Regarding the dsb in a bucket idea:

Here is an idea I came up with although I am sure others have thought of it before me. (ever notice that truely original ideas are very rare....usually you can find someone who tried out an idea decades before.... I love to digress.....)

Anyway the idea was to set up a compartmented dsb in a grid fashion. Lets say 12 compartments. After a maturation period (1 to 2 years) you would simply remove the sand from one compartment every 2 or 3 months and replace with fresh sand.

12 compartments X 2 months= 24months.

So here is a way to maintain a dsb at an age of about 3 to 4 years effective age and perhaps avoid the eventual "crash" from severe nutrient build up.

This way you export the nutrient sink and get the whole benefit of a dsb.

There might not even be a need to pre-filter the water as you simply throw out the sand to export any retained sludge etc.

I may try out this method using the buckets in my 150 gallon rubber-maid sump. I think I can fit eight 5 gallon buckets in my sump and let the water simply flow over them.

My system is a 560 gallon main display with a 150 gallon sump and 500 gallon cistern for added "ballast" water.

The question is whether eight 5 gallon buckets of sand is enough for a system of this size?

Thoughts?

[Anthony Calfo]

yep... as Herpvet thinks/thought:

lighting the DSB or not is a relatively minor issue... and we usually do not illuminate it as a practical matter.

one of the nice things about any such remote DSB is that without illumination from the display lamps, the remote DSB need not incur the "issues" (need for bioturbation) that we suffer in display DSBs for diatom growth on the sand, if nothing else.

No benefot and little harm/inconvenience to illuminate the remote DSB.

[captbunzo]

I would recommend you check back to the first page and read about the second post. Anthony tells about a LFS who used a 55G aquarium to implement this strategy for about a 2000G system. Reduced nitrates to near zero.

I am going to have to work this into the tanks that I am involved with. Sounds like a neat plan!

It also occurs to me that for smaller tanks, an unlit HOT refugium or something like that could work well, also... :)

[KEstep]

Anyone know a website that I could get the fittings to plumb this setup. None of our local stores have much to chose from.. Also some recommendations on what size and type would be nice. Thanks.

[captbunzo]

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.subsections/sid/34

You don't need a lot of flow. The uniseals on the bulkheads page might not be a bad option...

[trmiv]

I'm going to try one 5g bucket on my 75. 1/2" uniseals would probably work great for moving flow in and out of the bucket.

Still not sure if I should just get regular silica sand, or get some aragonite.

[captbunzo]

I love the arogonite option for buffering capablity. I also hate the idea of putting silica in a marine tank on purpose.

[KEstep]

I think I may have found a really good bucket to use for the DSB. My convern was possibly overflowing the bucket if the fittings were not right or if something were to somehow plug up the return line. However these buckets create a seal at the top and no leaks should happen. Just curious what you guys might think. Here is the link, they are the gamma seal buckets.

http://www.baproducts.com/pails.htm

[Herpervet]

Originally posted by captbunzo
I love the arogonite option for buffering capablity. I also hate the idea of putting silica in a marine tank on purpose.

I tend to feel the same way however if everything else is right then diatoms shouldn't be a problem. i.e. other nutrients will still be a limiting factor.

I think its been proven that silica doesn't automatically lead to issues with diatom blooms.

On the other hand there was an article (I forget where) that showed indeed silica does dissolve from the silica sand when it had been claimed it did not.

Either way many folks use it without problems apparently.

The beauty is you can always take it out.

[olemos]

Originally posted by KEstep
I think I may have found a really good bucket to use for the DSB.
Why not just use salt bucket

[KEstep]

If your sump is higher than the output of the bucket you would need it to seal so it would not overflow.

[A.G]

Hey,

Its been over a month now since I installed the DSB bcuket. I added 2 more fish to my system and stoped doing water changes to see how effective this thing is.

Nitrate : undetectable :)

Its really one of the best thing I have done so far to my 80g.

A.G

[Anthony Calfo]

I do enjoy being correct sometimes :p

Very, very happy for you my friend! :D

Indeed... a DSB bucket is soooo cheap and easy to install. At worst, its harmless and not helpful for severe nitrate issues... and very little wasted money (compared to the oh-so-many other ways we waste money as reef-keepers on silly products, livestock without QT, etc.).

but for so many folks with typical bioloads... it really is a very helpful way to reduce nitrate simply.

[trmiv]

A.G. How do you have your bucket plumbed? Just running input tube into one side, and another out the other side? How did you seal the tubes?

[A.G]

Anthony, I became a stong believer in DSB.
I still can't believe it , after all that time struggling with elevated Nitrate it took me only 5$ to fix the problem?:eek:


trmiv,
I tryed to take some photos to help you with your DSB bucket.Nothing fancy.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/AhmedGh/DSC00194.jpg

<img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/AhmedGh/DSC00212.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/AhmedGh/DSC00215.jpg

A.G

[captbunzo]

A.G.

What type of sand did you use and where did you get it?

(I apologize if this has been covered already....)

[trmiv]

A.G. thanks, looks good!. It appears the output is slightly lower than the input, was that by design?

I ordered some 1/2" uniseals, I think those will be big enough. Only planning on putting like 250-300 gph through this thing, so I guess 1/2 tubing will be enough. I'm guessing a Quiet One 1200 (296 gph) would be enough.

I'm going to do this under my tank, and then 3/4" sand bed in my tank for looks.

[Anthony Calfo]

heehee... I was the same way my friends. For all the hooting and hollering about DSBs and with drama... and for all the time, effort and money we spend trying to control nitrates - it really is this simply and cheap for many folks. Amazing :p

My first in-tank display DSB did the same for me: early 90's... a 500-ish gall reef Berlin style that I could not get the nitrates down in to save my life [no feeding of the fishes... two massive skimmers... large weekly water changes... did not control it]. Then I put 4" of fine (<1mm grains) sand in the tank... and in well under one month, the nitrates fell to near zero and stayed there! Sweet :)

Other than aesthetics, NNR (Natural Nitrate Reduction) is the principal reason I use and recommend various DSB applications.

In fact... they are two of the only reasons I recommend DSBs (many other claims about DSB potential are exaggerated or bunk IMO like zooplankton production - see the DSB thread in this forum for my take on the subject. Keyword search in/for the last six months).

[A.G]

Originally posted by trmiv
A.G. thanks, looks good!. It appears the output is slightly lower than the input, was that by design?

Yes, Otherwise I would overflow the bucket.

I would go with 3/4" or more fittings.Trust me 250 gph is plenty for 5g bucket. I have 250 gph pump with a ball valve to reduce the flow. I had sand covring the bottom of my sump when the pump was installed with no ball valves( I believe I overfilled my bucket with sand :lol: .


captbunzo, I needed lots of sand to fill the bucket and I was broke;)
So I went to an unpopulated beach and start collecting the dry sand. So far so good.:D

A.G

[trmiv]

3/4" huh? Darn, I already ordered the 1/2" uniseals. I ordered 4, maybe I'll just do one 1/2" inlet and two 1/2" outlets.

[captbunzo]

Hehe - broke... That's why I was asking! I want to keep the cost of this down when I get around to implementing it sometime in the next couple of months.

First I need to finish a power center project I am working on for the tank. And then upgrade/improve my sump/refugium. And THEN I will have the room to put a pump in my sump to feed a DSBB (Deep Sand Bed Bucket).

Now I am really wishing I went with the Mag 9.5 instead of the Mag 7. Maybe I will worry less about the total amount of flow I am pushing through my sump, save the money on that extra pump, and look for a submersible pump for my main system to use to build a closed loop. :)

[CaptiveMarine]

Anthony,

I'm in the process of building a new breeding setup (see thread here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=691322) ) since I lost my reef in the hurricane, and the DSB in a bucket really looks promising at keeping nitrates down in a fish only system with heavy feeding three and four times a day.

There two systems, each with six 20 gallon tanks and a 50 gallon sump. The filtration will consist of a filter sock for all water entering the sump, a 5' DIY counter current skimmer (aka Snailman Skimmer (http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman/diy6inskimmer.htm) ), a Pentair Aquatics Fluidized Bed filter (model FB900 rated for 900 gallons), and a 40 watt UV. Looking at my drawings I think I have room for either a 20 or 25 gallon Rubbermaid container to be plumed into the system, fed by the ruturn from the fluidized bed filter (about 250 gph). Would this be big enough to make a noticable difference in my nitrate levels, and is feeding it from the fluidized bed filter a good idea?

Thanks for all your help.

Oh, I picked up your invert book last night. Outstanding work.

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Jim

its tough to say for sure without knowing what the bioload will ultimately be. But I'd say the 25 gall rubbermaid would be a minimum for the expected heavy load. Larger would be nice (ala the mention earlier in this thread about the 55gall for a LFS).

I must also tell you that I really(!) feel the fluidized bed is an awful idea. It is a big liability (oxygen competition) in times of duress to the system. Really... trickly style filtration far outperforms fluidized beds in the long run for safe-keeping and tolerance of stress. FWIW

Thanks for your very kind words too about my NMARI book too :)

Anthony

[Daemonfly]

Having a few nano & pico tanks, whats the smallest you think you could go for these?

Just for the hell of it, 2 months ago I converted a Hagen CO2 canister over to a "DSB bucket" with about 6" of sand. Still testing, but not noticing any problems and the nitrates have been low.

[RayinAZ]

ChinChek mentioned this a few posts above, but no one commented. Could I use my old Fluval 403 to create a "mini" bucket DSB? (I know it would be smaller volume-wise than a 5 gallon) I have a 100gallon glass tank with no sump or plumbing. I don't have room in back to hang an overflow box, so I'm looking for options.

If I filled the canister with sand so it was 3-4 inches below the top and maybe added some foam up at the top (maybe one of the foam insets that came with?), as Anthony mentioned in a different context, to diffuse the water, would it work?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Ray
PS CC, the nano's working great as Quarantine tank.

[BabySeal]

Anyone try setting up a remote DSB for freshwater? I'm very interested in this topic.

[RichConley]

How much flow do you think we actually need? I'm looking at a 5g bucket, filled with sand, you've probably got 1/2 gallon of water in there... with 200 gph, thats 400x turnover.

Even running a 3.5gph Aqualifter, thats 7x turnover. If I can get by with one of those, its gonna cost me like 20 bucks total, and use almost no power.

[RichConley]

bump. Just wanted to make sure you saw this Anthony. Any idea on what the flow actually needs to be?

[captbunzo]

Ok. Let's get back to the basics.

Worry less about the exact GPH. Just eyeball it. The point is to make sure that water is flowing across at a rate sufficient enough to avoid crud from settling out. Does that make sense?

My plan, when I get around to implementing this on a system, is to Tee off of my sump return pump and control water flow via a gate valve (you could probably use a ball valve as well). And then I will allow the output of that to just flow via gravity back into the sump. With the volume of water we are talking about, this should be a find way to go, IMHO.

[Anthony Calfo]

exactly as Paul states! The only thing that matters is that enough flow is provided to keep solids in suspension. Period. :) The (tank volume of) water is processed so many times per day that the total flow is a moot issue. NNR will occur.

[trmiv]

So is southdown sand not a good idea for this? It sounds like with that nice swift current it could sweep a lot of the really fine sound out of the bucket.

I'm still considering just doing this with cheap silica sand since I can't find a cheap source of aragonite locally.

[Anthony Calfo]

oolitic sand like southdown is fine... sugar fine is... er, fine! The finer sands are better IMO for NNR.

Y'all are really missing the point here! :D

High flow is never a problem when properly diffused! (rolling laminar wall... sponge block on feed line... whatever).

Only a misplaced nozzle (gravity feed or pump line) blasting a focussed stream of water into a pile of sand will cause a snowstorm. Thats not the sand's fault ;)

[trmiv]

Ahhh. I think I am stuck with something other than Southdown though. Unfortunately here on the West Coast we don't get that fine, cheap Southdown sand.

I know this has been discussed before, but silica play sand is OK for this? I've read so many threads discussing the pro's and con's of using silica sand, I'm not even sure what the right answer is anymore. :D

[Anthony Calfo]

silica is OK for the DSB bucket and use in general.

The issue of leaching silica is generally overstated if an issue at all.

The real disadvantage of silica is its shape. Unlike oolitic sand (round/fluid moving), silica is angular and sharp - it locks in place and packs tight. As long as you prevent solids from accumulating/penetrating... there will be no problem with silica sand here. :)

[captbunzo]

Ok. Now I have a question, Captain Calfo.

Let's say you setup a tank (say a 55G - 75G) with a DSB Bucket, about an inch of fine sand on the bottom, and dead rock (limestones) as decoration. You'd probably want to setup a simple sump as a place to put in a protein skimmer, run some carbon, etc. Maybe a refugium for some growth of critters.

Once the nitrogen cycle has been given time to establish in such a tank, would such a tank provide sufficient biological filtration to support a small bioload?

I guess the core question here is whether a DSB Bucket can be used as the primary means of biological filtration for a tank? Will the sand contain enough de-ammoniaizing and de-nitriting bacteria to take care of business, as well as that which would grow in the tank water column and shallow sand bed?

Just a curiosity I have been pondering recently. Might always be a fun experiement. :)

[Thales]

Wow. I was debating setting up a coil or a remote sand bed and this thread exists! Nice.

I set one up in an old 20 gallon I had laying around. Its working fine - more in a couple of weeks. :D

trmiv, how much sand are you looking for?

[trmiv]

Lefty: Not sure how much. Whatever will fill a 5g bucket to within a few inches from the top. No idea how much that is.

[Anthony Calfo]

Paul... the dry rock alone in the display (versus LR) plus the various sand media will easily provide sufficient biological filtration to support a small bioload and then some. Nitrifying faculties will colonize surfaces fast and furiously.

But the DSB bucket alone cannot be relied on for any significent amount of nitrifying. The surface area is rather small for aerobic conditions. The DSB bucket is really just a potential (albeit) significant source of natural nitrate reduction.

[captbunzo]

Thank you for the response, Anthony.

So it sounds like the system I described would be perfectly viable. Interesting, considering all the expense one could go to buying expensive filters or whatnot.

Thanks for your time.

[Savatage]

Here we go. Give me a couple weeks and I will add this to my system. I have had many threads out here about my tank being practically overrun by GHA. Right now my Nitrates read 10ppm but we all know it's higher if I have GHA.

What I run right now is a 75gal BB with a 75gal DSB. 6" deep on the sand. By bio load is two clowns, 1 scooter blenny, 2 serpant stars, 30 Nassarrias, 30 hermits, 15-20 mushrooms, 41 pally thoas, 11 red zoos, 1 toadstool, and a couple other corals. When I get this made to tie in with my tank-to-sump I will let you all know. Then I will record my nitrates ever week, on Fridays, before I do my water changes.

QUESTION: I run fine silica sand in my sump with no problems of diatoms or anything. ANTHONY: what Exactly would you recommend for the sand I use, or don't it really matter? PM me.

[Anthony Calfo]

I do prefer some sort of calcareous/carbonate sand over silica for shape (tumbled or round) versus silica (sharp, angular).

I have very few worries about the composition of silica if you need to use it.

Get aragonite of you can... calcite is fine instead if you must for a calcareous source.

Seachem bags some very nice sands... calcite and aragonite of various colors. They are a big name that is not that hard to find in LFS shops across the states (or most LFS folks can easily order it form big regional distributors).

For how little sand is needed for a DSB bucket... it may be worth it instead of settling for silica IMO.

[Savatage]

I'll give it all a try and keep everyone up to date on haw it works. The only way I will know is if GHA starts to slow down.

As for the sand I have. I got some Handyman's silica sand and it is all like smooth little balls. It's not sharp. The only problem I have run into with using silica is the buffering factor. Either way though, I help control that by leaving lights on over my sump, 24/7.

[captbunzo]

Concerning that silica you described as "round little balls"... I'd be curious what you saw under even the most basic of microscopes.

[Large Polyp Dave]

i run a barebottom system. purely lps. nitrates close to 0 but not zero. less than 5.

just out of curiousity. i tried this DSB bucket thing
i used a tropic marine salt bucket
filled about 4/5 with bomix calcite playsand
tee'd off some of the flow from my drain lines probably... 150-200gph worth

checked nitrates after a month. still about the same level. above zero. but defintiely less than 5

then i put 5 of manilla clams (again just for fun) after i had scrubbed and quarantined them. tested after a 4 days nitrates at complete 0.

again out of curiosity, i took out the manilla clams. cracked them open and tried to feed them to my fish. only my pink tail trigger ate it. (he'll eat anything)

checked 1 weeks later. nitrates still at a full zero.

what does this tell us? i have no idea =)

but the bucket is still in there. and well. it an ugly addition to the sump.

i have a question anthony.. (if you're still even visiting this thread).. do you need sand stirrers in this dsb bucket? because i have none hehe. i put one bristle worm in there. but i think he ended up just flowing through it.

[Anthony Calfo]

no sand stirrers needed on the unlit remote DSB is there is enough water flow to keep solids in suspension over it :)

[RichConley]

Originally posted by RayinAZ
ChinChek mentioned this a few posts above, but no one commented. Could I use my old Fluval 403 to create a "mini" bucket DSB? (I know it would be smaller volume-wise than a 5 gallon) I have a 100gallon glass tank with no sump or plumbing. I don't have room in back to hang an overflow box, so I'm looking for options.

If I filled the canister with sand so it was 3-4 inches below the top and maybe added some foam up at the top (maybe one of the foam insets that came with?), as Anthony mentioned in a different context, to diffuse the water, would it work?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Ray
PS CC, the nano's working great as Quarantine tank.

You probably wont get much result from that, but you could use a bucket that seals (Like an IO salt bucket with screw on top) and just run a maxijet or something in the tank pumping water down a hose into bucket in sump. Have a line in the bucket going back to the tank...essentially making the bucket part of a closed loop.

Issue with this is the bucket NEEDS to be sealed, because if it leaks, its going to drain your tank.

Essentially turn a 5g bucket into a DIY cannister.

[Savatage]

I'm back ANTHONY or anyone. Here is a little different idea for the DSB bucket. What if I was to take my 75gal sump, section the middle 2 feet with glass. Holes drilled at the top. Here's the idea.

Water comes in at one end of sump. goes through the holes at the top of the first sleve, running over two feet of sand, then exiting the other side at the top. Pouring through the holes and filling the other end of the sump where my skimmer and return pump sit. The sand bed in the middle will be 2' x 18" x 18" deep and done with black PVC so no light gets to the sand. What do you think?????

I think it would work because of the size of the sump, it's all contained into one unit (drain, return, skimmer, cheato) and doesn't create an eyesore. I could sketch up a drawing of what it would look like, but I have no idea on how to do that on here.

[Savatage]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RayinAZ
ChinChek mentioned this a few posts above, but no one commented. Could I use my old Fluval 403 to create a "mini" bucket DSB? (I know it would be smaller volume-wise than a 5 gallon) I have a 100gallon glass tank with no sump or plumbing. I don't have room in back to hang an overflow box, so I'm looking for options.

If I filled the canister with sand so it was 3-4 inches below the top and maybe added some foam up at the top (maybe one of the foam insets that came with?), as Anthony mentioned in a different context, to diffuse the water, would it work?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Ray
PS CC, the nano's working great as Quarantine tank.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




You might as well go to your local swimming pool store and buy you a medium sized sand filter. They are completely sealed, hold a lot of sand, no light, NO WORRIES!

[Thales]

Originally posted by Savatage
I'm back ANTHONY or anyone. Here is a little different idea for the DSB bucket. What if I was to take my 75gal sump, section the middle 2 feet with glass. Holes drilled at the top. Here's the idea.

Water comes in at one end of sump. goes through the holes at the top of the first sleve, running over two feet of sand, then exiting the other side at the top. Pouring through the holes and filling the other end of the sump where my skimmer and return pump sit. The sand bed in the middle will be 2' x 18" x 18" deep and done with black PVC so no light gets to the sand. What do you think?????

I think it would work because of the size of the sump, it's all contained into one unit (drain, return, skimmer, cheato) and doesn't create an eyesore. I could sketch up a drawing of what it would look like, but I have no idea on how to do that on here.

I do something similar, but I run my sand at the end of the filtration chain, not the beginning. The way you are suggesting might allow detritus to settle onto/into the sand - skimming/'fuging the water before the sand should cut down on the amount of detritus that could get into the bed.

[captbunzo]

Excellent plan - after all, we are only attempting to remove Nitrates from the water, and that is still going to be at full strength no matter where in the chain we put it.

Not like a skimmer, which needs to be immediately after the tank overflow...

[Savatage]

I think I will have to work on my plans a little more and see what I come with for the extremely deep sand. I still have to work on getting some sand though. I have no idea what the silica would turn out to be like. Anthony said that it would probably work just fine, but he had some concerns of the jagged edges of the silica. I need to find some type of aragonite sand. NOT old castle either. I don't want to turn it into a calcium rock in time.

[Anthony Calfo]

aragonite only fuses when you allow your pH to drop low and usually rapidly as with misdosing calcium supplements (too much kalk too fast, for example) or having unstable pH (dropping very low at night).

It's easy with good water quality/stability to avoid having aragonite fuse.

I'm so very strict about maintaining a strong and stable pH (8.3-8.6... never lower than 8.3 at night)... I have yet to have aragonite fuse. I recommend high and stable pH for more than a few good reasons aside form this issue.

FWIW

[Bill Shultz]

Anthony,

First off, thanks for such a valuable post for all of us who have been fighting Nitrates for years.

I've recently set up a DSB in a 5 gallon bucket plummed into my sump. I was wondering: what is your opinion about the depth and consistency of the media which is in the DSB?

In my bucket, I've placed about 5" of sand (sugar grain size), then I have 2" of Carib Sea Aragonite reef sand above that, and then my final 1/5" is a combination of Kent Marine's Nitrate Sponge and Seachem's DeNitrate (about 4 lbs between the two).

I used this stratification in order to have the heavier rocks on top so to "protect" the sand underneath from being blown around. On top of my 8.5" of media, I have about 3.75" of water circulating at about 260 GPH.

To get back to my question. . .
Do you think I will need a deeper amount of the fine sand? I have noticed that most people do not seem to use a mix of media when they are creating these DSB buckets.

Thanks.
--Bill

[Bill Shultz]

I thought I'd include the recent pics to show everyone my setup which I described in the above post. You will notice that I used my Fluval MSF 304 Canister Filter to power the DSB bucket. The Fluval draws water from the sump return area after it has been mechanically filtered and skimmed. The Fluval pumpt into the 5 gallon bucket above and then a 3/4" bulkhead gravity drains the water back into my sump.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56016RC-DSB-1.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/586/56016RC-DSB-2.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/586/56016RC-DSB-3.jpg

[Bill Shultz]

This last pic didn't show up above so I'll just repost it here. Sorry if anyone's bothered by scrolling past the big images, but I'm a fan of making the pics as clear as possible for your viewing pleasure. I'll keep you guys posted with my progress. On Day 1 my nitrates are 50 ppm. I'm hoping to check weekly.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/586/56016RC-DSB-3.jpg

--Bill

[Bill Shultz]

Part of my recent interest in aggressive nitrate control is that I have a beautiful pinktail trigger that has decided for the past month and a half that he is no longer interested in eating. His behavior has switched from swimming around the tank and only wedging himself into rocks periodically to the present behavior which includes laying in the corners of the tank and becoming so sickly that I can catch him with little effort.

My tank has been pretty stable and the only variable that has been problematic is the nitrates. Ammonia, Nitrite are undetectable. I don't check, but I've got a good phosphate remover that I use. Temp and salinity are rock solid at 79 and 1.025 respectively. I have a porcupine puffer also in my 55 gallong tank who continues to thrive during my trigger's illness.

Has anyone heard of this type of fish behavior from high nitrates?

[RayinAZ]

Thanks for the input on my question. I've been away from RC for a while (job and family--imagine that!)

I'm intrigued by the pool filter idea. My neighbor's in the business . . .

[RayinAZ]

Thanks for the input on my question. I've been away from RC for a while (job and family--imagine that!)

I'm intrigued by the pool filter idea. My neighbor's in the business . . .

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Bill

Thank you for your kind words my friend :)

Your installation overall looks fine. Nice idea to have some coarse media atop to prevent fine sand from blowing around too easily. The mechanical prefiltration of the feed water spares the worry or concern over that such media trapping solids excessively. The flow from the Fluval is likely nicely moderate too.

True... I would like to see more than 5" of fine sand for the DSB here... but it will be helpful as it is regardless. It may well be enough after all.

As for the fishes not eating from high nitrates... it is documented over and over again, yes :( One of the more extreme expressions of it is Thyroid Hyperplasia (do some keyword searches for this). It can be caused by iodine deficiencies in the diet and/or high nitrtates (which inhibit the uptake of otherwise available iodine). A goiter is formed in the throat region which is generally not obvious until it is too late.

still... it is reversible slowly over time (months). Force feeding willl be necessary after 3-4 weeks without feeding (PM me if needed). Reduce nitrates to near zero and provide an iodine rich diet (fresh/thawed shellfish ala shrimp, crabs, etc) and Lugols iodine supplemented to the water in small daily doses faithfully (follow the reef supplement mfg dose recommendations here to start with safely).

best of luck,

Anthony

[Bill Shultz]

Anthony,

Thanks for the rapid response. I did try to forcefeed my pinktail with some sucess already.

My earlier post had a few typos in it . . . I have 8.5" of total media in my bucket:
5" of sand
2" of the 1-2mm size Aragonite
and then about 1.5" of the larger rocks on the very top.

Even though I have only 5" of sand in the bottom, do you think the 2" of Aragonite on top of this will help contribute to the total depth of the bed and (hopefully) provide for the anaerobic environment I'm hoping to achieve? Time will tell the story, but don't some people create DSB's by using Aragonite alone?

And finally, as I know that other people will surely read this forum looking for answers (as I have), I would like to hear and any techniques you have for force feeding ailing fish.

Thanks again for your time.

--Bill

[Anthony Calfo]

Pufferqueen (LMAS' Ms Kelly Jedlicki) has shown me techniques for using soft airline tubing and a syringe (no needle... the tubing hooks up to the nozzle) for injecting a high protein mash (slurry with cyclop-eeze, Selcon, etc... whatever is needed for the species/specimen). It takes some basic thought and consideration for the anatomy of the creature. Yet with slow insertion of the soft feeding tube.. you can proceed slowly until you reach the gut and feel a slight resistence. (a transverse piece of rigid airline tubing can be used as a bite stick to prevent small toothy fishes from closing down on the soft tubing).

It's quite easy after you have been shown in person.l It at all possible, do see if a local very works with aquatics. The office visit fee will be well worth the lesson.

Professionals (and folks with access to hospital supplies ;)) often use a tiny catheter made for infants to force feed small fishes - same principal of soft tubing for gavage feeding.

If there are further questions on forced/gavage feeding, let's please make a new thread for the benefit of others and folks that search the archives in the future.

[Bill Shultz]

Another quick issue with the DSB bucket that I wanted to address for anyone who is thinking of creating a DSB using an ordinary 5 gal bucket:

For my bulkheads I just used the ordinary kind that you could buy for a few bucks at the local ACE hardware. My return bulkhead (which is mounted on the side of bucket) is of the standard variety -- and is not designed for a curved surface. I found that the walls of the bucket are flexable and thin enough that if you just tighten the bulkhead adequately, then it will seal even this slightly curved surface just fine.

Nothing fancy needed.

[Earls]

I just read all this and I am very interested. Two questions, what kind of sand would I use and how much water flow. I am having trouble with nitrates and nothing else seems to be working. Did anyone ever take Anthony up on doing a test? Thanks

[Bill Shultz]

Which regard to the style of buckets to use:

I say just use the buckets that the salt is sold in.

Anyone reading this thread with an interest in battleing high nitrates is probably no stranger to large, frequent water changes -- and thus having to buy lots of salt.

[rolinjs]

What if you put sulphur beads at the bottom of the bucket and filled the rest with aragonite. My thinking is that the bottom of the bucket is very anoxic, which is a good environment for the sulphur eating bacteria. The low pH would be neutralized with the aragonite.
Would this work?

[Awright]

I have been toying with the idea to install a DSB bucket. So I did.
Here are a few pics of the set-up. My nitrates were over 50ppm using Salifert test kit.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture703.jpg

I used 3/4" uniseals on the lid & side of a 6.5 gallons Kent sea salt bucket.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture704.jpg

Used a MJ1000 as the feed pump.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture705.jpg

Installed.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture706.jpg

[SRVDVM]

I like the idea of using aragonite sand in the bucket for buffering. 1) My question is do you need to use aragonite if you have a Ca reactor?
2) Since the pH of the water running through the bucket is basic (ph 8.3 +/-), I do not think any more Ca would leach out. Is this correct
3) what types of pumps are people using to run the water through? Would a simple power head work or is there a better suggestion?

Thanks

[Anthony Calfo]

1) as per earlier in the thread - another advantage of aragonite is its shape - oolitic (round/spheres) versus the angular shpaes of silica/sharp sand. The latter being a disadvantage as it packs tighter. Can be overcome... and no, aragonite is not needed. But I'd say its better on merit of shape if none other.

2)Nope... not correct. Aragonite dissolves at a much higher pH than Calcite. As such... a day time pH of 8.4 means a likely night time drop that will still dissolve aragonite slowly.

3)Hmmm... it's sounding like you really did not read the thread, my friend and are asking repeated question. It's a good thread if I may say so... truly worth the time to read. Please respect our time as well ;) In answer to your question, though... yes - a simple powerhead is fine. Discussions about flow to guide you on precise pump size can be found... er, well. You know :D

[rolinjs]

What would be better at stabalizing pH? DSB bucket or macro algea in the sump. I am having a pH problem on my reef tank (it is dropping to 7.7 at night. I was thinking of using macro to offset this drop in pH. After reading about the DSB bucket it sounds like it could keep pH up.

[Anthony Calfo]

wow... a pH of 7.7 is scary if that is an accurate reading.

You should first figure out what the fundamental cause is. Thats too severe, frankly.

I'll guess for starters that you are using raw RO or DI water without aertaing or buffering it before use as evap top off or salting? (see threads on this in my forum archives)

Or... your source water otherwise (tap water, eg) is naturally soft/lacking in mineral hardess.

Yes... please do some keyword searches for this topic in other threads/forums my friend (to keep this thread tidy).

In answer to your question... both reverse daylight photoperiods over macroalgae and aragonite DSB buckets will offer some pH stabilization... but not enough to bring you from 7.7 back to a healthy 8.4-8.6. You've got bigger issues here.

[capt. insano]

correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't plant respiration (including macro algae) create carbon dioxide, which is acidic? Macros don't buffer your water at all.....rather having your refugium on a reverse lighting cycle from your display tank helps to stabilize your pH

[rolinjs]

I believe that plants, including most thngs that use photosynthesis as energy, use CO2. This is why when lights are on during the day, the pH tends to go up. At night when lights are off, there is abundent CO2, which tends to lower pH.

[Anthony Calfo]

respiration at night of photsynthetic organisms (including zooxanthellae, diatoms, macroalgae, corallines, etc)

[SRVDVM]

What, if any, are the potential problems of running a calcium reactor and using aragonite in a 5 ga DSB bucket?

If there are potential problems, how can they be prevented
Thanks

[Anthony Calfo]

I really cannot see any common or uncommon conflict between the DSB bucket with aragonite and a prooperly running/tuned calcium reacter.

[Bill Shultz]

After week one, I'm still holding my nitrates at around 80 ppm.

For the people that did see the dramatic drop using this DSB method. . . How many weeks did it take on average for the nitrates to at least begin to trend down?

In other words, when should I be concerned that my setup is either improper and or insufficient for my tank/bioload, thus requiring a somewhat larger DSB?

Thanks all.

--Bill

[Jhaas]

Do you think that this dsb in a bucket would be able to take care of the nitrate produced from a wet/dry? Thus being able to utilize its ability to nitrify ammonia?

[laszlo]

I would assume that the DSB bucket would lower the nitrates produced by the wet/dry. I'm no professional, but nitrates are in the water column after the nitrogen cycle the wet/dry facilitates, and the DSB would be facilitating the NNR.

[jamal-188]

Originally posted by Jhaas
Do you think that this dsb in a bucket would be able to take care of the nitrate produced from a wet/dry? Thus being able to utilize its ability to nitrify ammonia?

I think it would really depend on your wet/dry setup. I"m assuming you are using bioballs? I have used bioballs in a few systems different ways with varying amounts of success.

I used them on a 110g reef when I first started in the hobby along with a 6" DSB for about a year and never had a problem. I always wondering why people trashed them, my nitrates were always less than 5. I had a few layers of mechanical filtration above them a a decent amount of LR. I gradually removed them as I purchased more and more LR.

I later used them in a 72 predator tank with terrible resutls. I did not have enough LR and a poor skimmer. Nitrates were always 80+ I think too much detrius and uneaten food found it's way on the bioballs. I did constant water changes, vaccumed the tank, tried to introduce cleanup crews etc... no success. I eventually tore the tank down after loosing the fish gradually.

I also used some in a 44g reef tank 2-3" sandbed. I started with a ton of them and gradually removed some as I added LR. I still have about 1/3 the original amount. I have not checked nitrates lately but they are always less than 5.

I guess what I"m trying to say is that I don't think bioballs necessarily produce high nitrate levels if used aproporiately. I would use them again only if I did not have enough LR BUT had a good skimmer and a DSB somewhere in the system and a fuge if possible.

I have also tried tricks such as rinsiing roughly 1/4 the bioballs every month to clean some detrius off them. Do not rinse all at once or you may see a spike in amonia/nitrite.

[Jhaas]

I’m just curious on the actual amount of nitrate reduction the DSBB can cover, tacking in to consideration depth/diameter/water flow/types of sand used all that good stuff. And also, Will the DSBB work also for fresh water?

[capt. insano]

jhaas

He talks about a 55 gallon aquarium being filled with sand and being used like a dsbb lower the nitrates considerably on a 2000 gallon system

Dr. Ron suggests more than 5" of sand depth, oolitic aragonite being the best choice of sand

[daddypugg]

OK awesome idea!!! a question though, I am getting ready to combine two tanks into one.

Can I use sand from one of the established tanks?

[mswt5]

I would think you would want to start out with new clean sand for this. The point behind the quick flow on top of the sand is to keep stuff from getting caught in it and becoming a nutrient sink. If your starting with dirty sand that kind of defeats the purpose...
I guess it would depend on how dirty your sand is?

[captbunzo]

You might be able to avoid that problem if you rinsed the sand really well. On the other hand, I am not sure that it really matters that much...

[daddypugg]

Ok - I was thinking more along the lines of the top few inches for the life that is there.

[aiannar974]

I have read about DSB crashing. I am lucky so far, I have not seen this. Because this is such an inexpensive way to go, it made me think that it might be a good idea to hook 4 of these together (maybe even smaller buckets) in a many that one could be replaced every 6 month with a new bucket. This would give a full rotation every 2 years, at any given time 75% fully active DBS system and the ability to prevent the bed from overloading and crashing.

Anthony

[Bill Shultz]

Sounds like a very good idea. I can't think of any drawbacks, but I'm not sure if it's totally necessary. The remote DSB's don't seem to suffer from the "crashes" that are described for tank DSBs probably because of the way they are designed : mechanicial prefiltration and or fast flow to prevent detritis from settling down onto the bed.

[aiannar974]

Is this only true that remote mega deep DSB like the ones in buckets will not crash or true for the ones in refugiums or with only 5-6 inches of sand also?

What is the longest anyone has been running a DSB bucket?

Anthony

[Bill Shultz]

I can't speak as someone having a long term DSB Bucket, however I believe that DSBs in refugiums and those with lesser depths would be less likely to "crash" if they are designed with the considerations others in this post have described.

Many people believe that a properly maintained DSB is not prone to "crashing" ever. There is much debate over the whole crash issue as I'm sure you are well aware, but when something does go wrong, there is usually a good explaination for it -- it is very rarely a mystery. Good explainations being: huge bioloads, poor circulation, large amounts of detritis packing the DSB, infrequent water changes, the list goes on and on.

[backlash]

Excellent read!
Thanks to all for experiences and suggestions!

[samtheman]

I think you should consider the DSB Bucket, not a sandbed at all, but a denitrater. You are providing anarobic area and not really setting up a sand bed and fauna. We should call this the Calfo Bucket Denitrator so we won't be making comparisons to Deep Sand Beds and the different requirements of each.

[captbunzo]

Not to detract from the wonder of Calfo (jk, Anthony...), but I would recommend the name "Remote Deep Sand Bed" - RDSB. I suspect from what we see of Anthony here, he doesn't feel the need to have things named after him. ;)

[samtheman]

My point is that it really isn't a DSB at all!

[Anthony Calfo]

good heaven's, yes... thank you :p

I spent a good year in lectures/hobby clubs trying to break folks from calling the CLM (closed loop manifold) the "Calfo manifold" :D

Since DSBs in displays most only are any good at denitrifying (such poor biodiversity otherwise) and the bucket is a means of removing the bed to a remote location to spare need for diatom/algae controlling creatures when the sand is illuminated, etc... the moniker "RDSB" seems as good as any name. It is deep sand... it is remote... and it will do about as much or as little as the same bed in a display that is fairly called a "DSB"

[Bill Shultz]

Now that everybody has decided on an appropriate name, Anthony needs to put a link to this thread on the RC homepage.

This absolutely needs to be part of the required info for beginners. (maybe a sublink under the "So you want to start a marine tank. . . ")

[captbunzo]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
good heaven's, yes... thank you :p

I spent a good year in lectures/hobby clubs trying to break folks from calling the CLM (closed loop manifold) the "Calfo manifold" :D

Hehe. I THOUGHT that would be your response. I suspect that you aren't too thrilled with Horizontal Overflows being called Calfo Overflows?

Anyhow, you're going to be speaking at a event last Saturday of January 2006 in Dallas called Next Wave. I'll have to come up to you and ask you to tell me about Calfo Refugiums, or some such... ;)

[Anthony Calfo]

it is, of course, flattering... but they are truly not unique concepts. At best I get credit for popularizing some such (obvious) things :p

I am always very happy though to be a mouthpiece for fellow aquarists to benefit from my work/history, experience and travels :)

See you in the great state of Texas soon!

Anth-

[dastratt]

OK here is another question. I have no room for an overflow and was considering setting up a DSB in a closed container. The problem is with the container closed how can I tell if the flow is right?

I have a canister Filstar XP2 and it would be very convenient to just plumb it into the return line if the flow rate was right. Or just set up another CL with a new pump and a ball valve to adjust.

Also I was considering using a water container for this purpose since the only space I have is narrow (where I store a h20 container right now). But how do I know if I have not enough flow or too much.

[aiannar974]

I do not think a filter canister will work for a DSB. The reason is it is designed to have flow to go through it and some media for filtration, in this case it would be sand. This means the would be no extremely low flow area for anaerobic denitrification.

Anthony

[dastratt]

Sorry just to clarify the CL would include a canister AND a separate "DSB in a drum" as Mr. Calfo has advocated on this thread.

Or just two separate CL (the existing canister on a CL and a new one with the DDSB)

[Anthony Calfo]

FWIW... I would not go through the effort of converting a canister for any such use for any aquarium. It's too small to be effective on most aquariums, and simply not needed on aquariums small enough (where moderate water changes alone will reduce nitrate and have many more benefits).

But for the purpose of mental excercise and to answer your question (how do you know too much or not enough flow), its a simple matter of comparing the incurrent and effluent waters. If nitrates are lower on the effluent, then its working obviously (flow is slow enough). But if there are nitrites present in the effluent, then your flow is too fast (nitrification instead of NNR is occuring).

[delphinus]

Is there any reason a person couldn't (or rather, "shouldn't") plant mangroves in one of these?

[Awright]

I would like to say THANK YOU! Mr. Calfo. I was so frustrated with the GHA, I was almost ready to throw in the towel (not really). I was pretty well disgusted with the lack of progress.
Anthony,
This thread & Refugium tips (formerly "flow rate thorugh a refugium") & Protein Skimmer Production/Improvements had turned my tank around 180*. Thank you, thank you , thank you.

Just a quick update, Nitrates have came down considerably.
Here is a couple of pic from a month ago;
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture018.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture025.jpg

And here about one month later;
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture7471.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture745.jpg

[Anthony Calfo]

fabulous, Awright! Just fabulous to hear. I am very happy for you, and grateful you took the time to share your progress. It is inspiring and redeeming for folks like me/us to hear that take the time to mentor fellow hobbyists for exactly this reason: so you stay in the hobby and succeed. Thank you :)

delphinus - no problem at all on the mangroves in the short to medium term (simply until they outgrow the bucket... 3 years or so). The deep anoxic sand will be quite natural for them.

[delphinus]

Awright, let me just say, that is an AMAZING turnaround for one month's time.

Anthony, thanks for the mangrove tip. Will try that then. I've been growing 5 mangroves from pods since '02. They've grown insignificantly in this time (5 leaves each maybe? Barely just twigs) so I'm tempted to try something different for them in the hopes of encouraging some growth out of them. I don't want any NNR out of the mangroves themselves, I just like them for the novelty, they're just "kewl".

[NexDog]

Great thread. :)

So how big a bucket will I need for a 450g system. :)

[kimoyo]

Awright - that is awesome.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6228003#post6228003 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Awright
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b391/WrightAndrew/Picture7471.jpg
What is that tang under your hippo?

[captbunzo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6229260#post6229260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NexDog
So how big a bucket will I need for a 450g system. :)

Very amusing. :)

On a serious note, however, I would recommend you daisy chain a couple of buckets together. IMHO, there is no significant benefit to making this large and unweildly. After all, a 5 gallon bucket O' sand is going to be heavy enough as it is.

I'd add them one at a time, giving the system a little time in between each just to see what kind of a total effect each is having. My guess is that 2-4 is going to be your range.

(Btw, happy birthday to me! :) )

[Marcelog]

Happy Bday Cap'n!

I'm plumbing my RDSB today. I'll be sure to update everyone on it's effectiveness.

Marcelo -

[Awright]

[iWhat is that tang under your hippo? [/B]
It is a Lavender or sometimes referred to a fork tail Tang

[Awright]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6229260#post6229260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NexDog
Great thread. :)

So how big a bucket will I need for a 450g system. :)
I would think a 150g should do it.;)

[Anthony Calfo]

two words: garbage can DSB

er... two words and an abbreviation, that is. :)

Scale it up folks... kitchen garbage can, trash can, 55 gall food barrel (you can get these for free or next to nothing from the wholesale restaurant district in your home town...and/or local repackaging plant for pickles, olives, pepper rings, etc. Cheeeeeeap.)

If you have a tank big enough to need one of these super-sized DSBs, then you have the space for it. Basement, filter room, etc. Tall profile lets them stand right next to the sump, refugium etc and run on a quiet little loop of its own to and from any of the downstream staging tanks (again... refugium, prop tank, sump, etc.). Feed it with a small pump or a bleeder line of the sump return manifold.

[Anthony Calfo]

Re: XL DSB buckets

reminder... for large systems, please recall (from my very first post of this thread) the mention of a 55gall tank filled with sand and used for this purpose on a 2K gall LFS system. Even with such a heavy bioload, it was staggeringly effective.

The point: larger vessels up to a 55 gall trash can or food grade plastic barrel can easily handle most any home aquarium. Smaller (20-30 gall kitchen sizes) likely are enough for most XL home displays.

[zombiereef]

would the same principle pertain to freshwater tanks too?

[Herpervet]

I'm sure that you could do the same thing for african cichlids but unless you are doing some fancy water conditioning (i.e. rift lake salt mixes etc.) why bother? I would simply do 30% water changes weekly or every 2 weeks and nitrate shouldn't be an issue at all.

In addition you will note dramatic improvement in growth, color, breeding and overall health with this sort of regimen.

Of course I live in west texas where our water is very hard and perfect for most rift lake species.

[NexDog]

I think my tank room is maxed out on space. Hopefully I won't have a big problem with nitrates on the new tank though.

[Dag]

Anthony,

Do you care to comment on the theory of why the remote DSB works. Some have argued that it can't work because in order for the DSB to work, water has to move through it, and for water to move through it, critters have to live in the DSB, and for the critters to live they have to fed, and not enough food gets to the DSB unless you specifically feed it, and feeding a DSB is adding unnecessary pollution.

Experience often trumps theory, but wondering if you had a countertheory, or have an opinion as to what is the weak link in the foregoing chain of reasoning.

[Anthony Calfo]

I'm not a sedimentologist... nor the type of aquarist that enjoys speaking out of my realm of education or experience.

But the theory that macro-organisms are required to facilitate adequate NNR to make a remote DSB work is ludicrous.

To be clear here.... we are talking about about a remote DSB processing nitrates already in the water (solution)... not solid matter.

For the solid matter instead, I would agree with the DSB critics that you DO NOT want to allow much or any (excess) solid matter infiltrate the media. Rather... it is best always (as per my endless preaching) to export them ASAP before they become nitrified via aggressive skimming and by strong water flow (improving feeding opportunities of filter feeders on solids by the extended time in suspension for particulates).

I'd really like to see the critics just try the ding dang thing before they go off mentally masturbating on theories of why it could not work (even though it clearly does).

And this is such a cheap and low risk application. Why not just try it before complaining? Some people :p

Experience trumps theory here, as you say my friend.

[NexDog]

I think what I'd do if (and when) I had the space is use my skimmer pump as the return pump and then feed the overflows directly into the skimmer. Then I'd use gravity to pass the water (skimmer output) over the RDSB and then into the sump.

Only problem is setting the skimmer up a bit higher than the sump so gravity can do it's part. What say you, Anthony?

[trmiv]

I'm getting ready to set one of these up on my new 90g. What I can't decide is, what to do with the sand in the tank? I was going to do a DSB in the tank, but that seems superfluous with this remote DSB. I can't stand the look of barebottom, so I will have sand. Should I stick with like 1" or under of fine sand, or go with coarser sand that I can vacuum regularly. The sand will obviously just be for looks since the DSB bucket will be handling the denitrification chores. I just don't want the sand in the tank to become a problem.

[foxthorn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6234691#post6234691 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthony Calfo
...
To be clear here.... we are talking about about a remote DSB processing nitrates already in the water (solution)... not solid matter....


Anthony or anyone else for that mater.... Help a guy out here and fill me in on 'how' exactly does passing a strong flow of water over top of sand remove the nitrates? And why is any particular depth of the sand important? Sorry if this seems like a beginner type question - and I'd imagine there is must be some science behind it... but I got to know :cool:

TIA

[captbunzo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6237206#post6237206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by trmiv
I'm getting ready to set one of these up on my new 90g. What I can't decide is, what to do with the sand in the tank? I was going to do a DSB in the tank, but that seems superfluous with this remote DSB. I can't stand the look of barebottom, so I will have sand. Should I stick with like 1" or under of fine sand, or go with coarser sand that I can vacuum regularly. The sand will obviously just be for looks since the DSB bucket will be handling the denitrification chores. I just don't want the sand in the tank to become a problem.

I'll give you my opinion, for what it is or is not worth.

First, your concern regarding sand (IMHO) is less about how much, and more about grain size and how you are going to keep detritus from settling. Two easy answers:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A. Small Grain
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;B. Keep up the flow.

And so this seems to be relatively independent of the amount of sand you put in the tank. So, personally, I would focus on the magic 30-40x diffused flow.

And then, based on budget, I would put 3-4 inches of sugar sized sand. You can go with less. For ME, that is an aesthetic thing, and about providing a place for critters to live in the display tank sand, sand for a goby, or whatever else you decide to go with.

Just my two cents!

[trmiv]

If I put 3-4" in the display, then I'm suddenly in DSB territory, and I would have to deal with the potential problems that brings.

[Anthony Calfo]

display DSBs are generally hard for most folks to finesse. The methodology is not flawed... just the application by most folks. That is to say... most aquarists build their rock structures against one or more sides of the aquarium (severaly handicapping water flow and leading to excess accumulation of solids/sinking in the DSB in time. Most aquarists also stock too many fishes... too early and/or over feed them... and most aquariums lack enough flow or enough of the right kind of flow. and have too many dead spots instead. All of theses things and more lead to the avoidable pollution of a substrate (regardaless of depth or grain size). Yet the reality of it is that most folks are NOT cut out for a display DSB. So as much as I like using them, I rarely recommend them or any but the most well-read/experienced/competant aquarists.

So... we have the RDSB option.

As for how it works... I'm really not sure what more there is to say. It is staggeringly simple as Paul has pointed out.

Focus on grain size (fine and small to prevent easy penetration of solids into tyhe bed) and maintain enough water flow to do the same. Nitrates already in solution are utilized by denitrifying faculties in a way similar, you might say, to the way our corals draw various dissolved elememts from the water (calcium, ammonia, etc from solution).

I can't say it any better/clearer. It really is that simple and cheap to do. Not rocket science here.

To alleve your dounts/fears... you might even take a temporary RDSM bucket and set it up in front of your aquarium on the floor being fed and returning on a short loop to/from your sump. Let it sit there for a month and watch your nitrates go down. If they do... then considcer a permenant installation (where/how). If it doesn't... then contemplate why (come back and ask detailed questions based on real experience and a real application) or... you can just take it off and think I'm full of it ;) Either way it will only cost you less than $20 in materials likely. A small investment for a potentially significant return (nitrate reduction... less water changes for not having high(er) nitrates... better aquarium health, perhaps less nuisance algae and time saved for not manually treating it, etc.). Lord knows you've/we've wasted far more money on other things... like killing fishes or corals because you don't have a QT tank ;)

[trmiv]

Oh I have no problem with the RDSB, that is going on my tank for sure. I'm sold on the concept.

What I'm trying to decide is since I'll having the RDSB taking care of my denitrification issues, I won't have to depend on a tank DSB for that. So where do I go with sand in the display? A short coarse sand bed that can be vacummed regularly? Short fine sand bed and disturb it regularly? Barebottom?

[Anthony Calfo]

I would suggest minimal sand in the display for the low-maintenance option and safe bet, indeed. Larger grains for high water flow tanks... finer sands if you can (using a CLM or like diffused water flow versus streamers or the like). Whichever you choose... keep it well under 1" depth IMO :)

[trmiv]

Thanks, sounds good. I'll probably go with something like the CaribSea Bermuda Pink Reef Sand. It's 2-4mm, which is a nice larger size. For some reason I do like the look of tanks with the larger sand, that has slightly different colors in the grains.

[nickyblase]

After reading all this, I've decided I'm going to do one, but need some design advice, as my space is a little limited.

I would like to put this in my stand under my 38G, but the stand of course isn't huge. What I was thinking I would do is put in a 5 gallon salt bucket as the first to receive the h20 from the display with the skimmer in it to grab as much solid as possible, then have the side of the 5g drilled and a tube gravity feeding h20 into a 2g bucket filled within a few inches of the top with sand, and then (if I've got enough room), have that gravity feed into a small refugium and up into the tank again.

Will this work? As I look at one of my 2 gallon buckets that I use for water changes on my nano, It's about 10" tall by 9" in diameter.

If this isn't enough to support a fairly heavily stocked reef tank, I could probably fit 2 5 gallon salt buckets inside the stand, but would then have to find a way to combine the sump bucket as a sump/skimmer holder, and somehow put a small fuge in it.

Does anyone have any ideas?

[Spuds725]

A picture of your buckets inside the stand (without plumbing) might help see this (your plan). It sounds like it would work but you obviously need enough room to service your skimmer-- might be a problem if that bucket is elevated.

Also, any considering using buckets for sumps, RDSBs, etc-- the square plastic kitty litter container buckets they sell will more then likely help you utilize space better then traditional round buckets..

This is a shorter one, but they do have taller ones

http://www.mycatranch.com/petfood/tidycatlitter.jpg

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6234039#post6234039 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dag
Anthony,

Do you care to comment on the theory of why the remote DSB works. Some have argued that it can't work because in order for the DSB to work, water has to move through it, and for water to move through it, critters have to live in the DSB, and for the critters to live they have to fed, and not enough food gets to the DSB unless you specifically feed it, and feeding a DSB is adding unnecessary pollution.

Experience often trumps theory, but wondering if you had a countertheory, or have an opinion as to what is the weak link in the foregoing chain of reasoning.

I haven't used this method yet but I might as I feel like I am starving my fish all the time so could increase my feeding level a bit....

Regarding how it works I think it might just be an issue of nitrate concentrations in the water at the top and bottom of the sandbed.... let me walk you through my reasoning-- (I majored in Chemistry in college and it kind of goes along with thermodynamic principles--finally a use for that awful Physical Chemistry class I had to take).....Realize this is mainly me just postulating and making assumptions on how it might work-- I have no direct experience with this method or research on how it actually works...

I'm assuming you will agree that the sand at the bottom of the bed is wet so the water has penetrated to the bottom.... now in relationship to the sand grains, the water and nitrate molecules are easily much smaller then the smallest of the sand grains so it should not be an issue for them to be able to move down and around the grains-- now we get to the issue of how do the nitrates penetrate if the water isn't moving down through the sand bed....

IMO its simply being diluted from a region of higher nitrate concentration to lower.... initially when the sand bed is added, the water in the sand bed will contain nitrates.... as DE-nitrifying bacteria form and start consuming the nitrates the concentration of nitrate in the water at the bottom will decrease -- this difference in concentration is what would be driving the nitrates through the sand bed--

The second law of thermodynamics states is kind of set of principles but is pretty well reflected by

"The most concise statement of the second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value."

This is from this website-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics --

You should try to think of Entropy as disorder-- this is what drives dilution in liquids and gasses-- think of it as an odor or aroma that spreads around a room lacking circulation-- thermodynamic processes a driven by increasing disorder since this is the lowest energy state--- dilution occurs because of this...

the same applies to liquids... put anything that dissolves in water and even without circulation, the concentration of that substance will eventually equalize throughout the volume of liquid, barring any external force..

Now since the nitrate is being consumed in the sand bed, the naturual tendency would be for more nitrates to move into the sand bed and further be consumed as this lowers the energy state of the nitrates in the water.... so the nitrates are continually pulled into the sandbed as they are consumed...

I hope this makes sense to those that read it...

once again... this is mainly just my thoughts on the subject and not based on any actual experiments or research....

and as Anthony pointed out... it works, how doesn't really matter...

[Fmellish]

I have a fairly large refugium in the middle of my 30 gallon sump. I have a 120 gallon tank with about 500 gph running through my sump. Can I do a remote deep sand bed in my refuge?

i'd much rather have a DSB in my refuge, and then a shallow sand bed in my display.

This may have already been covered. Thanks for any response.

Josh

[nickyblase]

would one of those kitty litter buckets be big enough for a dsb on a 38? If so, I'll use one of those inside a larger rubbermaid for a sump, and then figure something out for a refugium - maybe a hob if I can't fit one inside the stand.

[foxthorn]

Spuds.... Thank you for posting that reasoning and your thoughts -- you've really gave me something to think about and further research. Do you have any thoughts on how the depth of the sand bed relates? Does a deeper sand bed 'draw' the nitrates faster or would a somewhat deep bed that has more surface area 'draw' more nitrates ??

[Spuds725]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6244369#post6244369 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by foxthorn
Spuds.... Thank you for posting that reasoning and your thoughts -- you've really gave me something to think about and further research. Do you have any thoughts on how the depth of the sand bed relates? Does a deeper sand bed 'draw' the nitrates faster or would a somewhat deep bed that has more surface area 'draw' more nitrates ??

IMO-- The depth should not matter as much as its ability to "host" denitrifying bacteria and the overall denitrifying bacteria population of the DSB-- the nitrate concentration should decrease down to zero as you go deeper and deeper into the sand bed... as long as you reach zero (at some point above the bottom of the sand bed)... a zero concentration of nitrate (at some point in the sand bed) should be all that is required to maximize the rate at which the nitrate in the water column difuses into the sand bed-- the sand grain size and type still might play a role in the rate-- really the only way to check this would be to set up some tests of different identical remote DSBs and start varying things between them (types and sizes of grains, water flow, even temperature) and start measuring nitrate concentrations at different depths of each bed to see the differences...

The area of the sand bed should affect the ability and the rate of the nitrate to penetrate just because there should be more area for the nitrate to diffuse into (a larger area should be able to accept more nitrate)-- this should facilitate the rate of diffusion into the bed

I really don't have enough knowledge of what actually occurs in the bed to have an opinion on what might affect this.... the purpose of my post above was to try and provide some logical explanation of what is occuring and what drives the movement of nitrate into the sand bed.... most of us have trouble seing these things on the sub-microscopic level...

once again, all this is not based on any actual experience, reading, or research... this is more of me postulating on what should be occuring based on my understanding of physics and chemistry when applied to this application.... its rare you actually can apply some of these principles to real life situations

would one of those kitty litter buckets be big enough for a dsb on a 38? If so, I'll use one of those inside a larger rubbermaid for a sump, and then figure something out for a refugium - maybe a hob if I can't fit one inside the stand.

IMO yes-- they are about the same size as a 5 gallon bucket, just better shaped for use under a cabinet (it should hold a larger volume for a given height and width)--- I use one of these buckets to transport water from my RO/DI container to my tank and the small one I use should hold about 5 gallons-- 2 1/2 gallons fills it about 1/2 way-- and it seems plenty strong for this use.

[A.G]

Its been a while since I have posted anything. Well, just to let you guys know I have actually stopped measuring No3 since the test kit I use cant detct it . I have checked the DSB and it seems clean with no dirts. Why am I doing water changes again ;) ?:rollface:

A.G

[Anthony Calfo]

The update is very much appreciated my friend! Thank you. Indeed, it sounds like its working as it is intended... with fine sand and adequate water flow, solids do not penetrate/accumulate and the NO3 from nitrification in the system is utilized/reduced as expected

As for the water changes (I know you were joking... but I'll point out here for the newbies), we continue to do them because there are numerous known and unknown accumulating elements to degrading/aging water that must be diluted which have little to nothing to do with the DSB bucket processes.

Thanks again for the fab news AG! :)

[nyvp]

quick question for 700g tank. Do i want depth or length. what I am asking is is it better to go with a 55g trash can or 55g tank?

[Anthony Calfo]

either will work, but I'll suggest the length instead.

[Teremei]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6238541#post6238541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by trmiv
Thanks, sounds good. I'll probably go with something like the CaribSea Bermuda Pink Reef Sand. It's 2-4mm, which is a nice larger size. For some reason I do like the look of tanks with the larger sand, that has slightly different colors in the grains.

I'm going with something simular to that too. I reccomend 1" too, that way any niusance areas can be completely replaced easily. And you can still have snails and crabs. So. I just found out about this method and will consider using this under my tank. Can someone please draw me a mental picture of how to set this up/what equipment I will need? (sorry I did not read all 10 pages)

[Anthony Calfo]

"Can someone please draw me a mental picture of how to set this up/what equipment I will need? (sorry I did not read all 10 pages)"

Teremei... I promise you that your aquarium, livestock and education in this hobby you will get by being resourceful and not asking to be spoon-fed are well worth the time taken to read the free content assembled here for those very purposes (improving you and the health of your livestock).

It would also be respectful to us and our our time if you'd kindly just take the time to read it.

I do appreciate your honestly in saying you did not read the thread. Please do understand that I am more interested helping you be a better aquarist if nothing else by making the effort to use the tremendous wealth of knowlege that is in this free content archive that we call Reef Central.

You will answer your questions and learn so much more in the process for forming such (good) habits.

[Fish'InMN]

First off, I just finished all 10 pages, and wow that's a read. It reads like you guys have pretty much hit the jackpot for removing nitrate. This is especially nice to see, since I'm starting plans for a 30g right now that had originally included a 10g sump/refugium. Now, you've got me thinking about a RDSB, and how I can turn that 10g into one. I assume I'd have to make it water-tight, to turn it into a part of a closed loop?

Great thread folks, I hope you don't mind the newbie asking Qs.

[Anthony Calfo]

all good Fish'InMN :)

And welcome to RC! :D :) :D

As for your 10 gall sump plan... you might just take a small bucket next to the sump and prop it up (with a hole drilled at the top for the overflow) to be slightly above the height of the sump. This way, you do not have to handicap refugium or sump-proper space.

Power it with a small powerhead in the sump that feeds this RDSB on its own little loop.

[Teremei]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6274268#post6274268 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthony Calfo
"Can someone please draw me a mental picture of how to set this up/what equipment I will need? (sorry I did not read all 10 pages)"

Teremei... I promise you that your aquarium, livestock and education in this hobby you will get by being resourceful and not asking to be spoon-fed are well worth the time taken to read the free content assembled here for those very purposes (improving you and the health of your livestock).

It would also be respectful to us and our our time if you'd kindly just take the time to read it.

I do appreciate your honestly in saying you did not read the thread. Please do understand that I am more interested helping you be a better aquarist if nothing else by making the effort to use the tremendous wealth of knowlege that is in this free content archive that we call Reef Central.

You will answer your questions and learn so much more in the process for forming such (good) habits.

Anthony, no offense taken. I have had a reef tank up and going for near a year now. I understand the process of denitrification, all I am asking is what pumps, and or products I will need to connect this to my new tank.

But your right, I should probably read the whole thread. I stopped at page 2. I fully understand the concept, but I have yet to see a link to a diagram. All I've read so far is to make water move briskly over a DSB in a bucket. Nobody had mentioned what sort of pumps they were using (atleast up to page 2)

I am currently planning a 90 gallon. Luckily for me I have room for it and I can slowly set it up while still keeping my 55 running. The first thing I am going to do is find the perfect sand (maybe just up to 1 inch). The mistake I made with my first tank was adding 5" of gravel (this is a terrible newbie mistake that I will not repeat).

I will bring up this remote sand bed up to my custom sump maker, and make this a part of my sump when I do ditch the wet/dry my 90 comes with.

[Fish'InMN]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6274381#post6274381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthony Calfo
all good Fish'InMN :)

And welcome to RC! :D :) :D

As for your 10 gall sump plan... you might just take a small bucket next to the sump and prop it up (with a hole drilled at the top for the overflow) to be slightly above the height of the sump. This way, you do not have to handicap refugium or sump-proper space.

Power it with a small powerhead in the sump that feeds this RDSB on its own little loop.

Ah, I see. I will have to figure out what bucket size will fit, but it sounds like a 5gal is what everyone is using. I don't have any use for Kitty Litter, but maybe that type of bucket will work best. :p

Thanks a bunch for the ideas folks, I'm sure I'll be back with more questions sometime!

Regards,
Marty

[AnnArborBuck]

Wasn't there an article in one of the recent Reef Magazines (hard copy, not Reef Central's, it's a yearly mag) that talked about DSBs. In particular, they discussed a new system that was being tried that that implemented a remote deep sand bed with a a plenum. In this setup, the author flowed the water through the plenum and then the water would be forced to flow up though the sand. He used red dye to track flow of water through the sand to see the movement of the water. From what I remember the experiments went pretty well.

I actually like this idea better because then you don't have to worry about creating a plenum, solids in the plenum, etc.

Diffusion at it's greatest, so simple, yet so powerfull.