"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[Triggerfish]

good to hear...i sure do hope the copper i used (seacure) was as effective as the cupramine you used...again i haven't seen the ich during the 3 week treatment.
i just hope the 8 weeks fallow time kills it all off.

[cduran02]

Well, the way I see it, copper is copper, it comes in two forms chealated (sp?) and non-chealated. And they both work but at different concentrations. Differences between brands should be minimal, unless the brand is being dishonest about the concentration listed on the bottle.

[Triggerfish]

On a side note

in much need of a 2nd job,,i am starting at Petco tonight...
should be interesting when i get the 1st ich related customer inquiry.
the store does not stock supplies for either of the proven remedies:
copper
copper test kits
refractometers

at least i could tell them what to get and where to get them...:D

[markcasto]

My 4 green/blue chromis are not recovering they are looking very poorly and I think it would be kinder to put them in the freezer I have tried everything to cure them but nothing is working and they are too far gone now to save.I plan to empty all my QT tanks out and disinfect them all with bleach then just leave the 20 gallon and the ten ready for any emergencys and future stock.This whole process has been very demanding in time and fish loss but I sure as hell wont let anything in my main tank again with out QT for 6 weeks.Thanks for everthing guys and good luck triggerfish this is mark signing off for now.

[Triggerfish]

perhaps if the fish are no longer interested in feeding it could be the beginning of their demise,,,a quick method, if it comes down to it, is to put them in a small bowl add about 5 alkaseltzer tablets that will remove all the oxygen in seconds..

talk to ya later....

[seek19]

i've just finished the lowering of SG for the hypo but I'm feeling more and more convice that my fishes are actually infected with Amyloodinium ocellatum(Oodinium) instead of ich. I can't be sure but the spot doesn't looks like ich since it is not as big as the usual ich spots i saw and this time these spots have irregular shapes.

Few nights ago i lost the copperband butterfly. i saw it gasping for air at the surface and I put it in a freshwater bath with copper. That stopped the gasping but it died the other day.

Can hypo treat Amyloodinium ocellatum(Oodinium) too? Since it is also a parasite i'm hoping it can

[Triggerfish]

not to my knowledge no... Oodinium can kill fish within 3 days...ich can take weeks.

[AquAsylum]

We haven't had a whole lot of activity recently, just watching the QT time pass. Slowly. Unfortunately, bad news this morning. Before my update, just a few comments on what I've read over the last week or so.

MarkCasto- did you ever try Maroxy? It is the recommended treatment for a true fungal infection and I have used it in both FW and SW when a torn fin got a little bit fluffy.

Regarding the medicated food from Jungle Labs- I bought it when we started hypo. Fish wouldn't touch it. The pellets were too big, I think, plus they smelled like medicine. I think that is why the instructions say to feed it exclusively during the treatment. Given the option, the fish would probably always choose something else.

So, onto our new issue. I posted a separate thread in the forum, but everyone here is so smart I'm hoping you might have answers too!

This morning I noticed a fairly large bump on the side of our pink skunk clown. It seems dark underneath the skin/scales. I was actually able to do a search this morning and, pending more observation, I think it is most likely that this is a worm. I will try to keep an eye on him/her tonight to watch for stringy feces (how fun) or to see if the bump is opening up to release the bad guys. If no worm appears, any idea of what else might have caused this? In the back of my head, I know that it could be ich just having not surfaced yet, but it seems far too large to be ich.

I saw that the dog deworming medication is recommended, as is prazi. I can get prazi much more easily, so I am wondering if it is safe to treat the QT, or if I need to remove this poor little guy to an isolated tank. Also, how long is the treatment for such an infestation? I am already treating the tank with melafix and hypo, of course. About three weeks ago I ran a full treatment of paraguard. I really don't get how something new has managed to strike.

Thanks for any help...

[Triggerfish]

<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Quarantine Period = Round 2: Week 4

Quarantine is starting over after ich has showed up again on 8/11 after completion of 3 week copper treatment. 1 spot niger, 1-2 possible spots on Angel, spots damsels- hard to detect,,but i got to go with it's ich and they were not there before.

QT#1:55g
I am really having a difficult time here trying to eradicate this thing. i'm thinking that i may just have to treat each fish individually in a smaller tank.
the copper level must not have been maintained at the proper dosage for the full 3 weeks.
seachem test kit is very hard to tell what copper level is at. It's like i need to triple the dosage of seacure to get it to even register.
think i need to get the cupramine to test with the seachem kit i have..the seacure copper uses the fasTesT kit which only comes with 20 tests..and it's even more money,i mean that's ridiculous.

Problem 1: not using copper(SeaCure) manufacturers test kit(fasTesT).<hr>
QT#2:10g - 2 false percs
well did something really really stupid here. i moved a BTA attached to rock from main infected tank to the 10g so the clowns could host the BTA. OMG..what the hell was i thinking?
now it looks like the female clown has some spots..you got to be kidding me..
so i removed the BTA and am now treating that tank with copper. there's no end in sight here...<hr>

<font size=4><u>SUMMARY</font></u>
1. QT-1: 7 fish need to go through additional 6 weeks of quarantine - Will begin 2nd attempt with hypo, possibly may need to treat in separate systems. will remove the blenny and gramma that do not show signs of parasites and place in separate system.

2. QT-2: 2 clownfish- became infected from infested ich rock. undergoing copper treatment now.
6 weeks remaining.

3. Will get Cupramine and begin treating with that to measure with seachem copper test kit.

That's it,,this sucks and that's all i got to say..

[Triggerfish]

Laura - doesn't sound like ich--maybe Lee will help out in disease forum...

[AquAsylum]

Trigger. Man, that sucks. Just when you think you're out, it strikes again! Really sorry you're having to start over.

I am hoping that Lee or Steven Pro or one of the other "in the know" members will have a suggestion for me.

[plaz]

Triggerman,
Sorry to hear of your troubles as well. Get a RedSea Copper test to use with Cupramine (I know Seachem is the same brand - but the test stinks... at least for measuring cupramine). I also tried Salifert and it will not work at all with Cupramine. Save yourself the headaches and get the cheaper RedSea Copper test!

[seek19]

Does anyone knows a good way to differentiate Oodinium and ich, besides the freshwater & copper dipping method from ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site? Because my fishes seem to be in much stress already and I really don't want to put them through all the netting and dipping right now. Also, I just lack the skill to take nice clear fish tank photo like some of you can. So I can't provide some pic of the fish as Triggerfish suggusted long ago.

My fishes has shown sign of spots for almost 2 weeks already and only gotten worse today after I finally lowered the salinity to 13ppt. But they are still alive. Since Triggerfish mentioned that Oodinium kill fish within days and ich takes weeks, does that mean they are most likely infected with ich?

Also, when i say they gotten worse after the salinity was lowered to 13ppt(in 2 days time), i mean really worse. They seem to be suffering from a bit of fin rot and there are "lines" hanging, or should i say attached, to their body, much like their body is decaying and its striping out of their body. The "line" thing seem to be more of a problem with the two ocellaris clown and the saddled butterfly seems to suffer more with fin rot. What can these all mean?

[plaz]

Have you checked your ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?

[seek19]

Originally posted by plaz
Have you checked your ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?

ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0, nitrate 10
Should I go get some of those ammonia remover? is there a nitrite remover? in case its the next one up.

[plaz]

Sounds like you are getting ready to start a cycle. I would do a good water change and then try to get bio-spira or one of the products Mark used (in earlier posts) and establish good biological filtration. You will of course need alot of filter media (ceramic and/or wheel, sponge, etc.). How large is your quarantine tank?

[seek19]

Originally posted by plaz
How large is your quarantine tank?

I'm treating in my 45G Display tank. I removed all the live rocks and invert

But what about the weird things happening with my fishes' body. Anyone know if that are signs of other disease?

[luntiz]

Originally posted by Triggerfish
i could just leave everything alone and hope that they could just continue to fight "them" off until the cells age and die within 11 months..BUT,,that sort of blows

Interesting information, I've never came across that info in my research about Ich. Sorry if its been addressed in the past 21 pages but if any can fill me in with that info, it'll be great.

[Triggerfish]

seek19 - not sure what to tell you. if the fish are looking real bad and breathing heavy i would give a FW bath or dip..then treat the tank with hypo(only if you have a refractometer) or copper with test kit.



Originally posted by luntiz
if any can fill me in with that info, it'll be great.
link:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

quote:
"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora."

[plaz]

Seek19:
I don't know for sure either - but it sounds like water quality problems to me (especially the clowns). Ammonia and nitrites are really hard on some fish.

If you removed all the live rock, you need some kind of filter that has bacteria built up. The live rock was likely what was keeping everything in check (of course you had to remove it because it would have died and made matters worse - but you have to replace it with colonized filter media).

If there is any sand, etc. in the tank, die off may be making the cycle worse. Hopefully someone will chime in that knows more - but I would do some large water changes with matched salinity, temp and PH) to get the water quality back ASAP.

Good luck.

[luntiz]

Originally posted by Triggerfish
link:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

quote:
"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora."

Wow...very interesting

[Triggerfish]

yeah,,it seems to be interesting..needless to say,,i chose not to experiment to see if in fact that would work out.

[Triggerfish]

<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Quarantine Period = Round 2: Week 5
(This is about the time i gave up last time due to lack of patience..not this time..going the full 8 weeks.)

I lost my toby puffer the other day. was looking bad due to some secondary infection.

Fish will remain in quarantine for 6 weeks after the last spot has been noticed. ALL fish are inspected 2x/day.

QT#1:55g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
Preventive Treatment 2: hypo @1.008 4 weeks

Angel- 4.5 weeks remaining
LMB- 3 weeks
Gramma- 4 weeks
<hr>
QT#2:10g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks

2 False percs
5 weeks remaining

Note: the Cupramine is coming this week and i will resume the copper treatment in QT#2 with that product
<hr>
QT#3:5g
Niger trigger
2 yellow tail damsels

Treatment 1: Copper-3weeks
Treatment 2: hypo @ 1.008 4 weeks
6+ weeks left

[AquAsylum]

The skunk clown didn't make it. I treated with both praziquantel and furan-2. My hope right now is that it was bacterial and I just didn't catch it soon. I will lose it if the other fish catch it.

We are just past week 5 post-spots, and the display has been fallow for 8 weeks. I am gearing up for the slow salinity climb next weekend. Could someone point me in the right direction for the instructions regarding timing of the increases back up to 1.025? Then, I sincerely hope, it will just be a matter of patient observation until they can go "home." Odd to say that, since more than 1/2 of these fish are what brought the ich in and hadn't been in the display but 2 days before QT.

I have tried very hard to maintain 1.008 sg/ 11ppt salinity. I am, however, in south florida, and it tends to stay just barely under 1.010, despite adding 2 pitchers of fresh RO EVERY morning. I frequently calibrate my refractometer.

We've never really conquered the ammonia, but it is staying at .25. Not perfect, but the fish are managing. We are running 2 HOB filters with carbon and one of them also has a small wet/dry bio filter built in. pH has also been difficult, but I test daily and don't let it slide below 8.0.

Casualties:
Royal Gramma (didn't make it past the FW dip)
Orchid dottyback (lost in a rock during transport, never found it)
2 pink skunk clowns

Still going strong:
6 blue/green chromis
Rusty clown goby
Lawnmower blenny
Yellow watchman goby
Yellow Tang
Hippo Tang (who had the ich worst to begin with)
Solar/Painted Fairy Wrasse

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by AquAsylum
Could someone point me in the right direction for the instructions regarding timing of the increases back up to 1.025?

I have tried very hard to maintain 1.008 sg/ 11ppt salinity. I am, however, in south florida, and it tends to stay just barely under 1.010.

We've never really conquered the ammonia, but it is staying at .25.

Casualties:
Royal Gramma (didn't make it past the FW dip)


here is the link for raising sg
http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SalinityAdjust.
discussion begins on pg7 on this thread if you have issues using it.

hopefully if the sg did dip slighty above 1.009 the tomonts still perished.

wow NH3 is still at .25 even with using a remover like Prime.

how did you perform the FW dip where the gramma did not make it,,it's not common a fish would not survive a dip unless it was not done correctly...
gl

[Triggerfish]

Questions regarding Quarantining being "Fool Proof"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Quarantine - you put a fish in a tank on its own for 6 weeks and keep an eye on it for symptoms. Then you add it to your display tank - disease free. Correct?


A: ich will be #1 issue you will likely deal with. a 6 week observation of new livestock should give indication if the parasite is present..if it is ONLY residing in the gills then i would think the fish would exhibit some type of respiration issues over time. although the parasite would not be visible as it matures and releases. so yes,,it 'should' be good to go as long as you did not miss seeing anything.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Ok Ich can exist in tanks without any obvious physical symptoms. In tanks that have ich all can be going well until conditions deteriorate and then the white spots appear. Correct the problem and the symptoms can fade away but ready to rear their head at any time. Correct so far?


A: that's debatable i would think.. you would need to be aware of all possible symptoms to make that determination.
there are no prerequisites that i have come across that will prevent the lifecycle from continuing. higher temps will speed up the lifecycle (i.e. spots become visible quicker) and low sg <=1.009 has been known to kill the lifecycle at the tomont stage.
just not sure how "well" a tank can be regardless of conditions.
apparently ich has no 'dormant' lifecycle stage, so no, the parasite cannot just rear at anytime. it's either there or not. if it is there the Trophonts (parasitic stage) will become visible for a short time. will be very hard to notice on some fish.. LM blennies for instance due to their black and white pattern.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: So what is to stop low-level (i.e. non visible) ich existing in your quarantine tank.

A: unless you are very acute as observing everything, the only way to be sure is to use a preventative treatment of copper of hypo. the only way the parasite would not be visible is if it is residing in the gills or perhaps internally. likely? i don't know..again, i would think that after 6 weeks of parasite reproduction that the fish would develop some type of visible symptoms, at the very least rapid respiration or lack of appetite.
2-3 weeks copper or 4-5 weeks hypo is added safety.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Over the past 4 months I have been putting some long thought into quarantining.
My Conclusion:
i have chosen to put new fish through both treatments during a 6 week quarantine process. 3 weeks copper followed by 4 weeks hypo.
beyond that..i really do not think there would be much more i could do.

[AquAsylum]

Originally posted by Triggerfish

wow NH3 is still at .25 even with using a remover like Prime.

how did you perform the FW dip where the gramma did not make it,,it's not common a fish would not survive a dip unless it was not done correctly...
gl

I don't understand the ammonia either- not only did I use prime, but I used stability for 10 days in the beginning and did SO many water changes- my husband thinks I've lost it! I went through all of that with the 4 different test kits reading differently and now I just trust my SeaChem alert badge for the most part. I think it is probably just because of so many fish in a 55 gallon tank. I don't know how people do it long term with an overstocked tank...

Back on point- the dip was a standard dip- fresh R/O, with pH and temperature matched. I observed each fish (each dipped separately, wasn't that fun) and the dip lasted an average of 10 minutes. The wrasse only went through a 5 minute dip b/c I had read that they are more sensitive and I was paranoid about it. I've read a number of the "experts" statements that if a fish doesn't survive a properly performed dip, it was just too sick, and I think that was the case with the gramma. He had been flashing for about 3 weeks but never showed any spotting so I hadn't diagnosed ich. After the new fish were introduced, they ALL were spotted. Twenty minutes after being put in the QT the gramma was a floater :(

[Triggerfish]

i've never been able to keep a fish in a FW dip for longer than 3m due to the fish going into osmotic shock..that is likely what happened to the gramma.

FW baths i think are safer and less stressful..just use like a 10:1 FW to SW.

[AquAsylum]

About the dip- The rest of the fish were absolutely fine after the same treatment, and I was following advice that spanned several researchers and articles.

About the sg increase- I used the calculator and it makes sense. Two questions regarding the recommendations:
1- why are you supposed to reintroduce water that was in the tank to begin with? Because of our ammonia level, I prefer to add new water whenever I can (water changes consistently at 25%, nothing so drastic as to remove all of the "good" stuff from the water).
2- is there any reason for doing the changes every 12 hours instead of once a day other than convenience? Obviously, if you can do 2 increases per day you'll get there more quickly. I just don't have the time in the mornings to do that- testing is more than enough!

[Triggerfish]

you would just remove the water from the qt add the salt aerate for a bit and toss back in the qt. most folks are not doing 2x water changes per day to remove amm. - so you used the same water.
i do not think there is any reason to do 2x day besides that is what they recommend.. i actually did the whole thing in about 5-6 total changes over 3-4 days on my 1st time around.

[guyguerra]

Hi, I saw the name of the thread and had to check it out. I, like many others hope there is such a thing as an Ich free tank. I went thru a terrible time with it this past January (I've got many threads about it) and never thought I'd be rid of it. I tried Cupramine, but later became convinced that you should only use Seachems test kit, as other kits were showing correct readings, but when I finally got the Seachem kit the reading was too low. Then I tried hypo at 11ppt for 8 weeks, to which the parasite became resistant. I went back to Cupramine for 8 weeks and it was finally over. The survivors were a copperband, ariga butterfly, foxface and two clowns. The losses are to depressing to list. I moved all of them into my new QT (after the Ich was gone, as I used my display for treatment). It has not shown up again. Now I will be moving them into a brand new 230 gallon tank that is cycling right now, so I don't see how I could have Ich again. All new fish will have to live in the 55 gallon qt for 6 weeks before going into the display, and I plan to only add one fish at a time. I never want to deal with Ich again. It was TERRIBLE! If I ever see Ich in my tank again I'll then be convinced that it lives in all tanks, or might be impossible to detect in a QT for six weeks. We'll see.......

[Triggerfish]

yeah,,the hypo seems to be hit or miss.. i am still having a tough time with that treatment on my niger trigger..unless the spot is something besides ich..who the hell knows.

good the BF survived the copper for that long..think they are known to be more sensitive to copper treatments.

[Triggerfish]

<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Quarantine Period = Round 2: Week 7
All fish continue to do well considering they have been in quarantine for about 3 months total time. :rolleyes:


QT#1:55g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks (ich survived) dosage issue?
Treatment 2: Copper (Cupramine)- 3 weeks

Angel- 4 weeks remaining
LMB- 1 week
Gramma- 1 week
<hr>
QT#2:10g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
there are some spots on the male clown..really do not think it's ich. the spots are rather large and do not really resemble the typical ich spot. after copper treatment i will treat with formalin for possible Brooklynella.

2 False percs
4+ weeks remaining

<hr>
QT#3:5g
Niger trigger

Treatment 1: Copper-3weeks
Treatment 2: hypo @ 1.008 4 weeks
still has a spot on him..since the same spot has been there for 3+weeks it must be something else besides ich??
6+ weeks left [/B][/QUOTE]

[AquAsylum]

Okay, so, last weekend we brought our QT salinity up. Over 5 days, it went from 1.008 to 1.023, where it remains. Now, of course, is the wait and see routine.

Well, the fish look terrible. The yellow tang seems to have some lympho on her fins and her body looks covered in tiny pimples. The hippo tang is coated with blotches of furry looking slime. And the rusty goby has a "scratch" on one side. Wrasse, LMB, YWG, and chromis seem okay.

What is the deal? If the hippo has amyloodinium (sp?) I should throw in the towel and start a copper treatment. I can't figure out what on earth is wrong with the poor yellow tang...

The advice I need might not come from this thread, but it is so sadly bizarre to me that these new ailments are surfacing after 6 weeks hypo, almost 10 weeks total in QT. Will it never end?

[AquAsylum]

edit- sorry, double post

[Triggerfish]

how long have they looked like that? just since you raised the sg back to normal? was it like all of a sudden..

doesn't sound like oodinium at all to me.
what color of the pimple looking things on tang?
1 of my damsels develop some lymph or something on its fin during treatment as well...

sounds like you may want to dose a copper treatment for just couple weeks to ensure the ich is gone..then get them back in the main system.
you could get the fish that have looked good for the duration the heck out of quarantine as soon as the main tank is ready.

i found it tough to quarantine more than 1 fish in the same system never mind 7. some fish may come down with somthing else that may need to be treated separately...it blows for sure..

gl

[AquAsylum]

Okay, I had (I hope) a bit of an overreaction. I think that maybe the salinity increase was too much for the tangs. The yellow tang is looking much MUCH better. S/he now has no pimply looking things, but just one line that I'm pretty sure is HLLE. I'm working on figuring out a good treatment for that right now.

I can't figure out what the hippo's deal is. The big problem is that he is too quick and still shy for me to get a good look. Here is what I could see- looks like enlarged pores around the mouth, the formerly fuzzy white area blotched on the body is now more brownish, so I'm thinking bacterial infection. I am dosing maracyn right now and a low malachite green bath as well.

I would very much like to put the rest of the fish back in the display- it has been fallow for 10 weeks now. I was only worried that if somehow the parasite/a parasite has remained in the QT that the fish I move back could carry it with them even if they aren't showing symptoms. I want to watch everyone for at least one more week.

[AquAsylum]

Just read Terry's article on HLLE. I'm not sure if the hippo has it, but I'm setting off to find some vitamin supplements. I have been feeding ocean nutrition reef formula and formula 1 (flakes and pellets, respectively) along with frozen brine soaked in garlic. Yesterday I got formula 2 flakes and the tangs aren't touching it. I also have green nori. I wonder if it would be a good idea to pull some of the caulerpa or other algae out of our display? I'll give it a shot and report back.

[plaz]

My tang got brownish/red splotches when I brought her out of hypo and would not eat at all. Caulerpa in the QT brought her around in 3 days. If you have some, I would put it in (alot of it) - it can't hurt (natural antibiotic).

[plaz]

PS Just watch it and remove any that turns white/clear.

[guyguerra]

My Hippo Tang developed HLLE during hypo and I lost him. I tried vitamins, and eventually pulled him out to put in the QT, but he died the next day. My experience and belief is that Hippo's do not do well with hyposalinity. Good luck, I'm curious as to the outcome.

[Triggerfish]

it would take years for a case of HLLE to actually kill a fish if it ever would happen. most, if not all, fish can live out there natural lifespan with the disease.

[Triggerfish]

<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Quarantine Period = Round 2: Week 8

9/11 - 2 fish have been placed back to main system - fallow for 8 weeks.
Gramma - acclimated back very nicely
LMB - back to scraping rocks like crazy
Both fish received a 30m formalin bath followed by a 2m FW dip upon re-entry.

QT#1:55g
Angel

Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks (ich survived) dosage issue?
Treatment 2: Copper (Cupramine)- 3 weeks: 2 days remaining

3 weeks remaining - developed lymph spot on tail

<hr>
QT#2:10g
2 False percs

Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
Treatment 2: 3 Formalin baths on Male to treat for Brook. 1 bath remaining.

1 week remaining

<hr>
QT#3:5g
Niger trigger

Treatment 1: Copper-3weeks
Treatment 2: hypo @ 1.008 4 weeks
still has a spot on him..since the same spot has been there for 3+weeks it must be something else besides ich??

4 weeks remaining


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/365gramma.JPG

[plaz]

Hang in there everyone!!!

If you get through this, there is hope. My hippos, Yellow Tang and chromis are still all 100% disease and ich free and it has been 5 months now since they went back into the tank!

If you recall, I did almost nothing right. I lost my other Hippo in Hypo when the cycle broke. I panicked and brought the Yellow out of Hypo after 3 weeks because of it (slowly). Almost lost her anyway when she quickly developed bacterial infection. Did nothing in the way of treatment afterward - but brought the water quality up to perfection, added a UV, made sure I had a really strong cycle and plenty of media... then watched the fish for 8 weeks before introducing to the main tank (including the new hippos). I know I got lucky that the Yellow ended up ich free without staying in the hypo long enough (UV and water changes probably helped too).

So... I'm still unsure about all of the ich treatments (hypo may be just as hard on the fish as cupramine... still waiting to see someone with alot of good bacteria/media built up that will try it and come out of it with no side effects to the fish). However, just realize that if you get through it and quarantine EVERYTHING afterwards (frags and snails included), I believe you can have ich free tanks once your fish are ich free!!!

PS I will continue to QT for 8 weeks with the UV and water changes - without any treatment UNLESS signs of a disease or parasite show up. Treatment should be used when needed - but all seem to be really hard on the fish!

[AquAsylum]

Okay, need advice. I know in a normal hypo treatment, after salinity is increased, you should watch the fish for another 4+ weeks to make sure the ich doesn't return.

Given that my hippo tang still looks crappy, I am considering transferring all fish, including hippo, to display this weekend, after only 2 weeks observation. WAIT! Don't respond yet- here's why:

I still cannot identify the hippo's condition as being any particular bacterial or parasitic disease. Therefore, my best guess is that it IS HLLE. I am making this diagnosis becase (a) the yellow tang has the trademark head to tail line, (b) none of the other fish show any bad symptoms which would indicate it is a parasite, and (c) it just doesn't look like anything else.

Assuming it is HLLE, the fish needs to come out of the QT. The water conditions in QT are miserable compared to the display, which is pristine. I could do a restart of the QT, but that would still involve the stress of the fish being removed from the tank and they would have to sit in a bucket while I gave the tank a thorough cleaning, which is at least a full day's work.

What is wrong with the QT water? Well, ammonia hovers at .25, or grey-green on my seachem alert badge. After my maracyn treatment, the water remains cloudy yellow, which can't be good for them. The whole thing just really needs to be cleaned.

I'm still hesitant because of the risk that the ich may not have surfaced yet if it is still there. However, I religiously adhered to hypo, tested sg multiple time a day with a refractometer, and I am optimistic that I have successfully rid my fish of ich. This isn't at all about wanting them back in the display for my own enjoyment- it has been 10 weeks, I could wait a couple more. I just think it might be best for the fish...

[plaz]

There is a risk of ich - but if it were me, I would put them into the display (acclimate them by changing out the QT water with the display water first). It sounds like they were probably cured of the ich, but need out of that bad water (sorry that you had to learn many of the same lessons I did on QT cycling)!

Also, (I think you said you were already doing this) - soak their food in extra vitamins and give them plenty of GOOD sea veggies and meaty food (mine get a mix of squid - cheap at walmart, fresh shrimp, cod, vitamins, garlic and sea veggies daily - a little yucky to mix, so I dedicated a blender to it, but worth it for their health).

[AquAsylum]

Thanks, plaz. I was thinking that another big benefit to the tangs of being in the display will be that, because they've been out so long, the macro algae on the LR has really grown, so they'll have all of those natural veggies to munch on whenever they please. No more nori clip!

[Triggerfish]

Laura - good concerns there.

I would say that if it has been 4-6 weeks with no ich sightings, then you should be good to go.
HLLE is very common with that species anyway.

also, in the future you may want to get another test kit to double check the NH3 readings..not sure if i would rely to heavily on the badge types.

It sounds like you're good here.. get them back in and keep us updated regarding conditions.
good luck..

[plaz]

Sounds like they will be in Tang heaven! Good luck with the move and keep us in the loop!

[AquAsylum]

Okay, here's the update- we made the move last night. Everyone is doing well, and the tangs are grazing like mad cows. Surprisingly, the hippo in clear water looks much better than I anticipated. The yellow is showing the HLLE a little bit more than I expected, but I hope they will both continue to improve.

No signs of the ich. Fingers crossed!

[plaz]

Terrific news!!! I'm sure the Yellow Tang will improve now that he/she is in clear water with lots of algae to graze on! Sometimes Yellows look worse simply because of the color - everything shows on them. Just wait it out and I'm sure the Yellow will be rounded and gorgeous again soon!!!

I'll keep my fingers crossed on the ich. I really think you are home free now!

[plaz]

I just realized Tjay is from New Orleans. Anyone hear how he is doing???

[plaz]

Yikes, looking back - water`bug is from NO as well! Any word on either? It is terrible what all those people have been going through!!!

[Triggerfish]

they are a couple..i think they transferred their fish, but lost the corals due to power outage..the area they are in i believe did not get flooded.

[Triggerfish]

<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Post ICH Period = Week 1

9/11 - Gramma, LMB placed back to main system
9/18 - Female clown placed back
9/19 - NO ich noticed in system
<hr>

<font size=3>Remaining in Quarantine</font>
Round 2 - Week 9


QT#1:55g
Angel
2 yellow tailed damsels

Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks (ich survived) dosage issue?
Treatment 2: Copper (Cupramine)- 3 weeks: no sign of ich upon completion

3 weeks remaining for observation

<hr>
QT#2:10g
False perc

Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
Treatment 2: 4 Formalin baths to treat for Brook. No improvement
Treatment 3: Furan - antibiotic to treat for redness under chin - rapid respiration. no idea?

<hr>
QT#3:5g
Niger trigger

Treatment 1: Copper-3weeks
Treatment 2: hypo @ 1.008 4 weeks
Treatment 3: Copper - 3 weeks - i have no idea what's up with this fish.. looks like spots or small pits on top of head/mouth area, still spot on body.

6 weeks remaining

<hr>
QT#4: little playmate cooler :D
tube worm rock
2 hairy mushroom rock

got these from fellow aquarist-

3 weeks remaining


NOTE: i will be setting up a 5th quarantine tank this week to house some LR i plan on getting a deal on.
i will be moving the niger to a 10g this week also.
oh crap..just remembered,,i'm picking up a free Bangaii from a fellow reefer Wed..no idea where he will end up going????

[tjay]

Well just some more info for those who feel stress can bring on ich in ANY tank.
Due to Katrina our 90 gallon reef, went through a 6 day period with no power no AC and no food in steamy New orleans with nothing but battery driven bubblers.
We lost the copper band before we could get back and the crabs made lunch of him. Two days later we lost our yellow tang. Many of our corals including our ricordia died.
Then to prevent further loss we tore down the tank and moved the remaining 4 fish, an anenome and some of the die hard corals into our 50 gallon QT that we moved to my office where there was power.
In all that stress, and under all those bad conditions our nasso tang and none of our other fish showed any signs of ich.
We are very thankfull to George at coral connection who had a huge battle with his own shop and his 800 gallon tank, but with all of that he kept us supplied with salt and shrimp.
www.coralconnection.com.
We are going to soon start rebuilding our tank, this time with a replacement reef ready tank, and supplies offered to us from aquauniverse.com
Unfortunately it wont be in our beloved city of New Orleans but Dallas Texas.

Just thought yall would find it interesting and hope it encourages you folks to keep up the quest. It does pay off.

[tjay]

Originally posted by plaz
Yikes, looking back - water`bug is from NO as well! Any word on either? It is terrible what all those people have been going through!!!

waterbug and I are betrothed. We share our tank and a million other common passions.
We faired better than most and with a little help from our friends we will have a new tank in Dallas in about a month or so.
We did loose a couple fish and corals. And we lost our best bud bruiser the black lab we had. ( the stress of evacuation was too much for him )

[Triggerfish]

horrible tj...sorry to hear bout all that..how the heck did the dog die?

[plaz]

Hi Tjay and Water' Bug,
I am very, very sorry for your loss! I know how our pets are part of the family!!!

Thankfully, you both are all right... and I'm glad to hear "Betty Boop?" (I think that was your Tang?) made it through.

Once you get setup in Dallas, let us know what type of corals you are interested in and I am sure we will all be glad to send you whatever frags might be of interest!

[tjay]

Bruiser our lab, was 13 years old and had health problems. Moving him from here to baton rouge and putting him in a caotic place with 15 other displaced people and pets stressed him over the edge.

We had to put him to sleep two days after leaving. He was 95 lbs and it only took enough medicine to put down a 20 lb dog for him to stop breathing. The vet in baton rouge was so nice, they waved the fees because of what had happened and were so supportive of us.

[tjay]

To see the fish tank rescue see here
http://www.jonezing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4&Itemid=1

This was something I wrote just to deal with the mess

http://www.jonezing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=1

[AquAsylum]

tjay, I just don't know what to say. Your attitude is amazing. Glad to see you are hanging in there...

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Originally posted by tjay
Well just some more info for those who feel stress can bring on ich in ANY tank.
Due to Katrina our 90 gallon reef, went through a 6 day period with no power no AC and no food in steamy New orleans with nothing but battery driven bubblers.
We lost the copper band before we could get back and the crabs made lunch of him. Two days later we lost our yellow tang. Many of our corals including our ricordia died.
Then to prevent further loss we tore down the tank and moved the remaining 4 fish, an anenome and some of the die hard corals into our 50 gallon QT that we moved to my office where there was power.
In all that stress, and under all those bad conditions our nasso tang and none of our other fish showed any signs of ich.
We are very thankfull to George at coral connection who had a huge battle with his own shop and his 800 gallon tank, but with all of that he kept us supplied with salt and shrimp.
www.coralconnection.com.
We are going to soon start rebuilding our tank, this time with a replacement reef ready tank, and supplies offered to us from aquauniverse.com
Unfortunately it wont be in our beloved city of New Orleans but Dallas Texas.

Just thought yall would find it interesting and hope it encourages you folks to keep up the quest. It does pay off.


Hey tjay,
Good to hear that you and your family are safe!!
And that most of your tank and its inhabitants pulled through .
So sorry about your dog:( sounds like he had a good and loving home for 13 years.


P.S Also glad you can prove that stress DOES NOT cause ick!!!

;)

[water`bug]

Betty B. survived and so did the two clowns and goby. Our corals on the other hand are toast. It's been quite sad.

But no ick. :mixed:

Thank God!

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Stay safe, looks like more bad weather headed your way!

[jeffbrig]

Hi guys, I'm thought I might as well check in on this thread. I'm attempting to start my 250g tank ICH FREE, so I'm running all of my fish through a 55g QT before they see the main tank. I matured a biowheel filter in the tank's sump for a few weeks before buying any fish, and ammonia levels have been great so far - way below .25ppm on my salifert kit.

Here are the guys currently in quarantine:
http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/clowns3.jpg

The achilles tang was showing a couple of ich spots on Tuesday, and the smaller clown looked like he might have one as well, so everyone was given a formalin dip and they are now going through hyposalinity. Over the past few days, I've lowered the sg to just over 1.010, and I will take it down to 1.009 tonight. I'm planning 5-6 weeks of hypo to play it safe.

Wish me luck!

[Triggerfish]

yeah,, good luck...
nice tang.

advice..keep sg at 1.008 to allow for slight fluctuations. monitor 2x daily with refractometer.

[jeffbrig]

Based on my reading, 1.008 is the hairy edge of what can harm your fish, since they regulate their internal fluids to 1.007-1.008. I will be checking with a refractometer 2x daily, but I'll probably target closer to 1.009.

[Triggerfish]

if it slips at all over 1.009 you may need to start over again. but who knows..trial and error i guess. hopefully you won't have any water evap while you are gone during the day.

[jeffbrig]

Evap is pretty minimal in humid FL. My open-top 250 only evaporates about a gallon a day, the 55 is covered, so it's even much lower than that. From a true 1.009, you would have to evaporate over 10% of your water to go up to 1.010.

[plaz]

I would stick to 1.09 too. I've heard Achilles can be fragile - beautiful fish though!!!

As long as you are patient and wait 6-8 weeks after the last spot (and that time does not have to be all in hypo), you will be fine. I would play it safe for the fishies sake too. Just watch them closely - several of us has severely stressed fish after the hypo. Also, I would not combine any treatments - just the 1.09 hypo... and a UV if you have one available.

Best of luck and keep us in the loop!

PS Most of the problems have been when they come out of hypo or water qualilty (loosing the cycle). Bring them out REALLY, REALLY slow when you get to that point and check water for ammonia and nitrites twice a day (don't slack off even after a few weeks because the cycle can break and poison them quickly).

[AquAsylum]

I ran my QT 8 weeks at 11ppt which is around 1.008. All fish were fine throughout the hypo treatment, including a hippo and yellow tang, and a fairy wrasse. Wrasses are supposed to be sensitive to hypo and mine did great at 1.008. It was when I INCREASED the sg that they had some trouble.

[Triggerfish]

<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Post ICH Period = Week 2

9/11 - Gramma, LMB placed back to main system
9/18 - Female clown placed back
9/26 - NO ich noticed in system - i think the 8 weeks fallow worked.
<hr>



NOTE: 4 other quarantine tanks continue to run.
3 with fish, 1 with LR.[/B][/QUOTE]

[jeffbrig]

Triggerfish,

Glad to hear everything is going well....


I'm following in your foot steps, now I have 2 QTs running. :D

I decided to separate the clowns from the tang, so they have their own 10g to enjoy now. The smaller clown has been suffering from brooklynella, and has been receiving formalin dips every other day (in addition to the hyposalinity treatment). I wanted them in a separate smaller tank so I have the option of treating them inside the tank without worrying about affecting the tang. Plus, if I need to use meds that affect the biological filter, I can easily keep up in a 10g tank through water changes alone, that's hard to do on a tank as big as a 55g. I think the little clown has finally turned the corner, as his appetite has returned in a big way today.

Here's a pic of the 10g:
http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/clown_tank.jpg


The achilles is looking great, he seems to enjoy having the 55g to himself. His overall color is improving, he's very active, and eating like a pig. Only a few ich spots are still visible - one on his tail, and one on each pectoral fin. Those don't even show up in the photographs:
http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/achilles2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/achilles3.jpg

I'm not even counting days yet until the fish look 100% healthy.

[Triggerfish]

yeah,,sometimes it's best to treat fish in separate tanks more so if they have secondary infections.

you can start counting the days after the last spot is noticed..hopefully you will just keep counting and not have to start over.
ever give any thought to adding a large pvc elbow or something for the clowns to hang in.
good luck.

[jeffbrig]

Yeah, I really need to put something in both tanks to give the fish places to hide.

[AquAsylum]

Hey, guys. I really am beside myself. Ten days after return to the display and the HLLE is much improved on both tangs, but the hippo is showing spots. Last night I thought maybe it was just sand or bubbles, but they persist. It is only on the hippo. The tank looks so amazing, I just can't bear the thought of tearing it apart again.

In the grand scheme of life, I know this doesn't rank on the worst of things that can happen to a person, but after all I did to try to beat the ich, for it to come back really is heartbreaking. I would love for one of you to tell me a way to get through this without having to take the fish out of the tank.

If I do remove them, it is going to be cupramine time for us. I will probably have to use 2 55 gallon QTs because the bioload was bad enough before and with any sort of copper treatment I won't be able to run carbon. I'm most worried about my yellow tang who might not be healthy enough for copper, a treatment to which they are already very sensitive.

Good news, anyone?

[Triggerfish]

don't fret yet...
instead of trying to review the treatment you used just answer here:
1. duration main tank was fallow
2. treatment used on fish
3. duration of treatment
4. amount of time spots last seen on hippo
5. post a pic of hippo

we'll go from here.

[AquAsylum]

Originally posted by Triggerfish
1. duration main tank was fallow
2. treatment used on fish
3. duration of treatment
4. amount of time spots last seen on hippo
5. post a pic of hippo


1. Main tank was fallow 11 weeks
2. Hyposalinity used- 11 ppt target salinity during treatment
3. A total of 9 weeks, but 6 weeks after last spot seen
4. Hippo had the worst spots of the initial outbreak. They were gone probably a week and a half after hypo started, so a total of 2 weeks maximum.
5. There is no way I will get a shot of that fish. She is uber paranoid and quick. The spots look like...well...ich. They are white, not faded body color. They are sprinkled randomly, so do not appear to be a wound. S/he still has great coloration, behavior, and appetite. You may recall that I moved the fish back into the display largely because of an awful looking hippo- this is the same fish. Whatever that condition was went away marvelously and s/he looked great in the display except for a few enlarged pores around the mouth. Knock on wood, no spots on any other fish.

[Triggerfish]

odd that you would not see any spots for what 8 weeks?
fish goes back in then they appear.
ya almost have to go 100% that the ich died off during the long fallow period.

tough to come up with answers here,,besides the fact that perhaps you missed seeing something during treatment..as the hypo is not as fool proof as copper.

anyhow..what i would do:
1. remove tang and treat with cupramine for 3 weeks once copper concentration has stabalized with both a.m and p.m readings.
from what i understand, during the 1st week it is unstable thus not allowing the correct dosage to remain in solution. that's a large PITA to deal with. you will need to perhaps add copper for up to 7 days after initial dosages. at this point i would be more concerned with under dosing than over.

2. monitor other livestock for signs of parasite. if found..well..you know what you need to do...
GL

[jeffbrig]

Just a quick update....the few remaining ich 'grains' have dropped off the achilles tang. At this point, he has a few small light blotches on his skin. They're not obvious, only visibile when he swims right up close the light at the right angle. I'm not sure if these are blemishes where the skin was damaged from the ich 'pimples', or a sign of something else. Other than that, color is great, behavior is great, he even ate nori out of my hand this weekend. We're still rock-solid at 1.009 every time I check.

Here's a pic of the tang doing his favorite thing - eating!
http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/achilles_day14.jpg

[tjay]

Also dont panic at every white spot.
We sweated a couple spots when we went back to the main, and it turned out none of them where ich.

[AquAsylum]

Speaking of watching spots, we've kept an eye on our hippo. I'm afraid there are only more and more spots. I'm now bracing for what seems to be the inevitable- QT round 2.

Considering that the fish are largely in good health, I'm waiting a little while before we move them, hoping that this time we can avoid a major cycle. The 55 has our new clowns and orchids in it and before the overcrowding begins, I wanted them to get the cycle moving.

About copper treatment- what filtration CAN you use? Since this is such an extreme bioload, I will need to use everything I can to keep ammonia and nitrites down.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by AquAsylum

About copper treatment- what filtration CAN you use?

whatever biological filtration you have available..couple of power filters with seeded media from main tank, may be best option.

[jeffbrig]

Hey guys, how about another update?

Clowns - 10g QT
20 days in hyposalinity and counting. After completing brooklynella treatment (formalin dips), the small clown continued to show tail/fin erosion. We finally determined this was a secondary bacterial infection (common after brooklynella), so we did a round of Maracyn2 treatment. That included 50% water changes every other day. The fin/tail rot seems to have stopped, and he is recovering nicely. The larger clown seems to be less interested in food this week. Don't know if that's from stress, illness, or if its just being picky. The little one is eating with gusto. I'm still trying some different foods, so no worries yet.

Achilles tang - 55g QT
20 days in hyposalinity and counting. If you put food in the tank, it disappears. I think this fish has grown a good 3/4" in the month I've had him. Eating formula 1 flake, 2 pellets, and nori daily. Occasionally frozen foods as well, he'll eat anything. I've been offering him plenty of food to "fatten him up" and strengthen his immune system.

Late last week the tang showed some cloudiness and swelling in one eye. Possibly he bumped/scratched it, but I started checking the water like crazy. Ammonia was nearly .5ppm! I did an immediate 30% water change on his tank, and followed with another 50% change the next day. 50% again 2 days later. Water quality is looking great again, and the eye is almost back to normal. (Note to self: an achilles tang is NOT the fish to be cycling a new tank with) :D

Jeff

[Triggerfish]

good update Jeff.
i will be doing an update within the next 3 days... the quest has taken a slight shift in approach..more to follow.

[Triggerfish]

<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Post ICH Period = Week 5

ICH is showing up again. level appears to be low.
The causes could be many as to why it is in the tank at this point.
Removing everything is not an option at this time.


Prior Plans to Eradicate

1. Fallow - tank fallow for 8 weeks. may have been eradicated, however more than likely reintroduced back in with livestock. Also, quite possibly by addition of infected new fish/corals - some quarantined, some not. - some SPS was not quarantined and some LPS was only scrubed at the base.

2. Metronidazole - i started this treatement with 2 low dosages. I have since stopped treating after hearing that it could wipe out my bio-filter and sps at high dosages(which may be needed to eradicate). I will begin to carbon out this evening. this med can also be fed to fish.

New Plans to Eradicate

1. Garlic - All food soaked.

2. Cleaners - shrimp/gobies. will be adding 1 goby today and more to follow. looking into getting 3 shrimps soon.

3. Kick Ich - I will more than likely attempt this product in the upcoming weeks.

4. Quarantine - I will quarantine all livestock for 5 weeks. Hopefully this will help reduce the chance of introducing a new strain.

My goal here is, if not to eradicate, at the very least keep the infestation very low allowing the livestock to remain relatively healthy. Hopefully, at the end of 10-11 months the strain will have weakened and eventually die off as the cells age.

I will no doubt, have to hold off on my heavy stocking plan until i see no evidence of the parasite for at least 2 months.

good luck to the remaining folks...

couple of recent pics of tank.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/365reefmonth5.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/365reef1.JPG

[guyguerra]

Hey triggerfish, sorry to hear that you are still battling it. I've been following this thread and see you've done a lot of work on this. I was in your shoes a year ago and hope never to see it again. I have moved two groups of fish into my new 230 gall tank now. The first group came from my old tank, which is where I battled Ich for 4 months. They were clean when I put them in the new tank. Then I QT'd a Coris Wrasse and two jawfish for 4 weeks and they were clean, so in they went. My 230 seems Ich free and all fish are looking great. Three days ago I bought a Kole Tang, 4 fire gobies and a Coral Beauty and put them in my empty 50 gallon QT. Sure enough, the very next day the tang, pigmy angle and 1 goby showed Ich spots. Thank God I put them in the QT. I started Cupramine yesterday and will keep the dosage up and wait until six weeks after the last spot is gone before I consider putting them in my 230 tank. I really do believe we can have Ich free tanks, it takes QT, attention and LUCK. I have added corals directly into my tank, and a ghost eel (since they don't carry Ich), but this even worries me. What if a Tomont (if I have the stage names correct, I've forgotten each stages name) is attached to the coral or the rock it's attached too? This seems to be pert of the luck portion. I can't see putting corals in a fallow tank for 8 weeks, plus running a fish QT. The attention part for me now is to not cross contaminate my tanks. I've almost done a stupid thing already by using the same utensils for feeding the tanks, but luckily caught myself. I'll keep up on this thread. Guy

[xvinnyax]

Trigger what a beautiful tank!..

I have been reading this thread for ever and after page 24 I noticed that no one has mentioned this one product. I have just ordered it to help with my break out of itch. It comes in monday and I will post my results. I will post the products ad below for review.
--------------------------------------------------------
Chem-Marin Stop Parasite 32 oz.

For an aquarium that contains corals or invertebrates. Stop Parasite is made from many different agents. One speeds up the fishes natural slime coat, causing the parasites to detach themselves. Another attracts parasites as a non-nutritional food source. Others speed up appetite and build the immune system. It will not harm the internal organs of the fish. 8 oz.

Recommended Purchase Size (for a 5-day treatment):

8oz. for 30-55 gallons
16oz. for 75-100 gallons
32oz. for 125-300 gallons
------------------------------------------------------

Can use it in your display tank, I have been doing fresh water dips and QT for now but I don't have a big enough sick tank, only a 10 gal one for long term QT of multiple fish. So before I go out and buy another bigger tank I will see where this product leads me..

If anyone has heard any bad things let me know before I use it on Monday. I searched around and found nothing on it.

[Triggerfish]

Guy - thanks for the input.. things are holding steady..no increase in the small population yet.

see that's the thing with adding anything directly to your system that came from anything with fish. the cycst can attach to anything hard, you can scrub LPS, snails and such- but not SPS.
hard to think that a small 2" frag could harbor ich cycst, unlikely but possible..perhaps that's where the 'luck' factor comes into play.

the largest risks, by far, i believe are from fish and liverock that came from system containing fish. i'm still QT 2 large rocks for 5 weeks.

yeah,,ya got to be careful about using anything from one tank to another ,,even your hand.
good luck..sounds like you're staying on the safe/right track.


xvinn- thanks very much for the comments-
you can certainly attempt to try and eradicate directly in the main tank by adding 'reef safe' products.. it's worth a shot as long as your fish are not in dire need for immediate attention.

not familiar with what you posted..i think [b]kick ich is most popular and it does seem that more folks report effectivness than not.
the ones that say it does not work, either have never tried it or did not use the product appropriately.
who knows, it may work for some strains and not others..

good luck with the product and look forward to hearing the results.

[plaz]

Aqua and Triggerfish,
I'm very sorry to hear you have to start again!!! I know that is frustrating. Aqua, sorry if we pushed you toward adding them back too quickly - it just sounded like they were not going to make it in the QT.

I tried 2 rounds of Kick Ich with Garlic and Metrondaloze (sp?) in their food before going the QT route. It didn't hurt anything. Seemed to help while I was doing it. The ich came right back, so in the end I had accomplished nothing except spending alot of money. Hope it works better for someone else.

I have some frags in QT now. I know what you mean about 2 QTs. I won't be buying any new fish until the frags are out. Patience Iis hard, but I learned my lesson on this one. We seem to have gotten lucky once... now will try to be ultra careful. If you read the threads, there seem to be many, many people who QT just their fish and wonder why the ich comes back. The experts say it can come in on LR, corals, snails, water column.... everything needs to be quarantined unless you are extremely lucky, time after time!

[guyguerra]

Plaz, I might have missed a post of yours in this long thread, Did you add a coral that brought Ich into your tank? If so, I will QT those also, which means 8 weeks as it really is a fallow tank situation. I'm very curious about this. I don't want to count on luck.
Triigerfish, your tank is gorgeous! Thanks for the pics.
Guy

[plaz]

Hi Guy,
I had luck after going fallow & QT to get rid of ich (no ich when Tangs were returned - but lost some in QT because I didn't understand enough/have enough cycled media). I have been very careful since then and plan on adding NOTHING (not even a snail) without QT in the hopes I will never have to go through that again. So far, several months have gone by and no ich at all has showed up (even with 2 Hippos and a temp drop when electricity went out)... knock wood!

I believe my original ich was introduced with a Hippo from Inland Aquatics (they advised not to QT because of the stress... bad advice)! I have known several people who quarantined only fish and all had ich or something bad introduced. It only makes sense - it is a tiny parasite, bad timing in the life cycle could cause it to be introduced from anything (read Steven Pro, etc. - all the experts seem to agree). I also know someone who got redbugs and was surprised because he only added a small leather frag and thought the "acro" bugs would only be brought in by other acros since they host on them (same concept).
Best of luck!

[guyguerra]

I'll never have another Hippo tang because I am convinced they are so prone to Ich that they will put any tank in jeopardy. It would be a lot of work (though I tend to agree with you) to QT everything. Here's an example: I have my QT with a group of fish that are 2 weeks into a six week QT session, now I decide to add a couple of cleaner shrimp. I'd have to wait 4 weeks to get the shrimp. Now if you wait, then put the shrimp (or coral) in QT, you can't do anything with fish for another 6 weeks as they might introduce Ich, which would then force you to set up a third tank to move the fish to for treatment, and leave the shrimp/coral fallow for 8 weeks. If you ran a third tank to fallow all corals and invertebrates you could do it, but I couldn't put in the time to have a main display, a coral QT and a fish QT and maintain all water parameters and equipment. Have you tried to do this yet? I like the thought, and don't want Ich, but QT'ing corals seems like a lot of work.

[plaz]

I have had 3 QT tanks running at one time before (when I had to take out all the fish). It was really hard! QT is a pain. I just try to plan out everything carefully now - stopped doing impulse buys. To me it is still worth it (the thought of tearing everything down again is too unthinkable).

For cleaner shrimp, rock, snails, coral, etc. I QT for 32 days (should be cover the worst case scenario according to the cycle). Fish I do 6 - 8 weeks.

You probably won't have as many problems if you stay away from Tangs - They are my favorite, so I got a large tank just to have them and keep them comfortable. However, small fish are great too! I would still try to figure out how to QT though... if you really want to be pest free (it is nice not to worry about releasing red bugs, etc. into the tank - QT gives you a chance to observe).

Ask one of the experts - it may be okay to add the cleaners to the main tank (without shipping water of course), as long as you keep it fallow 32 days after.

[AquAsylum]

Hey, guys. Sorry I've been absent, but after my last post, I never did take the plunge and put all of the fish back in QT to try copper. We are giving it a shot with Kick Ich, and frankly, I was embarrassed to admit that here! Now that I see you have been talking about it, I'll let you know what it has done for us....

The hippo had been the only one showing signs of ich after we put all of the fish back in the display after a complete, full regimen of hypo. Plaz was right- the tangs probably wouldn't have made it if we left everyone in QT. Considering that we had new fish in QT, the bioload just would have been too much, and I wanted the tangs to at least be healthy if we were going back to really stressful conditions.

So, I had some Kick Ich sitting around (never used it after reading that it was hocus pocus) and thought it was worth a shot. Yesterday finished our first 14 day treatment. The ich has not worsened. While the hippo still has some spots, it does not seem as bad as it was initially. The only other fish that may have gotten some spots is one of the gobies- he has some faded coloration, but I never saw white spots on him. The HLLE is all but gone, and the fish all act quite happy and healthy. I'm going to immediately do a second 2 week treatment and see what happens.

I'm also thinking like Trigger in that maybe we'll just hit that one year point where the parasite life cycle just stops. Wouldn't that be nice??

Off to board up for Wilma...

[guyguerra]

Laura, good luck with Wilma, we live in Naples, and I've got a generator and enough gas to keep power on the fridge, lights, fans and tanks for 3 days. I live on the water so might have to move inland, but will start up the generator and hook it up to the tank before I leave, then get back asap.
Plaz, I thought more about what you've said and I am going to change to QT'ing everything that goes in my display. The tank is virtually done, but I am adding a few more fish and will want to add some more corals, but I can take my time. I'll still stay with one QT, but I'll alternate between a fish load, then a coral/invert load.

[AquAsylum]

Guy- looks like she's headed your way. Let us know how you fare....

Has anyone heard of anyone doing the Kent Marine RxP treatment? I just read the whole Kent Marine description for it and it sounds pretty tough. Since we don't have corals, I'm thinking it might be a good option for us. We do have live rock,worms, and some conchs, but that's the extend of our non-fish life.

[plaz]

Best of luck to everyone in Wilma's path!
You will all be in our thoughts!!!

[Bon Money]

Hey everyone, I have heard that mandarine fishes are immune to ich because they have slimier coats than other fish. I've had ich for 5 weeks now and it is still visible on the walls of the tank. I am starting to lose my patience with looking at a fishless tank and since I was going to get a mandarine soon anyway I might just go for it.

My roommate has ich in his tank and he kept his mandarine in and he's doing fine. So does his mandarine just have a better immune system or is the myth really true?

[guitarfish]

I'm way late to this thread. I have an ich free tank, but only after having been burned by ich a few times and losing some prized fish. Last year I invested a few bucks in a 2nd tank to be my permanently running QT tank. After removing all my fish from the main infected tank, I performed hyposalinity on them, and a couple months later they were clean, and the main tank was as well. I returned the fish to the tank - they've been ich free for almost a year now.

I have 4 fish in my QT now who have just come out of hyposalinity, they will be moved into the main tank soon.

Bottom line rule for me: anything "wet" - corals, snails, rock, plants, and of course, fish, will go into QT. Fish will by hypo'd. Non-fish will sit in QT at normal SG levels for several weeks so that any ich will die off. Nasty, nasty parasite.

[plaz]

Bon Money,
Mandarins do get ich. They are just more immune to it than other fish, but can apparently get it.... read here:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/manddisfaqs.htm

[AquAsylum]

Bon Money-

You said you can see ich on the walls of your tank. I highly doubt that it is ich. When our tank was fairly new, we had an outbreak of spots that ended up being a hatching of good pods...

Your fish could indeed have the parasite, but the walls of your tank probably don't.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by AquAsylum

So, I had some Kick Ich sitting around (never used it after reading that it was hocus pocus) and thought it was worth a shot. Yesterday finished our first 14 day treatment. The ich has not worsened.

so, as you indicated, the kick ich did not seem to fully work during the 1st treatment round.

i think the fish will be fine over a long term period if the parasite population stays very low and hopefully the irritan cells will just begin to die off. as long as the gills do not get severely infected the fish should be fine. supposedly the population should increase during each subsequent cycle, until the population begins to die off beginning at the 9-11 month point.

the current strain i have has been around since MAY and who knows how long it was in the system where it came from. I may though have introduced another strain along the way.. so i will count 11 months beginning with this current month..

again,,more spots seem to show up on my angel than other fish - some i do not see anything on..or perhaps they are just easier to notice.

i have a 2L bottle arriving Friday. will report on its effectiveness or lack thereof.

[guitarfish]

I tried Kick Ich as a last ditch effort about a year ago, it didn't work, so that was that. Hopefully you'll have success with it.

[guyguerra]

Can Ich be seen on the tank? I've never heard of this.Is it possible to get a picture of it. We made it thru Wilma OK, but the power just came back on and is still out in a lot of areas. I intend to install a generator that will kick on automatically when the power goes out, and to use a propane fuel set up. I actually had to run back to my house just as the storm was picking up to top off the gas tank so that it wouldn't run out during the height of the storm. My son lost everything in a nano cube that we didn't have a generator to run it. Good advice for all of us in the Gulf Coast. I'll start a separate thread on this. Sorry for digressing from the topic. I am very curious on see Ich in the tank, I've only seen it on fish. The fish that are in my QT are doing well, except a coral beauty that didn't make it. I'm so strict on treatment that I stay at the top levels allowed with Cupramine figuring that the most important thing is that my fish become Ich free before they make it into the big tank. Cupramine has to be tested with a Seachem kit, don't try a different kit. Done properly with the dosage checked every day, the Ich WILL die. The loss of one fish doesn't bother me near as much as introducing Ich to my Ich free 230 gallon tank, which would be a disaster.

[pecan2phat]

Hi guys,

Hope you don't mind that I chime in on this thread. I've read and followed this thread with great interest. In the past as others have mentioned, the sure fire method was hypo salinity or copper treatments. Ive also tried Kick-Ich, Rid-Ick, Chem Marin, yada, yada.

I just wanted to mention two things regarding Kick-Ick and another product that I am trying starting today.
My current tanks infected is a 120g SPS dominated reef tank & a 90g FOWLR tank. The reef tank was initially treated with Kick-Ick because hypo & copper was not an option (neither was capturing the fish for treatment). I basically followed the instructions and 2/3rds into my treatment, I started to have RTN problems from the base up on a bunch of my SPS especially all my caps. Needless to say I stopped the Kick-Ick, performed a water change, added carbon & resumed skimming. Any SPS coral that started to RTn was eventually lost and all three tangs also eventually died from heavy infestation of the parasite. My Wrasses, Anthias, Clownfish & Regal angel were not affected to the point of displaying the spots of their body. They have been fine for the past 2-3 months but shows signs of scratching. I've always fed frozen foods soaked in garlic, vitamin C & ginger water extract to try to let them fight it off without medication. It seems to hold it at bay but definitely not erradication. UV is run continously on both tanks. That's my latest experience with Kick-Ick & SPS.
Now for the FOWLR tank. Tank has been ick free for since the blackout we had on the east coast. So that would be about 3-4 years now. At some point, I must have not rinsed my hands when working from the reef tank to the FOWLR and bang!, my FOWLR is infected. Since the infestation came on quite quickly and the tank has live rock and substrate, I did not want to hypo and loose the live rock but I did bring the salinity down to about 1.019 for ease of osmoregulation. I decided to try Kick-Ick again. After the first 15 day treatment, there was no improvement whatsoever. I then started to notice that some of the fish showed signs of secondary bacterial infections (which can be common when infected with Ick) such as skin lessions and some tail rot. So I perform a 17% water change on day 17 and start a new 15 day treatment but aggressively. Dosage was 1.5X (3 oz per 25g of water) every other day 7 times and the UV sterilizer was turned off (No skimmer or carbon was used since initial treatment) This was based on the following thread that I had posted:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=693921

I also started a 3 day treatment with their other product called Rally which was for the secondary infection and if any Oodinium was present. This was performed twice at 1 oz per day for 3 days with a 2 day rest period inbetween treatments.
Guess what guys, no improvement. I'm into my third treatment after another 17% water change on day 33 and I'm reading this thread and the sponsor pop ups flash NO SICK FISH. So this peaks my interest. I browse their website and it could be another hocus pocus potion but at this point, I'll try it.
Recieved it yesterday and stopped the Kick-Ick (was 3 dose into third treatment). No water change this time and added the No Sick Fish treatment this morning. It states the dosage as 1 drop per 25g twice a day for 7 days. I also emailed them to reconfirm if their product has been tested with SPS with no adverse effects even though their product info page states that it is 99.9% reef/invertebrae safe. They replied this morning via email that yes, their product was tested with SPS and safe. So the reef tank was added to the treatment also.

Here's the website:
http://www.nosickfish.com/product_info.jsp

I'll update how this product works. Has anyone tried this product before? It was $49 after shipping but heck, I just wasted $110 on 3 bottles of Kick-Ick & 1 bottle of Rally!

[AquAsylum]

Pecan- thanks for sharing. I have not heard any stories about using that product, but I have heard of the product itself. In fact, someone posted about it on (I think) this thread awhile back and seemed to be very related to the company. He proceeded to PM me and tell me I just HAD to try it, which made me less inclined to order it! All I remember was that they didn't list the ingredients and that bothered me. I'm very curious to hear how it goes for you.

You said you tried several products- what about RxP?

[plaz]

Guyguerra,
Sorry to hear of your son's loss. I hope everything else turns out fine!

I don't think you can see ich unless it is on a fish (at least the usual replies to little white specs is that they are probably bugs, etc.).

I'm glad the Seachem test worked for you. I bought one for Curpramine and could not get it to read at all when I had just dosed to .25. I took it back to the lfs along with water. They couldn't get it to read either (looked like no copper was in the water). Then they tried a RedSea kit and the cupramine registered .25 - exactly what I had dosed.

Best of luck getting back on track after the storrm!

[pecan2phat]

Hi Laura,

I still have a bottle of RxP in my fridge! I have not had any success with pepper based products with the exception of stressing the fish even further.

I'll definitely keep everyone updated on the No Sick Fish medication. Today is day 1 of a 7 day treatment (or possibly more). The reef tank has no medication in the system and the fish are not heavily infected but scratching, the FOWLR is heavily infested and has heavy doses of Kick-Ick and some remaining Rally in the water. I don't think this will skew the No Sick Fish meds if it works since this was day 38 with 15 doses of Kick-Ick and zilch results.
No UV sterilzation, skimming or carbon usage in either tank during treatment period.

[Triggerfish]

what is in the "no sick fish", if you cannot get info from the manuf, perhaps RC can chime in since they advertise it now.

i also was getting spammed by some db named farmboy or something to that effect. basically told the db not to spam be again with his crap.
good luck.

ps..i will not be shocked if i hear you come back stating that the stuff cured everything overnight.....

[pecan2phat]

Overnight cures are a myth and pure fantasy.

Just thought that I'd let you know what I've tried and it's results, that's it nothing more to it than that.

[guyguerra]

Plaz, I learned the hard way about using Red Sea test kits and Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit when using Cupramine.They will both show copper when the Seachem kit shows nothing. That caused me to fight it longer than I had to the first time I used it because I thought the kit was bad and I didn't want to overdose my tank. Finally after my first failure with Cupramine, then my 8 week failure with hypo at 11ppt I had nothing left to loose. I poured as much Cupramine in the tank as I had to to get the test kit to show me the blue color that indicates the correct amount. I do keep a small amount of substrate and LR (dead from using copper a long time ago) to help the fish not to stress too much, which I believe requires for medication. I found that it takes a lot more Cupramine than what the directions call for. At least twice as much or more, and that it will take about 5 days to get the levels set, as overdosing is scary, but once you do, it's done and it works. To any of you reading this, NEVER trust a Red Sea or AP test kit with Cupramine, you'll never get the dosage high enough. I've shown this to my LFS and now the wont sell anything but the Seachem test kit if a customer buys Cupramine. It actually took me a week to get my levels right in the QT group I have right now, but it's done, and unless I do a water change, it'll be good until the Ich is gone. I'll post my results when this group is finished, but I've had great success wit this before. I just had to learn the hard way. I had so many copper test kits that the two LFS stores in my area (and my wife) thought I was a little nuts and obsessed. But I've got a good plan now and it works.

Thanks for the note on my son's tank. We put the corals that survived in my big tank, but some corals, and all fish didn't make it. I'm in my home in the Blue Ridge Mountains now, getting some R&R (with water and electricity), but I intend to start a thread warning people along the coastal areas to have built in back up generators for their tanks. If it wasn't for the fact that I had to stay there to keep the generator running, I would have evacuated. So I HAD to stay in a hurricane because I have an aquarium! hum... By next year I'll have a generator built into my house. My investment in my tank, and all the effort and hours, is too much to risk.

[plaz]

Hi guyguerra,
It is good to know the seachem test actually does work! I have trusted them with other items and was disappointed when I thought their test didn't work. I wonder why it doesn't show a reading at .25 or... until it gets to the strong dose? It was frustrating/scary not knowing what was up - which is why I ended up with the other test. I'll go with the Seachem if I have to do this again.

Glad you are getting some R&R!

[Triggerfish]

i hear ya on using the proper test kit with copper. yes, over the 1st 5 days or so you will need to add more copper..i think it could take up to 10 days to actually stabalize.
the kit comes with the test sample so you know exactly what color to reference.

the Kick-ich arrives today..my angel is looking worse in regards to spots, other fish are not as bad, with some not really affected.

if the angel continues to get worse over the next week's time, i may need to get him out of there.

i do plan on getting a generator for this upcoming winter,, i have too much in the tank now to risk.

[guyguerra]

I've had good success with almost all of my fish (excluding a Foxface and Jawfish, very timid) using acrylic fish traps. I've never been able to net a fish out of my display!

[Atomikk]

Guys, NoSickFish's ICK medication is a miracle bottle. After purchasing my CBB, I discovered that it had some ick. I quickly bought the medication, while previously researched its results. I dosed 1 drop per 25gal for 7 days. After the 7th day, there was no ick. None. To this day there is 0 ick. I couldnt be more happier owning this product.

[guyguerra]

Atomikk, I saw pecans post about it and bookmarked the site. I'll keep an eye on posts about it, and if it looks positive I might try it. I don't see how you can stop the Ich cycle in 7 days unless it can kill every stage of the parasites transformation. How long has it been since the last spots disapeared? Did you treat in your tank with the inverts and corals? Thanks for the info, Guy

[Atomikk]

Originally posted by guyguerra
Atomikk, I saw pecans post about it and bookmarked the site. I'll keep an eye on posts about it, and if it looks positive I might try it. I don't see how you can stop the Ich cycle in 7 days unless it can kill every stage of the parasites transformation. How long has it been since the last spots disapeared? Did you treat in your tank with the inverts and corals? Thanks for the info, Guy

Its been at least 1.5 months since the last time I treated the tank. I treated the tank directly with everything in it. I did turn off my skimmer for 3 days, and I lightly fed the tank inhabitants. Also carbon was taken out as well. Worked like it said it should.

[pecan2phat]

Just an FYI on Kick-Ick if anyone read my post and checked the link. You should apply a "load" dose on day one (4 oz per 25g) and 150% on days thereafter (3 oz per 25g) if you want a fighting chance with this med. You should make sure that you have enough of the medication on hand since 2 liters don't go to far for tanks over 100g. Again, caution on SPS reef tanks. I would not use it due to RTN possibilities.

I researched a thread dated back to '99 where Ruby Reef actually participated and stated that the dosing directions are actually the minimal amounts required.

[jimmyj7090]

I'm at the end of a full hypo treatment, thought I would share.

set up QT, began catching fish which took about 2 weeks. Each fish got a 1 mon FW dip before going into the QT, kept the qt at normal SG for another 1-2 wks after all fish were in, then dropped to 1.007-1.008 over 7 days. Kept at 1.007-1.008, with a max high of almost 1.009, daily testing. Fish will have been at that level for 42 days as of 10/31. 2 35% water changes were done during the hypo period (with matched water of course)

No apparent signs of Ick by the time the salinity was dropped (Infection in tank was started by one new fish which was quicly removed, but about 10 days later other fish showed spots so the initial infection wasn't very advanced)

OT is a 75G with sump and ER skimmer.
fish that went in to OT
purple tang
PBT
CBB
6-line
bi color blenny
yellow watchman
green clown goby
yellow colwn goby
Pair of true percs
pair of maroons (seperated from the percs but in the same tank)
2 sm rabbitfish

All are looking great except a couple of losses, probablly stress and the massive overcrowding, these two never started feeding much and were lost early on.
**I'm not lying, I really have had all those fish in a hospital for all this time and they're doing great, I even purchased the PBT and to add to the crowd going into the hospital since they are known to be extra prone to getting and showing signs of ICK, call it a barometer**(or an irresponsible jerk)

losses
yellow watchman
yellow clown goby

SG will begin to go back up slowly on 11/1. The display will have been fish free for a min of 8.5 weeks before the fish go back in.

I'll update with how it goes
jk

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by pecan2phat
Again, caution on SPS reef tanks. I would not use it due to RTN possibilities.


they claim the product is "reef safe" and i am presuming that they make that claim based only on manufacturers stated dosing directions (2oz/25g).

[pecan2phat]

When I treated my SPS reef tank, the stated dosage of 2 oz per 25 gallons was adhered to.
The "load" dose & 150% thereafter doses were for my FOWLR that I am still treating at this moment.

[tjay]

Just checking back in on this thread, for those who dont remember we did hypo and a fallow main in our quest for an ich free tank.
Later Katrina put our fish through some major stress that they are still going through. We lost all but our Nasso, a clown, and a damsel. None of those fish have lapsed back to ich. I do not think you could stress a nasso more than
7 days no light, high 80s, no food, no filtration in a 90 with dying fish and corals
a move to a 45 gallon via buckets
A move to dallas in buckets
and still no ich.
Stress will not cause ich in an uninfected clean tank.

We are going back to Dallas Monday on our final trip from New Orleans to Dallas, moving truck with the remainder of our belongings.

We took the move time, to change to a reef ready tank and add a sump/refugium
Today I picked up an ozonizer, not to control ich but to work on water purity as I venture into SPS.

Stick to proven methods, and fight the temtation to cut corners. It will burn you every time. It can be done

[Triggerfish]

tjay - glad to hear you are getting things back together...good luck..

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Yes , good luck!

[tjay]

Hey folks anyone here run a sump? Off topic but I need a simple question answered. does the drain line have to be bigger than the return?

[pecan2phat]

Your drain line is typically at least 33% larger than your return line. Standard on a 55g to 180g AGA tank would be 1" drain with a 3/4" return. I use a 1.5" drain with multiple 3/4" returns. Is there a rule? That I am not sure of.

[guyguerra]

Jimmy, you might already be planning on this, but keeping the fish for one or two more weeks after you bring the salinity up will give better proof that the Ich is gone. I agree with tjay, after successful treatment of my fish, none of the moves or stress ever made Ich appear again. I have felt that this was proof positive to me that tanks do not inherently have Ich, and makes me disagree with those that say it's always present and waiting for stress to bring it out. Just a brief stray off topic, tjay, we've got a post going here addressing emergency back up power supply's to aquariums at http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5998552#post5998552 , you might have some good advice from all you've experienced.

[plaz]

We are thinking of getting a whole house generator to run essentials including my home office, fridge and freezer (my tank is of course the # one essential:-)! Home Depot carries a Generac Guardian (12K or 15K) and a QuietSource (10K). At the lowere 10K end, the Quietsource is still a little bit more expensive. Does anyone know how quiet they are compared to the Guardian? Noise is a concern - we don't want to drive the neighbors (or us:-) crazy - and excessive noise really drives me crazy!

Thanks for any info!

PS If we get this installed, I'm also going to get them to put on a whole house surge protector. This is the one I'm looking at - http://www.pcconnection.com/ProductDetail?sku=4750378&SourceID=k40132

If anyone knows about those or any brand, please advise.

[plaz]

Sorry - posted the generator questions in the wrong thread. I don't know how to move it, but copied it to guy's thread.

[jimmyj7090]

guyguerra,

thanks for the thought.

I am actually planning on bringing the salinity up over 2 weeks, then I have a second QT set up at normal SG and fairly good light so I can give each fish an observation period, one by one, before returning to the displlay. I was thinking along the lines of giving each fish (or pair of clowns) a week of observation in the secondary QT after a week or so of observation in the current hosp at normal SG.

Does this sound like a good approach, or would you suggest any mods to that plan?

Also, being the identified "ICK magnet" do you think the PBT should go in first or last?
(I know it's usually reccomended to put them in last in general, but this one is quite peaceful and all these guys are going from a 75g hosp to a 120 display so I'm not too worried about new found aggression)

What do you think?

jk

[kimoyo]

Triggerfish (or anyone)-

Earlier in the thread you said you thought ich can live or be transported on rock. If thats so, can it also be transported or live on/in inverts? I'm specifically wondering about snails and shrimp. If coralline algae can be transported through the stomach of snails I'm just wondering what else can since we cant put inverts thru a hypo or copper treatment?

Also, what effect does a hyposalinity treatment have on coralline algae and the biological filter if any at all?

Thanks.

[guyguerra]

Jimmy, I think your plan sounds very good. When I finally rid my tanks of Ich last year I did a similar procedure. If I understand yours, you will bring the salinity up in the tank that they are being treated in, then leave them there for two weeks to make sure the Ich isn't dormant in the low salinity, then if it doesn't come back, you'll move them to a second tank for two weeks, which will act as a semi-transfer method and get them out of the treated tank to make sure, once and for all, that it's gone. I wager BIG bets that after all that, your fish can go back in the display and you WILL NOT HAVE ICH in that group. I haven't had a Powder Blue Tang, so am of no help there.

kimoyo, there several threads that show convincing reasons to QT corals, inverts, LR and anything else that came from any tank that hasn't been fallow for 8 weeks. There is one gentleman that says he transferred Ich into his tank not once, but twice, by transplanting macro algae from an infected tank, and another that says he got it from some LR that a friend of his gave him. Particularly LR, where the parasite can adhere in it's dormant stage, only to open up and spread in your tank. The only option here is to fallow it in a tank that has not had copper used in it. This seems to get very work intensive, and I have not done it yet, but since my 230 is just about complete, I will use these precautions on the last items I add and be thankful for some of the luck I've had when I added corals and inverts. I am close friends with the owner of my LFS and will be discussing the reasoning for keeping their coral tanks fallow. I always see a fish or two in them and wonder why.

[plaz]

Yes, anything can bring it in. Even a drop of water on your hand.

As far as the LFS, two problems with depending on them (even if they do as you ask):
1) Their plumbing is probably all connected (same water used in multiple tanks).
2) If they add any corals or snails, you would have to start the time clock over. You would likely never have 4 weeks where they didn't add anything.

[kimoyo]

Guyguerra - Thanks for your input. I just started my tank and put some fish, shrimp and snails in to only find that ich got into the system somehow. So before I get corals I was planning on doing a hypotreatment with the fish in the main display.

But just so I understand this correctly. If I move all my shrimp and snails to a QT with no fish for 8 weeks, it should rid those guys of the ich?

I was planning on qt'ing (not for 8 weeks though) my corals when I add them for other reasons but does this mean we should do those for 8 weeks also?

At this point after having to remove one of my tangs for black ich (so hard to catch him) I'm willing to do whatever preventive action is needed. But I don't want to be in the situation that Triggerfish is in where after a 2-3 treatments, ich still comes back.

Will a hypo treatment for 6 weeks rid the main display (with rocks) of ich?

Will the hypo treatment affect the biological filter?

[kimoyo]

Originally posted by plaz
Yes, anything can bring it in. Even a drop of water on your hand.
I wish I would have read about these problems before I got fish. I'm glad this happened now though before I got corals. It has also made me think about how I will introduce corals with the pests that can affect or be transported by them.

Are there any other diseases that I should look for or think about treating for now?

[guyguerra]

I am afraid to put too much emphasis on my own opinion, and a search for "Ich" on this site will pull up hundreds of threads, but I am going to state what I would do and the reasons why. I'll qualify my approach only by saying that I spent many, many hours researching Ich with anyone that would talk to me about it and anything I could read about it, and I fought it several ways. Heres what I would do if I were in your shoes, though others may have different opinions, and be equally correct. There is no one way to deal with this, but heres my feelings on it.

I would not treat the main tank at all, I would fallow it. Eight weeks will break the Ich cycle and the parasite will not be able to survive without it's host's. My reason for fallowing the tank is that you do not want to slow down the growth on your live rock or your live sand. You will be pleased with how well your rock developes over 8 weeks without fish in the tank. Hypo on your LR will probably kill off some of the growth that you want to keep. Another advantage is that we all keep our displays in the main areas of our homes. I would rather see my LR developing and see my inverts than look at a hospital tank every night. You can also add your corals during this time. Your display will not feel like dooms day. You will not have to worry about hurting your bio system, though hypo or copper will not hurt it anyway.

I would treat the fish in a separate tank, and I would use Cupramine. Use Seachems test kit. Make sure the tank is large enough and the filtration is good enough to keep the tank stable. I would continue that treatment for 6 weeks after you see the last spot. Then I would pull the copper out of the tank for two weeks to make sure the Ich doesn't re-appear once the copper isn't killing it. I used hypo at 11 ppt and found that the strain I had was immune to low salinity. I was exact in my testing daily with a refractometer. Copper works, period. I spent 6 weeks wasting time trying hypo, then went to Cupramine and finally beat it.

I am no expert, and there are a lot of more experienced people than me on this site, but I fought it, researched it, and beat it and now have an Ich free tank.


Guy

[kimoyo]

guyguerra - thanks for your input, I appreciate it. I was thinking about the copper method but there are a couple of things stopping me.

I didn't start out with LR, just base rock that I have been seeding with coralline and building up my nitrosomonas and nitrobacter cycling bacteria with. Will the hypo bother either of these?

But the main problem is I don't have a separate tank big enough and with enough equipment that I feel I can house my fish for 8 weeks properly.

So I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have.

I also thought about removing the live rock from the system and doing the copper treatment but I have read that its better to do hypo because it is not toxic.

Has the hypo actually worked for people?

Thanks.

[kimoyo]

Hey Dennis,

Yep thats because I brought my fish online and didn't quarantine them when they got here. The problems came with the fish and I'm doing what I can now to correct the issues before they become severe. All the fish in my tank look healthy except for one. He's a low swimmer and was the one who developed black ich the other day. After giving him a freshwater dip he's still scratching. Most of the spots are gone but I am concerned about regular ich with him also. My only regret was not reading and asking questions about these diseases sooner.

As far as nosickfish, I was waiting for pecan2phat to come back with his opinions on it before I thought about using it.

Thanks.

[kimoyo]

Who do you buy from? Having a second temporary tank (QT) is something I should have done.

[guyguerra]

Paul, I would say that the hyposalinity would probably be your best option then. It does work for a lot of people. For accurate hypo you'll need a refractor and want to set the salinity at 11ppt.
I looked up nofishsick on this site to see what people were saying about it and it wasn't very good. I recommend you do a search on it and read the threads. Let us know how the hypo does for you. Good Luck, Guy

[ryan utterback]

I’ve never paid much attention to these forums. Occasionally I’d pop in when I had a problem. I just ran across this link and thought I would share my opinion after reading atomikks post. I could feel his excitement. I remembered how much of a pain ich was for me in the past. I’ve tried a lot of treatments, some worked better then others, but ich always seemed to come back. Since then things are different. I also have used no sick fish’s ich treatment. I treated my tank 9 months ago, which was the last time I’ve seen ich in my tank. I also passed along my bottle to a friend 4 months ago. Worked great for her as well. She has been ich free since. We both have full reef tanks. Inverts, live rock- the whole 9 yards. Such a little bottle, yet it treats 300 plus gallons. Good stuff. That’s my 2 cents. Best of luck to all.

[Triggerfish]

again, still waiting for one of the nosick spammers to list what is in that little bottle???????????
also, why is it that most of your posts get deleted from this board. :D

Brief Update Kick Ich

this round of the infectious stage of the cycle was the worst yet. my angel has had spots for about a week straight, with friday am being far the worst..wasn't looking good,i was getting ready for a full major outbreak.
friday am the angel was loaded with visible ich spots-worst in past 6 months.

i blasted the tank with 1st dose of 'kick ich' friday night..
normally the fish would look much worse in the AM.

fri pm - 5 fish visibly infected
sat am - 1 spot-angel
sun am - none
mon am - none -- no fish display any Trophonts

although only 3 days,,this is not what i expected from this product. or maybe it has nothing to do with the kick ich and perhaps the c.irritans are just changing up their typical duration of cycle stages-(unlikely).

since this infection entered the system, once my angel became infected all over, the fish would always show trophont spots; just less of them on certain days, but would always have them..
now he has not had any for 3 days.. i really think it's doing something here.. at the very least it has perhaps decreased part of the free swimming population.

Possible negative side effect
Snails- they seem to be slightly effected. seem to be falling more frequently and not moving around as much..

2nd dose was administered last night.

[guyguerra]

Paul, here's the threads I mentioned with comments about nosickfish.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=631757&highlight=nosickfish


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=633529&highlight=nosickfish

[guyguerra]

Paul, here's the threads I mentioned with comments about nosickfish.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=631757&highlight=nosickfish


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=633529&highlight=nosickfish

[AquAsylum]

Well, the thread sure has been busy over the past few days!

For the newer posters, here is a much-abbreviated recap of our ich experience to date:
In mid-June, we discovered the ich outbreak in the display. We had not used any QT procedures for our livestock. I moved all fish to QT and proceeded with hypo treatment. Water was kept at 11 ppt, measured several times per day with a refractometer, and the hypo treatment lasted six weeks after the last spot sighting, for a total of closer to nine weeks. Salinity was increased over one week. After the increase, the fish's health declined, and especially the tangs looked very poor. I believe it was a combination of bacterial infection and HLLE. So, two weeks after increase, the fish were reintroduced to display. The display had been fallow a total of 11 weeks.

One week after the return to the display, the hippo tang showed ich. I freaked out. Then I decided to calm down. Rather than destroy the tank again, we have chosen to go a few rounds with Kick Ich. We are on the second 14 day treatment and all is well. Not to say there are no spots, but I only saw 1 spot this weekend. Still on the hippo. As far as I can tell, no other fish has developed ich. We have been back in the display for 5 weeks (?) now. The other afflictions have vanished, general health being excellent. When we run out of Kick Ich, I may try RxP (I have a large bottle on hand), and if the ich returns, I'll go from there.

So, no, hypo did NOT work for us.

------
In other news-

Trigger, I'm glad to hear you are seeing improvement. At least we know what Kick Ich is made of ;)

Regarding nosickfish...I read the threads from the links that guy posted, and it is pretty irritating. Even IF, and that's a big IF, their product is the miracle they claim it is, they are doing a horrible job of promoting it. They should be up front about the treatment (what the heck is in it?) and not harass us. Harassment makes me so much less likely to buy something. Seriously, lay off, people!

I am glad to see that "farmboy" (conjures up bad imagery and sympathy for sheep) was regulated and had posts deleted. I hope that the ID "NSF" is carefully watched.

[kimoyo]

AquAsylum - Thanks for the recap. Did you have any life in the display during those 11 weeks and did you introduce any new rocks or inverts?

Did you feel the ich lasted in the display or the QT with the fish?

[AquAsylum]

Paul-

The only life in the display was the live rock (we really got to know our bristle worms) and two small corals- a little colony of zoos and a green leather. The zoos were added about 3 weeks in, so there was still an 8 week fallow period after their introduction.

I have no idea where the ich survived. I am more inclined to think it was in the display, perhaps in the sandbed. I say this only because there was absolutely no visible ich on the fish in QT, even after 2 weeks of normal salinity.

[Triggerfish]

Laura - nice recap... damn if this kick ich stuff works with little to no side effects that would be something..
sounds like you're just about getting there...great news.
i think the next couple days will give me a better indication if things will continue to improve.

[jeffbrig]

A couple more weeks of hypo, 1 hurricane, 6 days without power - it's definitely time for an update.

We took a direct hit from hurricane Wilma and were in the southeastern eye wall (the bad side of this storm). Fortunately, we were well prepared, with a 7000w generator (and a decent supply of gas), 3 UPS devices, and battery powered air pumps as a last line of resort. With a bit of work, we were able to maintain the display and QTs with no losses.

55g QT - Achilles tang.
Hypo started 9/22 (39 days ago)
No visible ich ~10/3 (28 days ago - possibly more)
The tang acted a little strange during the hurricane fallout, and we were concerned for a few days. Could have been stress due to change in flow, reduced feeding, shorter lighting period, or even temperature fluctions (normally 80, down to 75). He wasn't eating with gusto, and was hiding and sometimes laying on his side behind the PVC. I brought up the temperature to 78, started feeding regularly, put the lighting back on a regular schedule and he seems fine. Now that power is restored, he seems no worse for wear.

10g QT - Clowns
Hypo started 9/22 (39 days ago)
Brooklynella treated successfully with Formalin dips
Fin-rot treated successfully with Maracyn2
These guys are probably about ready to start moving back to normal salinity levels. They started hypo in the 55g, but were moved to their own QT when brook started to appear. The clowns never showed any signs of ich, but remained in hyposalinity just to be safe. The little clown's tail has regenerated nicely, the black border around the edge is just starting to become visible. They made it through the hurricane without issue.

[guyguerra]

Laura, it's nice to here from the folks that started this thread. You've accumulated a lot of knowledge and the results are there for all of us to see. I fell the same way as you. I don't feel that hypo is as conclusive or thorough as copper. But it does have it's place. I'm am a Cupramine fan, but others seem to work well too. I ran into the same thing with my Hippo Tang and it finally died. I think this fish has a much greater chance of letting Ich live it's coarse in closed tanks and I will never add one again because of that. This thread has been very helpful to a lot of us, so thanks for starting it. I posted a note to the moderator about farmboy after I saw the other threads that he was rejected from. Ich is a very serious problem for most aquarists and the information on this thread has had great integrity and needs to stay that way. I am really curious what the final feeling will be on Kick Ick, in case it ever does appear in my reef, that will probably be my only option. I will pay very close attention to how you and others do with it. Guy

[pecan2phat]

I was one of "those" guys that posted that I am trying NSF but after getting a bash of "not being surprised if I reported back the next day with a miracle cure", I was hesitant to even state any experience with the product.
For those that do want to know, I am on day 5 of the NSF treatment and it doesn't seem to slow down the progression of the infection. It has actually gotten worse with a lose of a Majestic angel on day 4.
I've used KI on and off for a few years even though my local LFS states that it doesn't work. I always ask why he carries it then, his reply is that people continually ask for it. It's a $40 product for a 2 liter bottle locally & if you happen to stay prepared, then you can obtain it for about $23 online.
I've had success with KI when the infestation is noticed very early on but never when the infestation has hit hard. I recently used KI on three occassions this year & my results are mixed. On a full blown SPS reef tank, there was no capturing the fish for treatment so either let the parasite run it's course or try KI. Since it's always my tangs that get it bad, I dosed as per instruction on the 1st, 3rd, 5th day, on day 8, I started to notice my Caps RTN'ing and then also some Acros. I stopped and performed a 25% water change , turned on my skimmer and added carbon. Needless to say, I lost 3 tangs shortly after but my Regal angel, Wrasses, Clowns & Anthias survived. They show some light signs of the parasite still in the water column but this has been for the last 3 months. Since the Wrasses & the Anthias do occasionally scratch, I decided to try the NSF. But this was not my guaging factor. The prime reason why I wanted to try another product was because of my fustration with Ruby Reef's products that I was also using on my FOWLR. The reef, I basically left alone but stupidity and carelessness caused me to transfer the parasite into my FOWLR back in Sept. I started with the 1st 14 day treatment at prescribed dosage and no luck. I wait 2 days perform a 17% water change and start up another 14 day treatment but dosed every other day for 7 doses. Towards the middle of the 2nd treatment, I reseached a thread regarding KI that the manufacturer had participated in & realized that the prescribed dosage is actually a minimal amount that the product would have any positive results. The thread went on to talk about doubling the dosage was a waste of money and that 1.5 x was effective if your tank had a " large excess of biofiltration capacity which lead to unusually rapid degradation of Kick-Ich reagents. So I increased the dosage to 1.5 x, turned off my UV (which I though would help) & started 2 treatments of Rally due to noticeable secondary bacterial infections.
So treatment #2 is finished with no positive results, I perform another 17% water change two days after treatment #2 and start treatment #3. I dose again, 1.5 x on days 1, 3, & 5 and NSF comes in the mail. I double check by sending an email to the manufacturer regarding RTN issues with Acros & they respond that their product was tested with Acros and no negative effects. So the next day I start with NSF in my reef (that hasn't had any treatments since July) and also with my heavily infested FOWLR tank.
As I stated above, this is day 5 and the product has not shown any positive results. I doubt if an additional 2 days will change things but I'll continue the treatment to see. (especially for the reef tank).
FWIW, in early Sept., I treated my office tank which is a 55g FOWLR with mushrooms and the 14 day prescribed treatment and dosage (2 oz. per 25 gallons) was adhered to with an additional dosage on day 16 and it actually worked. The mushrooms started to not open as much during the treatment but they are fully recovered now.
Seems like from July till present has been a bad 3 months for me & ick. The last time I had ick was after the east coast blackout in '02

[AquAsylum]

Guy- I hope we are able to give good reports on Kick Ich. I think that what we may find out is that it is a good treatment while the ich runs through the longer life cycle, but not necessarily a cure. If I have to keep dosing it until I hit a year, it will get quite expensive!!

Also wanted to clarify that, although I have participated in this thread since June, I did not start it. Thanks for that go to Triggerfish, plaz, and tjay.

Pecan- thank you very much for sharing your experiences with both Kick Ich and NSF. I don't think any offense was meant by the "miracle" comment, especially considering that you are a bona fide RC member with a lot of posts. I think this will be the first honest report about NSF that any of us have read. For the sake of your tank, I had hoped it would be everything its makers claim.

[Triggerfish]

pecan - sorry to hear about your recent loss. also no 'direct' offense regarding your attempted usage of the
"private proprietary mystery bottle".
the ridiculous spamming marketing attempts on this board are annoying.

so far day 4 of kick ich treatment and no sign of parasite,,i believe the product supposedly kills the "free swimming tomites". so the system at the very least is still harvesting cysts,,but hopefully as treatment continues the rupturing cysts are destroyed.
just not sure how long this treatment will need to continue for.

i'm wondering if you could remove your sps and try to treat again.
i'll keep a look out and remove anything that starts to RTN,,as it's tough to stop once it takes hold..

your comment regarding effective dosage is interesting.. i came across another marine ich write up that suggested the following:
http://www.reef-aquarium.net/resources/disease/ich.html
"5-Nitroimidazoles- I found these to be moderately successful against Cryptocaryon, although it required twice as many applications as the manufacturer stated on the instructions to affect a complete cure."

My thoughts on this are the following:
1. active ingredient 5-Nitroimidazoles, kills the free-swimming stage(tomites)
2. Directions indicate to treat for 13 days
3. ich cyst(tomonts) can last up to 28 days in tropical water temps
4. you would probably need to treat for at least 30 days to have a major impact on fully eradicating the c.irritans.
5. raising temp in tank to possibly speed up lifecycle to rupture more cysts

i actually have another 2L bottle of this stuff on the way..the 1st shipment arrived damaged and 1/4L spilled out.. for that they are shipping out another 2L bottle at no charge.

good luck, hope conditions improve.

[Triggerfish]

Kick Ich Update: Week 1

Infection cycle: Angel would show spots every day to every other day when fish has been infected in main tank over the past 6 months.

kick Ich - Round 1 Dosing(11oz/Dose)
skimmer turned off, carbon removed
All dosing done in pm
10/28 - 1st dose: 5 fish visibly infected - Angel worst yet
10/30 - 2nd dose: no ich visible
11/2 - 3rd dose: no ich visible

[guyguerra]

Triggerefish, could you give us a very brief synopsis of the methods and results of treatment you've done? I've gone back thru the threads, but am lost in overload. It seems like you've tried both hypo and copper and after putting the fish back in the display, Ich came back, and now you are leaving them in the display and using KickIch to keep the parasite at bay. I'd like to understand more of what you've done. If I ever see Ich in my main display, I believe I would leave the fish alone and try something like KickIch to give them a chance to outlive it. Thanks for your time, Guy

[Triggerfish]

Hey guy-
my prior treatment attempts were filled with issues.
i was having a hard time quarantining all the fish in 1 tank.

Treatment 1: Hypo
once i got the refractometer, i maintained the sg as close to 1.008-1.009 as i could monitor.
Result: never could confirm that the ich was gone. it just seemed to pop back up 1 small spot at a time - gave up after 4 weeks.

Put angel back in tank and ich showed up after tank was 5 weeks fallow. No patience on 1st attempt.
fish removed once again..

Treatment 2: Copper
Copper 3 weeks, once began to carbon out - ich reappeared.
perhaps it was a dosage issue.
Copper 3 weeks again, possibly reappeared after about 10 days of removing. basically this fish was not quarantined for the full 6 weeks after the last spot was noticed. it was quarantined for 5 weeks then another 10 or so..it just seemed like it would never get back in the tank.

Possible reasons Ich reappearing again in main tank:
1. 8 weeks fallow not enough
2. ich still on fish when reintroduced - suspects=asfur, clown
3. added some unquarantined LPS from infected tank - the bases were scrubbed only
4. added some unquarantined SPS from tank that had fish

i had 4 quarantine tanks going at one time and everything was mayhem... 2 of my tanks sg got up to 1.035 as i was forgetting that i was adding saltwater for topoff. i was losing my mind.
my main tank was suffering as well..

[jeffbrig]

Well, I finally decided I'm calling the treatment complete. The achilles tang has been showing signs of stress for the last few days. I've done two 50% water changes, and he seems to be improving. It seems the biological filter in the QT was damaged (probably because the biowheel was off periodically when I was running on generator power after the hurricane). Although ammonia looked ok when I tested this weekend, I did see nitrite, which is not a good sign.

Hypo since 9/22 - 46 days

The clowns never showed visible ich. The tang showed several spots at the start, which dropped off after a few days. A spot on one side fin seemed to persist. Not sure if it was ich or a persistent bubble. I posted on here that he was perfectly clean on 10/3, which was 35 days ago. Based on the life cycle numbers for ich, he was probably clean a few days prior to that.

So, now I'm bringing salinity up between 1-2 thousands each day. Then we'll observe for another week or so and see how they do.

[guitarfish]

How will you bring the SG back up? I find that to be the biggest pain in the whole process.

[Triggerfish]

Kick Ich Update: Round 1 Dosing

kick Ich - Round 1 Dosing(11oz/Dose)
skimmer turned off, carbon removed
All dosing done in pm
10/28 - 1st dose: 5 fish visibly infected - Angel worst yet
10/30 - 2nd dose: no ich visible
11/1 - 3rd dose: no ich visible
11/2 - 10g sump overflow - added 6oz to make up for loss
11/3 - 4th dose - Major spot outbreak
11/4 - 5th dose

Summary
>Round 2 dosing will begin tonight (16.5oz/dose)
> Visible ich on at least 4 fish for 5 consecutive days
>fish continue to feed steadily
>I suspect it's only going to get worse
>garlic added to all feedings = no visible help
>3 cleaner gobies = do nothing
>future plan - if there is one it's still undecided


Side Notes:
the tank is need of a major water change. i was adding some old salt makup water (bit of an odor) that i think is the cause of some of my acro RTN loss and the snails not doing well at all.
I do not want to dilute the kick ich that is in there now and will wait until round 2 dosing is finished to see if the infection has decreased prior to doing a 30% water change.
However, I've pretty much thrown any hopes of a possible kick ich remedy out the window anyway...

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by guitarfish
How will you bring the SG back up? I find that to be the biggest pain in the whole process.

Water changes using higher sg water.

If my tank is 1.010 and I want to raise it to 1.012, I can do a 50% water change with 1.014 water, or do a 25% water change with 1.018 water. You can play around with the numbers and calculate it any way you want. I actually set up a spreadsheet in Excel to do the calculations for me.

I don't mind doing a series of water changes - it helps the water quality in the QT. I pull aged sw from my display tank, replace with freshly mixed, then dilute the sw with RO/DI to get it to the sg I want for the QT.

[Triggerfish]

here is the link for raising the sg.
i believe it is done with removing water, adding the salt then replacing same water.

http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SalinityAdjust.php

[guitarfish]

I recently started adding salt to a QT tank, by mixing the salt in a bucket and letting it sit overnight. Well, before long my reef chromis looked real bad!! Turns out the salt wasn't completely dissolved, and was causing tissue damage. Lesson learned. From now on I will definitely have to age the water better.

[jimmyj7090]

I'm bringing my salinity back up this week. I'm doing it by keeping a 55G barrel with a pump and heater, with the salinity at 1.030. I use this to change 5-10 gal a day out of the QT (about 85G with sump).

Fish are looking great, up to 1.020 today.

[guyguerra]

The link Triggerfish gave is perfect for raising salinity. You can decide how much you want to increase salinity per water change based on the gallons of the change and it will tell you the salinity of the mixture required. saltyzoo is a great resource. Takes ALL the guess work away.

As a side note, I put up a picture in my gallery of a group of fish that I am treating with Cupramine for Ich. The reason I mention it is that so many people feel they need to go bare bottom and PVC fittings. I really disagree with this and believe it puts undue stress on the fish. These fish are 2 weeks into treatment, Ich is gone, and the Cupramine levels are staying steady. They probably don't even know they are being treated.

[tjay]

I used that calculator for bringing mine out, worked perfectly
earlier in this thread are some tips for using it

[guitarfish]

Well, here we go...just started dropping my QT tonight. I have a new coral beauty (got 5 days ago), a firefish goby and a couple reef chromis in it. It's a well-established QT. I'm figuring a minimum of 6 weeks in hypo. Wish me well !

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/guitarfish/Fish/20gQT.jpg

[guyguerra]

guitarfish, first I have to say I love the name. If you click on my www redhouse you'll see my wife's website. We are musicians, own a recording studio (Hurricane Recording) and both play guitar.
Have your fish shown signs of Ich or is this a precaution? I looked back in the threads but didn't see anything, maybe I didn't go back far enough.
I have 4 firefish goby's in my QT right now. I also had a Coral Beauty, but it died after 4 days. The firefish (and a Kole Tang) have done great with Cupramine and are not showing anymore signs of Ich. I'll be curious how the hypo does for you and how the Coral Beauty does with it. I couldn't be sure if the treatment affected him, or if he was a dead fish swimming when I bought him. The others look and act great.

[DMCQ]

Has anyone ever tried the following to get rid of itch?

Two days ago (Sunday) I bought a Blood Red Fire Shrimp a hermit crab and the next day my two regal tangs, copper band and Heniochus Black and White Butterflyfish (Longfin Bannerfish) all have itch. I was reading up on itch and it needs a water temperature of 24-27 degrees to survive so if I was to increase the temperature to 29-30 would this work and also do water changes cleaning the sand for of all tomonts?

Has any one ever tried this with effect?
I don’t have a spare tank so can’t hospitalise the FISH and I have inverts and coral so can’t Hypo salinity Treatment

My tank list is

Fish
4 clown fish (2 black 2 false percula)
2 regal tangs
1 copper band butterfly
1 black and white banner fish
1 Royal Gramma Basslet
1 Black Cap Basslet
1 Neon Goby
1 Yellow & Purple Wrasse
1 sleeper blue dot goby
Inverts
3 blue legged hermit crabs
1 red legged hermit crab
1 skunk shrimp
1 blood red fire shrimp
Coral
Leather finger coral
I’m feeding my fish garlic with there food to increase there immune system and hope they can fight it off with out dying.

Any other suggestions would be great

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by guyguerra
As a side note, I put up a picture in my gallery of a group of fish that I am treating with Cupramine for Ich. The reason I mention it is that so many people feel they need to go bare bottom and PVC fittings. I really disagree with this and believe it puts undue stress on the fish.

I think a bare QT is more important if you're using hyposalnity or other non-copper based methods. Having a bare tank and syphoning it regularly will remove most of the ich cysts during their reproductive phase, which increases your chance for success. With copper it's not such an issue, proper coppper therapy is lethal to ich no matter what substrate may be present. Just be sure you don't re-use that rock with inverts in the future, and you will be just fine.

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by DMCQ
I was reading up on itch and it needs a water temperature of 24-27 degrees to survive so if I was to increase the temperature to 29-30 would this work and also do water changes cleaning the sand for of all tomonts?


I haven't seen anything from the experts indicating that a slightly elevated temperature would be a successful treatment option. My understanding is that the life cycle may speed up, so the visible spots may drop off your fish faster, but then they will simply reproduce and come back with a vengeance. Not an effective cure, IMO.

[guitarfish]

guyguerra - my two favorite hobbies, guitars & fish, hence the name. :cool:

The firefish had a few spots of ich. I decided to get one more fish (the CB) before taking the tank down to hypo. Kill two birds with one stone, so to speak, by doing a few fish together. I had a CB once before and did hypo on her, no issues. I think they key things are avoiding drastic changes, and monitoring things closely.

DMCQ - it's "ich", not "itch". Not being picky, just thought I'd mention that. Ich is short for Ichthyophthirius (type that a few times...) which is actually a freshwater parasite.

The things you suggested may remove some of the parasites from your system, but by and large will not rid you of the problem. As so many threads will attest, people have tried all sorts of things. The only two things that work consistently are copper or hyposalinity, both of which are fairly involved IMO.

[bronzeback42]

I am a fisheries biologist working on the Ohio River and surround tributaries. Since I am involved with sampling fish out of these waters, I put together my own personal voucher fish tank at my apartment. I have a 55 gallon setup which houses numerous types of sunfish, southern red bellied dace, a central stoneroller, raindow darters and crappies. Like most people, when my tanks came under illness I went to the pet shops and asked them what I can do to help combat ich as well as tail rot. So I bought some treatments from the pet shops and tried to see if they would help cure my fish. Most of the ich treatments required me to remove the charcoal filter and they also stained my tank blue. During this time my fish didn't seem to recover very much at all from Ich or tail rot. I was getting frustrated from losing my vouchered fish so I decided to try and see what other types of fish treatments are out there. This is when I came across NO-SICK-FISH fish treatments. After I tried just about everything over the counter, decided to go ahead and go for it. My crappies that were in my tank were the worst off at the beginning. They had Ich all over them and I could tell weren't going to make it much longer. I used the ich and tail rot treatments from No-Sick-Fish as directed. In just 4 days my crappies were almost completely ich free and the tail rot was completely gone. I continued to use the treatment for the required 7 days. That was 2 weeks ago. Everything in my tank now is completely healthy and there is no signs of ich or tail rot. Besides the fact that the treatments cured everything in such quick time, I also liked the fact that I could leave in my filters and didn't have to worry about changing the water afterwards. This product is awesome. My fish are doing great and in my profession, thats all I can ask for.

[guitarfish]

RE: NO SICK FISH treatment

You're talking about freshwater fish, right?

[plaz]

I'm glad it worked for you - but aren't those all freshwater fish? I think ich is a very different beast in Marine Fish.

[Triggerfish]

1 post marketing....

[pecan2phat]

Triggerfish,

Be careful with the Kick-Ick and acros. As I had mentioned, I started to lose quite a few acros and almost all my monti caps when I treated my SPS tank back in July. It only took about 8 days into the treatment when I noticed the RTN'ing.

When I get my notes together, I'll update on my use of Kick-Ick, Kick-Ick with Rally and NSF in both the 120g SPS reef tank and also the 90g FOWLR tank.

[Triggerfish]

yeah,,i've been keeping an eye on that.. my cap seems ok..although color is a bit dull lately..
i am having trouble with 1 blue tip acro...although it could be from the bad water i was using...
thanks

[jeff72081]

I am a Fishery Scientist/Biologist that samples Freshwater Fish for a Living. I Have a 55 gallon tank that I like to keep my fish in which has around 35 to 40 fish in it ranging from darters to shiners. I had a bad problem with ick and fungus for a while which i tried to combat with popular treatments from pet stores. I lost all my fish due to ick. i tried nearly everything I could find. I tried elevating water temperatures, changing all the water, disease treatments, and getting all new fish. it seems that it is just difficult to get a correct balance for a heathly fish community. after loosing all my fish twice i decided something had to be done i looked to a company out of Saint paul Minnesota called No Sick Fish. I tried their product and was amazed how well it worked. i did not have to remove my filters and neither did the treatment stain my tank. To my understanding this product was intended for saltwater use but works equally well for freshwater. When i started this treatment my new fish already developed ick and was completely covered with the infamous white crystallike deposits on the scales. After three days i could already tell a huge improvement. My fished looked healthier than ever. to this day I have never lost another fish. I highly recommend you give this product a try.

[AquAsylum]

Trigger, how do we report this crap?

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by jeff72081
After three days i could already tell a huge improvement.

lol..after only 2 days with kick ich my fish had a huge improvement.. you should have seen them after day 5. :D

btw: What's in it??? has anyone ever figured it out yet.....

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by bronzeback42
blah, blah, blah

Originally posted by jeff72081
99% identical blah, blah, blah

Gee, what an amazing coincidence. Two people with such similar backgrounds and almost identical experiences joined on the exact same day to post identical stories within minutes of each other.

What a bunch of morons! They don't even realize they're spamming the same thread....and on a REEF forum no less.

I'm posting a link in the feedback forum to see if we can get these people (and their IPs) blocked.

[guyguerra]

I apologize if I'm wrong, but is bronzeback42, ryan utterback and farmboy all the same guy? You won't find farmboy since he was booted, but these all look the same.

DMCQ, I tried raising temps and vacuuming daily while using hypo. It was a lot of work, and didn't work for me. I would agree with jeffBrig that a bear bottom tank would be essential to a daily vacuuming program, which doesn't sound possible with your display tank.
I never thought I'd say this but I wonder if kick ich and just supporting the fish to be healthy might be your best bet.

[jimmyj7090]

this is truely funny.

A. #### #### doesn't even realize they are spamming the same thread.

B. #### #### who is obviously selling or trying to help selling a certain product doesn't even know enough about the relevant subject to know that the FW and SW parisites are completely different organisims.

C. Did I say this is funny?

D. way to undermine the potential success of your money making snake oil?

[jimmyj7090]

Oh yea,

just to update if anyone is paying attention to my story,

after Hypo treatment, my fish are back to 1.024 today and all look great. My purple tang has a slight discoloration on his pectoral fins, one whitish area on each fin, both in the same place. The symetry of the discolorations makes me think this is normal and I'm just paranoid right now, but the appearance of the discolorations makes me concerned that I'm seeing spots again.

I'm thinking I'll give the fish 14 days at NSW, SG levels in the hospital. Does this sound adequate in others opinions (assuming that my concern on the P. Tang is unfounded)?

jk

[guitarfish]

JK, how long did you have the fish in hyposalinity?

[jimmyj7090]

about 7 weeks

[guitarfish]

As you porobably know, the minimum time for hypo is 21 days after all spots are gone. I've done hypo successfully in about 28 days in the past. 7 weeks is quite a time, I can't imagine there's any parasites alive in that tank, assuming you kept it at 1.009.

[Triggerfish]

i believe the recommendation was to leave them in hypo for 6 weeks after the last spot has been noticed. if that's the procedure you followed, then not sure what else you could do.
good luck

[jimmyj7090]

I agree, but after all this trouble why rush anything.

Plan was 6 weeks hypo after seeing no spots as that's the max time I've seen reccoended. Fish only showed spots for a few days in the display and I began catching them ASAP (infection started with a new fish). No spots seen in the QT even in the time before I began dropping the SG. 6 weeks stretched to 7 just because I was busy and distracted so I waited several extra days before I started bringing the SG back up.

I, like you, am on a mission to beat this bug. I just want to eliminate all the loose ends that I can.

So far so good, but I'd rather have the parasite re occur in the QT than when the fish go back into the display. I figure an extra 2 weeks in QT at normal SG will bring it up to over 10 weeks that the display was fishless. If I see any reoccurance in the QT I'll know the fish aren't fully clean, If I give them that extra couple of weeks at normal SG I'll be pretty confident that they are really clean. An extra couple of fishless weeks for the display can't hurt either for extra insurance.

We'll see.

jk

[guitarfish]

Sounds like you answered your own question. :)
As the end of hypo comes, I always find myself saying, "I can wait another week or two..."

[guyguerra]

Jimmy, you'r plan sounds solid. My fish did develop Ich again after 6 weeks of hypo, and I had done exactly what you are doing, so it was easy to treat with copper, which finally beat it. I believe the two weeks at regular salinity is your final proof, and if you'r like I was, I was determined NEVER to let Ich back in my display.
An update on mine, they have been in Cupramine since 10-19 and (unless I'm mistaken, as there is a spot on the tang, but I don't think it's Ich) and Ich dropped off in a couple of days and hasn't been back. So I'm starting my six week count from 10-23. If this one spot I'm seeing isn't Ich, they'll be moved on Decenber 4th to a Nano cube for a week or two, and if no signs re appear, they get to go to the big tank.
Guitarfish, I'm going to PM a picture of my guitar collection, there are 40 in all.

[guitarfish]

Originally posted by guyguerra
Guitarfish, I'm going to PM a picture of my guitar collection, there are 40 in all.

AWESOME !!!

[Triggerfish]

couple pics with new camera
Kodak Z740http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/365tank2ev2_0111.JPG

middle

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/365middle1.JPG


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/537/365Bangaii.JPG

[guitarfish]

Wow, nice tank. I definitely don't see any ich in there. :lol: :lol:

[xvinnyax]

OK I said I would respond with the results of the product I was going to try. It states reef safe and invert safe. So I gave it a try and the stuff smells like Tabasco sauce. It took some courage to put it in the tank. I only have button polyps as far as coral goes so I figured why not the ick was getting bad and I don't have a big enough tank to quarantine all my fish. So I tried Chem Martin Stop Parasites and I guess it worked. My Angel fish loved the stuff and would eat it up. The button polyps closed up tight but after the 5 days treatment opened back up and are fine. This stuff is supposed to feed the parasites unhealthy food causing them to die off and interrupt their cycle.

Since then I have added UV to my tank and wow... I cant believe how clean my water has gotten. I used to be pretty proud of how clean my water was, but nothing like this. Why I never got the UV in the first place is beyond me. Algae and everything is doing great. No more sickness in my tank.

My Green Mandarin goby didn't make it though. He died before I got the stuff in but he was in my quarantine tank. I really liked him so much. He had a pimple on his back. The thing grew and popped oozing this white puss. I was treating him for the infection with maracyn but he was just too sick. :( He was my favorite fish. I haven't even thought about getting another because it just isn't the same..

Anyway the stuff seems to work, but it irritates corals, No effect on inverts (I had snails crabs and cleaner shrimp). If you have no other choice but to treat in your display I guess it would be worth a shot.

[guitarfish]

How long has it been since you started the treatment? Because ich naturally falls off the fish anyway, you may not know for sure until 6 weeks or more.

[guyguerra]

xvinnyax, I too would like to know more about the length of treatment and the amount of time that's gone by before saying these fish are Ich free. You will see that most of us feel it takes six weeks after the last sign of Ich to feel comfortable that it's gone, and then for the paranoid (like me), two more weeks in a non treated tank to see if it recurs.
As a note on my group, I said on the 10th that there was a spot on my Kole Tang that I did not think was Ich. Well, the spot is gone today, which makes me think it was an Ich spot that fell off, though it was the largest Ich spot I've seen so far. Now I'll start my six week count from today. Again, I'm thankful that I QT'd these fish. It's been a breeze treating them and isn't worrying or bothering me a bit. When I had it in my display last winter, It bothered me daily.

[jimmyj7090]

So far so good for me. The discoloration on my P.tang's pec fins are the same after 5 days, I don't think it's Ick spots, just paranoia.

Triggerfish, your tank looks great. Are you going to the 11/20 meeting? If so maybe we could meet up and talk about this battle, (face to face is so much easier than via internet)?

jk

[Triggerfish]

jk - i cannot make that meeting.
however,,i do plan on making the Raynham meeting next month.

[xvinnyax]

I used that Stop parasite for 5 days as it was recommended, then after the five days I added the UV to the tank. The product suggests shutting off the UV during treatment and removing carbon filters. I just bought the UV so I had it on standby for the five days of treatment.

It has been about a month now and I haven't seen anything come back since. I know it take six weeks and as I have read even maybe 8 weeks. I have been watching them closely about twice a day and they are all clean, and acting very healthy.

I also forgot to mention that the stop parasite caused a algae bloom in my tank, but it hopefully worked, another 4 weeks will tell. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.

I don't know if the product really works or if it is just some mixture that made the fish want to eat and made them stronger to fight it off (Heard of garlic being used). I have about 4 weeks clear and going, but on another note I did add UV afterwards which helps with parasites also. (Have it set on a low flow rate so it kills parasites, I have read that the longer exposure is needed to kill parasites) If you want to combat Algae you need to increase the flow. I have mine set at around 60 gal an hour.

Well our quests goes on.

Vinny..

Oh and a bit off the subject but I was at a bar last night in Newburg NY off the water front, place is called Torches. What a fantastic tank this guy has in this bar. Tangs, foxfaces, Huge lion fish etc. Must be around 1500 gal's around 30 feet long and separates the dining area from the bar. If you live in the area a great place to check out. (Beautiful woman all around me and I couldnt care less I was watching the fish.. ohhh brother what a hobby)

[guitarfish]

Greetings from 1.009. :cool: I got my QT there on 11/10. Now, it's a long haul. Basically, I'm looking at bringing these fish into the display sometime after the new year.

[guyguerra]

Vinny, was Stop Parasite the only treatment you used? How bad was the infestation? I'm assuming that since you have Polyps, Live Rock and snails that the product is reef safe. I'd like to know how this does in the end.

[guyguerra]

My bad, never mind. My previous post was to xvinnyax. I put Vinny, then didn't see his post and thought it was possibly removed by a moderator. Disregard this post. Sorry.

[tjay]

Originally posted by guitarfish
Greetings from 1.009. :cool: I got my QT there on 11/10. Now, it's a long haul. Basically, I'm looking at bringing these fish into the display sometime after the new year.

Stick with it, temptation to add something to a fallow tank or cut short the treatment is a fatal mistake.

Hypo / fallow does work. What a great way to celebrate a new year

[guitarfish]

Fortunately my display has been ich-free for a year now. I have three fish in there. It's a wonderful thing !

[xvinnyax]

I did a freshwater dip with Meth for 5 minutes for my needlenose who was beginning to get spots on his fins. He was scratching so much that he still has some of the marks on his face where he scratched the black off, but it is returning. My flame was darting like crazy and I dipped him also, then I treated with that stuff.

If you have the room and the tank space I agree with everyone else here.. Go fallow for the 8 weeks. I just don't have the $ and the space for a large enough sick tank. It is something I should have though about before getting into the hobby but I feel safe now and I wont introduce anything new anymore until I let it sit for 2 weeks in my sick tank to see if it is sick at all.

I am only 4 weeks clean now and I have to be sure that it is really gone, and also I added the UV so who knows what made it work??? If it worked!! soon to see... (UV could have eradicated it)

I just read and read and read..

[guyguerra]

It is considered by most people with more experience than me that a UV will not be able to catch enough of the parasites to eradicate it, though I keep them on both of my tanks. I haven't put ANY faith in the reef safe treatments, but I'm not familiar with the one you used. I look forward to hearing how it did in another couple of weeks.

[xvinnyax]

Oh and the fish tank at that bar I mentioned earlier was 6,000 gallons not 1,500. I just saw it on a web site. How would this guy treat for parasites in that thing? Wonder what kind of sick tank he has?? and do you have to get scuba certified to clean your tank..

I am sorry about being a bit off topic again.. I know how everyone hates it, but the thing was beautiful.. So forgive me in advance.

Vinny

[guitarfish]

I was at Torches restaurant a few months back, their aquarium is quite amazing. I did see ich on some of the fish however.

[jimmyj7090]

I feel like I'm waiting on the results of a HIV test or someting.

10 days to go and I find out if the past 3.5 months has been a waste of time or not. I'm confident, but still tenious. Either way, my fish are almost ready to go on weight watchers so I guess the hospital exp has been OK.

Guygurrera? Can you elaborate on your exp with the fish getting sick again after 6 weeks hypo?

Where there any possible loose ends?
(swing arm tester, uncalibrated refractometer, less than daily SG checks, possible cross contamination through equipnent, Food, rock, low temps, or anything else)? Not suggesting that you were slack in your husbandry, just wondering if there could be any vairables that allowed the parasite to survive? IME it seems like everytime I try to do something just right I always miss something and realize it after the fact.

Do you have any theorys on what went wrong? Is the treatment not as %100 as we think or could there be error? Maybe 1.009 as a target allowed some slight fluxuation higher between checks or something? I chose to take a bit of a risk and made my target range 1.007-1.008 so that If it climbs a hair it would stay in the safe range (the fish showed no stress that I saw, I made all adjustments quite gradually and allowed 2 weeks acclimation to the QT before treatment began).

Again, not criticising your method at all, just curious if you have any new insight or theories about what went wrong.

If my fish get sick again I may just treat myslef with copper just to be thourogh:).

jk

[jimmyj7090]

Oh yea, triggerfish,

Not sure on the next mtg, I'll try to make it wourk.

jk

[jeffbrig]

Clowns are doing well, but the achilles has been struggling lately. On friday we noticed he was listing to one side and breathing more rapidly than normal, and saturday we noticed some visible swelling in the abdomen. Whether the swim bladder is the cause of the swelling, or another organ (kidneys?) is preventing proper use of the swim bladder, I can't tell.

He is still eating (albeit less than normal), and still hanging in there. We have added epsom salts to the water (in case of intestinal blockage/constipation), Maracyn as a broad spectrum antibiotic, and we are continuing to raise the salinity out of hypo at a controlled rate. I added a few bubblers to increase the oxygen saturation of the water, to make his breathing easier. Hopefully he will be able to pull through.

I'm pretty sure he's ich-free now, since he continues to be clean even with this latest stress. He spent 6 weeks in hypo before we started raising the salinity, currently at 1.017.

I fear that all of this stems from the degraded water quality we experienced following hurricane Wilma (since corrected). Either than, or some lingering effect of the extended period in hyposalinity.

Cross your fingers for me, hopefully he'll pull through.

[guyguerra]

Hi Jimmy.
First, I take no offense or feel criticized for your questions. This type of communication is harder than typical conversations and can lead to misunderstandings. Secondly, I am a rookie, though I've studied everything I can and feel I have been obsessive about my aquarium, I am learning things everyday. I have made many mistakes so far, that's why I say "Two Hard years" for experience.
I will try to qualify my statement. To do that, I went back and read my old threads to help refresh my inadequate memory. Here's what I found. As I mentioned, I used Cupramine at first, but was sold a different test kit. I thought my levels were correct, which they were not. It didn't work and after six weeks I still had Ich. I did not see the Ich until I removed the Cupramine, which IMO suggests I had enough to keep it at bay. So I switched to hypo at 11ppt. I knew the importance of accurate readings since the salinity was so low, so I bought a refractometer. There were several people that said 11 ppt was too low and I should use 13ppt, but there was a gentleman named Lee on this site that advised 11ppt, and I developed a lot of respect for him (he has many years of experience). I also called the Oklahoma Aquarium, which has a published article on how they use hypo to treat Ich. Here is the link to that article: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2004/short.htm .The Biologist there was very friendly and gave me lots of advice. He convinced me that 11 ppt was good. I was into it for three weeks and all the fish looked good, but on the fourth week it came back with a vengeance. I continued on for 5 more weeks, but the Ich would not stop. I was using my refractometer at least once, if not twice daily to check the salinity. The fact that Ich came back after the first Cupramine treatment was stopped (which was flawed due to an incorrect test kit), and came back after 3 good weeks of hypo forms my basis of thinking that raising salinity and removing all copper so that if Ich was barely present it would have a conducive set up to let it thrive again. This could be over kill, but in the "Quest for an Ich free Tank", this doesn't seem to be unreasonable to me. So the short answer to your question is that I believe I was diligent in my management of treatments.
As to a theory of what went wrong, I have read that there are strains that have adapted to low salinity. If you go to Advanced Aquarist march issue of 2004 and read the article News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans:
Part Five of Five you will learn a lot about these strains. heres the link: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/index/ .
So my thought of removing all treatments when finished and watching the fish for two more weeks is my own, and not scientific, and some situations might make this prohibitive. But if I treated a fish for the time it takes, then popped it in the display, only to see Ich come back, it would take more than treating myself with copper to get over it. That's what single malt Scotch's are for.


:)

[guitarfish]

Guy - you have had quite a battle on your hands my friend! I had heard of the varients of crypto that are resisitent to hypo, but last time I checked, it was never seen in captivity (yet). So you still have your fish in QT now?

[xvinnyax]

Guy has quite a battle on his hands it sounds like..

I have a question related to my quest for a ICH free tank. I posted earlier about using one of the "reef safe methods" and added a UV to my system. I have since seen all the spots disappear and everyone is healthy. I am going on week four to week 5 of not seeing any spots on my fish. (Have a magnifying glass next to the tank) Now after 2 months pass and I still don't see spots is it eradicated? I guess the question I am looking for is can these darn ICH spots be held at bay for long periods of time (Year so to say) and then just resurface when the conditions permit, ie stressed fish, poor water conditions? How undetectable can ICH be in minor quantities?

I have read that some believe that ICH will always exist but that I do not believe. I have read far to much research which shows that once you kill it, it will be gone as long as you don't introduce it again.

I have read through a bunch of posts and articles but I haven't seen these kind of questions addressed. Like how long can it appear to be gone but then have ICH resurface..

What a hobby.

[guitarfish]

What I do know is that ich is an obligate parasite which means it needs a host (fish) to reproduce. It falls off the fish, reproduces, then out the little bas-tads come by the hundred. Now, here's the thing - if there's no fish, they will die - they can't survive otherwise. Now, if the tank is at hyposalinity, they should die too.
This much I know.

What I don't know is, when it falls off the fish and attaches to something (rock, sand, etc.), can it stay "dormant" for a long time? Supposedly some have observed this to happen. I don't know for sure. Personally, I think if it does happen, it is unusual/rare.

[jimmyj7090]

Guy,

a totally novice question in response (and thanks for the reply)

I don't know the PPT vs sg conversiton / relationship. Is 11 PPT = to 1.011? What were you going for on the refractometer, 1.009 or 1.011? My understanding was that the SG needs to be 1.009 or less to make hypo work. Am I confused on terms or is it possible that your SG wasn't low enough to prevent some survival for the Ick? I went with 1.007-1.008, could this make a diffrence?

just trying to clarify as I'm a bit of a novice.

thanks again

jk

[guyguerra]

I agree with guitarfish, if theres no host, it has to die. They say 8 weeks of a fallow tank does it, so I would assume for most cases this is the time frame. Problems that do occur is when fish are "immune" to it or can harbor the parasite in it's gills for a period of time without showing symptoms, only to show up when something stresses the tank. If I had to worry about that I'd get out of the hobby.
As to my Ich battle, that occurred last January and my fish have been Ich free since June. Once I finished treating them I moved them into the 50 gallon tank that is now my QT. I kept them there for two months while setting up my 230. They remained Ich free and have now gone to "heaven" (our term for the 230 gallon tank). The second batch of fish I bought in September showed no signs of Ich, and got to go to "heaven" in four weeks. The third batch of fish showed Ich the day after I bought them, so they have to live in the QT for about another 5 weeks. Then I'll do at least one week in the QT after the copper is removed (preferably two weeks, but there is another group of fish waiting for me at the LFS right now) .

[Triggerfish]

Kick Ich Update:

skimmer turned off, carbon removed
All dosing done in pm
Dosing (11oz/Dose)10/28 - 11/4
Dosing (16oz/Dose) 11/7 - 11/11

RESULT
there was no improvement and in fact the population became more rampant. if it even looked like the population was decreasing i would have opted for a 2nd dosage treatment.
However, it just looked like an increased waste of money and i felt the tank was suffering a bit with no skimmer and carbon running.
i added a total of about 3L of this stuff in there. It did absolutely nothing that i could observe.

Summary
>Kick Ich - no effect on reducing population- it has increased
>garlic - added to all food - no effect
>cleaner gobies(2 noticed) actively pick at fish throughout day
>fish continue to feed readily and very active


The fish seem to be living with the parasite on a daily basis. The population does not look like it has increased over the span of the last 3-4 weeks..so hopefully this is as worse as it will get.
some fish are visibly more infected than others, where some rarely even display spots.
Amazingly, since this started 6 months ago,,i still have not lost a fish due directly to the parasite infestation.

Not really much more i can do here to eliminate these things from the system besides just sort of wait it out. I will take immediate action on a fish if deemed necessary. Possibly the infestation will reduce over time,, just not sure how plausible that would be.
Unfortunately, i need to obviously hold off on my massive stocking plan until conditions improve.
system currently contains 10 fish.

Action Plan
>maintain water quality
>continue adding garlic to food
>add couple more cleaner gobies
>try ginger root treatment
>possibly either fix my UV or get another and run with slow controlled flow

i'll try to snap some macro shots of fish for degree of infection reference.
are we having fun yet.......:spin2:

[guitarfish]

I guess it comes down to what we as aquarists are willing to accept in our tanks. Personally, I can't sit in front of my tank and enjoy it - at all - if my fish have ich. A friend of mine on the other had, has had ich at least 2-3 years now. Fish come and go. He enjoys his tank. That's what counts I guess.

If ich weren't an issue, this hobby would be so much more enjoyable, and easier.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by guitarfish
I guess it comes down to what we as aquarists are willing to accept in our tanks.

yeah,,sort of. at this point,,as long as fish are active/feeding/growing - i'm not going to mess with them unless necessary..i've put my angel through 2 hypo treatments ,3 copper treatments and 3 FW dips along with numerous nettings over the course of 5 months.

[pecan2phat]

Hey Trigger,

KI also has not worked for me this time around. I've used up about 6L of the stuff in 3 full aggressive (150% dosages) treatments complemented with their Rally product halfway into the 2nd and in all of the 3rd treatment. (17% water changes were performed inbetween treatments with a 2 day waiting period) What's really gotten worse is the secondary bacterial infections that have taken place due to the weaken immune system. I started my KI treatment in the affected FOWLR tank on 9/26/05 and within the last 10 days, I started to lose fish every other day. The count is now up to 6 lost with 4 left. I've given up on KI even though it has worked in the past for me on one or two occasions when the infection is very light.

I stopped the KI treatment about two weeks ago and started another product but had no positive results. I ended up speaking to the manufacturer and what was concluded upon could have hampered any good results. One, I left all the KI & Rally in the water column (no water changes or skimming/carbon turned on) which could have negated some effects of the latest medication & two, I had left my Phosban reactor operating all this time due to Ruby Reef's data that phosphate binding media can be left running.
So basically just circulation from the sump return and a powerhead is running for flow. It's almost been a full tank crash because none of the four fish that are left look well but I'll still try.

[Triggerfish]

sorry to hear that pecan...was that 'other' product the NSF?
amazingly, my fish remain visibly healthy in every other way.
appreciate your feedback, and worse thing is that you have to start over.. i wouldn't even chance it with the same system..i would tear the whole thing completely down.

good luck man...

[pecan2phat]

Yes Trigger, the other product is NSF.

I'll test the product and let you know if is any good. It's like with Ruby Reef's KI, they sell tons of this stuff but reported positive results are a small percentage yet hobbiest like you and I will still try it :D

I'll give NSF their "try" also.

I did get a chance to test it in my SPS & clams dominated reef tank and the results were promising. If you remember, I had originally started treatment back in July with KI (at regular dosages) and my acros & caps started to RTN about 2/3rds into the 15 day treatment, so treatments were stopped and the weaker fish died but all still had the parasite, just not full blown. I would see some spots on a true perc and I would see the Anthias and wrasses scratch along the overflow box and starboard bottom. I basically did nothing from mid July to about the end of October. No additional losses with the exception of a Barletts. I added the product for 12 days and it all looked good. Scratching stopped at about day 7 and the few spots that were on the true perc disappeared at around day 10.
On day 15 or 16, I see the scratching come back. This is when I spoke to the manufacturer about my no success with the FOWLR and the comeback regarding the reef tank. The running Phosban reactor on both tanks were not initially disclosed by me cause I totally forgot about them.
So now that I have the opportune conditions, I will try the medication again with it's good or bad results.
All skimmers off, carbon & phosban reactors offline, UV sterilizers turned off and a 77% water change performed on the 90g FOWLR over a course of 3 days prior to the start of the medication for the second time around.

I started on 11/13 for both tanks.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by pecan2phat
I did get a chance to test it in my SPS & clams dominated reef tank and the results were promising. I added the product for 12 days and it all looked good. Scratching stopped at about day 7 and the few spots that were on the true perc disappeared at around day 10.
On day 15 or 16, I see the scratching come back.

so things improved after day 7? as you mentioned the following regarding the product on 10/31.
"I am on day 5 of the NSF treatment and it doesn't seem to slow down the progression of the infection. It has actually gotten worse with a lose of a Majestic angel on day 4."
OR was that with the FOWLR?

so all of a sudden 3 days later and the entire population is wiped out?
i'm curious as to how long of a duration you need to treat with this product. you mention that the manufacturer directions indicate treatment was for 1 drop/25g -2x/day for 7 days.
did you use it longer than that?

you mention scratching,,did you actually see any visible infection signs after day 15 or 16?

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by jeffbrig
I'm pretty sure he's ich-free now, since he continues to be clean even with this latest stress. He spent 6 weeks in hypo before we started raising the salinity, currently at 1.017.

I fear that all of this stems from the degraded water quality we experienced following hurricane Wilma (since corrected). Either than, or some lingering effect of the extended period in hyposalinity.

Cross your fingers for me, hopefully he'll pull through.

yeah,,apparently those fish need superb water quality round the clock.. great looking fish though,,was cool watching them in the surge action on the inner reef slopes in Hawaii..awesome.

how long you going to observe after you raise the sg back?
thinking 2 weeks should do it.
good luck

[guitarfish]

Originally posted by Triggerfish
i've put my angel through 2 hypo treatments ,3 copper treatments and 3 FW dips along with numerous nettings over the course of 5 months.

You did all that and the ich survived??

[pecan2phat]

The improvement on day 7 was in the 120g SPS reef tank. I dosed 5 drops twice a day. On day 7 the most obvious fish that scratched all the time (yellow coris wrasse), stopped scratching but I continued to dose until I ran out. I took a look at the true perc around day 10 and I didn't see any spots that were previously on his top backside. I ran out of medication on day 12 so I waited to see. But the scratching came back a few days later. I don't see any visable signs of the parasite on any of the fish but the scratching is there.

The meds was also dosed into the 90g FOWLR at the same time frame. It showed no improvements at all during the 12 days. Things actually got worse but not in terms of overall attachments of the parasite, but the color loss, body ulcers and fin rot. A lot of the blame is on my part for the excessive loss of fish because I didn't clear the KI & Rally out of the water column before adding a different medication in. I thought the Rally would help the bacterial infections and that the KI would work it's way out.

When speaking with the manufacturer, he said that in most cases, 7 days will work because there is an active ingredient that will cause the eggs to hatch (this is what he told me), but in rare cases he stated that it has taken up to 3.5 weeks of dosing.

I don't know what the outcome will be, but so far what I plan to do is to dose for the full seven days and look for improvement. If the symtoms are totally gone, then I'll continue to dose a for an additional 3 days and then wait a week before I turn everything back on.
If I see that there is improvement but the visable signs are still lingering, then I'll dose untill the bottle runs out.
If I see no improvement, then I'll just chalk it up as a med that was tried & not effective.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by guitarfish
I had heard of the varients of crypto that are resisitent to hypo, but last time I checked, it was never seen in captivity (yet).

where do you check for this sort of data?

[pecan2phat]

With my reef tank, this and KI would be the only viable option and KI is off the list now cause it did exactlywhat I was trying to avoid with the SPS corals.

With the FOWL, in hindsight of course, I should have just taken out the liverock snails & urchins, placed them into a rubbermaid tub and hypo'd the tank.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by guitarfish

What I don't know is, when it falls off the fish and attaches to something (rock, sand, etc.), can it stay "dormant" for a long time?

from this article:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm


"The longest recorded period of time for tomonts to hatch is 72 days (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is temperature dependent so it is highly unlikely for such an extended period to occur in a tropical aquarium."

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by jimmyj7090
I don't know the PPT vs sg conversiton / relationship. Is 11 PPT = to 1.011?

no, i believe it would be 1.008

http://saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SgPptConv.php

[jimmyj7090]

thanks, I've been scratching my head on that one.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by guyguerra
Problems that do occur is when fish are "immune" to it or can harbor the parasite in it's gills for a period of time without showing symptoms, only to show up when something stresses the tank.

that bit about the parasite is perhaps the most complexing.

this statement exemplifies that a bit.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

"Fish that have survived a challenge with Cryptocaryon irritans can develop some level of acquired immunity for up to six months (Burgess & Mathews, 1995b). Some fish will not develop any protection or acquired immunity. Fish maintain immunity by the presence of the parasite without evidence of pathological lesions. However, many fish are not completely protected and can sustain a low level infection (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). This may account for outbreaks at a later date since the parasite was not eliminated from the system. Stress can diminish the fish's immunity, enabling the parasite population to increase, resulting in a renewed outbreak (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Immunity or partial immunity may also explain why some of the inconsistently effective treatments previously mentioned appear to work at times."

i am a bit confused as if the parasite is successful at finding a host and attaches,,doesn't it feed off the fish to survive,,and as it feeds doesn't it grow. Or even at it's largest size it is still invisible to the naked eye. Only will it become visible if the fish displays a "pathological lesion"? which is not actually the parasite you see but only the hosts reaction to it. which it wouldn't display if immune.
darn confusing...

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by guitarfish
You did all that and the ich survived??

it was either still on the fish or still in the tank when i added him in.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by pecan2phat

When speaking with the manufacturer, he said that in most cases, 7 days will work because there is an active ingredient that will cause the eggs to hatch. If I see no improvement, then I'll just chalk it up as a med that was tried & not effective.

wow..would sure as hell like to know what the mystery active ingredient is made up of????

well,,you seem candid enough that i am now interested in what your outcome will be here. either that or if you report back that it has appeared to work, you get the #1 NSF salesman award for the thread. :D

[guitarfish]

Originally posted by guitarfish
I had heard of the varients of crypto that are resisitent to hypo, but last time I checked, it was never seen in captivity (yet).

Originally posted by Triggerfish
where do you check for this sort of data?

The articles below, specifically ATJ's, are the ones I've used for reference in the past. In Part 2 of 5 of Terry's series is this paragraph:

Several new strains of Cryptocaryon irritans have been identified in Taiwan and other locations (Burgess & Mathews, 1995. Diggles and Adlard,1997). Highly aberrant and divergent isolates from Chiayi and Kaoshiung are of particular interest (Yambot, et al., 2003). The Chiayi isolate was discovered in a pond with a salinity of only 5ppt. This was the first recorded incidence of a Cryptocaryon irritans outbreak at such a low salinity. The Kaoshiung isolate was obtained from 12th-generation tomonts that originated from a cage at 10ppt salinity (Yambot, et al., 2003). Diggles and Lester, (1996a) suggested that the range of Cryptocaryon irritans has extended into estuaries.

It was around the time Terry wrote the series that he stated that he wasn't aware of anyone getting the low salinity form of ich in captivity. That was probably close to 2 years ago.


ATJ's Marine Ich Reference (http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html)

See the series by Terry Bartelme for a more in depth discussion, including possible treatments.

News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 1 of 5 (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm)
News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 2 of 5 (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm)
News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 3 of 5 (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm)
News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 4 of 5 (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm)
News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 5 of 5 (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm)

One thing I didn't see discussed in this thread is the "transfer method" for eliminating ich, which is in Part 3. Others have called it the "bucket" method. It sounds quite effective, but definitely more stressful for the fish.

[guyguerra]

I tried the transfer method, and lost a hippo tang doing it. The fish wasn't doing well when I started, but still, it's a lot harder than it sounds to manage healthy water in three buckets. The stress on the fish is enormous.
I chuckled when I saw your comment "You did all that and the ich survived?? Thats the type of work I went thru, thats why I QT everything, and why I make sure the fish can go a week or two (I have to keep reminding myself "two",as I've never been a patient person) in clear water to see if the parasite re groups. I hope to never go thru that again!

[jimmyj7090]

your killin me,

I'm on day 7 at normal SG, everytime I go by the QT I can almost hear my fish begging,, "we're ready, we want to go home, please, bubble bubble"

Sure is hard to be patient.

jk

[guitarfish]

I have a gorgeous coral beauty in my 20g QT that has been at 1.009 for about 5 days now. I didn't see any ich on the fish when I got it a couple weeks ago, but of course wasn't going to risk it. Well, guess what? A white spot appeared on one of his fins a couple days ago. So, he's gonna stay in there for a while now. What an insidious life form !!!

[guitarfish]

Well, while we're sitting around waiting for our parasites to die, check this out. I lifted these slides from a Japanese website. I think the first slide on the upper left are tomites that have attached to something - rock, sand, etc. In the other slides we're looking at various stages of tomonts reproducing.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/guitarfish/Fish/CryptoSlides.jpg

[guyguerra]

Guitarfish, do you hypo your new fish no matter what? BTW, my wife is putting the CD in the mail tomorrow.
Jimmy, hang in there, your virtually there. I have two tanks, one clear, pristine, no Ich, and the other infected and depressing to look at (thankfully it's just a QT doing what it's meant to do). You'll have those fish a long time. :-) I'm actually going to use you as my inspiration to stick to my own story. Theres a group of Bartlets anthias, a blenny and a ghost eel waiting for me at the LFS, and even though I think I have this group thats in the QT cleaned up, I'm going to hold myself to the same standard. It's a good thing I'm friends with the guy's at the store, they said no problem on holding my fish. They even put them all in one tank for me, so I'm counting this as part of the QT time, though they will still have to do 4 weeks once I get them.

[guitarfish]

And this is the Japanese version of the crypto lifecycle...
http://kebdoubu.hp.infoseek.co.jp/seikatu.jpeg

[guyguerra]

Those look like the ink drawings psychiatrists used to use! LOL

[guitarfish]

Yeah, I hypo all of 'em. The LFS's around here (NY) are veritable peitre dish's for ich.

[Triggerfish]

great drawings...lol

odd how this lifecycle works..my angel has been loaded for 7 straight days.. and now nothing visible on him tonight.. i got to try for a pic.

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by Triggerfish
cool watching them in the surge action on the inner reef slopes in Hawaii..awesome.

Funny you should mention that, we saw these on the reef in Kauai earlier this summer. That's when I decided to get one for our tank.

http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/achilles.jpg

Originally posted by Triggerfish
how long you going to observe after you raise the sg back?
thinking 2 weeks should do it.
[/B]

I'll probably keep him in the QT for observation through thanksgiving at least. I've already had this fish 2 months, another few days won't hurt. :D

[Triggerfish]

best pics i could get tonight..fish doesn't stay still for very long.

basically what the fish looks like with no visible spots.
i'll take some when he should be loaded up within few days.
any specs you may see are scratches on glass.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/365asfur.JPG

here cleaner goby pokin around.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/365angel-goby.JPG


sweet pics of the achilles...i just don't think i would have the swimming room for that fish...