"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[Triggerfish]

Haven't had to deal with this annoying protozoan for over a year, i was lucky as i did not quarantine.
i believe it entered the system with the addition of 40lbs of unquarantined LR that i bought off someone. his tank had ich before although none of his fish seemed infected at the time..just didn't think the parasite could have been on the rocks.. OR, more than likely, I just didn't "think" at all..just can add this to the list of many stupid things i have already done.

ANYWAY, i am undergoing an ich outbreak right now and have a 25w UV going..after 10 days my angel is just as infected as he was before after giving him a FW bath that appeared to release almost all visible parasites from him.

i do not think i will be able to put a dent in the parasite population as each cyst can release up to 200 additional tomites within the water column. right now he has about 15 theronts on him. when each one matures and falls off, eventually up to 3000 tomites can enter the water searching for a host. it's likely they will find 1 or 2. my niger is also infected.

i could just leave everything alone and hope that they could just continue to fight "them" off until the cells age and die within 11 months..BUT,,that sort of blows..After thinking of possible plans of action, i am going to remove all fish into my 55 and hypo them for 6 weeks after the last parasite has been noticed. i will keep the main tank fishless for minimum of 6 weeks giving ample time for all tomites to have no host and die off.

this does suck... I will provide updates to this thread as the process moves along.

SUMMARY

Current Tank: 125aga semi reef established for 6 yrs
UV: 25w aquanetics w/new bulb
First Noticed ICH: 5/9/05
Infected inhabitants: Asfur angel, niger trigger, toby puffer

Overall Plan:
1. Remove all occupants to 55 to undergo hypo for 6 weeks after last theront is noticed. Begin 5/30/05.
2. Leave main tank fishless for minimum of 6 weeks.
3. Quarantine everything for 6 weeks prior to entering display
4. Monitor for the presence of the parasite for 1 year

[mike89t]

Here is a great article on Ich and it's life cycle.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

Here is a diagram of the Ich life cycle:

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/C_irritansLifeCycle.gif

The Ich in your tank was most likely encysted on the live rock you added.

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Triggerfish
Overall Plan:
1. Remove all occupants to 55 to undergo hypo for 6 weeks after last theront is noticed. Begin 5/30/05.
2. Leave main tank fishless for minimum of 6 weeks.
3. Quarantine everything for 6 weeks prior to entering display
4. Monitor for the presence of the parasite for 1 year

This is what I would do. In fact I just completed a hypo treatment on my firefish a couple of months ago. Worked like a charm. I followed this treatment:

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

[Triggerfish]

i decided to wait a few cycles to see if the parasite populations would diminish with the UV running. my angel would be infected then look fine for a couple days then would be reinfected.

the latest time he looked much worse and it did appear that the parasite was multiplying with each cycle.. my clown,niger,puffer all appeared to be fine. it appears the angel was more susceptible for the parasite to host on. and one of my small damsels had a few as well.

Update:
5/28 - all fish removed except blenny, parasite continues to not appear to be hosting on this fish.
- fish undergoing hypo at 1009 in 55g quarantine
- all fish are doing fine and eating normally
- no fish have displayed any ich parasites since going in quarantine

[plaz]

Hi,
I went through something similar and now quarantine everything for 8 weeks (even snails). It did work, but one caution is your water quality. I tried hypo and lost the cycle (probably not enough fully cycled media to start with). Even with 30% water changes daily, I couldn't control it. I slowly increase spg (very slowly) and added bio-spira and more ceramic media to get things back under control - but lost 2 fish due to the water quality prior to that.

That being said - I just wanted to let you know you are doing the right thing letting the tank go fallow. I have two hippos that have not shown any signs of ich since the experience. A couple of things though: 1) You will have to get the Blenny out even if no signs of ich (it can act as a host if it has built up an immunity and that will keep ich alive in your tank), 2) You need to keep the tank without any fish for a minimum of 8 weeks at 82 degrees - the ich trophant stage can possibly last up to 72 days. I did 12 weeks to be certain (although it was a complete pain).

Best of luck!

[tjay]

Well sounds like we are on the same path.
I moved my fish to a 50 gallon last week. There were only two and one did not make the transfer.
Today marks my first week down with remaining tang in hypo and main tank fallow. (just have some corals and inverts in there)
I have a weeks vacation the second week in July and will be finally getting my tank back to where it was before I introduced a ich laden cole tang.

I am pretty much doing what you are, except I think I want to find out if there are any other things I should treat the tang for before ending his QT

I look forward to hearing your progress as it seems we are on the same quest.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by plaz
but one caution is your water quality. I tried hypo and lost the cycle.
that will be the 1 and only concern with the fish in the 55 q-tank
i plan on feeding lightly for the 6 weeks and will need to keep an eye on NH3. thanks
Originally posted by plaz

1) You will have to get the Blenny out even if no signs of ich (it can act as a host if it has built up an immunity and that will keep ich alive in your tank)
i am under the impression that the parasite will not be unable to complete it's lifecycle on an immune host. (Burgess and Matthews (1994)
Originally posted by plaz

2) You need to keep the tank without any fish for a minimum of 8 weeks at 82 degrees - the ich trophant stage can possibly last up to 72 days.)

according to the link below, i think i am counting about 39 days. but will follow the recommended 6 weeks.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html
now when i am finished with this process and the parasite reoccurs,,then i will have to look at some of your added recommendations..thanks;)


tjay-- this does blow and impatience will eventually get ya.
glad i had the extra 55 laying around and my fish stock was light.
my angel was starting to get worse during each lifecycle. only sign of distress was last week when he began to flicker a bit..figured parasite was getting into the gills and i gave a FW bath that appeared to provide instant relief.

i mean catching each fish(had to take tank apart to catch one of the damsels) and acclimating them to the new tank individually was crazy..

6 weeks is going to seem like a hell of a long time to be fishless.:(
but will be adding some corals along the way of course.:D

[plaz]

I got the 72 days for tomonts from the 2nd article below. But that is they max extreme at low temps. I would make sure you hold out for the entire 6 weeks (it would be a pain to start all over again).

I would also seriously think about moving your blenny. If you read Steven Pros article, he says an immune fish can still serve as enough of a host to keep it in your system (mild or no symptoms).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm

"The longest recorded period of time for tomonts to hatch is 72 days (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is temperature dependent so it is highly unlikely for such an extended period to occur in a tropical aquarium."

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm

Best of luck once again!

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by plaz
I got the 72 days for tomonts from the 2nd article below. But that is they max extreme at low temps.

yes,,apparently cannot live that long at tropical temps which is what we are dealing with here. so the 6 weeks is good.
"an extended period of 72 days is highly unusual and can only occur in cooler waters." this statement makes it sound like it is unusual even IN cooler waters.

if the fish shows no symptoms then it could be that the parasite is harvesting in the gills, where you would not be able to see it mature. or it could be noticeable for a time period where i do not see it prior to it falling off. not to mention the light colored body where it makes it difficult to notice. i'll just really need to keep an eye on him.
i have concerns about moving this fish into a tank with no algae for 6 weeks..i could try to put in a nori sheet to even see if he would have interest,,if so i may move him. if not and the ich comes back then i can probably be pretty certain that he was maintaining the population.

[tjay]

I am totally without fish im my main. Turned the heat up a little tonight
I wondered about treating the main tank with one of thos ich treatments.
But honestly. I read everything I could find for two days and the rules seem to be
empty the main of fish and go 6 weeks, I am going 8
put all fishes in hypo for 6 weeks past the last signs of ich. My remaining fish never showed the dots just would not eat and scratched so I am considering another fresh water bath on the return and possibly treating with meds for anything else a yellow might get.

We went by the local shop that sold us the sick fish today and was told rather rudely that ALL tanks have ich. I wont be doing buisness there anymore. one thing to sell a sick fish, another to treat people rudely and speak nonsense after you do it.

[plaz]

Tjay - sounds like you are on the right track and almost through what I know was not a fun time with the quarantines! I've read so many posts that said ich is always present - one reason I was so careful when I quarantined was to see if they were possibly right (although I figured the experts were)! Since I had ich in the tank originally and now have 3 tangs (Yellow and 2 Blue Hippos) back in for a few months with absolutely no ich - I know it is possible. Hang in there!

Triggerfish, I don't blame you for not wanting to take a chance with the health of the Blenny. They are cool fish! I'll keep my fingers crossed that you don't have to go through the routine again. Also, I agree the 72 days is probably not possible in warm temps - I just meant to hold out as long as you can because many people have posted that they experienced ich again after 4 or even 6 weeks fallow (although they may have cross-contaminated or something).

[tjay]

Well I know I am new to all of this. But I think you have to listen to those who have been before you.
The articles that I read in the sick fish forums were great. Steve Pro and others are to be commended for sharing the knowledge they have.

I do not buy into the all tanks have ich theory. We had our small tank up and running just fine with no problems until we bought this one fish home.

What makes me very sad is that the local fish shop has been totally terrible about handling it. I am in management and know customer service and how it is the life blood for a successful business. A simple act of acceptance of responsibility would have went a long way here. Instead we were treated as if we were ignorant.

I hate to buy livestock online, but at this point I would rather do that than deal with the likes of this shop.

[nikeboy_2001]

I have a outbreak of black ich in my tank, my mandarin fish died from it and my yellow tang has it now, my damsel and 2 clownfish seem fine, should i qt the yellow tang or empty out the fish and raise the temperature? Also would bubble tip anemones get affected by this?

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by plaz

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you don't have to go through the routine again. many people have posted that they experienced ich again after 4 or even 6 weeks fallow


thanks man..was looking at him real close last night..haven't noticed anything and he continues to act normally.

i have also heard of similiar situations, although not with a 6 week treatment, but with 4.
it is very possible that the hypo treatment was not as low as it should be 1009..but who knows for sure.


Originally posted by tjay

I do not buy into the all tanks have ich theory.
well, if you go by what the documentation states, then it wouldn't make much sense that the protozoan would constantly exist in the aquarium. the question is: How does a marine fish get infected in the wild? Where does this Cryptocaryon irritan originate from? if it can just "appear" out of nowhere then,,yes i can understand how it could possibly "always" be there. but that doesn't make much sense.

If the protozoan can only originate in the wild and there are ways to basically ensure that it does not get transported to our systems(copper, hypo); then our tanks can remain "ich free".
that's what i plan on monitoring for 1 year with this thread.


nikeboy- inverts should be immune to any type of marine ich.
not too familiar with the black ich,,not sure if it is some other type of protozoan,,as yellow tangs seem to be one of the only fish affected by it for some reason. i would, nonetheless, remove the tang and treat until it clears up for 6 weeks or so.

[markcasto]

Interesting...I am now dealing with whitespot in my tank and have moved all the fish out into QT tanks and treating them with hyposalinity.This is the first time I have ever done this and I am finding it very scary.I bought a refractomer to help get the readings right and it makes a big difference.
IF a fish can grow immune to whitespot does this mean if it came from an infected tank that it will have to go through hypo as well?I put my flame angel and clowns in my 20gallon QT and so far I have seen nothing on them if after say 4 weeks I still see nothing does this mean they are safe to go back once my main tank is fallow for 6 weeks or could they still be harbouring it?
I put a link on my webpage regarding another forum discussion I had on all this trying hard to gather as much info as possible and have read steve pros article. He told me to leave all the fish out and I panicked and put them back to soon only having to get them out again as the ich progressed.No fun..

[plaz]

If you are watching the fish closely in a quarantine (several times thoughout every day), there is a good chance he is not harboring ich. I did not treat my Goby, but I did put an oversized uv on his quarantine and did a few big water changes just in case. However, my ordeal lasted a few months - so I really watched him for a long time. It turned out fine though. If you pay close attention and he goes 6-8 weeks with absolutely no symptoms, the advice I got was that you can then be 99% sure you aren't reintroducing ich.

[markcasto]

I took all the fish out last week I have 2 big tangs and 8 chromis in a 55gallon QT that are one day away from being at 1.009 salinity they all seem fine and I have seen no more ich on them.In my 20 gallon I placed my flame angel and 4 clowns I have seen nothing on them yet so Im just leaving them without hypo treatment for now.

I had run out of space so I put my other fish 2 banggai
cardinals a yellow tang mandarin and cleaner wrasse in the refuguim untill my qt tank was ready.The only fish in there that got itch so far was my mandarin I have raised the temp to 80 but theres live rock in there so they will have to go into QT when its ready.The mandarin is free of it now but I am keeping a close eye on him. And the fuge is seperated from the main tank.

I lost 2 copperbands and a reef fish last time but I didnt have any ammonia remover and treated with copper. This time I am taking it slowly watching and treating as I go along.

[tjay]

Well I am now past my one week mark.
the yellow tang seems to be fine. Holding salinity at .09 and fighting amonia with daily changes.

My display tank is keeping me suprised even fallow.

I saw a small feather duster just free floating in the water today

one of my cleaner shrimp molted for the second time since in my tank and left a perfectly intact shell of himself on the rock. ( I take it these need to be removed? )

I watched my plate coral eat a couple mysis shrimp amazing.

both my mushrooms have developed little buds right in the center. I hope that is a good thing.

My one rock has just bloomed with bunches of small fan worms. (food for the copper band when I can find an aussie and get it QT'd)

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by markcasto
if after say 4 weeks I still see nothing does this mean they are safe to go back once my main tank is fallow for 6 weeks or could they still be harbouring it?


i would say that if the fish show no signs of the parasite after 6 weeks then they should be fine..not 4 but 6.

tjay--congrats on the 1st week man..that's cool your still gettin something from the tank..only thing i really get to see is my sea slug crapping..:D
here is the fallow tank,,just to think there are a bunch of nasty critters roaming in there..but dying a slow starving death. :blown:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/365fallow_tank.JPG

bad pic of the q-tank..holding up steady..water change due on sat.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/365qtank.JPG

[tjay]

Here is a shot of some of the criters in the fallow main tank
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=112793

[markcasto]

Nice one tjay and triggerfish.Its a ***** having to battle with ammonia and do all those water changes no doubt but the plus side is I get to arrange stuff in my main tank with out freaking out my tangs and being attacked by my two yellow tailed damsel fish. I have been using Amquel+ to treat any ammonia peeks along with water changes.I bought one of those seachem badges as well but its not doing anything rather rely on my test kit.


I had an invasion of tiny fanworms a month ago when I uped the calcium with kakwasser drip that I made from an old milk bottle.The copper band munched on them all day long.Sad to have lost them both. From now on I will always have some filter foam in my main tank ready for instant biological filter for my QT tanks.Oh well back to work...

[markcasto]

mmm. dying a slow starving death yes indeed I hope everyone of the little buggers dies.

[markcasto]

Progress so far...
The 52 gallon QT is now down to .09 first week up on this one and the ich is not showing.The two large regal tangs and chromis are all feeding well and ammonia levels are ok.
The 22 gallon QT has just had water changes no treatment utill I see ich on any of the fish one flame angel 4 clowns.
The refuguim holding the other fish 2 cardinals 1 cleaner wrasse mandarin and yellow tang has been raised to 80 and after 3 days the madarin is clear of it.
So far so good and the hyposalinity treatment seems to be doing the job in the 52 gallon,great because I really love my big regal tangs and I want them back in my main tank ich free.

[markcasto]

Heres what it was like with fish...
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/81224Tank.jpg

[plaz]

Sounds great! Just one more word of caution, because I love the Regal tangs too. I lost one doing hypo after I was 3 weeks in and thought everything was safe. I knew part of the cycle was broken (I battled traces of NO 1, 2 and 3 with 2 25% water changes daily). I had 1 medium Regal in a 20 gallon long with 2 small Chromis. Everyone ate and looked great. One day (3 weeks into .09), I had company and didn't do the test that afternoon as I always had. In the morning I delayed th water change. Figured they would be okay until night since everyone looked good. The Chromis were, the Regal wasn't. I came home that same afternoon and he looked cramped and was swimming funny. I immediately started a series of water changes. However, the ammonia poisoning from the one time spike was not reversable. I saved the Chromis but not that wonderful Regal. Sorry for the long story, but I don't want it to happen to you. I have done a lot of reading since, unless you had loads of bacteria to start with it is almost impossible to maintain a cycle when doing hypo. If you are seeing traces of ammonia and/or nitrite, you want to be very careful and do the water changes and testing at least once a day (probably twice). Another thing you could do is to add more filter media (ceramic is good) and get bio-spira marine. It will bring up the cycle quickly.

Good luck once again!

[markcasto]

Thanks for the advice plaz I would hate to lose one of the tangs. I have added some more filter material as well as the cannister filter and I bunged in some sand from my main tank before I started all this I am testing every day twice for ammonia peaks and using amquel if I detect anything as well as water changes.

I have done the hypo very slowly over a 4 day period to be safe.One of the tangs is a real pig and eats loads but I am a bit worried about the other one his stomach is a bit pinched and his not as fat and active as the other one. Its a real job to get him to eat as well.

I have been tempting him with some julian sprungs sea veggies green seaweed but he only takes a little. Any suggestions on what else might get him to feed better?

[markcasto]

Yikes I just did another test and my ammonia level was 1.5 put some amquel in pronto and did a water change. Thats scary, why does the biological filter not hold up when your doing hypo treatment?

[markcasto]

Oh no one of the tangs is freaking out and spinning around the tank I changed some water about 2 buckets and sat it out his now calmed down and hiding in his tube. Should I bring the salinity back up slowly or do you think it was the ammonia spike doing it??? This is worse then sitting in a dentist chair am on edge with my eyes glued to the fish...

[Triggerfish]

damn,,i better watch the NH3 levels more myself..thanks for the alert notice.
nice tank markcasto- hopefully your tang will settle down now that the water quality has improved.

[markcasto]

He is sitting in the corner now looks a lot calmer grief that was worrying.I am pretty sure it was the amquel that I added he was fine before I put that in then he went mad spinning around and gasping at the surface I will add it very very slowly next time.Yes whatch the ammonia it creeps up on you I will test twice a day from now on.

[Triggerfish]

i will test in the am and pm daily myself, as basically besides a major ph drop, the NH3 increase is the only other issue that could result in a quick death.

[plaz]

I hope your Tang is okay! I don't know why it is so hard to keep the cycle - but for me the experience was certainly not a good one! If I understood Steven Pro correctly, he maintains that if you had a really good cycle and enough media and did the drop really slowly, you would not loose the cycle. However, I e-mailed WetWebMedia after my Tang died and Bob Fenner said he no longer recommends hypo because it happens so often.

If you decide to stop the hypo - remember to bring up the salinity really slowly. Also remember that the cycle won't come back on it's own - so prepare to keep changing a lot of water. If you can find bio-spira marine, I would go ahead and get it. It is refrigerated, so only the big pet stores carry it. It is the only thing I know of that will give you an almost "instant" cycle. The petstore here sells enough for 55 gallons for $20 (some stores charge $30). I used it for my Yellow Tang that was in a separate 20 gallon (as soon as I slowly rose the salinity - with several days of water changes). In my opinion it was the best money I ever spent on this hobby. I was hoping it was just my experience with hypo (because I didn't have enough cycled media) - but for me it was a total nightmare! Death from ammonia poisoning is really hard to watch - and 2 really big water changes each day on the yellow's tank almost put me over the edge before I found the bio-spira.

I will keep you in my thoughts and hope that everything turns out okay!

[tjay]

Well I am following with the greatest of interest.
I have good news to report here.
My bio filter must have kicked in, amonia is at 0 since setting up the QT.

and the yellow tang ate both flakes and nori today like he was really hungry.

Now to just do monitoring and wait. I want to add another cole I just wonder if now would be a good time to add it to the QT tank and let it go through hypo while I am waiting.

[markcasto]

Well its getting late and I have been watching my tang all evening he is looking better now thank goodness. I bought a seachem ammonia alert badge but its about as much use as a broken leg so I am testing with my normal kit.

I too got a reply from Bob Fenner when I asked him why he didnt favour hypo as a treatment said much the same.Well I am going to persevere with it now I have come this far might as well go the distance. I like it better then using copper and it saves on having to mix up so much salt with the water changes as well.

I put an acrylic sheet in the 52 gallon to seperate the tangs from each other as the fat one is picking on the thin one should ease the stress on him a bit. Cant get my hands on the bio-spira marine the shops round here are dire but thanks for the tip plaz, I will look out for some on the net. Good luck tjay glad your ammonia levels are steady its a pain doing all those tests for sure. Right I'm off to bed now will check out the news on your progress in the morning and hopefully my tang will have some breakfast with me...

[Triggerfish]

i have had this q-tank going since around 5/7. the sg was never over 1018 so perhaps that has helped since it has been lowered to 1009.
amm/nit still coming in at zero.
when a moved all the fish i added a whisper 3 power filter that came off my main tank.
i think that if your qtank is large enough and you have a couple of seeded filters to throw on,,then perhaps you will not be so in danger of NH3 spikes??
i plan on running this tank constantly now as i will be stocking heavy throughout this year and will be quarantining everything for 6 weeks.

6 days and still no sign of the parasite on any fish undergoing hypo..clean as can be.

[tjay]

yeah having a filter that was already running seems to be the ticket
We seem to be on the same course again.

Keep me posted on your progress

[markcasto]

All well this morning, regal tang eating and sitting in his tube, good.Yes I agree totally, having sponge filters ready for the QT at all times is the key.If I had thought ahead and done that I would not be battling with the ammonia also stocking up on salt and RO ready water would be a wise move.

So far so good no itch on any of the fish and the mandarin is clear of it now for 4 days after I raised the tem to 82 in the fuge.

[Triggerfish]

yes,,i always have RO/DI water available that i keep in a large containter..i only add salt to it 3 days prior to doing water changes, so i always have regular water available for top off.

only problem is now, with the weekly changes i will be doing for the q-tank the sg of the makeup water will obviously be much lower than normal..so i need to adjust the plan accordingly to accommodate for the difference in the two systems.
a bit of more work but should not be an issue if planned for.

[markcasto]

I Have a large water container outside which I keep full of RO water the only real exspense here is the salt. I am using a new refractometer made by deltic got it the other day I will never use a swing hydrometer again this thing is spot on and a must for doing the hypo treatment.

I take a bucket of my ro water and heat 2litres of it in the microwave then add some buffer and slowly add it to my tank,I then test with my refractometer an hour later its slow but it works. I think we have all found out forward planning is the key to this.

[Triggerfish]

just curious,,what were you using b/f to measure sg and how off was the reading + or - to the refract?

[markcasto]

I was using a swing arm hydrometer made by coralife it would give me a reading of say 1.020 but with the deltic I got 1.015 so the deltic is much better and far easyer to read as well just add 3 drops and look at the scale for a spot on reading. In fact if I had done hypo with the coralife I would have gone way to low. I have two of them and a glass one they are both out compared to the deltic refractometer heres a link to the deltic

http://www.shop-coralgarden.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=365

[Triggerfish]

ya didn't have any small air bubbles on the swing arm did ya..that will whack it out..
my swing arm is reading 1010 now..so perhaps i should just leave the level where it is..:eek1:

[markcasto]

No I cleaned it carefully and checked it against the glass one to see if there was any noticeble diff. The glass one was slightly more accurate but the deltic gives the best reading I could not get it to 1.009 with out the deltic and be certain it was at 1.009. I know that for certain having tested them all against it. I dont normally like to spend my money on things if I can diy it or find a cheaper method but this was money well spent I feel. Compared to the cost of my fish that is...

[markcasto]

If your not sure I would stick to 10 that sounds a safe bet...

[cduran02]

Its been six weeks this past wed. that my "kids" been in the hospital tank. I treated for 2 weeks with coper. I was about to put them back in the display tonight when I get home and now I read that I would possibly need to wait another 2 week. :( The display has been void of fish, only a couple of snails, hermits, shrimp and horseshoe craps left. The display temperature has been around 75 ~ 76 degress throughout the whole six weeks.

Do I really need to wait another 2 weeks to put them back in? Was the temperature in my display too low?

[cduran02]

I have no problem waiting another 2 weeks since my hosp. tank is fully cycled. I just feel bad for the poor kids being in such cramped conditions.

[markcasto]

Every thing I have read said to wait 6 weeks but I guess 2 more will not do any harm. Its tough not having fish in your main tank thats for sure but better safe then sorry as they say.I will not be letting anything back in my maintank untill I am 99% sure the itch is not present and my maintank is free of it.

[tjay]

I went with a refractometer when I started low salinity.
We had been using a swing arm before, and side by side comparisons showed the swing arm to be off in every case by as much as .05

Having read the warnings about the need to be accurate with low salinity both for effectiveness and safety I made the call to bite the bullet and buy one.

I am glad I did, they are much easier to take readings with and all you have to do to calibrate or check it is test your ro/di water.

My next buy is a pinpoint ph meter.

I am going to start dripping kalk in my display this weekend. Man talk about a lot of reading. I have an issue in my main tank with what appears to be low ph. But I honestly think it is the test kit I am using.

One of the things I am doing to battle the impatience with 6-8 weeks of fallow is to spend that time learning chemistry and getting my calcium/alk/ph routines down pat.

[cduran02]

I guess Ill wait another 2 weeks.

I need to get one of those refractometers, I was using a swing arm at first, but then I borrowed an ultrasound density meter from my job and Ive been hooked on it since. It gives specific gravity readings with a resolution of 0.00002, but its a $2500 instrument that I will have to return some time soon. Untill then, Im probably one of the very few reefers that knows with 99.9999% confidence the specific gravity of the aquarium.

I wanted to try hypo, but there were some hit and mises with hypo, seems that copper is the only 99.9% sure shot.

[Triggerfish]

if your tank has been fishless for 6 weeks and as long as temps have been at tropical levels, that should be all that is needed. if your fish have not shown any signs of the parasite for 6 weeks, you should be set.

looking into a refrac group buy..just to think that my sg could possibly be as low as 1005., holy crap.
just been spending so much damn money past 3 months on stuff with this tank.. but this is pretty darn important..

yes,,the refract and the ph meter are good tools of the trade to eventually acquire..i had a ph meter but got rid of it when the $50 probe needed replacement.

[tjay]

wow how long did the probe last?
what brand did you have?

[Triggerfish]

pinpoint ph meter..the probe lasted about a year..
i believe there is a less expensive unit on the market now..and the replacement probes are about $35.

[tjay]

what brand, if you find it let me know.
I really want to make that my next buy. I am bound and determined to have a disciplined regiment in place by the time I get to add back fish.

[Triggerfish]

ah,,ya made me look it up.:D
even found it on sale for ya.


http://www.thatpetplace.com/Products/KW/ph%2cmeter/Class//T1/F73+0288+0003/EDP/32613/Itemdy00.aspx

[tjay]

thanks, I will let you know how it goes.
Going through this with others makes it a lot more enjoyable.

Going for week 2!!!!!!

[Triggerfish]

enjoyable or worrisome..i figured the swing arms may be a bit inacurrate but not by that much..damn..i may raise it up a notch tomorrow..

[jjmg]

I have not read all of this thread so if what I'm about to say is stupid, please just take it as my experience.

I kept freshwater fish for a whole bunch of years and never experienced an outbreak of ick. I do know that freshwater and saltwater ick is different. I did regular water changes and kept my filters clean.

I've been keeping saltwater fish for a couple years now. I have bought a few fish from tanks that were iffy. I have only had one outbreak of ick. It was after I moved some fish between tanks, all had been steady with no additions for at least 6 months, but a six line wrasse decided he was going after a false perc, the perc came down with ick but all others were healthy.

I got lucky and caught the false perc the first night and moved her to a more friendly tank and she healed just fine.

In my saltwater tanks I try to do the same as I did in freshwater. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is 0. At least 10% water change each week and watch for fish being picked on and thinking about what I'm putting in my tank.

In other words, low stress and stable conditions. Moving fish in and out of QT tanks can't be good IMHO.

[tjay]

nah its not stupid, many people do feel that ich is in every tank and manageable with out the measures that trigger and I have committed to.

I don't have the back ground to debate the pros and cons of taking such measures. I made my decision based on reading as much as I could on the subject.

Everyone has to choose how they want to keep their tanks. I choose to believe you can have ich free tanks and I may be wrong. Time will tell if this approach works. If I understand the motive of Triggers thread was to test these theories to see if they are true.

If they do turn out to be true and one can be positive they have an ich free tank to me that is worth the extra effort.

If it does not work, I will still have learned something.

It is a win win

[plaz]

I agree. I think everyone has to decide what is right in there situation. For me, my NA1, 2 and 3 were always 0 and I had steady temps. My Hippo Tang was the only fish that kept getting ich. I fed garlic, etc. He would clear up, then get it again several weeks later. Then one time, it got in his gills and I lost him. Then the Yellow Tang got it (no other hosts), so I removed all the fish (after removing all the rock:-)

No doubt quarantine is stressful for the fish and owner! However, for me it has been worth it to finally have two ich free - ich magnets (needless to say since the new Hippos are now ich free, so is everyone else including the Yellow). The type of fish you keep may play some role in this. Either is dangerous for the fish - quarantine or ich itself. So, I guess everyone has to decide based on their situation.

I learned a lot going through it too. It finally worked for me, but not before having a few trajedies during the learning process! I will continue to keep filter media for quarantine on the main tank, and not even a coral or snail is going in unless I've had it outside the tank for 6-8 weeks. Watching the fish scratch alone was more stressful for me than the quarantine process (once I had a well cycled quarantine).

PS MarkC - I am very glad your Tang was okay!

[Triggerfish]

ICH is a parasite and does not just appear in the tank when the fish get stressed.. on the other hand,,IF the parasite is already present in the system, i have read that it will be easier for it to attached and host to an already weakened stressed fish with a diminished slime coating.

there should be no need to move fish in and out of a QT. it goes in for 6 weeks and comes out..that should be the end. of course it can come down with numerous other less prevalent illnesses.

my fish were not in the least bit of stressed conditions..tank has been established for 6yrs with no sign of the parasite for almost 2yrs. i added some LR that came from a tank that had a history of ICH and then it appeared.:rolleyes:

on a side note: i plan on mixing some IO salt today to the exact parameters indicated on the container.. 1.5lbs per 5g to obtain sg of 1.022 then test with the swing arm.
although not fool proof as the salt mix could have mixed at a different sg..but woudn't think it would be way way off though.


WEEK 1 Completed
still no signs of the parasite on any of the 6 fish.
fish behaving and eating normally.
NH3 still coming in at zero. water change to follow.

[markcasto]

Thanks plaz the tang is eating now so hope all will be well.

I heard lots of people tell me that ich was allways in the tank but the facts dont support that theory.

If the parisite was bigger and we could see it better then it would be easier to keep out of our tanks but I belive that if you kill them all they wont get into your tank unless they are put there by you. They dont fly into your tank from the sky they come in on fish and rock and such.

The hard lesson to learn here is to treat everything that goes into your tank with QT or pay the price, and I belive that many of us myself included get lulled into a false sense of security then all it takes is that one parisite to slip in and your in big trouble.

Sure if you have a small tank and not too many fish you will find it less bother but with a big tank like mine dealing with ich is a nightmare world.

Welcome to my nightmare...

[diverdan814]

I have learned that QT is certainly a way to go but it is not without pitfalls. I have lost more than a few fish in a QT tank. Seems like the larger water volume in my displays eliminates the cycling and amonia problems associaited with my 20 and 30 gallons QT tanks.

One must constantly change water, remove uneaten food, and this is no guarantee. Even if a QT tank is cycled, you still have to hope that the fish settles in.

What I have learned is that for certain species like anthias, QT is good for getting them to feed. I had a square spot that learned that the turkey baster and me = food. It took several weeks but he eats well now.

Tangs almost always need QT as they have a propensity to bring it into the tank. I have had to do hypo for tangs bringing ich into my system.

What I do now (learned this from an experienced wholesaler) is to do a freshwater dip, PH and temperature balanced, with some blue paraguard solution. Angels, tangs and triggers handle this quite well and can go about five minutes. 80% of all fish pulled from the ocean have fluke worms and you can see them come out during the dip. It is quite amazing to watch. A lot of ich also gets eliminated this way, although if the ich is embedded deep in the fish, freshwater dips won't eliminate that.

The fish love it- it cleans them out and gets rid of many parasites that cannot handle the freshwater.

Anthias, cleaner shrimp, crabs, all get dipped but for much less time.

This has worked for me. QT is risky. I know it is a fooproof method for eliminating ich, but all should know that it is NOT without its risks as well.

[cduran02]

Im contemplating treat all future fish I get for ich while their in quarantine. Here's my new QT procedure:

1) Aclimate new fish to my parameters.
2) During the first two week, build up the fishes imune system, garlic etc.
3) Following two weeks treat with low dose of copper (half the recomended dose.
4) 2 weeks of copper free QT
5) Put the fish in display

I will QT everything else for 12 weeks. Im going to set up the QT tank with good lighting (for future corals) and build a stand for it (currently I just have it on the floor) and keep it in our bedroom as a small display.

[tjay]

The pitfalls all surround the ability to maintain a stable QT tank.
It is work trust me.

I will post a couple picks of my QT that I plan to keep running at all times. It is not perfect but so far so good.

One of the things I think is an absolute plus was listed above. When a new arrival comes how do you know you are caring for it correctly while dealing with a main tank full of other inhabitants.

One advantage I see ( looking at half full vs half empty) is that the QT period is a great way for us to get to know the life form in a controlled environment before introducing it to our small ocean with competing animals.

[markcasto]

Yes I have to agree, it is not without its risks. But the task of having to remove ALL of the fish from your main tank once ich has taken hold makes the risks seem small in the long run.

I am now keeping an intensive log of everthing I am doing so I will learn from it all and be able to pass it on.

My tang is now feeding better as well, something I could not get him to do in the main tank so it has its benifits.

[cduran02]

Having a QT tank forces one to prepare better for new stock. Theres less inpulse buying because you know it will be a while before you introduce your new creature into the display.

Maintaining a QT shouldnt be that dificult, the best thing to do is, to keep a sponge filter media in your sump or fuge. When you get a new fish, setup your QT (if its not already running) the day before and toss the sponge in the QT or use it as the media for the QT's filter. And make sure you toss a new sponge in the displays fuge/sump for the next time. When your done with QT discard the old sponge.

[Triggerfish]

the "real" only pitfalls of using a QT is not monitoring water quality. the larger tank you can setup the better..i really think a 50-55 is a good size.

it's amazing to think that not too long ago, i was not an advocate for the use of a QT, except to medicate diseased fish.
but after researching the most notorious parasite in the marine world, i wouldn't think of doing anything but use one. it's only taken me 9yrs to realize it.:rolleyes:

OK, i tested the swing arm hydrometer with the exact IO mixture indicated by the manufacturer to equate to a SG of 1022.
Results:
swing arm measured around 1019.
this seems to coincide with what some of you folks have attested to when using the refractometer. i am doing a 20% water change now and will bring sg to read 1012 with the swing arm. think it will be closer anyway to what it was b/f.

BTW: it's great to post these experiences with you folks that will follow this.. it will be a year long thread and hope you all stick around and continue to provide input. thanks

[tjay]

Yes it was a great idea Trigger.
One thing I noticed and appreciate is that there are varied levels of experience and tanks here so it should be fun to compare notes as we progress.

I have two things to report today but I am not sure they are related to the process.
I lost an emerald crab sometime this morning. I just noticed him lying on his back. This is in the main tank, all levels are good so I am not sure what caused the little fellow to kick off.

I also am noticing a lot of new small white hair like algae growing on my glass and plastic skimmer box. I did a search on hair algae but it seems that it is green not white. I wonder what I am in for?????

I started dripping kalk in my main today the tang in QT is still doing great.

[markcasto]

I think the more people that read this thread and decide to QT there fish the better.Sure will save them a lot of greif if there tanks get ich.

One big problem I am having is the ammonia levels I am 99% sure that if I had some foam filter in my main tank with the bacteria on them ready I would not have been having such a problem with this.
Having a QT tank with out the biological filter ready is hard work lots more water changes means more salt and stressed out fish. Its so easy to avoid just put sponge filters in your main tank or sump ready for the QT without them this is twice as difficult.And I would get a refractomer if you can afford one.

The money of dished out on salt would have payed for this one already.

[Triggerfish]

white algae..?? no idea what that would be.

all fish doing well after 1st QT water change and are quiete active this evening.

mark-what size QT do you have going again? and what's in it.
that blows that the amm is giving you an ongoing issue. is there anything you can use from the main tank,,some rock or something? i would try to get something in there to relieve the burden a little.

i did some re-aquascaping in main tank today..redid the whole left side, moved couple corals around and took out some of that crappy old crushed coral remnants i still have sitting in there.
damn,,can't wait to get the fish back in there..+ add a few more.

[tjay]

damn,,can't wait to get the fish back in there..+ add a few more.

I hear ya. But here is a little read to reinforce our decision. This is sad we are debating a powder blue or blonde Naso to join our yellow so I read this thread. About half way down this poor soul got hit with ich.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=589806

[tjay]

I have been doing some forward thinking and here is something that is bugging me.
I plan to do a fresh water dip on the fish when moving from QT to main tank. I have been told this should be done on all fish to remove flukes and parasites.

Now here is what is bugging me. With all that we read about the importance of acclimating fish to our tanks then what are we doing when we use fresh water dips.

That is not acclimating a fish at all. Plus once in the dip you have to move them from there back to saltwater within a matter of minutes. You cant slowly acclimate the fish from fresh back to the main tank slowly the fish would die.

I am still a long way from this step but it has been bothering me.

As for the algae, I have no clue what this stuff is. Looks like little clumps of white or clear filaments growing on rocks glass and plastic. Where would be the best place to post for help with that.

[Triggerfish]

lol..ya that's what 25yrs experience will do to ya.. of all fish not to quarantine...a tang..funny reading that post,,i was ready to respond before i even knew what the outcome was. i posted a brief comment anyway..

are you going to dip the fish or bath the fish?
if you are going to dip it..just make sure temp and ph are the same..the fish will not last long before going into osmotic shock..maybe only 30-60 sec depending on species. iv'e never had any acclimation issues after dipping fish.

what about a bath..less stress i think. that worked well to release the mature ich parasites from my angel..

new tank pic: still need to add about 50-60#'s more of rock.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/365reef_week_6.JPG

Trumpet coral

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/518/365trumpet.JPG

Toadstool

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/576/365toadstool.JPG

[markcasto]

The QT tank is a 52 gallon Juwel Rio 240. I have the two big tangs on small one 8 chromis and 2 yellow tailed damsels in there.I am checking the ammonia levels twice a day and using water changes and amquel+ to keep it down.

2 days ago I placed the old juwel filter system back on there I did however give the filter sponges a very good clean in boiling water as they had been in my shed for some time.This might be the reason for the ammonia peeking a bit.

I am going to get some bottled bacteria this week and add that to see if it will help.It is very surprizing to see just how fast ammonia can build up and doing a test twice a day is the only safe way to be sure its ok.

On the bright side though my tang is feeding really well now and they both seem in good health. It will be good to see them back in my main tank again.

[markcasto]

Heres a pic of my tangs in the QT tank.
Glad to say they are both doing really well and theres no sign of whitespot.

Now on my second week of Hypo treatment and things are looking good ammonia starting to level out but I still test twice a day to be safe and keep a bottle of amquel ready.

Out side I have a 200litre rain butt to store my RO water in and I have done more water changes then I care to think of but it will be worth it to have an ich free tank.:)http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/81224QT_tank.jpg

[cduran02]

Good looking Tangs you got there Mark.

Today hits week 7. Main tank is being over run by pods now. I think they are even anoying my cleaner shrimp. Not even my horse shoe crabs can keep the population under control. The pods even seem to make fun of the HS crabs by riding along on their backs. When I feed the tank I have to make sure to put double the food or else the pods wont leave enough for the others.

The fish are going to have a feast when they go back in.

[plaz]

Great looking Tangs Mark! It is very rare to see the Yellow Bellies - at least in the states!!!

[markcasto]

The two tangs are at least 5 years old now but I have had to seperate them as they are fighting with each other. My tank is crawling with pods as well they are all over the back wall.Your right the fish will have a major feast when they go back.

Doing this hypo treatment is not so difficult as I thought it would be and it saves having to use lots of salt with the water changes.

The big plus is you get to study the main tank with out fish in it all those other creatures have a chance to come out and play. But I do miss having the fish in there.

[cduran02]

I think I will be using hypo on new fishes when I QT, weather they need it or not, just to make sure they are "clean" when they go into the tank. The LFS water is usually at a lower salinity than my tanks so it would take that long and it wouldnt be as stressfull at the bigining, the worse part is bringing them out of hypo....would have to be very slow. Since my (errr my companies) density meter is so accurate, I could do 0.0005 every 12 hours and make it a smoother transition.

[Triggerfish]

ok,,going on week 2 in hypo, i have noticed a couple of spots on my angel..:rolleyes: damn.. other fish look ok..
i think i will lower the sg a bit more and just go with the swing arm reading.. if it's lower then there is nothing i can do about that at this time.. i'm brutally strapped for cash and cannot get the refrac at this time.
- as it is, i had to hold off on a couple of group buy orders that i had planned. and salt supply is getting low.

i have also began to add some copper as well to help move this drawn out process along.

[cduran02]

You shouldnt mix treatments, you could further stress the fish and make things worse.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by cduran02
You shouldnt mix treatments, you could further stress the fish and make things worse.

the fish do not appear to be "stressed" at all. well, from what my understanding of stressed would be anyway. unless copper contained within low sg would result in some kind of stress in and of itself, (which i have not found anything on that yet) then i am not concerned at this point.

could you just post the link if possible of the documentation you have regarding this? thanks..

[cduran02]

I dont have any articles on the combination of Hypo and Copper, but Copper is very stressfull to the fish, I figure that the fish being in below normal salinity with the added copper could spell trouble. Maybe someone with more expertise could jump in.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by cduran02
but Copper is very stressfull to the fish

besides a lethal dosage,,could you explain in what manner the fish will experience 'stress' like conditions?

i am aware that there could be some long term damaging effects from copper alone like kidney, liver, and beneficial intestinal flora.

[cduran02]

For each fish it will be different. For example, herbivors have special bacteria in their digestive system that helps them with extracting nutrients from the food they eat. Copper is harmful to all invertibrates (including bacteria). I belive copper also harms the slime coating on fish.

Another thing is that the bio-filter in the tank is weakened which means you will have a rise in ammonia.

[Triggerfish]

not talking about ammonia poisoning though..just direct primary stress the fish would expect to experience due to the copper medication alone.

although ,,scaleless fish, of which i have one ..puffer,,may be a bit sensitive to the copper..in which way i am not sure..so will need to watch him in particular.

no inverts are being treated for ich in this QT.

[cduran02]

But you do have inverts in the QT.....the bacteria in the digestive system of the herbivors (your tangs) are inverts and if they are harmed so is the ability of the fish to aquire the nutirents they need.

[Triggerfish]

do not have tangs..sorry..

[cduran02]

ooops confused you with another poster, sorry

[Triggerfish]

only thing i found so far that could link the possible issue with using the two methods simultaneously is this:

"keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure."

linked with:

"Copper can cause serious damage to the kidney of the fish being treated."

i don't know,,sounds like you wouldn't want to use either method for too long,,never mind both at the same time.. hopefully 2 weeks will not cause much issue.. but, if i witness any change in behavior,,i will look to remove as much copper as possible..

Reference:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm

[cduran02]

Its similar to most treaments of cancer in humans in that the treatment is also harmful to the treated.

[Triggerfish]

side effects - both short term and long term.

even though the fish appear to be fine, i am a bit worried now that the copper could pose some long term effect..and coupled with the hypo,,could not be the best option here..

i think i will carbon out the copper and just lower the sg a bit more..

[markcasto]

Just to mention I did treat my tangs with copper for 7 days before I began the hypo treatment but because I lost 3 other fish I decided to stop using it and just try the hypo salinity. I think that I prefer this method to any others I have tried I dont like using chemicals to treat fish if I can avoid it.
By the way the deltic refractometer is brilliant so if you can get one later on I would do so.I hear you on the cost of salt its about 50.00 pounds for 25kg bucket over here.

[markcasto]

Just chilling out in my tube...
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/81224Tang_in_tube.jpg ;)

[tjay]

Sounds like most of us following Trigger have gotten our QT tanks stabilized. That is most of the battle
fighting the urge to cut the treatment short is now the hardest thing I find to do.
We had planned two other tangs for our main and I am trying to get them into hyposalinity before the cut off and that is fast approaching.
We did add a copperband and a blonde nasso tang to this QT cycle and they are all doing great.
Hypo is holding steady at .09 and the parameters are not perfect but holding with water changes weekly.

tic toc tic toc. just waiting now until mid July when we can put our fish back in.

I am finding working on getting my chemistry in the main tank down to an art a decent way to spend the time. I started dripping kalk.
I had some QTip sponges show up on my rocks this week. I hear that means water quality is good. So hey take the little victories and know that what I am doing is the right thing.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by tjay
fighting the urge to cut the treatment short is now the hardest thing I find to do.


i hear ya on that..i am only on week 2 and it already seems like i never had fish in the tank before..and it may seem like my angel could be delayed another week or so.. the two spots he had earlier had dropped so hopefully the hypo will destroy them when they search again. and that will be the end of it..

i just checked NO3 in main tank and the thing is registering zero for the 1st time in like 9yrs.. however,,i do not really trust the hagen kits i am using.:rolleyes:

i am currently looking for a BTA for my maroon..i will put it right in his spot for when he gets back..nice welcome 'home' surprise..hopefully he doesn't tear the thing apart if he takes to it...he is large.

looking to add one more piece to tank..small frag of purple digitata..figured i would give an easier sps a try..
after that,,i am just basically out of money..i am really in need of a 2nd job right now..just can't keep up any longer :(

[parks]

I have been fallowing this thread and I am going through the Hypo right now also. I am on day 3 and am currently lowering my salinity. I am curious if anyone is using a skimmer on there tank to help prevent nitrates or ammonia spikes. I do know that you get less results at lower salinity but mine seems to be working so far.
-parks

[tjay]

yes I am running a back pack skimmer and it is working great for keeping the paremeters stable. This is a clone built by a local fish shop.
he built in a bio ball chamber and a sponge filter that I have a carbon bag sitting on.
It is not skimming the green gunk that it would on a normal salinity tank but the cup is collecting brownish gunk water.

It was my only option as it was the only other filter mechanism that I had that had been running on a cycled tank.

[markcasto]

Money, patience and time sigh… If only we all had more of it.

It’s only the second week for me two and its going to be a long 5 weeks till the fish go back in the main tank.
I have to buy small bags of salt to keep up with the water changes but at least with this method I am only using half the amount I normally use.
I have not got a skimmer on my QT tank I could put my old sea clone on there I guess but don’t think I will bother as I am doing daily water changes.

Looking back to when I first took all the fish out and I really should have got some ammonia remover first at least two bottles and I should have made up a lot more water. I must have got through over 400ltrs of RO water so far and I am still topping it up.
Still this is all a learning experience and I will be better prepared next time.

[Triggerfish]

i only have a spare sump skimmer..and not setting up a sump for this QT nor getting a HOB skimmer.

i guess you could look at it like almost starting over again..remember how excited you were when you finally got finished with your tank cycle and got to add fish..

at least we have reef tanks so there is something going on anyway. if not, i wouldn't even bother turning the lights on for 6 weeks.
week 2 almost complete..:o picking up a BTA for maroon tomorrow i think..trading for a colt frag.

btw: i lowered the sg another notch last night. reading 1011. which i am thinking could possibly be +3 off from an accurate reading.

[markcasto]

Still dealing with ammonia now in the 20gallon tank.I found out that amquel+ takes 40ml to treat the 52 gallon tank but seachems ammonia remover called "prime" will treat a 50 gallon tank with just 5ml.

Thats much better value so I will buy some tomorrow and let you know how I get on with it.I don't really like the amquel very much it stinks and is very slow to work and my tang had a very bad reaction to it last week.

[Triggerfish]

wow,,what a difference in products.
ya,remember you mentioned the reaction..scary.

i think if you could find a 2nd hand 50-55 for sale and have the room to run it continously, that would be a better option.
just in case you need to treat multiple fish together. you could use the 20g for single fish disease issues.

you could hold off feeding for a couple days to reduce waste accumulation.

[markcasto]

It would be nice to have another 55 tank but I just don't have the room for it and I am sure if I had some filter sponges in my main tank ready to go I would be ok with the ammonia levels.I am pleased that my two large tangs are feeding well though.Have held back on some of my feeding in the QT but the tangs are eating everthing a give them so thats great.


Having them in QT tank has really helped in getting one of them fed up well, its stomach was pinched in and it was not eating but after only a week and a bit in the QT it is feeding from my hand!I don't think that would have happened in the main tank so that is another plus to all this.

I have also noticed in my main tank that the bristle worms are coming out during the day.So I made a trap from an old film cannister, put a small hole in the end and put some fish in there as bait. I caught one straight away so hopefully I can use this time with out fish to pull out some more of them.
Heres a pic looking into the refractometer its a bit blurry but you can see the clear line between the blue and white pointing at 1.009
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/81224refractometer.jpg

[Triggerfish]

yup..see the line..looks spot on.

btw: brissle worms no good? thought they were ok to stir the substrate..have some in my fuge,,should i get them out?

[cduran02]

Brissle worms are fine, they eat dead stuff in the substrate. They get a bad rep when some catches them eating one of their snails, shrimp, or fish. But what they fail to realize is that the animal they are eating were probably dead to begin with and the worm is just doing its job.

But sometimes they get really big and become an eye sore.

[markcasto]

Well heres bob finners view point on bristle worms but I don't like them so I trap them and get rid of as many as I can while my tank is fallow for 6 weeks.

Question: I am fairly new at this salt water side of the hobby. I am wondering how much of a problem bristleworms are. I noticed one or two in the live rock I purchased nearly a year ago, and have been noticing more and more ever since. I purchased one of those cheap plastic trap gizmos and have yet to trap a worm. I seem to have better luck with tweezers or scissors. The last one I saw was too large to fit even the trap. I have a large carpet anemone which doesn't seem bothered by them, but everything I hear about them says they feed on invertebrates. I want to start adding corals, but not if these worms are just going to consume them. Do I really need to be concerned? Is there anything that feeds on bristleworms? Am I doing something wrong that is helping them proliferate? Thanks for any help.

Bob's Answer: All good questions and concerns: For one, there are many polychaetes called bristleworms. Two, most are innocuous, a few desirable... as food, sifters and movers of material... Three, most will not, do not harm corals or other desirable livestock. Four, yes there are many animals that eat these ubiquitous marine worms. Some of the butterflyfishes, gobies, triggers, wrasses, some shrimp and tangs notably... of course they must fit in with your other livestock... Fifthly, you are probably doing little to cause, but a great deal to allow them to proliferate. Lack of predators and competitors in a necessarily unnatural setting (small marine volume of macrobiotic life), feeding (perhaps excessively... but hard to manipulate...), but very often, worm and other invertebrate pop. growth problems just work themselves out over time. I wouldn't go overt in efforts to eliminate all of these critters unless they become an obvious problem. Then I would go the bio- predatory route.

[Triggerfish]

well,,things are not looking good for my target date for display tank transfer.
Ich has shown up on 3/6 fish in the QT. very very small outbreak..basically 1 spot per fish..but it's there nonetheless.

I think the primary issue i have here is that i cannot be sure of the specific gravity level within the QT by using the swing arm device. apparently even 1.010 will not be effective, so it needs to be pretty darn accurate. i figured swing arm was measuring low by about .003 an have compensated for that. but, unless i can be 99% certain, i cannot continue with the treatment in an effecive manner.

As a result of this, I will need to get a refractometer. cannot keep cutting corners,,there is no way around doing things the right way in this hobby.
i may look to get this unit that is currently on sale for $43.
http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20041105185936/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/products/large/p_14035_FS26707D_2.jpg

i got to get that 2nd job,,but in the meantime i may need to start playing poker again to fund this hobby..

[tjay]

That is a good deal on that. It appears to be the same model I got.
I paid 70 bucks for mine.

I had to buy it at the LFS instead of online. I have not seen a single sign of ich since the fresh water bath and transfer to hypo. So there may be some merit to that exact .09 number. Of course the fish that was really infected died within 12 hours of hitting the QT.
He barely made the fresh water dip.

Sorry to hear about your delay. Are the fish going to pull through or is it too early to tell?

The fish in my QT are eating me out of house and home. I am not over feeding because they clean up every little drop within minutes of it hitting the tank. Including the CBB and they are supposed to be hard to get eating.

One trick I learned locally was to put romaine lettuce in the tank the tangs love it and keep their bellies full.

[Triggerfish]

ya..going to order it monday..possible small group order so price may be a bit less. ordering from premium aquatics.

oh ya..fish are doing fine..like i said 1-2 spots have been showing up..so it's likely that the level is very low and hopefully diminishing due to low (undeterminable as of yet) SG.

i've been spending alot of time reading through the Ich archives on this site..just trying to figure out all the loop holes where folks have not been able to effectively eradicate the parasite from their systems.
also going over Terry B's in depth five part article.
great reading :rolleyes:

[markcasto]

I know you wont regret buying one they are spot on with the readings and at least you will know that your salinity is just right.Also when you have to start adding salt to bring it up again you can be sure your getting it right.

My fish are eating like pigs! I am running out of flake and seaweed every drop is gone in minutes.So far have not seen any more ich but I will keep a sharp eye on it.

[tjay]

Trigger what have you found that is different from what we have in our plan?
I was looking at the life cycle myself and I understand why the say 6 weeks to be sure in the main tank. It does seem to me that if you go into low salinity and this stops the parasite from forming the little cysts that explode with new free swimmers that the need to worry about re infestation would mean the time in QT is less than that. I am not taking chances since the main has to remain fallow. I am just wondering when I can start slowly raising the salinity in the QT.
then again, the fish seem very happy so there is no rush.
Do you have a link to the 5 part article, I am wondering if it is the same one I read?

I do know this, I am not looking for short cuts but I am looking for anything that might make this fail. I really don't want to learn this lesson twice.

Mark how in the heck did you get a picture of the meter readings?

[markcasto]

lol... I just used my mobile phone and aimed the camera lens down the refrectometer.

On the subject of putting the fish back, I was wondering if my flame angel should go back on week 5 as he just will not eat anything I offer him. He has not had any ich on him since going in the QT and I am not sure how long he will last if he doesnt eat anything.Having said that he seems to be active and healthy.

[Triggerfish]

yes,,i think it will be a good item to have for all intended purposes, but a necessity for proper treatment.

Originally posted by tjay
Trigger what have you found that is different from what we have in our plan?
I am just wondering when I can start slowly raising the salinity in the QT.


so far what i have gathered was it seems the primary reason the parasite was not erradicated was from lack of proper duration of both treatment methods (copper, hypo).
there are so many threads on the subject in the archives - leaves no doubt it is the #1 issue probably 90% of fishkeepers have had to deal with at one time or another.

as to when could be an appropriate time to begin to stop the hypo treatment is probably one of the biggest questions??
you're right,,from what i have read, "the hypo therapy works by interrupting the life cycle at the tomont stage. they are destroyed by the hypo conditions,,thus preventing re-infection"
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

it states that the treatment should continue for a minimum of three weeks. so it appears that if you have not seen any sign of the parasite and have ensured that your treatment has been spot on, then basically i guess it is saying you can begin to raise the SG. perhaps then you could still observe them for an additional 2 weeks for added security.

now there have been some strains of the parasite that are more tolerant to lower sg levels..just be hopeful neither of us are dealing with any of those.:eek1:

the 5 part series can be found here..last post.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=282934

mark- i would say that as long as the main tank has been fallow for 6 weeks then it appears the fish should be good to go..
looking forward to hearing of your progress..

[cduran02]

I was originally going to go with hypo, but after reading about strains that may be imune to hypo I decided to go with copper. Everything I have read about copper says it the most sure way (as well as the most dangerous) and I didnt want to take any chances.

Im at 7 weeks 3 days of QT, no signs of ich since I completed copper treatment about 5 weeks ago. Just a few more days of QT. This better do the trick. I believe that the regular water changes you do on the display tank while its fallow should also help a bit in reducing some of the parasite.

[markcasto]

Some info on two products I have just used to reduce ammonia and boost the bio filter during QT.

I tryed Seachems Prime and Stabilise, one for treating ammonia and nitrite the other to boast the bio filter.I am most impressed by them both readings today when tested after only using 5ml of Prime were at 0mg for ammonia, great. One 5ml capful treated my 52 gallon tank overnight compare that with two 40ml of amquel which never got it down past 0.25.
I have been testing twice daily for 2 weeks now and that result was a winner in my books.

Plus my tangs didnt react in any way to the treatment like they did with amquel+.Hopefully the bio filter booster will do its job and get the bacteria working on that ammonia.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by cduran02

Im at 7 weeks 3 days of QT, no signs of ich since I completed copper treatment about 5 weeks ago.

i am sort of thinking that if you did in fact have one of those rare strains,,i think their rare, that it probably would surface again within the 6 week treatment.. just guessing here though..
that's why it is so important to be spot on with the sg level during the entire treatment. i am going to even drop it a notch in case of possible fluctuations that may occur.

upon my readings, i have noticed that the recommended copper treatment should not be less than 3 weeks. sounds like you did two. i wish you luck..


that's good to hear that the amm appears to be in check now..sounds like a much better product..


btw: i added a bta to the tank today..it is about 1/2 the size of my jumbo clown,,but maybe he can squeeze into it.:D

[tjay]

I really thought about the copper. But after all the reading I just could not find evidence that copper was any easier on the fish than hypo and I hate chemicals.

[tjay]

I really want to cure some live rock before end of fallow. This has most likely been asked a hundred times but seems like this is getting to be a comfortable place to chat since we are all facing the same challenge.

Who do you guys like for ordering a box of rock?

[Triggerfish]

i believe most of the "authorities" on the subject, recommend hypo over copper. at least that is what i am finding..

[Triggerfish]

your best option for that is do a search to see who folks are going with.. go for the lighter porous rock.

i try to get mine from folks selling from the local reefers club for about $2-$3/lb..that's where i got the 40# for 80 bucks that i believe the ich came in on...
still looking for another 60#'s or so...

[cduran02]

Due to the toxicity of copper its advised that the treatment not exceed the manufacturers dosage requirement. For Seachems cupramine it is 0.5ppm for 14 days. I think it worked very well at that dose, by the second the fish were clear and I havent seen a spot on them since. The 3 week treatment of copper I believe is for chelated forms of copper. Cupramine is non-chelated and its has a higher concentration. Three weeks I believe would certainly kill the fish. While they were being treated they seemed lethargic as if depressed.

Copper is a very strong treatment, thats why they suggest hypo over copper. But I didnt want to take any chaces, so it was stop it now or constantly worry about it comming back.

[plaz]

If you can't find someone getting out of the hobby - The Marine Center is good for live rock. They will try to find pieces the size/shape you want and their prices include shipping.

I got a large piece of Marshall Island (no color) from them when they had it as base for $2 lb. It colored up to dark purple and green within 3 months. It is all gone now - wish I had gotten enough to do my whole tank!!!

If you can find any cheap enough, I think Marshall Island is the absolutely the best rock for shape, light weight/porous, and great color!

[markcasto]

Latest update...
The main tank is being infested with bubble algae its everwhere I noticed it two days ago on one bit of rock now its all over the tank tiny shiny little bubbles.I am going to get a foxface after the tank has fallowed and if the tangs dont eat it then we will see if a foxface will. Seems to be one thing after another just lately,sigh.

On the plus side I got myself a ph monitor today and have been having fun testing my tanks out with it. The fish are all doing well and I am looking forward to the day I can put some back in the main tank its kind of dull with out fish as well.

The bubble algae sucks though!:rolleyes:

[cduran02]

I have just one bubble apear on one rock. Its strange though, its been that single one for the past week.

[markcasto]

Well thats what I had then a few more, now there are hundreds of them.Most people have said that emerald crabs or foxfish will get rid of it.Hopefully when the tangs go back they might start eating it.
Using Seachems stability seems to have worked as I am not getting any more ammonia readings on the 52 gallon QT,its still in the 20 gallon tank though.

[markcasto]

When I have completed the QT I think I will set up two 20 gallon tanks for use as QT tanks only and have my 52 gallon tank as a fish only tank.The two tangs fight if I take away the glass that is keeping them apart so I think I will leave one in there on his own.

[markcasto]

Yahoo thats my 100th post I will celebrate by going to the fish shop tomorrow and looking at foxfish.

[cduran02]

I have a fox face, they do love algae, but I dont know how much they love bubble algae. Ill see on Thurs when I put the fish back in the display.

BTW, dont forget to QT the Fox Face for at least 6 weeks if you get it.

[markcasto]

No fear of that, I don’t want another dose of ich in main tank that for sure. Are fox fish poisonous? They have venom in there spines don’t they? Do you think it will get along with the yellow tang?

[cduran02]

They are very peacefully, and yes they do release a toxin from the spikes on their back, but its not poisonous just stings. Just have to be carefull when you have your hands in the tank, but they will only sting if you corner them.

[markcasto]

Sounds like a good fish to have in your tank hopefully it will have a taste for bubble algae.

Its interesting having the main tank fallow for 6 weeks I have seen lots of new creatures come out of hiding found a wierd snail with a long trunk thing today but anything suspect goes in to my refuguim until I know if its ok or not.

[cduran02]

In fact I had a PBT and they got along just fine. I dont know how the yellow tang will behave towards the fox face. But as far as fox face they are not agresive at all.

[cduran02]

All those new creatures you see will get eaten by the fish when you put them back. You never saw them b4 because the fish would keep their population in check.

[markcasto]

One thing I did not know was that bristle worms eat hair algae. I watched one the other day tearing some off a rock and eating it.I used to have a problem with it crowding out my button polyps but its all gone now thanks to the bristle worms.

Mybe having no fish in the tank has given them all the courage to venture out, these are some of the good things about having your main tank empty while QT ing your fish.

[Triggerfish]

picked up the refractometer today from a local LFS for 52.50 with tax.
calibrated it with RO water..not sure if this would matter compared to the recommended distilled water, but it didn't need any adjustments as it was reading zero.

as it turns out, the deep six swing arm reading from the top of the arm is spot on with the new gadget at 1.012

the swing arm cannot be used anyway as it only goes down to 1.010

in the process of lowering sg down to 1.009 right now.

we will need to talk about how long to quarantine new livestock for while using hypo..from what i am reading, 6 weeks should not be necessary.

[markcasto]

I use distilled water to calibrate mine but ro water is fine.I think from what I have read the time under hypo is 4 weeks at 1.009 then slowly bring it back up to normal all this should happen in a 6 week period.

(The goal is to granularly reduce the salinity of the water to between 12 and 14ppt and leave it at that salinity for at least 4 weeks but preferably 6 weeks. Basically continue the treatment for at least 4 weeks after the last spots disappeared.)

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html




It seem a long time to QT your new arrivals but I think I would rather wait 6 weeks then get ich in my tank again

[tjay]

Trigger, from what I have read to rid the fish of ich you just have to allow the period of time they take to grow and drop from the fish to the sand. If hypo is working they should never surface again.

I am going the six weeks to be safe maybe in 7 or 8 as it will take a while to bring back up the salinity. Besides that Main has to go atleast 6 to clear itself of the vermin. My luck I would add it back on the 6 th week and that one parisite left would find my tang.

[tjay]

By the way this isn't bubble algae is it?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/92853bubbles.jpg

you can see it growing to the right on this old dead coral

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/92853rock.jpg

[Triggerfish]

what color is it purple? looks sort of weird.

damn, noticed today that my sea slug died,,must have been like that for a few days..the smell was putrid..

[markcasto]

Mmm... Hard to tell from the pics if its bubble algae or not. The stuff in my tank is really shiny and metallic looking but quite small at the moment it appeared out of no where and is on every single bit of rock.

Not something I really want in my tank and no doubt it came in on the live rock that did not go through quarantine. Yet another reason to make sure everthing goes through this procedure.

[markcasto]

Heres a pic of the stuff thats on my rocks.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/81224bubble.JPG

[cduran02]

Thats what I have, but only one bubble that showed up about a week ago on a rock that I've had since Feb.

Wooooohooooooo!!!! The kids go back to the display tonight!! As of today its been 8 weeks with no fish in the display and 6 1/2 to 7 weeks with no sign of ich on the fish. The parameters in the QT have been kept the same as the display for the past week so I dont need any re-aqlimation, I cant wait to get home today.

[markcasto]

Well if its the same stuff thats on my rocks I hope it doesnt spread like mine did. but if you have that foxface he will injoy eating it.

[Triggerfish]

cduran - that sure must have been a long haul. congrats on the patience and holding out, it should pay off without a doubt..

Looking forward to hearing updates regarding your continued quarantine practice as well as condition of your tank.
i wish you luck...

[cduran02]

Thanks :) I will be posting some pictures of the kids when I put them back in the tank.

[Triggerfish]

oops got you confused with marks situation,, you didn't do the hypo.

it will be interesting to see how your 2 weeks of copper treatment has worked out. i believe that is how you treated them?
when each of us are through with the treatments, i will summarize what we all did. we can then evaluate the results over the year.

[cduran02]

Yes I used copper (Seachem's Cupramine).

[Triggerfish]

what test kit did you use to measure the copper level with?

[cduran02]

Red Sea, it only tests up to 0.4ppm and Cupramine instructs to dose 0.5ppm. What I did was calculate the dose base on the volume of water. I performed 1 gal water changes every day with pre-dosed water and tested to make sure I was at least at 0.4ppm. I suspect this method would only work with non-chelated forms of copper. This type of copper doesnt stick to surfaces and remains in the water, the only way to remove it is with copper or water changes.

[Triggerfish]

here is an interesting quote from seachems support forum:
"Cupramine is meant to stay in solution well. However, if there are any relatively new coral decorations or if there is a calcium based substrate in the system, Cupramine can be pulled from solution. Additionally, very high carbonate alkalinity can effect levels slightly."http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=31

[cduran02]

But non of that is (and should not be) present in a QT tank.

[cduran02]

The kids are back in the tank!! :) They are all doing fine, though they are being shy and spend most of the time hidden. With exception of the foxface (keeps swiming up and down on one side of the tank) hope hes/shes ok.

[tjay]

Well one of us is back in, great!!!!!!!
how many weeks did you go fallow in the main??

Looking forward to seeing how long we can keep these tanks ich free and forever debunk the ich in every tank myth

[Triggerfish]

i think he went 8 weeks fallow.
i'm almost 1/2 way there..

[markcasto]

It will be great to debunk the myth of itch being in evertank theres still a lot we dont understand but at least this will go some way to giving us some evidence that it will work.How does it feel to have the kids back in the tank then?
I am happy to report that my ammonia levels are now staying at zero at last. I think the seachem stability additive really helped things along and there prime was great at keeping it down.Let us know if your foxface eats the bubble algae for you.

[Triggerfish]

great to hear the NH3 is under control now.

this waiting game really blows.
i keep adding things to the fallow reef to keep me interested.
got 4 more frags going in that i'm picking up sat from the local club meet, 2 heads of green frogspawn that i am very eager to add as well as green and orange digi..

oh ya,,got a death to report..my sea slug died..must have been gone for couple of days as the smell was just horrible..:eek1:
heard that they just do not live long in captivity...

[tjay]

I am refraining from adding anything to the fallow tank. Fortunately there seem to be new things appearing all the time. Since I used seeded water and sand to start the 90 gallon it is hard to age the tank.
It barely cycled at all. and that was over three months ago.
Now I am seeing Coralin forming on plastic and glass spots. sponges every where. That thing I posted a picture of turns out to be pearl bubble coral. I bought the rock as a dead coral skeleton but turns out it was not completely dead and now has spots coming back to life.
I am watching something down in one hole of a rock that has three hair like tentacles that are white and tan striped poking out but that is all I can see of what ever it is.

So I am hoping I am on the verge of a Coralline outbreak and that a few more critters will emerge. All I can do to fight the boredom.

[tjay]

Oh I did ad T5 lighting. that is fun

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by tjay
I am watching something down in one hole of a rock that has three hair like tentacles that are white and tan striped poking out but that is all I can see of what ever it is.



hopefully it is not aptasia..been getting rid of any that sprout up.

had an issue recently with a BTA that i added the other day..it decided to move up in a rock right in the middle of a large colony of xenia..was stinging the heck out of it and it was not looking happy at all.
the bta was attached deep within the rock crevice and i had to chisel a part of the rock and cut it away from where it was attached.. needless to say,,it was now the one not happy..
it seems to have recovered..but it looks like it is on the move again to somewhere..
luckily only lost one small xenia crown...so far..

[tjay]

Well if it is aptasia it will be lunch for my CBB in about three weeks

[cduran02]

I was 8 weeks fallow. The fish are doing fine getting used to the tank again. I just got a harlequin shrimp. Its in QT right now feeding on a star fish. Since they feed only on startfish, Im going to have to set up a small QT to keep the starfish I feed the shrimp.

Trigger: Those slugs never live long in captivity because they are carnivores and feed exclusively on a specific type of sponge (cant remember which one it is). My LFS carries a lot of those slugs, though I wish people would stop buying them, they are basically being condemed to death and the LFS nor the customers are aware of this.

[Triggerfish]

hmmm,,everthing i came across mentioned they are herbivorous,,consuming all types of algae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_hare
http://www.thejump.net/id/sea-hare.htm

[cduran02]

Ah....though it was a Nudibranch that you had, LFS usually carry those purple slugs with the orange tentacles.

Though the majority of slugs are carnivores, and a lot of sellers either dont know or just lie to make a buck. The best place for acurate slug info is at http://www.seaslugforum.net/.

[cduran02]

Here's a little something for those who want to treat with copper. Its an email response to a question I asked from Seachem's tech support for Cupramine:

"Our minimal recommended dosage is 14 days. You can always treat for
longer periods.

Ich has three main stages to its life cycle. Only one of these
stages leave them vulnerable enough for medication to kill them. The
stage you see are called trophonts. Your not actually seeing them,
they burrow into the skin of the fish. What you are seeing is almost
like a pimple on the fish, it is a pus filled sac attempting to
remove the parasite from the body. At this time they have already
been infected with ich for several days. The trophonts then fall off
the fish and settle to the bottom of the tank, where they attach and
begin cell division. This stage is called the tomont. The tomont
eventually ruptures releasing hundreds of free swimmers. The free
swimmers are called tomites. This is the only stage where you can
kill them. The tomites are relatively easy to kill with medications,
but the trophonts are buried in the fish's flesh and actually
protected to some extent by the fish's own mucous secretions, while
the tomonts are protected by their own hard shell. The tomites swim
around the tank looking for a fish to feed on. If they don't find
one they will die in about 48-72 hours. The complete life cycle can
take anywhere from 16-21 days depending on temperature.

Best Regards,
Seachem Tech Support~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ch"

[markcasto]

I have set up a small tank for QT my new corals and inverts as well, I don't want any more unwanted arrival in my maintank.

Seeing how things appear in the main tank at a later date like the bubble algae it would be a good idea to QT everthing for at least 4 weeks just to be sure you dont let something small and devious amongest the others.

Trigger-this bta what is that an anemone that is on the move?If so I have the same thing happening to my xenia colony my anemone keeps moving around and my xenia have shriveled up but since he moved past them they have come out again.

[tjay]

Hyposalinity if I understand it prevents tomonts from forming and releasing the free swimmers.
So once the trophants fall off the fish to the bottom they are doomed.

In the main tank free swimmers die because there is no host.

So to say the "only" stage you can kill them is as free swimmers is one I think many would debate.
It is indeed the stage that copper deals with them

[leebca]

Astute observations tjay. Too often the info on Marine Ich is 'simplified' or edited. Then you hear from there it is this; then you hear from another place it is this. It's the Land of Confusion.

The hypo treatment does indeed affect the tomont, preventing it from releasing the tomites.

Re the life cycle of 16-21 days. Not so. The tomont stage (cyst) has been found to 'live' up to 6 weeks without rupturing and releasing the tomites. That is why I recommend the 8-week (min) leaving the tank go fallow. This is why after the treatment, the fish needs to be held and observed for at least a month AFTER the hobbyist thinks the fish is cured.

Seachem isn't wrong. They are just quoting averages and generalities. But, we shouldn't use a treatment process based upon averages and generalities, in my opinion. I prefer to be sure. :)

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by markcasto

Trigger-this bta what is that an anemone that is on the move?If so I have the same thing happening to my xenia colony my anemone keeps moving around and my xenia have shriveled up but since he moved past them they have come out again.

yup..bubble tip. i have a large xenia colony 12-14 stocks on a large rock that it was almost right in the middle off..it anchored into a deep hole within the rock..i think he was happy there and probably wasnt going to move anytime soon.. luckily i only lost 2 of the smaller stocks..the bta is small only about 3" or so.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by tjay
So to say the "only" stage you can kill them is as free swimmers is one I think many would debate.
It is indeed the stage that copper deals with them

exactly,,it is the stage that "medication" would deal with them and i believe that is what he was only referencing, not hypo.


Lee nice of you to chime in..
yes, it does appear seachem is using some other studies/documentation to determine the max length of the lifecycle. which based on everything i have come across, the lifecycle appears to be at least double that.
temperature dependent? i believe the longest recorded time for tomonts to hatch in non-tropical temps was 72 days.

[tjay]

I am such a noob at all of this. My only salvation when ich came to visit was found in the sick fish forum right here.
I spent a week reading everything I could on the subject and found the sticky articles in that forum to be the most helpful and imho very acurate.

It is from there that as a noob I think I could hold my ground with a veteran in a debate over the ich in every tank myth.

Finding out early is a blessing, I did not have an established tank with lots of rock and corals to deal with.

[leebca]

The 'temperature' comment probably is a carry over from freshwater ich.

The freshwater ich (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) is actually susceptible to death at elevated temperatures. So those familiar with the freshwater hobby and the dreaded 'true' ich tend to carry over some of what they learned about that ich to apply to Marine Ich. But, as it turns out, Marine Ich will still reproduce at temps as high as 89F. That reproduction is 'weak' by its normal standards. But, our reefs and most our fish will not do well at that temperature, while trying to fend off an attack. So raising the tank temp during the cure of Marine Ich-infested fish mostly harms the fish. :(

Temperature has a minor affect on the life cycle time of the Marine Ich parasite, until it reaches the extremes.

[cduran02]

I agree with that seachem shouldnt be basing treatment on generalities. Unfortunately I had gotten this email half way through my QT time period and I didnt want to put the fish through the copper treatment again. I just observed them for 6 weeks after the 2 week copper treatment. I saw no sign of the trophonts stage for about 6 weeks.

Of course, though the fish are back in the display after 8 weeks of QT, I still dont plan on adding any more fish for at least another 2 months.

[tjay]

Well it got sort of quiet over here so I thought I would report in.
The fallow tank is going nuts. I have hundreds of little critters on the back glass today. Some the size and movement characteristics of fleas, some about 1/16 of inch long that look like little worms and move in the same manner.
I am sure hoping these are copepods and not something bad.
I have something new growing on a rock I can not quite get a picture of that looks like a water melon seed with dots down two lines of its side. Hoping that to be a sponge of some kind.
I also have something that looks like aptasia except it is purple with no thick base. Does aptasia come in purple?????

The fish are doing great looking healthy and eating well. 3 weeks and counting.

Now here is a question, when it comes time to raise the salinity slowly I hear no more than .002 a day. How the heck do you do that or what are your plans to do it when your time comes????

On a bad note, I lost my second snail in two weeks in the main. What could be causing snails to die off in the fallow. Nothing to eat?

[leebca]

Snails can come and go. Was it a tropical snail? What did it eat? How long have you had it?

Use a formula for determining how to change your salinity. I've shared this one with others:
http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SalinityAdjust.php

Good luck! :)

[parks]

Hello all,
I am going through the hypo treatment on my tank also. I am having a problem getting rid of the ick even in the low salinity. I have a powder blue that still continues to get ick. I change about 25% of the water every other day. I am considering changing more like 80% for a few days until the ick is gone and giving the PBT a FW dip. I have also considered using copper in conjunction with the low salinity.
Any suggestions?

[tjay]

They were turbo snails, I bought three about two weeks in to a tank going on 4 months old. At the time I had a brown algae problem. I switched to RO/DI water and the algae went away. I have not been feeding the snails anything specifically. I put a few mysis in there a couple times a week for the cleaner shrimp, emerald crab. I also feed marine snow for the filter feeders.
So now only one snail is left. I am wondering if the crabs are getting them. I do have a couple of hermits in there as well.

Parks hypo or copper do nothing for the ich that is already embedded in the fish. So don't rush to another treatment. Once the ich falls off the fish it will die in the hypo tank and not resurface to infect. Patience is the key, and yes if the fish is not too fragile fresh water baths can help.
Help me out pros if that is bad advice.

[Triggerfish]

yes,,it's quiet here midway through the fallow stage.
you're probably seeing many types of pods..they are all over my front glass and my fuge is very populated as well.

aiptasia can come in different colors i believe.

haven't looked into procedures for raising sg yet..i will check out Lee's link shortly..thx.

ya,,if you have no algae, then they could starve..but yes,,snails can just go for no apparent reasons.. if your hermits are large enough they could kill the snails for their shells.. especially the blue legs.


Parks--what are you keeping your sg at? for how long? and what are you using to measure it with?

[tjay]

well i tried the calculator. It made me feel real blonde
could not make sense of it

[leebca]

tjay,

Good advice to Parks. Just incomplete. You have to be a virtual psychic to help people. In Parks' case, you have to ask questions. What salinity is he using? How is he measuring it? How long has he ACTUALLY been doing it? . . .You see? You're trying to figure out if he's doing it right first, and just what a 'few days' means to Parks. Once you're sure he's doing it right AND has given it some time, then you can come in with the patience answer. :D

Keep on helping. You may get kicked now and then and thanked less than 20% of the time, but you are helping and that counts.
--------

Turbos will eat other (plant) foods, too. Be sure to feed your tank so that the algae continues to grow. OR add nori, algae or some of those algae wafers while the fish are gone. If you have too many snails for the food, then some will die off. As for hermits. Don't get me started. They should be removed from all reef aquariums, in my opinion! ;)

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by leebca
In Parks' case, you have to ask questions. What salinity is he using? How is he measuring it? How long has he ACTUALLY been doing it?

Originally posted by Triggerfish

Parks--what are you keeping your sg at? for how long? and what are you using to measure it with?


well,,i had the appropriate questions,,,but not in the correct order..damn,,i feel i am getting close though. :D :D

[leebca]

order. . .:lol:

[tjay]

lee thanks so much, That is why I added the disclaimer.
I am tickled to death with our progress. No major setbacks yet, well except for the ich infected fish we plopped in the main tank that has us where we are now.
But again I feel lucky it happened now and I learned the correct way before getting to far along.
I only have 3 hermits in the tank and I don't plan to add more. I will most likely pick up a few more snails after the qt tank is back out of hypo. Don't think they would last long in there now, and ill be dang if they are getting in my main without a QT

I did just find two bristle worms in there as well. One is about 1.5 inches dark in the middle light on both ends. The other I could not get a length on because it was moving around in a rock but it was a pinkish color under the actinic

I am off to do some research on them as I have no clue if they are good worms or bad worms

[parks]

Hello again...

I have been doing hypo for two weeks. The first week was getting the salinity down to 1.009. And the second week I have been holding at that salinity level. I am testing with a modified swing arm tester. I just put some putty on it to compinsate for the different weight of the low salinity water... Just kidding. I am keeping track of the salinity with a pinpoint monitor. The temp is 81degrees. I am also circulating the water with a powerhead and the return from the precision marine skimmer that is skimming the tank. The tank is a 30 gallon. The PBT was a fish that I have always wanted. I had ick in my main tank and decided to remove all of the fish. In the process I came across a nice PBT for only $24. Naturaly I picked him up. He did not even show signs of ick until the water was almost at the target salinity. I gave him a FW dip and did a large water change and it seemed to go away. Now he has gotten it again and the whole time he has been in low salinity. I was initially under the impression that the ick would die once it fell off and it would not infect the fish again. That has not been the case so far...unless the ick is just finishing out its life cycle...but it seems he has been re-infected. What do the pros think?

[cduran02]

Just though Id drop in and give a quick status. Its going on six days since the fish were returned to their home and everything looks good. They have gotten re-acustomed to their tank. At the moment I have a halequin shrimp in QT, thinking of letting this beauty in QT for about 6 weeks, but still wondering how am I going to feed it while in QT, they only eat live sea stars which means I will need to buy a supply of sea stars that would last it months (each sea star will need to be QT'd before being fed to the shrimp when its in the display). Im going to look into raising my own supply of sea stars.

My wife is dying to add one more fish, but Im holding out for at least 4 months before adding another fish. I want to make sure everything is going good before adding more fish.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by parks

The first week was getting the salinity down to 1.009. And the second week I have been holding at that salinity level.
I am keeping track of the salinity with a pinpoint monitor. I was initially under the impression that the ick would die once it fell off and it would not infect the fish again. That has not been the case so far...unless the ick is just finishing out its life cycle...but it seems he has been re-infected.


so it has been at the target sg for 1 weeks,,probably another cycle got loose b/f the sg was at its target, which is what you are seeing now.
when was the last time the monitor was calibrated?

[leebca]

Hold fast, cduran02. Your patience will pay off.


-----------

I'm off on a business trip. Might not be able to check in for a while.

:cool:

[cduran02]

I need to find out hold to raise my own star fish. I will need a constant supply of them or I would have to set up two tanks just for stars. In one I would keep fresh supply and in the other QT the next batch.

[Triggerfish]

Ok,,i checked out Lee's link,
http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SalinityAdjust.php
this is the procedure it says to follow when i entered raising the water 3PPT for each change. thinking that this should be slow enough.

"When raising the salinity, no water should be discarded. You should raise the salinity of the water removed to the value shown and then replace the water into the system."

This plan calls for 5 water changes
Tank Sal. (BEFORE) /Gallons/ Salinity Tank Sal. (AFTER)
1 2.127 sg / 1009 ppt/ 51.3/ 2.132 sg / 1012.216374269 ppt 2.131 sg / 1012 ppt
2 2.131 sg / 1012 ppt /51.3/ 2.136 sg / 1015.216374269 ppt 2.136 sg / 1015 ppt
3 2.136 sg / 1015 ppt/ 51.3 /2.141 sg / 1018.216374269 ppt 2.14 sg / 1018 ppt
4 2.14 sg / 1018 ppt /51.3/ 2.145 sg / 1021.216374269 ppt 2.145 sg / 1021 ppt
5 2.145 sg / 1021 ppt /51.3 /2.147 sg / 1022.0721247563 ppt 2.147 sg / 1022 ppt


i am not sure how i will change 51g at a time. it will not leave enough water in the tank for the fish.
maybe i could change 30g and stretch it out to 6 days.
wonder what the duration should be per change..
every 24 hours be slow enough.

[markcasto]

Hi everyone again been busy putting in a new kitchen phew...

Now in my 3rd week and all is well no itch, salinity holding at 1.009 the ammonia is no longer a problem, and my tangs are feeding well and looking good.Bubble algae is beginning to grow on me it looks pretty cool and I am going to get a foxface to deal with it so thats something to look forward to.

Will be raising the salinity on the 4th week shouldnt be a problem with the refractometer. Hi parks- have you got a refractometer? if not they are worth getting makes it a lot easyer to read the salinity levels.

[leebca]

Triggerfish,

Let's try that calculation again.

I suggest you do the following (despite what the directions say!)

Put in the number of gallons of your water (make the actual number, not the size of the tank).

For the current salinity, use ppt (not sp. gr.) I think you're running at 12? Put in 12

For the target salinity, use ppt (not sp. gr.) I think you want about 34 ppt. Put in 34

The next blank tells the calculator how fast you want to go. I suggest putting in 1.500 (use the zeros).

The last blank, leave blank. That is what the calculator will determine.

Then see what you get. I think the numbers will be an improvement for you?

Make each of those changes twice per day or about 12 hours apart.

Let us know!

[tjay]

yes please I could not get it to work for me.

[leebca]

tjay,

You got it okay?

Fill in the number of gallons of water in your quarantine tank with the low salinity (not the size of the tank, but the number of gallons of actual water in the system).

Put in the current ppt. That should be 12

Put in the target salinity in ppt. That should be 34

The next blank tells the calculator in what increments you want to raise the salinity. I suggest you use: 1.500 (include the zeros).

Leave the last blank, blank.

Click on the calculate button and below will appear the table to follow. You will take out the number of gallons indicated, add salt mix to that to raise it to the salinity indicated, then return that water to your quarantine tank. I'd suggest making one adjustment every 12 hours.

Does this make sense? Does it work?

Give it a try. Good luck!

[tjay]

Tank Sal. (BEFORE) Gallons Salinity Tank Sal. (AFTER)
1 1.009 sg / 12 ppt 2 1.037 sg / 48.75 ppt 1.01 sg / 13.5 ppt
2 1.01 sg / 13.5 ppt 2 1.038 sg / 50.25 ppt 1.011 sg / 15 ppt
3 1.011 sg / 15 ppt 2 1.039 sg / 51.75 ppt 1.012 sg / 16.5 ppt
4 1.012 sg / 16.5 ppt 2 1.04 sg / 53.25 ppt 1.014 sg / 18 ppt
5 1.014 sg / 18 ppt 2 1.041 sg / 54.75 ppt 1.015 sg / 19.5 ppt
6 1.015 sg / 19.5 ppt 2 1.043 sg / 56.25 ppt 1.016 sg / 21 ppt
7 1.016 sg / 21 ppt 2 1.044 sg / 57.75 ppt 1.017 sg / 22.5 ppt
8 1.017 sg / 22.5 ppt 2 1.045 sg / 59.25 ppt 1.018 sg / 24 ppt
9 1.018 sg / 24 ppt 2 1.046 sg / 60.75 ppt 1.019 sg / 25.5 ppt
10 1.019 sg / 25.5 ppt 2 1.047 sg / 62.25 ppt 1.02 sg / 27 ppt
11 1.02 sg / 27 ppt 2 1.048 sg / 63.75 ppt 1.021 sg / 28.5 ppt
12 1.021 sg / 28.5 ppt 2 1.05 sg / 65.25 ppt 1.023 sg / 30 ppt
13 1.023 sg / 30 ppt 2 1.051 sg / 66.75 ppt 1.024 sg / 31.5 ppt
14 1.024 sg / 31.5 ppt 2 1.052 sg / 68.25 ppt 1.025 sg / 33 ppt
15 1.025 sg / 33 ppt 2 1.044 sg / 57.5 ppt 1.026 sg / 34 ppt

That worked better, wow that should be easy.

[leebca]

Good job! :thumbsup:

[Triggerfish]

well must have inputted the wrong figures..:D
here is what it looks like now..this will be a bit more realistic..hehe. 2g changes..


This plan calls for 12 water changes
Tank Sal. (BEFORE) Gallons Salinity Tank Sal. (AFTER)
1 1.009 sg / 12 ppt 2 1.037 sg / 49.5 ppt 1.01 sg / 13.5 ppt
2 1.01 sg / 13.5 ppt 2 1.039 sg / 51 ppt 1.011 sg / 15 ppt
3 1.011 sg / 15 ppt 2 1.04 sg / 52.5 ppt 1.012 sg / 16.5 ppt
4 1.012 sg / 16.5 ppt 2 1.041 sg / 54 ppt 1.014 sg / 18 ppt
5 1.014 sg / 18 ppt 2 1.042 sg / 55.5 ppt 1.015 sg / 19.5 ppt
6 1.015 sg / 19.5 ppt 2 1.043 sg / 57 ppt 1.016 sg / 21 ppt
7 1.016 sg / 21 ppt 2 1.044 sg / 58.5 ppt 1.017 sg / 22.5 ppt
8 1.017 sg / 22.5 ppt 2 1.045 sg / 60 ppt 1.018 sg / 24 ppt
9 1.018 sg / 24 ppt 2 1.047 sg / 61.5 ppt 1.019 sg / 25.5 ppt
10 1.019 sg / 25.5 ppt 2 1.048 sg / 63 ppt 1.02 sg / 27 ppt
11 1.02 sg / 27 ppt 2 1.049 sg / 64.5 ppt 1.021 sg / 28.5 ppt
12 1.021 sg / 28.5 ppt 2 1.05 sg / 66 ppt 1.023 sg / 30 ppt


i went with 30ppt to end as the final will be when they are plopped back in main tank.
ok, every 12 hours sounds good.


Mark -- so you're doing hypo for 4 full weeks, then monitoring for 2 more weeks or what?

i think i may follow the link here that prefers 6 weeks,,but indicates a min of 4.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

[tjay]

Im going to be closer to 8 than 6 by the time I am all done. But hey better safe than sorry. I just read another thread where I guy was in 5 years before getting stung with ich.

I can see how you can get sucked in to thinking "it wont happen to me"
I hate that it happened but now was the best time for me to learn the cold hard truth. No QT means no peace.

[markcasto]

Trigger- going hypo for 4 weeks then slowly raising the salinity for the last 2 weeks. So 6 weeks total QT time for the fish and the tank being fallow.I want to see some fish back in my tank this is getting to me now,and my flame angel is not eating very much at all in the QT tank.

[Triggerfish]

ok,,it appears this is going to drag out a bit with a couple of my fish. 1 spot has shown up on my niger and puffer two days ago.
i thought they may have been air bubbles, but have since ruled that out.:rolleyes:

my maroon has looked good since he has been in the QT 3.5 weeks ago..i will plan on moving him to a separate tank to raise the sg next week. it appears he remains on target to go back after 6 weeks.

Angel has looked good for almost 2 weeks now. he was the one that was hosting most of the parasites, so i figured he was going to be the target fish to watch for eradication,,that has since proven to be false.
each fish will need to be quarantined for 6 weeks after the last spot has been noticed. so basically i am starting over with 2 of the fish.

i figured since i only got the refractometer a week ago, the sg may not have been correctly maintained at 1.009 or lower, and in fact i do not believe it was. so as a result, it has allowed from appearance, a very small c. irritan population to survive. also any evaporation needs to be topped off quickly as to not allow sg to rise. due to this occurance, i will plan on maintaining sg at 1.008 to allow for small flucuations.

SUMMARY
> lower sg to 1.008
> move maroon to 10g QT on 6/25 and begin to raise sg - continue to monitor separately for 2 weeks.. move back to main tank on 7/9 if still ich free. 6 total weeks.

[markcasto]

Ohh I am so fed up this morning all the fish in my refuguim were dead! I lost my lovely yellow tang 2 cardinals and my little madarin something died in the tank a worm thing and they all died within 4 hours.I was outside while the guy was laying the flooring in our living room if he had the common sense to tell me they were in trouble I could have saved them so so so fed up with all this.

[Triggerfish]

man that blows.. the fuge is not plumbed into the main?

how the heck big was the worm to cause that much of an issue.
did you measure the NH3 level in there to determine if that was the likely cause?

[cduran02]

What type of flooring was he laying down? If it was anything that required some sort of adhesive, the fumes couldve gotten into the water and killed everything in it.

[markcasto]

I suspected that it may be the spray he used to stick the lino down but I tested the water and the ammonia level was off the scale the water stinks too. Last night I tested it and the ammonia was zero this morning at 9am the fish were fine then at 3pm when he had finished they were all dead and the ammonia level was sky high.

I pulled the rock out and smelled it to see if something inside had died it was really whiffy. I don’t think it was the guy laying the floor he was careful around the tank. Sigh oh well at least my regal tangs are still ok in my QT tank. I hate it when my fish die I really loved those fish and I feel bad about it.

Just goes to show how important it is to keep a regular check on your stock those fish died in less then 4 hours because I had to wait outside while the floor was done. In fact only one fish survived in there and that was my cleaner wrasse that had gone over the glass to the other side and avoided the ammonia peek.

Well when this is all over and the fish are back in my main tank I am going to be very vigilant about checking my stock each day.
:(

[leebca]

Triggerfish,

I don't quite understand the logic behind the move with the maroon.

Are all your fishes in the same hospital tank for treatment, or are they in different tanks?

Regards,

[markcasto]

Dont you just wish that ich was bigger so you could pull it out of your tank with your bear hands and hit it with a crow bar!grrrrrr

[markcasto]

Only 17 days to go now then the fish can go back home at last.No itch on any of the QT tank fish for 4 weeks looking good.I am going to start from scratch with the refugium dont know what died in there but it sure does stink.

Typical isnt it take my eyes of the refugium for 1 morning and the fish die.Really sad about losing those fish I loved my little madarin and the yellow tang dam those emperor cardinals where nice fish to.Well at least the god dam whitespot is dead now.

[tjay]

All of mine that were exposed are staying in the tank for the duration. I would fear moving one out before the end of the full treatment.
My luck it would have ich on it that was not visible and I would end up contaminating the whole group again.

I have my calculations for water changes set to go. I will need to do 13 every 12 hours to get to 1.024. Then I am going to do a slow acclimate unto the main tank.

Lee should there be a fresh water dip in the middle of the transfer?
I sure would hate to put them trough that if it is not needed. The move is going to be stressful enough. I just hope the little copper band does not have such a feast on the feather dusters that it stops eating the prepared food we feed.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by leebca

Are all your fishes in the same hospital tank for treatment, or are they in different tanks?


they are in the same tank..that's the issue with treating more than 1 fish in the same system..each fish could host at different times and some not at all.

the maroon has been clean(visibly) for about 6 weeks now. 2 in main and going on 4 in QT. my angel,,clean for 15 days,,puffer and niger and 1 damsel have 1 spot each..so they will need to remain for another 6 weeks after the last spot is noticed.
the outbreak in the QT seems to be so incredibly small, i mean 3 spots visible,,suprisingly, the angel who was like a 'magnet' b/f has not been infected..

in fact,the only reason i took the maroon out was so i could keep the main tank fallow..except the LMB..still have my fingers crossed on that decision.
i am going to stick with the 6 weeks ich free theory, this fish will be 8 weeks.

my quarantining practice for new arrivals is still being researched,,however i believe they will go right into hypo for 3 weeks and if no ich is noticed during that time will be ready for main tank after 4 weeks..
if i was not going to use hypo treatment i would quart for 6 weeks.

ya tjay,,the dusters are out in full force..i know my angel will be feasting non stop.
picked up a couple more corals today..damn good deal that even a broke hobbyist couldn't pass up..
9 headed candycane and humungous gsp rock for $30:D

[tjay]

I am wondering about the later additions.
Should they be treated with Hypo if there are no signs of ich?
My feelings was no, but I like hearing all the opinions. I had planned to keep the water changes going from my main to the QT weekly but that would not create hypo.

I don't think I will ever do hypo again unless a new arrival develops ich in the QT. Other wise they just get a 4 - 6 week get to know me visit in the QT kept cycling by the changes from the main.

Is this a sound decision or would it be better to do prophylactic treatment for new arrivals?

[Triggerfish]

no you would not have to do hypo for new arrivals that 'appear' to be ich free.,,you would just have to quarantine for a FULL 6 weeks. for a complete added safety cushion, you could hypo for 6 weeks..basically, from the readings, you then can be pretty certain of not introducing the parasite.

i am going to go with the minimum hypo requirement for new arrivals of 3 weeks as mentioned here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

if i develop an issue down the road i will increase it to 6 weeks.

[markcasto]

Yes a full 6 week QT for new arrivals sounds like a good safe plan.I am going to pick up 2 banggai cardinals next week to replace my losses and I will give them a fresh water dip and 6 weeks QT before they go to the main tank.Dont think I will use hypo treatment unless I see any infection during that time though.

[leebca]

tjay,

No. The point of the hospital treatment was to make your fish Marine Ich free. No need to FW dip.

:)

[leebca]

Triggerfish,

Just because you can't 'see' the Marine Ich, doesn't mean the fish isn't infected with it. Marine Ich's favorite hiding place is in the gills.

If the maroon (or any fish) doesn't show signs of Marine Ich but is in a tank where it is, or could be, the fish must continue its treatment through to the end. Otherwise, you defeat the purpose of the whole process.

:)

[leebca]

Triggerfish et al,

I would discourage the invention of new procedures and the following of old, proven wrong procedures.

For instance, look at the article that Triggerfish referenced for doing a hypo for 3 weeks. The author says that a salinity of 16ppt is where a hypo treatment belongs, but he recommends a 14ppt. Where else have you found that 16ppt was the target salinity?

Now, let's take the case of a new fish. You don't know if it has Marine Ich or not. It was proposed to put it into quarantine and treat with hyposalinity for 3 weeks. Does this really make sense?

For the fish you are now treating with hyposalinty, how long are you keeping them in the treatment? You should be keeping them in the treatment until the last spot is seen, then at least 4 more weeks. THEN, after treatment, you should keep them in quarantine another month for observation to verify they are clean of MI and your treatment was successful. If this is true, then why would 3 weeks in hypo be sufficient?

Next, the hyposalinity treatment in quarantine just attacks a single microbe. You have to get real here. The reason for quarantine isn't just for Marine Ich, it is for the dozens of other afflictions that your fish could have.

That is why quarantine should last no less than 6 weeks. Don't lose sight of the purpose of the quarantine --- it isn't just for Marine Ich. AND, don't mix quarantine with treatment. They each have their own guidelines.

Everyone who would like to go through what you're going through again, when your display is infected with MI because you cut short the quarantine time, please raise your hand! :wave:

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by leebca

Just because you can't 'see' the Marine Ich, doesn't mean the fish isn't infected with it. Marine Ich's favorite hiding place is in the gills.

i have heard about gill infections.
it's very possible that any length of quarantine <1 year will not be adequate as the gills could just keep being infested going unnoticed. i would think that as the population increases the fish would have increased difficulty. however, there is no way to be sure, or would there be if it continues to be a low level infection not resulting in death?

unless you quarantine separately for 1 year so that the c.irritan cell lines will age and die,,you cannot be sure. (Burgess and Mathews 1994).

yes,,that article has some conflicting info..
i am going to go by visibility and maintain in quarantine for "at least 4 weeks after the dissapearance of the last cyst."
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
hopefully this article is not outdated yet...

that will be 5 weeks in quarantine..if it's in the gills then even 30 weeks may not be long enough. I would like to keep this reasonable while still adhering to written documentation.
This is a "quest' and still may not be fullfilled during the 1st attempt.. the tank was "visibly ich free" for 1.8 years prior to this.
no quarantine practice..just stupid luck.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by leebca

I would discourage the invention of new procedures and the following of old, proven wrong procedures.

Everyone who would like to go through what you're going through again, when your display is infected with MI because you cut short the quarantine time, please raise your hand! :wave:

i have yet to come across documentation that suggests 8 weeks quarantine. the most i have seen is 6 weeks.. and 4 the minimum.
again going by the lifecycle at tropical temps and SG it appears that 10-39 days would be the timeframe, with 17 days being peak.
if it's there, you should see something..if it's in the gills and not visible, then anything <1 year will not matter anyway.

the parasite strain could have gone through as many as 4 lifecycles within that 6 weeks quarantine time. again,,each one having gone unnoticed. if the quarantined specimen continues to behave normally as when 1st introduced,,i cannot assume that the possible gill infestation is getting worse.
what would another 2 weeks really accomplish here? would the fish suddenly be stricken down on the 5th or 6th attack,,possibly but i will need to witness that myself as i have not seen data that supports such specific findings.

if the parasite is harboring in the gills during each infestation then you cannot be certain of not introducing it unless you quarantine for 1 year minimum.

[tjay]

The discussion is getting interesting. I read tons of articles for a while trying to get a handle on all this. What I found was the more I read the more confused I got.
I backed away from it for a couple days, then took an inventory of the resources I had read. Then using my own sense of what was valid or not ( just a gut call) I decided on the five part series and the Steve Pro series on QT tanks. There were articles that conflicted with those writings but those are the two that I chose to formulate my plan.
When it is all said and done, my tank will have been fallow for 7 weeks and the fish in low salinity for 5 weeks 1 week stabilizing the tank, one week raising the salinity back to normal levels.
Will that formula result in an "ich free tank" well I suppose we will know in a month or so, although I could see this discussion going for much longer especially if one of us has an outbreak in the Main again.
The whole quest thread should prove to be a valuable one over time if it has not already.

[Triggerfish]

it appears, as Lee illustrated, that at least the 3rd part of that series(if we're talking about the same one) regarding hypo treatment procedures is outdated.

i feel once you have an understanding of what the 'normal' parameters are regarding the parasite you can equate them to what quarantine practice you should follow. and yes, if it doesn't work out you will need to take note and make adjustements..i have no problem doing that. i will document everything we all did and summarize the data. if there is an issue we can go back and annalyze.
keep in mind, my tank is not completely fallow- my LMB is in there hopefully immune to the pathogen. so if i have to start over that will be the primary issue to look at. but,,it may have been the quarantine practice as the cause, it's still experimental and i am just going to go by how things appear and tweak along the way if need be until i have a consistant ich free tank..this thread could go on for another 40 yrs.:D

however,,as each procedure fails,,every step that was taken will be analyzed and adjusted as need be. and if i end up having to quarantine for a year then that is what i will proceed to do..
but am starting at ... still to be determined. :rolleyes:

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by leebca
For the fish you are now treating with hyposalinty, how long are you keeping them in the treatment? You should be keeping them in the treatment until the last spot is seen, then at least 4 more weeks. THEN, after treatment, you should keep them in quarantine another month for observation to verify they are clean of MI and your treatment was successful.


Ok,,it appears that Lee has come up with a solid minimum quarantine time frame.
here is how I look at it based on normal lifecycle data taking the later time stage during each part of the cycle.


1. 7 days - you buy what appears to be a clean fish, however ich could be in the gills going unnoticed - or a small spot may be missed.

2. 2 days - ich free swims

3. 28 days - encystment - hopefully hypo took care of most of these, but there is no guarantee.

4. 2 days - Free swim

5. 10 days - monitor for the visible sign of the parasite - again in gills we have no way of knowing if fish continues to behave normally.

6. 7 days - the extra added time to watch for signs of parasite or change in fish behavior..it's a few extra days in case any part(s) of the lifecycle stages were extended.

TOTAL: 56 DAYS


Summary:
6 weeks - Hypo new livestock
1 week - raise sg to main tank levels
1 week - continue to monitor

8 weeks quarantine new livestock

[cduran02]

Now what about non-fish that is QT'd? ie. live rock, inverts, etc.

In this case they would not be infected with ich, but may be carrying it in one of its forms.

[leebca]

You shouldn't put a time limit on each stage. Each stage has a range. We figure on the high end of each range. That is being conservative, and after 35 years of success at it, I'd say conservative is successful.

1. A tomite can live in the flesh or gill without becoming a trophont for up to 10 days;

2. The trophont falls off OR moves to a new location on the fish (the latter no likely, but has been known to happen).

3. Trophont encysts. In warm water, up to 14 days.

4. Tomites are released and must find host within 2 days.

5. Infected fish can only have one tomite which turns into a trophont which goes unnoticed by the aquarist. The cycle could start over again even without the aquarist aware of there having been a cycle. Because of this, the times are extended.

Until the number of tomites produced infect the fish so that it becomes obvious to the aquarist, several weeks could go by.

For 35 years this is how I've done it successfully:

1. FW dip in Methylene Blue all new fish;
2. Quarantine for 6 weeks. No signs of a problem, into the display; if a problem, go on to 3.

3. Cure diseased fish. IF it is MI, then choose hypo or copper. If hypo go on to 4. If copper go on to 5. If not MI go to 6.

4. Lower salinity to between 11 and 12ppt. When last spot is gone, count 4 weeks. Raise salinity slowly over a 1 week period. Hold fish in quarantine for at least one more month to verify it is healthy, then into the display.

5. If treating by copper, treat per medication recommendations. After treatment, hold fish in quarantine for at least one more month to verify it is healthy, then into the display.

6. After fish is cured, hold fish for at least one month in quarantine to verify it is cured and healthy, then into display.

You'll find that most of the above in Steven Pro's article, which I've been doing since the late 60's.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by cduran02
Now what about non-fish that is QT'd? ie. live rock, inverts, etc.



good question and was going to follow-up concerning that.

i would say 1 month should be adequate if a cyst is attached to the rock, invert. give time to blow off and then die due to lack of suitable host. you just would not be able to quarantine with fish.

sort of whacked that you would have to quarantine a 1" acro frag for a month due to a possible ich cycst.:rolleyes:

[leebca]

Check out (again):
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.htm

[tjay]

the only fish that I had with white spots died within 12 hours of going into hypo after a short fresh water dip. ( it was short because the fish was dying )
There were only two fish in the QT after removing the dead fish. (yellow eyed tang) this was the fish that was purchased with ich and contaminated the tank.
The remaining fish a yellow tang and a blue damsel, never showed white spots. Only scratching and lathargic behavior.
So they were in there a week while I got the salinity and water params stable. I started counting 4 weeks from after that week. That period actually ended today. So by next week they will have been in the QT with no signs of ich for 7 weeks.
So your saying I should wait another month now before returning them to the tank?

Now the fallow period of 7 weeks, is that enough in your opinion?

[leebca]

Now you raise the salinity over the next 7-10 days. Then, you hold the fish for at least 3 more weeks in quarantine to be sure they are disease free.

The display tank, in my opinion must lay fallow for 8 weeks. 7 isn't wrong; 6 is a little light; 8 is nearly 100% sure it is MI free.

[tjay]

got ya
thanks
Hey at this point, I have a lot of time invested. Dont want to stumble now

[markcasto]

I am wondering at this point just how much people are prepared to trust there local fish stores who tell them that the fish they are paying for have gone through quarintine.I know I could not and would not trust any of them in my area no matter how careful they are its just to risky.

[cduran02]

Its not cost effective for the LFS to QT all their stock, if they did, you would be paying almost triple what you pay now for fish.

[tjay]

I disagree with that. Here is why. As hobbyist we spend a lot of money. I bought the ich laden fish from a local fish shop and that fish had to have been sick when I bought it.
We went back to the store and told the guy and he gave us the same song and dance about no local fish shop standing behind their fish. Well he lost a good paying customer for life. So how much did it cost him not to QT, or if he is not going to QT how much did it cost him not to offer some assistance for selling a sick fish. A credit or some concern about selling us a contaminated fish would have corrected our relationship. Now think about the online reseller's. Some of them offer 14 day guarantees.
Now If I am a fish buyer, why would I do business with local shops when I can get better protection from buying sick fish using online vendors. LFS's are going to loose business to online services if they do not protect their market share.
We making most of our future fish purchases from one of the online vendors that use net caught fish and offer a 14 day guarantee. We have a local shop that handles decent corals and will do business with them.
How cost effective is it to run your customer base away by forcing them to choose Russian roulette to a two week fighting chance????

[plaz]

I agree. We only buy fish from LiveAquaria and MarineCenter now because of that (and try to only do it when the weather is good across the nation).

[cduran02]

Think about it this way, when an LFS gets a shipment of fish, do you think it is cost effective to QT those fish for 6 to 8 weeks? Thats 6 to 8 weeks of electricity being used for pumps. 6 to 8 weeks making water changes. 6 to 8 weeks of feeding. 6 to 8 weeks with no income from that stock of fish.

Thats not cost effective at all. Even though they lost you as a customer, there are plenty of other un-informed customers going in to buy more fish. The online stores on the other hand have a more informed customer base, therefore they need to gaurantee there fish or else they could loose a large portion of sales.

[leebca]

One, not-so-good assumption.

The online stores don't necessarily quarantine their fishes.

Although 14 day guarantee is unusual, some just guarantee their arrival; some just guarantee two or three days after their arrival. Those online stores are still playing a game with time. A diseased fish will not show its disease until after the guarantee is up and if it does, they can afford to replace the fish.

You have to read the guarantees closely. Some just say they will arrive alive; others say they will arrive alive and stay alive. But how many guarantees say their fish will be or remain disease-free during that guarantee?

What curan02 is writing about the LFS applies to the majority of online fish suppliers too, to some extent.

It's 'read the fine print' game. Even if you have a claim, there may be conditions (like shipping the dead fish back by over-night express) which could put brakes on claims.

[markcasto]

I know one supplyer who is very careful with his live stock and uses quarintine for all his fish but despite this I still would not trust his good practice enough to put any fish in my tank with out the 6 week QT practice we are aiming at here.However I would prefer to buy fish from him knowing that they have been screened for any illness before going on sale.I get so sick of seeing fish stores that put profit over the animals care.

[tjay]

Please understand I am not saying we should not do our own QT no matter what the source is.
I just Know from my dealings with LFS's that they are doing exactly that, dealing with the masses and don't care if they sell you a fish that dies. From the experience that I had, not only do they not care but they will tell you you are nuts to QT.
I prefer to deal with sources that KNOW they are dealing with a more informed customer base.
I also prefer to deal with businesses that understand when they sell defective or damaged goods that they makes some effort to keep a customer.
I understand that a couple of the online vendors that Sponsor here have gone out of their way to make wrongs rights. That is all I would expect. I am going to QT no matter where it comes from. But if you sell me a fish that dies in QT within days of ich, man that is not right.

[markcasto]

I think a big part of the problem is that when you first start off in this hobby using QT is not high enough on your list of things to do.Its only when you face the problem for the first time that you wake up and smell the coffee so to speak.

It would be good if our local fish stores spoke more of using a QT tank to the beginners but I cant see it happining myself.Like most things in life we learn the hard way.

Lets hope many people will read this thread and learn from the information we are sharing here.

[leebca]

It's easy to figure out why they don't mention anything about a QT. They sold you on the idea of a marine aquarium. You're probably spending a few hundred $$. So, are they going to say, 'BTW you need another $50 or so to setup a QT and have to wait weeks before you put fish in your display because we usually sell sick fish.' NOT. :)

[tjay]

lol, true
so what does that say about LFS's or I suppose any for that matter. We have spoken with two online shops and plan to try them both. They give the 14 day live thing and both seemed supported by posts here.

[Triggerfish]

i prefer to buy my livestock locally. if you buy healthy looking stock and have success with a certain shop, then there ya go.
place orders through them.

on another note: i picked up a ton of stuff this weekend from a local dude who is leaving the hobby after only 1.5 yrs.
35+#'s of nice purple LR, with some sponges,shrooms,zoos and one has a lrge feather worm for 40 bucks.
bunch of full test kits(incl 4 salifert), reef additives, reef book the one by calfo/fenner,,2 lrg gsp rocks, 9 head candy cane, multi fingered green digi on lrge rock, some dry base rock, spare filter,,,bunch of other misc stuff. gave him $135 for everything including rock.
would be about a grand at an LFS.

got all the rock cycling in a 10g with small ph and 50/50 65w pc light. looks pretty cool actually..
now i really have no money..well,,i had no money before..now i have less.:rolleye1:

[tjay]

Dang how many tanks do you have going now?

[Triggerfish]

i didn't end up moving my maroon today as planned. so i am using the 10g to QT the rock, so only 3 tanks going now.
im not going to move the maroon out of the 55,,just will leave him in there until i'm ready to bring him out of hypo in a separate tank,,another week.

pic of the 10g loaded front to back
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/365lr_tank.JPG

[markcasto]

Triggerfish-I did the same and saved myself a fortune buying second hand stock but be warned the rock had bubble algae on it and more bristle worms then I wanted there were also some unwanted snails and nudibrances in there.And the old test kits I got from this lot where not accurate the nitrate test kit read zero the water from the old tank was 52ppm when i tested it with a fresh test kit.Looks like your going to have to QT all that new stock as well have fun!

[markcasto]

Dairy of Treatment using Hypo salinity. UPDATE...

Day 1. Removed all fish from 130 gallon tank into QT tank
Day 2. 52 gallon QT tank containing 3 Regal Tangs 8 Chromis 2 Damsels. Start to lower salinity by removing 20litres of water and replacing with fresh RO water.
20 gallon tank QT with 5 Clowns and 1 Flame Angel left to observe for a week.
Day 8. Salinity down to 1.009 in 52 gallon QT tank.
Day 37. Begin raising salinity slowly for 7 days till back to normal.
Day 45 Fish returned.
20 gallon tank treated with hypo salinity on 8th day raised back on day 37 along with 52 gallon tank.

No white spot after first week of hypo in 52 gallon, no white spot in 20 gallon at all.
Treated ammonia peeks with water changes and Seachems Prime tested for ammonia twice daily for 3 weeks at start. Also, used Seachems Stability to help establish the bio filter. Used a Deltic Refractometer and PH monitor to keep ph and salinity at correct levels during water changes.

Biggest problem was keeping ammonia levels down needed two ammonia test kits for this I used Tetra test kits which are easy to read and accurate.
Found the use of Seachems Prime and Stability helped a lot in this case.

This is the plan I am following, I am now on day 31.

[Triggerfish]

i believe these are the approaches the 4 of us have taken so far. let me know if something is off.

tjay
Main tank: fallow min 8 weeks
QT method: hypo 6 weeks last sign of ich, min 8 weeks total qt time

markcasto
Main tank: fallow 6.4 weeks
QT method: hypo 4.3 weeks, 6.4 weeks total qt time
Issues: NH3 problems to start off

cduran02
Main tank: fallow 8 weeks
QT method: 2 weeks copper, 8 weeks total qt time

triggerfish
Main tank: fallow min 8 weeks (LMB left in tank-immune?)
QT method: hypo 6 weeks last sign of ich, min 8 weeks total qt time
Issues: difficulty maintaining proper hypo sg level without use of refractometer. wasn't corrected until week 3 of quarantine

[cduran02]

You could also add that I did 2 gallon water changes (and correcting copper dosage during treatment) every two days for 3 weeks until the QT tank was completely cycled.

Also, as of this morning, no sign of ich re-occurance!! :) Still have a halequin shrimp in QT with 8 weeks supply of star fish to feed it. (I've got to find a way to breed these star fish, its a pita having to QT star fish so I can feed the shrimp.)

[Triggerfish]

ok,,i need a fish in the tank soon.
if my angel still looks good after 3 weeks of no ich signs,,(prior to this he was hosting like crazy), I'm bringing him out of hypo in a separate tank.
that will make 6 total weeks of qt and fallow tank.
I can't last longer than that. when i put him back i will monitor the results and report.
regardless of how long i qt these fish, it may not matter anyway due to the fact that i left the LMB in the main tank. if this doesn't work out,,i will remove him and try to feed him nori in the qtank to keep him alive. the qt is starting to grow some algae now so that will help.

i have absolutely no problems running this whole process over again for a longer duration. at least i will know that there are no other possible options, i can live with that..right now there is an option, and that is to put a fish back in after 6 weeks.
:D

[markcasto]

I'm with you on that one.
6 weeks is long enough for me to. I need my tangs back in there to munch on the algae and the others can feast on the pods and worms. If the ich comes back I will have my QT tanks at the ready this time.

I also did daily water changes for the first 3 weeks now doing them every 3 days and my seachem badge is working great having taken the faulty one back to the shop.But I would strongly advise any one who has not got the QT tank up and running to get two ammonia test kits some seachem prime and stability and test for ammonia twice daily for 3 weeks until it evens out.Better still get your filter in the main tank ready now and set up that Qt tank asap and have a 200litre container full of RO water ready to go.
Prevention is better then the cure.

[tjay]

I am starting my climb out of hypo tomorrow. So here we go

[Triggerfish]

mark - i'm on day 32. it's right around the corner.

tjay- good luck, hope all goes well during the climb.

btw: i just restocked on salt 200g bucket,,so i'm ready now..well to prepare it anyway..:D

[tjay]

Well the calculator kind of worked.
I mixed up the first two changes figuring if I had the next one made up ahead of time I could do the every 12 hour thing no problem
well turns out the first change raised the salinity .003
that was a little much so I am giving it 24 hours before doing the next one.
So my calculations raise the tank pretty fast. I was hoping to keep it under .002 a day.
Going to adjust a little on the next mix, still the calculator was better than totally guessing

[Triggerfish]

i took my angel out tonight..stressed him out big time trying to get him in the bucket. moved to the 10g.. i raised the sg the same amount as you..sitting at 1.012.
going to check on him now.......seems ok..has a nice cave to hang in.
i will leave all other fish out for probably another month,,to see if the angel comes down with anything when he goes back in.

[markcasto]

Only 10 days to go now going to start raising the salinity next in 3 more days.I have ordered two banggaie cardinals from my fish store. He told me they get them from TMC who qt them then they keep them for 7 days to make sure they are ok? not long enough really but they have to make a living and it up to us to QT our new stock if we dont want ich.It will be good to see my tangs back in the tank. Good luck every one lets hope the ich is gone for good.