Elegance problems still a problem?

[RobertK]

Hi there,
A while back there was a lot of talk about the low survival of elegance in peoples' tanks, and that it was most likely due to poor collection techniques. I haven't heard much about this for several months and was wondering if it was still a problem. I'd love to have one of these beautiful corals but have been staying away from them due to all the horror stories.
Thanks,
Robert

[Wolverine]

I had heard that the problems they saw at the collection sites were fixed, but many people are still having the same problems keeping them alive. There seem to be a few more success stories than before, but the majority of them turn out the same.
And, unfortunately, I can say that some of this information is first hand, since I had an elegance that looked beautiful for a while, and then completely crashed, even though everything else in the tank was thriving, and no parameters had changed. Sigh.

Dave

[smpolyp]

I posted on one site about a hypot that I have seen with elegance.I got no responce.I have seen in the past about 4 years ago or more that most elegance where not v shaped as most have had recently.It looked like it had come from a fragged part of the reef.One of my friends pointed out that he thougt that elegance were prob collected in more than one spot.From the reefs to the lagoons.He stated that he had had an elegance that went from a dirty water enviro (his tank since he feed alot with alot of fish and did min water changes)to a clean tank and died after doing so well for him.It sounded like me that he was talking about.I am not sure,but he sparked a thought.I thought deep about what eleg. that I have seen and I have to say most all of the ones I have seen that have done well look like they were fragged from a larger one or taken from a reef.All the others were V shaped.I maybe wrong with this all together.I cannot say I have paid that much attention,but do see it as a poss.What do you think?

[tritran]

All LPS corals need some kind of regular supplemental feedings to do well. Either the corals catch food that you feed when you feed your fish or you need to feed it directly.

If you have a healthy elegance to start with, attempt to feed it often (twice a week is a good start).

--Tri

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[Heinrich]

There are still problems with elegances. I can assure you of that. It's gotten better, and most cna be revived. I believe that's the problem, they're almost completely exausted, when they arrive in our tanks.
Mainly it's feeding and detritus and other nutrients that they need. They're not really a reefcoral at all. I've had several recover by placing it in some really really deep detritus, almost 1.5" deep layer of detritus. It seems the best method to revive them is plenty of food, immune boosters and protecting them from amphipods. Has anyone noticed this as well? That amphipods and coepods start attackingg the underside of some elegances when the light goes off?
They seem to loose their abbility to fight off these critters or the critters eat some nutritious slime? It's an occurance I've noticed in tanks with declining elegances. Mandarins help a little it seems, and people are going to think it's silly, but coral vital can really turn things around for some elegances and LPS. That and sano as well as foods with immunebooster have helped in turning around the demise of elegances. As well as antibiotic treatments at 80mg/gallon Furacyn and 300mg/gallon Neomyacin combinations in a treatment tank.
But then again strangely with the reefs declining the amount of elegances is almost increasing acording to some impoters I've taalked to?
93! Heinrich

[jimhobbs]

Heinrich,
NO! No, please say its No! :)
After the weekend I've had, I have to come here and read this! ;)

I've got thousands of these supposed "good guys" running around in my ten gallon tank...It recently recieved one of the first elegance corals I've even concidered since the difficulties...Today's the first full day I'll get to observe it expand; and if there's trouble I can take it home to another tank with less bugs per square inch sand bed area.....Amphipods have already been observed on the coral, but "no worries" cause these were "good guys".....

Man, I thought these were harmeless critters, devoid of their crustacian cousin opportunistic feeding natures...

See it before its gone: members.xoom.com/jimhobbs/worktank.htm (http://members.xoom.com/jimhobbs/worktank.htm)


<Bummed-out on a monday>, Jim

[Larry M]

Robert--Still a problem, for me anyway. I lost one just a month ago, it went in less than a week.


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Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
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[jimhobbs]

After three hours light, expanded fully as after introduction...Will watch it for signs of recession...

<better vibes> Jim

[Steve Richardson]

I got one about 2 months ago...perhaps against common wisdom which said dont. I had been reading about them being bottom lagoonal types, etc. The small specimen I saw also looked quite good - though that doesnt mean much it seems. I have noticed that the 4 or 5 other specimens that the LFS had have since shrunk up pretty much, and probably will not last.

Anyway... I fed it some brine right away... and it was doing fine for a few days...then began to close up, almost entirely.

Moved it lower...less current. No effect. Moved it somewhere else. Left for a day or 2. No response. Moved again. This went on for 2 weeks. Next day BOOM, it was wide open. I though it was merely a response to some zoanthid polyps right next to it...perhaps some warefare going on, so moved again. It closed up again. Moved it back to where it was, and it opened again.

Tenticles still a little short, but obviously better. Medium light (under VHO), and very little current. It has been doing pretty good for the last couple of weeks, so I'm getting hopefull its going to bounce back. Have been feeding brine/selcon about twice a week. If it does this well for a couple more weeks, I may consider trying to move it again to a more prominent location (it is quite pretty), but perhaps not if its happy where it is. :)

Sano? yikes... If I had to guess (and trust me, its only a guess), I'd say that sano probably isnt what these guys are looking for. This one specimen anyway, seems quite sensitive to location, water chemistry stability, and needs to be fed.

-Steve R.



[This message has been edited by Steve Richardson (edited 11-29-1999).]

[FOX]

Steve,

If I recall correctly, you hadn't found Aqualink before the major Sano wars took place. Well anyway, even the most devoted Sano haters, who actually tried the stuff, admitted that it did seem to at least cause corals to have better expansion if nothing else. I have also noticed this to be true. As I'm sure Ron will tell you, that doesn't neccesarily mean it's getting any more nutrition or making the corals healthier, but it does seem to illicit a feeding response.

FOX

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members.xoom.com/KoryFox/index.htm (http://members.xoom.com/KoryFox/index.htm)

[TimS]

It is still a problem. Mine lost 25% of is tissue, bare skeleton, and the tentacles completely disappeared two weeks after going into the tank. I noticed that shrimp and 'pods were chewing on it. Isolated the elegans in a container hanging on the overflow. The tissue is fully expanded. It has nubs for tentacles. It has lost no more tissue. I cannot tell if it is growing back over the bare skeleton. In comparison, the other elegans in the lfs where I bought mine are dead.

TimS

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There's No Place Like Home.

[KASESQ]

Elegance coral is going on my never-buy-again list-they have proven to be real heart breakers for me. All other corals doing great and reproducing...elegance shrinking away despite my best efforts. Feeding them, not feeding them, changing lighting, current rate, tried it all and they still croak. Leave em in the sea if it were up to me.fwiw, kas

[Steve Richardson]

Fox - yeah... I showed up right in the middle of the sano wars about a year ago wasnt it?. Ugly. You get a similar response from Coral Vital too, but I wouldnt put that stuff in my tank either. gawd... I dont want this to degenerate into a debate about the stuff, so I will drop it.

kas - unfortunately you are right... better left alone at this point. However, they will undoubtedly continue to be snapped up by people (such as myself, I suppose. Guilty as charged, and not especially proud of it.) as long as they continue to stock them in LFS. I'm not placing blame, just supposing that there will always be people willing to buy attractive corals if they are available...some ignorantly, some well-informed, most in-between. I certainly wouldnt recomend them to anyone.

-S

[Larry M]

I guess we could pass on the Sano war. Maybe we could argue about football instead. Besides, we'd need Phishmon here to really get things going and he has been pretty quiet lately. Working on his new lfs, I think.

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Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
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[RobertK]

OK, thanks everyone. I guess that answers my question! I'll have to find something else for that one corner of my tank.
Robert

[FOX]

Steve,

Yeah, it was defenitely ugly at times, but there was also alot of good information in those arguments if you could just wade through the garbage. I personally have had some major problems with Coral Vital that I've posted about many times.

Larry,

Yeah, I haven't talked to Rich in quite a while. As a matter of fact, he still owes me some cuttings, but I don't know what I'd do with them right now anyway.

FOX

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members.xoom.com/KoryFox/index.htm (http://members.xoom.com/KoryFox/index.htm)

[elvisdoc]

So are you guys saying there is no hope for an elegance? Guy here says brains are harder and has kept one alive (elegance) a few years...but I have never bought one due to watching them die over time at LFS. 'Course see lots of stuff die at that place...

BTW, missed the Sano Wars...sounds interesting.

What is that stuff anyway...kinda like Selcon?

elvis

[This message has been edited by elvisdoc (edited 11-29-1999).]

[Bass Cadet]

[Questionable data alert--I'm still a relative newbie so YMMV]

I've had an elegance for about 7 months now. It's hosting my pair of A. percula (I admit I tried keeping a carpet anemone before I knew better and couldn't keep it alive). The clownfishes behave like the elegance is an anemone: they like to snuggle in its folds and take the tentacles into their mouths. I do try to feed the elegance but the clowns always take the food away and seem to clean it whenever possible. Nevertheless, it seems to be in good condition and usually expands well.

My tank (50 gallons) is not in the best condition--hair algae and some red slime is beginning to form again. I have 7 fishes and feed often (trying to get the clownfishes to spawn, the Banggais are on their 6th brood).

FWIW,
greg

[Larry M]

One of these days Reef Central will get up the page about difficult/impossible corals to keep, and elegance will definitely be on there. In the meantime, how about a good ole fashioned Sano war to liven things up? FOX, you and I could pick team members??
;)

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Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
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[FOX]

Larry,

HaHaHa!LMAO!! That could be fun, but it seems to always drive people away. At least it did on Aqualink. Anyway, I've come to the point where I agree with the argument that nothing can be proved since we know nothing about what's in it. I just find it hard to believe that the dramatic difference I've had in fish survival has nothing to do with using it. But I still can't prove that it does anything. Oh well. Maybe some day it will be proveable(Is that a word?)

FOX

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members.xoom.com/KoryFox/index.htm (http://members.xoom.com/KoryFox/index.htm)

[KASESQ]

Greg-what are your water parameters (temp, alk, Ca level, ph) and what is your lighting ?Thanks, kas

[Bass Cadet]

(Finally had a chance to test my water.)
The parameters before I did a water change (usually 10% every other week with NSW [Catalina water]): Temperature ~80F, pH ~8.2, MG=1260, KH/ALK=7.2 dKH, CA=425. I restarted dosing about 10mL of each part B-Ionic every day. I'm embarrased to admit but a few weeks ago the water had dropped to MG=1245, KH/ALK=6.0 dKH (oops), CA=400. It didn't seem to effect the corals, though.

Lighting is 2x30W NO + 2x55W PC (170W over 50 gallons). Water flow is low. I have a hang on Turboflotor T-1000 with an Aquabee pump and the return is the only water movement.

As for the amphipods and copepods, I do have a mandarinfish so there probably aren't a lot.

HTH,
greg

[ReefDawg]

I hope Im not going to regret saying this but what makes my elegance so differant from yours? I too thought the problem had been solved and about a month and a half ago I picked one up. It looked good when I got it, brought it home and for about a week it was about half expanded, to be expected I thought. Then I added enough current to keep the tenticals waveing, and it opened up to twice the size it was at the LFS! It has been that way for the past month. I admit my tank(s) arent the cleanest,(could this be the trick?) 110w PC above the upper 20g, 40w for the lower 20g. Tanks are connected via an overflow with a rio 1700 circulating between the two. pH 8.1, ca&alk dont measure(coroline growth is good), mostly softies, Nitrites/nitrates at 0, amonia 0. small venturi skimmer, heavy fish load, 5g water change every 3 weeks or so. Could it be that they just dont like a sterile enviornment? Or is it too soon to tell with mine?

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A mind is like a parachute, it only works when its open.

[Wolverine]

ReefDawg, it's probably still too early to tell. The one that we had was fine for just under a month before it crashed. And I've seen them go as long as 4-5 months before the actual crash. And this is in VERY stable tanks where everything else is growing like crazy.
There are a lot of people out there who feel that a high nutrient environment is key to elegance corals, but there should be plenty of nutrients in our tank. In fact, I know that ours has a much higher nutrient load than the tank of a friend of ours, and his elegance has been doing fine, so I think this is only part of the story.
When we got ours, it was a little small for about 2 days, and then it opened up beautifully, much larger than it had in the store. And it was great for a long time, and then it suddenly started opening up a lot less. Then the tentacles started to look all shrivelled up, and the body looked REALLY bloated. This went on for about a week, and then it just stopped opening at all. I'll be staying away from them for quite a while.

Dave

[jimhobbs]

Oh No!!!!!!
I've got bare skeleton{about 3 ribs worth} on the end of my elegance!...I did the Tetra-D dip and will transfer to the home tank tomorrow...

Man, that was FAST!

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Tank at: members.xoom.com/jimhobbs/reefstats.htm (http://members.xoom.com/jimhobbs/reefstats.htm)

[elvisdoc]

Anybody read the article in December FAMA about Elegance corals by two Dutch guys from the Netherlands saying they keep them alive for years? What's up with that?

What's the longest you guys or gals have kept one? Tried once, no luck, but then again I am from Texas...did use a Dutch oven once, but don't think that counts.

elvis

[Chad]

I got one a week ago, it is already dead. Water perameters are good, VHO lighting, it never opened up. I will never, ever own one of these again. There are too many other corals out their that can prosper so well. The elegance is a losing battle.

[alde]

Hi All,

I don't have an Elegance now, but did a few years ago. I had it in my tank for almost 5 years and was doing well and growing. I gave it to a LFS when I moved out of the state.

The one thing that was common prctice then and not now is the use of wet/dry filters. I was using one then. Are the people keeping them alive using wet/dry filters? Maybe they need nitrates. I also just had a simple counter current skimmer. I am sure I had more nutrients in the water than the reef of today.

Best regards, Al

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He who feared he would not succeed sat still.

[cjdevito]

My elegance is two years old and has laid in two inches of skeletal height in that time, yet my tank runs with no detectable nitrates. Just FWIW.

[Bass Cadet]

KASESQ: I seem to recall reading in TRA or MCRA that they do like higher nutrient levels.

BDB: I agree with Fox, it sounds like a sponge. I have a pink one growing on mine as well as some bivalves(?) and other filter feeders. As for puffing up while shrinking its tentacles, mine seems to do that often when I feed (cryopaste) phytoplankton.

Alde: nope, no wet dry. Just a protein skimmer. I had an underpowered skimmer for a while and replaced it with a Turboflotor. Doesn't seem to have made a difference with the elegance.

I'm still interested in the possible (lack of) copepod/amphipod connection. I know another reefkeeper with two elegances who has a mandarinfish in his tank. I think Charles also has a dragonet. Same tank?

greg

[alde]

Hi All,

The Manderin connection is interesting. A friend who is also a member of this list has an elegance that was doing great until his manderin died. A few weeks later the coral started to decline. I'm sure his population of pods went up. Hmmm, very interesting.

Al

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He who feared he would not succeed sat still.

[KASESQ]

It sounds to me like whatever the secret is to keeping elegance corals is the same secret
needed to keep Goniopora. I have the same
symptoms with both-they appear to be starving
to death. As was pointed out above, perhaps
our tanks are TOO clean??

[Big Daddy B]

I've had one for about 9mos and it has grown considerably. To my knowledge the problems had just started when we got it. It was completely open 5 minutes after introduction, and hasn't really stopped since. Mine actually every once in while does what was described earlier, puff up real big and shrivel it's tentacles. I saw this as a way it was trying to move because it didn't like where it was. So, I would move it around a little. Now it wasn't doing this all the time, maybe once every 3 weeks. The place it's in now it has been very happy for about 4 mos.

Now for my problem. I have been following this thread for awhile, and this weekend I wanted to get a close inspection of it so I got it to close up most of the way. On one side of the skeleton is greyish covering that was not there about 2 mos ago. I touched and it seems to have the consistency of rubber. It's not touching any of the tissue, and there is no receeding, but what is this stuff. It really is just like a rubbery coating on one side of the skeleton.

Anyone got any ideas??

[FOX]

Big Daddy,

It sounds most likely to be a sponge of some sort. Unless the coral starts to recede in that area, or otherwise look to be irritated, I wouldn't worry about it. It's probably harmless.

All on this thread,

It seems to me, that since people used to be able to keep these corals for years, and now there's so many problems, there must be something to the shipping and/or collection problems that have been suggested. I have one that I got from kapu180 about 2-3 months ago. I'm not sure how long he had it, but it's done very well in my tank. A couple days ago, I came home and it was pretty much closed at a time of day when it's normally wide open. I started to worry that mine was going to bite the dust too, but the next day it was back to normal. It's still too early to tell if this one will do well in the long run, but it's doing very well so far.

FOX

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[cjdevito]

Greg:

Yup, same tank. But...the mandarin has only been a resident since 6/99, and the elegance has been around since 1/98.