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dugg
06/25/2005, 01:47 PM
Ok, here we go i am going to try to build the cement and foam tank again using the same proccess that wayne uses with flat 1/2 inch foam. This is foam from the craft store used for seat cushions. It is 1/2 inch and comes in large sheets.

First i measured and cut pieces to fit all panels in the tank except the bottom and front glass. I also cut one piece 1 inch wide to place at the bottom of the front glass. Everything was glued in useing MOD-PODGE craft glue. It is water based and non toxic. Coat all panels with a good thick layer of the glue. The foam soaks it up so don't be greedy with it. I used one full bottle on this 30 gallon. After glueing everthing down let the glue cure for 24 hrs.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0379.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0378.jpg
Using this foam the cement soaks into it almost completly through making a nice pourus backing for the cement walls.

dugg
06/25/2005, 01:58 PM
Here are wayne's directions. They are a little vague, but he had filled in the details to me, and i will try and make it more clear and explain as i go along.

http://waynesallee.com/makereefcementtank.htm

dugg
06/26/2005, 09:55 AM
The floor got poured in this morning. It is Portland cement poured about 1/2 inch thick. It is poured on top of a sheat of 10mil plastic sheeting. This needs to harden for 24 hrs before starting on the walls.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0395.jpg

Russ Braaten
06/26/2005, 03:37 PM
Is the foam there just to keep the glass from breaking? Protecting the glass from the cement

dugg
06/26/2005, 06:55 PM
The foam is there to protect the glass. It. gives the cement room to expand and contract as you build it up. Without the foam, the glass would break as the cement dries. When it is finished, it could be cut into sections and removed if you wanted it out. The glue will actually release and dissolve when it is filled with water. Wayne actually has the center back section taken out of his tank to allow people walking by his store to see in the tank.

luvabunny
06/27/2005, 09:04 AM
OK Doug, I'm not following here real well.
Why would you want to take a perfectly good glass tank and cement it? Are you making an actual cement tank and using the glass as a prop, or are you simply adding to the aesthetics of the glass tank, and using the concrete to form ledges and shelves, etc? If that's the purpose, why don't you just use that spray on sealer stuff? It is form-able, and I have heard people say it grows coralling fairly well.
Also, I'm not sure I follow how you are going to remove the foam and keep the concrete on your glass, and doesn't adding that much concrete make your tank so heavy it's unliftable? I would think that would make ever moving it impossible.
Sorry for all the questions, but I don't visualize real well, or really understand why you would do it in the first place. Keep those pics coming, maybe I'll figure it out.

dugg
06/27/2005, 12:24 PM
The foam stays in the tank. It becomes part of the cement. The cement is for aesthetics basicly. It is for building caves and ledges. The reason for cement instead of a spray on sealer is that portland cement is pure limestone which is what reefs are made of thus giving the corals a natural base to grow on. It will be heavy but hopefully not unliftable, since it is only 30 gallons. Mostly i am doing it due to bordom lol, and i love the tank that Wayne has built like this. It looks like a natural cliff in a reef, and it allows you to place a lot more corals in the reef since you are able to use the walls and still use some rock in the middle also, without having so much rock stacked up that you get dead spots in you circulation.
When it is finished there will be no sign of any equipment at all. Even the returns are concealed in the cement, giving the tank a natural look.

luvabunny
06/27/2005, 01:48 PM
..........oh, OK.......
good luck with it! Doesn't it cut down on your actual gallons? Looks like it takes up alot of space. Not being able to see the plumbing tho would be a real benefit.

Have you considered just painting the sides and back glass, and adhering actual rocks to them? I've thought about trying this, especially in a tall tank where dead spots are a problem. Seahorses like to swim UP, and oftentimes the corals, especially the softies I'm so fond of, aren't real tall. This way you will still gain the bacterial benefit of actual rock in the tank, and raise the viewing area from just the bottom to anywhere in the tank. If you are picky about what rocks you use to glue, it shouldn't cut down on your water volume much either, and still give you plenty of shelves and caves.
Not that you shouldn't go on with what you are doing - just something I have given thought to once or twice. As I said, keep those pics coming. I can't wait to see what it looks like once it's finished.
=)

dugg
06/28/2005, 11:40 AM
I have the base wall in now, it was done in 3 coats to slowly stiffen the foam up. I forgot to take pics of coat 2 but after coat 3 it is now about 1/8 inch thick. Tomorrow i will start adding the texture to the walls. After seeing the rock travis has made i am going to try some oyster shell mixed in for the texturing. So far everything is working out good, hopefully it will keep going that way.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0397.jpg
Coat #1 was very light just to stiffen and seal the foam.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0398.jpg
Coat 2 covered but was still pourus and 3 completly covered to roughly 1/8 thickness all over.

dugg
06/28/2005, 06:45 PM
Here is the first bit of texture work. I am using crushed coral instead of oyster shell because it is more porous.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0404.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0401.jpg

These are the returns i have made with some plastic tubing and portland and coral mix. They will mount in each back bottom corner directing the water up and to the center.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0405.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0409.jpg
This is as close to plumbing as you will be able to see inside the tank when it is finished.

Schmit
06/28/2005, 07:51 PM
Dugg,

Nice meeting you today (the couple with the two wild kids running around). Thanks for the link. As you probably overheard when I was talking to Wayne we are new to this. We are going to take setting up the Reef Tank very slow. We have a lot to learn and want to (try) and do it right the first time.

We'll be watching (and following the steps) your progress.

dugg
06/28/2005, 09:05 PM
Hi Schmit, it was nice meeting you today also, and welcome to the hobby and the forum. If you take it slow and easy and do a lot of reading you will be addicted and Wayne will be able to buy that island he's been wanting in no time lol.
I noticed you were real interested in wayne's cement display tank. You should know before getting in too deep that you will have BIG BUCKS invested by the time you get to that level. The lighting alone on that set up will run you $600 to $1000. You will need 1 pound of live rock per gallon of water at $5 to $7 per pound, and that is just light and rock. There is still plumbing, pumps, skimmers, a sump, sand, and a stand to build or buy all before one piece of coral goes in the tank.
Not trying to scare you off or anything because this is a great hobby, but it can be expensive and you should be aware of that before you start.
Personally i wouldn't reccomend that you start out by jumping in with both feet and attempting to build a reef like that. You should start by setting up your tank with live rock and sand and keeping a few fish and maybe a few easier to keep corals that don't require the expensive lighting. If you talk to wayne and look at the plumbing on his display tank, you can set up a real good skimmer for cheap. Otherwise a skimmer can be quite expensive, but it is an absolutely nessessary piece of equipment for salt water.
You can find endless information and help on this site if you decide that you want to become poor and insane with the rest of us reef nuts. On the main page under beginners is a good place to start at, but you won't find a smarter, nicer, more helpfull bunch of people anywhere then here on the COMAS forum with us OKIES lol.

Travis L. Stevens
06/29/2005, 07:47 AM
You said it Doug. That was the perfect way to explain the hobby, and a nice little bump for "us southerners" :p

Schmit
06/29/2005, 10:22 AM
Dugg,

We've been wanting to do a salt tank for quite some time and know the cost of getting into it... that is why I'm putting off the purchase of my Lamborghini Gallardo until next year. :rolleyes:

I do want to end up with a Reef Tank like Wayne's (and hopefully if I partally fund his island he'll let me and the family holiday there) but do plan on starting off slow.

My current plan (unless it is not doable) is the following....

1 - Read, Post, Read, Ask Questions, then READ somemore.

2 - Set up a Ce-Ment Reef Tank (i.e. plumbing, pumps, skimmers, a sump, sand). Currrent time frame is probably 2 - 3 months for this... still have to design it (layout wise).

3 - Use existing lights (normal floresent tank lights) fill tank with salt water and get that right. (1 month ?)

4 - Add live rock and a few fishies. Let this perk and see if they survive. (1 month ?)

4 - Add simple (i.e. normal lighting) corals and see if they live.

If this works switch over to the required lighting for a real reef tank and start (again... slooooowly) adding live coral and kewler fishies.

dugg
06/29/2005, 12:39 PM
It's alive!!! Well it's finished. Just have to let it sit over night and then fill it with water and start the curing process. I also made some DIY rock so everything matches. The front glass is too dirty to get front photos right now and i don't want to take a razor to it until it is full of water to avoid any scratches.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0414.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0416.jpg

I sprayed it down with a water and RIT dye mixture for the finall dry time. The rocks were splattered with liquid RIT dye when they were made. I decided on making the rock instead of caves to avoid it being too heavy.

This acseterator stuff is unreal, it is going to be great for mounting corals. It sets up in 2 or 3 minutes, even under water and isn't messy at all.

dugg
06/29/2005, 12:53 PM
Sounds like a plan Schmit, except for the lamborghini. It may never come now lol. Like i said , not trying to scare you off or anything. I just see so many people get in to this hobby thinking they can do it on a budget, only to get frustrated and sell it all for pennies on the dollar. You can drop 2 or 3 thousand in a tank and it is only worth around $500 to sell if you are lucky. First thing i would tell you to purchase is a PH monitor so you can see how your reef is working hour by hour to understand how different things effect the water. Wayne sells a good one for $89 called a pin point PH monitor. Your PH tells a lot about how everything else is balanced, like alkalinity, oxygen levels, and a myriad of other things. If you are going to plumb your system like Wayne has his, get one of his skimmers, they work real good. I am setting one up with my new system. Good luck and see you in the soup line lol.

Travis L. Stevens
06/29/2005, 01:26 PM
I LOVE the shelves that you added in your tank. Care to tell us how that was accomplished? Was it a DIY rock that you just glued up there?

dugg
06/29/2005, 01:33 PM
The shelves were made using acseterator. It makes the cement harden in 3 minutes so you can form it and it is solid within minutes. It actually almost sets it too fast.
You use the acseterator to mix the cement instead of water. The cement starts getting warm after just a minute or two. That is when you know you better hurry and get it where you want it, because is almost flashes to being hard.

Travis L. Stevens
06/29/2005, 01:40 PM
where and what is the acseterator? Is it a type of chemical or is that the brand name? I see how it works, but Im confused on identifying it. If that makes sense

dugg
06/29/2005, 02:18 PM
Acseterator is a chemical that hardens cement really fast. It is a product that Wayne here at my LFS invented. I have no idea what is in it, but it is amazing. He originally made it for securing corals to rock. It will make cement harden and stay together even under water.
I have used baking soda to harden cement before also, but this is something else completely. Wayne sells it from his store. You can order it from him at http://waynespets.com/ It comes in an 8 oz bottle for $8.61 a bottle.
It makes securing corals to your rock simple and it looks natural since it is just portland cement. Also since portland cement is limestone, coraline algae grows on it almost immediately.

Travis L. Stevens
06/29/2005, 02:21 PM
Ah, that helps a ton. Thanks for the clarification

Schmit
06/29/2005, 07:02 PM
Dugg,

Looks good. Got a question though. The RIT dye... added to give color to the Ce-Ment? Will this last as a "surface" treatment? Couldn't it be added with the final portland layer?

Next time you see Wayne tell him I'll be in probably next week with a myraid of stupid questions. Mostly about building the tank and related equipment for now.

Oh and tell him I'm totally confused now that first 4 chapters of the book I got from him. ;)

dugg
06/29/2005, 07:30 PM
Not sure how the dye is going to work out yet. When i mix it in the cement it just disappears. If i put it in the water used to mix it, it overwhelmes it and becomes solid dark like those navy blue returns in the corners. I was just wanting some accents so i sprayed it on the wet cement after i applied it. It looks like it is gonna highlight the texture like i am wanting. We'll see?

dugg
06/30/2005, 02:13 PM
Well, the curing process has begun. I filled the tank with water today after running a few hundred gallons through it to rinse off the excess rit dye. I put one package of dry active yeast and 1/2 cup of sugar in to get the process started. It should take about a week to cure the cement out before i can set up the system. Possibly a little more because i made rock out of the rest of my cement and crushed coral, so there is 94 lbs of cement and 40lbs of crushed coral curing in a 30 gallon tank. It is just a little bit full lol. The water is too cloudy to get any pictures right now, but if it clears up before it is done curing i will post some pictures. If not i guess you will all have to wait lol. Trust me it looks reallllllllllly nice, and is flowing great.

_Sooner_2
06/30/2005, 08:48 PM
Post a pic of Wayne's skimmers after you get one. Are they a brand name or does he make them?

Can't wait to see the pics after the tank clears.

dugg
06/30/2005, 10:22 PM
Wayne makes them, you could build your own for 10 bucks probably. It hooks in to the downpipe from your overflow. I have one for this tank. Wayne's skimmer makes 1/2 gallon of thick black skimmate every 2 weeks. He has his on a 140 gallon with 1000 gph measered flow at the return in the tank. I am setting one up on a 30 gallon with a cap1800 which i figure is pumping around 400gph, not sure what it's rated at. So we will see how good it is without the 1000gph. Mine is hooked up in the test sytem now and when it first got filled this morning when all the dye was leaking out, it was actually skimming fresh water!!!! It took about a quart of purple slime out before it stopped skimming, in case you never tried before, freshwater don't skim, it's not dense enough to foam up. I was shocked to see it pumping out skim from fresh water, so i am very hopefull that it is going to work just as good for me as it does for Wayne :D The inlet and the exit tubes are 2inch pvc.http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077skimmer.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077skimmer_in_sump.jpg

Just make a box with 2 holes in the top , with the exit end of the box being about 2 inches shorter then the rest of the panels to let the water flow out. You can order one from Wayne for $29.95 or i can measure mine out for you if it works out.

dugg
06/30/2005, 10:35 PM
My opinion of why it works so good, is that all of the air has to exit through that tube so when the skimmate reaches near the tube it is vacumed off of the top of the foam instead of riding around until it falls over the side like a regular skimmer does. When the top of the foam reaches the end of the tube it races to the other end from the vacume created by the air release. You control how much it skims by how far the hose is stuck in it. It also skims evey last ounce of your water every time it passes through the sump instead of a pump sitting in the sump getting random intake.

Travis L. Stevens
07/01/2005, 07:19 AM
I remember seeing a thread with that type of skimmer a while back. I wonder if it will work on smaller tanks.

dugg
07/01/2005, 10:53 AM
Here is a picture of my skimmer. The purple water is rit dye :D . The skimmer is producing skim in fresh water with the tank being supplied by a powerhead about half of the flow of the pump that will be on it when it is set up. There is no air being added, all of the air is produced by the dropping water from the overflow.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0431.jpg
Here are a few pics of the tank, still taken from the top though. I can't get a good picture from the front because the tank has no lighting and the sun glares on the glass.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0437.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0438.jpg
the dark blue or black looking places in the back corners are the returns. All of the water returns from the bottom pointing up and to the middle. Three returns on each side.

Travis L. Stevens
07/01/2005, 11:02 AM
That is just too awesome Doug. Keep up the good work. You might have inspired me to do something similar with my tank at work. So how does the tank smell? Like freshly baked bread? ;)

dugg
07/01/2005, 11:48 AM
Doesn't have a smell, but i have been having a time getting this dye out. I have done several water changes trying to get the dye out of the system, so it hasn't had time to activate the yeast yet. The dye really makes the tank look nice but it is proving to be almost not worth it. Also i need to go talk to Wayne and see if i am supposed to be cirrculating the water or just letting it sit stagnant. Right now i am running the system with a powerhead (maxi-jet 1250) pumping the water about 4 feet high then to the bottom of the tank so i'm sure it's not much in GPH, but it is moving.

You could really make a nice piece out of a small tank like you said you are putting in your office. You won't even need the acseterator for that small of stuff, just a drier mix on the cement and several layers. I also used a few sheets of needle point backing to form some of the ledge work. The cement builds up on that stuff real nice. Just coat it on both side and let it sit over night then stick it in place and build it up to the shape you want. Needle point backing is the plastic sheet granma uses to do needle point pictures on lol. You can buy it at wal-mart or any craft store for .75 a sheet.

Also i left a gap all the way around the floor on mine because i plan to use sand anyway, but looking at the cemant floor now, i wish i had left the front foam stip out and poured the floor to meet the bottom tank edging with only the plastic between it and the glass. It would make an awsome barebottom tank.

dugg
07/01/2005, 10:27 PM
This skimmer is amazing. I have had a hard time getting the dye out of the water, so today i went ahead and salted the water so the skimmer could do it's job. With not more that 250 gph of flow this thing has almost cleared the water of dye completely. It is going crazy on this stuff. There is close to 2 gallons of dark red water in the skim bucket already. Dark enough it looks re usable. I do have it set to catch the skim fairly early since i am trying to scrubb the water really well. I can't wait to see how it works with the regular pump running the system instead of a powerhead. I also can't wait to unplug the 2 powerheads and one luft air pump that will no longer be needed due to the design of this skimmer.

WayneSallee
07/03/2005, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by dugg
Doesn't have a smell, but i have been having a time getting this dye out. I have done several water changes trying to get the dye out of the system, so it hasn't had time to activate the yeast yet. The dye really makes the tank look nice but it is proving to be almost not worth it. Also i need to go talk to Wayne and see if i am supposed to be cirrculating the water or just letting it sit stagnant. Right now i am running the system with a powerhead (maxi-jet 1250) pumping the water about 4 feet high then to the bottom of the tank so i'm sure it's not much in GPH, but it is moving.



Yes, run the pump so that it circulates over the cement. (need to add that to my instructions)

I don't get around here verry often so If someone asks me a question and I don't answer, it's because I haven't seen the question, being so bussy with the shop, and all.

Wayne Sallee

dugg
07/03/2005, 07:33 PM
I spent the day today building a stand and hood so i'm ready when the cement cures. Here are a few pics of the stand. Still have lots of sanding and finishing to do but it is built.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0446.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0445.jpg
This was $188 total cost including hardware, so i am in this around $350 including tank, stand, plumbing, and hardware,
I had to build the stand a little big due to having the same size sump and tank, and also for a little storage space for the skimmer overflow.

dugg
07/06/2005, 09:45 AM
It's almost done. The tank is almost cured, and the cabinet is as finished as the pins in my shoulders will finish it. The cabinet is made with furniture grade plywood and poplar facings. It is stained with a mix of 2/3 cherry and 1/3 brazilian rosewood stains, with 3 coats of tung oil. It's really needs a light sanding and 1 more coat but my pins say NO, so i'm calling it done. I can always sand and add another coat later when i heal lol.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0450.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0447.jpg
I am hoping to set this thing up for fish tomorrow night, if not it may be Monday or so before i can do it, due to my schedual this weekend.

dugg
07/06/2005, 09:47 PM
It's done!!!! It is all finished curing and set up now, running 8.23 ph. I just kind of piled the rock in tonight, until it is all cleared up tomorrow and i have a litlle more energy. I ended up miss measuring the base trim just a little :confused: , so i had to pull it. I will repair it next week. Other then that everything worked out perfect. Here are a few cloudy pics. Keep in mind that the rock is just thrown in, and there is actually more rock in there then what will be staying. Everything in the tank except the rocks that have corals on them are cement. I will get some better pictures after the rock is all set up and the water clears.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0464.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0458.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0459.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0463.jpg

chris4693
07/06/2005, 10:15 PM
I have to be honest I was really skeptical about how your cement tank would turn out, but I have to say I am really impressed. This is something I haven't ever seen, unless it is a large aquarium like at the Mirage in Vegas. The possibilities would be endless.

Very nice work, keep on keeping us posted on how it is working out.

Schmit
07/07/2005, 06:00 AM
Dugg.

Looks great. Bad news on my front. Found out yesterday that my tank is Tempored so I can't drill for overflow/returns.

Going to have to rethink my plans on a live reef tank. Possably just set up a simple salt tank to "get my feet wet" while I gather more experience then get another tank and set up a live reef.

Lago
07/07/2005, 06:42 AM
Hi All...Been following this thread although I'm a far cry from OK(NJ). It's an amazing project that looks awesome!

I'm actually just posting for Schmit ... though most larger tanks are tempered on the bottom, the back glass is usually not. I'm not sure if you checked it out but that's certainly an option.

--JJ

Travis L. Stevens
07/07/2005, 07:45 AM
Why not see if there is someone that will trade you for a replacement tank. Just a thought

dugg
07/07/2005, 09:44 AM
hEY Schmit, how about you put the lamborgini purchase off an extra month, and buy a 140 gallon tank like Wayne has set up, and use your 75 for a sump ????? Or if you want i could maybe help you drill the one you have and do the holes in the back. I already have the bits you need to drill with, and i have a few spare minutes to spend, seeing as i don't believe in work. It's hard on you lol.

dugg
07/07/2005, 02:53 PM
Just realized i forgot a sump picture.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0474.jpg

dugg
07/07/2005, 06:11 PM
I have monitored the PH now for 24 hrs and all is good. It was at 8.23 when i set it up, dropped to 8.06 over night and is now at 8.25, so the cement has had no effect at all on the PH. The initial PH test before curing in the cement tank was 8.95 and dropped about .05 to .10 each day while in the curring process. Total curing time was only 7 days, and consisted of atleast 10 water changes, which was due to the RIT dye that i used. The dye looks really good but was a total pain in the *%#.

OscarBeast
07/07/2005, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Schmit
Dugg.

Looks great. Bad news on my front. Found out yesterday that my tank is Tempored so I can't drill for overflow/returns.

Going to have to rethink my plans on a live reef tank. Possably just set up a simple salt tank to "get my feet wet" while I gather more experience then get another tank and set up a live reef.

How about going sumpless (a sump not necessary for a reef tank)? Or U-Tube type siphon overflows?

Travis L. Stevens
07/08/2005, 07:31 AM
Mine should be done curing soon, but Im waiting for the noodles to dissolve. I have a few pieces that didn't crumble away. Any recommendations on how to speed up the process?

dugg
07/08/2005, 10:41 AM
If you mean the rocks curing, just yaest and sugar (1pkg dry yeast, 1/2 cup sugar. and a powerhead. If you mean the noodles, try boiling the rocks to cook them out. (DON"T USE VINIGAR) it will disolve the cement. I just say that because i saw someone mention using vinigar the other day. Vinigar is and acid. You can also buble CO2 into the water or drop some dry ice in, which will produce co2.
If you are using a regular ph test kit, measure mid to late day only as the PH rises normally thoughout the day. It is best to use a ph monitor. When the mid day PH is 8.3 or below, they are ready. I scrubbed mine with a brush and rinsed them 3 or 4 times before putting them in the tank.

OscarBeast
07/08/2005, 11:33 AM
I see nothing wrong with using a mild vinegar solution. IIRC, CO2 + water = carbonic acid. :) Using a mild acid is the point. There is a lot of free lime in the concrete you are using. Lime is made from limestone by heating it and forcing it to release the CO2.

Cement isn't calcium carbonate (limestone), or at least it isn't supposed to be. If environmental damage converts the lime into calcium carbonate, it rusts out the metal reinforcement, which is a bad thing in buildings and bridges. In your case however, you want to convert that free lime (at least on the outer layers) into calcium carbonate using a weak acid, such as carbonic acid. :) That way it doesn't hop up your pH.

Too much CO2 will "dissolve" your cement as well. Think about how calcium reactors work and why you have to have a tank of CO2 and where that media disappears to... :)

dugg
07/10/2005, 03:08 PM
Here is a pretty decent picture of the finished tank. It has a few months of growing to do before it's filled in but i am quite happy with the results. I just need a better camera now so i can get some good pictures that do it justice.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0495.jpg

Schmit
07/10/2005, 06:53 PM
Dugg (and everyone)

Thanks for the responses. Nope, I found Two stickers on the bottom of the tank and the first thing I did was call Wayne. The one that said "Tempored Glass" was not the big one as I knew from talking to you and Wayne that the bottom could be the only side Tempored. It was the other one that Wayne was familure with and when I discribed it to him he knew the make of tank and said that if the Tempored Glass sticker had also included "Bottom" it would have been fine. Unfortunitly, it says Tempored Glass (only) which means then entire thing is Tempored.

Oh well. I also don't want any U Tubes coming over the back of the take... estetics (sp?) don't ya know.

But Dugg has kind of come up with what our plans are now. Start off with a simple 75 gal Salt Tank with live rock and a few fisheys... eventually add some small simple easy corals.

After we get more experienced get a 120 gal tank, set it up for Reef with all kinds of kewl things and use the 75 as the sump.

I have to remember... baby steps... BABY STEPS. :rollface:

Bishop
07/11/2005, 12:48 AM
dugg: indeed you do have to put the RIT dye in the water, and you have to do it very sparringly...

Travis L. Stevens
07/11/2005, 07:41 AM
After this weekend I think I will try to boil the noodles out to save as many rocks as I can. I would hate to loose about 50 lbs. of rock. Any other suggestions on eating away at the pasta?

dugg
07/11/2005, 08:38 AM
Any other suggestions on eating away at the pasta?
A fork and some good pasta sauce, maybe a little parmasian.

There may be some kind of bug like meal worms that would clean it up. That is what they do at Skulls unlimited up on south shields to clean skeletons.

Travis L. Stevens
07/11/2005, 09:03 AM
Well, it would have to be a hardy aquatic species since I have the rocks still sitting in the tub soaking.

chris4693
07/11/2005, 03:02 PM
Dugg, Skulls Unlimited isn't next the to water garden place anymore. In fact It has been a few years, not sure if they are even still in business. But anyway wen't by there years ago and picked up some of those worms, it was a very interesting place.

dugg
07/11/2005, 03:43 PM
He must have just moved to a bigger location because that guy was making a fortune selling that stuff to evryone from colleges to movie prop companies.

Actually Travis i doubt that the pasta will hurt anything anyway. It should be totally inert. If anything the fish will probably eat it all. Just clean it out the best you can and try one rock to see.

lunkerbunker
07/11/2005, 04:34 PM
dugg,

how's everything. the tank looks great!!! i just spoke with wayne today and was planning to order 1 of his skimmers. can you please give me an update on how the skimmers working for you and also does the skimmer produce lots of micro bubbles? please lmk

thanks

dugg
07/11/2005, 05:46 PM
I started a new thread on the skimmer update.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=628296
It is working great and producing skimmate the same on my small system as it is on wayne's 140gallon system.

masterswimmer
07/11/2005, 07:58 PM
dugg, I've read your entire thread. You've created an inspirational tank my friend. Thank you. Hope you don't mind if I coat tail on some of your ideas.

Just a few questions. I know you said you put all of your returns on the bottom. What do you do in a power outage? Won't your whole tank drain?

Doesn't the salt water eat away at the cement? I was always told not to salt a concrete walkway. The fact that this is cement, does that react differently to salt than concrete does?

Did you spread the cement on one wall at a time? If you did it all at once, how did you get it to stay on without falling off?

If you were to do it over, would you cement the bottom? What did you do with the sides of the tank that meet the front glass? How did you hide the exposed ends of the foam? Did you just cut it a little short and just cement the edge?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm considering this on my 16 gallon bow. And I'd like to learn from your experience. Just beautiful. Looks sooo natural.

Thanks again,
Russ

masterswimmer
07/11/2005, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Schmit
3 - Use existing lights (normal floresent tank lights) fill tank with salt water and get that right. (1 month ?)

4 - Add live rock and a few fishies. Let this perk and see if they survive. (1 month ?)

4 - Add simple (i.e. normal lighting) corals and see if they live.





Schmit, you've got a bit of your process a little skewed. You state in step 3 that you want to fill the tank with saltwater and let it go for a month.

Then you want to add LR and a few fish (first step 4).

You should be adding the LR when you fill with saltwater to a salinity of 1.026. This will give the LR a chance to do two things. First it will cure the LR (allow die-off of any dying and decaying organisms). Second those dying and decaying organisms will begin the cycle of your tank.

If you add fish at the same time you add your LR, you are likely to stress and kill those fish. After adding LR, you should experience a spike in ammonia (lethal to fish at high levels). If you don't have fish in there, no problem. The ammonia will facilitate the growth of the bacteria that breaks down the ammonia to nitrites. Then the next phase of the cycle begins, the bacteria grows that breaks the nitrites down to nitrates.

Once you test your tank and your ammonia spiked and goes down to zero, then your nitrites spike and return to zero, then your nitrates spike and return to < 10 then you can add fish. Your cycle will have been completed.

Dugg, sorry to have hijacked your thread. I just wanted to clarify some things for your buddy Schmit.

Good luck,
Russ

dugg
07/11/2005, 09:56 PM
#1 I drilled release holes at the top of each return pipe to break the syphon in the event the electric goes out.
#2 The salt has no effect on the cement, Wayne's tank has been set up for quite a while and shows no sign of deterioration.
#The cement goes on in layers , 3 light layers a day apart to stiffen everything and then you just kind of slop it in there and build it up in layers.
#4 The front edges of the foam are exposed at first but will cover with coraline very fast and dissapear in just a few weeks. Mine are purple from the dye i used and don't show at all.
#5 If i did it again (I WILL DEFFINATLY MAKE ANOTHER ONE). Yes the floor not only holds everything together in one piece, but is also a very natural looking bottom in areas with no sand or if you were going to run bare bottom it would look awsome. When i do another one, i will leave out the front strip of foam and leave only the plastic between the cement and the glass in the front, and pour it level with the trim so i can run it bare bottom.
#6 the foam goes all the way to the front glass, it will shrink back just a little from the cement drying but don't worry about it, it will be undetectable in a few weeks.

Thank you for the compliments, I fell in love with Wayne's tank the first time i saw it and had to build one for myself. When it gets grown in, it will look like a natural reef instead of a glass box full of rocks and coral. I will build another one that is bigger down the road. Actually i can't seee ever putting another tank up without taking the time to cement it. I give all the credit for this tank to Wayne Sallee, owner of Wayne's Pets in Eustis Florida. He invented the process, i just followed his directions. If you take a good look at my set up you will see that the entire system is running on one cap1800 pump, with no powerheads, air pumps or anything else, this includes the skimmer, which is all Wayne's creation. Simplistic perfection i think, and so far my fish a corals seem to agree

dugg
07/11/2005, 10:00 PM
By the way, my tank temp has dropped from 82* to 79* since removing all of the extra powerheads.

masterswimmer
07/12/2005, 12:52 AM
dugg, very very cool. Thanks for taking the time to go through my Q's point by point.

Do you think a 16 gallon is too small for a design like this? Or would the foam and cement take up too much room? BTW, my 16 does not have an overflow, I'd have to design and build one into it.

Thanks again, more pix!!

Russ

dugg
07/12/2005, 01:06 AM
The cement takes up about 3/4 inch wall and floor space including the foam. I think a small nano would be cool and you could really be creative not having to worry about weight issues. There is a thread here somewhere about drilling and creating an external overflow by siliconing a box on the back and using a diamond dremel to cut a row of slots in the back glass for an overflow. that would be easy to do and save a lot of room. Just bring the foam right up to the bottom edge and then up both sides of the row of holes. You could even build a ledge around it to control the waterlevel better and the corals in Wayne's tank thrive right at the ledge he has at his overflow.

Schmit
07/12/2005, 08:30 AM
Thanks MS!!

See that is why I'm here... so y'all can keep this Dumb Jarhead in line. Ya know Marines have a knack for breaking things. ;)

masterswimmer
07/12/2005, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Schmit
Thanks MS!!

See that is why I'm here... so y'all can keep this Dumb Jarhead in line. Ya know Marines have a knack for breaking things. ;)

:thumbsup:

YW.....We've all made mistakes. This is a great place to try to help others (if they're open to it) avoid the mistakes others have made before. And, it can help save a $hitload of money. Maybe get that Lamborghini a month or two sooner! ;)

Russ

RamManOK
07/12/2005, 01:07 PM
Come on Schmit.......don't be so hard on yourself and us other jarheads :D.....hahaha

Schmit
07/12/2005, 01:08 PM
RamManOK...

Hey... as a Marine you KNOW we are taught to break (destroy) things! :D

Dugg (or anyone)

Here is a question for y'all.

Now, I know I have to start with live rock.

Could I not construct a cement "cave" of sorts (think cement tank building) as a center piece for my future tank. Then let it grow into a live rock somehow? (isn't live rock only rock with things growing on it's surfice?) (put into a tank with live rock and let it mature)

If possible, wouldn't this work as live rock but for less poundage? (per coverabe area) (i.e. X% of live rock weight is rock with the live stuff only existing on the outer surface). Could not this method cut the weight of the live rock while still providing the same "live" area?

What I'm thinking of is making a "cave" by drapping fabric over a bowl or something... getting it stiff and then building additional layers on top of it to provided a "surface". The cave would be considerably thinner then making it by stacking rocks on top of each other but provided the same surface area for the live portion of it.

dugg
07/12/2005, 01:26 PM
The cement will not be as good as live rock. While it will be live after some time, it is not near as porous as real live rock. You will still need to buy live rock for your sump for biological filtration. 1 to 1 1/2 lbs per gallon. Buy mostly dead base rock and a few good pieces of live rock to seed the tank with. Wayne's dead rock is $1.69 per lb. live rock is $6.49 per lb. He has a real nice live rock in the display sump right now that has clove polyps all over it. That one piece and the rest base rock should be a real nice start for you. It looks like it weighs around 20 lbs. roughly.

While the cement does have some biological quality to it, don't even consider it in as live rock at all, just a bonus.

dcoufal
07/12/2005, 01:27 PM
Fabric? That may not be the best of ideas.... How about several layers of wedding veil?

Yes, many people use a large % of base rock to live rock and over time the base rock becomes live rock. It's not so much the "stuff on the surface" as the "stuff in the pores" of the rock -- the bacteria is what you really want. But, you need to use nice, porous, safe base rock. I've been *very* happy with the base rock I bought from reeferrocks.com.

Dwain

Schmit
07/12/2005, 06:50 PM
That is what I thought but wanted comformation (i.e. stuff in the "surface" pores. Oh well, I'm still going to build a small cave outa cement for the fishies.

dugg
07/21/2005, 08:05 PM
Just posting a few updated pictures now that everything is in it's place. I also got a few frags of Montipora digitata from Wayne today and mounted it to the walls and rocks using his acseterator and portland cement. Now that is how to mount a coral. It took seconds to mount and blends right into the rock. The cement had almost no effect on the ph at all. It maybe raised the ph by .01 if that. The cement had no effect on the corals at all either. A few of my green mushrooms closed for about 3 minutes, then opened right back up.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0548.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0545.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0522.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0542.jpg

fletch33
08/04/2005, 12:09 AM
Holy cow......
Now I think I may have to look into the plywood tank setup with this as a liner? This would hold the water in would it not? If on coat 2 you add a sealer to it then add the third layer and dye it..

May be worth a shot.

Semper Fi brothers, glad to see others on here!

dugg
08/04/2005, 09:30 PM
No the cement wouldn't hald the water. You would need to build the wood tank, seal it with a marine epoxy and water test it, then do the cement treatment to it. I would still use the foam, even with a wood tank, and put the plastic liner under the cement floor, on top of the epoxy. Cement is very porous. My grampa built cement inground swimming pools, and until they coat a pool with plaster, the water runs right through it.

Here is a page with a few links to some DIY plywood tanks i have looked at. Let me know how it turns out for you. I have always wanted to try this too.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_list.php

Whitten
08/05/2005, 08:42 AM
Great site Dugg thanks for the link.

speakeraddict
08/05/2005, 08:44 AM
Dugg,

I am building a 245 gallon L tank out of plywood. I have a thread about it on the Albama reefers forum on RC.

speakeraddict

fletch33
08/05/2005, 11:37 AM
not in progress yet. Still debating the fact that 140 is alot of water and would drill every hole with a drill press, mine is currently inop.
But maybe during the winter I will try this out.

Thanks

Travis L. Stevens
07/12/2006, 11:08 AM
Hey Dogg! It's been almost a year since we've had an update. I think you are due for some pictures :D

dugg
07/12/2006, 03:49 PM
Things are starting to come around. It has been one disaster after another so far for my tank. First i had the flood that smoked the MH ballast, then a bad pump that heated the water to 89*, then the ph monitor problem and the snow storm, then just recently another pump gone bad with another heat problem. I have recently changed to a smaller return pump, and added a few powerheads to the display for current. Things are looking up now, but i have lost a lot of my stock over all of the disasters. Hopefully everything will come around over the next month or so, and i will post some new pics. As far as the cement goes, everything has worked out great. No nitrate issues with the foam, and the polyps and coraline are starting to take off if i can just go a while without having something blow up.

MyMonkey
07/12/2006, 04:23 PM
Dugg is one of my heroes. Have not seen this in a while. Very nice. I certainly wish you were in town to assist in building my stand. :)

dugg
07/12/2006, 06:15 PM
I wish i was too lol. I would gladly build everyone a stand rather then play Mr. Mom lol.

Youngsilver
07/12/2006, 09:16 PM
Inspired by you,I am going to be doing this with my 55when i get back from dallas, since stacking rock in a 55 so impossible.

dugg
07/12/2006, 11:22 PM
Well thanks, if i were doing another one, here is what i would do different. 1st. I would eithier build an external overflow, by cutting the top 1/2 off of the back glass and build an overflow on the back of the tank to take it to the sump. That will open a ton of usable space in the tank. 2nd. I wouldn't place my returns in the bottom of the tank. I would drill in 4 returns across the back and cover the pipes in cement work, enclosing them into the rocks. 3rd. after pouring in the floor, i would try and build the rockwork, and caves using layers of the foam used on the walls and glue, then cover the entire thing in 1/4 inch of the cement, a layer at a time, not using the accetorator. It worked good but was expensive for what it did. The foam will be fine staying inside the rock. It will act the same as a very pourus liverock wall. The foam is individual bubbles, so large debris can't go past the surface, only the microscopic stuff can go through it, plus the entire surface is covered in cement. Ant caves would need to be pre coated on the underside before cementing them into the structure. I also wish i had used bigger bulkheads for my overflow. The 3/4 inch ones just don't flow much. I have got the outside part of an external overflow hanging on the back, with the U- tube going into my internal overflow to make up for it.

I don't think i will ever put up another tank, no matter what size it is, without doing the cement treatment to it.

herpchat
07/13/2006, 09:52 AM
You know this is beyond cool. Have you ever thought about using plastic egg crate as a base to build upon?

You could make all sorts of ledges and such, attach the foam then concrete it. Just a thought.

Less then 40 posts away from using my avitar (Yeha!)

dugg
07/13/2006, 10:06 AM
I had thought about that, but i was told that the cement will break the glass as it cures if it is applied to the glass instead of the foam. The egg crate would let too much cement contact the glass. You could use the egg crate for building ledges after the walls and floor were done though. I used needle point backing in mine. It forms curves and bends real nice.

Go to the main forum page and give a bump to 39 old post lol.

dugg
07/30/2006, 03:09 PM
Ok Travis, i finally got some pics taken after some good cleaning :D . The rock that isn't covered in coraline was just added yesterday. It was rock that i had in my sump. I got tired of the open sand bed look. Everything that has survived the many pittfalls i have had over the last year with pumps burning up, and the ballast getting smoked in the flood and poisoning the tank, is starting to come around and actually grow instead of repairing damage. The red brain on the rocks had released from his skeleton all of the way around, but has somehow survived, and is growing a new rim of skeleton on top of the old one. None of my sps made it through the problems. It seems they don't like ballast smoke, or 86*+ temps. I finally broke down and added some powerheads to the tank a month or two ago. My overflow won't handle enough flow to get a decent current going, so i added 1 sieo, and a small 200gph ph in each corner. The small PH is buried in rocks. you can only see the output nozzle on it.

As you can see the coraline is doing real good, and the walls have lots of critters living on them. Hundreds of tiny red featherdusters, some GSP, and various polyps and mushrooms have been growing on the walls. I would say the best thing about the cement walls other than looks, has turned out to be the pod feast that it provides for my fish.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/dugg/100_1151.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/dugg/100_1152.jpg

MyMonkey
07/30/2006, 07:25 PM
Very nice Dugg. The brain has great color. Your clams held up well I see. Nice work.

chastjw
12/15/2006, 05:14 PM
anything new? New pics?

dugg
12/15/2006, 09:08 PM
Here is the most recent pics i have. I had a pretty long stretch of bad luck recently with heat and PH issues.Every since the kiddo put whatever that was in the sump, the tank has been acting really crazy. It has been on a cycle of about once every 5 to 6 days clouding up for 2 days and then back to crystal clear again. At first i was going crazy trying to figure it out and doing water changes ect. to fix it when it clouded up. Now i have decided to stop fighting it and just let whatever it is run the coarse. Most everything is doing fine. I have lost a few of the sps frags i bought from Paul a few months back. Two of the monti caps, the staghorn, and the acro nana have retired on me. All of the losses were really fast. Fine at lights out and all but gone the next morning. I still have all of the zoas, the porites, hydrophora, and the monti digi are all doing fine and growing well. The monti caps that are left have already started speading on to the cement walls, and the hydrophora has about 7 new branches starting to grow real nice. I attribute the losses to the unstable temp problems before and directly after i added the chiller, and the PH issues i was having. The PH is now staying very stable even during the cloudy days that it is having. I have tested everything multiple times during the clouding events, and it all comes out perfect. Prater got to see this last week when he was here. It was cloudy the day he dropped his trailer off, and crystal clear 2 days later when he returned for the trailer. The lights are off now, but i will get a new pic tomorrow if i get a minute. The rocks in the last pics that were fresh white rocks are now solid coraline. I also had an issue with my cheato recently that i think may have been the clouding problem. All of my cheato turned white like it was covered in calcium precipitation. I removed all of the cheato last week except one small piece that was in my FO tank that i placed in the sump, so we will see. I never heard of cheato crashing before, but the last clouding event was triggered by stirring the cheato around in the sump. I think it was the drastic PH issues that caused it all personally. It was swings from 8.4 daytime to 7.1 at night, so i figured that was drastic enough to have triggered all of the issues.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/dugg/100_1251.jpg

douggiestyle
12/28/2006, 04:28 PM
i caught this as a link in the diy forum.

if your calcium and alk are not in ballance then the calcium can preciptate causing a cloud. do a bit of research. or post the problem in the chemistry forum. its been a while since ive had the problem, so im a bit lacking in correct verbage. so ask randy in the chemistry forum.

slandis3
01/05/2007, 12:57 AM
What are the ingreatents (sp)? for making the live rock? Im in the process of building a 500+ gallon tank.

matthewnokc
01/06/2007, 07:34 PM
this might be a good idea to do to my scratched 58 gallon

it really turned out well!

matthewnokc
01/06/2007, 07:38 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7735101#post7735101 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by herpchat
You know this is beyond cool. Have you ever thought about using plastic egg crate as a base to build upon?

You could make all sorts of ledges and such, attach the foam then concrete it. Just a thought.

Less then 40 posts away from using my avitar (Yeha!)

LETS NOT FORGET SPRAY FOAM!!! I love this cement idea

it can be a great thing to do to old tank that you have laying

around

dugg
01/07/2007, 09:11 AM
I tried the spray foam out first, it was a huge failure. The foam shrinks and tried to float even with a huge rock imbedded in it. I plan to try egg crate for my next tank instead of the foam. Using the egg crate, the panels will have to be started outside of the tank, then assembled inside the tank and cemented together. You can't get the wet cement on the glass, or it will break the glass as it drys.

tankslave
01/08/2007, 12:00 AM
It shouldnt shrink. I dont know how much foam you used. This one didnt have any buoyancy issues:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m81/tankslave/DSC00318.jpg

How will wet cement break glass as it drys?

tankslave
01/08/2007, 12:06 AM
double post sorry

dugg
01/08/2007, 07:37 AM
My foam looked really nice like that until i added water lol.

The cement contracts as it dries, plus puts out a lot of heat. A small spot won't hurt, but covering a whole panel of glass you have a real good chance of breaking .

tankslave
01/10/2007, 03:05 PM
hmmm. Guess I never laid that much concrete before... :P

bstoner
02/08/2007, 08:01 AM
Very nice project.

I am planning on doing a similar style tank and while researching DIY rock I came across this. I think I might give it a try and I like the idea of making an external overflow to save room.

How did you mount the power heads to the rockwork?

olemos
02/08/2007, 08:21 AM
Nice job.
Dugg, do you have a link to RIT dye?

Travis L. Stevens
02/08/2007, 08:38 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9188545#post9188545 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by olemos
Nice job.
Dugg, do you have a link to RIT dye?

You should be able to find RIT Dye in your local supermarket, whether it is WalMart or a local chain. It's usually found in the laundry aisle.

dugg
02/08/2007, 08:13 PM
I wouldn't use the dye if doing it again. It took forever to bleed out, and almost none stayed in the cement.

Dtking
02/09/2007, 01:03 AM
I havent really followed this thread much, but have read alot tonight, this is just outstanding!... I just wanted to say congrats and sorry about your recent luck with this, but I think this is a masterpiece! we just need to take baby steps and this in my opinion is an overwelming tank! Think if it was a 300 gal tank that you did like this?>!?! heheh is this in your near future!??

-Dustin

Dyceskynes
02/09/2007, 09:06 AM
I stared foaming mine last night and hope to get the bottom cemented in tonight. I have no pictures save for the CAD diagram I am doing. I will try to get some tonight.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=984848

GuySmilie
02/27/2007, 04:58 PM
Any pix or updates on your foaming??
Guy

Insane Reefer
07/31/2007, 11:46 PM
Wow, that is cool looking. Nice Job :)

reefing102
09/18/2007, 02:40 PM
very nice any updates

dugg
09/18/2007, 03:29 PM
Nothing really to update at this time. I am slowly getting things back in shape after neglecting it for several months. It's down to one small patch of algae now. I have been surprised that the algae never did take over the cement walls though. It all stayed on the sand and live rock in the middle. I was worried a little when i built it that if i let it go that it would get algae growing all over the cement walls and be impossible to ever get rid of, but that didn't happen.

Mykel Obvious
11/23/2008, 08:53 PM
bump for new photos and updates

dugg
11/28/2008, 06:07 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/dugg/100_1855.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/dugg/100_1854.jpg