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halophila
06/29/2005, 12:42 AM
Hi all, this is my new 4' shallow tank dedicated to seagrass and macroalgae.

Overview of left corner of the tank, and yes, the outer glass is quite dirty:
http://*******.com/6hi2vb.jpg


Close up of the Halophila's leaves:
http://*******.com/6hi2y1.jpg


Under the sunlight, maybe diffcult to be viewed in this picture, lots of O2 bubble coming off! it looks like as if the firebird is swimming in sodalime cream:
http://*******.com/6hi33m.jpg


So, here it comes the closeup of O2 bubbles, foreground are feather algae and Hypnea pannosa:
http://*******.com/6hi361.jpg

Samala
06/29/2005, 07:20 AM
Fantastic! So thats a feather macroalgae and not Halophila johnsonii.. right? Had to ask. ;) Its a pretty small feather, I havent seen that before. Your true Halophila.. baillonis or ovalis? And do you mind if I ask how you got it? Collected?

I havent seen red speckling on Halophila engelmannii so far.. maybe this is peculiar to your lighting regime or just the species. Its pretty though. So with an all grass/macro tank how do you address nutrients in the tank?

Ok.. enough of twenty questions.. I just got excited when I saw this tank. Anything you want to share as far as setup, equipment, nutrient dosing, etc. I imagine almost everyone would really appreciate. I think this tank will create lots of questions (and requests to trade.. lol). :D

>Sarah

Samala
06/29/2005, 08:57 PM
Here's a pic of mine:
<img height=300 width=400 border=1 src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/slardizabal/grass/corner628.jpg"><br>

I also posted an update to my website if anyone is interested.. ;) Dont mean to hijack this thread though, I cant wait to hear how you are doing your tank Halophila! (Great name by the way.)

>Sarah

halophila
06/29/2005, 09:49 PM
Sarah, thanks for your reply. I gotta go in a few minutes, so here comes a quick reply first.

My tank's setup:

Dimensions: 48" x 12" x 12"
Actual volume: 70L
Protien skimmer: none
Calcium reactor: none
Denitrator: none
Phosphoreactor: none
Filter: a 1200Liter/hr powerhead only
Lighting equipment: none, use natural sunlight instead
Salt brand: none, I use natural seawater

Tank parameters:

pH: never checked
Ca level: never checked
Kh level: never checked
Salinity: 1.025
Temperature: 24-25C
Refill water: dd water, or DI water, depends on avaliabilty





Substrate: fine aragonite
live rocks: some Indonesian, a little bit from Fiji
livestocks: lots of mini-brittle starfishes, lots of mini-abalone, 5 firebirds, lots of brittle worms(only nusiance stuff in my tank)
Macroalgae: Lots of different types, will provide name later on
Plants: Halophila ovalis

C ya ,

halophila ;)

halophila
07/01/2005, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by Samala
Fantastic! So thats a feather macroalgae and not Halophila johnsonii.. right? Had to ask. ;) Its a pretty small feather, I havent seen that before.
]

Yes, it is one of the variety of the common feather algae I guess. Several years ago, I did luckily got a even smaller growing feather algae which was deep green in color.


Your true Halophila.. baillonis or ovalis? And do you mind if I ask how you got it? Collected?

Yes, it is Halophila ovalis:thumbsup: , one of the most widespread seagrass species in the pacific region. From Japan to Australia, you can see them in lagoons, mudflat, atolls and sheltered area. I got it from my colleagues collection dated back to year 2000. By now, the original wild population has already gone.


I havent seen red speckling on Halophila engelmannii so far.. maybe this is peculiar to your lighting regime or just the species.
Yes, strong light will help. But I'd rather bet it is more species-dependent.

Its pretty though. So with an all grass/macro tank how do you address nutrients in the tank?
I believe in the religion of "Biodiveristy". It means that if you don't want any single algae to take over your tank without control, you must keep as many as species of different plants as possible. The more different species you have, the more stable grass/macro ecosystem you can acheive. Theortically, they will compete with each other for nutrients, light and other limiting factors and thus keep each others in check. This is more like a assumption than a fact, that's why I treated it as a religion. At this moment, the dominat species is still Halophila ovalis, the second one is feather algae. Grape algae is there, but can't take a leading role.

My total volume of water minus creatures and rocks/sands are 60L. I planned to do water changing for 20L in weekly basis. Due to my own laziness, I never achieved the target and do a monthly change of 20L instead. So, you can treat my water changing plan as 1/3 every month.

I do have those goodies like Protien skimmer and denitrator. However, due to ultimate design flaw, I can't install them in this tank. If I could install them, I believe they would have improven my tank's nutrient management.


Ok.. enough of twenty questions.. I just got excited when I saw this tank. Anything you want to share as far as setup, equipment, nutrient dosing, etc. I imagine almost everyone would really appreciate.


For a lazy bone like me, nutrient dosing is omitted too. My excuse is, if I can get natural sea water, and change water frequently, I don't need to care about nutrient supplement and dosing etc....Of courese the first part is correct and the second part is far from true...XD


I am lucky enough to live in a coastal region. In the office building, they pump the sea water for flushing purpose. There is a small pipe room behind every washroom. At the morning, if you ask the cleaning ladys politely to open the pipe room specifically for you and promise not to get them in any trouble afterwards, they normally will help you. The pscyhological hinderance of getting water in this manner is greater then the actual quality concern though. I even found fouling organisms like Aiptasia and miniature feather dusters living inside the flushing tank!! :eek1: :D :p





I think this tank will create lots of questions (and requests to trade.. lol)

Sure, I am looking for that too!

Samala
07/01/2005, 07:14 AM
Sounds like you're somewhere in the Pacific.. cool! I imagine you find all sorts of interesting macro's that we dont often see here on the East Coast US and the Caribbean that I visit.

For the nutrients.. since you have a good bioload (three firefish plus some inverts) I think you are getting away with not dosing any nutrients. Your large water changes also are helping out with this I suspect. This likely inhibits any of the macronutrients from getting too high as well as providing enough of the micronutrients (or trace elements) through the natural seawater that you're using.

If its working for you than I certainly wont be the one to knock it. But I will point out that I was also seeing reddish growth out of Halophila engelmanni.. whole red leaves, no just red spots.. and it looks like a few of your ovalis leaves are this same red-leaf condition. Its from low-nitrogen levels in the tank (or low nitrate). If you were to dose nitrate I'd be curious to see if this goes away as it does with stargrass.

I would love to do the natural seawater route, but I am more than a little wary of the water around here. And not just for pollutant problems. More along the lines of seeing data about how many viruses and bacteria can live in a single drop of coastal ocean water. :D Call me paranoid.

I think its interesting that you are using sunlight for the tank.. since its on the small side, how do you deal with heat problems? I imagine the solar load on the tank is enough to raise/lower the water temperature a degree or two Celcius.

Ok, last thought, I'd be surprised and shocked if the denitrator and the protein skimmer did a whole lot for water quality in the tank. I would actually never put a denitrator on my tank as nitrate is one of the plants' primary food sources. :) My protein skimmer pulls lots of skimmate out only when the tank goes longer than two weeks without a water change.. though it did do a nice job of removing organics while the tank was cycling. Its more for aeration and stabilizing the pH than anything else at this point.

How long have you had the tank set up?

>Sarah

mushroom head
07/01/2005, 12:44 PM
Would you sell me some Halophila's leaves?If you will how much would you sell to me and how much would it cost? I LOVE macro algae tanks. Do the Halophila's leaves like a deep sand bed?

halophila
07/01/2005, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Samala
If its working for you than I certainly wont be the one to knock it. But I will point out that I was also seeing reddish growth out of Halophila engelmanni.. whole red leaves, no just red spots.. and it looks like a few of your ovalis leaves are this same red-leaf condition. Its from low-nitrogen levels in the tank (or low nitrate). If you were to dose nitrate I'd be curious to see if this goes away as it does with stargrass.

I would love to do the natural seawater route, but I am more than a little wary of the water around here. And not just for pollutant problems. More along the lines of seeing data about how many viruses and bacteria can live in a single drop of coastal ocean water. :D Call me paranoid.

Sarah, thanks for your info. Right now the H. ovalis is the dominant species. All the other algae do grow, but not as fast as the H. ovalis. I am not sure if supplmenting nitrates may shift this equilibrium or not. I also notice the young red leaves symptom, and if nutrient deficinecy started to affect the mature leaves or slow down the growth rate, I will surely take the nutrient supplement route.

The new tank is almost one month old and the H. ovalis has nearly double in size, so I am quite satisfied with its growth rate.

Lastly.... with bacteria like Vibiro vulinficus and Mycobacterium marinum living in non-polluted sea water, you shouldn't call yourself paranoid;) I do wear gloves whenever I need to do any tank work. And I won't do any tank maintenace or even touching sea water if I have any small wounds/cuts in my hands. Yes, it is very not common to get those nasty infection, but I don't wanna take the risk either.

halophila
07/01/2005, 09:55 PM
The overall outlook
http://*******.com/6nw2fo.jpg

Some closeup of macros
http://*******.com/6nw2yr.jpg

Samala
07/01/2005, 11:34 PM
Very very nice.. I'm so jealous. :)

halophila
07/02/2005, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Samala
I think its interesting that you are using sunlight for the tank.. since its on the small side, how do you deal with heat problems? I imagine the solar load on the tank is enough to raise/lower the water temperature a degree or two Celcius.

Sarah, it is located in an air-conditioned room. The water temperature is stablilized at 24.5C for most of the time. With direct sunlight from noon to 5:00pm, the temperature may rise up to 27C before sunset.


I also like your tank's setup, with so many different seagrass species, it has a very high potential for aquascaping like the freshwater planted tank:D

mushroom head
07/02/2005, 03:29 PM
Would you sell me some Halophila's leaves?If you will how much would you sell to me and how much would it cost? I LOVE macro algae tanks. Do the Halophila's leaves like a deep sand bed?

mushroom head
07/02/2005, 04:42 PM
Actually would you sell me one of every kind of algae/plant?

halophila
07/02/2005, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by mushroom head
Actually would you sell me one of every kind of algae/plant?

Mushroomhead, please check pm.

>halophila

mushroom head
07/02/2005, 07:47 PM
Halophila, please check your pm.

>mushroom head

spencerx15
07/02/2005, 07:53 PM
that is a beautiful setup, i think i might set up something similar but smaller...

halophila
07/03/2005, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by spencerx15
that is a beautiful setup, i think i might set up something similar but smaller...

Spencer, glad to know you like it too. I will suggest to get a small shallow tank. You can select any length and depth but make the water height(from water surface to the top of sand bed) equals to less than 12". A shallow tank is not only easy to do tank maintenance, it is also less demanding on lighting requirement. YOu can use less sophisticated lighting gears and don't need to worry about not enough light.

In addition, a shallow and long tank will also allow you to do all sorts of aquascaping like the freshwater planted tank.

eleodes
07/03/2005, 10:54 PM
wow! that is sweet--expertly done.

Meeker
07/12/2005, 12:49 PM
Wow... Nice

now I know what I'm going to do with that extra tank I have laying around...

and people thought that was going to stay empty for long...


Meeker

halophila
07/13/2005, 02:18 AM
http://*******.com/7308aw.jpg
http://*******.com/7308dt.jpg

hollinhead
07/13/2005, 02:55 PM
nice set up

DensityMan
07/13/2005, 04:15 PM
Beautiful tank and a very nice selection of plants and algae!

sylphid
07/13/2005, 11:25 PM
Cool seagrass and macroalgae tank.
Terapon jarbua are fierce. Little Liza may be dangerous.
I also think you are living in asia. :)

geckos5
07/16/2005, 09:39 PM
holy crap i love this tank.

i have 4 freshwater tanks and love the planted look.i know have a 150 gallon saltwater that i love but miss the planted look.i hear if i plANT macroalgea it will be hard to control in the main tank.so the next thing i want to do is a nano tank,and your set up is perfect for my dresser.can you post any more pics of the setup,
is there a sump.i like the rufugium side of the tank to.did a glass shop build it for or did you build it...

halophila
07/21/2005, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by sylphid
Cool seagrass and macroalgae tank.
Terapon jarbua are fierce. Little Liza may be dangerous.
I also think you are living in asia. :)

Hi sylphid! Yes, it is a bad idea to add Terapon together with M. cephalus. Although they were caught in the same tidepool, Terapon are much more fierce then M. cephalus. Terapon also has a bad habit of tail picking on other fishes. I should return the rest of M. cephalus back to the sea.

Yes, I am from Asia. You may able tell my locality by the design of the tank :p

halophila
07/21/2005, 11:15 PM
Hollinhead and DensityMan thanks for your appreiciation ;)
geckos5, sure, I will take more shot of my tank early next week. It is a sumpless tank. It is designed and custom made by a LFS.

skylsdale
08/05/2005, 10:56 AM
Any updates?

mala-zaba
08/09/2005, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by halophila
Some closeup of macros
http://*******.com/6nw2yr.jpg [/B]

What the name of this green and red algae ?

glennb
08/10/2005, 11:35 AM
There's at least four green's there. The feathery one's Caulerpa taxifolia, the coin shaped one's a Halimeda sp., spherical one's probably Ventricaria, don't know about the serrated one.

algaeguy
08/17/2005, 08:10 PM
halophila:

Just wanted to let you know how much I think your tank is spectacular. It is an absolute thrill to see hobbyists doing seagrass biotope tanks!

Thanks for posting these great pics! Your efforts- and everyone else who is trying this type of system, are greatly appreciated by the hobby. A terrific inspiration!

Funny, but after years of being on RC, this is the first time I have been on this forum...Thrilled that I came!

Keep those pics coming!


Scott

Sheldon337
08/18/2005, 12:07 AM
Is the red macro red grape kelp?

halophila
08/18/2005, 02:21 AM
Thanks all guys for your appreiciation and kind words, I have been too lazy to take care of my tank. And I was suddenly interested in expanding my cactus collection, and forget to keep this post updated. ;)

That's all for the unconvincing excuses, let's view the photo :)


I found out this interesting structure after the Halophila's blooming. I am not sure if it is dormant buds, or seeds or even (unlikely)tubers. It may has nothing to do with the previous flowering as well. Let's see what it gives out later.
http://*******.com/aomcep.jpg

halophila
08/18/2005, 02:25 AM
these new comers keep my sand bed snow white :P

http://*******.com/aomej7.jpg


Bull Dozers in action. What a monster in macro scale!:D
http://*******.com/aomerm.jpg

halophila
08/18/2005, 03:06 AM
This photo gives me an impression of a tropical jungle. Botryocladia is hiding inside the vines and branches weaved by C. filicoides, C. sertularioides, C. peltata and C. serrulata.


http://*******.com/aomhwg.jpg

Samala
08/18/2005, 09:28 AM
That's lookin good! The cukes do look like monsters. The structure on the H. ovalis is interesting... (if it is ovalis.. possibly decipiens I imagine.. did you ever ID?) I never saw any structures form after H. engelmanni bloomed. Even though I can find references for male and female flowers in engelmanni (as opposed to johnsonii which has no male flowers apparently) there are no references to seeds or any kind of fruit formed after fertilization.

I am wondering if perhaps the rhizome lengths I gathered were all single sex so I wasnt able to see fertilization.

Once more, the tank is looking good! :D
>Sarah

geckos5
09/10/2005, 04:07 PM
geckos5 here again.
just wondering if you took more pics of your tank for me yet.just want to see your right side where the live rock is kept and to see your filtering system.that would be great,if you have time for your fan.love this little tank.

i want one bad.

modemfox
09/10/2005, 05:51 PM
I too am interested in that filtration system.

wdt2000
09/10/2005, 09:20 PM
Great looking tank:beer:

Telgian
09/13/2005, 08:45 PM
Hello,

Beautiful tank.
I've begun collecting macro algaes for my tanks since I like the contrast that they provide.

I'm wondering what the name of this algae is.
I have a little bit of it growing out in my quarantine tank, and would like to find out what it is called.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/74878Halophila.jpg

It came into my tank on some live rock from java, along with about five other macroalges :D and a sps coral that came back from the skeleton. :eek: :cool: :D

TIA

sylphid
09/14/2005, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by Telgian

I'm wondering what the name of this algae is.
I have a little bit of it growing out in my quarantine tank, and would like to find out what it is called.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/74878Halophila.jpg


It's Caulerpa serrulata.

Harmsway
09/14/2005, 06:01 AM
I too am interested in the filter system. It looks like an overflow on to some live rock and an easy to replace filter pad. Tell us more.

Gene

modemfox
09/14/2005, 09:46 PM
^BUMP!

Plantbrain
09/15/2005, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by glennb
There's at least four green's there. The feathery one's Caulerpa taxifolia, the coin shaped one's a Halimeda sp., spherical one's probably Ventricaria, don't know about the serrated one.

C serrrata and the feathery one is NOT taxifolia, it is C sertularioides.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Diatome
09/16/2005, 06:23 AM
Agreed Sertularioides . I just got some of this two days ago along with some Racemosa var. Peltata.

Love the tank. Can't wait for an update. I used to do freshwater tanks that sat in windows to get sun. I have only two reef tanks now and do use natural sunlight for one, a 37 gallon, and some difused natural light on a 12 gallon. Been limited to some tree algae, and about 6 varieties of red macro algae along with halimeda. Looking forward to something that isn't attached to a rock besides the halimeda.

halophila
10/05/2005, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by geckos5
geckos5 here again.
just wondering if you took more pics of your tank for me yet.just want to see your right side where the live rock is kept and to see your filtering system.that would be great,if you have time for your fan.love this little tank.

i want one bad.

Hi geckos5, sorry for the delay ;)

here it is the updated picture of the tank:
http://*******.com/ea14x2.jpg


closeup of the overflow chamber:
http://*******.com/ea15vq.jpg


Filter pad on the top:
http://*******.com/ea16ir.jpg


Extra liverocks placed Under the filter pad, they are there not because of filtration purpose, just not enough room for them in main tank:
http://*******.com/ea18c0.jpg


Second chamber includes only a heator and a small power head:
http://*******.com/ea17uo.jpg


PVC pippings lead to the main tank:
http://*******.com/ea17ys.jpg

halophila
10/05/2005, 08:34 PM
Top view of the main tank:
http://*******.com/ea189d.jpg


Color balance is very important:
http://*******.com/ea18q1.jpg


Sea cucumber and hermit crab:
http://*******.com/ea18w5.jpg


A different variety of C. racemosa pop up from a live rock:
http://*******.com/ea199g.jpg


The dominant fish:
http://*******.com/ea19c6.jpg

Samala
10/05/2005, 10:06 PM
<drool> I see I need to step up my aquascaping to keep up with your ever-more-beautiful setup. :) Some of the Halophilas seem to be going transparent and red.. I see this in my tank when nitrogen drops really low. Are you adding any fertilizers at all to this tank yet?

Also.. do you see any major competition between the macroalgae, esp. the Caulerpas, and the seagrass? And, last question I promise, dont the cukes bulldoze over the grasses? My stargrass is a little fragile and the stems dont take well to being bent over by snails and such. I had to get rid of my adorable baby conch because he was trampling the grasses.

Keep up the good work! I like the banggai's in place of the firefish. They didnt jump on you did they?

>Sarah

halophila
10/05/2005, 10:15 PM
Porcelain crab:
http://*******.com/ea2l2s.jpg

greenighs
10/06/2005, 03:37 PM
I'm so inspired now! I actually am more excited about setting up my sump than I am about the display tank.

halophila, do you find the different macro species compete for light and space to grow? Do some of them choke out or eliminate others? I found my macros choked my vascular plants, or at least that was what I assumed had happened, since the seagrasses didn't take off. So this time, I'm keeping the macros in the sump and the seagrasses in the display.

geckos5
10/06/2005, 08:26 PM
thank you very much for the update.very informative.looking so clean and colorful.

Duce
10/07/2005, 10:28 AM
Very nice

modemfox
10/07/2005, 09:54 PM
I especially like the Neon Tetras in the FW tank beside it, and pics of that, is it planted to?

halophila
10/09/2005, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Samala
<drool> I see I need to step up my aquascaping to keep up with your ever-more-beautiful setup. :) Some of the Halophilas seem to be going transparent and red.. I see this in my tank when nitrogen drops really low. Are you adding any fertilizers at all to this tank yet?

Also.. do you see any major competition between the macroalgae, esp. the Caulerpas, and the seagrass? And, last question I promise, dont the cukes bulldoze over the grasses? My stargrass is a little fragile and the stems dont take well to being bent over by snails and such. I had to get rid of my adorable baby conch because he was trampling the grasses.

Keep up the good work! I like the banggai's in place of the firefish. They didnt jump on you did they?

>Sarah

Sarah, yes, the problem is getting worse. Even though I am a heavy feeder, the growth of both macroalgae and seagrass slow down in these days. And together with the red leaves problem, perhaps it is the right time to dose some plant fertilizer. :D

halophila
10/19/2005, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by modemfox
I especially like the Neon Tetras in the FW tank beside it, and pics of that, is it planted to?

Yes, it is. :p

But it only serves as reserviour for extra plants, and hence it is very messy :D

halophila
10/19/2005, 07:45 PM
This was how the tank look like a year ago, before upgrading to the current one
http://*******.com/es012e.jpg

Substrates are crushed oysters shells, beach sands and silts collected in rocky shore
http://*******.com/es0ldw.jpg

The leaves were much more lush green then now. This is a big mistake to use aragonite only for the new tank, I am considering to remove the sand bed, fill up the bottom with mud and silt first and cover it up with aragonite.
http://*******.com/es0llh.jpg

halophila
10/19/2005, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by greenighs
I'm so inspired now! I actually am more excited about setting up my sump than I am about the display tank.

halophila, do you find the different macro species compete for light and space to grow? Do some of them choke out or eliminate others? I found my macros choked my vascular plants, or at least that was what I assumed had happened, since the seagrasses didn't take off. So this time, I'm keeping the macros in the sump and the seagrasses in the display.

Greenighs, yes they do. Right now, the feather algae is the dominant species. I normally hand picked them away once a week to keep them in control.

halophila
10/19/2005, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Samala
<drool> I see I need to step up my aquascaping to keep up with your ever-more-beautiful setup. :) Some of the Halophilas seem to be going transparent and red.. I see this in my tank when nitrogen drops really low. Are you adding any fertilizers at all to this tank yet?

Also.. do you see any major competition between the macroalgae, esp. the Caulerpas, and the seagrass? And, last question I promise, dont the cukes bulldoze over the grasses? My stargrass is a little fragile and the stems dont take well to being bent over by snails and such. I had to get rid of my adorable baby conch because he was trampling the grasses.

Keep up the good work! I like the banggai's in place of the firefish. They didnt jump on you did they?

>Sarah

I did dose KNO3 to get rid of Cynaobacteria in the first month, since then I have not added them again. I was adding 10ppm NO3 for 60L total volume, I didn't check the background NO3 concentration though.

Perhaps it is time to consider NO3 supplement or even fertilizer to boost the seagrass growth, any recommendation for it? :D

Surprisingly, the cukes are very gentle to the grass:D. They are not interested in anything but the sand. I tried to place some finely menced krill on the sand bed and they avoided it too. Perhaps I have too many of them, I shall return some of them to the sea this week.

Normally, hermit crabs sift the sands for debris and cut away epiphytic algae on Halophila's leaves. However, they will pick on H. ovalis's young leaves if they are starving. Not very ideal for seagrass tank I think.


Fire fish, yeah all of them jumped up and dead :(

halophila
10/19/2005, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Sheldon337
Is the red macro red grape kelp?

Yes, they are :D. One should be Botryocladia spp. The other is unknown.

Samala
10/19/2005, 08:39 PM
Good to hear from you again! If you have access to KNO3 I would continue to use it and keep the dosing into the 2-5ppm range. I keep mine 5-10ppm and have no ill effects on fish but I dont have any really sensitive invertebrates. Cucumbers may not like nitrates so high. I wonder if they are eating cyanobacteria.. each time NO3 hits zero in my tank it comes back.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what's available to you for fertilizers and such. Amano's ADA products might be available to you or possibly Dupla or Elos? Any of these should have decent fertilizers meant for planted aquaria that should be a good place to start. Be careful if you go the route of using fertilizers meant for land plants. They often contain ammoniacal nitrogen source which is like candy to algae species not to mention they are almost always much much too high in phosphates.

Keep up the good work!
>Sarah

eleodes
10/31/2005, 11:06 PM
Halophila-

Here is latest shot of the tank we have here in the classroom. I was able to pull together quite a few species of seaweeds. They really took off when I added them:

http://entomology.wisc.edu/~dbiggs/marine/log/tnk_30_10_05.jpg

I really have to figure out how to get better pictures. Here is the log page with more updates:

http://entomology.wisc.edu/~dbiggs/marine/log/tnkI_II.html

The tank has a lot of empty vertical space on top; I cropped this image. I intend to add a swimming fish or two as well as some branching soft corals to improve composition.

Plantbrain
11/04/2005, 01:30 PM
That is classic NO3 limited growth, KNO3 is cheap and easy to add, there are dosing calculators and you can make a solution.

I think the uptake rates are certainly slower than FW tanks, (2-4ppm per day) and finding the export of the NO3=> N2 gas is an issue, but you can remove the plants to find that vs a tank(but how much is N loss through leeching from the plants?)

I would add perhaps 5-10ppm a week and see how much uptake you get.

I would also suggest a better kit if you want to maintain low lebvels of NO3 consistenly.

Hanna makes a decent unit for about 180$ and then you need to buy the reagents.

I would make a set of standards(not a bad class room project either BTW) over 0.1ppm, 0.5ppm, 1, ppm, 2ppm, 5ppm, 10ppm and 20ppm NO3.

Lamotte test kits are okay but after you add the 4.4 factor, they are off by a few ppm.

At low levels and precise predictions, this is not that good of information.

It's fine if you want to target 10-20ppm and do not kind larger water changes.

I think folks could get away with that, and control their PO4 more critically.

I'd NEVER suggest using aragonite alone for a macro macro tank or any tank.

Always vacuum an established tank and add the fresh muck to the new tank's bottom 1/2". Add a little soaked soil etc. Onyx sand instead of arag if you prefer darker color.

That is the best thing you can add for any new tank start up.
Some add laterite etc to prevent too much reduction to H2S(this does not last forever though).

Regards,
Tom Barr

http://reefcentral.com/agreement.php

Billionzz
11/05/2005, 12:13 AM
Hi Tom,

I started a small reef tank with some shoal grass on one side of the tank.

My subsrate is 7" deep but it is aragonite. What would you suggest adding to the substrate for better growth of the sea grass, macro's and corals?

Bill

halophila
11/06/2005, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Samala


Otherwise, I'm not sure what's available to you for fertilizers and such. Amano's ADA products might be available to you or possibly Dupla or Elos? Any of these should have decent fertilizers meant for planted aquaria that should be a good place to start. Be careful if you go the route of using fertilizers meant for land plants. They often contain ammoniacal nitrogen source which is like candy to algae species not to mention they are almost always much much too high in phosphates.

Keep up the good work!
>Sarah

Sarah, thanks for you suggestion.:D As those fertilizers are primarily designed for freshwater planted aquarium, it is too risky to do experiment with them in the main tank which I don't have backup plants.

After getting back to 25% water change per week, stuff is going back to right track; and I will be setting up a 15 liter experimental seagrass tank very soon. So, maybe I will stick back to the current regime and carry out the fertilizer testing in the small tank. It is good to have another for control experiment too! :)


For the small tank, I am planning to use the sand and mud collected in a nearby mangrove and rocky shore as basal substratum.
:cool:

halophila
11/06/2005, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by eleodes
Halophila-

Here is latest shot of the tank we have here in the classroom. I was able to pull together quite a few species of seaweeds. They really took off when I added them:

http://entomology.wisc.edu/~dbiggs/marine/log/tnk_30_10_05.jpg

I really have to figure out how to get better pictures. Here is the log page with more updates:

http://entomology.wisc.edu/~dbiggs/marine/log/tnkI_II.html

The tank has a lot of empty vertical space on top; I cropped this image. I intend to add a swimming fish or two as well as some branching soft corals to improve composition.


Eleodes, it is nice to see another marine planted tank:D , what is the macros right hand side in the bottom? is it a sea grass?;)

halophila
11/06/2005, 09:22 AM
recent addition, a pretty slow grower, Ruppia maritima:
http://*******.com/f4k500.jpg






Ruppia's photo on the net:

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&&lr=&q=ruppia+maritima

eleodes
11/06/2005, 01:29 PM
Halophila-

No, that's not a seagrass. It's just <em>Caulerpa paspaloides</em>. This tank doesn't have the substrate or light to support seagrasses.

We are setting up a second tank and I am pondering whether to try to make seagrass theme for it.

Plantbrain
11/11/2005, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Billionzz
Hi Tom,

I started a small reef tank with some shoal grass on one side of the tank.

My subsrate is 7" deep but it is aragonite. What would you suggest adding to the substrate for better growth of the sea grass, macro's and corals?

Bill

Any marine sandy mud will do, soil even that's been soaked and netted for a 3 weeks or boiled.

Any organic source, mulm from an established tank's vacuumed DBS will also work fine.

Main thing is to provide the bacteria with a carbon source and something to cause some reduction to occur in the DBS.

It's not really a nutrient source, it is a cycling component for the bacteria which are the transformers/sinks/sources for the nutrients besides the dosing you might do.

Regards,
Tom Barr

shane 1111
11/18/2005, 06:56 AM
is there any place with a list of pics and names of the sea grasses?

eleodes
11/22/2005, 09:23 PM
i did some more aquascaping today and here's a somewhat better picture:

http://entomology.wisc.edu/~dbiggs/marine/log/tnkI_22_11_2nd_05.jpg

this can't compare to Halophila's tank shots in natural sunlight.

i have added some soft corals and they are very happy.

Plantbrain
11/29/2005, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by shane 1111
is there any place with a list of pics and names of the sea grasses?

Without a doubt, the best books avail for plants./macro's are the Little and little books, they have a S Pacific and a Carb Sea book that are great.

Worth the $ if you have a passion for these plants.
(55$ and 90$ ea respectively)

FYI, the C paspoliedes will turn white on the older growth if you do not have enough NO3.

KNO3 is easily obtainable through many source and is quite good(pure). Same with KH2PO4 etc.

You may also consider Ca(NO3)2, since it adds more Ca+, and marine systems have little issue with K+ levels.

I may get to doa 15ftx4x5 Salt tank soon.
We have a 1500gal Discus planted tank coming up.

I may do a warm water angiosperm marine tank soon also.
Right now I have to still get that cold water marine planted Cube done up.


Regards,
Tom Barr

http://reefcentral.com/agreement.php

Swanwillow
01/30/2006, 12:34 PM
:D IMO its time for an update!!!!

I'm pointing people to this thread for use of normal window lighting... do you do anything special? other than having AC what other problems have you come across using lighting from outside?

eleodes
01/31/2006, 10:29 PM
maybe somebody should PM or email halipohila to see if he is still out there(?).

halophila
08/08/2006, 02:59 AM
bojangsjang, that's how it looks like now ;)
http://i6.*******.com/2418jr4.jpg

mr. bojangsjang
08/08/2006, 02:13 PM
beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CamBarr
08/14/2006, 07:00 PM
any updated pics???

Sarah D.
08/16/2006, 01:02 AM
I've got lots of feather algae in my tank taken from the Gulf. It grows pretty fast.

I like the green and the fish seem to like it also.

halophila
08/29/2006, 12:46 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7939976#post7939976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CamBarr
any updated pics???

CamBarr, that's how it looks like now, crowded with seagrasses and fishes. :)

http://i2.*******.com/25z74g8.jpg
http://i5.*******.com/25z772b.jpg

ejaustin
08/29/2006, 06:00 AM
Wow! Stunning!

ej

mr. bojangsjang
08/30/2006, 02:28 PM
Looks great! I liked the first aquascape best though, but the assortment of fish in it now looks sweet.

Mihai
08/30/2006, 03:59 PM
I agree that it's a tank to drool at. I start to wonder if my reef tank is not all wrong :-).

M.

whatnot45
08/31/2006, 03:06 PM
I want one of those!

lol

whatnot45
08/31/2006, 03:07 PM
how many gallons is the tank?

Dyceskynes
09/12/2006, 11:12 AM
Would there be a benefit adding a similar tank like this onto a main tank loop?

sunfishh
09/14/2006, 07:46 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8034660#post8034660 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ejaustin
Wow! Stunning!

ej

I second that :)

20reefer
09/22/2006, 06:44 AM
Amazing!

boxfishpooalot
09/22/2006, 05:51 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5535217#post5535217 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by halophila
This photo gives me an impression of a tropical jungle. Botryocladia is hiding inside the vines and branches weaved by C. filicoides, C. sertularioides, C. peltata and C. serrulata.


http://*******.com/aomhwg.jpg


Whats the red grape looking macro? I have some in my tank im not sure what it is.


Great algae by the way, never gone sexual and is super tough.

graveyardworm
09/22/2006, 06:41 PM
Botryocladia

Zero-2-Sixty
09/25/2006, 11:42 PM
i just had to peek into this forum didnt i? now i want a macro tank. you guys suck

Limbo
09/26/2006, 08:03 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8222422#post8222422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zero-2-Sixty
i just had to peek into this forum didnt i? now i want a macro tank. you guys suck
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I peeked in a couple of months ago and now I've started one....

WarEagleNR88
10/05/2006, 10:14 PM
Wow... very interesting!

halophila
11/24/2006, 02:16 AM
An Update, now I prefer to have more corals in the setup.

http://i10.*******.com/4hc2ntv.jpg

halophila
11/24/2006, 02:21 AM
What goby is this?

http://i15.*******.com/2irm15t.jpg

halophila
11/24/2006, 02:21 AM
Top view
http://i7.*******.com/34rycs7.jpg

halophila
11/24/2006, 02:22 AM
Top view 2
http://i10.*******.com/29makgn.jpg

halophila
11/24/2006, 02:23 AM
Top View 3
http://i10.*******.com/40bjfy9.jpg

halophila
11/24/2006, 02:26 AM
http://i9.*******.com/2f0di5e.jpg


A. Thalassia hemprichii
B. Halodule uninervis

halophila
11/24/2006, 02:33 AM
Schooling fishes swim among seagrasses and corals.
http://i7.*******.com/2v9tbbm.jpg

halophila
11/24/2006, 02:45 AM
http://i15.*******.com/2nlsglt.jpg

C. Syringodium isoetifolium

graveyardworm
11/24/2006, 04:42 PM
I love updates, your tank looks awesome. How many cucumbers are in there?

halophila
11/25/2006, 07:03 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8052366#post8052366 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by whatnot45
how many gallons is the tank?

Hi, it is around 100L, approximately 26.4 US gallons. Mini-reef in US standard :D

halophila
11/25/2006, 07:06 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8129338#post8129338 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dyceskynes
Would there be a benefit adding a similar tank like this onto a main tank loop?

Dyceskynes, hi I really dunno about this, perhaps somebody could try to see if it works or not.

halophila
11/25/2006, 07:07 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8223499#post8223499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Limbo
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I peeked in a couple of months ago and now I've started one....

That's cool Limbo, can you share your setup with us? :p

halophila
11/25/2006, 07:15 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8613036#post8613036 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
I love updates, your tank looks awesome. How many cucumbers are in there?

Hi graveyardworm, ten maybe? I really couldn't recall. They are all small one. Large ones are more efficient, but too efficient to uproot the young seagrass and mess up the mud/aragonite layers too. So, I employed a dozen of smaller ones to do the job.

mr. bojangsjang
11/26/2006, 06:44 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8615512#post8615512 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by halophila
Hi, it is around 100L, approximately 26.4 US gallons. Mini-reef in US standard :D

Wow that tank looks wayyyy more than 26 gallons!

Cody Ray
11/27/2006, 12:55 AM
U have some many fish in that tank I wish I could pull that off!

hooterhead
12/01/2006, 12:11 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8610451#post8610451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by halophila
What goby is this?

http://i15.*******.com/2irm15t.jpg


Black Sailfin Blenny
(Atrosalarias fuscus)

sunfishh
12/09/2006, 03:50 PM
Bump
Can we get an update Halophila?
I am a huge fan of your tank :)

halophila
12/18/2006, 11:36 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8715246#post8715246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunfishh
Bump
Can we get an update Halophila?
I am a huge fan of your tank :)

sunfishh, :) thanks for your kind words. Nothing special. Seagrasses still grow, and corals grow too. ;) Except my camera is dying, and I am thinking to change it to coral only display tank.

gemini aquarius(t)
12/18/2006, 04:18 PM
wow your tank s amazing and only 27 gallons!!!! i want my tank to be that cool. how are the anthias doing i thought they needed a much bigger tank/
?? anyways nice tank please stay with the macros and grasses !!!

gemini aquarius(t)
12/18/2006, 04:18 PM
also what filtation are you running/>

sunfishh
12/20/2006, 12:37 AM
Nice to see you back halophila :)

rekn
02/12/2007, 07:43 PM
sorry to necro an old thread but halo, what are those silver fish in your third post with pics? also, where did you get them?

whatnot45
02/13/2007, 05:49 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5362135#post5362135 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by halophila
Hi sylphid! Yes, it is a bad idea to add Terapon together with M. cephalus. Although they were caught in the same tidepool, Terapon are much more fierce then M. cephalus. Terapon also has a bad habit of tail picking on other fishes. I should return the rest of M. cephalus back to the sea.

Yes, I am from Asia. You may able tell my locality by the design of the tank :p

Where do you live? i want to move there

bv
03/04/2007, 12:03 PM
Wow! I can't begin to say how much I love these planted tanks. I'm new to the marine setups and couldn't have imagined a tank could look so great without the major cost of a reef. Could anyone offer any reading on macro-algae and grass? Thanks, Brian.

graveyardworm
03/04/2007, 12:22 PM
http://reefcentral.com/images/welcome.gif

to RC bv, check all the articles in this link.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/algae.php

bv
03/06/2007, 08:59 PM
Thanks. Do most of you use a mud/sand bottom? I'm using 1/4" crushed coral and it looks like I'm going to need at least sand.

graveyardworm
03/06/2007, 09:21 PM
I'm using aragonite, you'll need 2-3 inches for most halodule, halophila, and 5 inches plus for thallasia.

invertaman
03/08/2007, 09:52 AM
Hey what type of cukes are those?

ptero.fan
03/14/2007, 11:23 AM
absolutely amazing =)

what's the aquarium substrate consisting of?

Plantbrain
03/15/2007, 12:14 PM
What would be nice is seeing a good rug of Halophila for a foreground and then corals, not really that natural, but would look nice.
Then a nice integrated macro algae tank for the filter.
But not some ratty looking thing, something that is taken care of shows some pride.

That would be the ideal system IMO.

Regards,

Tom Barr

dwd5813
03/30/2007, 02:09 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8615516#post8615516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by halophila
Dyceskynes, hi I really dunno about this, perhaps somebody could try to see if it works or not.

if i recall correctly, Eric Borneman (at least at the time his Aquarium Corals book was published) maintained a system consisting of multiple tanks, one of which contained seagrasses. hang on............................(dwd grabs erics book) ................................................................................yes, in the about the author page in the back it says "His personal home aquariums include a multihabitat system of more than 500 gallons that links a seagrass habitat, an intertidal habitat, and a large coral reef"

the current incarnation of my plan for my system is to have a 75g reef drain into a 30g sump which will in turn drain into a 55g seagrass tank, then return to the 75. i think it could work well, and by linking different types of systems together, i believe that the need for additional filtration becomes less as more of the processes are allowed to balance themselves naturally.

HTH

Halo, your tank is very beautiful. thanks for sharing it with us.

sayn3ver
09/29/2007, 11:15 PM
any update on this tank. I have so many questions.

Filtration being one of them.

yrema
10/01/2007, 10:21 PM
sweeeet setup, halo. and natural sunlight at that. :) i'm jealous.

StunnaShadez
10/04/2007, 11:24 PM
one of the nicest looking tank i've seen so far

sayn3ver
10/05/2007, 12:49 PM
I know, this is a very successful and inspirational tank. I have many questions but afraid they don't post on here any longer.

mujacko2002
11/01/2007, 03:49 PM
updates pls

mujacko2002
11/01/2007, 04:05 PM
actually, i am planning to set-up a 75 gallon macro-algae with seagrass setup but i am taken aback with this very expensive lighting. Anyway, i hope you stay in the path of macros and seagrass because your tank is an inspiration to all of us planted aquarium fanatics.

shikhyung
12/09/2007, 10:13 AM
very interesting. I wonder where you guys colllect those macro algea, never seen it at LFS. Shin.

johnmaloney
12/12/2007, 08:27 PM
Thats the sweet stuff

cdckjn
11/22/2009, 11:31 PM
Hi, any updates on your tank so far?

cmpenney
12/13/2009, 04:31 PM
Does anyone know of a good place to purchase Halophila engelmannii?

I'm setting up a tank right and was originally going to go with T. Testindium but I've changed my mine now and am going to go with Halophila now. I'm having a heck of a time find a source though.

polaravic
12/17/2009, 10:43 PM
[QUOTE=halophila;5218055]Hi all, this is my new 4' shallow tank dedicated to

Hi Halophila,

Your tank is what I am trying to accomplish. I noticed you do not use 'marine mud' I was told I needed this for the 'grass' to survive. It is growing very slowly - seems to be struggling. I am using two 10 watt plant bulbs I bought from a hydroponics store which is more than adequate for most macroalgae except Halamida (which grows rampantly in my main tank - I have even made a bit of money selling it to aquarium stores)

Polarvic (just joined Reef Central)

graveyardworm
12/18/2009, 08:47 AM
<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>
Polaravic

You dont need marine mud necessarily. What you do need is a mature sand bed, and plenty of light. The 10 watt bulbs are no way enough for seagrasses. Since the majority of nutrients in seagrasses are taken up by the roots directly som people have experimented with injecting nutrients and even iron directly into the bed. Not something I would recommend until you have a better handle on keeping reef tanks in general.

If you look at a mature seagrass bed in the ocean you'll see all the leaf litter that collects within the bed. Not to mention all the sand bed infauna helping to transport those nutrients to the roots.

What kind of seagrasses are you trying to keep?

Alaska_Phil
12/18/2009, 01:51 PM
I've had a planted freshwater aquarium longer than I've had a reef. and the rule of thumb for freshwater plants is a minimum of 2 watts of fluorescent per gal, and no more than about 5. I would assume that a similar level would be needed for marine plants.

Phil

graveyardworm
12/18/2009, 04:00 PM
Most seagrasses come from very shallow water, and can be subject to more intense light than corals.

Freshwater planted tanks that I've seen have IMO very low light. the water freshwater plants grow in tends to be much more murky than seagrass beds.

50 watts of flourescent over a 10g tank to keep seagrasses as an example is going to result in very slow growth and perhaps even death. In regard to reefkeeping throw the light watts per gallon out the window. Its all about PAR and how well you can push the PAR into the depth of the tank. Flourescent lighting aside from T5 and to some degree VHO is generally very low in PAR and doesnt have any push to get that down to the bottom.

Keep in mind that most seagrasses are going to require some water depth for them to grow.

If you havent seen it yet here's some reading.

Beyond the Refugium: Seagrass Aquaria (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/sl/index.php)

and http://www.chucksaddiction.com/zone1.html

Plantbrain
12/18/2009, 05:59 PM
I was able to easily grow any seagrass at 200 micrmols at the tops.
450 at the surface using PC lights, a pair of 65 W over a 25 Gallon tank was plenty for any species, this is about 75% less than full sun. 10% at the top/tips.

I would suggest that this is much less than many coral growers use for cultivation.

Temp, Alkalinity, Ca. NO3 etc stability are larger factors.
I do not think muds are bad or good, depends more on the mineralization occurred and the % organic matter. Most old mature dirty sands should do and water column uptake can be done fairly easily. Too much organic matter, too much NH4 or PO4(well, up to about 0.4ppm or so) and you can get the dreaded diatom bloom. I stick with 5-10ppm of NO3.


I disagree with the Freshwater comments, this is neither true for Marine or Fresh systems, they vary. I've gone out to Pigeon Key and it was less than 20cm secchi depth, other days, likely 20 meters.........this was in the same week. It really depends, and the season etc. Plants and algae are fairly adaptable IME/IMO to lighting.

Rainbow springs has a freshwater range of 80 meters of visibility.
This is all year and for the last 500 + years. Pupu springs in NZ has some of clearest water in the world(so they claim). These systems vary marketedly and can be covered by algae and marl deposits which reduces the light coming in to the plants by an order of magnitude, self shading is also a large player. Unless you account for the other potentially dependent variables, light is rarely the only dependent variable in culture. Few can set up control references, let alone grow these plants well.

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

So you have to challenge your own perceptions/prejudices and see if they are indeed true. Many things are not what they seem, this is aquaculture and horticulture, it is NOT Nature. Nor does it imply that nature is "best" for culture.

Give that some good thought before thinking that research from the field is really what is best for aquarium management and culture. Lab results are not the same as field test, and the reverse is also true and applicable here: nor are field test/measurements the same as lab test.

Gotta try it and see. Even that does not mean too much if you fail.
Maybe you messed up something or overlooked something? Many do.

It's the successes that are the references for aquarist.
Then you test and look at those systems.

Failures? You keep trying different things you think might help until you get a success. Nothing wrong with starting with natural systems for a model either if that's all you have(most of us do), but be very careful on the meaningfulness of that.

Regards,
Tom Barr

3D-Reef
12/18/2009, 06:49 PM
In the field,this study says...."the actual amount of light reaching the seagrass depth target of 1.7 m relative to the preliminary light requirement of 25% of surface light." (based on Morris et al.2002)
http://www.tbeptech.org/SeagrassProceedgs/d-IndianRiverLagoon/069virnstein1.pdf

In the field and the lab,this study says that...."the present tank and field studies as well as previous ones (Dawes et al.1997) indicate that transplants should be exposed to at least 200 M photons m2 s1 or more of sun or artifical light using a 12 hr photoperiod."
http://www.tbeptech.org/SeagrassProceedgs/f-EmergingIssues/185dawes.pdf

Plantbrain
12/19/2009, 04:53 PM
In the field,this study says...."the actual amount of light reaching the seagrass depth target of 1.7 m relative to the preliminary light requirement of 25% of surface light." (based on Morris et al.2002)
http://www.tbeptech.org/SeagrassProceedgs/d-IndianRiverLagoon/069virnstein1.pdf

In the field and the lab,this study says that...."the present tank and field studies as well as previous ones (Dawes et al.1997) indicate that transplants should be exposed to at least 200 M photons m2 s1 or more of sun or artifical light using a 12 hr photoperiod."
http://www.tbeptech.org/SeagrassProceedgs/f-EmergingIssues/185dawes.pdf

I see little/no comment on pH/Alkalinity/Calcium, a dinky little Whisper filter......not sure what is in the root tabs, does not say in the paper, nor tissue analysis for N and P in the tissue.

I d not think they can say what the optimal horticultural light is for this plant independent of other confounding factors.

What parameters should be in the sediments? % organic matter? Redox levels?

I went through some of the methods, but.........I'm left with a lot doubt we can say much about what is the optimal light for growth rates(where adding more light produces no more added growth), the LCP (Light compensation point) for this plants, specific to this species.

Nice study and good goals, but I do not think it answers our questions.
Maybe they needed to use more organic matter, do more frequent water changes, adjust Ca, Alk, etc.

Light is just one factor in plant growth, location of nutrients is yet another and their concetrations are yet another, then the entire CO2/HCO3 balance is a huge issue.

As you increase light, the demand rates for the Carbon and nutrients goes up as well. I do not see where that was accounted for anywhere or in any paper on seagrasses to date. Does anyone know of one paper that addresses that?

I know of several that do for freshwater macrophytes:

http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/58/6/761

Figure 6 is what you need for the seagrasses to make much comment.
If some other factor is limiting light gathering by seagrasses, then they will have to divert more allocation to that, than getting higher light use efficacy.

These other factors have clear dependence on light use.
I do not think the paper cited for seagrasses really gets at that issue.

You can measure what is out in nature all day, but it does not answer what is best for a given goal independently in aquariums for management.

Sans Jensen does it here:
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/94/m094p091.pdf

Here is a different species, but a much lower LCP.

another decent paper:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=-krKb0CP-oQC&oi=fnd&pg=PA49&dq=Thalassia+light+compensation+point+aquarium&ots=1LODWcaVD_&sig=D5JEEoX6EihbBTRfGR1ySJjnTvQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=l236482282317m84&size=largest

These are more appropriate applied papers I think.
Try using LCP, LS, redox and other key word searches, I think you will fine more fruit for use in aquariums and hopefully get some good ideas about what light intensity ranges you need.

200? I just got lucky as it's fairly high.
But......seagrasses have far less CO2 than many FW systems, but plenty of HCO3. Still, most every plant I know, will prefer CO2 over HCO3 and if you enriched the system with CO2, you would expect large increases in growth rates.

For freshwater species, this is roughly 10-20X, or 1000-2000% more growth.
That changes the allocation of light gathering resources and the ability to use much less light as a result. Plant is basically not busy using resources/energy getting Carbon, so it can divert more to light gathering. We can also add nutrients and their location/s to this model.

Now you have put all 3 main variables together.
If the CO2/nutrients are non limiting and stable, then you have independence for the light. I've not used CO2 gas for Seagrasses....yet.
I did not find that it really helped with Macro algae.

Grasses? Perhaps.

Worth a try.

I think once CO2/HCO3 issues are addressed, and nutrients both in the water column and the sediments, then we can really look at light for aquarium seagrass much better.

200 micromoles seems like as good a starting point as any based on experience and research in aquarium cultures.

We have a lot of work ahead:o

Dang, I hate that.

Regards,
Tom Barr

3D-Reef
12/20/2009, 10:32 AM
Thanks for the links,Tom!

In this study they find that the lenth of time,or the amount of light,needed for photosynthesis is reduced with C02 inrichment.http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/115/2/599

IME I have a mix of 3,40w NO,2-65w PC's,and MH lighting over My fuge.Under the NO and PC lighting,the grasses grow slow and sparce,however,directly under the 175w Mh there is a definite difference.The grass shows more biomass,in leaf length and shoot density,with the only difference being the light it receives.

In another study at LSI it was mentioned that .5% of organics in the sediment was considered a little low.A starting point?My research was to find out more about the composition of sediments.What I found is that iron was the most limiting factor in caco3 sediments,increasingly so with the higher amounts of organics.As organics build up,the bacteria were limited by the amount of iron.When iron (FeIII) was introduced/injected into the sediments,the bacteria used the oxygen,reduceing sulfide production,and increased release of DIN and DIP for use by the plants/primary producers.

How does a hobbiest,without a lux meter,go about figuring out what 200 micrimoles would be over their tank?

graveyardworm
12/20/2009, 10:52 AM
I can say that I have kept seagrasses under overdriven 40w flourescent daylight spectrum tubes. I have no idea though what wattage they were pushed to. Nor do I know how much light was reaching the grasses. I do still have the fixture ( DIY ) and could replace the bulbs and do some light tests over the same tank. I now have access to a PAR meter as well as a LUX meter. I have done some experimentation with introducing nutrients to the substrate, but without any real documentation other than an observation that it didnt appreciably increase growth. The best growth that I have seen to date was under 175w MH 10k bulb with the tank set up skimmerless, and no supplemention of nutrients Ca, Alk, Fe, NO3, and so on aside from occasional water changes. There were a couple fish in there getting fed regularly. Unfortunately I wasnt doing water tests of any sort to be able to provide any useful info. :o

flying_dutchman
01/24/2010, 05:47 PM
Does anyone know if this tank is still up and running? Would a window tank in SF be a possibility?

Plantbrain
01/25/2010, 12:35 AM
Does anyone know if this tank is still up and running? Would a window tank in SF be a possibility?

MBA grows Zostera in natural light, you can see it at the tops of the kelp forest displays and other displays they have. Much below about 6-8ft, it will not grow. The other tropical species can likely do fine with less.

SF is not much different, but it would need to be a south facing window and get full sun daily.

Realize that this species at MBA does get all the nutrients via the water column, since the rocks do not offer much nutrients:lmao: SF seawater is pretty rich in upwelling nutrients, which is why we have awesome kelp beds.

All aquatic plants, Fw and marine can and do take the nutrients up via the water column, some can do roots as well, sometimes a lot, but all are opportunistic.

So both locations need to be focused on, good CO2/KH, currents, light.

Regards,
Tom Barr

davebar
08/25/2012, 06:55 AM
I am wanting to do Shoal Grass and turtle grass, what substrate is best for this?

mproia
08/27/2012, 07:01 AM
I am wanting to do Shoal Grass and turtle grass, what substrate is best for this?


Hi Davebar,

I am looking to do a tank of just shoal grass. I will be using a mixture of mineral mud and Caribsea Arag-Alive Bahamas Oolite sand topped off with just a layer of the Oolite. Total depth with be 4-5" I have read that freshwater plant fertilizer tablets can be broken in half and pushed into the sand by the roots of the plants for nutirents. What I am struggling with now is what kind of lighting to use. The total depth of the water column will 8 inches at its maximum. Have you decided on your lighting as of yet?

Regards,

Mproia

Gregory King
09/04/2012, 05:07 AM
Good day everyone,

I am currently doing research on Halophila ovalis in Japan, and after seeings some of your photos I was really impressed.

My problem as of the moment, is trying to grow Halophila ovalis in the lab. My main source as of now are frozen halophila sent by plane (from Okinawa) (since the lab is located far away from the sea). I've been trying to grow them for quite sometime now, but have yet to succeed. Is it impossible to grow frozen samples of Halophila? or are there some problems with my conditions (I'll list them up below):

Grown in an Incubator:
Light (16 hours) (2000lux) Dark (8 hours)
grown in 1L glass bottles without cap
Total volume of sea water (natural seawater) is 300mL
Temperature: controlled at 25 ºC

Nutrients:
Potassium Nitrate: 17 ppm
Potassium Phosphate: 7 ppm
CO2 is supplied via a gas tank

Add reverse osmosis water regularly as a water change (to 300mL)

I've grown freshwater plants before as a hobby, but am quite new to growing marine plants, any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks a lot

Forrest3320
09/06/2012, 03:36 PM
Tank looks great

mproia
09/10/2012, 08:01 PM
Good day everyone,

I am currently doing research on Halophila ovalis in Japan, and after seeings some of your photos I was really impressed.

My problem as of the moment, is trying to grow Halophila ovalis in the lab. My main source as of now are frozen halophila sent by plane (from Okinawa) (since the lab is located far away from the sea). I've been trying to grow them for quite sometime now, but have yet to succeed. Is it impossible to grow frozen samples of Halophila? or are there some problems with my conditions (I'll list them up below):

Grown in an Incubator:
Light (16 hours) (2000lux) Dark (8 hours)
grown in 1L glass bottles without cap
Total volume of sea water (natural seawater) is 300mL
Temperature: controlled at 25 ºC

Nutrients:
Potassium Nitrate: 17 ppm
Potassium Phosphate: 7 ppm
CO2 is supplied via a gas tank

Add reverse osmosis water regularly as a water change (to 300mL)

I've grown freshwater plants before as a hobby, but am quite new to growing marine plants, any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks a lot


Hi Gregory,

I would think that freezing the plants for transport may be the problem here. I am not 100% sure of plant tissues but I know for other cell types that freezing causes disruption of the cell membranes. Unless glycerol or another cryoprotective agent is added to the buffer that the cells are frozen in the cells are destroyed. Is there anyway they can ship the plants to you overnight or use two day shipping and not freeze your plants? From what I hear this is the normal shipping times of seagrasses and they seem to do fine.

Regards,

mproia