DI water only [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

WIKI2ECHO

07/07/2005, 11:40 AM

I too am sorry that I did not hear this talk by Mr Calfo. I work in a Research facility that generates 1000's of gallons of DI (18 megohm) water a week and that is after it passes through RO units. I dont have the exact numbers right now, but I am always being told how "expensive" DI water is to generate. It is NOT a (low) production cost item.
Secondly I cant imagine that we want to start storing and handling Muriatic Acid and Sodium Hydroxide in our homes. Looking more like an accident waiting to happen. Just my opinion.
I started my reef exactly like proposed. DI only .using 2 and 3 inline mixed bed DI units. This was NOT CHEAP!! My TDS prior to the DI was about 200 - 220. I was lucky to get 50 - 55 gallons of DI water that measured below 15 TDS before I changed out the filter.
Yes we do waste a lot of water with RO .and the " zero waste thingy is very cool and conscientious " but be prepared to spend a lot of time and money with straight DI systems besides the "safety factor" ..........unless there is some new Hitech DI system that I have not seen yet.

Just some Thoughts......Good dialog!

Bill

leebca

07/07/2005, 11:45 AM

I too enjoyed your presentation (and show?) at IMAC, Anthony. :D

But the difficulty with DI is the quality. It is an admirable goal to want to use DI, but if the public water supply is such that the DI can't remove some of the offending ingredients, it is a frustrating and risky proposition to stick with DI.

My whole house is on a DI system with a salt recharging system. Added on to this is an RO unit which fills an 80gallon storage tank for my 'tank room.' I get a usual reading of 6 TDS from this water, no silicates, etc., etc.

The cost is about $10/500 gallons for the DI regenerator (the DI resin is guaranteed to me for a 'life time') and $100/15,000 gallons for the RO membrane. PLUS the wasted water.

The system is commercial and used by many of the electroplating firms others have posted about in this thread.

Although my city water is never in short supply (it is well water --- one of the worst in quality -- no rationing ever needed), it is about 15% the cost of the water in Los Angeles.

Although we should all be energy/conservation conscious, it's hard for everyone to enjoy driving around a Geo, when the 'Caddy' is only a bit more to operate, and safer. :cool:

WIKI2ECHO

07/07/2005, 12:09 PM

Lee:
If you dont mind me asking....what is the "system Cost " for this house sized unit.

Bill

Anthony Calfo

07/07/2005, 12:46 PM

Hmmm... I'm not sure what "expense" is being incurred by your industrial folks... but in my line of "work" dealing with huge freshwater, saltwater hatcheries/fisheries... running my own greenhouse (tens of thousands of gallons of water run through it)... I can say with real practical experience for having actually used and monitored DI systems that they are dirt cheap to operate and produce superb quality water.

I build a (coral-farming) business on it in fact (and a 3K gallon discus hatchery before it).

Lets be specific here:

A Kati Ani 5 (several pounds of resin) produced several thousands of gallons of water before needing to be recharged on the quality of my mains water. TDS on product water (no waste water) was single digits (always well under 10 ppm).

The cost to recharge it was 1/3 of a bottle each of Muriatic acid and Red Devil drain cleaner. Mere dollars per recharge.

For my GH (which fluxed 5-8K total gallons of water), I can't say that I ever spent over $30 per year on the acid and base to recharge my 2-column DI unit.

$30 per year!

No membranes to replace or fail.

And a resin that is nearly fully rechargeable and will not build up a "memory" to any significant degree in my lifetime.

The reticence to use DI is largely founded on unrealistic fears and from folks that have not actually used these units at home or have not seen fellow aquarists/fishrooms, fisheries use them so easily.

Muriatic acid is produced by the hundreds of thousands of gallons. Its in more home garages and basements than you might give a thought to (used for example to clean your tools).

Red Devil lye... come on! Its just drain cleaner. Is it dangerous? Sure. But so is extremely caustic Calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser). If you spill bleach or lye on your skin, it can burn you indeed. But if you inhale calcium hydroxide... you are(!) going tot he hospital.

So... along with pitching out DI and recharge chemicals, should we also throw out our Calcium hydroxide... and iodine... and jewelry cleaner... and gasoline from the shed...(you get my point)

On the danger scale... the acid and base chemicals for recharging DI are no worse (or less so) than many of the household chemicals you already have, or other reef additives.

And it is dirt cheap, easily neutralized and a fraction of the cost to operate compared to RO.

As for quality... again:

The majority of labs that I have studied or worked in are using DI (not RO). And it s not because it is cheaper to produce. Its for quality.

The real issue here is quality of the resin.

The resins used cheap hobby mixed bed deionizers versus industrial/commercial 2-column deionizers may be very(!) different.

Lets be sure we are comparing apples to apples here :p

WIKI2ECHO

07/07/2005, 01:56 PM

Mr. Calfo:
In a way you may be right. Our facility has a cost of about $35/$40 per 1000 gal of RO/DI. when you factor the cost of materials and the labor to manage and monitor this system. Pretty cheap if you can get a 1000 gal of Hi quality 18 MegOhm water for $40.
In our case, when you multiply that by 2 million gallons per month...............we are talking serious money.

As far as safety I accept your point about bleach and iodine and drain cleaners. I do use Kalk and believe me I am EXTREMELY cautious when handling (and Breathing) it. Kalk IS difficult to handle.

Many of the people on this board may find many of the maintaince requirements of a reef to be a tedious chore already. If we are to add regeneration of Anions and Cations , I guess that it must be done in large enough a system so as to reduce the amount of times required to do so in the course of a year. In my case I was using 10" canisters of mixed bed and therefore changing them out every 50 gallons was becoming just another maintenance chore besides the expense.

Regards,
Bill

Anthony Calfo

07/07/2005, 02:32 PM

spot on Bill :)

and very good point as well about the practical reality of reefkeeprs. Legitimately... many of us are already disinclined to even keep up with the (best case) daily cleaning of skimmer necks/cups for optimal skimming. With that and other necessary tasks... to add one more thing like DI recharge is indeed an inconvenience for some.

I just make the strong point above (and beyond) for those that are truly in need/desire for purified water. We have to pay to play, as they say.

Such folks will have to make the effort, and given to choose between frequent purging/backwashing of an RO membrane, the expense of its replacement and the somewhat variable quality of water produced (as the membrane ages and gets clogged before backwashing)... then the half dozen or so recharges per year at modest expense for DI with no placement costs is at least a wash on consideration. And really a better way IMO.

The other point not hammered on here is in regard to folks with really poor quality souce water. Such will be a burden on either RO or DI (more frequent backwashing/recharging). But DI always and only costs those few dollars per recharge... while frequent replacement of membranes for RO can be a staggering expense!

So for folks with really bad tap water... DI is a stronger candidate for its cheaper cost of ongoing operation.

FWIW

Anthony :)

leebca

07/07/2005, 05:03 PM

What's a guy to do?

All I could do is get four people to come in and advise me on what system to use to obtain the water quality I wanted. One supplier offers more than 100 different systems.

I asked for reports on what choices of water quality could I get. No DI system offered could obtain silicate, phosphate, and nitrate free water on a consistent basis from the well water. Even the company that only offered DI couldn't achieve it. They would promise an acidic water with no better than 10 TDS, with a dual resin system.

It could be a matter of the right resin, but the right resin isn't available in my neighborhood. :confused:

leebca

07/07/2005, 05:37 PM

WIKI2ECHO,

I don't mind.
The 'package' was this:
A year's supply of soaps (detergent, dish, hand)
10 gallon of new resin
Resin guaranteed for my life (anything goes wrong, they replace it n/c)
4 month supply of recharge salts
House is tied in to the resin (all water)
R/O is tied in to two sinks and fish room faucet and ice maker
Faucets/hardware and plumbing included (my plumbing required a person familiar with its type --- it is a new type of plastic piping)
5 stage R/O after the DI treatment
Dual commercial membrane rated total of 100g/day
Membranes guaranteed to last 15,000 gallons of RO (replaced for free if they don't make it) so they might go 20K?
80 gallon storage tank, connected
Shed built around the storage tank (I have to paint it)
Carbon filter after the storage tank
Storage tank cement platform on ground
Electronic control panel: Alert when more salt is needed; indicates how much salt is left; timer for when alerts should be given; manual recharge control, clock, battery backup, etc.)
Annual system check (they send technician out to test water, test system and verify it working properly, once per year as long as I own the system)
4 valve controls (I can divert RO waste water to lawn; use RO waste water to hose down drive or any outside use; use city water outside; or use DI water outside --- depending on valve settings)
System guaranteed as long as I own it (service/repair/replacement is n/c)
$3000 including $500 for the tank I wanted (or, $2500 plus the $500 tank)

I was pleased with their professionalism and timeliness. System was installed and working the first time, 6 calendar days from my go ahead. Financing available; credit cards; or cash. It took two people a 7-hour day to install it from knock on my door to pulling out of my drive.

Not cheap. But it is to me 'safe.' I don't worry about what quality I'm getting (though I check it routinely). What's most important to me is the installation and support. $$American labor$$. . .:D I know enough about mechanical--handyman things to know I can't/don't do it right!

Some quotes were higher, one was lower without the support.

Fastmarc

07/07/2005, 08:12 PM

Hi Anthony et al,
I haven't seen it mentioned previously (if it was, well :D ), but are there any concerns for tap water that may contain high levels of chlorine or chloramine or does these rechargeable system usually come with a activated carbon pre-filter?
Based on my experience with the Tapwater purifier, a rechargeable DI system would be great. The tapwater purifier would consistently produce water with 0 uS/cm conductivity with the only limitation being how much it would produce before it was exhausted based on it small size and your tap water quality.
RO/DI works great, but the waste was what prevented me from getting it for a long while and now that I have one, it bothers the hell out of me.:rolleye1:

Anthony Calfo

07/07/2005, 09:07 PM

hey, Marc! Cheers to Jamaica :)

Yes... the chlorine is no worry with DI systems as it is with some RO membranes.

Still... a good micron and carbon prefilter is a fab idea for RO or DI.

Lee... the problems you are having with finding the right DI resin is indeed that the salesmen you are chatting with are using/selling resins marketed/engineered for a different industry (potable water). As such... some things that can safely be admitted with potable drinking water may be completely undesirable,

I've bought several of the aforementioned German resin deionizers in the last 15 years... and my next one will likely be the same (even if I have to have it shipped from Germany) :) It's not that big of a deal :p

leebca

07/07/2005, 09:36 PM

You're more than likely correct, Anthony. Still I'm left with how/where to get the right resin; making sure it is the right resin; who will install it; and what it will take for maintenance. I'm open, except to the suggestion that I can install it myself. :D

Anthony Calfo

07/07/2005, 09:39 PM

overanalyzer

07/07/2005, 09:47 PM

what is wrong with this unit: http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=17840&cat=456&page=1

found it cheaper elsewhere .... $170

here is a better link on specs: http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/d200r.html

Anthony Calfo

07/07/2005, 10:17 PM

its a mixed bed resin which is the way some models/manufactuer's make it difficult for you to recharge/reuse the resin. There is a way to separate the resins... but its a bit complicated.

Kent also makes a rechargeable version:

http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/d200r.html

This is the style of DI being chatted about here.

Fastmarc

07/07/2005, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
hey, Marc! Cheers to Jamaica :)
Whew, just got missed by hurricane Dennis (the menace). Still getting the wind and rain as I type, so I needed that 'cheers' :)

overanalyzer, not a thing wrong with that unit. That seem like it could do the trick. Thanks for those links.
If only I had seen that before I bought my RO/DI.:rolleyes:
I have a few friends I could recommend it to though.

Anthony Calfo

07/07/2005, 10:29 PM

ah... very good to hear you are safe, Marc!

To all... do seek separate bed deionizers, rather than mixed bed. More economical in the long run. Not wasteful (throwing away resin)

Steven Pro

07/08/2005, 07:19 AM

Anthony,

I think you were hitting the vino a little too hard last night. All three of the above links took you to information about the same Kent Marine Deion 200-R rechargeable, separate resin deionizer.

Hobster

07/08/2005, 08:05 AM

:lol: Red or White??

Originally posted by Hobster
Kent Marine makes a 200gpd DI only unit which can be recharged.

http://www.championlighting.com/home.php?cat=456 :lol:

Hobster

07/08/2005, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by overanalyzer
what is wrong with this unit: http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=17840&cat=456&page=1

found it cheaper elsewhere .... $170

here is a better link on specs: http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/d200r.html

found it cheaper elsewhere .... $170

Where??

fishdr

07/08/2005, 11:35 AM

I just ordered one for 166.99 at http://www.aquariumplants.com/cgi-bin/cart/kent914.html

Hobster

07/08/2005, 12:34 PM

Thanks!
I am checking into seeing if I can just get the resins and convert my RO/DI to just DI. If not I am going to get one also.

Anthony Calfo

07/08/2005, 12:52 PM

oh, good grief :p

No vino... but answering queries like a madman before leaving for the seminar and frag workshop at That Fish Place this weekend. I still have almost 200 unanswered queries in my personal box. Never caught up since IMAC last weekend. Grrrr :p

Sorry to seem daft, my friends. I was just answering posts obviously without reading the threads. Doh! How helpful is that?!?

I'll stop/rest/go slower now :D

skuykend

07/08/2005, 01:17 PM

Anthony, I couldn't see in your posts what your TDS on the input water is that you use? Wouldn't that make a big difference in how long the DI will last?

Steve

Anthony Calfo

07/08/2005, 01:19 PM

very true... your water will fluctuate seasonally (if not more often) in TDS and in turn has an effect on the DI terms between recharges.

My source water is moderately hard... ranging from 160ppm at best to over 200ppm

leebca

07/08/2005, 07:20 PM

There are numerous free online translators (google). You could type an English inquiry and then send it to the German folks looking to buy a turnkey system.
I wonder too if they are available i the UK (seems likely). Easy then to chat with an Englishman and have one sent across the pond. Do be resourceful here my friend. The Internet is an amazing tool... google til you can't google no more

Now I'm confused. :confused: Was the above reply to me, Anthony? How did the UK get into it?

I've checked the Kent link. It's hype. I see no analysis. 99% of what contaminants? organic? microbial? ions? and what does it put into the water? How long will it last with incoming well water over 350 TDS?

When I searched for a local provider I asked and received their after treatment water analysis. None I found acceptable for my hobby.

You keep saying what great quality the DI water is Anthony but I can't find the analysis. I'd like to see: 1) the after treatment analysis; 2) what it doesn't remove; 3) its life with 350+ TDS going into it; and 4) what it sends/adds to the water when it removes the ions. Have you got links to that info?

My very hard water has silicates, sulfates, nitrates, and organics that I would be concerned about removing, in addition to the common water treatment chemicals.

I don't want to add 'reef safe' remedies and additives to my tanks that I don't know what's in them, or only by anecdotal testimonials. The same goes for the largest ingredient I use ==> water.

The real specs and facts are, I think, that which makes the move to DI determinable. Language like the Kent link uses: "purest water possible" is meaningless. I would also like to know the probability of channeling and when I know that one or both DI stages are not working, or spent without checking my water every gallon.

Fastmarc

07/08/2005, 09:14 PM

deleted.

Hobster

07/09/2005, 09:33 AM

leebca,

Perhaps you may want to discuss this with Randy over in the Chem forum. He is away for a few more days but you guys can
do the "talk Chem" thing.;) I know he has written some articles on the whole RO/DI thing. Just a thought.

leebca

07/09/2005, 09:48 AM

Thanks Hobster.

I don't want my post to 'sound' angry. Writing as a form of communication isn't always clear.

I'm not from Missouri but 'show me' is a fundamental part of my scientific background. :D I'll buy what analyses to be what I want.

overanalyzer

07/09/2005, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Hobster
Where??

google....

www.google.com

greatest thing since bottled beer..... it was a FW place - go a couple of pages in and there was one with reduced shipping....

Hobster

07/09/2005, 06:29 PM

OverAnalyzer,

Thanks so much for the link to Google.

As you had posted;

found it cheaper elsewhere .... $170

I just thought you might share where that was.

Fsdr posted the site

"I just ordered one for 166.99 at http://www.aquariumplants.com/cgi-bin/cart/kent914.html"

Mmaggicc2

07/10/2005, 05:31 PM

Am I correct in thinking that because there is no waste water that you don't need a storage tank? I gave up the idea of RO because of all the waste water so I'm very happy to hear that DI is a good alternative. Thanks !! Does anyone know the approximate dimensions of the Deion 200-R? I would like to install it in my laundry room. Also, is there only two connections..input and output ? Thanks again Mary

Anthony Calfo

07/11/2005, 12:01 AM

Lee...

the UK reference was with regard for you pursuing Aquatechnics via an English distributor. The UK most likely has english speaking (ahem) dealers of this German product (a neighboring country :D). The English adore Discus fishes, other cichlids and fishes requiring soft water/DI etc.

As for mfg specs... just because they are not posted on the website does not mean they are not available to you, mate. Are you saying that Kent and Aquatechnics refused you request for the info? I'm guessing you simply mean that you have not seen it published.

Aquatechnics (on their website which you can read by a Google earch and tagging the "translate this page" link with the hit) lists Kat/Ani as being able to produce 60l/hr of demineralized water measuring 1/10th of a degree of German hardness (or less). Extremely soft and demineralized water.

As for the actual assay of this unit with your personal tap water... I'm pretty sure they did not run that trial ;)

Just e-mail them, bro and ask for the info that they do have. Or... lament about not being enabled by the mfg, us, etc :p

My mfg specs that came with my purchased units (some years ago) are buried if not lost in my filing cabinets. I regret to say that I do not have the time in the near future to dig for them. I was just hoping that you'd take me at my word enough to want to simply e-mail the mfgs and get the factual specs yourself.

Steven Pro

07/11/2005, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by Mmaggicc2
Am I correct in thinking that because there is no waste water that you don't need a storage tank? I gave up the idea of RO because of all the waste water so I'm very happy to hear that DI is a good alternative. Thanks !! Does anyone know the approximate dimensions of the Deion 200-R? I would like to install it in my laundry room. Also, is there only two connections..input and output ? Thanks again Mary You still need somewhere to hold the water. I use a large Rubbermaid Brute plastic garbage can. My Kati-Ani will comfortably make 10 gallons per hour (which beats the pants off off mpst RO units), but is too slow to not store.

I don't know how big the Kent unit is, but I would bet it is about 18" long by 12" tall by 6" wide.

All DI units only have an input and output.

overanalyzer

07/11/2005, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Hobster
OverAnalyzer,

Thanks so much for the link to Google.

As you had posted;

I just thought you might share where that was.

Fsdr posted the site

"I just ordered one for 166.99 at http://www.aquariumplants.com/cgi-bin/cart/kent914.html"

Brace yourself - this works for all kinds of products and things....

go to google - type in the exact name of the unit and hit search..... surprisingly I check this board from several locations and don't bookmark every find - just good threads.

1/2 the stuff people ask about could be answered with a little thought and 5 more minutes of their time checking other resources.....

Your "where" post is almost as bad as "just tagging along" posts. Now - if you look and can't find anything - then ask! :rolleye1:

aiber

07/11/2005, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by overanalyzer
Brace yourself - this works for all kinds of products and things....

go to google - type in the exact name of the unit and hit search..... surprisingly I check this board from several locations and don't bookmark every find - just good threads.

1/2 the stuff people ask about could be answered with a little thought and 5 more minutes of their time checking other resources.....

Your "where" post is almost as bad as "just tagging along" posts. Now - if you look and can't find anything - then ask! :rolleye1:

Your sarcasm is not appreciated.

Your post was unclear and it does not make sense to write, "found it cheaper elsewhere .... $170" w/o saying where.

My 2 cents.
Albert

aiber

07/11/2005, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by StevenPro
You still need somewhere to hold the water. I use a large Rubbermaid Brute plastic garbage can. My Kati-Ani will comfortably make 10 gallons per hour (which beats the pants off off mpst RO units), but is too slow to not store.

I don't know how big the Kent unit is, but I would bet it is about 18" long by 12" tall by 6" wide.

All DI units only have an input and output.

Thank you for the info. Another thing I like about DI only is that you don't have to worry about draining all of the waste water out of your garage. That was my main concern with the RO/DI unit being installed in my garage.

All you need to do is have a storage tank with a float valve.

Albert

aiber

07/11/2005, 08:38 AM

I would like to know if anyone has tried to convert or its possible to convert an RO/DI unit to a DI only unit and How?

Thanks
Albert

Hobster

07/11/2005, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by aiber
I would like to know if anyone has tried to convert or its possible to convert an RO/DI unit to a DI only unit and How?

Thanks
Albert

Albert,
I am thinking of doing the same. I would imagine that you just by pass the RO membrane so the in flow of water just goes in the sediment filter, then the carbon and last the DI. I need to look at mine to trace the flow to be sure.
( I found a really great way to do it on line but I can not say where :D :lol: )

Mmaggicc2

07/11/2005, 06:16 PM

Thanks StevenPro !! I'm going to research the Kani - Ani Unit also. Mary

Steven Pro

07/11/2005, 07:40 PM

By the way, I still have not heard back yet from Aquatechnic. But, I expected it to be a while until I get a response because of the language barrier.

Anthony Calfo

07/11/2005, 08:06 PM

you may want to resend but paste your message in freetranslation.com (or the like) for a rough translation for them

fishdr

07/12/2005, 10:59 AM

why does it matter the brand of the DI unit?

As far as I understand, the unit just holds the DI resin, and it's the resin that does all the work? Is it the type of resin that comes with the kati ani device?

Does anybody have experience with the Kent DI unit, that can give a thumbs up or down on it?

Nanook

07/12/2005, 11:10 AM

I took interest in this method of water purification after a friend (capncapo) told me of this method that was being discussed here. I have extreme interest in learning about this type of purification to avoid wasting so much water, especially with over 1500 gallons (soon) of saltwater.

I haven't found any articles on the specifics of just how to regenerate the resins, ie: 1) Get a big tub, 2) Pour resin in tub, 3) do this do that. Also, as far as how much resin one would need for large amounts of water production is a mystery.

I think I can probably piece together a large unit for this type of filtration, might need to get someone to craft some acrylic since Dr Foster and Smith no longer sells the kati/ani. However, there have been several concerns here that have me doubting the effectiveness of this system, ie: 1) Short life of DI resins, 2) Channeling of water through resin, 3) Uncertain purified water at end-stage unless tested. With RODI, I haven't worried about my water, it has always been 0 TDS.

If there were some industry person or company that utilized this method, it would be cool if they could chime in here with specifics about getting started, where to buy materials and what their opinion is about the purified end product versus RODI.

Just a couple thoughts.

Dave

Anthony Calfo

07/12/2005, 11:29 AM

good points Dave, but unfounded (as in no worries) re: your DI concerns:

1) short life on resins: Hmmm... not sure what you mean here. Depends on perspective. In terms of total lifespan... they are regenerable without building up any significant kind of memory in our lifetime :p On that point... they blow RO membranes out of the water in terms of value/ongoing expense. With regard for time between recharges.. we could make the argument that it is similar to the need to backflsuh and RO membrane. Or... do consider that in exchange for the time spent recharging... you save many hundreds of dollars (lack of membrane replacement as with RO).

2) channeling of water through resin: a non-issue. The columns are build to avoid this. And regardless... it is less of a risk IMO than irregularities in RO membranes that inevitably occur allowing various things to breach.

3) uncertainty of purified water: hmmm... if you mean the degradation before the need to recharge, again... a non-issue. Its not uncertain or even in need of testing. The resins change color and slowly at that over time to indicate the gradual exhaustion of resins. The change in water quality is so slight that its a moot point.

And again... most folks that go to DI are willing to field the recharging duties in exchange for not wasting water or money (replacing membranes).

Plus... you can run tap water through a DI a lot faster than you can an RO. A small perk to not have to wait so long for purified water.

Steven Pro

07/12/2005, 12:12 PM

I have just a couple of things to add to Anthony points:

1.) My Kati-Ani 2 unit is about 8 years old now and still going strong.

2.) I have never had any channeling issues in that time either.

3.) The color change in the Kati-Ani is unmistakable, in contrast to the color changes I have seen in mixed resin bed DI units.

Hobster

07/12/2005, 02:35 PM

FWIW,

I sent a request to Spectrapure indicating that I would like to convert my RO/DI system to DI only with seperate resins. Here is their reply:

"What you are requesting is not recommended and in the long run most of the customers that have tried this eventually revert back to using the RO./DI combination. The water purity that is achieved from using tap water DI systems does not provide the purity required for most DI water uses but you are sure free to try it if you would like to although we will not be able to provide much in the way of assistance since it is not something that we would recommend.

The DI resins that are listed in our catalog are designed specifically for use in RO water and not recommended for tap water. "

Thank you for contacting SpectraPure Inc.
*************************************************
Their site states that the resins are used to replace in Kat Ani systems????????

Color-Indicating Strong Base Anion Resin

High operational capacity
Excellent silica removal
Color changes to show remaining capacity
Use to replace Ani resin in "Kati-Ani" DI Systems

:confused:

Anthony Calfo

07/12/2005, 03:03 PM

Spectra pure is in the principal business of selling RO membranes.

That was their first product line.

Only when DI units became popular did they get into the resin game to compete with others selling DI and/or RO

You should not be surprised to hear this reply :p

Hobster

07/12/2005, 08:34 PM

Well at first I was, as their resin specifically stated for "Kati-Ani" systems which made no sense that it was "not recomended for tap water and only RO water"
I now have seen the light:)
Thanks

eameres

07/13/2005, 02:45 PM

Does anyone have a feeling for how long a typical (e.g. kent or spectrapure) dual bed, non-mixed de-ionizer would go before a recharge (in gallons). I use a AquaPharmaceuticals tap water filter right now and would love to go a lot longer before either buying new cartridges or recharging. I have pretty good water, so I'd say I get about 100g or so out of one cartridge presently.

Eric.

robsmith32

07/16/2005, 11:29 PM

Ok, now one thing that hasn't been brought up about the DI here.
IN doing search for Chloramine removal.
There surprising lack of ability to remove this common chemical in our Tap water.
apparently the chloramine goes right through DI units, at least those they talked about.
Most municipalities in the USA use chloramines.
So far in my searching, the only thing that has come up to remove this, is to use a catalytic activated carbon, and most say to put this behind a another carbon block, as put carbon block into a catalytic granulated activated carbon.. (must be calgon push behind this since they make most carbons?) but this is by other manufactures stating this as well, such as GE. So has anyone tested chloramines/ammonia after these Kati/ani resins?

leebca

07/17/2005, 09:36 AM

My supplier originally cautioned me about this. It may be the type of resin choice? I don't know. But the resins offered in my area did not remove chloramine. This was considered a good thing for the drinking water, since it still 'protected' the user from the buildup of too many bacteria.

I still maintain (several posts ago), you need to know the ions the DI unit does and doesn't remove, to determine its value.

Hobster

07/17/2005, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by leebca
My supplier originally cautioned me about this. It may be the type of resin choice? I don't know. But the resins offered in my area did not remove chloramine. This was considered a good thing for the drinking water, since it still 'protected' the user from the buildup of too many bacteria.

I still maintain (several posts ago), you need to know the ions the DI unit does and doesn't remove, to determine its value.

This is also a question being discussed in this thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5329132#post5329132

I see now it has been asked in the Chem Forum so hopefully Randy can give us the low down.:) Clear the water if you will.:D

leebca

07/19/2005, 03:43 PM

Hobster,

Another (I think) more relevant discussion by Randy:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5345358#post5345358

I think Randy's article is clear. RO = the best. When should it be used? When the ions and neutral chemicals of your source water are not treatable by, reactive with, or missed by, DI systems.

His article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

I better know what to do, now. Thanks all! :cool:

Steven Pro

07/19/2005, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by leebca
Hobster,

Another (I think) more relevant discussion by Randy:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5345358#post5345358

I think Randy's article is clear. RO = the best. When should it be used? When the ions and neutral chemicals of your source water are not treatable by, reactive with, or missed by, DI systems.

His article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

I better know what to do, now. Thanks all! :cool: I read that discussion with Randy above. The problem is Randy is talking about mixed resin beds which require expensive replacement cartridges. That is not what a Kati-Ani system is. The recharging chemicals for my #2 system cost me less than $10/recharge and last for hundreds of gallons. Now, it does take longer for me to recharge my Kati-Ani than to replace the membrane and prefilters on a typical RO unit, but in Randy's words, "if there is a carbon and sediment filter before the DI, the only thing that will get through is very small particulate matter. Depending on what is in the water, that may be fine. It will take out most things that I would be concerned about."

Hobster

07/20/2005, 08:36 AM

Steven,

That is how I took Randys explaination also. (buying new resins)

What I am interested in trying is getting a regular mixed bed resin and separating the 2 resins, as per the old Tap water filter instructions. Buying the resins separate is much more expensive. If I can get them apart, I will put them in individual cartridges.
I plan on having a sediment, 5 micron and 1 micron carbon filter before the 2 Di's.Our city water produced by one of the largest RO plants in the country so it is pretty good to begin with.

sfsuphysics

07/20/2005, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by StevenPro
[B] The recharging chemicals for my #2 system cost me less than $10/recharge and last for hundreds of gallons.

And this is cheaper than using RO/DI water?

Now it seems to me that assuming it is cheaper, which the numbers don't seem to support, the DI only water does let more through than an RO/DI combo, and remembering something Anthony has said before (regarding carbon use inthe aquarium) do you really want to be cheap on a vital part of your aquarium health when the savings isn't really that much? Now true for large greenhouses or other applications where you are going through thousands of gallons of water on a regular basis and need water in a rapid fashion seems using DI water would be much more benificial.

One thing I would be curious to see is you did a "refit" on an existing RO/DI system by removing the membrane but leaving in the prefilters (in my case a sediment filter & 2 carbon filters) then just put the two separate resins after, and see what the end result is and compare that to RO/Di water output.

leebca

07/20/2005, 08:33 PM

Steven,

But you (and some others) are ignoring an important issue -- the quality of the source water.

The DI units, no matter how good, will deplete quicker with a high TDS source water, which = my case. The DI units remove ions. If it isn't ionized, it goes through. And finally, DI puts/adds something to the water. All three factors have to be accounted for, before a rationale decision is made.

Using over 40 gallons per day, I'm not messing with DI if it can't be cheaper and less troublesome AND removes what I need out of the water, than the RO

It's a bigger picture issue that doesn't have a 'one size fits all' solution. :)

sfsuphysics

07/22/2005, 09:05 AM

40 gallons a day?? good lord! What are you doing with that, is it all evaporation?

leebca

07/22/2005, 12:25 PM

I do 15% water changes per week.

I have a 300 gallon and 180 gallon display. I have a 70 gallon refugium. I have a 100 gallon sump. I have a 100 gallon quarantine tank (including sump). I rinse my labware, test kits, etc. with the water. I love ice in my drinks (it's hooked up to my ice maker). It is also my drinking/cooking water. I make my own additives with it. I sell 10-15 gallons a day to neighbors who can't stand their water and have aquariums, or just want decent drinking/cooking water. I use about 4-5 gallons a day for evaporation.

leebca

07/22/2005, 03:43 PM

So. . .

Wouldn't a zero waste RO unit be less expensive of all the systems?

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=10034720&whse=&topnav=&cat=&s=1

Anyone have experience with the above?

Anthony Calfo

07/22/2005, 05:32 PM

so where again exactly does the bypassed water of a "zero-waste" system go, again?

And what happens if the household does not use all of the bypassed water (hot water tank, laundry, etc) as when making batches of water for water changes, filling up new tanks, etc (hundreds of gallons of excess).

You do understand the principal of RO here? Its a membrane... the water that passes through it is low in TDS, the water that does not (reject or bypass) carries away much of the rejected matter (hence the hardened, multiple gallons of "waste" water)

Or am I missing something here? Do the zero-waste units no longer have membranes? :p

And if you mix a batch of 40 gallons of water for a water change... and 160 gallons of bypassed water make it to the washing machine or hot water heater... what happens to that water if you don't use it all in one day?

A better question... where exactly is all of that waste water being held on demand ?

Somebody please enlighten me. I'm sure I'm missing something about this "zero-waste" unit.

leebca

07/22/2005, 05:39 PM

Anthony,

I assume your questions were not directed at myself. I'm asking for info on it too.

Why are you willing to believe the Kent DI post that no water can be better, but not this post? It clearly says there is no wasted water. The person I heard about it from isn't using any waste water. There is none. I'm trying to get the tech specs on it or to learn more about it. Is it magic?

Someone is thinking outside the box or it's all in advertising. :D

capncapo

07/22/2005, 06:06 PM

Anthony,

I am interested in trying the DI only route but have a few questions before I commit the money and time. My citys' tap water is fairly good so I'm not overly concerned about having a high TDS to start with.

Is there a "Beginners / Idiots Guide to DI" book or similar reference avalable for those of us who are in the dark on this subject? A comprehensive discussion of the subject would be great but if that's not available, a list of FAQs would help. I have googled looking for anything that I can find but other than large scale, commercial systems there is very little out there. Would there be any copies ( or even a synopsis ) of your presentaton at IMAC available for us to read and hopefully get "jump started"?

I have also seen mentioned that German resins should be used and would like the reasoning behind that. I'm sure that they would cost appreciably more and therefore make moving to DI a bit more expensive but if they are more desirable, I would be willing to go the extra expense. I guess what I want to know is are the German resins better than the resins available in the US and if so could you explain how they are better / why we would want to use them instead?

I have googled myself silly and can only find references to companies that will perform regeneration services for me. Needless to say, I'm sure that it would not be nearly as cost-effective as me doing it myself. I have read about the lye and acid and can get these items with no problem but am wondering what to do after I get them ( ie. How to use them ). The exact processes are what I need to know as they will help me to determine whether this is something I want to / should attempt. I'm by no means a chemist so the reactions that are taking place are not important to me but the steps taken and equipment needed to perform these reactions are. Can you describe the procedures and equipment required to regenerate the CAT and ANI resins?

Your help is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

leebca

07/22/2005, 06:33 PM

It's a ruse!

Here's the scoop on that link above. . .Gotten from another thread:
it pumps the waste water into the hot water line. literally zero waste water!with the zero waste unit at just over $300 with tax and shipping for a 25gpd...it would take a very long time to make up the money in saving waste water when buying a cheaper more power unit. I bought it because I would rather conserve mother natures resources rather than waste it.

Oh well! So much for advertising. :D

Steven Pro

07/22/2005, 07:26 PM

capncapo,
Here is an FAQ file on the Kati-Ani for starters http://www.wetwebmedia.com/katianidifaqs.htm

Steven Pro

07/22/2005, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by leebca
It's a ruse!

Here's the scoop on that link above. . .Gotten from another thread:

Oh well! So much for advertising. :D Well, at least the water is going somewhere, but I can't understand the logic in pumping it into your hot water line. I can see it now. My wife gets a jolt of cold water in the shower because I am making water for my fish tanks. :D

overanalyzer

07/22/2005, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by capncapo

I have also seen mentioned that German resins should be used and would like the reasoning behind that. I'm sure that they would cost appreciably more and therefore make moving to DI a bit more expensive but if they are more desirable, I would be willing to go the extra expense. I guess what I want to know is are the German resins better than the resins available in the US and if so could you explain how they are better / why we would want to use them instead?

I have googled myself silly

Hmm I was just thinking I'd use the rechargeable resins that came with the unit that was posted earlier. I have seen a few sites where you can buy resin but I think it is in massive quanties... I think the reference to the german company was because people could not find a rechargeable DI only unit here The Kent deion 200-r though fits the bill.

Is the quality of resins a factor in length of life or quality of filtration - or both??

If you can lay your hands on the recharging chemicals then I believe that the resins will last for a long time.

The unit description is here: http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/d200r.html

or google "deion 200-r" and look for the freshwater supply store (I believe)

overanalyzer

07/22/2005, 07:57 PM

for those who are googlely challenged: http://aquariumplant.com/cgi-bin/cart/kent914.html

166.99

leebca

07/22/2005, 09:08 PM

The water heater thing works, if you have a heater that is a storage tank sort of thing. If the water is heated 'on demand' I can't see the waste water being of much use to that system. :D

merlock116

07/22/2005, 11:11 PM

everybody interested in setting up a DI only system can also check out their local water purification company. Look under water purification in the yahoo yellow pages for your zip code.

when i bought bulk mixed bed resin (half a cubic foot) for my RODI from a local place, they had to scramble to find such little quantity of resin. Apparently they deal with MUCH larger quantities.

I got a quick tour of the facility and what they deal in. It's similar to exchanging CO2 for your calcium reactor except on a larger scale. You get this giant (5 foot tall) canister of freshly regenerated resin that will make a few thousand gallons of water. And when it's exhausted, you bring it back in and exchange it for a fresh one (or you can have them deliver).

IIRC the cost per gallon was much less than a consumer RODI that most of us use... though you would need a much bigger system than mine to get that convenience.

Hobster

07/24/2005, 05:20 PM

One can check here for mass quanities of resins. Maybe a group buy?

http://www.resindepot.com/shopdisplaycategories.asp?id=21&cat=Filter+Media

sfsuphysics

07/24/2005, 05:46 PM

it pumps the waste water into the hot water line. literally zero waste water!with the zero waste unit at just over $300 with tax and shipping for a 25gpd...it would take a very long time to make up the money in saving waste water when buying a cheaper more power unit. I bought it because I would rather conserve mother natures resources rather than waste it.

Ummm yah I'll skip on this and happily "waste" water. Here 740+ gallons of water (what the water dept calls 1 unit) cost something like $3-4 and that's with the sewage cost too! So that's about 150gallons worth of RO/DI water.

Anthony Calfo

07/24/2005, 08:19 PM

sweet link Hobster... danke :)

I hope this pans out well (hobby useful/affordable resins)

Anthony Calfo

07/25/2005, 09:06 PM

an interesting comment:

from the (IMO) highly reputable company Seachem (that employs chemists and does good R&D unlike many reef product mfgs)

... they state in tests kits like their iodine test kit:

"... fill empty plastic vial to thread level with deionized (DI) or distilled water (not supplied)... (RO) water may not(!)[sic] be sufficiently pure;"

This is coming from one of the oldest manufacturers of reef products in the nation... selling chemicals and reagents no less... and not(!) selling RO or DI units BTW ;)

It proves nothing, but says a lot.

leebca

07/25/2005, 09:10 PM

It wouldn't be the first time Seachem has made an incorrect statement. :D It depends on what the interferring substances are. It could be that ions the size of water molecules or less might interfere with the test. I wouldn't use an RO without a DI. THAT would be a signficant waste where my source water TDS is 350+!

Anthony Calfo

07/25/2005, 09:26 PM

it would be nice to hear your qualifying statement about their incorrect info, Lee. I'm hoping you aren't just taking a cheap shot because you like RO and want to waste a limited resource.

And... your opinion on how much good information Seachem put's out relative to bad... and relative to their competition, would be welcome. Or again... did you just want to make a grumpy comment?

Unlike their competitors... I don't see mudslinging campaigns initiated... they don't threaten to sue new companies into poverty and steal their ideas/products... they don't slip sugar or pear/apple-juice in bottles to stimulate/irritate coral polyps and trick you into believing their reef supplements are magic...they do not fill their plankton bottles with 98% water... no borax in a bottle to kill aiptasia, etc.

I guess what I'm really asking you Lee, relative to Seachem alone, is do you think they overwhelmingly serve the greater good?

Or are you not qualified enough (experience) with their product line to make that statement... or the comment about incorrect statements issued by them?

While we are at it... are you stating for the record that it was misinformation... or incorrect? Fraud or an accident?

leebca

07/25/2005, 10:02 PM

because you like RO and want to waste a limited resource. and that isn't a cheap shot? :rolleyes:

Seachem produced a lot of bad copper medication. Some threads here talk about it. They first denied it, then acknowledged it.

I don't like RO -- I need it for my purposes. So far I've not seen a suitable replacement. There is a place and time for everything under the Sun. I assume you don't drive a car to save gas and the environment?

Seachem has to sell, like you do. They make a few products that are often either not needed or of little value (like Paragard eradicating Cryptocaryon irritans; and trace additives, for examples). But for the most part they are a reliable source of medications and reef additives. Compared to some of their competitors, they are a cut above them. I wouldn't even consider an organization like Kent in their league.

My 4 years work at OSU studying Cryptocaryon irritans, treatments, garlic, and dips, plus keeping abreast of current studies, does put me in an experienced, qualified position to evaluate their statements regarding this disease organism. Owning a marine aquarium fish store makes me very familiar with their product line (both the valuable and not-so-valuable).

But, Seachem Anthony is not infallible. No organization is, because they are people and people basically are not infallible. I've responded to threads where Seachem has made statements regarding Marine Ich that doesn't match what studies have shown. On purpose? A mistake? I don't know. I don't consider them to be malicious, more like misguided.

Regarding Seachem not selling RO/DI. You'd might want to check out their site. They sell both. It is their Pinnacle brand. In fact they recommend the use of RO/DI when the source water is of poor quality (like mine). Oops! Looks like you're not infallible either. :D

I don't know of any organization that serves the greater good when their stockholders demand a higher return than bank interest on their investments. Do you? I think their products are generally a cut above the rest, but serving the greater good? Not. They serve their stockholders.

But. . .do you want this to be a Seachem thread? Cheap shot thread? or a thread on water?

Anthony Calfo

07/25/2005, 11:05 PM

commenting and answering your questions in sequence, Lee:

-- "and that isn't a cheap shot?"

yes... it was. One good turn, as they say. You crying foul is about as ironic as the second man in a hockey fight getting penalized :D

Both of us are answering queries late tonight and at least one of us is tired/less patient. Speaking for myself, that is.

-- "I assume you don't drive a car to save gas and the environment?"

In fact... I have driven less than 3K miles annually for over ten years now. In large part because I make a concerted effort to live as gently on this planet as possible.

I carpool when I can... mailorder and then recyle the boxes... I save the plastic bags I get form local merchants and bring them (with food donations) to the local food pantry... I save all mail and envelopes with unprinted sides or blank spaces for use in taking notes... leave the caps off of bottles that cannot be recylced so they collapse and take up less space in land fills, and recycle all other bottles/materials that I can... etc.

heehee... I could go on for quite a while here. But, point is that I do practice what I preach. I am considerate of all my actions, and respond to inefficiencies pointed out to me :D

With that said... can we agree to both pass on making jabs in future posts, now? At least for this thread.

-- "Seachem has to sell, like you do."

actually... I don't "sell" as it is/would be commonly defined. The staggering majority of my considerable time spent on this hobby we both love so much... is volunteer. The majority of my articles are given freely and reprinted/shared freely. As are my images (with permissiongranted/photo credits given). Re: my book writing... guess what? We spent just under 100K to produce the first two pressings of "Reef Invertebrates" and my total return to date has been... $5K

if you add up the 2 years it took to write it... the 2 years since spent promoting the information to hobbyists, etc... and divide that into $5K, I'm wondering if who would consider that profitable?

Not a lot of people would float that kind of cash and wait that long for such a small return.

You can fault me for vanity... desirous of pride in accomplishment, etc... etc., but a sales analogy does not stick here.

I'm answering queries and sharing opinions with other folks for the exact same price you paid me ;)

I do appreciate your recognition of a good organization like Seachem above other less illustrious competitors. And... indeed, I appreciate the fact that they too have failed or flawed products.

I just regret to see unchecked criticisms of otherwise quality merchants/businesses. Too many uninformed people take what they read on the Internet as fact or endorsement.

-- "Oops! Looks like you're not infallible either. "

Yikes! Quite so. My bad/apologies! :D

Yet it still supports my argument that they favor DI. They sell RO as well as DI yet make it clear that they recommend DI over RO. And they do not specify that they are talking about their brand units (as mfgs will commonly do in such product literature)... but rather they are speaking generically. A reader like myself can presume that they mean that most or enough RO units used by hobbyists are inferior to DI to even make the statement.

It is the very crux of my point all along.

-- "But. . .do you want this to be a Seachem thread? Cheap shot thread? or a thread on water"

I would like it to be productive and polite above all. In continuing the thread, my post above cited a specific, reputable company... and a specific product that anyone could verify.

Your statement was a vague and unqualified remark about a mfg that I took umbrage with. It did not seem productive at least, and was unfair at worst IMO.

No more... no less. :)

leebca

07/26/2005, 11:44 AM

Your post surprised me (pleasantly). I am not in a pi$$ing match here as I think you know. The written word can give false impressions of the attitude of the writer. Mine has always been from a position of live-and-let-live, open-mindedness, curiosity, and non-judging. Part of my current job is to investigate fatalities and serious injuries and this approach works well.

You're not being (IMHO) vain. I don't (I hope) appear that way either. I don't mention my 36 years in marine aquariums with 10 years prior to that in freshwater; my two college degrees; studies; ownerships; papers; volunteering hundreds of hours on RC (mostly in the Fish Disease Treatment Forum); IQ; etc unless asked or when I think I'm being judged without the judge knowing me or having all the info about me.

You see, I didn't see my post to be a cheap shot (at Seachem or anyone). You're right that it was vague and unsubstantiated. But why not just ask for more info? -- comments not needed until the facts have been gathered. Maybe we were too tired! :)

Seachem can make a mistake (in statement and deed). But I think this particular statement is not necessarily a condemnation of RO (nor a preference to DI over RO) as you seemed to interpret it. It was likely a chemical fact that the RO system might let something through the membrane that interferes with their test, not a judgement on the RO system. Thus, their warning that RO wouldn't be good enough, was technically based relative to the test, not a general condemnation of RO. Still, I'd like to clearly hear this from them, that they condemn RO, believe DI is preferred over a DI/RO system. Because, that DI is preferred over RO only goes without saying -- with consideration given to the source water contaminants.

I'm glad you practice what you preach. Just please take your yard stick off my back. :D No one will stop me from wasting anything by calling me names, making me feel badly, or insulting me. If anyone is serious about stopping others from wasting anything, then let them persuade or lobby for new legislation. The other tactics just elevate animosity and I think accomplish what you don't want. . .unproductive and impolite.

Selling comes in all forms -- selling isn't always for money.

I'm interested in why you wrote that, "They [Seachem] sell RO as well as DI yet make it clear that they recommend DI over RO." The literature I see says they have 3 RO units and 1 RO/DI unit for sale. Do they have a written recommendation of DI over RO somewhere?

It could be worthwhile to post with the understanding that we should take some time to inquire, gather info, investigate, and learn why, how, where, etc. the other is coming from. It could be.

I've enjoyed our digression.:dance:

aubee91

08/03/2005, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by fishdr
I just ordered one for 166.99 at http://www.aquariumplants.com/cgi-bin/cart/kent914.html

fishdr, did you get the unit you ordered? Any problems with the order? I went to the site and noticed they had good prices on several items, but I also clicked on the BBB link at the top of the page and found that they have had some problems. Here's a quote from http://www.bbbnebraska.org/commonreport.html?bid=113002629 :

"Customer Experience

Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to unanswered complaints.

On December 15th, this company's membership in the Better Business Bureau was terminated by the Board of Directors for violation of BBB Membership Standards. Specifically, no follow through on complaints and unanswered complaint(s). Additionally, the company is falsly advertising that it is a member of our Better Business Bureau. "

Anybody else order from these folks?

Also, anybody had any experience with this Kent DI unit? Is the TDS reading 0 on the output?

Thanks.

eameres

08/03/2005, 10:16 AM

I had ordered a whole bunch of live freshwater platns from them a while back, over $100 worth. I found them to very responsive. They even replaced soem plants for free that didn't take to my tank initially.

Steven Pro

08/03/2005, 11:10 AM

I got a reply from Aquatechnic once I translated my email into German and resent it. They gave me the name and email address of an individual. I contact him and he replied that his website for selling these units is not up yet. But, he will inform me when he is ready for business. And, when he does, I will pass the information along.

ediaz

08/03/2005, 11:56 AM

My unit had produced 40 galons so far, and the resins had changed color already I would say like 1/3 of the canister. Is there something wrong with the unit? At this rate I will get like 80 more gallons.

I am planning on buying the resins, not recharging.

Thanks
Edgar

Nanook

08/03/2005, 12:07 PM

I evaporate about 10gpd as it is now and will be doubling that in the near future....I would need extremely large containers for the kati/ani resins and a LOT of resin to fill them. Add to this the time to recharge the resins with chemicals and it sounds impractical for my needs.

Dave:(

MichaelKim

08/10/2005, 10:02 PM

Are all DI resins rechargeable? I have recharged my TWP many times and the colors of the resin all matched the recharge instructions. I recently recharged a mixed bed DI cartridge that came with my RO/DI and the resin colors do not match as described for the TWP. Are different brands of resins different colors?

Steven Pro

08/11/2005, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by MichaelKim
Are all DI resins rechargeable? I have recharged my TWP many times and the colors of the resin all matched the recharge instructions. I recently recharged a mixed bed DI cartridge that came with my RO/DI and the resin colors do not match as described for the TWP. Are different brands of resins different colors? There are many different brands of resin each with its own color and not all of them change colors.

MichaelKim

08/11/2005, 08:41 AM

So can any anionic resin be mixed with another anionic resin in a bed?
And where can you find pure sodium hydroxide? It seems all the crackhead/meph freaks in Arkansas have pretty much guaranteed you can't go to the grocery store and get Red Devil Lye.

Aquaman

08/23/2005, 11:40 AM

somebody posted a nice link to resindepot.com, Thanks, now if somebody else would kindly post the following.

Which resins to order.

Can I retrofit my current RO/DI system?

DKKA

08/25/2005, 12:55 PM

Aquaman,

You can buy seperate cation and anion resins from them. But they recommend using mixed bed resins. They used to have a package deal for us aquarists on their website, but I don't see it any longer. (it's been a long time since I ordered)
I believe this http://www.resindepot.com/shopexd.asp?id=5494 is the most likely culprit, but you might just want to contact them to be sure. They have posted here before and been very helpful.

The guy from Resin Depot chimes in on page 3 of http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=67501&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 this thread with lots of info.

Here is one quote indicating his preference for RO plus DI as well as using a mixed bed over seperate resins.

"it is important to know that there is a vast difference in water purity when you use a seperate cation and anion mixture as schanz is recomending. What he describes is a "seperate bed deionizer" does not remove all the ions in the water you are making. You need a mixed bed to do that. Also R.O. removes pestecides and other "organic" compounds in water. D.I. Does not, that is why you should be using Reverse osmosis and mixed bed deionization in your reef tanks. When water evaporates only the H and OH (H20) leave your tank. So when you want to replace it you only want to add back in H and OH and you need mixed bed ion exchange to do that."

He goes into more detail on the benefits of mixed bed over seperate later in the thread.

Dan

Steven Pro

08/25/2005, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by DKKA
Aquaman,

You can buy seperate cation and anion resins from them. But they recommend using mixed bed resins. They used to have a package deal for us aquarists on their website, but I don't see it any longer. (it's been a long time since I ordered)
I believe this http://www.resindepot.com/shopexd.asp?id=5494 is the most likely culprit, but you might just want to contact them to be sure. They have posted here before and been very helpful.

The guy from Resin Depot chimes in on page 3 of http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=67501&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 this thread with lots of info.

Here is one quote indicating his preference for RO plus DI as well as using a mixed bed over seperate resins.

"it is important to know that there is a vast difference in water purity when you use a seperate cation and anion mixture as schanz is recomending. What he describes is a "seperate bed deionizer" does not remove all the ions in the water you are making. You need a mixed bed to do that. Also R.O. removes pestecides and other "organic" compounds in water. D.I. Does not, that is why you should be using Reverse osmosis and mixed bed deionization in your reef tanks. When water evaporates only the H and OH (H20) leave your tank. So when you want to replace it you only want to add back in H and OH and you need mixed bed ion exchange to do that."

He goes into more detail on the benefits of mixed bed over seperate later in the thread.

Dan I went through and scanned that thread for the quotes above and found it on page 6, for anyone else interested. I had to read it myself direct from the source because I found the statement ridiculous on its face. I was hoping that it was misquoted somehow. I cannot for the life of me understand how having two resins, in one instance mixed and in another instance separate makes any difference whatsoever.

Unfortunately, resindepot's last post was made 4/19/2002.

Anthony Calfo

08/25/2005, 04:21 PM

and FWIW, from the current Kent Marine Annual Product Guide (page 066)

"DEION units will generally produce better quality water than RO, but for a shorter time, and with more maintenance."

Now as for the "more maintenance", Yes - indeed it is... by virtue of the fact that it is regenerable(!). That's a good thing :)

As opposed to lower maintenance throw away membranes and their ongoing higher expense (than cheap recharge household chemicals for DI units)

Kathy55g

08/26/2005, 11:18 PM

Anthony, where can one purchase Red Devil Lye and muriatic acid, and would it be possible to post the instructions? Thank you so much.

Mmaggicc2

08/27/2005, 07:13 AM

I bought the Red Devil Lye at a hardware store and the muriatic acid in the pool supply section of Home Depot.
I purchased the Kent Deion 200R about a month ago. I'm real happy with the results. My tap water has a TDS reading of 375 and the filtered water has a reading of 001. I'm very happy with the unit. Mary

Aquaman

08/27/2005, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by DKKA
Aquaman,

You can buy seperate cation and anion resins from them. But they recommend using mixed bed resins. They used to have a package deal for us aquarists on their website, but I don't see it any longer. (it's been a long time since I ordered)
I believe this http://www.resindepot.com/shopexd.asp?id=5494 is the most likely culprit, but you might just want to contact them to be sure. They have posted here before and been very helpful.

The guy from Resin Depot chimes in on page 3 of http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=67501&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 this thread with lots of info.

Here is one quote indicating his preference for RO plus DI as well as using a mixed bed over seperate resins.

He goes into more detail on the benefits of mixed bed over seperate later in the thread.

Dan

Hmm, so DI systems only don't remove any pesticides? thats not good!

So in reality, you gotta know exactly whats in your water before you decide to use a DI system, Otherwise your inviting disaster. Hmm,

A couple years ago I was living on some property with a well and Im sure that aside from high levels of phosphate, potassium I had several pestacides in the well water. I ended up using 2 pre's 2 carbons, 2 DI's and replaced one of each every month and the membrane yearly. Each of the filters I replaced each month were totally burned out. and that was just for a 125 reef and 120 anemone tank.

Where I live now has a water treatment plant across the street from my subdivision I can smell high levels of chlorine in the water. I still replace one each of the filters a month, The prefilter is usually burnt orange. The house is about 18 years old and the piping im sure isn't up to code.

So with this information, I don't see how I could go to a DI only system, but thanks for the link, I keep all my old DI filters and will order that DI resin in bulk that alone will save me some cash.

pondfrog

08/27/2005, 09:33 PM

Mary,
How many gallons of water are you getting(at pre water of 375) prior to needing to recharge your resins?
Thanks,
Steve

Mmaggicc2

08/28/2005, 05:10 AM

Hi Steve, I got about 25 gallons before I needed to recharge the Anion cartridge. The Cation cartridge is about half depleted at this point.
I'm having a issue with the recharge. I posted another thread but no one has replied yet. I recharged the Anion cartridge per instructions...drizzling 5 quarts of a Lye/water mixture over a 24 hour period. The cartridge went back to it's blue color. I them did the final instructed step of putting the cartridge back in the unit and running 12 gallons of water through it. At that point the whole cartridge changed color again. I'm getting a TDS reading of 006ppm. I would appreciate any thoughts that anyone has on this. I will call Kent on Monday.

pondfrog

08/28/2005, 08:11 AM

Mary,
Thanks for the numbers that at least gives me a starting point to know how much water to get out of a DI. My source TDSis about half yours, so I would get a bit more, but even still........That would be a lot of work/time for 1000g system. I now know I would have to have a monstrosity of a DI system to work for me
!!!
Steve

rick rottet

08/29/2005, 01:26 PM

First, I have read all of the posts in this thread.
I do agree that RO systems waste water. I am not a big fan wasting water either. Much of the discussion about RO vs DI has to do with how much water you need, what your source water is like, and how often someone is willing to perform the recharges (or exchanges) on a DI.
Back a couple of years ago, I was doing tons of research for my propagation facility. Anthony was someone I pestered frequently for info/advice. (I still pester him, just not frequently anymore :P) While investigating DI units, I had the opportunity to email back and forth several times with Aquatechnics. I wrote to them in English and they wrote back to me in German- which I translated using LEO (online translator). I had to go word by word. I didn't know of a 'plug in a whole page' translator.
http://www.leo.org/leo_home_en.html

I was able to find three US sources for Aquatechinics deionizers. One was Dr.s Foster and Smith.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4499&Ne=40000&R=12993&ref=3167&subref=AC&N=2004+113073
I ended up purchasing the kati ani unit from them. Apparently, they are not handling the Aquatechnic line anymore. (???) The page is still up on their website. Probably for the same reason Anthony suggested to me that it wouldn't be worth it for me to buy the unit direct from Aquatechnic due to import taxes/customs duties plus negotiating warranty service is a nightmare. Aquatechnics has good warranty service, it is the going back and forth through customs that is the nightmare. If no other option was available at the time, I guess I would have bought it direct.

The second US source was Aquadirect, but they did not have the size I was looking for, but did sell the german kati-ani series 1 (1,100 gallons), kati-ani series 2 (2,300 gallons) and an ani (no kati listed) series 5. I have the kati ani series 10.
http://www.aqualink.com/direct/purify/deionize.html
The third US source was someone Anthony had mentioned in one of our personal communications, so I am not comfortable with giving their names, nor do I know if they are comfortable with having their names being mentioned.
The Aquadirect link is from my favorites and is probably three years old by now. I don't know if they still sell them, but the page is still up online.

As stated, I am not a big fan of wasting water either, but sometimes you gotta do watcha gotta do. My source water runs about 680 - 780 ppm TDS. It is full of iron (++), calcium (++), and magnesium (++) - all of which deplete DI resins faster than something like sodium (+). The Aquatechnics seies 10 is advertised to process 9,800 gallons between recharges. The system is two acrylic towers about 31" tall and about 27" full of resins. I got less than 350 gallons before the kati resin showed full color change and was exhausted. In a propagation facility expected to use 1,000 - 1,300 gallons each week, I would have been recharging the DI near daily. I felt (and still feel) that RO in front of the DI was a necessary evil (for me). Even after putting in the RO system, I lost 4 membranes due to the extreme amount of iron in the water. In addition to the RODI, I have had to install an aspiration/oxidizing iron removal system because a household type water softener was not adequate. The water coming out of the RO is around 8 - 9 ppm TDS and then goes to the DI. Even with all of that, I only get about 4,800 gallons or about 1/2 of the advertised amount. In this case, a DI alone was simply not a viable alternative. I knew my source water was crappy, but was convinced that a DI of that size and quality would produce much more quality water than 350 gallons.
In comparison, a series 1 (advertised for 1,100 gallons) would give me roughly 40 gallons. If you have really crappy source water like mine, be prepared to recharge those DI resins frequently.
Speaking of rechrging, muriatic acid can usually be found at any hardware store/ home improvement store/ pool supply house for about $3 per gallon. It takes about 1 1/2 gallons to recharge my series 10.
Sodium hydroxide can be found in the link below or drain cleaners (diluted). It takes 800 grams of sodium hydroxide to recharge my series 10.
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium_Hydroxide.htm
Not trying to make any points of discussion, just wanted to share my experience (and the links).

edwar050

09/04/2005, 10:28 PM

I recently had a membrane on my 5 stage RO go out. Could I not then buy an anion and cation resin and place them in the RO housing/DI unit? Would it be more feasable than replacing an RO membrane? I love the idea of recharging resin and 0 waste water. Has anyone built a seperate column out of pvc to hold the resins for extra water purification?

http://www.spectrapure.com/St_replac_p5.htm#semi-anion

What would be the best resins to get from this site, any other places to buy resin cheap???
Also in reguards to Red Devil Lye and Muratic acid what is the best ratio mixture?

Thank you,

Brad

flowerseller

09/06/2005, 08:52 PM

I had used a kati/ani 2 made by Aquatechnics since 1988 until July of 2005. While several years ago my kati tower stopped changing colors, I still made satifactory water. I gauged when to regenerate by measuring the height of the ani tower which expanded as it exhausted. Upon regeneration, the resin height would drop 3.5". I began to have to regenerate after a few hundred gallons and while the regeneration process was simple, I felt it was time to replace. Contacting Aquatechnics via email got a speedy German reply which a friends aupair translated. They did not have a current USA supplier. Dissapointed by this and not aware of Resin depot, I reluctantly sought and then bought an RO/DI unit that I like but, cheap Chip hates to waste water too. I have collected all waste water and currently water my large patio plants. They look GREAT however this will cease when the weather turns and resume again in the spring.
Having said this, I have now thought to continue collecting the waste water and allowing it to flow via gravity thru the old but trusty DI unit thus not wasting any water. The waste water has been thru 1 sedimnt filter and 2 carbon block filters.
I noticed however that my tap water is 250 TDS, my collected RO/DI water is 002-003 but my waste water reads 350 TDS.
What's up with that? What would be wrong with collecting the waste water and allowing it to flow via gravity thru the Kati/Ani and then collect that for use in my reef also?

Anthony & Steven, it appears I will be introducing you during your sessions at Macna17. Want to send me any info as an intro?

Steven Pro

09/07/2005, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by flowerseller
I noticed however that my tap water is 250 TDS, my collected RO/DI water is 002-003 but my waste water reads 350 TDS.
What's up with that? That is normal for a RO unit. They work by separating impurities in the water and then concentrating them into the waste water.

Steven Pro

09/07/2005, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by flowerseller
Anthony & Steven, it appears I will be introducing you during your sessions at Macna17. Want to send me any info as an intro? Do check out my website, http://mysite.verizon.net/vze87e9o/index.html It has a short bio piece as well as a resume and other information.

Steven Pro

09/07/2005, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by StevenPro
I got a reply from Aquatechnic once I translated my email into German and resent it. They gave me the name and email address of an individual. I contact him and he replied that his website for selling these units is not up yet. But, he will inform me when he is ready for business. And, when he does, I will pass the information along. By the way, the new US distributor is still not ready to go yet. Still working on the website and getting the first shipment of product.

Kathy55g

11/03/2005, 08:44 AM

How's this for not wasting water:

I have a RODI unit with a two stage DI because our city water has chloramine and a mixed bed would not remove the ammonia. So, I make ASW using the RODI water, and the waste water goes into my washing machine to do the first step in washing our clothes.

I use the ASW at 35 ppt to do water changes on my 55 gallon reef display. I also use RODI water to top off the display and my grow out tanks, as I am raising clownfish in my basement.

The water I take out of my reef tank during the water change gets filtered thru one or two Bounty paper towels, and diluted to 25 ppt with more RODI water and is used to do a water change on the fish only grow out tanks. Water pulled out of the grow out tanks is similarly filtered and chlorinated with 1 ml bleach per gallon and stored until use.

I use this water after dechlorinating to propagate phytoplankton and rotifers to feed my clownfish larvae.

So my water and salt gets used 3 or 4 times before being flushed. There is no waste.

Do I get an award?

YES! I save money on salt and water. Not to mention it is very easy NOT to make up saltwater for all the things I have going.

walt13

11/04/2005, 09:25 AM

Is the Kent Marine as good as the german model that is not available yet. I have been looking at an RO/DI unit but after reading this I may go with DI only. It seems to make sense for me. I only use 10 gallons a week or less on average so i will not have to recharge as frequently as someone using more water. I am new to RO or DI so are these units plug and play or is there some plumming for the Kent or German DI units mentioned above? Thanks.

Walt

Mogrash

11/07/2005, 11:35 AM

What about this filter?

http://www.aquariumguys.com/koldsterii1.html

Also, an interesting table for output from a DI depending on your starting quality of water for this unit: http://www.phlsci.com/De-Ionizer/de-ionizer.html

Purity of Tapwater Cartridge Capacity
TDS* (Parts per million**) Output Output
_ (US Gallons) (Liters)
Good 50 1440 5451
75 960 3634
100 720 2725
Average 120 600 2271
150 480 1817
Poor 200 360 1363
250 288 1090

hex1

11/07/2005, 03:16 PM

The kold sterile unit is fine as far as water quality and no waste water are concerned, but you have to shell out $$ for the replacement filters since you cant renew them cheaply, like you can with separate bed DI.

Mogrash

11/08/2005, 10:30 AM

Heh, that must be why they didn't show the cost of the replacement filters on that webpage!

killerwhale

11/10/2005, 07:14 AM

So Anthony, I have made it thru the thread but I want to pin you down on your opinion, after all thats why most of us frequent the site,all of the other info aside. Do you think these German resins are better than the ones discussed from US or is it truly a function of original water quality. I have been someone who has tried just DI it was the kent 200whatever and I got less than 30 gal. Like one of the users above I would barely complete the rinsing process before the resin needed recharging.Are people like us just out of luck or do you have suggestions. What method did you use to regenerate. Did you make up a seperate drip station if so what did it look like.While a wealth of info can be attained from searches as is witnessed on this thread there are many different views and missinfo. I personally care to here yours. You cant argue with your success. Keep up the good work.

zeppelin

11/23/2005, 05:46 PM

I read through the thread, and I didn't see this, so..... Which is for which? The muriatic acid, and the Red Devil Lye.

I picked up the Kent unit, and am ready for the first re-charge. The first one went quick, but I was told it was probably because there was carbon dust in the carbon cannister. Hoping the re-charge last for more than a week. ;)

Thanks

Larry

Steven Pro

11/23/2005, 05:52 PM

The acid recharges the Kati while the lye does the Ani portion.

kevin2000

11/25/2005, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Steven Pro
I cannot for the life of me understand how having two resins, in one instance mixed and in another instance separate makes any difference whatsoever.....

While it may sound logical that a two bed system should give you the same results as a mixed bed ... it does not and there really isn't any much serious debate outside of various aquarist forums.

I suggest you expand your research to include various industrial applications ... perhaps including hemodialysis within your search parameters as almost all medical applications that utilize deionized water require a mixed bed approach.

Not sure but I expect the reason for the superior performace of a mixed bed is Ph related. Certain ions are more readily exchanged within certain Ph limits. Since the first bed in any dual bed system will signficantly alter the PH (up or down depending on whether your using cation or anion) the source water for the second bed may have a PH that inteferes with the effectivess of that resin.

From a practical perspective I suspect that a dual bed system provides more than adquate water quality for most aquarist ... however thats going to be depedent on what water quality issue one is fighting.

wds21921

11/27/2005, 09:46 PM

Just to add to this forum I've been using the Aqua Pharms DI filter for several years off and on.
Earlier it was mentioned that the quality of water may change depending upon the season etc.

Living in Maryland, I've noticed our local municipality water treatment facility has pretty good water in the summer but come fall and winter it's completely different.

The cartridges sold suggest you could possibly get up to 150 gallons from the mixed bed DI unit depending of course upon your source water.

In the summertime I've gotten up to 80-100 gallons of usage before the resins change color.
Last week I got 40 gallons out of one cartridge. (November)

I don't use a TDS meter so I can't give results other than to say when and how much water went through before resin color was noticeably different, as I've mentioned above.

My concern goes back to what was mentioned earlier with capture or lack of chloramine in a DI/Carbon only system, and how often am I going to have to recharge the seperated kati and ani resins?
For someone who does this as a part of there income and can afford the ability to have time to recharge these resins it is of course more sensible.
With as much maintanence and time spent doing so versus what time is already eaten up in daily living what may be sensible financially is not always practical according to our schedules.

shelburn61

12/12/2005, 12:28 PM

I can't find pure lye anywhere in town. It seems all the hardware stores have quit carrying it because of the methheads.

Any ideas on other local sources? What industries use the stuff?

kevin2000

12/12/2005, 12:38 PM

Used to be the main ingrediant in many drain cleaners ... might check some labels on various drain cleaner products.

Steven Pro

12/12/2005, 12:42 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6269432#post6269432 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kevin2000
Used to be the main ingrediant in many drain cleaners ... might check some labels on various drain cleaner products. That is what I use, Red Devil Lye, a drain cleaner/declogging product available at the grocery store.

rick rottet

12/12/2005, 02:29 PM

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium_Hydroxide.htm

shelburn61

12/12/2005, 03:18 PM

I've been looking for the Red Devil at Hardware stores, but I will try the groceries...

Anthony Calfo

12/12/2005, 03:35 PM

I buy mine at the local grocery store too. Red Devil pure lye (drain cleaner) as Steven does.

Steven Pro

12/13/2005, 08:00 AM

I am not sure how to handle this, so mods feel free to correct this post.

Anyhow, Kip Tani is about to receive his first shipment of Aquatechnik Kati-Ani units from Germany. I am reluctant to post Kips' email in this thread for several reasons. One, I don't want to be in violation of the commercial posts rule. And secondly, I don't want some web crawler to pick up his email and flood his inbox with spam. If anyone is interested in buying a Kati-Ani, PM or email me and I will give you Kip's email address.

Anthony Calfo

12/13/2005, 09:10 AM

all good... handled well Steve. Thank you. It's fine to reference a merchant that you/we (the poster) has no affiliation with.

It's the merchant that cannot shill their own products (or excessively/suspiciously enthusiatic individuals otherwise) so that we/RC can stay non-commercial for the sake of focus on reef discussion content. And this is reef discussion :)

Thanks again for the tip about ktani.

nyvp

12/14/2005, 12:39 PM

BTW how many different types of tests do you guys use on your tank and water? What type of different metters and kits do you use?

nyvp

12/14/2005, 02:53 PM

also I am having the city come by to test my water what should I ask them to look for ?

shelburn61

12/14/2005, 07:07 PM

Mixed bed units are the only ones capable producing pure water right?

The kati-ani units are separate bed correct? How do they overcome this problem?

wds21921

12/14/2005, 07:34 PM

I would imagine the end result should be the same even though the elements are seperated shouldn't they?

Unresistible Blue

12/14/2005, 09:45 PM

You'll get better treatment with a mixed bed, in general. But given suitable exposure to the unmixed beds, you'll be fine as well.

Shoestring Reefer

12/22/2005, 07:08 PM

I only read the first and last page, so my apologies if this has been covered.

Regarding initial cost, my DI filter (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4484&N=2004+113775) cost me $30. I think the statement that people start with RO because of expense is inaccurate; I got about 125-150 gallons of water per $15 cartridge, so with a 10% weekly water change plus 5 gallons of evaporation per week, it only cost me about $75 (the filter plus 3 replacement cartridges) for the first year, with my 55 gallon tank. For someone on a budget, $30 now and $45 later this year is mch more attractive than $100 now for RO/DI. Especially when it's rated for 10 gallons/hr.

IMO, people go for RO the same reason they buy $80 corals that only cost $15 in Germany. RO is trendy.

Red Devil drain cleaner. Interesting...

badpacket

12/22/2005, 10:33 PM

My understanding is that DI is in fact quite a bit 'cleaner', from an ionic perspective. Unfortunately, DI will not remove many pesky things we may want to be. "Reverse osmosis is capable of rejecting bacteria, salts, sugars, proteins, particles, dyes, and other constituents that have a molecular weight of greater than 150-250 daltons. The separation of ions with reverse osmosis is aided by charged particles. This means that dissolved ions that carry a charge, such as salts, are more likely to be rejected by the membrane than those that are not charged, such as organics. The larger the charge and the larger the particle, the more likely it will be rejected." DI will not remove non-ionic solids or organics.
There may also be additional anion/cation's left in the water, which is something that is mandated to be measured by anyone who deals with water for the public, per the Safe Drinking Water Act, and FDA USP. A coworker says they add a little barium chloride to a sample to see if insoluable salts form, as a test. I do wonder now if any of the DI products on the market are aware or test for this, since the thread seems to be focused on what is probably unneccesary purity demands?
Oh and my buddy mentioned that colloidal silica is also not removed by DI.

While I would love to go DI only, the fact that DI would leave bacteria, excess cations/anions, dissolved organics and solids and this colloidal silica, along with the recharging, it makes me wonder whether or not it is actually cheaper to dump an extra 400% waste water down the drain? I mean, if you think of what it costs to collect, manufacture, transport the lye and acids, and then after using them to dilute them and dump them down the drain, and the impact upon the water supply system, I don't know.

I found the GE site to be a worthy read:
http://www.gewater.com/library/tp/833_What_Is.jsp
With this one in partuclar germane to the topic:
Advances and Changing Costs in Reverse Osmosis and Ion Exchange Systems

http://www.gewater.com/library/tp/733_Advances_and.jsp
I'm happy to note they do in fact mention the caustics cost into the equation.

shelburn61

12/24/2005, 10:59 PM

I just finished the separation and recharging of my old Tap Water Purifier cartridges. I rigged up a 3 stage system for carbon, cation, and anion resin. Directions can be found here:

http://lgonzalez.net/aquatics/deionizer.html

TDS reading is 0!!!!!!

Anthony Calfo

12/24/2005, 11:01 PM

wow... fab Zo! Much thanks :)

boris MAC

12/25/2005, 06:50 AM

Oh, what a reading, well, a few years ago, after I finished with the "BOCP VI" I decide to order KATI&ANI 1 unit , from well known reasons Anthony mantion in his book as well in this tread.
The unit produce better water than all of my RO units and I'm very hapy with it.
Only problem is that was mention earlier in the tread, I could get only 40 galons before recharging, and if compare with Steven 5 unit, I have 1 liter of resins, so I shold get at least 100 galons before recharging.
Aquatechnic , as to most of the emails, did not respond till now.
My question is, were I'm doing mistake? What should be the water flow trought the media, I run it forcefuly.
Hope Steven and Anthony colud help with the isue.

badpacket

12/31/2005, 04:05 PM

Boris,

Not to be argumentative, however when you say cleaner, what exactly are you testing for to make that point? Most of what I've read seems to show RO removing more of the 'stuff' than DI. Aside from getting water much faster, I'd say the link below charting what is removed by the various water purification systems might be useful to compare against how clean you believe your water to be:
http://www.edstrom.com/products.cfm?doc_id=192

Steven Pro

12/31/2005, 06:27 PM

RO membranes do remove more things than DI alone, but some of these are typically not a concern when using tapwater (microorganisms for instance) or can be dealt with the addition of a cheap prefilter canister from the hardware store (particulates and organics).

Steven Pro

12/31/2005, 06:29 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6353877#post6353877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boris MAC
Oh, what a reading, well, a few years ago, after I finished with the "BOCP VI" I decide to order KATI&ANI 1 unit , from well known reasons Anthony mantion in his book as well in this tread.
The unit produce better water than all of my RO units and I'm very hapy with it.
Only problem is that was mention earlier in the tread, I could get only 40 galons before recharging, and if compare with Steven 5 unit, I have 1 liter of resins, so I shold get at least 100 galons before recharging.
Aquatechnic , as to most of the emails, did not respond till now.
My question is, were I'm doing mistake? What should be the water flow trought the media, I run it forcefuly.
Hope Steven and Anthony colud help with the isue. I usually get between 250-600 gallons from my Aquatechnic Kati-Ani #2 set. This varies seasonally with the quality of my tapwater. I set my unit to produce about 10 gallons per hour.

badpacket

12/31/2005, 09:20 PM

Steven, thanks for the reply, I think it clicked now. Upon further searching, it does look indeed like carbon blocks will remove THM's, and many other VOC's. However pretty much anything under 1 micron will pass through the system, which would include bacteria, cysts, etc. Additionally, the resins themselves become breeding grounds for bacteria, so is it not possible that the incoming water which is being processed isn't being both cleaned, and then re-contaminated at the end of the loop?

I've got another spare set of 10" canisters, may try it again now with better pre-filtering and with a carbon block upstream.

Steven Pro

01/01/2006, 09:14 AM

I would think that properly chlorinated tapwater would not have any bacteria in it to start with. I guess water could back siphon into the Kati-Ani unit and get bacteria that way, but I still don't think it would matter unless you are using it for drinking. Most any freshwater bacteria would die once you add salt to make seawater or add as top-off to your marine tank.

Raul-7

01/01/2006, 09:30 AM

Sorry to bud in, but do you recharge the resins or throw them out and buy new ones? How difficult is it to recharge?

The reason DI is not safe to drink is; because it lacks essential minerals or because it might be full of micro-organisms?

Steven Pro

01/01/2006, 09:39 AM

With an Aquatechnik Kati-Ani you recharge the resins. It is not difficult but requires you to use some nasty chemicals in the process.

boris MAC

01/03/2006, 05:44 AM

Hallo, HAPY NEW YEAR, just get back from a trip and noticed the replaies.
Meanwile I have recive some answers from AQUATECHNIC as well using German language with a help from a friend, but first, badpacket, I have 4 RO units, one is with post silica resin, and one KATI ANI 1. I have HANA combi pH,TDS and mS.
With the best RO/DI unit I get the readings of 12-13 mS, and 14-15 TDS. KATI ANI 1 , now when I set it up similiar as Steven Pro, with the advice from Marcus from Aquatechnic I get 3 mS, and 0 TDS.
Abouth the production, Marcus told me that it depends on the water GH mainly besides the other factors. So for example it is easly to cleray determine production of any unit by deviding the tap water GH by hectoliter production of the unit.
Also I have one question abouth ANI regeneration, reading the tread I found there is used staf for cleaning pipes, what is NaOH, I have here 45-50 % comercial product for this purposes in liquid form, I wonder is this enough good solution.

Steven Pro

01/03/2006, 07:23 AM

NaOH is short-hand for sodium hydroxide. Not all pipe cleaning products use the same chemicals. Anthony and I both use a particular product which is just sodium hydroxide, but you would have to verify that is what is in your particular pipe product as well as the concentration.

Raul-7

01/03/2006, 04:20 PM

Basically you need a really strong acid (HCL) and really strong base (NaOH) to recharge the cation (acid?) and anion (base?) resins.

But why can't you drink DI? Is it because it lacks essential minerals or because it might be full of micro-organisms?

Steven Pro

01/03/2006, 04:31 PM

I have repeatedly heard that you can't drink DI water, but have never heard a convincing argument as to why not. It could just be another myth.

Konadog

01/03/2006, 04:42 PM

Steven, I have also heard this myth, and yes it is a myth. Somewhere here on RC a doctor (if I remember correctly) responded to this question. IIRC, he said, You cannot live on this water 100% meaning everything that you eat or drink, but to just use it for everyday drinking water would not be a problem. Yes, it is deficient of minerals and those that your body gets is small amounts from drinking water is what, over time will be missing. Someone mentioned that DI water "pulls minerals" out of your body, again a myth as the water just doesn't replace minerals it's lacking to begin with. I think that he also mentioned that it just down right tastes funky too!

Edit: I did find this post and it may be in here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=643927&highlight=myth

Unresistible Blue

01/03/2006, 06:31 PM

I never have subscribed to the notion that DI will pull minerals out of your body - considering the fact that when the DI water hits my stomach it will mix with more minerals than it can deal with.

My concern goes more to long term exposure of dental enamal to DI water. The stuff is tough on even copper pipes - I would think it would not be the best on your teeth either.

But as someone said above - this is really a non issue as DI water doesn't taste great and its unlikely anyone would make a habit of drinking it.

E-A-G-L-E-S

01/03/2006, 06:36 PM

stevenpro....could you please send me regeneration directions, as i would like to check them against the one's i was given?
I need to recharge mine for the first time.....Red Devil Lye & Muriatic Acid are what i need correct?
Thanks - Matt

Steven Pro

01/03/2006, 08:54 PM

Send me a PM or email with your mailing address and I will send you a photocopy of the instruction book that came with my Kati-Ani.

boris MAC

01/04/2006, 05:59 AM

Steven , the product I mention is 45-50% NaOH. It works fine, before this I have used cristaline caustic soda, but is hard to handle and easy get wet. Is it 45-50% NaOH good enough?

Steven Pro

03/13/2006, 02:23 PM

I just wanted to let you all know that Kip has the Kati-Ani's now. I know because I just got my #10 set from him.

CaptiveMarine

03/13/2006, 02:26 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6944905#post6944905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Steven Pro
I just wanted to let you all know that Kip has the Kati-Ani's now. I know because I just got my #10 set from him.

Sorry, I don't know Kip. How can I get in touch with him to order one?

Steven Pro

03/13/2006, 02:44 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6944933#post6944933 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CaptiveMarine
Sorry, I don't know Kip. How can I get in touch with him to order one? PM sent

ktani

03/14/2006, 10:56 PM

I am currently in the process of re-writing the German version of the manual into English. Although they did a fine job of translation, there are some subtle nuances that can be added and modified to further strengthen the documentation.

This should help clarify any confusion and problems that some have had with the units.

Kip

Tunjee

02/06/2008, 05:41 PM

So is anyone out there recharging their DI resins anymore? How do you seperate the mixed bed resins?

rick rottet

02/07/2008, 05:11 AM

i still recharge my SEPARATE bed resins.
i have never used a mixed bed DI nor tried to separate them, but from what i understand, the different resins are not the same density, so in theory, you could dump both resins in water, slowly increse the specific gravity of the water, and one set of resins should float before the other. it would then be a simple matter of scooping the one that floats first off of the surface.

malulu

04/29/2008, 08:34 AM

i have the kati-ani 5 unit, that suppose to generate about ~6000g of pur water, but due to my VERY HARD water ~33GH, it only last for 200g or so, and need to regenerated...

at first, i have the unit feed with AFTER water softener unit (GH=3), it also last only about 200g, and I suspected it could be due to more salt in the water? therefore causing the resin use up too quick?

then, after i regenerated it (not hard to do, just too much tedious time wasted...) i hook up the unit to BEFORE the water softener (GH=33), and the same 200g output...

is there anyway that i can do to avoid this short re-generation problem?

thx for your helps...

BEFORE SOFTENER:
- GH=33
- TDS=410ppm
- FLOW RATE=~8gh

AFTER SOFTENER:
- GH=3
- TDS=640ppm
- FLOW RATE=~8gh

RESULT: (same for both case above)
- GH= (N/A - did not check...)
- TDS=7
- FLOW RATE=~8gh

rick rottet

04/29/2008, 11:38 AM

i had extremely hard water in the location i ran my greenhouse. a typical sodium-based water softener did not help in my situation. as you stated, the softener just swaps one substance (iron/calcium/magnesium/manganese) for another (sodium). the deionizer still gets used up just as quickly.
the two things that greatly improved my deionizer performance was to 1) run an RO unit before the deionizer. i know this defeats the whole idea of running a DI only to conserve wasted water, but in my case, it was a necessity. BTW, an RO membrane will function much better at removing sodium than it will trying to remove soluble iron, so a typical softener benefits the membranes. 2) installed an iron removal system. this system was a 2-tank system that injected high amounts of air into the water, thereby oxidizing the iron (turning it from soluble iron to particulate rust). then the water flows thorugh a sand-type filter to trap the rust. it also removed other substances like the calcium and manganese as long as they can be oxidized. the benefit of these aspirated removal systems is that the unwanted substances are removed from the water, instead of swapped for something else. the DI will last much longer.
in my case, i was using the 10 series. originally i was producing about 300+ gallons of useable water through the DI (my memory is a little rusty, but i believe that to be an accurate number). after i installed the iron removal systema and the RO membranes, i was able to make somewhere over 6,000 gallons.
i also received some advice that there is another way to remove the iron from source water. that is to have your tap water spray in a fine manner...almost a mist... into a large vat. this will also oxidize much of the hardness and let it settle to the bottom of the vat. if the vat is in an elevated position, the DI can be fed from the middle of the vat to avoid the settled particles. feeding the vat with ozone seems to me would also likely accelerate the oxidation of hardness.
i have also talked to people who think that some sort of flocculent would help. these flocculnets would be mixed into the vat and bind themselves to specific atoms/ molecules/ ions and force them to settle out of solution.
most of these methods will involve some cost, so that has to weighed against the time/ cost of recharging the DI.

lechee12

04/29/2008, 08:42 PM

can someone please post the instructions for re-newing the resin?

thanks

malulu

04/29/2008, 11:18 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12432862#post12432862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rick rottet
....
2) installed an iron removal system. this system was a 2-tank system that injected high amounts of air into the water, thereby oxidizing the iron (turning it from soluble iron to particulate rust). then the water flows thorugh a sand-type filter to trap the rust. it also removed other substances like the calcium and manganese as long as they can be oxidized.
...

Rick,

thanks for the great advice...

i tried to search the web for the "iron removal system", and they are tons of them, some for the whole house, and some only work for 60g then need recharge...etc. I am confuse which is the right one for my case... do you have a link to something as recommend?

thx

lechee12,
did you mean the recharge of the Cati-Ani (the instruction would comes with the unit)? or you referring to something else like the DI unit from Kent-Marine...etc.? (the Kent-Marine one's instructions can be found here - http://www.kentmarine.com/assets/004/8639.pdf
good luck.

rick rottet

04/30/2008, 08:11 AM

it would totally depend on your expected use per day (or week or month...) AND how often you want to go through the flushing process. some work on an ion exchange process (recharge needed) and some work on an oxidation/ filtration process (backflush needed)

i used--> http://www.marlo-inc.com/product/klear_flo.htm

there is also a link under the picture that says "literature". there you can view the .pdf documents alll about the unit itself. and i guess i was wrong about it removing calcium and magnesium... it only removes iron, sulfides, and manganese, and maybe some organics.
it has a 1,000 gallon per day capacity. the one i had was set up to automatically back flush every night. if your consumption is less, the back flushing can be done on a different schedule, or be done manually. keep in mind that the automatic backflush will consume a dramatic amount of water... i think it was around 8 gallons per minute and ran close to 2 hours to flush both tanks!!!! where i lived, my water bill was around $120 every 3 months for the greenhouse, that included all the backflushing plus RODI water for the tanks, plus all the cleaning duties, plus evaporative cooling systems.... water was cheap, but it was crappy which was why i had to use all the filtering equipment LOL.

for what its worth, i never had a moments trouble with mine once it was installed properly. it was around $1500 installed and guaranteed by my local softener company.

malulu

04/30/2008, 12:58 PM

OMG, 8g per min for 2 hours... (let's use 100 mins for easy calculation)

8g x 100 mins = 800gals (waste water)

one of the reason for me to use the DI-only (Cati-Ani) was due to the RO water waste issue... if using DI + this flush, i would end up with the same water wasted...
:-(

rick rottet

04/30/2008, 02:30 PM

yes, very sad but true. i am in no way a fan of wasting water either, but in my case, it was a necessity. with the iron content of my water, my RO membranes would foul in about 3 months (and i mean down to the point there was so little water coming out of them, it couldnt even be called "dripping"). i ran 4 membranes that were 100 gpd each, so to replace them every 3 months was extortionately expensive. then add on the fact that i could only run about 300 gallons through my DI before i needeed to recharge ... i would have been recharging near daily (and this was the Aquatechnics 10 series. advertised to be able to process something like "9,800 gallons of very hard water"). in view of long term expenditures, it was cheaper to buy the extra equipment and pay the water bill. a location with an actual water treatment facility, probabyl couldnt have the same said for it. i know guys who pay douoble in one month what i was paying for 3 months.

the flushes could be performed manually, and just flush the tanks until the water runs clear. i never tried a manual flush, so i couldnt make a guess how much water it would take to do it.

anyway, the spray into a vat idea does have some merit. i know an aquaculturist in florida who used that method. it would be a way to reduce the iron content before running through the DI. maybe simply a tap line run into a plastic shower head that would spray into a vat??? the addition of ozone will accelerate the oxidation process, but add some cost.

ReefEnabler

04/30/2008, 04:24 PM

hey guys,

I just found this thread and read through it. alot of the links from the earlier pages are bad so I'd like to kindly ask for some information to be regiven:

What are some good sources for resins?
I've seen Kent cation/anion mentioned alot, but all the links were bad. Are these mixed bed, or separate?

Does refering to a resin as cati/ani imply that its a mixed bed resin, or could it refer to two separate resins?

What kind of container is needed for the refillable resins, if you want to replace standard 10" catridges.

I have a 90gpd RODI unit. What I am thinking of doing is adding a bypass valve to produce DI-Only water for the initial filling up my tank, and possibly for large water changes (I dont want to wait a week initially for a leak test).

Is anybody out there actually recharging mixed bed resins? I read earlier back that its possible but nobody had tried it.

I wonder what the cost is if you replace the resins instead of recharging them?

artful-dodger

04/30/2008, 05:00 PM

"cati/ani" is generally used to denote separate resin beds. Same stuff, mixed together, is "mixed bed"

You can use the same cannisters/cartridges as you use for mixed bed, just placed in series.

I do the bypass valve on my setup...during the summer months, my waste water is directed outside to water shrubs. During the winter, I bypass the RO to avoid dumping all that down the drain.

I do the recharge thing...getting ready to start up again for the spring since I don't want to mess with the stuff in the closed house during the winter.

Try checking spectrapure.com for equipment and bulk resins. There are other sources, but Spectrapure has it all (even though their website is a little tough to navigate--some things are filed under non-intuitive headings. It looks like they added a search function since the last time I ordered, which is good news.)

They also offer a larger capacity cartridge that works with the standard cannisters and brackets.

ReefEnabler

04/30/2008, 05:35 PM

thanks!

http://www.spectrapure.com/St_replac_p5.htm

I did find the spectrapure bulk resins. couldn't find it from their site (same issues u mention), but google did the trick!!

Seems like alot of options to consider!!!

I recently bought both Maxcap and SilicaBuster resins from them. I haven't even taken them out of the mylar bag yet.... are these 'cartidges' possible to open up and replace the resin??????

I notice they sell the resin needed to make up a new SilicaBuster resin, which is both mixed-bed mixed with extra Anion.

Seems like doing it that way would really complicate the whole 'recharging' part.... how would you go about separating the anions/cations for recharging?

Would it be best to forego the whole Maxcap/SB thing and just have one canister purely anion, an another purely cation? I notice they dont seem to have Resin for the MaxCap anyways.

I know the main reason for having the MaxCap in addition to the SB is so you have to replace the expensive resin less often. Seems like separate Anion/Cation resins would make recharging easier but you would lose the long life from the other combination.

This is starting to make sense but I'm still not ready to make any decisions.

Great thread (and a blast from the past!)

artful-dodger

04/30/2008, 06:15 PM

I have found that keeping them in two separate cannisters is (by far) the simplest. I don't think you lose any lifetime at all, but I haven't tested. If you're recharging, it really doesn't matter. You can recharge one quart or one gallon of resin for about the same price.

I'm currently running 8 positions on my system (with the RO stage being bypassable)...For the final four, I use two of the Spectrapure MaxCap containers for cation and anion resins and then pass the water through my original two mixed bed cannisters. It is overkill, but I get 0 ppm for months without having to change resins.

There is an old post around here with a link to instructions for separating the mixed bed resins...I have a copy at home, but can probably find the link again. I haven't done it yet, but I have been saving all of my exhausted mixed bed to give it a shot. (My plan is to never buy resins again.)

---------------
I took a long phone call and got locked out of editing my earlier post so I'll add one additional comment:

For a pre-engineered system (especially for high production volumes), you should PM Kip (ktani) about the Aquatechnik systems...he's posted in this thread before. The solution isn't cheap but it is the one that all of our "ghetto" systems try to emulate.

ReefEnabler

04/30/2008, 06:19 PM

interesting setup.
" and then pass the water through my original two mixed bed cannisters."

So the final two stages are just normal DI mixed bed canisters? How does this fit into your rechargable DI design? or did you mean that you're just using these until they are exhausted and then you'll refill with something else?

lechee12

04/30/2008, 08:07 PM

malulu - thank you for the kent regeneration instruction. Can you also post the kati/ani instructions as well, i wonder is there much of a difference??

malulu

04/30/2008, 10:41 PM

lechee12,
the steps is about the same, i have it in a booklet, too many info to retype them here... however, i found a link that someone already post the essential pages out here: http://forum.petstore.com/Topic70811-14-5.aspx
good luck.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12444045#post12444045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lechee12
malulu - thank you for the kent regeneration instruction. Can you also post the kati/ani instructions as well, i wonder is there much of a difference??

artful-dodger

04/30/2008, 11:19 PM

Ryan...that was sort of the original thought...I had (and still have) quite a bit of bulk mixed resin. What I've found is that the stuff is basically lasting forever with this setup...I could easily go another year at this rate.

I am saving all the mixed bed resin and plan to separate it and recharge it...eventually, I will either take those two cannisters out of service or just run two cation and two anion...we'll see...

By the way...I've used two mixed bed cannisters for years...as #1 is exhausted, I move #2 to position #1 and then move a fresh cannister into the "polish" position. It doesn't use any more resin in the long run and it does give a cushion against one bad characteristics of DI...once it is exhausted (before the color is fully changed!) it starts releasing c*** back into the output water. You can easily get a higher TDS reading than your original tap water if you don't monitor carefully.

So, the final recommendation...get one of the permanent installation TDS monitors with two inputs...I didn't use the portable TDS monitor often enough...the permanent one lets you sample both input and output water in 2 seconds. Great investment whenever you do start replumbing!