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CRAWL
10/20/1999, 06:20 PM
I've been fortunate not to have problems with saltwater ich, until now. I treated with copper in Q tank along with hyposalinity. Appears to have done the job.

Question is, once the fish is completely quarantined and no more sign of ich for 3-4 days, should a 'freshwater dip' be performed before acclimating and returning him to main tank? Are the copper traces introduced to main tank nill enuf, without freshwater dip, to disipate without harming reef inhabitants?

[This message has been edited by CRAWL (edited 10-20-1999).]

Biosystems
10/20/1999, 10:36 PM
Crawl,

I would be very hesitant about returning any fish that is deemed free of parasite for only 3-4 days back to my display tank (although it would be hard to ever catch them in my display so I might be more biased). The parasites lifecycle is just so much longer than 3-4 days and dormancy can last much longer than this as well. All may appear well to the naked eye, but it most likely just is not the case. Try a few weeks without signs in the Q-tank and after cleaning it and removing the copper and hypo slowly back up, then look to see if your fish don't come down again with disease.
As far as the copper in the fish, they will secrete some in the short term, but in this case, a freshwater dip will not get rid of it either. I would not worry too much about this factor as low levels are present in Sea water and if you follow the previous advice you will have had time for it to be disipated in the Q-tank anyway. I have never been very successful with FW dips in stressed fish. They always seem to be more stressed/shocked after a FW dip and that is not something you want on a fish that has just recovered form disease. That of course is my opinion so you can take it for what it is worth.

HTH,
Tim

Sloeber
10/21/1999, 12:09 AM
CRAWL

Please forgive the relentless cutting...

"I've been fortunate not to have problems with saltwater ich, until now. I treated with copper in Q tank along with hyposalinity. Appears to have done the job."

~~ I'd be very hesitant to treat any fish with both hypo salinty and copper.

"Question is, once the fish is completely quarantined and no more sign of ich for 3-4 days,"

~~~ Fish need to be free of parasites for 3 - 4 weeks. was this a typo on your part? the lifecycle of ick indicates that it will fall of it's host in 3 - 4 days only to reappear in 7 - 10 days in a more intense infestation.

"should a 'freshwater dip' be performed before acclimating and returning him to main tank?"

~~~ Persoanlly, i really hate FW dips. there are the few instances that it does do what it is suppose to, but with crytocaryon i'd have to say you better off without. the overall stress it causes far out weighs the good it does, IMO. FWIW, a FW dip does not penetrate the fishes slime coat.

"Are the copper traces introduced to main tank nill enuf, without freshwater dip, to disipate without harming reef inhabitants?"

~~~ Personally, I use carbon to remove it from the q-tank while the fish is still in there. If your using water from the main tank for WC's, I think your all set. Continue with the WC's, run copper through the water and, if needed, a polyfilter. a polyfilter is great at removing copper. let the fish reside in the q-tank for an additional week or so to see if the parasite has a reinfestation. If it does, it will save you time of having to catch him.

~~~ let me also add this. ever since I got into reefs, I stopped q-tanking fish. while i ran the FO systems i did remove and treat fish in quaratine. but, since in a reef, i've left the sick fish be. combined with great water parameters, and a diet heavily enriched with vitamin supplements, EVERY fish has pulled through.

HTH

henry



[This message has been edited by hcs3 (edited 10-21-1999).]

billsreef
10/21/1999, 03:30 AM
CRAWL,

I think Henry summed things up pretty well, the only place I disagree with him is in not Q'ing fish going into a reef tank. There are some diseases out there considerably more devastating than ich even to otherwise healthy and happy fish. The risk's are enough that I would never add a fish to any tank without a Quarantine period.

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)

CRAWL
10/21/1999, 07:17 AM
Thank you all for your advices! :)

I will do, per your suggestions, and wait it out to make sure he doesn't come down with another case once salinity has been slowly restored to normal levels. If you suggest 3-4 wks., I will do so. Only problem is, even though no more signs of ich, he doesn't have his normal appetite yet. Only took to a couple of frozen brine, ignored the OSI flakes and frozen bloodworms.

I'm sure my problem came from mal-functional water heater that increased water temp without my adjusting the thermo-controller. When I noticed the problem, water temp was at 87°. I tried to slowly bring it back down after exchanging heaters out, but obviously not slow enough. I knew this was going to be a problem.

Again, thank you for your help! :)

Sloeber
10/21/1999, 10:06 AM
Hi CRAWL

first, let me address "billsreef". he is correct that q-tankin' fish is very important. also, i misquoted myself. fish do get q'ed before going into the reef. but, once in there, they stay there. this is of course only discussing cryptocaryon. other diseases are each handled in a case by case manner. sorry for the confusion.

your instance will work well. i've had my temp raise that much in a day or so. my sailfin tang was not pleased. but, by leaving him in the reef, and feeding heavily, it had no problem at all recovering on it's own. the stress from catching it and moving it - while already stressed - may be too much for the fish to handle. personally, i would have left it in there. just me.


HTH

henry

[This message has been edited by hcs3 (edited 10-21-1999).]

CRAWL
10/21/1999, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the clarification Henry. The ich problem only seemed to worsen after having watched my hippo tang for 2 days and was worried that he wouldn't recover. I was hoping by doing exactly what you mentioned, he would. But didn't want to chance it.

The deciding point was when I didn't see him one day swimming about. He was hiding in a barnacle and poked his head out enough for me to see his worsened condition. I picked up barnacle, tang and all, and placed him in Q tank. (of course, checking water temp and parameters on Q tank before doing so)

So, once you introduce a new fish to a reef tank, you're suggesting not to use a Q tank for treatment? I admit, trying to catch the ill one is only adding more stress to the situation as well as effecting the other inhabitants. And LR only complicates this process!

Question, do you have suggestion on foods that have proven to be more effective in this type of situation?

CRAWL
10/21/1999, 04:11 PM
Thanks for the scoop Henry! :)

I'll start using your method of vitamin enrichment today so by the time it's time to place the tang back into main tank, he won't be so vulnerable to another outbreak. If so, then he should be able to fend it off on his own without these drastic measures.(hopefully! :))

Sloeber
10/21/1999, 11:23 PM
Again, pardon the relentless cutting...

"Thanks for the clarification Henry. The ich problem only seemed to worsen after having watched my hippo tang for 2 days and was worried that he wouldn't recover. I was hoping by doing exactly what you mentioned, he would. But didn't want to chance it."

~~~ i can understand that. it took quite a bit for me not to remove my wrasse and my sailfin when i first added the tang into the tank. both broke out in cryptocaryon. but, i only have 1 20g q tank. i couldn't treat both. figuring that in general wrasses are pretty resistant to infestation, the choice would have been the tang. but to me, it didn't make much sense to chase a tang around a loaded 75g to put him in a 20g bare bones system - only to have to add him back at some point which most likely would have led to another outbreak. i just left both in. that was my decision. but i watched closely for weeks, months ensureing the infestation was on th decline and not coming back.

"The deciding point was when I didn't see him one day swimming about. He was hiding in a barnacle and poked his head out enough for me to see his worsened condition. I picked up barnacle, tang and all, and placed him in Q tank. (of course, checking water temp and parameters on Q tank before doing so)"

~~~ good decision. i would have done the same. there comes a point where we must intervine and assist in any way we know how. how are you going about the copper treatments?

"So, once you introduce a new fish to a reef tank, you're suggesting not to use a Q tank for treatment?"

~~~ not exactly. like i said, use your best judgement. if the fish is not lethargic, and has a good appetite, why stress it out? continue feeding well. let it recover on it's own, in the best possible conditions that you can give. if the show tank is a 100g and the q tank is a 100g, then i'd move it into the other 100g by itself. but most people are like me, a 20g or so used for qing. the size alone has stress written all over it.

"I admit, trying to catch the ill one is only adding more stress to the situation as well as effecting the other inhabitants. And LR only complicates this process!"

~~~ LOL. yes it does. i'm pictureing me when i was catching my cardinals - whom are easy compared to tangs. i had rock in the sump, rock in the refugium, rock in the fry tanks, even IO buckets. not pretty.

"Question, do you have suggestion on foods that have proven to be more effective in this type of situation?"

~~~ not necessarily "proven" per say, but maxed in vitamins. spirulina works well. i love to feed freeze-dried plankton. it is packed in protien, plus by being dry it soaks up vitamins really well. i soak it in 1ml of selcon for a few mintes. the plankton acts like a sponge and soaks it right up and doesn't release much upon hitting water. same with vita-chem or any other liquid vitamin supplement. another way of delievering the supplements is using live foods. locally i can get live black worms. a gather a spoonful - one feeding portion - and drop just small pinch of sea salt on them. this dehydrates them and causes them to drink. at this point, drop on the liquid vitamins. it dissappears rather quickly. however, the worms do not live long there after. feed shortly there after, like a few minutes. basically, don't match "pre-mixed" bacheds of the things. they stink when dead. they die in a matter of an hour or 2. of course, you could freeze selcon enriched black worms :)

HTH



[This message has been edited by hcs3 (edited 10-21-1999).]

Biosystems
10/22/1999, 12:49 AM
Henry: I was glad to see that you revised your statement to include just cryptocaryon. It is all too often that other parasites infect fish and these are misidentified by novices as the general term "ich". For a less experieinced aquarist I think it always prudent to move an infected fish into quaratine or treat the whole tank (quite a difficult task in a reef tank). In your case however, since you chose to leave a fish in the system, there really was no point in treating one and returning it to a tank that harbored an infection.

Crawl: I was just curious if the fish that you have in Q are the only fish from the display system. Are there other fish there during this time? If I read your post right these fish were infected in the display tank and transferred to the Q-tank.
Also be sure to include a good (fresh and stabilized) vitamin C supplement in the food. It will boost the immune system of the sick fish. Henry's delivery suggestions are the best way to get large amounts of vitamins directly to the fish. I realize Henry probably meant this, but do not use only Selcon as it is not a vitamin supplement-you need to add a good source of Vitamins such as Vita-chem and you may chose to supplement these further with stabilized Vit. C.

Tim

Larry M
10/22/1999, 06:42 AM
Well, ya learn something everyday. Selcon is not a vitamin supplement? I had to dig mine out to check, you are right Tim. I used to have both it and Vitachem around, but thought it was being redundant. Thanks!


------------------
Larry M

Visit Reef Central's Home Site at:
www.reefcentral.com (http://www.reefcentral.com)

CRAWL
10/22/1999, 07:22 AM
Tim- Yes, this was the only infected fish which was transferred to the Q tank. He is by himself in there. :( The other 2 fish which reside in main tank, showed no visible signs of infection and are quite active. So I didn't want to move them for treatment. (don't fix it if ain't broke method)

LFS carries Vita Chem. I'll stop and pick some up on my way home from work today.

Thanks Tim :)

Biosystems
10/22/1999, 12:07 PM
Larry: Selcon also contains B12 and Vit C, at low levels, but it is kind of weird that it does b/c these are water soluble vitamins and Selcon is a lipid environment. Selcon most importantly provides essential FA that are missing in foods that we feed and are critically necessary for proper development of many systems (especially neurological in developing fish-ask the marine breeders about mortality if you don't supplement). I have always been depressed that people always feed their Lions -guppies/goldfish/other FW fish as these fish do little to supply the necessary and proper nutrition that only SW fish provide as they only exist in SW fish and not FW. It was kind of like when people started eating farm raised catfish during that Omega3 health craze, but farm raised catfish never contained Omega3 b/c they were fed Purina catfish chow that wasn't supplemented with it. The only way they could truly get it was to eat fresh ocean caught fish.

Crawl: The reason I asked about the other fish remaining in the display tank is b/c although these fish may not show signs of disease they can potentially harbor the parasite or provide a host to cycle on and off in the absence of a more susceptable host. This condition can persist in a tank indefinitely without visible signs. In your case the plus is fish do have a crude memory system in their immune system (although not nearly as efficient as our own) so upon re-addition to your tank the treated fish will be afforded some protection- especially if you have included Vit. C supplements during the treatment in Q. If the problem is appetite add Vit B mixes as this will help stimulate their appetite if they feed on some.
A simple method that can be used on reintroduction that I have used with great success on blue tangs that were terribly affected by crypto was to add garlic oil (from the health supplement aisle) to the food for a week. This has by far been my most productive way of dealing with parasite infections in the display tank. Unlike capsacin treatments which causes the outer slime coat to be sloughed off, and thus the parasite (kind of not the best circumstances if you ask me, b/c now you have the animal ready for a serious re-infestation or infection by other pathogens) ingestion of garlic oil makes the fish not very amenable to attachment by the parasite. The fish I have treated must have been Italian ;) b/c they sure scarfed up the really smelly garlic oil treated food and cleared the infection soon afterward. Treatment for one week of feedings and retreatment once per month can completely prevent reinfestation-at least to the eye as I have not done necropsy on any fish yet as none have died.

HTH,
Tim

[This message has been edited by Biosystems (edited 10-22-1999).]

CRAWL
10/22/1999, 12:52 PM
Outstanding Tim. :) Vitamin B and Garlic oil, very interesting! You have provided a wealth of information here! :) I know fade2black will be interested in reading this as well.

I am concerned with the re-introduction of my hippo tang to my main tank. In the past, I have lost (2) hippo tangs in the 1st 48hrs of introduction. Plenty of hiding places, water quality - showed small trace of nitrates. Although I do seem to somehow maintain a 'steady' small trace of ammonia in my water (from 2 different test kits for confirmation), which doesn't seem to effect my corals or fish, but also doesn't seem to rise or fall.

As for my 2 other fish, I have a yellow tang and sebae clown.

Thanks Tim :)

Biosystems
10/22/1999, 01:41 PM
Crawl:
Hippos are naturally shy fish. Re-introduce with the lights off (since it is a re-introduction you can do so at lights out) and then let them come on in the morning. This will save much stress. Also don't do the FW dip prior to introduction and acclimate from one tank to the other as if it was a new purchase.

HTH,
Tim

CRAWL
10/22/1999, 10:02 PM
Thanks Tim! You got it! I ruled out the FW dip from your first advice. No sense in adding stress when stress is the last thing we want here. Your help has been tremendous through this, as well as Henry's. I will keep you posted of the progress once introduction is complete.