Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"

[algaeguy]

miatawnt2b:

I have to agree with Barry about the potential for phosphate levels in the Tufa. It can be nasty!

I believe that you are correct in asseting that most of your denitrification will occur in the rock itself (at least that's MY theory!). I don't believe that removing the volume of water that you are talking about should have any detrimental effect on the denitrification process. BTW, Barry's manifold idea is really cool!

Again, this is a theory, based upon my experience, but I believe that there is some validity to it. I don' think that disturbing a rubble zone layer for cleaning is as disruptive or potentially harmful as disturbing the anoxic layers of a DSB, for example. Of course, as we've mused about on this thread repeatedly, the potentially higher biodiversity and cryptic animal population of a rubble zone may more efficiently make use of detritus for food sources, so as long as the amount of detritus accumulating in/under the rubble zone is not excessive, and if good attention is paid to overall husbandry, I'll wager that your water quality will not suffer over time!

Do keep us posted on your new tank' progress!

Scott

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6647030#post6647030 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by algaeguy
Again, this is a theory, based upon my experience, but I believe that there is some validity to it. I don' think that disturbing a rubble zone layer for cleaning is as disruptive or potentially harmful as disturbing the anoxic layers of a DSB, for example. Of course, as we've mused about on this thread repeatedly, the potentially higher biodiversity and cryptic animal population of a rubble zone may more efficiently make use of detritus for food sources, so as long as the amount of detritus accumulating in/under the rubble zone is not excessive, and if good attention is paid to overall husbandry, I'll wager that your water quality will not suffer over time!

Scott

Thanks Scott, I just don't think you can bring up the bio-diversity part here, often enough. I think it is actually not only beneficial, but possibly even crucial to the success with this, especially if you don't want to "blow and vacuum" all the time, which I suspect would be detrimental to a considerable portion of the organisms that we want to promote.

I'm not trying to make it sound "touchy", but we need to understand our objectives and keep an eye on critter popupation, to keep our "ducks in a row".

This brings to mind either the RUGF under the rubble, or the "void sweeping" canister, or similar to handle "bottom detritus" autom aticly.

Just thinking out loud again.

> Barry :)

[Konadog]

Congratulations Scott on becoming Januarys Thread of the Month!

[barryhc]

GO SCOTT GO ! ! ! ! !

Cogratulations Scott, I hope this thread continues for a very long time. You deserve it, AND all the contributing posters as well !

> Barry :) :)

[Rip Current]

What about replacing the bio balls in a wet dry with rubble?
With a slow flow, and rubble the right size and porosity.

just a thought...........

[Tunguska]

"External Rubble Zone"

**pretend indignation** We are still in the anecdotal stage of our inquiry, and we're already being asked "Can you make it portable?" :p

Seriously though, I think it's a great idea. If you try it, let us know how it goes!

[Tunguska]

BTW, congrats, Scott!

[algaeguy]

Wow- "Thread of The Month"- I think everyone deserves a pat on the back for keeping this discussion so civilized and informative! We have a great group and a lot of interesting material! I'm glad that everyone feels comfortable enough to throw out new ideas without fear of being flamed. Seemingly commonplace, obvious stuff might not be so obvious after all- and might even be the key to the next big idea!

Just because people have been using rubble for a long time doesn't mean that the idea isn't new or beneficial. I think the key is in what our GOALS are for using rubble; wether it's trying to increase biodiversity, experiment with denitrification, or simply trying an alternative biotope to emulate. No holding back, gang...Let the ideas flow!


Rip Current- Interesting thought about the live rock in a wet/dry. It does, however, remind me of some of the trickle filters that I saw in the 80's. Lots of different media was being used, including dolomite, calcite, crushed coral. etc.

Essentially, the rocks are becoming bioballs. Just another substrate for bacterial growth. I bet that it will be subject to the same "shortcomings" as bioballs, such as accumulation of nitrate, and probably not acheive as much biodiversity as submerged rock. However, you mentioned lower flow and lots of porosity...Interesting, and probably worth testing out! However, if you light it, I wonder if you could keep some intertidal animals in there? Maybe partially submerged and part as a trickle substrate.

On the other hand, lots of folks have been placing rock/rubble in the "wet" section of their trickle filters for years, and I've seen amazing diversity in this technique.

Here's a thought- a rubble zone refugium. Again, not new or novel, but possibly underutilized?

You'd essentially plumb a small tank in line with your system, but the tank would be packed with rubble and seeded with pods, etc. No sand or macroalgae to speak of. You probably wouldn't even need to light it. In addition to providing a settling area for detritus, it could serve as a cryptic zone and supplemental food production facility. In fact, if it is determined that rubble zones foster denitrification, this may be an option in place of the remote DSB's that people talk about now and then. I'm sure that someone has tried this already...

Finally- what about the RUGF in the rubble refugium? Any advantages?

Keep the ideas flowing, everyone. If we keep this brainstorming session going, I'm sure we'll come up with some new applications for this technique.

I was also pondering about the chance of increased odds of successfully keeping multiple Firefish or Pseudochroomids in rubble systems, because of the greater number of hiding places and "territory" this substrate may afford. Anyone doing this? I know that my Blennies like this type of setup; I'm thinking that this may also be a good way to keep some Centropyge species in groups as well.

Keep those thoughts coming!

Scott

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6654496#post6654496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by algaeguy
I'm glad that everyone feels comfortable enough to throw out new ideas without fear of being flamed. Seemingly commonplace, obvious stuff might not be so obvious after all- and might even be the key to the next big idea!
I think this has been the big winner here. Scott has allowed us to have a "THINK TANK" ! ! ! Pun Intended ! !

Just because people have been using rubble for a long time doesn't mean that the idea isn't new or beneficial. I think the key is in what our GOALS are for using rubble; wether it's trying to increase biodiversity, experiment with denitrification, or simply trying an alternative biotope to emulate.
I think this is very important also, to realize that there isn't a "single objective" in these various considerations. This is why many different methods can be equally effective but for different purposes. Stating the intended objective(s), would be helpful as well.

I was also pondering about the chance of increased odds of successfully keeping multiple Firefish or Pseudochroomids in rubble systems, because of the greater number of hiding places and "territory" this substrate may afford. Anyone doing this? I know that my Blennies like this type of setup; I'm thinking that this may also be a good way to keep some Centropyge species in groups as well.
I REALLY like this part, it is what drives nearly all my investigations into Reef Keeping Methods. I love the great bio-diversity that is in our oceans, and I want to keep a wider range of it in my tank than common "wisdom" has been allowing us.

The Rubble Bottom, and other offerings here, are giving us the opportunity to expand our Reef Keeping experience.

Thanks again Scott ! > Barry :)

[miatawnt2b]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6640458#post6640458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
OK . . .


Over the top of what ? Is something between the manifold and the Rubble ?


How much monthly water change are you anticipating ?


What substrate ? On the Tufa, I'm not as familiar with that as I should be, but I believe it is extremely light weight ? At the very least do some research or testing to determine its Phosphate concentration.

> Barry :)


The rubble is going to sit directly on the manifold. I usually do religious 3 gal/week water changes in my 55 with great results so far. So every 4th week I'll take the water from the manifold instead of my normal routine of blowing ditrus off the rocks and vaccuming. I am thinking about the same in my 90 even though there is more area, I don't plan on increasing the bioload that much. water tests will always tell the tale though. I have had good luck using dry tufa before. (I let the pieces soak in the toilet fill tank for a week before I add them to the tank) I've never noticed any ill effects... I didn't realize I should be aware of phospates with the tufa. Maybe I should look into alternatives.

-J

[lillibirdy]

OK someone needs to hurry up and try that mulitple firefish idea, I am loving that thought!!!!

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6656642#post6656642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lillibirdy
OK someone needs to hurry up and try that mulitple firefish idea, I am loving that thought!!!!

DITTO ! ! ! :)

I'm not "up" on this yet as much as I should be, because I'm still trying to get far enough with the substrate, "grain" size, RUGF, Wasting Plenum, Rubble, RDSB, RRB ( thats Remote Rubble Bottom ) :D , etc. , but I think that at least we could say that the Rubble effectively increases the "size" or "area" that the animals occupy. I think that is what Scott is hoping for. Me too ! :D

Many of the smaller bethnic fish, that myself and others are interested in are described as being territorial, and requiring "X" amount of space to be "happy" or not unduly "pestered" in.

Two or more Rubble zones, might allow a species to think that his "individual zone" is his, and be satisfied, more so, than if the whole bottom is Rubble, and he can't define "his" fence. :idea:

Rubble Bottom, the great "Tank expander" ! I hope so. :)

> Barry :beachbum: :thumbsup: :p

[rsteagall]

The way I see it is this whole rubble bottom idea is pretty much the same thing that garf.org has been doing for years. I mean, garf's grunge is basically rubble bottom bagged and sold.

http://www.garf.org/GRUNGEPLUS1/SHOW/index.html

Everyone has presented good ideas, but that slideshow above should define what a rubble bottom is. Its merely a place to create a "Cryptic Zone" inside your aquarium.

When someone asks what kind of sandbed you have, I forsee a future term of "CZR", that will stand for "Cryptic Zone Rubble" sandbed. Or maybe just "CR" for cryptic rubble... I think I like that better. :) One less letter :lol:

[lillibirdy]

I am unfamiliar with Garf grunge. Is it really as big as the rubble we are talking about? My rubble is mostly 2-3 inches, some tinier, some larger...

[barryhc]

No, it isn't. The Garf "Cryptic Zone" Rubble is from about 1/8" to 1/2" as far as rock, with a few pieces, and some shells, that get up to 3/4".

I got a suction cup and a couple of broken fittings in mine too.

The www.Garf.org site has a tremendous wealth of information, and I understand that they have some fantastic frags you can purchase as well.

The level of organization has been "abysmal" over there for quite some time, and I can't say if it has improved recently or not.

In any case, if you are going to purchase anything alive from them, be sure that you have them identify the shipping method, and demand that you are notified immediately about the "departure" of your package.

The pods and worms and stars and "stuff" that they show in their pictures, just aren't showing up in the Grunge packages lately.

> Barry :)

[barryhc]

The Garf Grunge is at least 2/3 dark gray "mud" as well. It is not predominantly "rubble" regardless of the specific size.

> Barry :) :beachbum: :thumbsup: :thumbdown :D

[rsteagall]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6658080#post6658080 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
The Garf Grunge is at least 2/3 dark gray "mud" as well. It is not predominantly "rubble" regardless of the specific size.

> Barry :) :beachbum: :thumbsup: :thumbdown :D


I didn't realize garfs had that much mud, but over time, anyone's CRZ/CR/CZR would have some "mud" as well. Stuf is just going to break down and you can't stop that.

I guess there should be a poll on what size is considered rubble. I would certainly consider subsrate with any significant amount or majority of rock chunks of 1/2" to 2" to be considered rubble. IMHO if you get much bigger than that, your simply dealing with a bare bottom and live rock setup.

[algaeguy]

rsteagall:

Interesting thoughts on rubble sizing. I suppose, as I think we mentioned early in the thread, you could make the argument that rubble bottom tanks with larger rock pieces could be a form of BB (at least aesthetically)...But I think the similarity ends there. We're talking about not being afraid of detritus accumulation in the rubble zone, as it may actually be of benefit to the organisms living and "working" in there! Yes, we embrace protein skimming, etc., but I think it can be safely stated that we're departing form the "conventional" BB methodology somewhat. Perhaps the "rubble bottom" is really a sort of "fusion" of several schools of thought.

I do like the GARF stuff, and you are right- they have been advocating this type of thing for some time. However, as we've discussed, although the cryptic zone idea is a very important part of the rubble zone methodology, it is also a biotope to model. BTW- I love the "CZR" term...!

I suppose it can also be argued that rubble could be anything from the 1/2" size that you mention, all the way up to small chunks of rock. My thinking is that even 4"-5" pieces of broken slab can, if stacked on the bottom of the tank, be considered "rubble", or at least comprise a "rubble zone".

I think that we can stretch the working definition of "rubble zone" to something like: " A concentration of various-sized pieces of calcareous materials, loosely stacked upon each other at varying depths for the purpose of increasing biodiversity, creating a functional habitat for fishes, encouraging the production of supplemental food sources, and fostering natural (denitrification) processes."

Yikes- that's a seriously long definition! But, I think it covers some of the stuff we've been disussing here. "CZR" certainly is easier to write! LOL

In the end, I guess we really cannot take ourselves too seriously- we're just a bunch of fish geeks trying to have fun! And I tell ya- the ideas in this thread are just soo cool to see!

Lots of different ways to run a rubble zone system, I think!

Keep it comin'!

Scot

[rsteagall]

Oh yea man, no doubt... its all about the fun. I know I spend more time on the forums researching than I do sitting looking at my tank. I'm about to build an experimental tank and will probably seed it with something like garf or just by getting a scoop of sand from everyone's refugium I know and trying to add as many detritivours as I can. I'd love to see a bunch of micro serpent stars in a czr system.

I think your definition is right on with what I had in mind. Basically not fine stuff or bare bottom, but a mixture of stuff where a majority of the makeup is of a certain size not to mistake it for sand/crushed aragonite or too big as to call it a bare bottom w/LR.

[barryhc]

I think we should get into the "production of supplemental sources" part of this. It is a large part of the advantage of "Rubble Bottom", to generate some good "faunal bio-diversity".

The question is, just what "fauna" are we looking for. A "tasty snack" is one answer, but where do we get these, and what do we call them.

Another very important aspect here, is to find animals that are detrivores, so that they do our cleaning chores for us. Detrivores which are also tasty snacks would be pretty slick as well. I'm very interested in these animals, but haven't found that much info yet.

The common answer is that "they" will self populate from your live rock, and to some degree I'm sure this is true, but we could help them along if we knew what "they" were, and where to get them.

> Barry :)

[Paul B]

The question is, just what "fauna" are we looking for. A "tasty snack" is one answer, but where do we get these, and what do we call them.

I collect amphipods by the hundreds or thousands in the summer, they are all over my boat. They seem to meet the criteria of a detrivore and tasty snack. I can't find any in my tank now so I don't know if they were all eaten or if they can't breed at tropical temperatures.
Paul

[engagg]

There are a few online shops that sell detrivore kits, Ie pods, worms, micro stars. **************** and inland aquatics are two that come to mind but I am sure there are many more.

How often do we need to replenish these critters is one question. Another is how much do they eat versus how much they poop into the system? I know some of these come off LR when cycling with the rock, but if we cook the rock how much do we loose? I know on the past when I ran my 33long fishless for a while I had pods and minishrimp like mad only took them about a month to populate the tank to where you could see them everywhere.

Greg

[engagg]

whoa, my apologies didn't know I could not type in nonsponsors websites.

[algaeguy]

I've also been experimenting with various "mud" additives to see if they really do add any minerals that help foster the reproduction of these animals.

An interesting point that you bring up, engagg, is the replenishment/reproduciton rate of these various creatures. I think that , although our rubble systems may help propagate these creatures, the fish that we like to keep in them migh do an equally good job of eating them!

Interesting dynamics come into play, for sure!

Barry- I think that the various species of worms that we see in detritivore kits are probably the most common creatures we'd want, but I'll be that mysids and other shrimp may help, as well. Another group of animals I'd consider deliberately stocking in our systems are sponges. Within the various cryptic areas that a rubble system affords are lots of good places for sponges to hide and grow! And, they have the added benefit of providing a source of supplemental "filtration"!

Anyone keeping starfish of any type in rubble-dominated systems?

Keep the ideas flowing!

Scott

[jnowell]

Great Thread! I've been thinking along the same idea for my upcoming seahorse tank. I was considering having one side sand, fluidized by a RUGF with rubble on top blended into another side with sand / GARF grunge sitting on top of a plenum. Kinda the best of all three worlds in my opinion. Obviously with seahorses, pod production was my motivator, but the filtration that "should" result would be great IME.

I bought some of the "frag" rocks from reeferrocks.com (cheap, and not chipped off a living reef somewhere). They are beautiful pieces of calcium carbonate rock, already sized to 2-4", you might check into that if you need more.

I'm in the process of converting my old Oceanic 58g from coral propagation to seahorse habitat, so excuse the horid look of this tank right now, but here is a pick of some of the pre-made rubble that I speak of that i threw in to cycle while I sell off most of the coral. I think this pic represents about $10 worth :D BTW - The stuff on the bottom was added 2 days ago, the small pile behind the zoanthids on the rack is about 2 weeks old. Might be an economical solution for anyone wanting to try this.

Jason

http://www.wfrs.org/rc/rubble.jpg

[Paul B]

Anyone keeping starfish of any type in rubble-dominated systems?

I don't really have a rubble substrate, I don't really know what to call it, but I have small starfish under the rocks, two different kinds, one is brittle stars and one is a smaller thicher one.
I did not put these animals here, they must be hitchhikers and since I have not added coral or rock in a few years they must be reproducing.
Paul

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6688850#post6688850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by engagg
whoa, my apologies didn't know I could not type in nonsponsors websites.

IS THIS FOR REAL ? ? ? ? ?

I can't believe it. Tell me I'm dreaming, PLEASE ! !

> Barry :confused:

[engagg]

Barry,


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by engagg
whoa, my apologies didn't know I could not type in nonsponsors websites.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



IS THIS FOR REAL ? ? ? ? ?

I can't believe it. Tell me I'm dreaming, PLEASE ! !

> Barry


I don't know if its for real or not but when my post came back the website I typed in was shown as ***********.

Sorry for being a bit OT with that.

Has anyone thought of any ways to keep populations of pods, mysids and such up? I was think about putting some area with small size rubble so that these critters might have a refuge within there refuge.

For the 75 I am currently working on, I am going to utilize a rubble bottom for about 1/3 of the substrate and a sand bed for seagrasses in the rest. Sump will also have a dsb. Still working out some of the kinks and will hopefully be testing the plumbing in the next day or so.

I would not have tried a partial rubble bottom without all the brainstorming from you guys, really a great idea. My last tank had a lot of rubble mised with coarse substrate all the down to fine southdown, the creatures had lots of places to hide and the tank looked nice. I believe you may get some greater organism diversity with this type of setup and it will be interesting to see what happens with the new tank.

Greg

[rustybucket145]

A few months ago I put some pieces of 'dry' live (dead) rock in my sump to let it age some and go through some algae stages before introducing it to my main tank. Over the course of a week several amiphods, copepods and even a few mysis shrimp took up residence in this rock. Since the rock was previously 'dry' these guys could not be hitch-hikers they had to come from within my tank. Well when the time passed on the LR it was added to my main tank. But...... What could I put in my sump to attract these beneficial inhabitants.

Well... After searching some LFS's I bought a bag of shells/ Coral pieces (dry). The size of the pieces ranged from Silver Dollar to dime in various shapes and sizes. I then placed about 4" of this 'Rubble' in the bottom of my sump. Within a week there were a few amiphods and a slight accumulation of detrius. I added a few hermit crabs and a small variety of snails to the sump. They seemed to at least help with detrius removal.

I just found this thread today and I have only been a member for a short time but this thread really hits on some of the concepts that I was trying to accomplish. I basically wanted an area where larger pods and organisms could live and raise young. Because of the high flow of my sump sand was not an option and live rock was to expensive/cool to put in a sump (or mine at least).

Are there any problems that I will encounter with this method.? Is detrius buildup going to be a concern for me?

The organisims are doing great and several different species can be identified and different forms of life come out at different times of the day and can be viewed.

My levels have remained the same throughout this addition of rubble All 0, Calcium 450, PH 8.2.

Should I consider adding some other forms of life to this rubble bed to keep the detrius stirred up? If so what?

I would love to hear any input that anyone has on this matter and I will share all my experiences with the rubble.

[ddoering]

Another place to get calcium carbonate rubble rock is HiRocks.
www.hirocks.com
You can get golf ball to baseball sized pieces, and if you need a ton literally you can get one of their big totes.

Doug

[wrassie86]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6651071#post6651071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rip Current
What about replacing the bio balls in a wet dry with rubble?
With a slow flow, and rubble the right size and porosity.

just a thought...........

I tried this a couple years ago,the end result was rising nitrate.Maybe if the rubble would have been sumerged it would have been different.But no different than bioballs.

On another note the 120g i am setting up will be a rubble bottom from the start.But only the front half for now.:)

[engagg]

How about a rubble refegium? Anyone tried one? Could be a great place to grow some critters.

[rustybucket145]

I think I will throw some in my refugium tonight and see what happens

[castorpollux]

i use rubble refugiums, I was planning on trying GARF grunge on my next tank, its all rubble from live rock stations from all over the world, i haven't tried it nor do i know anyone who has but I guess I will be the guinea pig.

i used to mix aragonite into my live sand to make it act as somewhat of an anchor in my high aquariums so thats another thought with high calcium your sand will turn somewhat solid and act as a great bed for bacteria.

[castorpollux]

i use rubble refugiums, I was planning on trying GARF grunge on my next tank, its all rubble from live rock stations from all over the world, i haven't tried it nor do i know anyone who has but I guess I will be the guinea pig.

i used to mix aragonite into my live sand to make it act as somewhat of an anchor in my high aquariums so thats another thought with high calcium your sand will turn somewhat solid and act as a great bed for bacteria.

[barryhc]

DOH ! !

Read the last page of this thread, for an "intro" on Garf.

> Barry :D

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6704087#post6704087 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by castorpollux
i used to mix aragonite into my live sand to make it act as somewhat of an anchor in my high aquariums so thats another thought with high calcium your sand will turn somewhat solid and act as a great bed for bacteria.

I've been doing everything I can to avoid any clumping, and you want to make the bed more solid for bacteria ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? :bigeyes:

Are you serious ? :p

> Barry :beachbum:

[algaeguy]

rustybucket- do share your experiences with your rubble zone. I think that you'll find that the "usual" detritivorous fishes and inverts will probably do the job. I find my Centropyge angel, Tang, Blennies and my wrasses spend a great deal of time picking around in the rubble zone.

I think that the detritus issue is very important, but we might be overly paranoid about detritus in the hobby. Sure, excesses are problematic, but I'm hypothesizing that some detritus is beneficial for the overall biodiversity of the tank. Overall good husbandry is the ticket here, like in any system.

I think that it's safe to say that rubble bottoms are not about scrupulously clean conditions like barebottom systems afford. They are specifically geared towards creating biodiversity and fostering more natural foraging behaviours in fishes. It's very cool seeing the fishes pick among the rubble (and sand, if you have it).

It's really cool to see pods and other creatures running around in the rubble, too!

Keep sharing!

Scott

[BrianPlankis]

Well, my big tank is still 2-5 years away, but I've already started planning it. I've been wanting to do something other than DSB and don't like the look of BB or starboard. This looks like the perfect solution for me!

It will most likely be an in-wall tank with two sides exposed to viewing. I do want to keep some pearly headed jawfish in the big tank, so I will use acrylic to form a small area on the lower traffic side of the tank for them to dig their burrows in a small DSB.

I would like to avoid the RUGF, instead I plan on placing a large piece of eggcrate on top of 2" pieces of PVC holding it off the bottom and evenly distributing the weight. The eggcrate will stop short of the front/side glass by about 6-8" and the remaining area between the eggcrate and glass will be filled by 3-4" of rubble. LR will be stacked on top of the eggcrate.

Basically I'm hoping it will look like the very edge of a reef, with the rubble zone giving way to the sand in one corner of the tank with the jawfish popping up from time to time :) I will probably put one piece of LR overhanging the sand (but not resting on it) to make the jawfish happier and block high flow from hitting the sand.

The main circulation for the tank will probably be Tunze or the new Vortech pumps. I was thinking of having one Vortech on the bottom glass and surrounding it with larger pieces of LR so it will be hidden from view but it would produce a jet of water going straight up (obviously not too hard to spray my lights).

Any thoughts on how to improve this design?

I also would like to add how "nice" this thread is, it is rare to have such a non-flaming thread and I like to read this type of thread :)

Brian

[barryhc]

Good thoughts Brian. Consider putting two outlets from either 2 pumps that alternate by timers etc. , or 2 outlets from an OceansMotion valve that extend under the egg crate with "90's", and point not quite at each other from opposite ends of your under crate space.
This will give you an upwelling wave action, and a fairly well cleaned bottom space as well. The wave action will be adequate for most of your animals ( maybe 2/3 ), and make the remaining more specialized flow requirements for certain animals easier to accomplish.

> Barry :)

[Konadog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6712633#post6712633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CirolanidHunter
... I was thinking of having one Vortech on the bottom glass and surrounding it with larger pieces of LR so it will be hidden from view but it would produce a jet of water going straight up (obviously not too hard to spray my lights).
Brian, I am currently trying to get a Beta Tester to do this for me. I plan on doing the same thing. I have tested this idea a year ago using a SEIO, with great results. I am setting up my large tank this weekend and had to get measurements as to what size holes to cut in the stand top and starboard so that I can try this idea when they become available. My thoughts are since these pumps can run on a battery backup, is that they will create great surface exchange when the tank is down during short power interruptions.

[rustybucket145]

Well two days ago I added some rubble (shells of various shapes and sizes) mostly the size ranging from Silver Dollar to Dime. I added the rubble on top of my DSB in my Refugium/Propagation tank. I only added the rubble to a front corner of the tank and only about two cups of it. Within a day I noticed quite large population of copepods congragating around the rubble pile and on the glass around it as well. So it seems to be doing its job.

I should state that I have a tremendous population of pods established already but they do seem to be more prolific around the rubble zone. I even watched several Mating rituals between the pods in this area. There were also a couple of Amiphods spotted in this rubble this morning.

[jumpincactus]

I am under the understanding that a layer of live sand and some peices of rubble are ok but due to the complexity of cleaning the rubble it is best to just keep the rubble to a few various places for looks.

As for having a bare bottom or using live sand, some industry pros seem to think if you are going to use live sand 1-3" is best. They state that with a 1-3" layer it actually aids in water quality as the sand develops a layer of de-nitrifying bacteria. The key is to use good circulation to keep the sands top layer well oxygenated.

The trick they say to keep the sand clean are burrowing type fish such as gobes. wrasses, etc. Snails are also great and some brittle star fish are highly recomended.

[rsteagall]

jumpincactus, whats being discussed is learning to live with ditritus build up in a rubble zone letting whatever creatures that may live there take care of the rest. Having a rubble zone would require or request no cleanup. Due to the size of the rubble, ditritus should easily fall to the glass.

-Ryan

[Tunguska]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6721088#post6721088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jumpincactus
I am under the understanding that a layer of live sand and some peices of rubble are ok but due to the complexity of cleaning the rubble it is best to just keep the rubble to a few various places for looks.

As for having a bare bottom or using live sand, some industry pros seem to think if you are going to use live sand 1-3" is best. They state that with a 1-3" layer it actually aids in water quality as the sand develops a layer of de-nitrifying bacteria. The key is to use good circulation to keep the sands top layer well oxygenated.

The trick they say to keep the sand clean are burrowing type fish such as gobes. wrasses, etc. Snails are also great and some brittle star fish are highly recomended.

Well, that's the general idea for keeping a SSB, but we're thinking outside the box here! :D
A 1-3" depth will not, however, cause denitrification, at least not in any measureable sense. Denitrification occurs in areas where there is a general lack of oxygen, which is why the depth of sand (4"+) in a DSB is necessary.

It seems to be the general consensus here that the small amount of detritus that tends to collect in rubble piles are actually somewhat desireable as a food source to pods and other micro-organisms.

[DesertBandits]

please read the whole thread before posting, and notice you are in the advanced area. 1-3in sand sounds like good beginner advice to keep you away from problems, but to say that that is the only way to have a successful reef is essentialy a mythology.

This is one of the most cutting edge ideas in reefkeeping, even thougth its been going on for about 30 years (Paul B's tank). The fact is that this is a totally different system from ssb, dsb,and bb. The same rules for those systems don't apply to this. Its already been proven to work, and proven to not have a harmful detrius build up even in the extreme long term.

There are many ways to set up a successful reef tank. The virtue of this method seems to be that it breeds large amounts of micro fauna, as well as its unique aesthetic. Realize that the advance forum is about what is outside the box.

[algaeguy]

Let's not be too hard on jumpincactus. His observations are consistent with contemporary thought on reefkeeping, but they may or may not be hard and fast "rules". I think general husbandry and maintenance procedures can assure some degree of success with most any technique. Of course, this thread is about pushing the "state of the art" just a bit.

As this is sort of a "brainstorming session" on an alternative methodology, lets embrace all of the observations everyone makes, even though they may seem obvious. I think that we can take something from almost everything that has been presented so far!

I'm glad that we seem to be in agreement about the detritus issue. I still wish there was some study somewhere analyzing exactly what is in the detritus that accumulates (or does not accumulate, as the case may be) within our systems. I do think it might be time to take the "detritus boogyman" out in the town square to pelt him with a few stones (or rubble, as the case may be!).

I've read about Peter Wilkens and his success in keeping Dendronepthia and other hard-to-keep corals by regularly stirring his sandbed to liberate organics. I'm suret hat in a rubble bottom, similar stuff is found, but may be it may utilized differently by the animals that reside within the rubble zone.

I know a lot of the anti-detritus people are concerned about phosphates accumulating in their systems, but I still wonder about the effects of small accumulations of detritus in cryptic areas. Are they really all that bad? Don't get me wrong- I'm not advocating lax maintenance, but I do proffer that accepting and working WITH some of the natural processes that occur in our systems, such as detritus production, can actually help us embrace a more complete biotope. Perhaps detritus doesn't have to be exported entirely through physical removal to be rendered harmless...perhaps it merely needs to be more fully utilized.

Sure, there may be localized phosphate sources that could contribute to some algae growth, but I suspect that a good balance of detritivorous animals can help utilize this material and further break it down without jeapordizing water quality. The fact that Paul has been able to maintain an all rubble bottom system successfully for three decades attests to not only his husbandry skills, but the potentially minimal bad effects of detritus on water quality.

Those of us that are using all-rubble bottoms or rubble zones along with other substrates should definitely document the water parameters within our systems, particularly the pH, phosphate and nitrate levels that interest us so much. If we can see long-term positive results from several systems of these types, we may have at least some anecdotal evidence that the concept works just fine in the long term, and is a valid alternative methodology, not just an experiment!

Anyways- I can't tell you how proud I am of each and every reefer who has stopped by to share his or her thoughts on this thread! Together, we're really looking into some neat ideas with an open mind and a common interest!

Don't be shy! Keep sharing and putting those ideas out there! Together, we are truly accomplishing what RC was designed for- the discussion and dissemination of reefkeeping methods for the benefit of all!

Thanks- keep it rollin'!

Scott

[rsteagall]

speaking of keeping it going, anyone have pictures yet of their rubble zone or even deep rubble zone? Post a few pics if you do. Visually, I'm interested in seeing what some of you have done.

[Paul B]

I've read about Peter Wilkens and his success in keeping Dendronepthia and other hard-to-keep corals by regularly stirring his sandbed to liberate organics. I'm sure that in a rubble bottom, similar stuff is found, but may be it may utilized differently by the animals that reside within the rubble zone.

I also do this because in any system, no matter what you do there will be detritus, Is that a bad thing? No. I think too much emphasis is put on detritus removal to the point of fanatacism. Detritus has a few stages, I'm sure as soon as it is formed when it is still made from fish waste and dead bacteria it has some impact on the water, but very soon, within hours I would assume, it becomes more or less inert. Organic material can not last long in a warm wet envirnment full of bacteria.
I have heard that it is a nutrient trap, I don't see how.
I do not see any detritus in my tank but if I stir it, I will see a lot of it. My nitrates are zero, I don't know what my phosphate is or anything else because I can tell by experience that whatever it is, it is not detrimental.

We should sweep our floors and also remove detritus but lets not get crazy. You would be very surprised if you saw what was growing in your rock. I clean my rock by using a diatom filter with a restriction on the outflow hose, I blow across the rocks and the amount of "stuff" that comes out of some of those holes is amazing. If this was affecting water quality, I would have a sewer.

One more thing, I lifter my UG filter plates about 18 months ago to see what was under there, That was the first time I did that in 25 years. If detritus was that dangerous, should anything live in that tank?
Have a great day.
Paul

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Feb_10-5.JPG

[jnowell]

Great stuff Paul!

I can't speak for 30 years of success over here. But after reading this thread right before I re-aquascaped my tank for seahorses, I decided to give a rubble zone a go. SH's eat pods, and the 58g tank was previously used for coral propagation, so it's been a predator free zone for them for about 2 years. Lot's O pods are there to say the least.

Here's my interesting observation before the re-arrangement. This tank rarely if ever got fed anything, maybe a little phytoplankton (live home grown nannochloropsis occulata). This only happened every few weeks at best when I thought about it, or had some extra from my clownfish breeding setup.

When I tore it down, there was TONS of detritus, everywhere, under everything I moved, inside and on top of everything I touched. This tank has had good husbandry, and ALL parameters were stable the entire two years. The corals grew very well, and I never lost an animal (outside of a few snails to the hermit crabs). So, a two year old, well maintained, healthy tank that was rarely fed anything, accumulated a good amount of detritus on it's own, and stayed very healthy.

Next, I re-did the tank for seahorses. Now I have a low flow tank with a rubble zone...uh oh, I'm breaking all the rules here! Well, it's be runnning for several weeks now, so I decided to have a look around the rubble zone and stir things up a bit. Almost every pod in the tank was in the RZ, and the detritus was undetectable, the water really didn't even get cloudy. I have been feeding the tank pretty heavy to prepare it for the bio load of 6 seahorses, and there is nothing but pods and hermits in there there to eat the food. (just added two peppermint shrimp, but they were too late to have any effect).

Before anyone says it, I realize a few weeks is nothing, but the flow is set up so that it should blow any extra junk into the rubble pile. The pods seem to be more prolific in there too, I would occasionally see smaller amphipods running around, but not that often. Last night I saw probably 20-25 "newborns" in one short sitting. Could be a coincidence, but I don't think so.

I'll put up some pics tonight of the rubble zone, it's basically just a continuation of the rock wall, about 6-8" out on top of the sand bed (which is 2"). I'll keep coming back with updates periodically, and everyone else should do the same. Paul has already proven the long term viability of such of a system, but it would be cool to see and hear about everyone elses experience.

For what it's worth, it looks really nice, and is a fun area to watch. Many tiny brittle stars, bristle worms, pods, and mysis shrimp cruising around everywhere. Most of those creatures, and most of the rubble, came from GARF grunge that was added about 1 year ago.

What a thread Scott, good job!

Jason

[algaeguy]

jnowell:

Thanks for sharing your experience!

As Paul has mentioned, if detritus in and of itself was a huge detriment to water quality, it seems as though we'd see a lot more in the way of disasters with rubble bottom and rubble-zone-incorporating systems. And the "low-flow-rubble-bottom" seems like a neat idea, too. I don't think that super flow is an absolute requirement for this kind of system. I think that the fact that you can run insanely high flow rates without substrate blowing all over is just another feature of the concept, but certainly not a "rule"...No rules here- just ideas!

The fact that detritus appears in most every system over time makes me wonder about the perceived advantages of "cooking" rock. I'm not trying to provoke those who sucessfully employ this method, but I'm starting to be skeptical about any long-term benefit of this process. I don't think that there is anything wron with the concept, but it seems that our thoughts are in direct opposition to the idea, and systems seem to be working in both the long and short term.

If detritus can actually benefit a system in some way, I'd be hesitant to employ such a "sterilization" technique before using the rock in a rubble-based system. I suppose just the standard "curing" process would do. Once again, I'm not advocating neglect or lack of good husbandry, but I am advocating that fanatic cleanliness may not be essential; in fact- may be detrimental to a sucessful rubble system. Skimming, water changes, activated carbon, etc. all have their places. One thing that we do get from our bare bottom friends is an appreciation for sound maintenance, but the similarities seem to start diverging from there.

Anyways- keep throwing the ideas out there!

Scott

[jnowell]

One thing that we do get from our bare bottom friends is an appreciation for sound maintenance
I can't be the only one who saw the humor in that, childish as it is! :D

On that note, again, not trying to pick at the rock-cookers, but seriously, I bought my rock dry (already sterile) for less than $2 a pound. It was from a fossilized reef, so nothing was killed obtaining it. I threw it in my sump for a few months, and guess what, sterile, beautiful, aquarium safe live rock.

The thought of paying $7 a lb. for rock that was chipped off of a LIVING REEF somewhere, and then killing most everything on it just doesn't make a lick of sense to me. I better quit before I ruin this peaceful thread. Really, to each his own, but that is my 2 cents worth.

I'm an avid scuba diver, and once you've been tooling along a beautiful reef somewhere, and round a corner to see corals, rocks, and fish being literally ripped from their natural environment by free diving natives, you tend to get a little touchy about these things. This same love for scuba is what made me so interested in my "brand" of rubble pile. in the wild, every coral head has a rubble zone piled up next to it on the inland side. That's why I tried the realtively low flow method.

I also second the picture thing, I'll have mine online tonight, but I hope someone else beats me to it other than Paul.

Jason

[rustybucket145]

Just thought I would show some pics from my tank that has been up for over 7 years, I just aquired it about a year ago and added some aragonite and a rubble layer on top. I have seen a "boom" in the overall population of copepods, amiphods, mysis shrimp and several other species that I cannot identify. It is really cool to watch the fish hunt for their prey. They seem to enjoy it more than recieving frozen food.

http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/jawFish.jpg
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/jawFishCloseUp.jpg
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/yellowFingerGorgonian.jpg
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/020106/jpgss/020106JPGS/mushrooms.jpg
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/020106/jpgss/020106JPGS/unknownBrain2.jpg

here is a good close pic of my Yellow Finger Gorgonian (nothing to do with rubble but I thought I would share it)
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/GorgonianCloseUp.jpg


Just for your info I have: 4-6inch DSB with diverse piles of rubble throughout the tank. I have also incoporated a 3inch rubble zone in my sump. This tank has been running for about 6months with the rubble incorporated and it has never looked cleaner!! All my levels are 0 (which they were the same before I added the rubble zone) The hermit crabs have a ball sorting through the rubble.

[rustybucket145]

Here is another pic I found of the hermit crabs. This pic also shows how I have tried to have a very diverse bottom, incorporating large 5"-6" pieces as well as smaller pieces.

http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/RZ-crabs.jpg

[rustybucket145]

I'll just add one more thing, those pics were taken to document some of my corals it just so happens that you can see the bottom and how it is set up. I will try to take some pics of my bottom tonight.

[jnowell]

Your rubble looks slightly larger than mine. Nice looking tank too! Is that aptasia in the back of the "unknown brain" image? I'm wondering because I have something very similar growing in my tank and I was about to kill it. Mine is very close to the lights, so it has a green center. The tentacles and base look very much like aptasia to me. Just wondering before I go killing something that might not be bad.

Jason

[rustybucket145]

No that is not Aptasia. It came from a local store they had it labled Condy Anemone but after some investigation I think it is some type of Hawian Purple Tip Anemone.

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6736085#post6736085 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by algaeguy
I'm sure that in a rubble bottom, similar stuff is found, but may be it may utilized differently by the animals that reside within the rubble zone.
In a Rubble Bottom, there is no Anoxic area on the Rubble SURFACE, to cause Anaerobic processing, and "sinking" into the depth of the bed. In other words, the compounds from the detritus are either "eaten", or returned to the water column for skimming or other processing.

Also, with a Rubble Bottom, many critters are allowed direct access to the detritus, without immediate predation. Sure, lots of critters get eaten by the fish, which we want, but a population is able to maintain itself to some point of equilibrium by way of the rubble "shelter".

The eating of the critters by the fish, is not only food, but is export as well. Many BB'ers, or detritus fanatics don't like this kind of statement, but some food makes it to the sand or rubble or whatever, and if critters aren't sheltered well enough to get at it, that becomes a rather nasty "import".

I know a lot of the anti-detritus people are concerned about phosphates accumulating in their systems, but I still wonder about the effects of small accumulations of detritus in cryptic areas. Are they really all that bad? Don't get me wrong- I'm not advocating lax maintenance, but I do proffer that accepting and working WITH some of the natural processes that occur in our systems, such as detritus production, can actually help us embrace a more complete biotope. Perhaps detritus doesn't have to be exported entirely through physical removal to be rendered harmless...perhaps it merely needs to be more fully utilized.

Right on Scott ! The problem is that the Test kits aren't good enough yet to even maintain a proper level, let alone know the answer to that question. This is what drives the fanatics. It's black or white for them because no "shade of gray" has been established, and inadequate test kits is the reason why.

Sure, there may be localized phosphate sources that could contribute to some algae growth, but I suspect that a good balance of detritivorous animals can help utilize this material and further break it down without jeapordizing water quality. The fact that Paul has been able to maintain an all rubble bottom system successfully for three decades attests to not only his husbandry skills, but the potentially minimal bad effects of detritus on water quality.

I still believe the detrivores do a huge job for keeping detritus in the water column for "non-sand-bed-processing". Ever see a snail or crab take a dump ? It doesn't lay there like fish poop does it ?

Don't forget Paul's RUGF, it is hugely responsible for controlling detritus accumulation. This includes his Prefilter. He explains about blowing off his rocks, and even with his low flow, the RUGF does a Huge job for him. I believe his "Algae Tray" is a big winner also. Paul also uses ozonated skimming since before it was well known.

Those of us that are using all-rubble bottoms or rubble zones along with other substrates should definitely document the water parameters within our systems, particularly the pH, phosphate and nitrate levels that interest us so much. If we can see long-term positive results from several systems of these types, we may have at least some anecdotal evidence that the concept works just fine in the long term, and is a valid alternative methodology, not just an experiment!

Exactamundo, to the Nth degree ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Where are those organic phosphate test kits, or better yet electronic monitors. I'd give $500 for one if I could get a true handle on Phophates with it ! ! !

Be careful Scott, asking for those "out of the box", and sharing ideas replies, with me around. > Barry :p :) :D

[Paul B]

I also second the picture thing, I'll have mine online tonight, but I hope someone else beats me to it other than Paul.

Boy, I wish I had a new picture to beat Jason .

Rustybucket, that gorgonian in your avitar, Have you had much luck keeping one of those for a few years? I can't get two years from one of them. It must be me. I decided to stop killing them and stick with other types.

Barry, I don't get no stinkin detritus :lol:
It all must be locked up in my dolomite. I can never see any unless I blast into the rocks or stir the substrate.
I'm sure some of it is still in there since Nixon, (he was after Lincoln) I still don't think it harms anything. Heck, maybe it has vitamins in it. :eek1:

Have a great night.
Paul::

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6737895#post6737895 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnowell
the 58g tank was previously used for coral propagation, so it's been a predator free zone for them for about 2 years. Lot's O pods are there to say the least.
What kind of corals were you propogating Jason ?

Here's my interesting observation before the re-arrangement. This tank rarely if ever got fed anything, maybe a little phytoplankton (live home grown nannochloropsis occulata). This only happened every few weeks at best when I thought about it, or had some extra from my clownfish breeding setup.

When I tore it down, there was TONS of detritus, everywhere, under everything I moved, inside and on top of everything I touched. This tank has had good husbandry, and ALL parameters were stable the entire two years. The corals grew very well, and I never lost an animal (outside of a few snails to the hermit crabs). So, a two year old, well maintained, healthy tank that was rarely fed anything, accumulated a good amount of detritus on it's own, and stayed very healthy.
What were your Phosphate levels during this time.

Thanks, > Barry :)

[jnowell]

What kind of corals were you propogating Jason ?

Many cool Zoanthids, yellow gorgonian, mushrooms, ricordea, zenia, anthillia, Kenya tree, leathers, branching hammer, frogspawn, star polyps, and palythoa, I may have left one or two out, but that pretty much covers it. I did have a few acropora frags in there, but with only PC lighting, they never grew big enough to frag.

What were your Phosphate levels during this time.

My phosphates were rarely ever detectable at all, never had any algae problems either. I did get some grape caulerpa on a frag I bought from GARF, so I just let it grow in there to help with nitrates and phosphates. I was using RO/DI water for top off and water changes

Here's the pics of my <1 month old rubble zone. Will keep you posted on its development. This will be a seahorse broodstock tank, so it will be well fed. The large rocks in the background are the 2 month old dry calcium carbonate rock I mentioned earlier.

A front view
http://www.wfrs.org/sh/rz1.jpg

A side view
http://www.wfrs.org/sh/rz2.jpg

And the whole area
http://www.wfrs.org/sh/rz3.jpg

[algaeguy]

Love the pics, guys.

It's neat to see different types of rubble and different substrate materials used, as well.

jnowell- I didn't even notice how my "bare bottom" comment looked until you pointed it out! Too funny!

Barry- go for it, man- as far out of the box as you can!

Please do record/report parameters as you can. It would be cool to get some data from a few different tanks utilizing different rubble approaches...

Remember- be "one" with the rubble...LOL

Scott

[rustybucket145]

Paul,
I've had that gorgonian for about a year and a half. It seems to be very healthy. It opens every night during the sunset phase of my tank. It stays open all night long until about 10am when natural sunlight hits my tank. It is growing so much that I have been able to propagate it several times to give to friends and family. I don't do anything special for it. I do dose phyto (home-brew) four or five times a week. I also feed live baby brine shrimp 2 or three times a week. Other than that he is just sitting in a high water flow area. I do have a very large population of copepods and amiphods in my tank, so I'm sure he is getting some 'natural' food as well as what I feed. I hope he lives a long and happy life. I assume that if it is growing it is healthy? How were you able to tell if your gorgonian was dieing?

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6739097#post6739097 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rustybucket145
Just thought I would show some pics from my tank that has been up for over 7 years, I just aquired it about a year ago and added some aragonite and a rubble layer on top. I have seen a "boom" in the overall population of copepods, amiphods, mysis shrimp and several other species that I cannot identify. It is really cool to watch the fish hunt for their prey. They seem to enjoy it more than recieving frozen food.
Seven years is a great run on any tank in my estimation, and it needn't end there of course. Great job.

Just for your info I have: 4-6inch DSB with diverse piles of rubble throughout the tank. I have also incoporated a 3inch rubble zone in my sump. This tank has been running for about 6months with the rubble incorporated and it has never looked cleaner!! All my levels are 0 (which they were the same before I added the rubble zone) The hermit crabs have a ball sorting through the rubble.

I have never seen such clean rocks in a tank after any significant amount of time. How long have your rocks been in the tank ? What maintanence if any do you apply to your sand bed, and that of the previous owner ?

I have been shying away from crabs "a bit" recently, because of their impact on fauna populations. I have a lot of crabs in my tank along with snails, and "almost NO fauna". No Rubble or habitat for them either. I would say "just enough" crabs to keep the algae down, and elsewise rely much more on snails, in order to keep fauna populations "maximized".

It looks like I need to add a Rubble Zone ("RZ") to my tank right away, as I'm done being concerned about any potential negative aspect to sheltering the critters.

Gosh Scott, a "convert" ! :D :p :)

[rustybucket145]

Barry, thanks for the comments.

As far as sand bed maintenance... The only thing I do is check the tank every day or so and turn over any Hermit Crabs or Snails that may have experienced technical difficulty. I have never Vaccumed the tank and I have had it for almost 2 years now, but it has been established for over 7. Some of the rocks in the tank were from my old 55gal tank (they were in pretty sad shape) Some of the rocks came with the tank when I bought it. Some of the rocks are man-made. The previous owner had really let the tank go. He had stopped dosing the tank with anything. But because of the bio-diversity in the tank nothing had died and the corals actually were very healthy.

When I got the tank I just set everything back up added some aragonite for DSB (sand was already about 4" deep) and Rubble Zones (I did this before I even knew about RC or what a RZ was). I have roughly 40-50 Hermit crabs of different species and sizes. I also have a good amount of snails and Bristleworms (that do NOT eat coral). Other than the occasional diatom I have had no problem with algae. I use tap water (don't tell anyone) but have been considering purchasing a RO/DI filter.

When you say Fauana I assume you are talking about micro-Organisms? If so... before my rubble zone was added the tank did have a good bit of micro-life but after it was added the population EXPLODED. As you can see by the pics I have several different sizes of rubble just like you would find on a reef edge/channel. I can see mysis shrimp, an ungodly amount of copepods and amiphods in all stages of life just by looking closely at my bottom. I have even witnessed some pretty bizzarre mating/fighting rituals between the little critters.

As far as the detrius matter, I can't seem to see any. Anywhere. Occasionally my Falco Hawkfish will spook and kick up some dust but the crabs and snails seem to keep it squeaky clean.

Rubble Zone: If You Build It.... They Will Come....

[Konadog]

Well, you guys beat Scott on posting pictures of your Rubble Bottom's, so he sent me some pictures to post of his. These are from Scott's tank.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/9086rubble_zone_pics_002.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/9086rubble_zone_pics_008.jpg

[BrianPlankis]

Man, I'm even considering making my current 75 a rubble bottom now :)

Other than Scott's tank, anyone else using pieces about the size of a quarter or larger for their entire bottom? I have a DSB currently and am thinking of yanking(slowly of course) and replacing with LR rubble. Hmmmm....

Brian

[dan934]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6700015#post6700015 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by engagg
How about a rubble refegium? Anyone tried one? Could be a great place to grow some critters.

Great thread. About 4 years ago when I was setting up my first reef aquarium I could not find "affordable" substrate that was suitable for refugium at my LFS so I added about 2 inches of chunks of dead crushed coral pieces they had on sale as decorative rock (about 1 to 4 inches in length). I was originally going to add a plenum, so I left the divider in and created a 3/4" zone below this rubble. I also added about 4 or 5 pieces of live rock. It has been a major breading ground for pods, worms, and snails and is now an assorment of crushed coral, shells, feather dusters, chucks of coraline algae etc. I have helped seed a number other refugiums by putting new rock in my refugium for about a month before transfering it. It is literally crawling with these criters. I made some of the rock with crushed oyster shells and crushed coral for a very porous effect that I find attracts huge numbers of pods and worms in the crevices and appears to seed much faster than other live rock I have used (note it took months to cure to lower PH to safe level). I have this 30 gallon refugium connected to a 75 gallon tank and have had great success with almost every coral and fish I have kept. I often catch myself watching this tank's criters instead of my beautiful reef tank.

[Paul B]

Rustybucket. One and a half years is great for that gorgonian. I have much more luck with other types. maybe I will get another orange one. They are very common here in NY. I also hatch and feed baby brine shrimp a few times a week. I built a hatchery that makes it very easy.
Have a great day.
Paul

[rustybucket145]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6748396#post6748396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dan934
I often catch myself watching this tank's criters instead of my beautiful reef tank.

I agree 100%. It's not what everyone else that looks at my tank sees. But to me it is the most interesting peice.

[WILDTHING]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6748241#post6748241 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CirolanidHunter
Man, I'm even considering making my current 75 a rubble bottom now :)

Other than Scott's tank, anyone else using pieces about the size of a quarter or larger for their entire bottom?

Brian

This is what I'm planning on doing when I set up my 200g, no sand, just chunks covering the bottom front and sides of the tank. My rock I plan to put on egg crate with legs. I'm also thinking about placing my 2 seio's on the bottom corners to blow stuff forward into the zone. (RZ) If too much "stuff" builds up I can easily take a PH to the zone and use a filter sock on my overflow to clear out some of the excess.

I've been BB (and loving it) for about 6 months but I miss all the cool critters that used to live in and around my sand.

colleen

[engagg]

I just picked up 2 boxes of rock at the airport and I must say, i was slightly disappointed, there wasn't much rubble! But seriously I recieved some awesome transhipped kaelini from Dr. Mac. I have some enormous pieces of rock and now not enough rubble for what I am trying to do.

This is the plan for the new 75. 2/3's of the tank is about a 4 inch dsb for hopefully growing seagrasses and the other 1/3 will be ruble bottom with the majority of the rockwork. I also set up a "deep sand bucket" in the sump with over 8" of sand. I am using silica sand because of the cheapness factor, purchased 3 different types/ sizes. Still pretty fine but I put all the crushed stuff from my live rock bags in with it so it should give it some larger grain sizes.

So we shall see how the tank progresses, it's thanks to you folks at RC for all the ideas. I will try to get some pics in the next few days and once the levels stabilize after the cycle I keep track and post 'em here.

Greg

[algaeguy]

Now we know we've all lost it when we're disappointed about lack of rubble in our expensive live rock orders! LOL

To be honest with you, if you're not adverse to taking a sledge hammer to some of those pieces, you can certainly make your own rubble!

Thanks, Ken for posting my pics...I'm not much of a photographer, as you can tell- but I hope the pics convey one rubble bottom concept.

Barry- looking forward to seeing your rubble zone!

dan- your rubble 'fuge sounds cool, too!

Lots of cool ideas emerging here!

Remember- detritus can be your friend! LOL

Scott

[~ChrisB~]

Again, you can get rubble resonably cheap at PA. These are the sizes I used for my bed.

Chris

[Wombat_101]

I have a 90 gal RR and in the small space between the overflow box and the side of the tank I took all of my dead snail shells, coral, and rubble rock and piled them up to create an area in my tank that the mandarin could not get to. I started this about 6 months ago and the pod population in this part of the tank is crazy. This rubble pile sits on top of a 4" DSB. This isn't a huge pile but I feel it defintely helped as an in tank pod production plant.

Here is a pic

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/20608rubble.JPG

I've also added some live rock (not rubble) to my sump to assist in pod growth as well as a baffle system.

Greg

[algaeguy]

Thanks for sharing, Wombat.

I think that we're all seeing a common denominator here- rubble zones categorically seem to foster significant populations of small crustaceans....

Interesting, huh?

Scott

[exoticaquatix]

i have had 2 plastic shoe box type containers full of live rock rubble in my sump for about 4 months. these containers have numerous holes drilled in them to allow water flow through them. i have noticed a large amount of critters(pods, mysis shrimp?, brittle stars ect.) in, on and around these containers. i also noticed a fair amount of sponge growth on the rubble when i was looking for frag bases the other day. i do have detritus in my sump but cant help but think id have much more if there was not an area for critters to hide and reproduce.
i was wondering if i should occasionally stir up these containers and remove the build up of detritus or let nature take its course.

[Reefjunkee]

GO FOR IT

[Reefjunkee]

GO FOR IT

[rustybucket145]

exoticequatics: on stirring, I find that waving my hand over the rubble or hitting it with a powerhead stirs it up pretty good without causing any harm to the 'critters'

[Humber]

hay alguien que hable español?

[barryhc]

Not in my corn field !

> Barry :beachbum:

[Chicago]

any pics of these rubble reefs




?

[rustybucket145]

having a 'photo session' this weekend just for this thread so they will be up monday mid-morning

[ChrisCummins]

Could someone please read through this thread and sum it up in a nut shell lol? :)

I don't quite have the patience to read through all 14 pages, but I really like the look of the pics and might consider this as an possibility for my 15gal?

Thanks,
Chris

[lillibirdy]

Wow, there are sooo many different ideas and ways of utilizing rubble, in this thread, and it is a such new science, I am not sure it is possible to "sum up", without missing some reeeally interesting stuff. I know 14 pages seems overwhelming, but I think it would be better to read the pages.

However their are keener minds than mine in here, anyone wanna try a summation?

[ChrisCummins]

I'd imagine they give a huge amount of filtration capacity?

Also, something which I don't think will have been raised here, is the affects on the weight of the tank?

Thanks,
Chris

[JCDelbeek]

The use of rubble is neither a new idea or a revolutionary one, it is again another example of the great wheel of change rotating yet again. :)

Rubble was used by the Berlin Aquarium society on the bottom of their reef tanks in the 1970s, there is also mention rubble being used in sumps. Jaubert systems are basically coarse gravel and you might be tempted to also call them rubble, but to me rubble is on the order of a minimum of 1" diameter and a maximum of 2-3" diameter.

I have used rubble in some of my larger systems for decorative purposes mainly, however, this rubble was placed over a screened plate and suspended (see pic on page566 od TRA3). As has been mentioned here already, rubble will accumulate detritus very rapidly, as will using rough crushed coral, and unless a means is found to remove or consume it, there is shall remain ... and accumulate.

I think that placing a raised plate on the bottom that a thin layer of rubble is placed on would allow for the detritus to fall through and be removed either by a siphon or spraybar arrangement. You might even want to consider a reverse flow arrangement so that the water movement is UP through the rubble, or have a suction line and drain in the bottom of the tank to remove water as well as return line under the plate to keep the detritus suspended and therefore, easily removed by the suction line.

My 2 cents worth ...

Aloha!
Charles

[Paul B]

Charles, I also used rubble in one of my tanks in the early seventees and I was never crazy about it. Snails could die under it and you will never find them and it is not very natural. I really can't recall anywhere I ever dove in the tropics where I saw a true rubble bottom without mostly sand mixed in. Here in NY we have plenty of sea floors like that but the rock here is not calcerous and would also not look good in a coral tank.
I would imagine in a very large aquarium of a few thousand gallons the size of the rock would not be noticed as much.
I would imagine that it would increase the surface area of live rock manyfold over sand.
Also my 2 cents worth.
Have a great day.
Paul

[BrianPlankis]

I'm seriously considering having an eggcrate layer about 2-3" above the bottom of my tank, supported by PVC pipes. I could then use one of the new Vortec pumps to clean out the bottom, or install a spray bar pointed towards the back of the tank.

Brian

[lillibirdy]

Alhoa Charles,

I was wondering if you read this thread? It seems that for some detritus isn't as big a problem as you would think, and many ways are mentioned to deal with it, (including the ones you mentioned). I have a reverse flow UGF and am not finding it much of a problem in my rubble zone. And there has been much posted lately about the critters that love to inhabit such rubble possibly making what detritus there is, inert.....lots of possabilites to think about in this thread, that are new to most of the reefers I have met.

Kathy

[Paul B]

Hello there Kathy. I also think detritus becomes inert in time. For the most part it is organic and when the organics are gone due to bacterial action, whats left is like lint. It may clog some pores or cause problems because it limits flow or traps more fresher, more organic detritus but besides that I feel it becomes inert. I am fairly sure that the detritus that was under my UG filter plates for the 25 years before I cleaned it was not causing harm or even building up much.
If it was, my animals would be in trouble.
Have a great day.
Paul

[lillibirdy]

Hiya Paul, anything new and interesting goin on in your tank or your life? Ya got any more stuff from the ocean lately? You still gotta feed sorta heavy for that Moorish Idol? How is he doing? How long has it been now that you've had him now??

[Paul B]

Kathy, How are you? I don't want to hijack the rubble thread so I will keep it short. I still feed too heavy because of certain gorgonians, copperband and the moorish Idol. I am putting the Idol on a low fat diet. Much too fat. The copperband still loves worms. I don't remember when I got him but It is not a year yet. The tank is still very good. I built some new lights, the old PC housing warped. I built a new one with a fan. The RUGF is still good, no change. 23 more years and I will have to clean it again. I got a pair of blue striped pipefish a few months ago. Real nice fish. Nothing else new, will start to get the boat ready next month and get back into collecting. I want to get a lot of codium seaweed this year and I ran out of sponge for the Idol.
Hope all is well with you.
Take care.
Paul

[Paul B]

Kathy the Moorish Idol is just over two and a half years. here is the copperband.
You've seen the Idol many times.
Paul

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copperband.jpg

[lillibirdy]

I first put Copperband, then edited to put Moorish Idol, I was confused....lol. Lookin great!

[Paul B]

I thought I saw copperband, then I saw Moorish Idol. I thought I was getting senile.

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6879724#post6879724 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCDelbeek
The use of rubble is neither a new idea or a revolutionary one, it is again another example of the great wheel of change rotating yet again. :)
This is quite true of course, and still the question remains, how best to utilize it

to me rubble is on the order of a minimum of 1" diameter and a maximum of 2-3" diameter.
This seems to be very much in the spirit of this thread. I wonder what we should call 1/4" to 1" dia. stuff ?

unless a means is found to remove or consume it, there is shall remain ... and accumulate.
Both methods have been discussed here, but the "consuming" part has been sort of accepted as a potential advantage for promoting "fauna" that would make good fish food, but without much support from experience, as to whether this "cycle" might really be adequate for detritus removal ( by way of consumption only ).

Comments on this aspect or question I'm sure, would be highly appreciated.

The Plate and flow versions have been discussed also, and I think the majority in this thread would prefer to do this type of thing on an occasional basis, or elsewise such that the previously mentioned "fauna-consumption" method could-would remain valid.

Thanks for your reply, and could you comment on these questions, regarding "detritus control" ?

Thanks > Barry :)

[spoon25]

im fairly new to the hobby, done alot of reading, and i have personally have about a 3 inch sand bed with another 2 inches of refugium snails and rubble on top of the sand...this way if detritus does go under the rubble the worms will come out and eat it and then the bugs will go hide inside the snail shells....i never have done a siphon yet to the bottom rubble, never had a nitrate problem...it seems to be workin...anyone see any problems with that idea?

[Paul B]

worms will come out and eat it and then the bugs will go hide inside the snail shells.

OK.

I don't know what to make of this but
OK

[mr.wilson]

I get a lot of "live rubble" (1"dia.) from the bottom of live rock boxes. I use it in my refugiums. I find it to be a superior substrate to that of aragonite sand, as it allows for more sites for copepods, amphipods, serpulid worms and micro-plankton. Sand is more conducive as bacterial film sites, a position well covered by the display tank sand and rock surfaces.

My refugiums have a very large plenum, of sorts, (6" deep) with vertical rows of egg-crate to provide sites for benthic invertebrates (sponges, squirts, worms, pods, barnacles etc.). I place the rubble rock on egg-crate (above the plenum) without plastic screening, to allow the detritus from the Chaetomorpha culture to classify through to the lower plenum (benthic zone).

Motile and sessile invertebrates have a steady supply of detrital nutrients from the refugium above, slow flow rates, no light and adequate surface area in the rows of egg-crate. All sumps eventually populate with these benthic invertebrates, but the limiting factor is the lack of suitable sites for them to populate.

The upper "refuge zone" is only 5" deep. I find that only the first five inches of a refugia receive enough light for photosynthesis. The lower levels house old growth that slowly dissimilates and returns its' catch (phosphate, silicate, nitrate etc.) to the water column. The shallow depth allows me to quickly move water through the Chaeto, thus keeping it free from detritus. Rubble rock allows it to keep on truckin' to the lower benthic zone where it can be consumed.

The two levels (refuge & benthic) allow for compact, efficient naturalized zones. I call it the "Duplex System". The refuge zone (upper level) utilizes macro algae to assimilate and export nitrates, phosphates, and silicates. It also uses rubble and macro algae to provide adequate surface area and nutrients for natural food production (amphipods & copepods etc.). The benthic zone (lower level) fosters the growth of detrivores and water polishers. Detritus migrates from the display into the refuge, then into the benthic zone where it can be assimilated naturally by the resident fauna.

[Konadog]

Well, I finally was able to take a few (crappy) pictures of the rubble bottom tank at the Long Beach Aquarium of the Pacific.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/9086rubble.JPG
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/9086rubble2.JPG

[Paul B]

That is certainly rubbly :eek1:

[lillibirdy]

Wow Konadog, that sure is interesting. Thanks for posting those pics. A bajillion little hiding places in that rubble. I don't think I am fond of the look of branches/sticks tho, prefer chunky irregular rubble piles for asthetics.

[lillibirdy]

Mr Wilson, BIG welcome to this thread!!! Thanks for the interesting post, and diagram! Can you post some pics of your tanks??

[mr.wilson]

Thanks Lillibirdy. Here are some pictures of current projects, in varius stages of development. http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic9.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic8.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic7.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic6.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic5.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic4.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic3.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic2.jpg http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/110288rcpic1.jpg

[Chicago]

is that tank floating... more pics please

[lillibirdy]

How deep is that floating tank? What a trip!

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6950444#post6950444 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lillibirdy
How deep is that floating tank? What a trip!

The dimensions are 72"L x 12"W@ctr x 28.5"H. The tank is elliptical with a bow on each side. It tapers down to about 3" wide at the end.

It is suspended by engineered aircraft cable. Stainless steel tubes are used to conceal the wires and plumbing. The one in the picture has a 400 gallon sump that is shared with a 72 gallon bow-front reef.

I don't want to hijack a good thread, so I posted some more pictures in my gallery.

Back to a related topic; Does anyone have a tank with a slab rock substrate? I've done some with colonial polyps and mushrooms in the past, but nothing recently. I found that they harboured detritus, and in the case of some polyps (palythoa & zoanthid) they generated a fair amount. Yellow polyps and tree polyps, on the other hand, were fairly clean and perhaps beneficial.

[BOBG]

I am currently living in China and the concepts here of fresh water and marine tanks go against what we believe to be the optimal setups. I've been here almost 5 years and just now decided to re-enter the reef world.

I have seen many tanks here with 2" gravel only with no UGF a powerhead with a foam filter and change water once a month using straight tap water (note: we don't even drink the water from the tap) iin fresh water tanks.

For marine tanks, they use coral rubble about 1/4" in diameter by 1/2" long pieces about 1" deep. For filtration they are using wet/ dry trickle filters. They are using 48" tubes usually one daylight and one 5000k tube. they do about (chinese just guess at everything) 20% every month. The only thing they add is fresh water top off from the tap and Specific gravity of 23 for water change, temp 29 centrigrade.

What's amazing is they have beautiful thriving tanks and inhabitants.

[BOBG]

I have photos of my newly Chinese purchased and setup 500 Liter tank. This tank is 2 weeks old and still cycling. Notice the diatom bloom?
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/505/194601.JPG http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/505/194602.JPG
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194603.JPG http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194604.JPG
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194605.JPG

[Tunguska]

Wow, I like that look for the Long Beach Aquarium of the Pacific rubble bottom. Imagine all the little places you could glue frags... ;)

[Sm0kin]

I like the idea of a ugf with reverse flow. Now should I just Smash some of my live rock with a hammer outside or inside the house? Is it safe to make rubble this way? I like the look of the tank with the rubble that slopes up to the rock. Will having too much rubble and rock defeat the purpose of the reverse flow? What do you think would be a good flow for the ugf?

[Konadog]

Went thru my bins that have been cooking my rock and came up with a bucket of rubble that I'm going to use on the bottom of my tank.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/9086smrubble.JPG

[algaeguy]

Niiice...!

Scott

[Konadog]

Scott, you can't see most of it, but there is a lot of Tonga branch in the bottom of the bucket. It may look like a lot of rock, but I'm sure it will only cover 1/3 of the bottom once I start.

[algaeguy]

It may not initially cover it all, but it sure will look cool!

You have some neat shapes and there will be lots of foraging areas for fishes under those pieces. Should be eay to keep clean...and to mount some corals on, huh?

Can't wait to see it in the tank!

Scott

[Konadog]

Tank progress:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=759531

[Don424]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6988383#post6988383 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sm0kin
I like the idea of a ugf with reverse flow. Now should I just Smash some of my live rock with a hammer outside or inside the house? Is it safe to make rubble this way? I like the look of the tank with the rubble that slopes up to the rock. Will having too much rubble and rock defeat the purpose of the reverse flow? What do you think would be a good flow for the ugf?

I'm doing the reverse flow and it's working great. You can just smash what you have and make the rubble.........that's safe. My rubble is small in size and I have some crushed shell and coral mixed on one side of the tank. . I'm using the Penguin Reverse flow pump(2 of them) & I think they're rated at 175g/hr. Too much rock sitting on your plates could defeat the purpose and actually be detrimental but if you put the rubble on the plates first then the rock rock on top of the rubble you should be fine. Good luck.

[Cody Ray]

I have been really wanting to try something like this for a while, but could never afford to go larger than 20gallons.

[Chicago]

any new pics.. any thoughts on mixing some crush pucs shell from seafloor with rubble.

i siphoned out most of my fine sand except areas around the pillars of rock. need to awoid a fall ...

i think this will work best as the heavy flow caused the fine sand to lift off the bottom and cloud the tank a little. very noticeable with MH not with VHo

[Konadog]

Not quite done yet, but this is my YWG favorite place:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/9086YWG_rubble.JPG

[J-Ross]

Great thread guys! I finally read through all of it yesterday, and boy my head is spinning with ideas.. Both for the tank I am starting now, and future ones :D What I am starting now, is a "tri-zonal" 29 gallon. The system suggests a bare bottom, in the exposed/filter feeder zones, and sand bed in the cryptic zone. Of course it also suggests that nothing be housed that will disturb the sand and possibly clog up the pores in the sponges. But I am also not liking the BB look, or being so severely limited in inhabitants... After having read, and digested this thread.. I am thinking that a rubble bottom over a thin layer of a coarser sand may be a solution.

I decided to try the "tri-zonal" idea because of the one tank, no external plumbing, naturally filtered way it is supposed to be. Would the rubble bottom, and it's critters rob those inhabitants of their food, defeating the purpose? Or might it help create a more diverse system? Possibly help with the supposed green water "problem" the tri-zonals have?

Of course no system should be designed without thought of the inhabitants, and with that in mind, let me give you an idea of what I plan (would like), though as well all know how plans go at times...

-Slower growing more exotic (to me at least :cool: ) SPS, LPS, and maybe some zoos, a few gorgonians, a flame scallop or two, sponges & sea squirts, sun polyps, a clam..
-Cleaner shrimp, 'pom-pom' crab, yellow filter feeding cucumber..

-perhaps a pistol shrimp/goby pair(would he dig in something like Tidal Marine Silver Shores Aragonite, if I made it deep enough in an area? Say under the front of the reef?)

For fish I had originally thought about trying to get some peaceful fish that were easier to breed, to see if any young were to get anywhere in the system on their own. (Gobies, Clowns, Cardinals) I could then try raising them later when I have time/space. The firefish is also an interesting idea. Or just going with a peacful mix, possibly with a wrasse suitable for this size tank, that is, if the retailers are correct with their listings.

I know this is not totally complete, but any masters of husbandry I welcome to chime in, especially on fish/detrivores for the rubble zone/bottom. If you feel it isn't appropriate for this thread, I ask you post to the thread of my tank here: My tri-zonal 29, plus fuge project (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=824367) I don't want to hijack this thread :)

--Jason

[barryhc]

I've got to tell you Jason, that is just the type of system I'm preparing to build, albeit I'm looking at 200 gal.. The animal choices are just right, and as far as the fauna working out the way you want, that is going to be your continuing experiment. Please keep us informed, it sounds great !

> Barry :) :thumbsup:

[Whaledriver]

Well I am going to give this a try
Heres my setup so far.
30 gallon tank
undergravel filter plate
2 x Marineland reverse flow pumps at 175GPH each
heater
Red Sea Prism skimmer with the overflow intake(Trade for an old skimmer)
Regular aquarium hood with single flourescent light
Possably a hang on the back Penguin filter for extra flow and airiation of the water
3-5 inches of 1 inch rubble
One large rock that is very open to give something to look at and for the fish to hide and swim around

occupants
Manis shrimp
Sun Polyps

[Don424]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7348572#post7348572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whaledriver
Well I am going to give this a try
Heres my setup so far.
30 gallon tank
undergravel filter plate
2 x Marineland reverse flow pumps at 175GPH each
heater
Red Sea Prism skimmer with the overflow intake(Trade for an old skimmer)
Regular aquarium hood with single flourescent light
Possably a hang on the back Penguin filter for extra flow and airiation of the water
3-5 inches of 1 inch rubble
One large rock that is very open to give something to look at and for the fish to hide and swim around

occupants
Manis shrimp
Sun Polyps

Whaledriver...............very similar setup to mine......no mantis though. Sounds great. I used a couple of larger pieces of base rock to bring out some height in the display. Is you rock live? Keep us all abreast of the progress or any issues that might crop up. Sounds like you got a winner.:thumbsup:

[Whaledriver]

Thanks for the feed back!
Yes the rock is going to be live rubble and on nice piece for height and look.
I got the Mantis about 4 years ago and dont have the heart to kill him or teade him off. I think he will hunt just like a Manderin and keep things under control. He will also clean up after the sun polyp feedings. The sun polyps are in another tank and end up geting to much light on them and the coraline is starting to cover them up.

[Whaledriver]

Don424
How do you like the flow from the ugf pumps? Is it to much or just right. For me it will be about 10-11 times an hour turnover.

[Don424]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7354036#post7354036 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whaledriver
Don424
How do you like the flow from the ugf pumps? Is it to much or just right. For me it will be about 10-11 times an hour turnover.

I like the pumps a lot. For me(75G) with 2 pumps it's 4.6 per hour so it's just right.

[Chicago]

i pulled out all my dsb in the tank.. i ma going with larger grains.. not guite rubble. the crushed coarse geo marine ... 4 to 6mm .. mixed in some crushed shell and schuran media..

for me i just wanted to stop the dust storms

[Whaledriver]

Chicago I think that will work with the denitrator but without it, it would fail. I wonder if you are going to vacuum your gravel?

I think anything under 1/2 inch is gravel and detritus and silt will build up over time. I think the minimum size of the rubble is relative to the size of the pods and mysis. It will also become a nitrate factory. Chicago has a way to deal with the nitrate. I just hope people don't try that and become a tank from the 80's with all the problems of a under-gravel filter. I would hope that the concept of the life in the rubble is not forgotten since I think it is the best reason for a rubble bottom

[Chicago]

purely astetics in the tank.. and ease of cleaning.. i have a large sump 300 gallons in the basment with phlenum. it is the biological filter and does quite well at kepping the nitrates at zero.

what i was looking for was to just cover the bottom of the tank. i have never had this size grave. in the 90s in my old tank i was using the speacial reee grade with plenum and that worked well.. that is why i am using it in the sump in the basement...

i liked the look of the sugar so went for it in my tank..but that stuff is to fine in my opionio for a reef sps dominated tank.. cloud storms ect.

what i did notice about the sugar size is that it accumulated detritus the same .. just more fine like. ... sand goes greyish looking.. (not to be confused with black which is signs of sulphur).

i am hoping that this size wil be good for pods.... anyone use this size in their tank?

pros and cons?

i dont think it will be nitrate factory as i am not using a large depth...

i would have gone bare bottom perhaps but needed something to support the reef structure ...

if i had it all to start over i would have done some precasting with rock on the bottom glass... that way not dependant on the sand to support the structure of the reef rock

[Whaledriver]

I have never thought of precast on the bottom. I have seen it on the walls and it looked good. For a high flow sps tank that would look cool and very natural.

[ultraxr]

Hi folks. I am finally done with reading all 16 pages of this thread. I'm in the process of taking down my tank and redoing it. I'll be parting out a good chuck of my LR too for that i have way too much that its making my 120 cramped up and looking like a 55 gal tank.

I transferred my livestock and few pieces of corals into my old 55 gal tank. I have it set up as a prop tank. I've been slowly picking up live rock rubble and tossing them into my prop tank. I plan on going 100% rubble bottom pieces ranging from 1"- 4". Mainly tonga and fiji branch rubble. I'm also waiting for my custom sump to be built. So in the meantime, I'm getting my read on and absorbing as much as i can through your guy's experiences.

Finally, no more just imagining and wishing... time to dive in and get the ball rolling to get this set up.

[miatawnt2b]

Good luck.
The previous owner of my tank decided to make a faux epoxy sandbed for the bottom of the tank, so I decided to rubble the entire thing with 1-2" rubble. Been set up now for 2 months, and I really like not having to worry about sandstorms with monster stream flow. My pistol shrimp found a nice crevise under a rock and seems happy as a clam... no... well... pistol shrimp.

-J

[Whaledriver]

I have had my 30 gallon set up with a under gravel filter plate. I put the rubble on top and things seem to be going well after 3 months. I have 2 reverse flow under gravel filter pumps circulating water under the plate. All seems to be fine but I would like some more flow to keep silt from building up in half of the bottom glass. I also have a cpr hang on algae filter and a hang on Prism skimmer. Pods and mysis are really starting to take over as well as the 2 types of snails. The only other thing in the tank is a large brittle star.

The review of my setup would say it would be a good tank for a small fish that likes to eat pods. I would think and food the fish wont eat would be eaten by the pods. I doubt that the pods population could be decimated by one fish as long as the rubble is about 4 inches deep (golf ball size)

[snadaud]

Nice thread !

I've had my tank set up with large gravel/small rubble (4-6"deep) and RUGF powered by a canister filter also filled with the same substrate for over 3 years and am very happy with it :)
It really is teeming with life : pods, worms, brittle stars, etc...
The reasoning (or should I say wishful thinking ;)? ) why I put a canister filter to power it was that the water sent under the plate would already be depleted in O2 which in turn would help with some denitificationg in the substrate while not allowing for development of anaerobic conditions and production of H2S.
My chiller is also on the same line, so that the water injected under the plate is cooler.

One thing I haven't tried yet but will do on my next tank, is put some air diffusers under the plate and switch then on for a few minutes at night with a timer to put some of the animals living in the substrate in suspension so that they can be fed upon.
Another option I am considering to achieve that is to put a PH with a venturi on a T I could install on the line sending water from the canister filter to under the plate, and run that on a timer to send a sudden extra flux of water + bubbles under the plate.

The ONLY reason I want to do that is to put some critters/bact, etc... in the water column for filter feeder and corals to feed on. We might even be able to hope to keep some aposymbiotic animals if the bed is thick and old enough...Well one can always hope...

I do have 0.5 to 1" of silt at the bottom of my bed but I'm not concerned about it since the worms tunnel in it and I think it might actually provide an habitat for smaller pods than the gravel.
Just my 0.2$

[Whaledriver]

snadaud
I don't think you have a rubble bottom. I think that if you have that much silt building up and are worried about anaerobic conditions then you have a fundamentally different system. I also would not put air under the filter plate since this will lead to bubbles that block the water flow and create dead spots. If ph and oxygen is a problem under the plate you should rethink the size of your rubble and flow rates.

I think you need to have enough flow to remove silt . That, is as I have found out, a lot of flow! I am guessing about 15x turnover going under the plate. A help might be a SWID device and a power head.

As for the silt being a habitat you might be right but is that the habitat that you want in a rubble bottom tank? I think that good rubble with lots of nooks and cranny's if best for the flow needed.

[just dave]

Here is one. (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8618477#post8618477)

[snadaud]

Hi Whale,

You're right about my substrate, it is medium to large pieces of crushed gravel 1-2" so it isn't exactly rubble. However some of the tank pics I saw in the thread seemd to have similar substrate.

I sometimes acidentally inject air under the plate when I forget to switch the canister filter off while doing a water change. The bubbles are not trapped under the gravel but come through it quickly, bringing along some surprised pods.

The reason I'm considering doing this intentionally has nothing to do with the ph or oxygen level under the plate, it is only to put some critters in the water columns. A bit like Peter Wilkens stirring up his sand.

As for the silt I don't want to get rid of it ! Matter of fact is I love it... I consider it like a breedinmg ground for small pods...sort of an in-tank undergravel refugium
:rollface:

[cwschoon]

What a thread! I have been BB since my move but am going back to 1-2" of CC and rubble. BB just seems unnatural and I think the critters that inhabit sand and rubble are necessary. What is a good combination of ditritus maintenace creatures? Specifically, which hermits/snails/stars for the shallow sand and rubble?
Thanks.

[Whaledriver]

I think the best way to run a rubble bottom is without the CC since it will end up causing problems over the long run. It collects detritus that can raise nitrates.

I would do about 4 inches of golf ball sized rubble with lots of nooks and crannies in them. Below that I would use a under gravel filter plate and run about 20x turnover through a closed loop or power head. Some type of SWID or pulsing water would also help a lot.

This seems like a lot of flow but it doesn't bother the critters at all. Remember this recreates a natural rubble habitat. I also like the way food floats all around til something grabs it and eats it.

One other thing that I think is important is a algae filter or a lot of water changes. I prefer a algae filter like a cpr refuge with just cheato

[cwschoon]

I agree with you whaledriver but I am going to put a bit in. Will not cover the entire tank bottom with cc. Am not going to cover the entire bottom with rubble either. I just want the biodiversity back; need pods for a mandarin. Which crabs/snails would you advise? I have my opinion but am always interested in what others have to say. I will do a 5 gal siphon/water change one every one or two weeks.
Thanks.

[algaeguy]

Been a while since I chimed in on the topic, so I thought I'd add some more feedback!

I am a big fan of using the rubble on a completely bare bottom, if for no other reason than you can blast flow around without stirring sand up all over the place. However, I think that cwschoon's idea of adding some CC to the rubble mix is not too problematic if good overall husbandry is used.

I've tried incorporating a rubble zone area in my new seagrass biotope system...The rubble is located over the thinnest (about 1.5-2 inch) part of the sandbed, up front where I can easily access it for maintenance.

I thought that it would be a bit of a challenge to have rubble over sand, but this has not been the case to date...My wrasses, Centropyge multicolor, and Ctenochaetus Tang spend a lot of time foraging in this particular area, so I still maintain that with good hasbandry and a proper mix of animals, you can potentially run a rubble zone over sand as well.

As many people have pointed out to me, the fear that we have about excessive detritus might be grounded in some outdated thinking. If we realize that some detritus (or perhaps, materials within the detritus) form the basis of food webs for some animals, we can learn to live with some of it!

In all seriousness, of course, the ideas on this thread have been fantastic, and I'm stoked to see so many people trying different approaches to reef systems!

Keep the ideas flowing!

Scott

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6712799#post6712799 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
Good thoughts Brian. Consider putting two outlets from either 2 pumps that alternate by timers etc. , or 2 outlets from an OceansMotion valve that extend under the egg crate with "90's", and point not quite at each other from opposite ends of your under crate space.
This will give you an upwelling wave action, and a fairly well cleaned bottom space as well. The wave action will be adequate for most of your animals ( maybe 2/3 ), and make the remaining more specialized flow requirements for certain animals easier to accomplish.

> Barry :)

Barry, I was thinking of doing something similar. Maybe 120g, and basically put eggcrate down about 3" off the bottom. Put a maximod at each end, but do it by cutting a hole in the eggcrate, and having the maximod facing straight down, basically using the eggcrate as a bracket to hold the mjmod.. I think it would keep the bottom of the tank clean, and the egg crate would act as a diffuser. You'd have a ton of water flow, but it would be very light, and defuse. Water upflowing through eggcrate and rubble would have some particulate in it, so filter feeders, etc, in the rubble area should do well, but it would keep anything from accumulating at the bottom.

[Whaledriver]

I think the problem with a sandbed and a rubble bottom is the transition between the two. If you set up the tank to move the water towards the sandbed you might have a interesting system. Maybe a surge device that dumps over the rubble and pushes the wave towards the sand bed side of the tank. This needs a long tank so at least a 6 foot tank with a non standard hood and return system.
I am doing my rubble in a 30 gallon tank and trying to keep things under $5 a gallon for the whole setup. Needless to say used equpment helps but things always creep to $10 a gallon in the end. If price and space where unlimited a long tank that recreated the face of the reef from the rubble to the sand bed to the heart of the reef would be one of the most interesting tanks you could create.

[LazyReef]

It has been a while since I posted on this thread, but I have removed my rubble in th e 40 and I am running Bare Bottom on both. Since the change I now have a detritus bottom. (I will get around to siphoning and putting down some pretty white sand 1/2 inch)

I think that substrate in the tank, rubble or fine is a phospahte source (eventually) and I will run fine sand on the bottom only for decorative purposes. I siphong off half the sand out, rinse it under tap water and return it clean every three months or so. I use a very caulerpa prolifera packed 30 gallon tank as a scrubber and pod farm.

[Whaledriver]

When you have a under gravel plate under the rubble you have a modified bare bottom tank. With the proper water flow no detritus will collect under the rubble. This much water flow would also make it a good bottom for a sps tank. With luck you should even have natural frags created on the rubble as frags fall off.

This idea makes the concept of a rubble bottom visually attractive. The other benefits are the life the rubble supports.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8678035#post8678035 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LazyReef

I think that substrate in the tank, rubble or fine is a phospahte source (eventually)

Only with poor husbandry.

[Whaledriver]

I have been looking at my set up and thought of a new option. I could use my under gravel filter fittings and run a closed loop of water just under the filter plate. This would let me hide the pump under a rock and eliminate the tubes that come out of the filterplate on my existing setup. I currently use reverse flow UGF pumps that are not the nicest things to look at. Since there is so much water flow under the plate detritus wont build up. I also don't think there will be a problem of water becoming anoxic since there are so many holes in the plate water will naturally mix.

The end result of a closed loop under gravel filter setup will be a very uncluttered tank with high flow where it is needed to keep detritus from building up. The side benefits are eliminating a unsightly glass bottom and creating a heaven for pod like critters.
This would also be a nice SPS bottom since coral frags would form naturally on the bottom rubble.

[Claeth]

My SPS growout tank, a 75 gal uniquarium is basically bare bottom on one half of the tank (where the coral rack is) and a thin (1/2"-1") black hawaiian sand and rubble substrate on the other half. More sand than rock rubble. I believe that the rock rubble pieces shouldn't be stacked on top of each other to avoid detrius build up. The rubble in there acts more like an anchor for the sand in the high flow than for actual substrate. Also, I use the rubble as frag bases, and constantly replace the used rubble with new. The few problems that i've run across with the rubble is that it does trap copious amounts of detrius, even with the extremely high flow rates of my SPS system. This is easily maintained by simply gravel vacuuming the sand/rubble every time I do water changes. I also believe that by using the rubble pieces as frag bases, and constantly removing and replaceing them, I also am removing any concentrated toxins that the rubble may have absorbed, not to mention that the substrate gets stirred in the process.
Bieng that there is no large live rock pieces in the tank, I replaced the bio-balls in the built-in trickle filter system with about 25 lbs of live rock rubble as well for biological filtration. This tank has been up and running for 3 years now, and I have found great success with growing and propagating even the most difficult species of SPS corals like the Acropora hyacinthis (table acro) and I like the way it looks :) especially with the black sand. The only issues that ive had with this system is Nitrates, due to the trickle filter, even with the rock rubble as the main filtration media. While I would reccommend this method to others who are concious of their husbandry and regular water changes, I would strongly discourage weekend warriors to use rock rubble as a substrate to those who are lax in their maintenance routines. This setup definitely requires more maintenance than the standard sand bed tank, and would prove to be problematic if the regular water changes were not done. One thing that definitely helps with this issue is the use of the services provided by the copius nubers of Nassarius obsoleta and N. illanissa snails which constantly stir the sand by burying themselves and coming out for food. I believe this also adds to the health of my SPS corals by providing an additional food source, mmmm fish poop.

[cwschoon]

Claeth: a few giant pieces of live rock would help a great deal with nitrates. Anerobic bacteria in the middle of the rock will consume it. Better a few big pieces than the rubble you probably have in your trickle filter.
Last week, I put down a very shallow layer of CC and my "rubble"-so far-is several mushroom rocks. It looks great and would like a few pieces of Tonga. Do any of the sites like Dr. Mac sell Tonga in less that box quantity? Know any stores in the Northern VA/DC/ Balt area that sell Tonga rock?

[Claeth]

cwschoon,

I agree that some large pieces of Live rock would help out my system, yet the only issue that i have with adding it now, is the fear from the rock bieng not completely cured, and causing an issue that could easily wipe out $1000's of dollars worth of beautiful sps corals. It's too risky to try it. If I were to rebuild the system for any reason, I will definitely add some next time around. For now, the system is great. Sorry I don't know of any, you may want to try mail order, ive heard that Oceanpro aquatics sells some nice tonga and kaelini rock.www. oceanproaquatics. com

[Whaledriver]

I hate to sound like a broken record but I don't want someone to read this thread and set up a tank that is going to cause problems in the future. We have to learn from the past and not make the same mistakes by using a different name and saying its a new thing.

A rubble bottom that collects detritus will eventually create a problem in a tank. There is a place for a deep sand bed but putting that under a rubble bottom is just going to create problems problems. To put crushed coral in a place that collects detritus is going to create nitrates by design.

"The only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history"

I think the rubble bottom is one of the most interesting ideas to come along in awhile. It recreates a area of the reef that has been impractical in the past.

[algaeguy]

Does anyone have any updates on their rubble-bottom systems?

I'm particularly curious about your water parameters and maintenance practices.

I'd certainly like to hear from anyone who is working with this method!

Scott

[miatawnt2b]

Mine is doing great with a large bioload, though it hasn't been up very long (about 8 months).

90 Gal mixed reef, sps, lps, softies, shrooms, 20G sump.
Ehiem 1250 return, Seio 1500 for flow.
DIY recirc skimmer pulling about 1/4 cup nice dark skimmate daily.
About 1 gal Cheato in the sump. (would like more but don't have room)
1 quart Remote DSB in the sump.

150lb liverock (estimated)

Yellow Tang
Convict Tang
Green Chromis
Coral Beauty Angel
Half Black Angel
Peach Skunk Clownfish
Engineer Goby
Diadema Pseudochromis
2x Banner (Bangai) Cardinal
6 Line Wrasse

Pistol Shrimp
Peppermint Shrimp
misc snails and a few hermits.

As for maintenance, 3 gal waterchange every week. Once per month, I blow what detritus that does collect (and it is a fair ammount) around with a MJ1200 before my waterchange. Then I either drain my 3 gal with the suspended clowd, or I run a canister filter for a few hours depending on my mood and the time I have. I also prune the cheato once a month.

So far so good, params are good.

As with any reef, I think success depends on how much care you give it. I like the idea of a rubble bottom because it's easy to suspend ditritus and siphon it off, I also am never going to have to worry about a DSB crash. My thought was to change out my RDSB in the sump once a year. (it's in a rubbermaid container, so I can just pull it out, take out a cup of sand to reseed the new bed, throw the rest away.

-J

[Don424]

My 75g FWLR & a couple tube corals that has RUGF, canister and a "Rubble Zone" is doing just fine. I've done additions very slowly for over 8 months now.

All the parameters are good.......though nitrates were 20 before my water change 1 hour ago( I was 4 days late with this change so that's probably why they were a little high)......had been about 5-10 & PO4 is zero...........let's hear it for Purigen & Phosguard & RO/DI water...........algae on the glass or my powerheads is minimal at best and coralline is starting to spread:D

I'd consider my bioload low(but enough not to start problems) so that helps. My skimmer isn't working real hard.......just emptied 1/2 a cup of watery stuff today after the last empty 5 days ago. My fish eat 99% of what I feed once a day before it has time to settle and the scavengers I have eat the rest. I don't know........maybe it's just good maintenance every 2 weeks.............only takes 20-30 minutes to do what I have to do so it's not like its an inconvenience.

The rubble zone is a favorite area for my little solar wrasse and 2 small yellow coris. There is some kind of copodic or other life down in the zone cause those 3 fish are always poking and picking around there.

So far so good.

[algaeguy]

Good to hear!

Once again, it seems like the common denominator for success with rubble-based systems (or any system, for that matter!) is consistent maintenance practices, sound stocking, and slowly bringing up the bioload.

It's neat to observe the "foraging" that the resident fishes engage in. A truly natural behavior!

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

Scott

[Konadog]

Scott, I haven't had much time to update a few threads, but my tank is still going strong with a rubble bottom. As far as detritus accumulation, I have more gather under a few large rocks than in/under the rubble. I think the key here is flow. The biggest enjoyment of my rubble bottom is watching my wrasses pick thru looking for pods.

[Don424]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9125750#post9125750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by algaeguy
Good to hear!

Once again, it seems like the common denominator for success with rubble-based systems (or any system, for that matter!) is consistent maintenance practices, sound stocking, and slowly bringing up the bioload.

It's neat to observe the "foraging" that the resident fishes engage in. A truly natural behavior!

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

Scott

You hit the nail on the head with the common denominator. And Konadog is right ...........you need good flow. Problems that occur in tanks are a message. Many in the hobby don't read, listien or see the message because of lack of patience.

More than anything else I've learned about different equipment, fish, corals, or setups etc. in this hobby, is I think I've finally learned PATIENCE...........doing small incremental steps:). Any problems that come up during those slow steps are a lot easier to deal with and correct with damaging an entire system.

[Don424]

I meant to say WITHOUT damaging an entire system. Sorry'bout that ;)

[algaeguy]

I'm really glad to hear that the concept is working for everyone!

I've been giving a lot of thought to different kinds of aquascaping ideas incorporating rubble bottoms and different types of rockwork.

I saw some show on MSNBC the other night about the search for Atlantis, and they were showing some underwater scenes from Bimini, where you have (wether it's natural or artificial-to be debated elsewhere!) a more-or-less rocky bottom with lots of little channels. Like any other fish dork, I was more interested in the underwater scenes than the topic at hand...and I thought it might be an interesting type of bottom to duplicate.

This would be BIG (6"-12") flat slab-rubble pieces with little channels here and there...I was thinking that it might be cool to play with a concept like this, and maybe mix in a sandy area where I can plant some of my seagrasses. More to think about...!

Scott

[Konadog]

To funny Scott, when I saw that show some time ago, I was thinking the same thing about the underwater scenery. I asked, how could this be done in my aquarium.

I had another thought after seeing that, I wonder what reefceramics would do on the bottom partially covered with sand? Kind of the same idea.

[algaeguy]

Interesting, Ken!!! Wow- those reef ceramics would be perfect.

How are they encrusting in your tank now? I'll bet they look pretty darn natural!

I have a picture I cut out from the LA Times travel section about 4 years ago of a group of people snorkeling over the Great Barrier Reef, and the topography of the site they're snorkeling over is basically an aggregation of flattish rocks with lots of cool passages. I've been trying to figure out how to duplicate that as a "bottom" (well, actually an entire aquascape) for some time now.

Some many ideas going through my head right now...

Scott

[Konadog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9138391#post9138391 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by algaeguy
Some many ideas going through my head right now... .......... and such a clean slate to play with ;)

The ceramics do look nice. They aren't as dark as the rock yet, but encrusted just the same. When things prove to me that they are going good, I plan to put a few clams on the walls.

The thing about the wall plates is that they are bigger at the bottom, so if you were to use them on the bottom, you would have a slight slope to the front. Provided you put the thicker part towards the back. Fill in some of the deep crevices with sand and it would look quite interesting I think.

Time for a new thread "Anyone Tried a "ReefCeramics Bottom?" :lol:

[discocarp]

How are all of your rubble systems working out? Any pictures/updates?

[miatawnt2b]

still going great here. I don't have any pics, but will try and get some.
-J

[discocarp]

Pics would be wonderful! How do you have the tank setup? Are you using the RUGF or something closer to a BB methodology or something different? How long has it been running successfully now?

Congrats on the success! That's great news!

[miatawnt2b]

Set up for almost a year now, Faux sandbed completely covered with one layer of 1-2" rubble. I really like not having sand.

-J

[Whaledriver]

I have a 30 gallon tank with a under gravel filter plate. I have 2 reverse flow power heads providing flow. I also have a hang on the back refuge and a Red sea skimmer that has a surface intake. I was running on pretty low light with just 15 watt fluorescent and plan on upgrading. The only problem I have had is algae growth but I didn't have anyone in the tank to feed on it. I added a hermit crab and hope it helps.

All things considered I would say its a great way to not go bare bottom. Lots of pods and mysis also.

If I were to do it again I would do a closed loop with a SQWD with maybe a Rio2500 and put it under a rock in the tank. I think the pulse under the plate would be cool and keep detritus in suspension. Its not a problem now but I think this would add something.

[algaeguy]

Great to hear about everyone's long-term success. I don't think it can be stated often enough that the production of natural food sources (ie; copepods, mysids) and foraging areas is a huge collateral benefit of these systems. For those of you that are keeping lots of corals in rubble-bottom systems, have you noticed any difference in their growth/overall health as compared to other systems that you've maintained them in?

Seems like the common denominator in these systems is the use of lots of good flow and a population of fishes that like to forage (ie; Wrasses and Angelfishes). Keep the information coming!

Scott

[miatawnt2b]

one of these days I'll get hold of a seio controller and set a couple high flow stream pumps pointed at the bottom. That should keep the detritus in suspension. For now, I have been using a canister filter filled with floss during my water changes.

-J

[DidYouSayReefer]

This thread is awesome. It has taken some time to read but I think it is a must for everyone. I am going to give it a try. I will be moving in a month. I am going to start slowly siphoning out my sand. This will help me for the move anyways. Is there any way to make the dirty sand clean so I can save it for a future RDSB? After the move I will start the tank using the RUGF with about 3"-4" of rubble on top ranging in sizes from 1"-3". I have been looking to do I have been lokking to do something to help create a more natural environment. This will help provide a more constant food source. I have alos had problems keeping my sand clean and white so this should help. Is everyone employing this system drawing their water that is pumped into the rubble from a sump or the display tank? I feel that if it is pulled from the display, when you feed, it will just push some of the food into the rubble. I am thinking of having 2 returns from my sump. One to feed above and one to feed below to make sure there is oxygen for everyone. Any thoughts on this?

As far as coral and fish go, anyone have good suggestions for a 29 gal? I have a couple of montis, zoos, rics, and leathers. I only have one true perc and one royal gramma.

[ryan_paskadi]

I have a deep sand bed and lots of rubble in my tank....no ditritus buildup. I dont siphon or do anything to it. The rubble areas support lots of bristle worms and maybe they are consuming all the ditritus. I also have good flow so maybe that is the solution. I am low on pods though I never see them anymore.

[DidYouSayReefer]

Is there something eating all of your pods?

[ryan_paskadi]

Not sure what would be. I have one pretty majano anemone that I let hang out at the bottom becuase he has never caused any trouble. Besides him I don't know what would be eating them.

[nox99]

Nilsen and Fossa's Reef Secrets is where I got my idea for a RZ. They wanted a group of schooling damsels, a tang, and some shrimp gobies in the tank. A large 2' long boulder was to be placed off center and crushed LR and rubble for substrate with smaller rocks next to and around the boulder. Thought this was ingenius!!:bounce2:

[khaosinc]

I'm still in process of doing the switch as I am pulling out a DSB to do it. I'm leaving about 1" or so of sand in there for all the worms and whatever else lives down there to do what they do. So far I really like the look. I went "baseball to softball" sized rock from Marco.