The Plight Of My Nations Reefs(please dont buy wild caught specimens

[Ninja_Reefer]

Hi I come from the Philippines now relocated to California and I just wanted to say that dont buy wild caught specimens from the Philippines and Indonesia, as you all know Indonesia and the Philippines supply more than half of the global marine ornamental fish trade. people here are poor and the government is corrupt, they dont even care what happens to the reef, basically my nations reefs are dying out at an alarming rate and my people just dont care, they already wiped out some of the reefs at sulu(u should go there its very flat ill explain later), the ones at subic bay are at the verge of utter collapse Calamianes islands in western Philippines is under attack right now, i think the reefs in Luzon probably disappeared already, the pristine reefs of palawan probably the next target(they say they are trying to protect the reefs, but there was news that they guys assigned to protect them let in fishermen from hong kong to fish the area they where probably looking for lapu lapu(grouper) and hump headed wrasse(napoleon fish) considered delicacy in Asia.) but what kind of illegal activity??(besides previous example) do my people engage in to endanger the reefs:

1. dynamite fishing a cheap way to fish doesnt even require a net just a bottle full of explosive material throw in reef BOOM!! instant fish ready to collect at the bottom and ready for the fish market

2. when the people here are not busy collecting food by means of dynamite fishing there probably looking for fish in the reefs for the aquarium trade by means of cyanide fishing but before we go over that a brief history, Cyanide fishing began in the 1960s in the Philippines to supply the international aquarium trade. But since the early 1980s, a much bigger business has emerged: supplying live reef fish for the restaurants of Hong Kong, Singapore, and, increasingly, mainland China. Some 20,000 tonnes of live fish are eaten annually in the restaurants of Hong Kong, where rich sophisticates will pay big bucks to select a huge grouper fish in a tank and have it cooked for their table. well catching fish with is really simple all you need is crushed sodium cyanide tablets into a squeegee bottle of water, dive around a coral reef, find a fish you fancy, and squirt the toxic liquid into its face, might or not kill the fish but it will stun it so you could catch it. but what happens to the corals around the fish they all die now do this a couple of hundred of tiimes and the next day you will end up with once a reef now a barren place of death.


http://www.coconutstudio.com/surigaomarket_files/P1010008moymoyetc.jpg
victims

so what is the plight of my nations reefs theyll likely to disappear in 20+ years.

BUT NOW YOU KNOW SO DO SOMETHING TO PREVENT IT!!

[gophia]

According to my philippine friends, touching the coral reef without a licenece is a big nono! I agree the use of cyanide is still present but very low compared to a few years ago.

As for you statment of using cyanide to catch fish for human comsumption, I dought that since the residual levels of cyanide will probably sicken or even kill the person who eats it.

If you think that picture is representative of "fish victims"...............are you for real or simply trolling for an argument.

[Ninja_Reefer]

dont you believe me??? do you want evidence that people in my country get bribed to get in the reefs and people eat cyanide caught fish??

"Fishing with cyanide for the live reef fish trade (LFT) is destroying coral reefs across Southeast Asia and the Indo pacific. The LFT exists to supply live, usually large fish, to gourmet markets in Hong Kong, Singapore and other Asian cities."

http://tracc.00server.com/Fisheries/cyanide/cyanide_index.html

"From small collection centres scattered among remote islands each of these outposts gathers an average of 250 tons of Napoleon wrasse and grouper to meet the demand of their middleman in the principal towns of Ujung Pandang and Manado. This selective culling of a species that may live up to 50 years in the wild is considered totally unsustainable by marine scientists. In the short term however, a dinner plate sized Napoleon wrasse which may fetch up to US$800 in a Chinese restaurant in Hong Kong, makes good business acumen for the entrepreneur. Gourmet diners in Hong Kong are willing to part with thousands of dollars for a live fish and will go as far as checking out the freshness of their dinner by viewing swathes of flesh skillfully removed to show the fish's beating heart."

http://141.84.51.10/riffe/infos/cyanide.html


"Hong Kong’s insatiable demand for live food fish is altering the mode and pattern of coral reef destruction in the Philippines"

http://www.spc.org.nc/coastfish/News/lrf/1/5dead.htm

as for the police not doing anything

Manrique said illegal fishers are armed and the police are not helping the residents drive away the illegal fishermen.

"Sadly, we have the PNP in our composite team but they seem to abandon us when we ask for assistance," Manrique said.

(PNP=philippine national police)

touching the coral reef is a big nono but people do it anyway thats why theres illegal fishing

[Ninja_Reefer]

http://news.inq7.net/regions/index.php?index=1&story_id=14797
for the illegal fishing and for the police not doing anything

[billsreef]

gophia,

I don't know Ninja_Reefer, but what he or she is saying is quite real and sadly old news that continues to this day :( While there has been some work towards reducing cyanide fishing, there is a long ways to go. As it stands now, the supply of verifiable net caught is very small. Cyanide fishing for the food fish and the aquarium trade is still a very large problem.

Ninja_Reefer,
[welcome]

And also welcome to the US. Would I be correct in assuming that you came here for school?

[Fishy_Mark]

Well i dont support Cyanide caught fish, i do support net caught fishes, but i support even more captive breed fishes.
Cyanide is a sad story, allthou both fortunate and unfortunate Cyanide leaves signs, so if you have an informed eye you can tell if a fish was cyanide caught.

[B Pierce]

Ninja_Reefer, I agree 100%. Even if an animal is properly captured it is likley that it is patically totured untill it is in our tanks. I have heard of up to 90% of all cepholpods being collect die before they reach the US.

It isn't that hard to help the reefs IMO. Just know that care requirements before you buy fish and buy aquaculutred whenever possible.

Bill

[Ninja_Reefer]

Originally posted by billsreef
gophia,

I don't know Ninja_Reefer, but what he or she is saying is quite real and sadly old news that continues to this day :( While there has been some work towards reducing cyanide fishing, there is a long ways to go. As it stands now, the supply of verifiable net caught is very small. Cyanide fishing for the food fish and the aquarium trade is still a very large problem.

Ninja_Reefer,
<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

And also welcome to the US. Would I be correct in assuming that you came here for school?

yes i came here for a college education and plus i need a job, though i do miss it over there even though its like that there

[Ninja_Reefer]

Originally posted by Fishy_Mark
Well i dont support Cyanide caught fish, i do support net caught fishes, but i support even more captive breed fishes.
Cyanide is a sad story, allthou both fortunate and unfortunate Cyanide leaves signs, so if you have an informed eye you can tell if a fish was cyanide caught.

though there is no way to detect a cyanide caught fish although Location of collection may shed some insight to this, especially but not in general wild caught specimens from the Indo-Pacific(Philippines and Indonesia are the main culprits)

[billsreef]

Originally posted by Fishy_Mark
Cyanide leaves signs, so if you have an informed eye you can tell if a fish was cyanide caught.

Sadly it is not that simple. Many of the so called symptoms of cyanide capture that used to be bandied about were later discovered to be symptoms of poor holding conditions, by the same researchers when they did further experiments. It turned out that by simply holding a fish for 2 weeks without food was enough to cause them to exhibit the symptoms originally attributed to cyandie. The fish that make it to the store in the US or other countries will not exhibit any symptoms of cyanide poisining, however the destruction to the reef those fish came from is very evident at the point of collection.

[Gobydude777]

But would it really help if we stop buying them? Wouldn't many many animals be caught in limbo at the LFS? And sadly, although many of us are responsible, there are plenty of hobbyists that just don't care. :( I AM happy to say however that most everything in my tank will be Captive Bred.

[bigbenji]

If no one buys wild caught fish, the LFS will stop buying them. If LFS's stop buying them, wholesalers and distributors will stop buying them. In the end, the fisherman will need to find other means to make a sale. Basically, buy only captive bred. The movement needs to start somewhere.

[OracleOCA]

As a matter of fact, I will not purchase any seafood from the grocery store that originates from anywhere in Asia. And, I surely will not purchase any of my pets from that region either. It is a sad state of affairs!

[Ninja_Reefer]

its really hard especially persuading my parents to buy from Sea Food City(Filipino fish store), I tell them just buy Tilapia, Catfish and other farmr raised stuff but they want to buy samaral(various tang species even the naso variety), lapu lapu(grouper), even the mantis shrimp from time to time.....and many others.

lets just say its not that bad because in the old country its, well its not common anymore because the supply of Tridacnidae clams are almost extinct, to see them for sale in the local market its also pretty uncommon to see sharks for sale but i think they are destined for the chinese market, and one thing thats really sad is down south in Mindanao or Visayas the locals often kill the green turtles because its considered a delicacy(the eggs too) and they also kill whale sharks(i am not making this up) harpoon them and get their fins for the chinese market.

well im trying to tell my parents not to buy from that store and when the do go i try to go with them so they wont buy any lapu lapu and various reef fish

[Ninja_Reefer]

yes they eat Tridacnidae clams and Hipopus porcellanus is nearly extinct there, Heaps of broken unused shells can still be seen at “shells-cemeterys” today

[Gobydude777]

:( Thats terrible, many clams for the hobby are aquacultured at least.

[cortez marine]

Yes,
Its an old story and yet it has never been the subject for fund raising and career making like now.
There are a half a dozen groups feeding off the coral reef crisis in the Philippines [ and Indonesia ] that draw salaries and manage budgets and render virtually nothing in return.
Like AID groups that raise money for starving children in Africa...that feed no children in Africa....the current crop do as little in the Philippines despite record grants awarded.
Mind you, the grants in the millions are handled by foreigners with no track records in dealing with village fisherman...but they google up their "expertise" and parlay it into cash.
BFAR the Bureau of Fisheries has long paid the assitant to the director an American salary to secure themselves into the political system and the funding stream. He also serves as Marine Aquarium Councils country co-ordinator and has for years.
Regarding the aquarium trade and the grouper trades technical opinions
to the chief...they all pass thru this guy.
Before MAC he served as the go-to guy for another bogus group , the IMA ...International Marinelife Alliance. They milked the cow with BFAR submissivity for a decade.
Now, another group called MAMTI is set to take over and is powered by a budget in excess of 20 million dollars.
Wehave tracked these developments for years over at RDO....and would like to share some with you here.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
founder International Marinelife Alliance
[ resigned 1992]Posted: 26 Jul 2005 13:47 Post subject: Fellow travelers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RDO today....
Question;
How is it that the intolerance for the trades culpability and complicity for its role in environmental mischief is not transferable to the ones riding shotgun on it?
The shadow groups basing their salaries and existance on the trade must now share in its defamation as they have become long term fellow travelers with it.
Appyling the same scrutiny and the same outrage to these clans has not occured as they invoked environmental keywords and buzzwords to keep the shallow critics at bay.
I submit that they are not changing the trade so much as the trade is changing them. They are becoming subservient to it and they are "behaving' to continue to enjoy its rewards, much like petty bureaucrats whose mission statement begins with the self.
"They have become what they beheld."
Steve
Most of them resign and fade away....quietly. Quietly as they remember the non-disclosure and secrecy contracts they had to sign before joining.
Whistle blowers?....a few, but usually not as they were never environmentalists to begin with. It was just a job.
Environmental supporters may actually believe...but environmental office holders and salaried workers ...its just another job.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by B Pierce
Ninja_Reefer, I agree 100%. Even if an animal is properly captured it is likley that it is patically totured untill it is in our tanks. I have heard of up to 90% of all cepholpods being collect die before they reach the US.

It isn't that hard to help the reefs IMO. Just know that care requirements before you buy fish and buy aquaculutred whenever possible.

Bill
Bill, you keep stingrays and your avatar is an octo. Where do you fit into this "torture" process?

So what exactly do 5000 collectors in PI/INDO do for food/money once you remove the largest value to the reef item (MO- marine ornemental)? Do they farm, leave their village and go get a job in the city (and what does their family do when they leave and have little support to lend them?), roll over and die, what? I sure would like to hear your thoughts on this, heaven knows most know mine ;)

[Ninja_Reefer]

those 5000 collectors should get together and instead of destroying the reefs, they should show it to tourists, eco-tourism is the way!!

[cortez marine]

Oooh boy,
Perhaps 5,000 hobbyists can get together and force the industry to change also....easy, right?
Eco tourism is a small option in many and most fish collecting locales.
Non English speaking poor fisherman are the last to be hired and utilized in so called eco-tourism businesses.
Tourism...is already ongoing with a competitive vengeance by well financed operations who already understand the sensitivities and delicate nature of tourists.
Catering to them and working hard to keep them in luxury is the trick while allowing them the notion that they are eco-tourists...and hanging w/ the locals.
I have worked all my life in and around this sham option and I can assure you that a lifetime of killing food fish and catching tropical fish does not prepare one to enter the elitist tourist industry.
Elistist because the sheer numbers of fisherman exceed any requirements for kayak guides and scuba guides by a factor of 1,000 to one.....
Offering the placebo pill of eco-tourism as a way out of the vast commercial fishing business is a red herring and merely a sop to the conscience.
It is a harmful fraud to the environment to flippantly posit false alternatives to make one feel good and then act as if an easy alternative livlihood were available.
I've heard basket weaving and shell craft as a way out of the coraline ghetto as well.
Most of the fish from Indonesia [ Bali ]are collected in Muslim areas...and a huge and increasing proportion now of Philippine fishes.
In the post 9-11 era, Eco-tourism to these areas is not exactly a viable solution on this fact alone.

Minimizing the impact of the thousands of fisherman thru the promotion of sustainable fishing methodologies is more likely a practical solution.
In the case of our trade, the fisherman need net training and fish handling seminars...and more enlightened business chains who support and promote them, starting with hobbyists who say they care.
Sincerely, Steve

[Ninja_Reefer]

that too

[GreshamH]

Ah Ninja Reefer, you called for an out righ stop of wild caught, you can't have "that too" if you stop wild collections.

(tourist talking hear)
"Hi, I'd like to sign up for an eco tour of Mindinao"
(guide)
"So you'd like to donate to the MILF? How much?"

[Ninja_Reefer]

I realized that with proper management and control both people and the reef could benefit

[Douglas LEHMAN]

As a friend of mine is off to the Philipines, I asked him to bring me back some fish like the ones he brought back the last time he was there. "No problem Doug" he tells me, they only cost a couple of bucks in Manila and ship real well in carry on luggage.
Graet variety to boot, angles, butterflies, tangs, and giant triggers. All I'll need to do is quarantine the for TERMITES as they are of the hand carved/painted variety, finally some clean fish out of PI!

[Ninja_Reefer]

most of the Philippines reefs are located in Luzon and Visayas I suggest you to go there because right now, eventhough muslims only make up %5 of the Filipino population there are muslim extremists down there in Mindanao, they take foreigners as hostages so right now its a big NO NO although you could risk it and go to Santa Cruz Island which has pink sand(due to white sand mixing with corals), Zamboanga islands and Camiguin.
if you dont want to risk being hostaged by Muslims in Mindanao there are more reefs to see in Boracay Island, Bohol, Batangas, Cebu, Palawan etc........

http://www.sil.org/asia/philippines/imgs/phil_map_color_plain.gif

the map

http://travelpuppy.com/philippines/images/philippines-mindanao.jpg

Santa Cruz(the sand is Pink)

[Ninja_Reefer]

to the MILF EH???

[GreshamH]

I was just using one you'd get ;) Steve (Cortez Marine) was refferring to Bali. To be honest, Mindinao really isn't a hot bed for MO collections.

[GreshamH]

Did I get the acronym wrong :D

[pszemol]

Posting links to pages with profanity here is no better than posting profanity here. This is a family friendly bulletin board, please keep that in mind as you post going forward.

[cortez marine]

pszemol,
Beware the...
Moro Islamic Liberation Front
The MILF is the vanguard of the Islamic movement in the Bangsamoro homeland in Mindanao and the neighbouring islands. The MILF was formed in 1977 when Hashim Salamat, supported by ethnic Maguindanaos from Mindanao, split from the Moro National Liberation Front, advocating a more moderate and conciliatory approach toward the government. In January 1987, the MNLF signed an agreement relinquishing its goal of independence for Muslim regions and accepting the government's offer of autonomy. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front, the next largest faction, refused to accept the accord and initiated a brief offensive that ended in a truce later that month. The Mindanao-based Moro Islamic Liberation Front fields around 2,900 troops.

Steve
the one you refer to..."only in America"

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7457973#post7457973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pszemol
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/MILF

I was just joking :lol: I'm well aware of both a milf and the MILF's :D

[DgenR8]

This thread has lost it's focus, and taken a turn to "over the edge" Good job, guys.
[chimp]
Thread closed.