Third attempt raising clownfish...

[Kathy55g]

Just heard from my friend, and the parent clownfish spawned again yesterday. This time I'll pick up eggs on Day 8 instead of waiting for Day 9 and possibly missing the hatch. So I have a week to get ready, and I already have 2 gallons of rotifers and lots of phyto.

I'll post some pix of the set-up later.

Cheers, (I am so excited!)

Kathy

[spk]

Good luck with this hatch.
watching with interest.

What quantity did you start off with the rots to get to 2 gallons?

Thanks

Steve

[Kathy55g]

a couple of months ago I started with a tiny vial of rotifer cycsts from Florida Aqua farms. I thought they were not doing too well for about 3 weeks, and then they took off! They double every day if I feed them enough. I have kept this batch going for a couple of months, so it is hard to know what the starting quantity was.

How many rots you got now? I now have 2 gallons at 150 per ml.

[Kathy55g]

And i have a week to get to 4 gallons. Even if they don't double every day, I should get there with ease.

[Kathy55g]

Here are my culturing shelves. The shelves are WalMart plastic, less than 10$ each. Good enough.
Top shelf is for pumps and small bottles of dechlorinator and fertilizer, knick knacks, etc.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462shelf_top001.jpg

Next shelf with the shop light is for phytoplankton. I have nanochloropsis on there now.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462culture_she001.jpg

Third shelf stores bottles of chlorinated 20ppt salt water. Recently, it finally dawned on me that I can recycle my water change water. I filter the water I pull out of my display to remove algae and poop detritus through a paper towel (water I would usually pour down the toilet) and dilute it to 20 ppt. I just add 1 ml bleach per gallon and siphon into my bottles until they are 2/3 full, cap and store until use. The effectively sterilizes the bottle and the water at the same time.

Every day I add dechlorinator to one bottle, shake, add 14 drops Micro Algae Grow from FAF and ripe phyto to fill. Bubble away until next week. Takes less than 10 minutes.

Bottom shelf has gallon milk jugs of rotifers and set ups for brine shrimp. The lights are the discarded NO lights from my 55 gallon display.

gang valves are easy to attach by drilling holes and using zip ties>
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462gang_valve001.jpg

[Kathy55g]

More things that make this fun:
My microscope that was going to be thrown away at work.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462microscope001.jpg
toys:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462pipet_refractometer_petrie_.jpg
tools. How do you like my washing machine lab bench? There is a sink to the right that I spend a lot of time at....
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462dishpan_fil001.jpg
Got that little pitcher at the hospital after I gave birth to one of my kids. Sorry, guys, you can't buy it in stores!
The 53 micron rotifer filter is indispensable. I used to use paper coffee filters, but this is much faster and more reliable. That other thing is a plastic coffee filter, got it at a grocery store, and it is the right size for baby brine shrimp.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462rotifer_fil001.jpg

[Kathy55g]

You asked about rotifers.
I learned that I have to pay attention to the concentration of the rotifers, and to keep them fed well, and then they multiplly readily.

Still working out a few things. Some say you should add a little of the old culture water to a new jug when you are starting one. I found that after a while of doing this, I got a culture of ciliates and the rotifers slowed down. Ciliates, at least I think they were ciliates, are bigger than a phytoplankton, and a lot smaller than a rotifer (microscope came in real handy). And they swim really fast.

When I restarted the rotifers after filtering out the ciliates, the rots multiplied like crazy and were fine. I may not do that add old culture water thing again.

I have not used roti-rich or brewers yeast or V8. Just Nanochloropsis. If I run out of nano, I'll probably use yeast to maintain the rots, and phyto to enrich before feeding the rots to the larvae.

I tried V8 once with a small quantitiy of rots, and I think it killed all the rotifers, they certainly did not thrive. Probably, I did it wrong. It seems like more work than just my routine phyto culture.

Hope this helps. Sorry my descriptions are a little cryptic. My daughter is godzilla right now, and I'm a little distracted!

[Kathy55g]

spk, are you doing batch or continuous culture? If continuous, just keep adding phytoplankton as the rots consume it, and you should be fine. Don't forget to siphon clean the bottom almost daily.

If you are doing gallon batches ala milk jugs as I do, pour off a quarter of your full gallon to a new jug, and feed both jugs with phytoplankton until the water is light green. Bubble for a day and add more phyto tomorrow. When the jug is full, pour off a quarter (25% harvest) into a new jug or supplement a partially filled jug and feed all jugs with more phyto. After 3-5 days or when you notice a lot of gunk on the bottom of a jug, harvest the whole bottle, and throw out the stuff on the bottom. Filter the rots to remove them from their polluted media, and put3/4 of them into a clean jug with a couple of liters of dechlorinated 20ppt saltwater, feed with phyto. Put the other fourth of rotifers into a new jug, or feed your tank or supplement a partially filled jug.

I found I can recycle gunky jugs by filling them with water and 1 ml bleach and soaking them this way overnight. Next day rinse and dechlorinate and good to go.

It takes another 10 minutes a day to keep rotifers going. After initial set up costs, growing this live food costs:






nothing.

well, perhaps tap water for keeping things clean.

I bought micro-algae grow, the smallest bottle will last a long time, and dechlorinator I got for free from IMAC--vendors giving it away. I can't decide if it was free or cost 300$, my expenses at IMAC.:-)



Bleach, I suppose is an expense.



In other words, this whole thing is appealingly cheap!

Cheers,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

Wow, thanks for your responses.

Right now I am toying with continuous, I am growing both copeopods as well as rots, in seperate containers. Primarliy to see what the rate of growth etc is like.

Here in the UK, I have struggled this year with phyto. I seem to be able to get the first culture to take, but subsequent cultures just never go any further. I know that in the area, I am not the only one to struggle so. However on my last trip to the US I got three phyto cultures from Florida Aqua Farms, and I hope that this will improve my success. Out of curiosity what salt do you use?

I will be switching the rots over to Wine Demi-jons, I have 4 of these in total, so will see how these progress.

I will keep this culture of Rots on continuous for a while, increase my phyto production so that I have at least 2l ready per day, either for rot feeding or tank feeding, then I will turn on the rots production.

I am also interested in how you culture your rots, do you aerate, as mine are just ticking over by the window. I feed them about 100ml of phyto daily in two feeds and they are just clearing the water when I need to feed again.

I noticed that I also do not have a pure rot culture, as there are some copeopods in there too. These are not an issue as apparently they can co-exist. Just extra pods for future use.

I like the workbench and the tools that you have available. I too use a refractometer and have a PH meter that is real handy. What is the other toy that you have next to the refractometer?

Thanks for all the information and I will update you as I progress.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by spk
Kathy,

Wow, thanks for your responses.

Right now I am toying with continuous, I am growing both copeopods as well as rots, in seperate containers. Primarliy to see what the rate of growth etc is like.

Here in the UK, I have struggled this year with phyto. I seem to be able to get the first culture to take, but subsequent cultures just never go any further. I know that in the area, I am not the only one to struggle so. However on my last trip to the US I got three phyto cultures from Florida Aqua Farms, and I hope that this will improve my success. Out of curiosity what salt do you use?

I used to struggle with phyto, until someone here advised me to use bleach to sterilize the bottles and saltwater. The formula is 1 ml of liquid chlorine bleach to 1 gallon=3.7851 liters, so 1 ml to 4 liters should work. I mix it up, put into bottles and store them until use. I also bleach the rigid airline tubing, and the drilled bottle cap. Just before use, I add 2ml per gallon (US) or (~4 L) of a tap water dechlorinator like Prime. I don't know if the bleach and dechlorinator are the same composition where you are. You will have to do the math if it is not, to figure out how much to add of each thing.

After I started using bleach, I had no probems with culturing phyto, and I've been at it for several months now. Very occasionally, I have a bacteria bloom in one of the phyto bottles, and I just feed it right away to the rots. I figure bacteria are nutritious, too, and since the rots will be filtered in a couple of days anyway, the bacteria will go away.

I now use 20 ppt saltwater. I have at various times used Oceanic, Instant Ocean, and Corallife, with no discernable difference. I no longer care to use Oceanic in my display tank, so I used up what I had left for the phyto culture. Then I got some Instant Ocean at the IMAC conference, another $300 freebee, and I used some of that. Now I use the recycled display tank water, which has been Corallife for a long time. It all works for me.

I will be switching the rots over to Wine Demi-jons, I have 4 of these in total, so will see how these progress.

I will keep this culture of Rots on continuous for a while, increase my phyto production so that I have at least 2l ready per day, either for rot feeding or tank feeding, then I will turn on the rots production.

I am also interested in how you culture your rots, do you aerate, as mine are just ticking over by the window. I feed them about 100ml of phyto daily in two feeds and they are just clearing the water when I need to feed again.

I do have an air pump and an airline attached to rigid airline tubing going into the rotifer jugs. The bubbles are set to go more slowly than the phyto aeration. Too much turbulance is not good for rots, but some is good to keep everything in suspension including the phyto. I have them in milk jugs which are not clear, but are free, and since I'm cheap, I use them. Having clear jugs would allow more light penetration so the phyto that does not get consumed right away would continue to grow. I haven't noticed an increased need for additions of phyto since I started using the opaque jugs, and I still use a fluorescent light to culture the rots. 16 hours on, 8 hours off. They are on the same timer as the phyto.

Are wine Demi-Jons clear? if so, it would be better.

I noticed that I also do not have a pure rot culture, as there are some copeopods in there too. These are not an issue as apparently they can co-exist. Just extra pods for future use.

I like the workbench and the tools that you have available. I too use a refractometer and have a PH meter that is real handy. What is the other toy that you have next to the refractometer?

I work in a science research lab and that thing is a pipet that was destined for the trash, just like that old dissecting microscope. It is an old model pipet, and some say it is so hard to use that it makes their hands hurt. We are so safety conscious these days that my company would rather spend a lot of money replacing with new models that are easier on the hands, than deal with health issues of employees. I liberated it.

With it, I can sample 0.1 ml of rotifer soup, put the 0.1 ml in a petrie dish, count the rotifers at the microscope, multiply by 10, and that is the number of rotifers per ml. Very helpful.

Thanks for all the information and I will update you as I progress.

Steve

It is a pleasure, Steve, good luck to you, and please seek out other information too. I am new to this and am by no means an expert.

[Kathy55g]

CORRECTION:
The plastic coffee filter is too porous for newly hatched baby brine shrimp. I recently started practicing decapsulation techniques, filtered the first hatch thru this plastic coffee filter, and although it captured most of the babies, some got through. I may have to use the rotifer screen for this. Or part with some more money to get a slightly larger pore screen than 53 microns.

[spk]

Kathy,

Thanks for the quick response.

Yes the demi-jons are clear glass bottles, which I think wil be jsut right for the rots. These were given to me free so I am quite happy there.

For the phyto, I use 2l soda bottles, with 3 boys there is a plentyful supply of these. I too have drilled the caps with holes, one for the rigid airline and the other as a breathing hole.

I have been reading and talking to all sorts of people on this subject at the moment so there is lots of information around. I glad that you and I are talking as it means that I am talking to some one who is doing it now.

That microscope of yours is cool and it must be handy.

I will give the bleach a try and see if that solves my problems. Just to get it straight in my mind, you add 1ml of bleach to a gallon of water from your tank and let it stand for a couple of days. Then you add 2ml of dechlorinator before you start the culture. Does this work for the rots and the phyto?


Thanks for taking the time to chat.

Steve

[spk]

Kathy,

Sorry nother question. With so much phyto growing to you feed phyto to your tank too and if so what quantity?

Thanks

Steve

[ediaz]

Hello Kathy,

What nice cultures you got!

to remove algae and poop detritus
good to know where all that detritus comes from...:p




I use the same filter for artemia, have not noticed any going thru.
Keep an eye on the washer, rust, I know...
And keep the nano disk away from the ligth until ready to use.



used to struggle with phyto, until someone here advised
me to use bleach to sterilize
There's some very smart people in this forum...:lol:




Best of luck, hope everyting goes great this time

Ed

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by ediaz
Hello Kathy,

What nice cultures you got!

There's some very smart people in this forum...:lol:
Ed

Yeah, and some nice helpful people in this forum, too.

Thanks Ed!

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by spk
Kathy,


I will give the bleach a try and see if that solves my problems. Just to get it straight in my mind, you add 1ml of bleach to a gallon of water from your tank and let it stand for a couple of days. Then you add 2ml of dechlorinator before you start the culture. Does this work for the rots and the phyto?


Thanks for taking the time to chat.

Steve

Yes, I add bleach to the water, siphon into bottles, cap, shake up to coat all surfaces, and store on shelf until use, at least overnight.

Then as needed, take a bottle, add dechlorinator at 2 times the volume of bleach in the BOTTLE (not the gallon. One gallon = 3.7851 liters, a 2 liter bottle is approx 1/2 gallon, but I fill mine only 2/3 full, so basically, I add 16 drops dechlorinator, or 3/4 ml ) Sorry, you have to do the math for your situation.

Cap, shake, and use as needed to cuture either phyto or rots. If you are worried about not dechlorinating enough, you can use those cheap test strips for chlorine we have in aquarium stores here. Once I tested a couple of times, I knew the volumes were correct, so I no longer test.

For phyto, I add 14 drops micro agae grow and top off with 1/3 bottle ripe phyto. Apply air. Harvest in approximately one week.

Good luck.

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by spk
Kathy,

Sorry nother question. With so much phyto growing to you feed phyto to your tank too and if so what quantity?

Thanks

Steve

when I'm not culturing rots, I do feed my tank, and I give some to local friends.

I also store it in the refridgerator until my family complains or I need more for rotifers.
Cheers,
Kathy

[Luis A M]

Nice thread Kathy,and you´re doing things right! ;)
FAF sells a pitcher matching their rots collector.
Recycling used water is interesting.You save on salt and perhaps you can spare fertilizer.Except for the vitamins,used water must have enough NO3,PO4,and trace elements.I found in the past that this is the best way to obtain a ciliate culture,but I wasn´t chlorinating then:p
It´s easy to make a diy dechlorinator,will tell if somebody needs it.
As you are raising "L"rots (B.plicatilis)the small fast bugs could be males.Check for a bright spot.
I don´t think you need to light your rots/bs.You could spare some watts there;) .Have you considered sun light?.
Raising your own phyto,and zoo plankton is easy,fun and the right way to go to experiment and find new techniques.
In another forum,somebody was severely criticized by the moderator for suggesting that home cultured Phyto was better than commercial DT.:rolleyes:

[Kathy55g]

I've been following that thread, Luis. I agree that home culture is not better than DT's -- its different. DT's has no fertilizer residue, except for the minerals the phyto has consumed. It has 3 kinds of phyto and some diatoms. It has a cold shelf life that is decent. A lot of research and thought went into this product. It is a good product. It is, however, not what I need.

I need a very very cheap way to feed rots to feed potential future hopefully baby fish.
Fresh is good, I think, and from what I have read, and I get fresh from my home culture. And as I mentioned before, home culture is very appealingly cheap!

I also think DT's can raise rots, and they might be better rots, but they would be very, very expensive rots.

I think the best application for DT's, and this is what most folks use it for, is to feed phyto-consuming inverts in the display tank.

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by Luis A M
Nice thread Kathy,and you´re doing things right! ;)

Thanks!

FAF sells a pitcher matching their rots collector.

You mean I didn't have to have a baby to get one? Darn!

Recycling used water is interesting.You save on salt and perhaps you can spare fertilizer.Except for the vitamins,used water must have enough NO3,PO4,and trace elements.I found in the past that this is the best way to obtain a ciliate culture,but I wasn´t chlorinating then:p

Somehow I managed to obtain a ciliate culture anyway. I still add the same amount of fertilizer f/2 that I did before I used recycled tank water. My nitrates on display tank water are 0.


It´s easy to make a diy dechlorinator,will tell if somebody needs it.

I am all ears, err eyes! Please tell!

As you are raising "L"rots (B.plicatilis)the small fast bugs could be males.Check for a bright spot.

I think I've seen males in the culture. They look like smaller versions of the females and swim very fast. These things I think were ciliates were even smaller, and swam with a different path pattern. At 40x, I could barely see them.

Are the bright spots on the male rotifers or the ciliates?

I don´t think you need to light your rots/bs.You could spare some watts there;) .Have you considered sun light?.

Haven't thought about sunlight. My setup is in the basement, and there aren't any good windows. I suppose I could set something up upstairs, but then I may have interference from my kids, and it would not be as convenient. I may do it anyway, someday. It's a good idea.

...right way to go to experiment and find new techniques.

Or learn old techniques.
.:rolleyes:

Thanks for the comments Luis! Tell me about the dechlorinator!

[spk]

Some interesting thought there folks.
I do not believe that we get DT's here in the UK, but it is far cheaper to grow your own and educational to for the kids.

Luis, tell us more or show us more please.

Learning all the time about what techniques are being used, have been used and ehat has worked or not.

Thanks for all the comments.
Steve

[Luis A M]

Kathy,

DT,IA and home grown.

Well it is a lengthy subject and I don´t feel like going into that debate:D .Which phyto is better?.Yes,it depends on what you need it for;reef tank,growing clams,rots,copepods or green water technique.

In a nutshell,the "best "phyto is a mix of different species offering a DHA/EPA/ARA similar to natural phyto.A blend of NAN and T-ISO gives a decent proportion,as T-Iso is high in DHA while NAN is rich in EPA (but poor in DHA).DT does not give that,but it still is a practical and convenient product.



Old techniques?

Why,fresh new developments:p .Nobody has ever raised many of the species we are dealing with now,or kept corals,or raised calanoid copepods .This part of the hobby is very cutting edge,and new things show all the time.It is challenging and that makes it fascinating!:idea:



Sunlight

Well,some greenhouse window,or a high shelf (childproof) by a south looking window.



Rots males

They don´t look like rots,they are small and fast,and sometimes circle the females like bumblebees.They have a bright "eyespot"



Recipe

Get some distilled water.Buy sodium thiosulfate in a chemical store.Check how much Cl per L your house bleach has.Say it is 55 grams /L.Now weigh 55grams of Sodium thio.and mix it in 1 L of dist.water.Ready!

Now if you put say 1ml of bleach,you dechlorinate it with 1 ml of your diy preparation,always same volume.Voila!



:mixed:

[FFFrog]

I've been thinking of trying to do phyto in a southern window. Anyone doing this.

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by Luis A M
Kathy,


Recipe

Get some distilled water.Buy sodium thiosulfate in a chemical store.Check how much Cl per L your house bleach has.Say it is 55 grams /L.Now weigh 55grams of Sodium thio.and mix it in 1 L of dist.water.Ready!

Now if you put say 1ml of bleach,you dechlorinate it with 1 ml of your diy preparation,always same volume.Voila!



:mixed:

I have looked into doing just that. Sigma chemical company is based right here in St. Louis, my home town. Believe it or not, it is cheaper to buy Sodium thiosulphate from Florida Aqua Farms, than from Sigma!

I did buy a bunch shortly before going to IMAC. Right now I don't need it because I have so much "free" sample dechlorinator from vendors at IMAC.

Thanks again, Luis!

[Kathy55g]

I did try to culture a disk of T-iso with no luck whatsoever. Got any tips on that Luis, or Edgar, or anyone?

[spk]

Kathy,

I have never tried woth T-iso before, however I did get a disk of that and will experiment once things do get off the ground. I did discover that they use slightly different food than what you feed to Nan. Did you use the same of some different food.

Going to the LFS today to chase the progress of the system. I am having a stand made that will be 6' long and 2' wide and 5' tall for the breeding tanks.

Luis, I agree with you about the cutting edge, sometimes the old ideas pay off just as much as new ideas. I am the believer of the KISS principle. "Keep it simple stupid", that way there is very little that can go worng.

Getting back to breeding the fish and baby clowns, what is you plan? That question does not quite portray what I am trying to ask. Have you a single tank, multiples??????

Thanks


PS: What camera do you use?
Steve

[Kathy55g]

Hi Steve,
Assuming you asked these questions of me, my plan is to start with one hatch at a time until I figure out how to raise them. I have one 20 gallon and 3 10 gallon tanks, but after conversations with someone here, I may switch to dark plastic tubs if I really get serious about this.

I am covering the sides with a black plastic trash can liner of the 20 gallon tank, and plan to drip RO/DI water to reduce the salinity of the parent tank water to 25ppt as soon as I can. I will get the eggs on a tile from my friend, along with some of his tank water, put them in the tank and start a slow drip of RO/DI. An air pump with a gang valve will provide aeration of the eggs, not too turbulent this time, and maybe another line into another part of the tank to provide some air and flow, and then wait for lights out.

Hopefully they will hatch that night or the next night. Then I'll start the feeding routine in the morning. Sound like a plan?

As far as a system is concerned, I was thinking I might like to build something like what Martin Moe had in his book "Breeding the Orchid Dottyback" . It was a gravity fed system with a header tank into which water from the sump was pumped. Then between the header tank and the sump were broodstock tanks and larval tanks attached to the drain of the header with adjustable valves, and drains to the sump so 1 pump was needed to supply flow to all the tanks, and gravity allowed individual tanks to be turned on or off to flow without affecting the other tanks on the system.

I do not want to put larval tanks on this system, just brood tanks and grow out tanks, because these aged fish are more hardy and need the filtering capacity of live rock, protein skimmer, etc. I think a UV on the line from the sump up to the header would be good idea to hopefully prevent toxic tank syndrome.

I have no experience, obviously, so anyone with suggestions please comment.

I think I want to keep the larval growth tanks separate and just deal with them manually as per Joyce Wilkerson's book, i.e. water changes and a sponge filter after they quit eating rotifers.

I have gotten rid of some of my junk in the basement, and moved the wall of kids toys in storage to another wall of the basement, so now I have a space to put the grow out system when I get ready to build it. I was going to wait until I see if I can get these fish to survive before investing in the more permanent breeding system, and thinking about acquiring a breeding pair or two of my own.

Meanwhile I am feeding my pair of ocellaris a LOT of food in the hopes that they will spawn. I have had them for 2 years, they are beautiful, and are clearly a pair. One thing I have noticed since I started feeding them more is that the female no longer minds if the male eats something. Before, when I was feeding them sparsely in an attempt to control algae, the female would attack the male whenever she caught him eating. She left the other fish in the tank alone, but the male was not allowed to eat.

Then, for a little while, the female was hosted by my colt coral and the male chose to be hosted by either one of my toadstools at the other end of the tank. I thought they had gotten divorced!

Must have been just a trial separation, because now that there is more than enough food, they get along great, and stay in the colt together very chummy.

I recently got a Canon Powershot A75 digital camera. Still learning how to use it.

[pamsreef]

Kathy,

Your thread in very interesting to me. I recently found an egg sack in my tank from my two Orchid Dottybacks that I've only had for a few months. Quite a surprise! I'm trying to decide on whether to try and raise the babies and my concern was growing the rotifers to feed them.

I was planning to purchase the food for the rotifers instead of making it. Basically I feel like the rots are gonna be challenging enough. I'm undecided on creating a batch or continuous culture. From what I've read, the continuous culture is more stable. What is your opinion and what do you do with the rots when you harvest them? I'm wondering if there might be a market in my area for distributing and since I would need them for the babies anyway.

I just purchase Martin Moe's book and have alot of studing to do.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Pam

[Kathy55g]

Hi Pam,
Do you live near the ocean? I don't know anything about dottybacks, except that I've read Martin Moe's book. He did not have success with raising the larvae until he started feeding them wild plankton from tidal tows using a plankton net. He lived in Ft. Lauderdale at the time.

But then, he had trouble getting his phytoplankton and rotifers to grow. As you are reading, keep in mind that this book was written a few years ago.

Other folks on this board can advise you better than I can on how do raise the dottybacks. But my advice is to still read the book! I really enjoyed it and learned some interesting and practical things from it. I met Martin and Barbara Moe at IMAC and they are both very charming people.

Batch or continuous both work and are stable. With continuous culture, if the culture crashes and you only have one, you are done. So to be sure to always have rots, you need at least 2, in case one crashes.

If I am going to have 2 of something and twice the maintenance of 1, then I will do batches of 4. I did some calculations that tell me that my hypothetical larvae can consume 25% of my 4 gallon culture a day, and that is sustainable. So I do 4 gallons. Your results may vary. Also keep in mind that I have yet to raise clownfish larvae. I am speaking from complete inexperience. =o

There may be less risk from crashes with batch, because you can recover more easily if you lose 1/4 of your rots than if you lose 1/2 of your rots.

This is just my opinion. In some ways continuous is easier. But none of it is hard.

I started with cysts, but that is a slow way to start. If you know someone local who is keeping rots, get some from them. You will get a much faster start. You may be able to purchase live rots as well. Try Florida Aqua Farms. You will still need some food for them to enrich them before feeding to the larvae.

I've never used purchased food for the rots. Someone else out there? Feel free to chime in.

I feed excess rots to my display tank, and I give them away to friends locally. It is like a plankton bloom in your tank. The fish and inverts really like them. I have also frozen some for use in feeding juvenile clowns if I am good enough to raise some.

Good luck to you! Take your time, and learn as much as you can. It is really fun stuff to think about, as well as to do.

(If you do decide to order from FAF, and do the culturing of phyto yourself, get one of the kits that includes the plankton culture manual. It is full of interesting and useful information. And it is much cheaper to buy the kit than to do it the way I did, buying a little here, a little there, then the manual, and it turns out that even without shipping, I spent much more in little bits than if I had just bought the kit.)
Cheers,
Kathy

[pamsreef]

Kathy,

Thanks for your reply. I just got the book and have started reading it. I've been told to check out Florida Aqua Farms and Reed Mariculture for the Rots and food. I may be out in left field, but my thought was to used a 5 gallon bucket or two. I mean, if you use a small container don't the rots run out of room from multiplying? As you suggested, I was looking at the kits.

Have you actually collected the clownfish eggs and started feeding the rots?

Thanks,

Pam

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by pamsreef
Kathy,

Thanks for your reply. I just got the book and have started reading it. I've been told to check out Florida Aqua Farms and Reed Mariculture for the Rots and food.

I may be out in left field, but my thought was to used a 5 gallon bucket or two.
That will work beautifully. But I would set up two, in case one crashes.

I mean, if you use a small container don't the rots run out of room from multiplying?

Yes, they do run out of room. Every day a jug gets removed from the culture and harvested. Some rots from the other 3 jugs are filtered and put into a fresh clean jug with water and phyto to replace the one harvested. Now there is room in the other 3 jugs to feed phyto. Tomorrow one of the oldest 3 jugs gets harvested and the process repeats.

In this way, they are not left in a dirty jug for more than 4 days, 25% is harvested daily, and everybody is happy.

This isn't the only way to do it, it is just the way I have chosen. Many ways exist to raise the rots! :-)


Have you actually collected the clownfish eggs and started feeding the rots?

Twice, all fry died....
First time, I had too much air on the eggs and ended up with piles of hundreds of mangled dead fry.
Second time they hatched a day early, and the parents had a nice snack. I tried to hatch the remaining eggs with no luck.

Thursday I get to try again.
My third attempt rearing clownfish.

Cheers,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

You were tight on the button, yes I was asking the question of you and I thank you for the response.

I too have read Moe Jr's book on the Orchid Dottyback, thoroughly enjoying it. I am in the process of setting up a system but unlike Moe, it will not be gravity fed, however I will have the ability to turn off and isolate tanks where needs.

I will be using a sump that is 4'x18"x18" and have two tiers of tanks. I will be using a trickle tower to deal with the excess waste once the fishes start to breed, but more oin that later. The system I am planning will have on Coral growout tank that will be approx. 6'x12"x12" for growing Rics and others. Then there will be approx. 6 12"x12"x12" tanks for fishes. The return pump will be an Aqua Medic OR6500.

That is the plan at the moment. I am having the stand built around the week of the 17th September and then will start with the tanks after that. Once the stand has been built, I will have a better idea on how many tanks I will be having.

For black outs I am going to use black perspect that has been cut to size so that I can isolate a single tank. This will give me the ability to adjust to what I need.

It is just great to be able to speak to someone in a similar situation, just starting out and planning a system, rather than someone who has the setup already built.

Pam, sounds as if you have some funf times ahead of you. When I first started growing the rots, I could never keep them alive long enough, however this time things seems to be working. the biggest difference is that I used tank water to start the culture with and not fresh water.


Thanks for your replies.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Good morning Steve,
I am still a little unclear. Was the successful rotifer culture with fresh saltwater or used tank water?

[Kathy55g]

Steve,
What is black perspect? I've never heard of it here in the US.

Also, what is the food you use for T.Iso phytoplankton that is different from Guillard's f/2 (Micro Algae Grow)?

Thanks,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

Ok, the first batch of rots was with tank water. I was in the US when they arrived so Vikki, my ever patient other half stuck them on the window for me.

Black Perspex (Sorry spelling mistake), is acrylic that is coloured black.

I use a Cell-HI F2P for Nano and I have Cell-HI WP for T-Iso. I will have to hunt for the difference for you. But I get these from a supplier here in the UK that I believe sources from FAF.

Today, I have prepared 6 bottles of tank water, and put one uner culture for Phyto. i hope that this takes. It is old tank water diluted to ~20ppt. I have never used tank water before so it will be a good experiment.

[pamsreef]

Kathy,

My thought was to use water from my main system diluted with fresh RO water to start the process in 2 five gallon buckets. Would I then harvest a gallon out of each bucket daily and replace with more diluted tank water. I imagine that the food that I purchase will be quite a bit more concentrated than what you're making. I'm wondering if there might be a market in the Atlanta area for selling the rots that I harvest. How would you know how many you have (can you see them) and how much to used in tanks for feeding?

I wish there was a way to raise the babies in my large refugium, if there was a way to keep them separate from the rest of the system. Any ideas? I only have a pistol shrimp w/goby and recently a seahorse in there. It's approx. a 75 gallon tank with low flow and lots of pods and calerpa. The problem would be keeping them separated and feeding them without poluting my tank. If that's not possible, I have a 10 gallon tank that I'm not currently using.

I've read a little of Martin Moe's book and so far it seems quite discouraging. I would love to hear from people that have succeeded with raising orchid dottybacks recently and learn from them what worked.

I'm sure my 1st batch of eggs were a snack and I may have a new batch by now. I don't want to get too invested in this project and lose hope. I know it won't be easy plus I'm sure it will be time consuming.

Any thoughts?

Pam

[spk]

Pam,

Sorry to jump in, finish reading Moe's book. It is a facinating read and well worth it at the end.

Breeding and growing in our hobby is going to be the way forward soon, so although it might be discouraging to start with, while you learn what works for you. Keep your head up and remember you are putting back into the system.

Do a search on Lisa P on RC as she has documented her stories about both goby and sexy shrimp. Great process to look at.

Good luck.
Steve

[pamsreef]

Thanks Steve for the encouraging words! I will try to remember that in the future.

I will definately search for the thread you mentioned. The information available on the internet is a huge benefit to the survival of this great hobby.

Thanks again,

Pam

[David M]

I am a big fan of the gravity fed systems like Moe's, have set up a couple of them. However I do not really suggest it for densely packed growout tanks unless the supply line is huge, you just can't get enough flow. I screwed up the current system using a 1" drain to feed six tanks, should have been 2" at least. Had to hook up a pump to get enough water to the tanks.

[Luis A M]

I know it sounds herectic to say that Martin M.was wrong about something but his system with a head tank gravity feeding several tanks is wrong,it does not work.I talked about that with Martin once.To feed several tanks and be able to close one valve without disrupting the others´flow,what you need is pressure,which a head tank is not going to provide unless you place it high on the roof:p
All what is needed is a pump in the sump,with enough pressure and volume for the job,no head tank.
The only way a head tank could work as Martin says,is using it as a manifold,i.e.running separate water lines for each tank.Or using an extra wide delivery line as David says,in this case that pipe is the manifold.

[spk]

Luis, David,

Using a OR 6500 should give me enuff water flow I hope. I will create a loop that the pump feeds so there are no dead ends so to speak.

I am thinging of a similar setup to a shop setup.

Pam, if you have trouble finding that link let me know and I will locate it for you. There are several places that I she has posted.

Steve

[David M]

Or using an extra wide delivery line as David says,in this case that pipe is the manifold.

Yes, that is exactly how you do it, and it does work. Under pressure from a pump if you close one valve you will increase flow to every other tank, just like a gang valve on an airpump. With the gravity system you can shut off or limit any tank without changing anything else (maybe very slightly but not consequential). My point above was that it's fine for low flow applications but impracticle if you want to push a lot of water through the tanks.

I have a 1-1/2" feed with (5) 1/2" taps feeding one rack and it works great, but the 1" feed with (6) taps can't hold enough water so I had to put a pump on it.

Not trying to argue but I do actually like the design, just have to size it right.

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by pamsreef
Kathy,

My thought was to use water from my main system diluted with fresh RO water to start the process in 2 five gallon buckets. Would I then harvest a gallon out of each bucket daily and replace with more diluted tank water. I imagine that the food that I purchase will be quite a bit more concentrated than what you're making.

sounds like a plan. Depending on their concentration, you may not need 2 gallons daily. You only need to grow 4 times what you need each day, to harvest 25% (which I've heard is a good harvet rate to keep them from crashing.).

I'm wondering if there might be a market in the Atlanta area for selling the rots that I harvest.

I don't know, I don't sell them. They have a very short shelf life, though, if you want them to be live.

How would you know how many you have (can you see them) and how much to used in tanks for feeding?

How young are you? If you are over 40 as I am, you can't see them unless they are in high concentration and there is sufficient light. I have a microscope and a pipet. I count how many rotifers are in 0.1 ml rot soup, and multiply by 10 and that is how many rots per ml that I have.

For clownfish, one starts with 10-15 rots /ml in the larval tank, and I don't know what it is for dottybacks.

I wish there was a way to raise the babies in my large refugium, if there was a way to keep them separate from the rest of the system. Any ideas? I only have a pistol shrimp w/goby and recently a seahorse in there. It's approx. a 75 gallon tank with low flow and lots of pods and calerpa. The problem would be keeping them separated and feeding them without poluting my tank. If that's not possible, I have a 10 gallon tank that I'm not currently using.

I am afraid I have no helpful ideas or advice. I think you may wish to start a thread of your own to attract the kind of experts you need for this project.

I've read a little of Martin Moe's book and so far it seems quite discouraging. I would love to hear from people that have succeeded with raising orchid dottybacks recently and learn from them what worked.


Yes, me too. Martin did have great success but not at the beginning. He was very analytical and instead of getting discouraged he tried to think of the reason things went south. He learned from each failed attempt. He kept trying and he got there in the end.

I'm sure my 1st batch of eggs were a snack and I may have a new batch by now. I don't want to get too invested in this project and lose hope. I know it won't be easy plus I'm sure it will be time consuming.

Any thoughts?

Pam

Most likely it won't be easy and I'm sure it will be time consuming. Dottybacks may be more difficult to raise than clownfish. I have no experience in either. I think you need a thread of your own to attract the kind of expert help you need to help you succeed. I will be very interested in following your progress. Good luck!

[spk]

David,

Thanks for your response. I understand what you are saying with the size the system correctly and the gravity fed system.

Kathy, how are your rots doing? Have you manage to go beyond the second jug yet?

Thanks

Steve

[Warnberg]

Just tagging along, I just started all my cultures getting ready for my clowns to breed as well....

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by spk
David,

Thanks for your response. I understand what you are saying with the size the system correctly and the gravity fed system.

Kathy, how are your rots doing? Have you manage to go beyond the second jug yet?

Thanks

Steve

3.5 gallons today. I could get them to grow faster, but I want to keep the phyto population going for when the eggs hatch. Then I may need a gallon a day of phyto as well as rotifers! The rots will be at 4 gallons, 200/ml, I think, by Thursday when I collect the eggs from my friend's clownfish.

Steve, don't forget to do the bleach/dechlorination on that tank water before you use it to culture rots and phyto!

[spk]

Kathy,

Still trying to find those magic Chlorine test strips here in the UK.
Once I have one of those I will do the math for the amount of bleach and de-chlorinator I need.

Think I have also found a local supplier of Phyto, so should I have any problems I can get more to culture.

Thanks for the info on the rots. I will post a photo of one of the Demi-jons for you over the next couple of days.

Good luck for Thursday. Wil you start a new post or keep this one going?

Steve

[Kathy55g]

You could just try it on a small sample of rots. If it doesn't kill them, you are good to go.!!

[Kathy55g]

I picked up the eggs from my friend's house yesterday (Wednesday) evening to prevent the "early hatch in parent tank" problem I had last time. They did not hatch last night. Good.

They should hatch tonight! I have 400000 rotifers enriching for the next 8 hours, so I can feed the fry first thing in the morning. I turned down the bubbles so they won't get killed on the turbulence like the first attempt. We are in a 20 gallon tank, so I can increase the volume later after rotifers. Everything is ready!

I have to be strong to resist the urge to creep downstairs with a flashlight to take a peek!

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by kmleah
3.5 gallons today. I could get them to grow faster, but I want to keep the phyto population going for when the eggs hatch. Then I may need a gallon a day of phyto as well as rotifers! The rots will be at 4 gallons, 200/ml, I think, by Thursday when I collect the eggs from my friend's clownfish.

I've decided I don't need so many rotifers. 2 gallons at 200/ml is twice as much as I need, I've got the 2 jugs going in case one crashes, so I collected the rest of the rots this evening and packed them in the fridge in case of emergency. With 4 gallons, I can't keep up with feeding them without running out of phyto and now I need extra for enriching rots and making the larval tank green. I could use yeast, but that would be more work as I would have to clean jugs more often. So 2 gallons of rots, harvesting 25% per day should keep the fry fed without depleting the phyto bank.

:D

[spk]

Kathy,

Hi there, thanks for the update, did you pick up the eggs yesterday? Hope you did :)

Steve

[Kathy55g]

They hatched last night! There are around a hundred I think! Most are swimmers, some are floor darters. I just added the enriched rots. Still not sure about the light. I put a paper towel over the tank to shade it. And there is greenwater in the tank. Let's hope they start eating!!!!!!

Can you tell I'm a little excited? :bounce1: :bounce3: :bounce2: :dance:

[spk]

Definitely Excited.

This is such good news for you. Keep us posted and how did you enrich the rots?

Steve

[GrndHog]

Mine layed eggs yesterday, I havent made the attempt to aquire them yet, if I did I would leave them for 9 days?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/EGORCUTT/DSCF1655.jpg[/IMG]

[Kathy55g]

7-9 days from the time they are laid is usual. They hatch in the dark of night.

[spk]

Kathy,

are you going to post some pictures.

Thanks

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Backtracking a little, here are the egg laden tile and incubation pictures. I glued the airbar to the back of the white ceramic tile with silcone aquarium sealant to weight it down and make a space between the air stream and the eggs:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462egg_incubation.jpg

[Kathy55g]

try again:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462bubbles_keeping_distance.jpg

[Kathy55g]

see the eggs?
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462view_of_eggs.jpg

[Kathy55g]

I have 1-200 of these so far. I haven't found any dead ones, but a couple are doing the psychotic circle dance of death, so it won't be long for them. Still this is SO much better than I ever did before:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/521/56462batch3_hatch.jpg

[Kathy55g]

They are all swimming, hardly any lying about on the floor, and some are getting dark stomachs. I stayed home from work today to hover over them and take care of them.

The lighting seems to be OK, they are swimming around, not up, not down.

I am keeping the water tinted, and checking the resident rotifers to make sure they have something nutritious in their tummies.

Someone asked about the enrichment:
Last night I counted some rotifers, and did the math to harvest enough volume to give me about 400,000 rots. With this many, I can feed two times, to 20 liters tank water for a rot density of about 10 per ml. These I filtered, and placed in a clean jug with 1 liter 20 ppt water, and 1 Liter ripe phyto. Then I let it bubble for about 8 hours. Then it was morning and time to feed the little mouths. I filtered 1 liter of this stuff, and washed it into a small pitcher with ripe phyto and let that sit for about 30 mins to one hour. This makes sure that the little rots are chock full of the ripe phyto, so if a larvae catches one, it is as nutritious as possible.

[Kathy55g]

plus, they multiply, so there will be more than what I counted the night before.

[GrndHog]

I forgot to congratulate you on your milestone. Please keep up updated, I'm very interested in your process

[pamsreef]

O.K. How did the eggs get on the tile?


Pam

[spk]

Kathy,

This is great. Thanks for the pics. Those eggs look lovely, will all the little eyes.

Your babies look good too.

Good luck and will watch this one with interest.

Thanks

Steve

[GrndHog]

Originally posted by pamsreef
O.K. How did the eggs get on the tile?


Pam

I'm pretty sure she had the peice of tile in the main tank and the fish used it as a place to lay thier eggs.

[Kathy55g]

My friend is very smart and talented. I hope he is reading this.

My friend's A. Ocellaris lay eggs on the back wall of his display tank. My friend bought this beautiful, corraline algae look alike tile and hung it with fishing line over the spot where they laid the eggs, between spawning, of course. The next time they spawned, they did it right on the tile! very convenient!

[Kathy55g]

Found one dead. I looked at it under the scope, and it looks like its head never made it out of the egg. I will try to get a picture thru the microscope later.

[spk]

Kathy,

That scope is going to be a god send in the enxt couple of days.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

I am already loving it!!!!!

[Kathy55g]

Funny thing!
I was so worried about not having enough rotifers... I haven't had to add any since last night. They like the larval tank so much they are multiplying faster than the larvae can eat them!

[Kathy55g]

Funny thing!
I was so worried about not having enough rotifers... I haven't had to add any since last night. They like the larval tank so much they are multiplying faster than the larvae can eat them!

[Kathy55g]

so today I just scraped the tank bottom, and siphoned out the junk with airline tubing and fed the tank phyto to keep the rots green belly-ed.
Here is a shot from Day 2
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D2_group_2.jpg

I did a little playing with photoshop to get this one:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D2_3_white.jpg

[spk]

Kathy,

Looking good. Keep the post coming.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Only needed to feed them once today. They are getting some color in their tails--not so transparent anymore. I thought I saw a couple doing the tail kink to nab a rotifer. This is a good sign for some of them, because they do not all have dark bellies from eating lots of rots. Some are still orange from the yolk sac.

thanks to everyone for the encouragement. More tomorrow!

[Kathy55g]

Oh, and the death count today was around 10. Would like it to be 0, but I am not really concerned.

[Luis A M]

Originally posted by kmleah

Funny thing!

I was so worried about not having enough rotifers... I haven't had to add any since last night. They like the larval tank so much they are multiplying faster than the larvae can eat them!



That´s the way it is:p Unless you have many larvae,when you put rots and phyto together,rots multiply and you get a co-culture:p

So most of the times with the green water technique rather than feeding more rots, the thing is how to control the rot over population.Luckily with clowns this game is very short and you are soon playing bs:lol:

[spk]

Kathy,

How is the BS culture doing?

It sounds as if things are going swimmingly at the moment. Cool keep it up and will be waiting and watching.

Steve

[seaguy7]

Congratulations. Very cool. I am anxious to learn enough to give this a shot one day so tagging along.

-Greg

[Kathy55g]

Found some dead today. Don't know why.

Some of the larvae have orange stomachs still and are small compared with their black bellied brothers. Yet they live on. When I look at the dead ones under the scope, they look like they have green stomachs, so they must be eating, so why did they die?

Anyone have any insight on this?

Some of them seem to be getting darker on their tail section, less transparent. I hope this is good!
Cheers and thanks for your support,
Kathy

[Kathy55g]

Many have died. I have only scooped out about 50 and there are less than 20 left. I don't know where they all went....

End of Day6, I gave them newly hatched brine shrimp this morning, about 20 per larvae, but I can't tell if they have eaten any. The water is still cloudy with phyto and rotifers.
Yesterday I needed to remove about half the rots. I siphoned the water thru a plankton collector and returned the seived water to the tank.

I have an ammonia alert badge that says I am safe, but when I measured ammonia yesterday, it was at 0.25 mg/L, so I am not so sure. I think I will do a 20% water change tonight to see if that helps. Maybe my badge is broken!

When can I start them on cyclopeeze. I have the frozen kind. I checked my cyclopeeze under the scope, and it seems kinda big....

Your comments and suggestions are all much appreciated. I have a lot to learn.

Kathy

[Kathy55g]

After I did the water change, I spent a long time just looking at them. Some of them are dramatically bigger than others. The little ones were doing the s curve lunge thing, so I hope they will be alright. There are not as many rotifers anymore, and they are getting old, I think, so tomorrow morning I will feed some rots and some bbs.

The big ones have pronounced stomachs, and it may be my imagination, but they seem a bit orange, not just at the stomach. Mostly silver stomachs. I couldn't find any bbs in the tank, but i put so few in that they may be just diluted. I am not sure if they are eating them or not, but they seem quite stuffed!

Wish me luck, tomorrow is another day!

When to feed cyclopeeze? and is the frozen kind OK??

[Kathy55g]

Bump

[FFFrog]

I start with the frozen cyclop around day 7. Just a very small amount at first. I also skip using bbs.
I start crushed flake around day 5.

[Kathy55g]

No deaths this morning...phew!
Fed them bbs and rotifers, extra green.
They definately seem bigger. My daughter with her fresh 9 year old eyes, said they look a little orange.

Still dripping more water into the tank. I will do another water change this evening.

Thanks for the info on cyclopeeze. I will try some when I get home since it is day 7 for us.

I have not done the crushed flake, but it is also worth a try. My adult clowns love it!

Cheers, and keep those comments and suggestions coming!
Kathy

[ediaz]

What a relief? Waking up to live larvae huh?

It is good to try dry food at an early stage but remenber to siphon at the end of the day since at this stage most will ignore it and it will go to the bottom of the tank.

Where the dripping water coming from?

Ed

[Kathy55g]

Hi Ed, Nice to hear from you!
I have been using a gravity drip siphon from water from my display tank that has been filtered thru coffee filter, charcoal, bleached with air bubbling thru it overnight and dechlorinated. It is stored with air bubbling thru it until I need to add it to the tank.

[mako56]

Hi folks, I can see I gota try doing something like this. I have a pair of Maroon clowns that lay eggs twice a month or so. I will go over this thread and see what I can come up with. Heres a pic of some eggs ready to hatch.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/31094Internet_158-med.jpg

[Kathy55g]

That is the COOLEST microscope egg picture I have ever seen! Thanks for sharing it!

[mako56]

Thanks, I got one of those Ogle things for an anniversary present and just tried putting the camera into the eye piece and that's what I got. those are fish food now but there is another batch getting ready to hatch. Think I need to try that tile trick.

[Kathy55g]

next time the husband asks what I want for Christmas....

[Kathy55g]

Well the young larvae got some new chow today. In addition to rotifers, the standard diet, they got new hatch brine shrimp this morning, pulverized flake food and frozen cyclopeeze this evening. I just gave them a little bit of flake and a couple of drops of cyclopeeze. I thought I saw one of them eat a tiny morsel.
Hard to say since I am over 40 and the glasses never do work that good.

Couple of hours later I did a thorough scrape and vaccuum of the floor.

The larvae are definately bigger, most of them. When one swims next to the black side of the tank, I can see that the tail is really long. I can't see the tail normally when I look down into the tank because it is transparent and the tank bottom is white.

The stomachs are really big today, too, and might be turning orange (over 40, be kind).
The side view of the larvae is very interesting. They are taking on the shape of real fish.

One is near the bottom, darkly pigmented and swimming head up, with his tail nearly touching the bottom. Just hanging out there. I figure it is either the beginning of metamorphosis, or the beginning of death.

A couple of others are doing that head banging thing on the side of the tank. All sides are encased in black plastic, so the light should not be causing it. One crazy guy is trawling the surface. I would be worried, but he appears to be well fed. Perhaps this is just his method of food capture. Are there psychologists for fish?

I do hope some survive metamorphosis. I have a list of takers, now I just need the fish to distribute.

I also want to take some pictures of lots of baby clowns. That would be sweet!

Bedtime, and on to day 8!
Pictures on the weekend. I just can't manage during the week. I have pix of almost every day.

Cheers,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

Great updates. keep them coming. Only a few weeks now before I am in a position to egg trawl those Marine keepers around where I live.

It sounds both exciting and frustrating at the same time. Keep on going and I wish you luck with this batch.

I agreee with the ogles thing. That is a really neat picture and is already on my christmas list. Vikki, my better half, had already spotted it when I metioned it to her some time ago.

Anyway. good luck with getting past Day 9.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by spk
Kathy,
...Anyway. good luck with getting past Day 9.

Steve

STILL WORKING ON DAY 8!

Nice to hear from you Steve! :) Haven't lost any in a couple of days, so I guess the ones that couldn't figure out how to eat have already expired.

The dark tail stander has been named by my daughter: Speedy. She saw it speeding across the tank once. I think it will be the first metamorphoser (is that a word?).

The others are growing too. I got a good side view in the clear morning water, and they are really taking on the classical fish shape and with orange bellies. :fish1: Their tails are remarkably long and graceful.:)

Anyone who thinks new hatch brine shrimp are easier than rotifers is nuts. I spend 3 x the time to get the shrimp ready as I did for the rotifers. I guess since you don't need phyto for them, that makes it easier. Planning makes phyto very easy, though, in my opinion.

pH is 7.7, with 0.25 mg/L ammonia-- not terrible. I think I'm going to siphon the bottom twice a day until after metamorphosis. Particularly with the dead food going in now. Can't afford too much ammonia.

Good luck with your setup, Steve. You should start a thread on this board so we can follow your progress. I am contemplating a multiple tank set up, but need more thought and advice before I start to build.:cool:

Cheers,
Kathy
:) :fish1:

[spk]

Kathy,

I will start the thread as I start the process. Only one more week to go before the thing starts.

Looking at some second hand tanks but wil wait till I have the frame built.

Glad to see the kids are taking an interest, us oldies need some fresh blood to come into the hobby now.

Take it easy and keep us posted.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Lesson learned: Never let your daughter name a fish.

Now she wants to keep it. She cried for 30 minutes over this larvae that might die tomorrow, and that she has looked at, and formed a deep attachment to, for all of ten minutes.

[Kathy55g]

No losses today. Larvae are noticably bigger and fish shaped. In the corner are two dark larvae, and I think I am seeing white head bands on them! They are acting weird, with their noses to the silicon, but this may be metamorphosis! I also saw one orange one with a headband, I think.

Wilkerson says that ocellaris have orange color through metamorphosis, whereas other strains of Amphiprion are dark. If I am seeing what I think I see, I have two dark ones and one orange one. I wonder if there is some kind of cross breed that occured at one time to give this result. Or perhaps they start dark and turn orange.

The rest of the larvae lag behind, but I expect they will change in the next couple of days. I don't know why I expect that, but I do. It will be interesting to see what color they will be.

I do hope they all survive, if for no other reason than my daughter will be heartbroken if Speedy dies.:(
I suppose I will too. One does get attached....

Cheers, more tomorrow,
Kathy

[Kathy55g]

Today is my lucky day.

It looks like they will all survive metamorphosis. Most have headbands, and all have the thickened bodies of real fish. They are not just eyes, stomach, and tail anymore! Tomorrow I will try to process some more pictures. I got some tonight of the headbands and I think a dramatic shot of an immature one. We'll see when I get them on the computer.

I think the dark color I was seeing may have been a lighting effect from the dark background of the tank. I think they are all orange.

Their stomachs are all orange now. I need to check the book, but I think I may be able to discontinue rotifers and just do the new hatch brine shrimp.

I did do a siphon cleaning breifly this evening, and I think I sucked out some older shrimp. I hope they don't try to eat things that are too big for them. ....

Tomorrow I will add the sponge filter and see how they do with that. It would be good to reduce the ammonia. It is not terribly high, but any reading other than 0 makes me nervous. pH=7.7, so perhaps it is not too dangerous.

Anthony Calfo came to St. Louis for a talk today hosted by our local club. What an awesome speaker, and a creative guy! And incredibly nice!

I had all the luck today, too. In the raffle, I won 2 corals and a collection of Anthony and Bob Fenner's new posters. I got all five signed by Anthony. In one of the corals was a nice little asterina star and 3, THREE mini brittle stars. Will the luck never end?

I'm going to bed before something bad happens...
Cheers,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

This is excellent news. A good day all round. I wish we had access to some of the people that you can get to meet.

Enjoy and cannot wait to see some pictures.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Anthony travels a good deal. He is in Europe a lot. If your club invited him, and paid him something I am sure, he would come!

[spk]

We will have to work on that one a little.

Hope things are going well with the litle ones.

Steve

[Conceyted]

subscribed for your update today

[Kathy55g]

Please keep in mind that it is very hard to take pictures of tiny critters, moving fast, under water in a sea of rotifers and phytoplankton. I have a close up lens that helps, but focus is a problem, and remember I am over 40 so even looking is a problem.
Needless to say, I am still pleased with most of these shots and I hope you will enjoy them.

DAY 4
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D4_06.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D4_34.jpg

[Kathy55g]

Please keep in mind that it is very hard to take pictures of tiny critters, moving fast, under water in a sea of rotifers and phytoplankton. I have a close up lens that helps, but focus is a problem, and remember I am over 40 so even looking is a problem.
Needless to say, I am still pleased with most of these shots and I hope you will enjoy them.

DAY 4
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D4_06.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D4_34.jpg

[Kathy55g]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D6_08.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D6_13.jpg

[Kathy55g]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D7_21.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D7_24.jpg
Note how long the tails are and how they curl. This is a sign of impending metamorphosis.

[Kathy55g]

Today we have white headbands!
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_55.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_57.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_58.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_59.jpg

[Kathy55g]

Overhead shot of orange fish with white stripe.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_62.jpg
Corner reflection. Note white head band.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_64.jpg
I liked these reflections, thought I would share
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_65.jpg
This guy swam close to the glass so I could take his picture
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_74.jpg
another
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_78.jpg
Here's looking at you, kid!
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_79.jpg
Fuzzy 10x shot with mouth open:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462D9_87.jpg

[Kathy55g]

many of these are too dark to see. I'll see what I can do.... bummer.

[spk]

Kathy,

Thanks for the pics. Finally we see what is going on. That last pic, reminds me of one of the Alien creatures.

They are really cool. Good luck and keep the updates coming.


Steve

[Kathy55g]

Beginning of 12th day:
Some fish are heading to the bottom, but they are still alive! I got a really good view of them this morning as I am winding down rotifer feeding because they all are eating bbs and , I think, frozen cyclopeeze. Most are orange, some are still dark, about 3 do not have their first band yet, but are eating well.

The great thing is that I got a good count of them this morning and I think I have not 13, but 16!!!!!

Another great thing is I was talking to the owner of the LFS, and she said she would buy any excess ocellaris I could raise. So I can do this again! Waiting for the parents to spawn, and wonder where I'm going to put another tank....

Need to get a system set up, but I have too many ideas running around in my brain. I would love to see a small set up, if anyone has pictures, please post them so I can get some ideas!

Cheers,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

Here is a thread that was started about other peops setusp.


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110075

I have asked a similar question and got pointed to this one I think.

Have a read.

Steve

[mako56]

That is really awesome. My next batch of eggs hatched already and became fish food I am going to try to get ready for next time. I looked in my tank last night with the Ogel and there are all kinds of little creatures that you can't really see with your eyes. I wonder if some of them could be rotifers?

[Kathy55g]

i think i need more detail...but that's for another thread.

[Kathy55g]

Well...
A couple of days ago I thought I had 12 or 13 little swimmers. Tonight I counted 18, EIGHTEEN!!!!!

All have one stripe, most are orange, and about 3 or 4 are getting their second white band.!!!!

My little babies are growing up!
still hard to get pix...

[spk]

Kathy,

This is great news. I am glad to see that your numbers are increasing.

:D

Keep the notes coming.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Make that 17...One little guy died today. This is the first death in many days. He had not reached metamorphosis, now at Day 14. I guess there was something wrong with him or my care of him. I have one more that is filled out and dark, but with little or no head band, so I hope this one makes it through. The rest of them seem to be doing well, eating I think, with many having their second white band and looking more orange all the time.

I did a water change today, little over 2 gallons out of 12 gallons. First use of ASW not pre used by my display, but just aerated overnight. I did adjust the pH of the new saltwater down to 7.7 (a few drops of lime juice, keeping an eye on the pH meter) because that is what the baby clowns are living in, and there is some ammonia. I did not want to make it more toxic by adding high pH water (8.1).

First I vacuumed out debris, then set up a bucket of the new water with an airline tubing and valve on a higher table to siphon the new water in at a drip, but faster than 1 drop per second. It was what I would call a fast drip. I did not pre heat the water as I added it slowly enough, I think, the aquarium heater in the larval tank could keep up, and my basement is at 77F anyway, only 3 degrees lower than the 80F at which I keep the larval tank.

I did not add rotifers today. In fact I tried to remove them with the water change. The fish seem uninterested in such small food, and only seem to feed when the bbs and cyclopeeze and dried food hits the water. The sponge filter is doing a pretty good job sucking out junk. Everyday I have been squeezing it out in saltwater and I get a lot of nasty stuff from it.

Now that I'm not adding phyto to the tank it is a lot easier to see the fish!

Clear water is a lovely thing, and I hope the baby fish enjoy it too.

Cheers,
Kathy

[Kathy55g]

My ammonia seems to be climbing despite the addition of the sponge filter and doing a pretty good water change.

So I tested my fry tank water and found some ammonia, well the ammonia alert badge told me that.
Then I tested my water change water and found the same level of ammonia....hmmm...

I had just mixed up some new water for tomorrow's water change, tested that,


ammmonia!

Then I went nuts and tested everything again and in addition my RODI water and the display tank containing 70 lbs of live rock.

You guessed it, the only one with no ammonia was my display tank water.

No wonder the ammonia in the fry tank did not go down.

Perhaps I need new filters on the RODI?

Man what a shocker! I have been adding ammonia with each water change and top off!

Perhaps that is why so many fry died in the early days...

[Warnberg]

You have an ammonia reading coming from your RO/DI unit? What about straight tap water? did you test it as well.... that doesn't sound good at all...

[Kathy55g]

RODI and tap are = in ammonia, around 3 mg/L. I am in a dilemma now as I can get ammonia free water from my display tank, but it is at salinity 36 ppt. My fry tank is at 25 ppt. Not a match. But I have nothing to dilute my display water with, as every water has ammonia in it.

I changed the sediment and carbon filters in my RODI just now, but the TDS are around 21, and the ammonia is only marginally better than tap water.

Any advice out there?

[ediaz]

Yeah there is, check your inbox...

[Kathy55g]

I got nothing Ed. Nothing in inbox or pm. Desperate....

[Kathy55g]

Crisis averted. Called Ed on the phone. We think that the test kit is bad but just in case got some RO at the store to dilute my display water.

I've calmed down now.

More advice from Ed was to connect my fry tank to a system with a biological filter. Going to do that asap.

ed gives good advice.

[David M]

ed gives good advice.

Thats what I've heard :D

[Kathy55g]

What a horrendous day. I never did make it in to work and I've been fooling around with the fish stuff all day.

Ammonia. It's in the tap water, my RODI water, and so everything I make with it. Turns out my test kits were good. I went to the LFS and asked them to test my freshly made up RODI saltwater, and it came back at 3 mg/L!!!!!!!!!

My poor fish. I think another one is trying to die this evening. Another not quite metamorphoser.

I have set up a rinky dink sump-like tank with about 15 pounds of live rock from my display (2 year set up) and display tank water. Then I slowly aclimated the rock to 25 ppt with a drip of RO water from the grocery store (0 ammonia). Then I set up an aqualifter pump to trickle water from the sump to the tank and also set up a coffee filter siphon to get water from the tank to the sump. I have been pretty lucky getting the flows to match, but I'm a little nervous about going to bed tonight. I may have to turn it off when I am not watching it.

Given that I cannot make ammonia free unsalted water, I need to set up a system ASAP!! I need to figure out where to get tanks drilled, set up some shelving system and a sump for live rock and a pump to get water up to where it needs to go. I am clueless.

How big should the diameter for the bulkheads and the plumbing be...How much pump do I need...How to make an overflow. I will have to see if I can get some help locally.

If anybody wants to give me some advice on this, now would be a good time...

Wish me luck,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

Deep breath. Thinking of you and the struggles you are having. What ever you decide to go for you basically want the exit bulkheads to be twice the flow of the inlet diameter. |
Right now you do not need to worry overly much about the flow through the system as you need it to turn over the water through the filters more than anything else.

I am sorry that I am not closer to you as I could have lent a hand and some extra kit.

Good luck and will be watching how you progress.

Steve

[pamsreef]

Kathy,

I'm a little confused why your display tank doesn't have ammonia but since it doesn't why don't you use some of that water and dilute it with water from the lfs. It probably wouldn't take much. Of course, this would just be for the time being.

Just wondering when you can raise the salinity in the nursery tank?

By the way, I haven't decided to get on the roller coaster with raising dottyback babies yet. It's alot to consider (time & money). I also have a pair of clown gobies that are constantly making eggs. I check your progress daily.

Good luck,

Pam

[Kathy55g]

Nice to hear from you Pam.
The display has no ammonia because it has lots of live rock bacteria that process the ammonia to nitrate and or nitrogen. It has been cycled for over 2 years.

I have been using the display tank water and diluting it with my own RODI not knowing that it had ammonia. Unfortunately, the LFS water has ammonia in it too. The only water that does not is the grocery store water, which probably comes from out of town and is RO treated.

I don't think you ever raise the salinity. My LFS keeps their fish only tanks at low 1.020 specific gravity, some of the fish I will sell to them. Helps keep them healthy I think.

Great to hear that you enjoy the thread. Say something once in a while so I know you are there!
Cheers,
kathy

[Kathy55g]

So I now have a sump for the babies with live rock, a powerhead, heater and a maxijet 1200 that pumps up to the tank. I have a second hand CPR overflow with Aqualifter that, once I figured out how the thing works, is working quite well. I taped some synthetic fabric over the inlet to the overflow so that the fish and brine shrimp would not get lost in the sump. I'll probably have to change that daily. There is also a lot more water now in the system, probably 25 gallons. I topped it up with display water diluted with grocery store RO.

The ammonia is the same, but the system has only been running for a couple of hours.

The fish seem the same, except bigger.

What concerns me is that they hang around at the surface, nose up, like they are sucking air all the time. I know this is not normal fish behavior, but is it normal for baby clowns?

Do they have permanent gill damage from living in low level ammonia?

[Kathy55g]

The clown babies seem better this evening. More of them are swimming in the body of the tank, instead of clustering at the surface. I can really tell that they are eating because they are eating bigger particles and I can see them approach, and snap their mouths around it, and then its gone. I start their day with finely crushed Formula 1 flake around 5:30, and later cyclopeeze, and then baby brine shrimp just before I go to work at 8:30 - 9am. Their stomachs really turn orange and bulge. When I get home, they get some more flake and cyclopeeze, sometimes bbs if I have some left, I siphon their tank, and then lights out around 10.

The fish seem remarkably bigger today! Maybe it is because they are higher up in the tank since I raised the water volume. It is Day 18 for them.

The parent fish have spawned again, but I am going to pass on this batch as I have some work to do for my kids' schools, and I want to get a system set up to handle multiple batches before I hang myself again. I'm keeping a small collection of rotifers going, and I'll just refrigerate the excess phyto until I need to start up again.

Cheers,
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

This is really cool. Sounds as if you are nearly there.
Any chance of some updated pics of the little ones?

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Hi Steve,
May have to wait for the weekend. It takes me a long time to resize, upload to gallery, and then post. No time now.
Look forward to pix in your thread, though.
Cheers
Kathy

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by kmleah

What concerns me is that they hang around at the surface, nose up, like they are sucking air all the time. I know this is not normal fish behavior, but is it normal for baby clowns?

Do they have permanent gill damage from living in low level ammonia?

Ed replied in another thread that this is normal, though he does not know why they do it.

This morning they seemed to do it less than before. I am relieved.

[Kathy55g]

Fish are getting bigger daily. Pictures this weekend.

I feed them some cyclopeeze every day, the frozen kind. The ignore the bigger bits and do seem to eat the tiniest pieces, but it is not the feeding activity that I see when I give them the NH brine shrimp. They just go on search and destroy! I may see if I can find the dried kind of cyclopeeze so I can mill it to a size they can use.

They do take flake food well.

Anyone else have experience with the frozen kind of cyclopeeze?

[kevin21]

yes!, i have two percula clowns and they eat it in seconds!!! they love it

[Kathy55g]

I know I've skipped a bunch of days, but Here are some Day 21 shots:

This guy is starting to get his third band:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/564623_stripe_Day_21.jpg

[Kathy55g]

morehttp://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462full_belly_221.jpg
This one just ate!

[Kathy55g]

more
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462Day_22_twins226.jpg

[mako56]

Its hard to tell how big they really are. What is their size?

[spk]

Kathy,

WOW :p :D

That is all I can say. So you have done it. Yipeeeeeee!

They are soo cooool.

Steve

[ediaz]

Those shots still impress me.

Congratulations Kathy!

Looking forward to 4th attempt raising clownfish...

Ed

[Vert20]

Excellent work Kathy! Sticking with it pays off again, and again!

Keep the pics coming!

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by mako56
Its hard to tell how big they really are. What is their size?

They are about 3/8 inch long. Some are smaller, but most are that big.

I have a couple of late metamorphosers who have only 1 stripe now, and a couple big guys that have all 3 stripes, but most have 2.

It's fun to watch them eat, and that's a good thing, cause they eat frequently! I put them on an auto-feeder for a midday meal of powdered flake while I'm at work.

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by ediaz
Those shots still impress me.

Congratulations Kathy!

Looking forward to 4th attempt raising clownfish...

Ed

Thanks Ed, particularly for all your help getting me through this.
There is nothing like being able to ask the expert!

October 12, or thereabouts, is target date for the next batch of eggs. I hope to have a system set up and school obligations concluded by then, so I can devote some time to an ammonia free larval tank!:D

[ediaz]

There is nothing like being able to ask the expert!

Remenber is not what you know but who;)
I have my experts too, that help me and guide me a lot

so I can devote some time to an ammonia free larval tank!


Somebody should make little diapers for larvae.

Ed

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by ediaz

Somebody should make little diapers for larvae.

Ed

Ya, disposable ones...:cool:

Seriously, though, despite doubling the tank volume with ammonia free water, addition of a, by now!, seasoned sponge filter, 15 pounds of 2 year cured live rock from my display in a sump under the tank, and twice a day scraping and siphoning the tank bottom, total ammonia is still 3 mg/L!!! pH is 7.9 right now, so I'm a little worried,



But the fish are growing like crazy and seem completely unaffected. There are only sixteen or seventeen baby fish in a 20 gallon tank. How much fouling could possibly be happening?

Should I be worried?

Should I be doing something?

[pamsreef]

Congrats! They're adorable! Wow it seemed like they grew up fast. At least to me. Ha! Ha!

Pam

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by kmleah
Ya, disposable ones...:cool:

Seriously, though, despite doubling the tank volume with ammonia free water, addition of a, by now!, seasoned sponge filter, 15 pounds of 2 year cured live rock from my display in a sump under the tank, and twice a day scraping and siphoning the tank bottom, total ammonia is still 3 mg/L!!! pH is 7.9 right now, so I'm a little worried,



But the fish are growing like crazy and seem completely unaffected. There are only sixteen or seventeen baby fish in a 20 gallon tank. How much fouling could possibly be happening?

Should I be worried?

Should I be doing something?

Correction, 1.5 mg/L ammonia at pH 7.8.

That's about 57 ng/L free non ionized ammonia, so I guess that is not a whole lot. I would rather it was 0.

[JustFin]

Originally posted by kmleah
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462Day_22_twins226.jpg

aww, could they be any cuter!

I'm mystified that with detectable ammonia you haven't had any problems, either these little guys are really tough or ammonia isn't as harmful as I've always believed

very interesting stuff, keep the updates coming! :)

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by JustFin
I'm mystified that with detectable ammonia you haven't had any problems, either these little guys are really tough or ammonia isn't as harmful as I've always believed



Me, too. Mystified, I mean. I don't understand why the live rock isn't clearing the ammonia. I thought it would be 0 by now. The only thing I can think is that clownfish are pretty hardy when it comes to ammonia in general, and I occasionally use amquel, but not in any systematic way, and probaby I underdose. I don't want to harm the babies.

Thanks for your interest and the nice comment on the pix.

[Kathy55g]

here's a link to more pix:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5790326#post5790326

fun with reflections!

[Kathy55g]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462dancing_clownfish_babies.jpg

[JustFin]

any updates? how are the little ones doing?

[Kathy55g]

They are doing great! I did lose one to an overflow accident, but the rest are eating and growing as I think they should.

I have 15 now.

I am getting ready to build a table to house 4 20 gallon tanks over a central sump to have an integrated grow-out system.

Seems like eggs should be happening any minute now. I'll have to check with Brad.

Cheers,
Kathy

[paintbfreak1325]

man this has been a fun thread to read through. didnt catch it soon enough to watch from the beginning:) Congrats on hatching all these

[Conceyted]

do you plan on selling these? if so put us down for a pair of them please

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by paintbfreak1325
man this has been a fun thread to read through. didnt catch it soon enough to watch from the beginning:) Congrats on hatching all these

THANKS!

[Kathy55g]

Originally posted by Conceyted
do you plan on selling these? if so put us down for a pair of them please

I see you are from New Orleans. I am deeply sorry about what happened to your city. If you are in St. Louis or thereabouts, let me know and I'll put you on the list, but I don't plan to ship them. I have enough takers here, and the local fish store owner says she'll buy any I can bring in the door.

[Kathy55g]

Big news! The parents have spawned again. Gotta get that system up pronto!

[Atticus]

As for the ammonia are you running a DI cartridge on your Ro set up? If so then Ammonia should be undetectable. If not then your city water probably has high Chloramine content. Chloramnies are chlorine with an ammonia attatched to them to make city water cleaner further down the length of the pipes. Call you water provider to see what levels they are getting for chloramines and ammonia. With that information it is possible to structure a RO unit that will remove the ammonia. It usually takes a double carbon stage with one carbon being the chlorine guzzler type.

[Kathy55g]

Thanks Atticus,
I think we do have chloramine. In fact we called the municipal water folks to confirm that they add ammonia.

I have do have a double carbon pre-RO set up. But I have a mixed bed DI after the RO. I have since found out that mixed bed DI's don't remove ammonia, probably because it does not lower the pH sufficiently to ionize it. A two stage DI with one of the stages designed to remove ammonia is what I need and I have ordered. Should be in soon.

[Kathy55g]

It's been a while since I posted here.
The two stage DI is working beautifully, and the live rock in my sump under the baby fish finally kicked in and the ammonia alert badge is as yellow as I have ever seen it.

The week 7 juvenile fish are growing very well, are about 1/2 to 3/4 inch nose to tail tip. About half of them have a black band on their tails, all have the 3 white bands, with only one fish with a possible misbar where the band does not connect at the belly. They are quite active and appear healthy except for one thing. They swim in contact with the back wall of the tank, they like to hide behind the overflow (CPR second hand, I had it, so why not use it).

My husband commented that they are all swimming sideways (he exaggerates, but many are swimming sideways) and wondered if they are sick... I don't think they are sick, but perhaps they are hosted by the back wall of the tank, and feel more secure swimming next to it all the time.

As I mentioned, they all are active and eating and growing, so if they were sick, I would think they would be dead by now. When they come away from the wall, they swim normally.

Should I be concerned?

[Kathy55g]

bmp

[Warnberg]

Personally I wouldn't worry about the swimming sideways, when I first got my clowns (juviniles) they would swim the entire length of the tank sideways.... not sure why, maybe it gave them a better view of the bottom....

[spk]

Kathy,

Have you posted in the Anemones & ClownFishes (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=36) yet. You may get a quicker response?

Just thought I would ask. Sorry if you have already done so.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

I haven't done that, but I will. Thanks, K

[Spiffyguy]

Tagging along ;)

[shred5]

Originally posted by Spiffyguy
Tagging along ;)

Hey Spiffyguy.. Just so you know all you have to do is hit subscribe to this thread button at the bottom of the page, you dont have to type tagging along...

Dave

[Spiffyguy]

yeah I know. I just got on the list for a pair of these guys when they are ready.

[Kathy55g]

Just saw the "thread of the month" videos of clownfish juveniles. Mine act the same way, so I think they are all good!

[Kathy55g]

I didn't pick up eggs last time because the parents did not take care of the nest and the eggs got eaten.

Should be spawning again any day now.
I am almost ready for them.

[spk]

Kathy,

You are so lucky. I want some too now :(. Good luck. How is the system doing?

Steve

[mako56]

Hi me again. My clowns are still laying eggs every other week and I am just about ready to try to raise the babies I was just wondering what you do to collect the eggs? Mine always lay the eggs on the rock that the anemone is attached to.

[Kathy55g]

I am lucky that my friend's clownfish lay eggs on a removable tile.
You will have to devise a fry snagger, or otherwise gently siphone out the larvae.

There are some designs on other threads in this forum. Perhaps you could do a search, or the Wilkerson Clownfishes book has a drawing and description.

[spk]

Mako56,

Good luck with the fry. If you make the "fry snagger", please can you snap some pics during the process and post.

Thanks

Steve

[mako56]

I did the search thing and got some good ideas would really like to get them on the tile but what ever if I don't I will try scooping them out just had a batch hatch so I will have to wait for the next ones. Thanks for the luck.

[jwreffner]

If you are looking for info on using the V8 cuture method check out "Breeding the Orchid Dottyback" book from Martin Moe Jr. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0939960095/103-0416404-6079817?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance
I just read it...interesting to say the least on the V8/yeast cultures. Sounds feasible...

[Kathy55g]

I tried the V8 method and I think it killed my rots.
Best so far in my experience is live fresh nanno

I am trying algae paste right now, but since the weather has changed, the rots are growing more slowly, and I don't know yet if it is because of the diet or the temperature.

More later.

[Kathy55g]

It has been a long time since I've had the time to mess around with pictures, so here goes:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462fish241.jpg
Week 7

[Kathy55g]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462fish294.jpg
Week 10

[Kathy55g]

more week 10:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462fish297.jpg

[Kathy55g]

One saturday night they decided to have a square dance. Here's the caller and some of the dancers:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462caller2.jpg

[Kathy55g]

It is hard to capture fish dances in a photo, but I tried:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462square2.jpg


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462star52.jpg

[Kathy55g]

one more:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462d95good.jpg

[mako56]

How many do you have left? I tried the first time already but the eggs had already hatched before I even looked and I wound up only catching six, none made it. The next hatch looks like it will be on Saturday night so we will try again. I got this dry fish food from Mike Reed and he says it works so I plan on giving it a few more tries and see if it does. On the bag it says 100-200 microns.

[Kathy55g]

I have 15 juveniles left. Good luck with the dry food. I have heard that it is difficult to get many thru on dry alone. Hope you are lucky!

[DebsSisterFlo]

good luck to everyone, and mako56 if you're able to raise those babies I'd love to buy one or two! :D

[spk]

mako56,

Document your process here please, so that we can all learn and experience with you as you go.

Kathy,

Your clowns look magnificant. Fancy shipping one to the other side of the world?:D

How is your breeding setup going?

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Thanks, Steve!
As far as shipping goes, the demand in my town is high enough that I don't think I will have have to ship anywhere, and I love 'em too much to risk a long air flight, even for you...good friend that you have been to me.

How is your set up going? how are your new fish?
Cheers,
Kathy

[mako56]

No problem Jess. I wonder if you could have two from the same brood?

Will do Steve I will get it sooner or later they lay eggs every two or three weeks so if I keep trying different things it should work.

And Kathy ya I will give it a try or two. I already got some jugs to do the rots thing but I never did that either so I will need to figure out how that works too. Thanks for the luck.

[SEA YOU LATER]

kmleah, you have some great looking babies and I really enjoyed following the thread, Thanks, Mike

[SEA YOU LATER]

Good luck to you mako56.

[Kathy55g]

Hey Mike, thanks for the nice words and I'm glad you enjoyed the reading. I've had fun with it, too.

Cheers,
Kathy

[SEA YOU LATER]

Your welcome kmleah. When's the next hatch due?

[Kathy55g]

I am expecting an email from Brad any day now, and I'm really excited! It has been a long time since I have had eggs and larvae in the house, and I think I'm ready to try it again. In a couple of months I will have to lay off raising fishes because we are planning a trip to Italy for 9 days, so this may be my last chance before spring.

[SEA YOU LATER]

I'll go ahead and wish you luck and I'll follow your post when you get the eggs. Mike

[spk]

Kathy,

You are coming to Italy. Cool. Cannot wait for the next set of posts from you.

Thanks

Steve

[mako56]

Hey Kathy just wanted to ask before I barge in any more on your post if its ok to post my stuff here or would you rather have me start another one?

[Kathy55g]

I don't mind at all if you want to add to this thread. However, you may wish to start your own thread so it will draw more attention to your posts.

It's all the same to me. I am always here.

Cheers,
Kathy

[mako56]

Thanks, mostly it seems my threads get ignored :rolleye1: I think I will get more input here.

[Kathy55g]

I am shocked to hear that!

[mako56]

Well they hatched last night. I really need to get them to lay eggs on some kind of tile. I worked or played for about four hours and only got a couple dozen. Heres a pic of the eggs just before they hatched.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/mako56/JustBeforeHatching2.jpg

Heres one of one of the hatchlings.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/mako56/JustHatched.jpg

[SEA YOU LATER]

Great pictures Mike. Look forward to seeing more, keep us posted. Thanks Mike L

[Kathy55g]

Oh Man! those are awesome pictures! I really think this deserves its own thread. I am sure it will be seen and responded to. I have been pm'd by someone else who will help as well as I will to keep up the interest, but I am sure you will not need the help.

Keep posting pix like that, and you will have followers for sure.

[DebsSisterFlo]

Mike... that is about the neatest picture I've ever seen. I'm going to have to check out your camera when I'm over checking out your tank! Someday... probably after the first of the year we'll get together, hubby should be in the power plant by then?
So, the baby in the pic, is that one mine? :D

[shred5]

Hey nice pics Mike..

What kind of camera did you use?

Dave

[SEA YOU LATER]

I follow for sure. Mike you and Kathy have my full attention.

[mako56]

Thanks allot guys and gals, the pics are kinda cool. After the first day it looks like about half have died bummer but I guess for me this is really an experiment. :sad1:

A long way to go to get results like you Kathy.

Sure Jess you can have that one wish him luck.

Dave I just got a new toy early Christmas present its a Canon 20-D with a 100mm macro lens. Now all I got to do is learn how to use it.:hmm5:

[DebsSisterFlo]

I wish you and the little fishie the best of luck... man am I drooling over your camera! You lucky duck! :D

[SEA YOU LATER]

Keep it up mako you'll get it:hmm5:

[spk]

Mike,

That is so neat. Those pics are great.

Come on this deserves its onw thread, so that we can wacth your progress.

Start a new thread and tell us about everything that you have done. From setup, feeding right through to hatch and then keep the posts and pics coming.

I love the camera too. You are one lucky chappie there.

Excellent photos.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Don't be so humble! Start your own thread, or folks will think those awesome pictures are of my fish. You can do it!

[SEA YOU LATER]

I also say start your own thread, it'll be cool!!!!!!

[spk]

Go for it we will all join you on your journeys.

[mako56]

LOL hey its no big deal to me just trying to make this work is all. But I will start one. Thanks for all the support and I really don't want to rain on Kathys parade anyways.

[Kathy55g]

Not a problem, all is sunny here! But as I said, you deserve your own thread!
Cheers and good luck,
Kathy

[mako56]

Very sunny here Kathy YOU DID IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kathy55g]

bump for a friend

[Kathy55g]

Hey you all,
It's my aniversary! I started this thread a year ago with nothing but rotifers and phytoplankton, and now I have a system with 7-800 fish! Still haven't paid the bills, but perhaps soon.

I'm feeling pretty good about the progress made. Now if my broodstock will only spawn again...

[spk]

Kathy,

Happy aniversary.

It is very difficult to think that I started following this thread a year ago. Now look I have the system and no eggs again.

Oh well, patience.......

Steve

[Kathy55g]

You will get there, Steve!