So how efficient can you grow SPS's in a greenhouse???

[zanemoseley]

So i've been reading tonight on greenhouses. A small/med one like 8'X10' about $2000 with 10mm polycarbonate sides could have a tank on each side with plenty of room inside for working but I was wondering if it was cost efficient as opposed to doing it in your garage and just paying for the lighting.

How easy is it to keep the temperature stable in such a house? I assume when dealing with picky SPS's I'd have to either use a chiller or an A/C unit for the house to keep it cool on the really hot TN days in August /Sept. I don't think keeping it warm in the winter would be too bad as we only get down to about 10 for a bit in winter.

So I'm wondering if using a greenhouse is worth saving the expense of 6-8 MH bulbs that would be required for two 8'X2' sps tanks.

We pay $.064 per KH, so say 8 250w DE bulbs 10 hrs a day times 356 days a year= $467 a year for lighting plus about $600 a year for bulbs. Then you have the initial cost for say 8 basic PFO pendants = $774 plus the ballasts =$900

So the total cost for just lighting for the first year including startup lighting costs is $2741.

So that alone would pay for the greenhouse.

[hamburglar]

I have a fairly new greenhouse, and I am probably close to your climate.

Go with as much water volume as possible. My system has pretty harsh temp shifts because there is only a couple hundred gallons. Look into geothermal cooling if possible. Fans help also.

I have not had good results with SPS yet, but I am having trouble keeping my water perm's right, and the system is still new. Softies are doing just as good as in my indoor systems. Hopefully I will know more about sps soon.

[Buckeye ME]

I would think the natural lighting in the winter would need supplemented with MH's. What is the furthest north natural reef in the world? I don't think of real reefs being much further north than Florida.

[davem511]

I'm guessing no matter where you are, natural sunlight is going to be stronger than halides.... even in winter. I would also suspect that the world's reef location limitations are more about water temperature than light. I know Anthony Calfo has a very successful greenhouse operation in Pittsburg PA and has no supplemental lighting. He has a book with a ton of information about setting up a greenhouse for coral fragging.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0971637105/qid=1126901604/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6125095-0874227?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[zanemoseley]

Well I just ordered the book.

[Buckeye ME]

Interesting, I'm surprised more people (businesses) don't do this then, I have never heard of it.

[ALTI]

if u ever go to a coral wholesaler and see how much stock they move on a weekly basis u will realize how much easier it is to order as many corals as you need rather than waiting for them to grow at a snails pace. its much easier to order domino's pizza than make your own from scratch.

[zanemoseley]

But where's the satisfaction in buying wild corals. I will probably have to hunt down some prize colonies to start the business. I also plan to supplement my frags with ORA stuff and some mariculture. I really don't wanna do wilds though. First off they're normally larger so more care must be taken in shipping, then they lose their color quite often which leads to unhappy customers and most importantly they take from wild reefs.

[coralfarm'n]

I have a small greenhouse in NC.(about 1200 gallons)
The few sps I have tested in it, show awesome growth.
I took a tiny 3/4" frag of a "wild" blue acro from Solomon Island about 3 weeks ago, it is already plating and growing.
I also have some Monti caps that grow like mad weeds.

I am expanding into another greenhouse soon, I hope ;)

[RicksReefs]

dick perrin has been growing all sorts of corals for 20-30 years
in a greenhouse in michigan. NC should be a snap.. ;) :D

i run 3000 watts of lighting in my garage, that along with the
attendant pumps, chiller, etc. averages an added $250 to the
power bill.

[zanemoseley]

Yeah that $250 from utilities a month you pay mostly for lighting would pay for a greenhouse in no time. You'd have to sell quite a bit of corals to pay for the $250 a month plus other expenses.

[RicksReefs]

i'm gettin' there :)
my current situation prohibits a GH, but first chance i get,
one's going up...:D

[coralfarm'n]

I have plenty of room for as many greenhouses as needed, and even have 2 30x90 ft greenhouses that need to be put up, but not for coralfarm'n. They will be for agriculture. I got them from a old local farmer dirt cheap.
I actualy decided instead, to make my own commercial frame with a commercial frame bender I bought awhile back. It bends the greenhouse hoops 20ft wide from 3 pieces of 1 3/8 " x 10.5 ft chain link fence top rail, I get from lowes. I can also bend 16ft wide frames, with the frame bender.
I got the first hoop up for the 20x 30 ft coral greenhouse today, mabey this thread helped motivate me a little :)

I am taking my time outlining my commercial coral farm plan, I would like to get the commercial coral farm constructed and running by mid march 2006, atleast, that way I dont have to heat the new greenhouse for the first few months thru this winter, when the system will just be establishing, the new system can get established thru spring instead.

Something any commercial greenhouse coral farmer should consider is the heating bill imo,since I can not determine this except through experiance I scaled my first commercial greenhouse down in size, from my dream greenhouse.

I also invested in a 115,000 btu super efficent wood fired boiler to run either a titanium boiler exchanger or a fan driven radiator type heater...Kinda like in your car. I also have a free to cheap supply of wood. There will be a external 100,000btu LP gas heater for back up.

Also one should consider a generator.

[zanemoseley]

I thought heating a greenhouse wasn't a big deal. I thought on sunny days it pretty much heated itself. Also I was looking at a polycarb 8' X 13' with I think 10mm sides and it has an r value of 3.0 which is about the same as a brick wall if I remember right, seems it should be very efficient on keeping heat in.

[coralfarm'n]

One guy here was spending over $1000 per month last year in PA, to heat.
The twin wall polycarbonate is nice, a local greenhouse supplier here sells the stuff, but the light transmission is not as good as a double layer of poly inflated imo, the inflated poly insulation factor is almost the same as the twin wall, but I'd have to find the link to show you the differant R values of polycarb, glass, inflated poly etc.
The higher inital investment of the twin wall is alot higher and it may take years to recoupe over the double poly inflated investment, if you are talking about a commercial size greenhouse.
I have a polycarbonate that is single wall on my current greenhouse.
If you don't have a shoe string budjet, by all means invest in the best, but I'll stick with the old faithful double layer inflated poly on my next greenhouse.
The twin wall poly carbonate, local to me is like $175(or more) for a 6 ft wide by 15ft long sheet. So just for the top of a 20 x 30 quonset greenhouse, it is about $175 x 8 plus whatever the end walls consume on top of that.
I don't see the pay off, when enough poly for a double layer inflated is the cost of about 1 sheet of twin wall poly carb , and you get about the same R factor.

If you are building a small, not for profit greenhouse, then poly carb is great imo

[hamburglar]

Buckeye ME,

One thing to remember about greenhouse corals. We have very shallow tanks. For example, most of my corals only have about 4-6 inches of water over them. There is not much light lost due to water.

[lil_fishey]

man a green house would get mighty cold in the winter up here in iowa but it would be so cool to have one lol

[evinny101]

Watch your temp!

[BobCReef]

Just picking up on this thread. I have commercial greenhouses for agriculture. Now the houses are from 20' to 28' wide and 100' long but in jan & feb i'll burn 700 to 800 gals of fuel every 2 weeks keeping three of them at 64 degrees nights. Daytime you have the opisite problem, you will likely need to cool them with fans. Also in the summer they can climb to 100 degrees or better so be prepared to cool them. Although i have never tried corals in them i don't see how they would change things

bob

[ALTI]

hi bob,
u have any extra room in those greenhouses to rent? :)

im actually thinking about putting one up. u have any good local sources or know of anyone selling a used one?

[Gerde]

Bob, in your agro green houses, do you keep any large containers of water in your greenhouse to help with temp? I'm talking like 10 or 15 55 gal drums? Anthony Calfo speaks about the ability of water to change temp slowly, many growers use that strategy. Do you?

[BobCReef]

I know of no growers taking up growing space for water drums. You have to remember its all about how well you utilize the space you have. Alot of growers have gone to hot water embedded in the concrete floor. This sems to work the best for the plants as they like warm roots.
I do from time to time see used houses for sale. A smaller local grower here is taking some down, i bought one for my brother in law from him. 17x96
You would not want coral in the same houses as the plants because of the pesticides we use.

bob

[Steven Pro]

Bob,

Are there any magazines or books on greenhouses that you could recommend to someone wanting to setup a greenhouse for corals?

[ALTI]

how much did u get it for, if u dont mind me asking?

[Gerde]

Bob the reason I ask is due to the fact that water is very slow to change temp (especially large bodies) and can be a buffer for your heating/cooling needs. I know some growers put water filled barrels under their benches for this purpose.

[BobCReef]

Alti - $700

Steve are you loking for supply catalog or "how to"?
For supplies Griffin Greenhouse supply is probabley the largest in this area. I may have an old catalog around. On how to i'd have to ck some out.

Gerde - I can only say i know of no one in this area doing that at a comercial level. I'm not saying i don't understand the principle. But i can tell you that when its cold outside the temp inside drops like a brick when the sun goes down.
I would also recommend that you have some type of alarm system for when the heater fails. Without it you could lose it all by morning

bob

[Steven Pro]

I have gotten catalogs from Atlas and XSSmith, but I am looking for more of a how to. I am concerned because I don't know much of anything regarding a greenhouse.

For example, if I didn't know about reef aquariums and my only education was getting a Drs. Foster & Smith catalog, I would be woefully unprepared. The actual greenhouse construction seems relatively straight forward, but I have a nagging feeling I am missing something. Perhaps I am making it more difficult than it need be, but experience has taught me that any profession/endeavor has tricks of the trade to it.

[jay24k]

A guy I know has a mini greenhouse with a surge tank. Really neat but in reality, it is not faster then your tank. It's hooked up to a chiller and uses an acrylic plexi roof to stop water from getting in. The pump costs the most but still a neat idea.

[BobCReef]

Well the old stand by for greenhouse how to is the Ball Red Book. Now this is fairley old but it should cover your basics. Just remember this was written for the Horticulture industry. Anthony's book may have alot more coral farming information

bob

[samtheman]

Take a look at passive solar greenhouses. With the correct ratio of heat storage(water) you can get by with little or no heat. The water for heat storage must be able to change temp. by 10-15 degrees to be useful. You culture water will add little as you want to keep its temp stable.
You can get by with two gallons / sq ft. in cool climates and need about 5 gal/sq ft. in cold climmats. THis is usually accomplished with a "water wall". If you combine passive solar with geothermal cooling you can get by without using much energy, except for supplemental light in the winter. I am planning one for the 45th parrallel.

[Steven Pro]

Does anyone know how the ground should be prepared in a greenhouse? I am plannning on using a gravel bed for the floor, but how deep should it be to act as an additional heat sink? Should under the gravel be lined with plastic? Styrofoam? If it matters, I am planning on a gothic style frame and double layered plastic sheeting for the glazing.

[redox]

pour concrete, but dont forget floor drains:rolleyes:

[panic]

I have concrete floors that drop enough pitch to drain into a trough that runs the length of the greenhouse. The trough ends in a single 4" drain with a trap, and straight to the sewer. Water changes right on the floor makes it a snap. I am using the summer as a temperature study before I add corals, but I think I will need a beefy chiller. Water should get up to 85 after a few 100 degree days.

[redox]

I dont use a chiller ,have installed geo loop is seems to work, and a fan to pull out the heat ,sps are really luvin it.I cant remember the last time I had a system actually do what it is supposed to. Growth rates are crazy, frags lay down new tissue fast and older larger colonies grow out to frag stage really fast. I am gonna have to make a delivery to my lfs really soon as I am running out of room

[hamburglar]

Redox, to heck with that LFS.....lets put it on EBay!

[redox]

get that sight up and running and well do just that !!!!!

[redox]

well lets here it is anyone succesful in gh prop . My system is in its second year . I have learned alot in that time and really have found the secret to gh prop anyone else? anyone? growth rates are rapid now that the summer sun is around the bend. The light movers for sup 400s cant hurt either ,or the dual calcium reactors,or the rotifiers,or the two large rk2 protien fractionators,or the ozone, or the geo cooling, or the wave2k devices cant hurt either . Looking back the two main things I did to provke a response was the addition of the w2k's and the rots

[Stoney Mahony]

Lets see some pics!

[redox]

got some pics in my gallery not sure how to download larger files(and before anyone tries to exsplain dont bother ) thanks anyway:confused:

[RedSonja]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7288061#post7288061 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by redox
well lets here it is anyone succesful in gh prop . My system is in its second year . I have learned alot in that time and really have found the secret to gh prop anyone else? anyone? growth rates are rapid now that the summer sun is around the bend. The light movers for sup 400s cant hurt either ,or the dual calcium reactors,or the rotifiers,or the two large rk2 protien fractionators,or the ozone, or the geo cooling, or the wave2k devices cant hurt either . Looking back the two main things I did to provke a response was the addition of the w2k's and the rots

redox I'm looking to use geothermal as well when I get to the stage of building a greenhouse. I'm wondering how far I'd have to bury it, etc. Please pm me if you'd be willing to answer a question or two on the subject.

Thanks!

-Sonja

[Cades]

I tried a greenhouse in Maine for part of a Master's thesis. It was a temperature nightmare! The winters were actually ok, but in the summer on warm days (85-90 degrees F air temperature) I had a very hard time maintaining an acceptable water temperature and actually had a bleaching occur resulting in a severe set back to my project. I was using a ~500 gallon system. So, I would suggest that you go as big as you can to maintain a stable temperature. Additionally, make sure you have shading screen on hand if you plan on having any corals that occur deeper than a couple of meters; a shallow pool in a greenhouse is a very bright place to be. In the end, I had to use chillers to maintain my water temp below 83. After finding my greenhouse with several panels missing from a windstorm I decided to move the project inside. Don’t forget about the “greenhouse effect”, even with all the roof vents, louver windows, and the large front door open with a large fan blowing for circulation, it is always warmer in the greenhouse than it is outside. Next time I try natural sunlight, I’m going to use a solartube or a solar collector and fiber-optic. Anyway, good luck!

[redox]

I guess then I hold the secret to keeping temps right in a gh, this beeing my second year of opps says so... well for now my secrets stay with me after all they cost my lots of money to learn, but well worth it. My gh has be through a cat 2 hurricane with no problems so I am not so woried about the wind. As for to much sun I have a white 30% sun shade I use when the summer sun returns, heat is not an issue for me

[samtheman]

You are soooo smart!

[redox]

from the sound of it it seems that no one wants to talk about success they are having in a gh please dont mock mine:mixed: :rollface: :rollface: :p

[samtheman]

How could I mock you. There is no evidence that you even raise corals in a greenhouse, let alone know any "secrets". It seems you are playing games.

[redox]

who are you that I need to prove anythingto you ? look in my gallery and ...... well you aint worth the trouble,I see all the pics of your success, nice gallery pics dude how long did it take you to grow that?:p you are the man, yea hello. keep up the good work man

[masterswimmer]

redox, congratulations for being successful.
Did you post on this thread to brag? Or, maybe to be helpful in the community sense that RC is supposed to endorse?
If you have some positive and constructive comments I'm sure there are quite a few people who would value your input.

[redox]

hey I dont have to brag I am just proud of what I have done in the over twenty years of reefkeeping. If someone wants advice alls thay have to do is ask. I dont try to belittle anyone but dont talk trash to me because I dont need the agrivation ,my experience is what it is take it or leave it . why is it that some people cant seem to keep their crappy comments to theirselves

[masterswimmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7351686#post7351686 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by redox
I guess then I hold the secret to keeping temps right in a gh, this beeing my second year of opps says so... well for now my secrets stay with me after all they cost my lots of money to learn, but well worth it.


People did ask. Your response above tells the world you're not showing pride, just bragging.

[redox]

Im sure my pm responses to those people who asked are none of your bussiness:D besides its all based on so many variables and there is not enough time in the day to talk about all of them,what works for me might not work for others, do you have anything else to add that might relate to the thread? sps in gh? anything useful? or are you just trying to start waves, dont need any my wave devices do that for me

[masterswimmer]

I read the thread because I had an interest in learning from people who've been successful. Arrogance and boorishness is not what I need to read about. For the most part, the majority of the members on RC are helpful and informative, not secretive self imposed braggarts.

[redox]

I hear ya, since I have a life im outa here:p

[Steven Pro]

Does anyone know of a site similar to ReefCentral, but for greenhouses?

[Carlos]

I am going to close this thread before someone will say something foolish.

This thread has reached and passed its useful life, therefore it is now closed.

Carlos