reef safe ich treatment emergency! [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

rberrie

09/22/2005, 08:10 PM

I was at MACNA in D.C. and I stopped by their booth. I received a couple of free samples for ich and cloudy eye. When I returned home to my VerySickFish, I started dosing them as directed.

It has been four days since then and I must say that the fish are looking much better. They are moving better and eating. In fact, my large Tusk fish which I thought for sure was a gonner, has revived and is doing much better. They are not cured yet, but they are hopefully on their way.

I am not endorsing this product yet, nut I am very excited by the preliminary results.

bertoni

09/22/2005, 08:20 PM

The description of their ich treatment on their web site talks only about the freshwater disease, Ichthyophthirius. Do they recommend it for saltwater, too, or is their web page a bit out of date?

raynist

09/22/2005, 09:09 PM

I have also had good luck by soaking flakes in Garlic Extreme.

Trickman2

09/23/2005, 10:57 AM

No sick fish huh? Any luck with this product yet?

jarhed

09/26/2005, 07:43 AM

Bump.

Any news?

Ah64av8tor

10/05/2005, 05:15 PM

Any results yet, I'm sure we all want to know!

goulding.c

10/05/2005, 08:33 PM

I used the reef safe stuff with no luck. But a big uv sterilizer slowly took it all away. Best add yet.

CG

twkenny

10/05/2005, 09:13 PM

What reef safe stuff are you referring to? The No Sick Fish stuff?

jmack

10/05/2005, 09:18 PM

I was told by my LFS that Seachem's metronidazole is all they use anymore. They said they have had great results and it's reef safe. It's seems to work for me too. It's in a powder form and you add so many spoonfuls every other day. You can also mix into their food.

jarhed

10/05/2005, 10:07 PM

Where do you get that jmack?

I ordered some NoSickFish medication. As soon as it arrives, I can try it out and I'll report the results. Course, I have no fish infected right now. They all died. Have four Chromis, a six-line, and a diamond Goby. None are showing any symptoms, but of course they could still be carriers. I want to make sure any ich is dead in the tank before I start QT'ing new fish.

Lost:
Three blue tangs,
three perculas
a Foxface
a Bicolor Angel
a Picasso Trigger
a Purple Psuedo

:mad:

jmack

10/05/2005, 10:13 PM

I got it from my LFS..however you can get it here too..

www.petsolutions.com

jarhed

10/05/2005, 10:23 PM

Thanks jmack,

Ordering some now.

I'll have this in reserve for use if the NoSickFish doesnt work. I'm pretty impressed by the crew at NSF. I hadnt received my order and emailed them. They called me yesterday and reshipped another package. He was very concerned that I hadnt gotten the medicine yet and wanted to make sure I got to treat my fish.

Seriously, nobody has ever called me after I emailed to ask when it shipped. Truly a class act and concerned about customer satisfaction.

mmoore0803

10/06/2005, 03:13 PM

I bought and treated my tank with NSF Ich treatment and evrything (in regards to fish) in my tank still ended up dying. Dosed as it said on the package and the first day it looked like it might work (Fish started looking better...fewer spots) but after day 1 treatment, it went downhill. I lost a white-faced powder brown, a juv. imperator, then 4 little oscellaris'...slow die off...All the inverts and corals in the tank are fine so the product doesn't seem to infect reef inhabitants...I sent NSF a letter of what happened and was told I had the strain that is difficult to get rid of (though I only know of 1 strain of marine ich). Ich came into my tank via LFS (got me once in my FW and now in my SW....no more $$$ for them) and now I'm looking into a UV purchase just to make sure all parasites are in fact dead (plus waiting 6 weeks b4 thinking of adding any fish)...just another of life's lessons (yeah yeah...a QT would have prevented this and yes I plan on QTing all new fish in the future)

Mike

ryfry

10/06/2005, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by goulding.c
I used the reef safe stuff with no luck. But a big uv sterilizer slowly took it all away. Best add yet.

CG

Goulding.c,

Are you talking about the nosickfish stuff? Where did you get it?

gina6one9

10/06/2005, 10:34 PM

WHAT DID YOU GUYS PAY FOR THE UV LIGHTS? I AM CURRENTLY USING RX-P (REEF SAFE ICH MED) IN A QT TANK ON MY BLUE HIPPO TANG, SEEMS TO BE WORKING. I REMOVED HER FROM MY CLOWNS CAUSE THEY SPAWNED LAST NIGHT. I WOULD LIKE TO GET A UV IF IT WORK TO KILL ANYTHING LET IN MY TANK.

jarhed

10/06/2005, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by ryfry
Goulding.c,

Are you talking about the nosickfish stuff? Where did you get it?

http://www.nosickfish.com/

vthondaboi

10/06/2005, 11:40 PM

My LFS tried some and it was useless. I tried doing a search a few months ago and NOTHING came up about NSF.

I just use garlic and Kick Ich and pray.

NSF

10/07/2005, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by vthondaboi
My LFS tried some and it was useless. I tried doing a search a few months ago and NOTHING came up about NSF.

I just use garlic and Kick Ich and pray.

Who is your LFS? We have never had a store use our products and tell us that they are useless!

They always continue to buy more.

No Sick Fish

jarhed

10/07/2005, 06:22 PM

Could it be that the LFS was trying to sell you something else?

CDGreenEyes

10/07/2005, 06:45 PM

This thread seemed like a great place to jump onto my quarantine soapbox. :cool:

This is all a moot point if you have a quarantine tank. Cryp is just too easy to cure with copper sulfate. It works every time, its tried and true and its fast. ... But it only works if there are no invertebrates present.

You can spend $50 on new medications that you hope might work and you can spend hundreds on a UV (which may not work) or you could set up a quarantine for $50 or less and use copper which will work virtually every time. The the quarantine tank is yours forever. Use it over and over. Future problems cost virtually nothing to solve.

If you quarantine ALL of your new fish for six weeks in your inexpensive quarantine tank prior to introduction into the display tank, you would not see these problems in the display tank and therefore not have to solve them.

Stepping down off soapbox.

kirkfrey

10/07/2005, 07:08 PM

Ever since I started feeding my fish with garlic soaked food I have NEVER had any Ick issues. I can't tell you why, only that it works for me.

lilbubba

10/07/2005, 07:09 PM

Well I'm using it right now. I bought a Purple tang and of course it came down with ICh pretty bad to so I ordered the stuff and after 3 days of treatment it looks great it says you have to treat for 7 days but I see no ILL effects so far with any of my corals either.

CDGreenEyes

10/07/2005, 07:18 PM

Kirk,

When something doesn't happen is not evidence for anything. There is no evidence that garlic does anything to prevent ich.

Steven Pro

10/08/2005, 05:48 AM

Steven Pro

10/08/2005, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by kirkfrey
Ever since I started feeding my fish with garlic soaked food I have NEVER had any Ick issues. I can't tell you why, only that it works for me. Surprisingly little has ben studied regarding garlic and fish disease,
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

Ah64av8tor

10/08/2005, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by CDGreenEyes
This thread seemed like a great place to jump onto my quarantine soapbox. :cool:

This is all a moot point if you have a quarantine tank. Cryp is just too easy to cure with copper sulfate. It works every time, its tried and true and its fast. ... But it only works if there are no invertebrates present.

You can spend $50 on new medications that you hope might work and you can spend hundreds on a UV (which may not work) or you could set up a quarantine for $50 or less and use copper which will work virtually every time. The the quarantine tank is yours forever. Use it over and over. Future problems cost virtually nothing to solve.

If you quarantine ALL of your new fish for six weeks in your inexpensive quarantine tank prior to introduction into the display tank, you would not see these problems in the display tank and therefore not have to solve them.

Stepping down off soapbox.

I do advocate that you have a quarantine tank, and that copper is most effective on Crypt. Now then that only works on a fish only tank.
I would never put an invert in a tank that has ever contained copper, nor would I add water from my LFS into my reef.
As we all know part of the life cycle of Crypt is found in the substrate and can be introduced through this substrate to our tanks. This requires a separate QT for fish and inverts.
Wouldnâ€™t it be great if there was a product that really was Reef safe and effective for those times when we have made a mistake and added our fish to soon from the QT or didnâ€™t leave enough time for all the crypt in the substrate of the main display to die off. Accidents do happen to the best of us.

Greg

kirkfrey

10/08/2005, 11:46 AM

when I have a fish that has something, and I feed it food soaked in garlic and the do NOTHING else and the ich disappears I'd say that is a reasonable indication that it helped.

Like I said, I can not tell you why but I know that if I have a fish that has Ich and I feed them garlic soaked food, it has ALWAYS cleared it up for me, YMMV. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything as I have no â€œproofâ€ or scientific explanation for why it may (or may not) work, other than what has worked for me. I quarantine all my fish for 25 days, most â€œcome down withâ€ Ich at some point. The above is now more than a treatment, its how I feed my fish now. I have not seen any issues that would cause me to stop using it as a regular part of my feeding.

Lilbubba, Iâ€™d do it longer then 7 days (as I said, I do it all the time now) as I think that the life cycle of Ich is something like 21 days. I donâ€™t use the branded stuff, just â€œgarlic juiceâ€ from the grocery store spice isle. Never had any ill effects.

lillibirdy

10/08/2005, 01:41 PM

I have a little Tang in my tank for two weeks now. Got ich, and I am treating with garlic, not sure if it is working yet or not, BUT, my other fish have been getting garlic for many months now, and so far no one else has gotten it...knocking on wood! Also, the Silly fish doesn't seem to want the cleaners to work on him. I see no flashing, and he eats and seems great, but looks like heck. How long does it usually take. I am feeding twice a day just for now, with the garlic soaked food.

jmack

10/08/2005, 03:38 PM

Metronidazole by Seachem worked wonders for me! And it's reef safe and easy to use.

CDGreenEyes

10/08/2005, 09:31 PM

I continue to be amazed by the apparent resistance to quarantine tanks.

Trickman2

10/08/2005, 09:51 PM

I understand the quarantine tank issue but once you got a full blown case in your main tank, Removing all the fish from a well established tank stresses everyone out and does not always give you the desired results. Quaratining New fish is a must and I think most of us must learn this the hard way.

Ah64av8tor

10/09/2005, 04:59 AM

Carl,

If you are going to quarantine, you have to quarantine everything.
What are your procedurs for setting up and running a QT for SPS? do you quarantine your snails and hermits?

Greg

Steven Pro

10/09/2005, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by Ah64av8tor
Carl,

If you are going to quarantine, you have to quarantine everything.
What are your procedurs for setting up and running a QT for SPS? do you quarantine your snails and hermits?

Greg I quarantine everything. See here, http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

Ah64av8tor

10/09/2005, 06:32 PM

Steven,

Originally posted by Ah64av8tor
I do advocate that you have a quarantine tank, and that copper is most effective on Crypt. Now then that only works on a fish only tank.
I would never put an invert in a tank that has ever contained copper, nor would I add water from my LFS into my reef.
As we all know part of the life cycle of Crypt is found in the substrate and can be introduced through this substrate to our tanks. This requires a separate QT for fish and inverts.
Wouldnâ€™t it be great if there was a product that really was Reef safe and effective for those times when we have made a mistake and added our fish to soon from the QT or didnâ€™t leave enough time for all the crypt in the substrate of the main display to die off. Accidents do happen to the best of us.

Greg

Thanks for the link it was nice to revisit an old read, the only thing you didnt mention were any precautions switching from using a tank that had been used with medications ie..copper for fish treatment then using it for inverts. For me it this not a problem I have a dozen 20 gal tanks and one that is only used for fish treatment. What would you sugest for the reefer on a budget?

Greg

Lager

10/09/2005, 07:27 PM

There is only one product that I have seen to work 100% ..Its called Chem -Marin, Stop Parasite.. Its totally reef safe, but has some nasty side effects.. meaning a hair Algae explosion from heck.. But it does work !!! Dosent stress you fish like Copper does.. Copper is a hit and miss cure also..The reccomended dose by the bottle is too low,, get a Copper test kit and contact the copper manfactor as to the reccomended dosage..Follow the test kit,, not the reccomended dosage on the Bottle.. Copper manufactor told me,, we dose low, because we know people cant dose correctly..Meaning,, at the recommended dosage on the bottle,, wont cure nothing,, but will cause damage to your fish.. Garlic?? What a joke,, Its supposed to incease your own fishes natural resistance to the pest.. I give that one a, maybe.. But the irratant is still there,, Give it a few weeks, I bet you will see a new outbreak.. Thats the natural cycle of ICK.. Quarnteen is great IF you do it from the start with every fish on a virgin reef/fish tank.. But if your fish/reef tank has ICK?? You need to either treat the entire tank with the proper chemical. Or if you choose to remove all the fish and quarnteen and treat,, be perpared to keep them in quarnteen for 2 months..Those that doubt me,, read up about the ICK parasite and the hibernation period thats just waiting for for your fish to be introduced.. Then maybe, you be motivated to set up quarnteen tanks for every fish.. No matter what..

samsfishnchips

10/09/2005, 07:38 PM

guys what you think about these,

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=580802&highlight=ich

haven't have any issues with itch but getting new fish soon, hope I don' have to use it,

ginger in the food,

sam

BillyFSU

10/09/2005, 07:50 PM

I would normally QT any livesand from the LFS before adding it to my tank, but what about the bagged livesand from CaribSea? Is it safe to assume its probably been bagged for at least a few weeks?

Lager

10/09/2005, 07:57 PM

Billy,,Ive never heard or seen a problem with the sand.. Ive used it myself,, its expensive,, I wouldnt buy it again.. but,, its very effective and safe..

Steven Pro

10/10/2005, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Ah64av8tor
Steven,

Thanks for the link it was nice to revisit an old read, the only thing you didnt mention were any precautions switching from using a tank that had been used with medications ie..copper for fish treatment then using it for inverts. For me it this not a problem I have a dozen 20 gal tanks and one that is only used for fish treatment. What would you sugest for the reefer on a budget?

Greg I only use one tank for everything. People over react to copper. For instance, if I do use copper on a fish, the treatment lasts for two weeks. After which, I don't immediately remove the fish. That specimen stays in quarantine for an additional month to make sure the treatment was effective, put on weight, get used to me and the food I use, etc. During that time, I perform weekly water changes and use activated carbon. My quarantine tank has nothing but inert materials in it, nothing to absorb (and later release) the copper. By the time the fish comes out, all the copper is gone. And if that was not enough, I usually do a 100% water change before introducing anything new.

skabimini

10/10/2005, 06:29 AM

I hate ich!!!!

toonces

10/10/2005, 06:47 AM

steven,
the problem with using a quarantine tank is that you really have to be dilligent about using it properly, you need a certain amount of resources to use one, and if you don't do everything exactly right, you sort of defeat the whole purpose of using it.

in my own example, i have two 10 gallon tanks set up as quarantine tanks. i quarantined my flame angel before i put him in. but (always a but), i bought a tiger shrimp and goby pair, and i just didn't trust putting a shrimp in a bare (no sand) qt tank for a month. plus, the goby looked pretty stressed. so, yep, they went straight into the main tank.

so, the problem is that if any of these fish or inverts had any ich whatsoever in their mucous or gills or anything, i've just defeated the whole purpose of using a qt tank at all.

and what about a clean up crew? how do i sustain 40 crabs and snails in a 10 gal tank for a month?

i was totally on board with the whole quarantine tank until i tried to implement it. then i realized that it is almost easier to take my chances with ich in the main tank and tackle it with good food and water quality than to go the qt route and try to keep delicate animals alive in what is essentially a 70's era nano.

Steven Pro

10/10/2005, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by toonces
steven,
the problem with using a quarantine tank is that you really have to be dilligent about using it properly, you need a certain amount of resources to use one, and if you don't do everything exactly right, you sort of defeat the whole purpose of using it.

in my own example, i have two 10 gallon tanks set up as quarantine tanks. i quarantined my flame angel before i put him in. but (always a but), i bought a tiger shrimp and goby pair, and i just didn't trust putting a shrimp in a bare (no sand) qt tank for a month. plus, the goby looked pretty stressed. so, yep, they went straight into the main tank.

so, the problem is that if any of these fish or inverts had any ich whatsoever in their mucous or gills or anything, i've just defeated the whole purpose of using a qt tank at all.

and what about a clean up crew? how do i sustain 40 crabs and snails in a 10 gal tank for a month?

i was totally on board with the whole quarantine tank until i tried to implement it. then i realized that it is almost easier to take my chances with ich in the main tank and tackle it with good food and water quality than to go the qt route and try to keep delicate animals alive in what is essentially a 70's era nano. That is, of course, your choice, but it is certainly not impossible to quarantine everything. I can't think of a single thing that can currently be kept alive indefinitely in captivity that can't be quarantined in a bare bottom tank for one to two months.

As for the clean up crew, I don't like utilizing crabs because they are opportunistic omnivores, but that makes them extremely easy to QT. They will eat anythig offered. For snails, I use nori.

samsfishnchips

10/10/2005, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by StevenPro
That is, of course, your choice, but it is certainly not impossible to quarantine everything. I can't think of a single thing that can currently be kept alive indefinitely in captivity that can't be quarantined in a bare bottom tank for one to two months.

As for the clean up crew, I don't like utilizing crabs because they are opportunistic omnivores, but that makes them extremely easy to QT. They will eat anythig offered. For snails, I use nori.

quarrantine is in theory a good method, but as all things have its dark side :D

have a friend that quarrantine all his fish, one day some of his fish got itch and we couldn't find the source, and were are talking about no additions for over 6months to 1 yrs,

oh, well, good luck to all,

sam

Trickman2

10/10/2005, 09:00 AM

Steven What do you think of Metronidazole? Some people say it is reef safe and clears up Ick. Any truth to that?

Steven Pro

10/10/2005, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Trickman2
Steven What do you think of Metronidazole? Some people say it is reef safe and clears up Ick. Any truth to that? I talk a little bit about it in part two of my Ich articles:

Treatment Options for Marine Ich, part 1 (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php)
Treatment Options for Marine Ich, part 2 (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php)

Suffice to say, some people have said they had 'success' with it, for others it didn't seem to help (and this could be said of just about any alleged 'reef-safe' treatment).

CDGreenEyes

10/11/2005, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Trickman2
Steven What do you think of Metronidazole? Some people say it is reef safe and clears up Ick. Any truth to that?

If I may jump back in here ... Man, you leave for a day ...

:)

I have not yet tried Metronidazole for SW ich but recall it is an antibiotic primarily designed for anaerobic bacteria. I have wondered if its observed effect among some who use it for treating cryp are simply seeing the fishes natural immunity kick in after the flagyl has eliminated some secondary bacterial infection? I may have to look into that.

I have the same procedure as Steven. I quarantine everything. No exceptions. I agree that there is nothing that I am able to keep captively that I cannot keep in a QT for a few months. I also agree that copper is not an issue because there is nothing in my QT to absorb it. When the tank is emptied, the copper is gone.

I don't think this has been brought up yet but I have seen several people write about UV with regard to cryp in other threads. I have this on my mind because I saw some pretty expensive UVs at MACNA last month.

I have done a couple of studies, unpublished, regarding UV and cryp. In each of my studies we counted live cells both before and after UV we found that the UV had little or no effect in an individual tank. So I guess I am saying don't waste your money on UV.

Someone mentioned that QT is great but after you have the problem you need something else. I disagree. Use the QT as a hospital tank. The fish are easy to treat there and the cryp in the display tank will vanish if deprived of hosts for six to eight weeks.

sedgro

10/11/2005, 07:44 PM

While you are correct that Metronidazole (aka Flagyl) may be used for anaerobic infections it also does have anti-protozoal activity. We commonly use it to treat Trichomonas vaginalis (guess what part of the body it infects) which is a flagellated protozoa as well as Giardia lamblia, another protozoa. Couldn't tell you if it works against marine ich or not.

John

CDGreenEyes

10/11/2005, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by sedgro
While you are correct that Metronidazole (aka Flagyl) may be used for anaerobic infections it also does have anti-protozoal activity. We commonly use it to treat Trichomonas vaginalis (guess what part of the body it infects) which is a flagellated protozoa as well as Giardia lamblia, another protozoa. Couldn't tell you if it works against marine ich or not.

Yeah, I am aware of that. I used to work in OB/GYN in another life. However, I have seen no evidence of its effectiveness against Cryp in aquaria. The few people I know who have used it report mixed success. I also wonder about its ability to cross the gill membrane. I might guess that to be effective it may have to be ingested? As I stated previously, I have not yet tried it.

just dave

10/11/2005, 09:01 PM

The only way I've heard of Metronidazole being used to treat SW Ich is it being mixed with food. Seachems product even has the directions to mix it on the container. I've never tried it but have talked to a couple of others that have been happy with the results.

Randall_James

10/11/2005, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by sedgro
While you are correct that Metronidazole (aka Flagyl) may be used for anaerobic infections it also does have anti-protozoal activity. ...

John Was originally intended for parasite problems. The antibiotic properties were only accidentally discovered.

Originally posted by CDGreenEyes
I continue to be amazed by the apparent resistance to quarantine tanks. I am equally amazed at the reliance on untested, unsubstantiated, and otherwise magic cures. I am glad to see Steven Pro take a few moments to post here as I feel he carries a bit more weight then the others of us that have just had to learn the hard way.

For those interested in more "Magic" cures (aka garlic) check out this months ReefKeeper. Steven did a nice article this month that covers garlic.. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

(I like he takes on some controversial stuff myself)

Trickman2

10/11/2005, 09:05 PM

Well I will keep you informed, At the moment the battle rages on. Unfornately I was stupid and did not quarantine a Harliquin tuskfish I bought and guess what my reef came down with Ick. With my current fish load I would need at least a 55 gallon to QT everything in my 90. Being limited on space, I am kinda in a bind.

CDGreenEyes

10/12/2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by just dave
The only way I've heard of Metronidazole being used to treat SW Ich is it being mixed with food.

That makes a bit more sense. Like I said, I have not used the stuff for treating cryp so I was unaware of the dosing recommendations/methods. The fact is that I have tried very few of the "Latest & Greatest" ich cures on the market because, as stated before, I quarantine everything. If cryp shows up during the quarantine period, I use copper (freshly mixed copper sulfate crystals & citric acid). It has worked every time and works amazingly fast. No need to try other, less tested, methods.

Trickman2

10/12/2005, 08:44 AM

At the moment I have Seachem Metronidazole, Seachem Focus and Seachem Garlic Guard on order.

Garlic Guard directions read as follows: DIRECTIONS: Shake well before use. Soak food in GarlicGuardâ„¢ before feeding. For enhanced effectiveness against Ich and other parasites use Seachem's Focusâ„¢ and Metronidazole as follows: Add 1 measure of Metronidazole to 1 measure of Focusâ„¢ per tablespoon of frozen food. Completely soak this food mix in GarlicGuardâ„¢, refrigerate, and feed once or twice daily for 1â€“2 weeks.
Unfornately this stuff has not arrived yet because Customaquatics where I ordered it from is moving and is having a hard time finding the items to fulfill my order. :eek2: :eek1:

I had already ordered some Gel-tek Ultra Cure PX (Aq. Prod) which contains Praziquantel--0.0057%, Flubenol--0.03%, metronidazole--0.3%. Before I realized that Metronidazole from seachem was another way to attack Ick. The direction state that the fish are suppose to eat the drops of Gel from the bottle but I found that not effective and have been using a garlic soak mixture, Ultra Cure Px and Spectrum Thera A Pellets to soak it up. So far no ill effects to my Reef. Just started feeding this monday. Figured at least this way I know they are getting some Metronidazole in their system (Just hoping their is enough in it to be effective). :worried2:

Hopefully I will have my seachem products before the week is up.

Also read the article on Garlic last week.
Some Usefull things I have found about Garlic. (Not sure about its effect against ick one thing I do know is it does not hurt anything)
It helps when feeding medication ( I would assume it has a strong taste that my fish are use to and it overides the taste of the medicine)
Anyways the War rages on :strooper: Wish me Luck

FYI the latest and greatest Reef Safe Ick Cures Suck, I have used Prevent Ick by Kordon, Reef Vital DNA, Kick Ich and Marine-Max. Can't say they had any effect whatsoever. Other than costing me a bunch of money.

A long time ago I had used Stop Parasites which did seem to help( but no conclusive evidence) On another note Kent Rxp is similar to Stop Parasites but I have not tried it yet.

Lastly if I ever get threw this damn Mess, I will quaratining any new fish I buy. I picked up a Whisper Internal power filter that is rated for up to 30 gallons to be used on a 15 gallon quaratine tub. Its building up Biological filtration in the sump as we speak. Getting Kinda tired of playing Russian Ruelette with my tank.

Randall_James

10/12/2005, 10:08 AM

Also read the article on Garlic last week.
Some Usefull things I have found about Garlic. (Not sure about its effect against ick one thing I do know is it does not hurt anything)
It helps when feeding medication ( I would assume it has a strong taste that my fish are use to and it overides the taste of the medicine)
Then you are aware that what you are doing with the garlic has nothing to do with the use as an anitbody. The garlic that someone so kindly released as a "cure" for Ich was actually "Injected" into the fish, not fed to them.
This would completely negate any claims of the "feeding" method as any type of medication.
Whether it does any harm or not has not been established either, but I suppose if a fish is stressed and not eating, and this entices him to eat, then it is doing some good.

When administering medications, absorption method can have everything to do with efficacy.

Trickman2

10/12/2005, 10:25 AM

I agree once your fish have Ick, the effect of Garlic is very unclear. Do I think it has some benefits, absouletly. Otherwise I would not be using it. Maybe its just in Nutritional value but their are still alot of things to be answered with garlic. Do I think its the cure all for everything absouletly not but what product actual out their can. I don't think their is a Magic bullet for anything in this Hobby. All have their Pros and Cons and their is alot of snake oil out their preying on desperate hobbyist. Anyways Garlic is Cheap and at the moment I feel the pros outweigh the cons of not using it.

Will I continue to use Garlic the answer is yes. Been using it for few years off and on.

I would love to see more Studies on it. Sounds like their are plans to do more testing by Steven Pro.

Trickman2

10/12/2005, 11:24 AM

Steven we would love to hear all about your future plans to Test Garlic. Care to enlighten us on these plans. (setup,etc)

Steven Pro

10/12/2005, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Trickman2
Steven we would love to hear all about your future plans to Test Garlic. Care to enlighten us on these plans. (setup,etc) The short answer is, I have 12 small identical tanks. I am going to place into those tanks three small fish with no previous exposure to the parasite, therefore no previous acquired immunity. And then I am going to infect them with Cryptocayron. I will have one control group which I don't infect. Another group which gets exposed, but no treatment. A third group that get exposed and given garlic laced foods once the white spots are evident. And, a fourth group that is fed garlic before, during, and after exposure to the parasite. All the while I will monitor and record mortalities.

Trickman2

10/12/2005, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by StevenPro
The short answer is, I have 12 small identical tanks. I am going to place into those tanks three small fish with no previous exposure to the parasite, therefore no previous acquired immunity. And then I am going to infect them with Cryptocayron. I will have one control group which I don't infect. Another group which gets exposed, but no treatment. A third group that get exposed and given garlic laced foods once the white spots are evident. And, a fourth group that is fed garlic before, during, and after exposure to the parasite. All the while I will monitor and record mortalities.

Sounds good when does the party Begin (Dieing Begin). Also are you going to make a thread and keep us informed.

12 tanks? 4 groups? Does that mean your going to infect X 3?
3 controls
3 exposed no treatment
3 exposed and treated after Signs show up
3 before during and after
___=12 tanks

Vinny73

10/12/2005, 12:00 PM

I used to also soak my food in garlic and then feed them a little more often and of course change the water more ofte. It seemed to work over a couple of weeks.

Steven Pro

10/12/2005, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Trickman2
Sounds good when does the party Begin (Dieing Begin). Also are you going to make a thread and keep us informed. I have the mollies already. They are acclimated and have been sitting in quarantine for over a month. I just have to clean out and prepare the small tanks from a previous experiment. When it is completed, I will submit an article to www.ReefKeeping.com detailing the procedures and results.

Originally posted by Trickman2
12 tanks? 4 groups? Does that mean your going to infect X 3?
3 controls
3 exposed no treatment
3 exposed and treated after Signs show up
3 before during and after
___=12 tanks Exactly!

Trickman2

10/12/2005, 03:31 PM

Are the Mollies going to be in Full Saltwater?

Steven Pro

10/12/2005, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Trickman2
Are the Mollies going to be in Full Saltwater? Yes, they are already acclimated to full strength seawater.

Trickman2

10/12/2005, 03:41 PM

Silly Question but where do you get the Ick from? How do you expose them.

CDGreenEyes

10/12/2005, 04:51 PM

Steven,

I realize mollies can contract marine cryp but I wonder, why not use a marine fish? (Besides mollies are cheaper)

Steven Pro

10/12/2005, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Trickman2
Silly Question but where do you get the Ick from? How do you expose them. That is the tricky part. I have talked to numerous people and we are going to use a serial transmission method. Basically, two fish go into each test cubicle. The unexposed control tanks get three fish each. I leave a dozen or more mollies in the quarantine tank. I then search around the LFS's until I find a fish I believe is infected with Cryptocaryon. I add that fish to the quarantine tank. Once those fish breakout, we sacrafice and necropsy some of the quarantine mollies and see what they have exactly. If they are infected with Cryptocaryon and only Cryptocaryon, we move one each into the nine remaining experimental tanks as sort of a Typhoid Mary.

Steven Pro

10/12/2005, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by CDGreenEyes
Steven,

I realize mollies can contract marine cryp but I wonder, why not use a marine fish? (Besides mollies are cheaper) Expensive is one of the concerns. I also need fishes that have never been exposed to Cryptocaryon before because variations in the amount of acquired immunity would throw off the experiments. Captive raised fish could work, but I am concerned that some hatcheries use natural seawater along with wild harvested plankton. I would have to feel very confident that there was no previous exposure and Mollies give me that guarantee. Plus, there is precedent for using similar fishes in experiments regarding Cryptocaryon:

Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1994. "A standardized method for the in vivo maintenance of Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) using the grey mullet Chelon labrosus as an experimental host." Journal of Parasitology 80:288-292, 1994.

Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1995. "Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora): acquired protective immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus." Fish & Shellfish Immunology 5(6):459-468, 1995.

Yoshinaga, T. & H.W. Dickerson. 1994. "Laboratory Propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans on a Saltwater-Adapted Poecilia Hybrid, the Black Molly" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:197-201, 1994.

Steven Pro

10/12/2005, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by StevenPro
That is the tricky part. I have talked to numerous people and we are going to use a serial transmission method. Basically, two fish go into each test cubicle. The unexposed control tanks get three fish each. I leave a dozen or more mollies in the quarantine tank. I then search around the LFS's until I find a fish I believe is infected with Cryptocaryon. I add that fish to the quarantine tank. Once those fish breakout, we sacrafice and necropsy some of the quarantine mollies and see what they have exactly. If they are infected with Cryptocaryon and only Cryptocaryon, we move one each into the nine remaining experimental tanks as sort of a Typhoid Mary. By the way, if the leftover exposed Mollies have anything other than just Cryptocaryon, I have to scrap them and get a new group to move into the test cubicles.

jarhed

10/13/2005, 09:12 AM

I'm on day 5 of the NoSickFish treatment. There really isnt any way for me to tell if it is working or not because none of the remaining fish in my tank have ever shown any symptoms (diamond Goby, four blue chromis, a six-line wrasse).

After Saturday's last treatment (seven day cycle), I'll purchase a fish or two and begin Quarantine with a combination of hyposalinity and copper.

Steven Pro

10/13/2005, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by jarhed
After Saturday's last treatment (seven day cycle), I'll purchase a fish or two and begin Quarantine with a combination of hyposalinity and copper. Hold on now. It is copper or hyposalinity, not both at the same time.

jarhed

10/13/2005, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by StevenPro
Hold on now. It is copper or hyposalinity, not both at the same time.

Oh really? Too much stress to do both? Ok. I'll just do hyposalinity and keep a good eye on their condition. Thanks for the tip!

jarhed

10/18/2005, 08:37 PM

Steven, one more question (sorry to hijack the thread):

It's been about 5.5 weeks since my last ich death occured (a beautiful friendly Picasso Trigger). I tried in vain to trap four blue chromis, one diamond goby, and one six-line wrasse to put in QT. None of them showed any symptoms, but I only managed to catch two chromis.

I treated the tank with NSF for 7 days (I know how you feel about the "reef safe" treatments but the positive feedback about the product impressed me). I have one Percula Clown in a 10gal QT with Copper right now.

I was told on another thread that the main tank will still have ich. Given the lifecycle, wouldnt the ich be dead now if they didnt infect the remaining fish? Granted they are pretty hardy fish, but I would think that at least one of the six would come down with a bad case in the past six weeks.

Am I way off here?

Randall_James

10/18/2005, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by jarhed

I treated the tank with NSF for 7 days (I know how you feel about the "reef safe" treatments but the positive feedback about the product impressed me). I have one Percula Clown in a 10gal QT with Copper right now.

So if you are using the magic stuff NSF, why are you still using copper on the clown?

Not sure "Whos" positive feedback you are referring to but there is no more proof that this $50 a bottle cure all does anymore than adding a pint of vodka to the tank. (oops vodka does have some benefits, my bad...) taco sauce then.

Maybe we can convince Steven to continue on with the Ich experiments when he is done with the garlic and try this stuff.

I am still curious why the multiple treatments.

At any rate, the way I see this, if the stuff was really all that great, they could give it away to several hundred users, wait for the glowing reviews and then make their money on the sales.

The market for an effective "Reef Safe" cure could likely make a person moderately successful.

jarhed

10/18/2005, 09:15 PM

I did not say that NSF is "magic", I said I used it. My fingers are still crossed. Either way, there is no way for me to judge the effectiveness with fish that did not show symptoms to begin with. The positive feedback I got right here on RC, and the feedback from the folks on the NSF site. Granted, the ones on the site are a given, it IS a business after all. Either way, I'm not afraid to try something when my needs require it.

The reason I'm using copper on the clown is because I just got it from someone and I have no idea what it has. Assuming the NSF worked perfectly, if the clown has ich, then I'd reinfest the tank. Just trying to be careful. Cant put copper in the reef.

As far as your opinion on how they should market it, perhaps you may want to contact them and sell them your idea. Maybe every new company should try that method? Or perhaps they are a little more versed on marketing than you and I and have found an effective method? Could it be that I missed the free buckets of IO giveaways when they started? :rolleyes:

Icedawg4563

10/18/2005, 09:56 PM

WOW I'm sorry guys! I guess the Fish Fairy likes me because after a year and a half in the hobby, I have yet to get ich. I have been bad about Quarantining, but I broke down an old tank and have all the QT necessities now so I am not pushin my luck anymore
Once again I'm sorry for your problems with Ich, My battle is with hair algea so thats enough for now.

NSF

10/18/2005, 11:08 PM

[i]

At any rate, the way I see this, if the stuff was really all that great, they could give it away to several hundred users, wait for the glowing reviews and then make their money on the sales.

[/B]

Randall,

At MACNA we handed out $11,500 worth of product! We did the same thing at IMAC in Chicago. We didn't try to sell a single bottle to anyone.

I am including a copy of an order from a user of our product. Take a look at the picture. They recieved a free sample at MACNA, they tried it, they liked it, they bought more. If it doesn't show up in the thread, feel free to email me, and I will email it to anyone.
http://www.nosickfish.com/advertising/order.gif
No Sick Fish

http://www.nosickfish.com/advertising/order.gif

Steven Pro

10/19/2005, 05:28 AM

As far as I know, none of the manufacturers of any 'reef-safe' treatment have yet to publish data showing that their products work or for that matter that they really are safe for everything that is in a mature reef display! Some don't even tell you what is in their product! ;) I just completed one experiment testing some of these treatments on Xenia in a controlled setting and showed that one of these that claimed to be "safe for all corals" did in fact kill the Xenia while a second one severely damaged the Xenia! I presented my findings at the D.C. MACNA and submitted it for publication to Reefkeeping. Until these products can first pass the test of whether or not they are truly safe and effective, I cannot recommend them.

As to your particular situation, just because you can't see the white spots doesn't mean they are not there. They could simply be too small to see or in the gills where you can't see them or only large enough to see for the last several hours of their lifecycle on the fish and you miss it or who knows.

There is an aquarium myth that ich is always present. And, there is just enough truth to that statement to make it dangerous. If you are militant about quarantine (like every public aquarium, aquaculture facility, breeder, etc. is) you can have a tank without this parasite. But, if you are haphazard with quarantine and never truly rid yourself of the infestation by using unproven, ineffective cures, you could certainly have a tank with this parasite at low levels simply waiting for the opportunity (like a power outage, big swing in temperature, or one of the other know things to trigger outbreaks) to kill everything.

jarhed

10/19/2005, 07:47 AM

Thanks Steven!

So, basically they could be continuing to ride on the fish in the first stage or second stage, while not destroying the fish?

Man, those little buggers are MEAN!

:smokin:

Off to find a decent fish trap. I guess I'll try to find a way to get the rest of the fish out and into the QT. Anyone have any tips on grabbing a six-line and Goby? I think the Chromis are sufficiently stupid enough to get into my homemade trap.

Asuran

10/19/2005, 08:06 AM

i just had a recent out break of ich myself... have a spare 30G that i used for a hospital tank... losing the battle right now... its really depressing...

garlic i find really gets the fish to eat food

but copper treatment for tangs are a "no no" right? due to their delicate systems?

v8maro

10/19/2005, 09:06 AM

I used kick-ich, and that stuff did NOT work. I then treated with cupramine in a QT, and then they all died, and no, I did not over-dose, they were just too far gone =(

ostrow

10/19/2005, 09:11 AM

Trickman: did you have any luck with that gel-tek stuff? Did the fish eat it? Did you try the focus? I'm thinking of using metranidazole powder with the gel-tek that is unmedicated, then soaking it in garlic. Not sure that'll work though.

drharmonnd

11/17/2005, 01:33 AM

What about adding fresh garlic? Crushed and placed in with food. Any thoughts against doing this in regards to fish tolerating this? Fish breath could be an issue.

EmergencyDpt

11/17/2005, 02:43 AM

I had an ich outbreak and lost two fish. I dosed with fresh garlic, for a week but the ich wouldn't go away and the house stunk like a pizzaria. Then I used metrondizole. About that time I noticed that my uv sterlizer had crapped out on me so I replaced it with a turbo twist, the biggest they make. No more ich. I think the outbreak coinsided with the original sterizers demise. So either replacing the sterilzer or dosing with metronadizol or both killed the evil things...for now. Garlic, I don't think it really helped.

wayne in norway

11/17/2005, 06:21 AM

If I was clever enough to make a cure for every known fish diesease, or at least the vast majority, I think I'd try to make

NoSickPeople

Cures cancer, AIDS and rheumatism.

I tihnk there's a lot more money there, but somehow it just doesn't seem credible.

So I'll stick to QT thanks

MCary

11/17/2005, 12:07 PM

I had a purple and a hippo tang get a pretty good case of Ich a few days after they arrived. I was a no QT idiot and they were put in the display tank. I set up a 29 for a hospital and have a sponge filter running in my sump for just such an occation but the fish were very active and eating well and I was concerned that attempts to catch them and transferring them to another tank would stress them and make the Ich worse for them. I fed some minced garlic to them right out of the frig and all the fish actually chomped it up. Fox face loves the stuff. Now I'm not so gullible as to believe that garlic has healing powers. I really just wanted an appetite stimulant so they would contiune to eat. And even if a myth, it couldn't hurt.

Anyway, by now the fish have shown significant improvement and are still active and eating. I monitored water quality, tempertaure and diet closely. I believe that keeping them healthy and stress free that their natural immunity fought off the infestation.

So the question is, if I had bought NoSickFish and put it in the tank, I surely would have experianced the same result. So how would I know if it was the medication that cured them?

Mike

Randall_James

11/17/2005, 09:04 PM

I had a fish with an ich outbreak and my porch light burned out, I replaced it with a floodlight and the ich went away....

Inspired by the UV sterilizer .......... and just as proven effective.

MCary put it very well actually, and I am afraid that is the case with about 99.999% of all claimed cures. They are impossible to verify or replicate.

jarhed

11/18/2005, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Randall_James
I had a fish with an ich outbreak and my porch light burned out, I replaced it with a floodlight and the ich went away....

http://users.adelphia.net/~jarhed/images/lmao.gif

pappadow

11/18/2005, 10:18 AM

I have been battling ick for a few weeks now. I was using kick ick for a full treatment cycle 14 days, and there were NO benefits. The ick got worse and 2 fish died.
Now I am trying No Sick Fish's stuff. Been dosing for a week, no changes. Except the fish are getting sicker, now my percs are about to die.
I started using them both together this morning. I figure it can't hurt, I'm beginning to doubt there are any active ingredients in either of these products.
Probably just nicely packaged, expensive bottles of water.

mmoore0803

12/10/2005, 01:10 PM

If you are still contemplating using this stuff, check out this link for a better idea of who and what this company is.....aout page 3 or 4 it gets interesting (and not in a good way)

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=637569&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

dorothyk

01/20/2006, 09:48 AM

Hey guys, i'm the one who started this string.. i tried 'NoSickFish' and $48 later and used as directed, only the Ick was doing well.

based on my experience, it was a waste of time and $$. i went back to the Cuppermine.

still searching for the miracle cure.

carrera mike

10/22/2007, 07:41 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5860655#post5860655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CDGreenEyes
This thread seemed like a great place to jump onto my quarantine soapbox. :cool:

This is all a moot point if you have a quarantine tank. Cryp is just too easy to cure with copper sulfate. It works every time, its tried and true and its fast. ... But it only works if there are no invertebrates present.

You can spend $50 on new medications that you hope might work and you can spend hundreds on a UV (which may not work) or you could set up a quarantine for $50 or less and use copper which will work virtually every time. The the quarantine tank is yours forever. Use it over and over. Future problems cost virtually nothing to solve.

If you quarantine ALL of your new fish for six weeks in your inexpensive quarantine tank prior to introduction into the display tank, you would not see these problems in the display tank and therefore not have to solve them.

Stepping down off soapbox.

Well said! :thumbsup:

olaf

12/04/2007, 08:07 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5847843#post5847843 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jarhed
Thanks jmack,

Ordering some now.

I'll have this in reserve for use if the NoSickFish doesnt work. I'm pretty impressed by the crew at NSF. I hadnt received my order and emailed them. They called me yesterday and reshipped another package. He was very concerned that I hadnt gotten the medicine yet and wanted to make sure I got to treat my fish.

Seriously, nobody has ever called me after I emailed to ask when it shipped. Truly a class act and concerned about customer satisfaction.

How did you get them to call you? I have called them and left voice mails and emailed them a few times with no response or reply. I guess you first have to purchase something from them before they will contact you.

Trickman2

12/04/2007, 09:10 AM

Hey guys, the only other method I found effective beside QT with copper... that is reefsafe is----- GarlicGuardâ„¢ Seachem's Focusâ„¢ and Metronidazole as follows: Add 1 measure of Metronidazole to 1 measure of Focusâ„¢ per tablespoon of frozen food. Completely soak this food mix in GarlicGuardâ„¢, refrigerate, and feed once or twice daily for 1â€“2 weeks. ------ I have had great success with this, there is still some debate if this truly eradicates the IcK but it does help and I have not lost any fish to Ick using this method. For a reef safe treatment its the only one I have found effective at all. Hope this helps. Wonder even Steven ever finished his tests on Ick

ostrow

12/04/2007, 09:34 AM

Trickman2 -- I also add, over this goop, AP's GelTek pX. Not alot but enough drops to coat the goop, so that it really adheres to the food. To my eye, the focus doesn't do as good a job of binding it to the food as advertised.

It does work well, IME.

carrera mike

12/04/2007, 11:50 PM

Very good article

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/ich.html

tmz

12/05/2007, 12:10 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5852391#post5852391 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmoore0803
I bought and treated my tank with NSF Ich treatment and evrything (in regards to fish) in my tank still ended up dying. Dosed as it said on the package and the first day it looked like it might work (Fish started looking better...fewer spots) but after day 1 treatment, it went downhill. I lost a white-faced powder brown, a juv. imperator, then 4 little oscellaris'...slow die off...All the inverts and corals in the tank are fine so the product doesn't seem to infect reef inhabitants...I sent NSF a letter of what happened and was told I had the strain that is difficult to get rid of (though I only know of 1 strain of marine ich). Ich came into my tank via LFS (got me once in my FW and now in my SW....no more $$$ for them) and now I'm looking into a UV purchase just to make sure all parasites are in fact dead (plus waiting 6 weeks b4 thinking of adding any fish)...just another of life's lessons (yeah yeah...a QT would have prevented this and yes I plan on QTing all new fish in the future)

Mike Just fyi,some of the Cryptocaryon cysts have remained viable for 72days. A uv sterilizer although helpfull will not assure all parasites are dead. Leaving the tank wihout fish to host will. Good Luck