Pics of closed loop drilled on bottom of tank (please post)

[ckuhndog77]

Subject says it all - looking for pictures of tanks drilled on bottom for closed loop.

Thanks in advance

[sidewinder770]

Here's a pic of mine- not the best shot but I think you can get the idea-
http://www.systemsu.com/reeftank/plumbing7.jpg

[ckuhndog77]

Sidewinder770

Holy sh1t man. Any pick of tank to see nozzles - that is awesome. I just got a oceanic 215 starfire front - drilled on bottom with 4 holes - was trying to think how to get flow going, up, down, over top via sea-swirls or oceansmotions.

Your current pic helps a bunch, but still have questions.

[sidewinder770]

I don't have any really good pics of the nozzles for say- here is a link to the 10th page of my thread that talks a bit about the closed loop-

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=522988&perpage=25&pagenumber=10

I think there are a few more pics and descriptions of the closed loops as well on other pages but you'd have to just look at the thread to find them. I also used a OM 4way (kind of hard to see in the pic above) but in total I have 2 closed loops with a total of 24 locline nozzles- plus more for the sump return- most of which you can't see because they are built into "rock supporting structures". Feel free to ask whatever questions you want and I'll try to answer them for ya if I can.

[ckuhndog77]

Thanks again, you and others here are so kind. I looked over most of your thread. Nice work. Still left with Q's on where to fine 1 inch nozzles (other than oceansmotions). Just looking at all my options before I buy something.

Any idea if bottom closed loop, 2 x 6100 streams and the returns is overkill on flow? I have 2 x 1/2 sea-swirls I will probably hook into returns or loop as well.

[Kent E]

Sidewinder, ever worry about a leak? I'm building now and will have 4 holes in the bottom, will I sleep at night?

[bulldogfish]

ckuhndog77- You won't find anywhere that carries the nozzles in 1 inch except for oceansmotions. Industrial loc-line only comes in 3/4".

[sidewinder770]

Kent E- I'm not to worried about a leak- I've done it this way on several tanks without a problem. Sure I've heard horror stories but realistically- the PVC is glued in place and it's all Schedule 40 so I've really done all I can. I don't worry about that leaking any more than the tank itself leaking :rolleyes:

[Kent E]

yea, I'm considereing a "catch all bucket" under my new tank. So if it does leak it go down the drain or in the yard. Only thing is that I havent found anything 8'x3'.

[moonpod]

http://www.o2manyfish.com/pics2post/Moon_450/Moon_Tank_Delivery-016.jpg

The nozzles aren't on yet, neither is the plumbing but the intake screens are there.
http://homepage.mac.com/moonpod/.Pictures/New%20Tank/Closed%20loop%20plumbing.jpg

[ckuhndog77]

Moon,

Can you provide better pic of intake screen - is it just standard 1"mpt threaded bulkhead screen or am I missing something.

Plan to order 1 oceansmotions nozzles - no other option

[Kent E]

Thats alot of holes, but its acylic, right?

[moonpod]

My tank is acrylic. 1" all the way around. 10x3x2. Those are 1.5" mpt screens. Jacuzzi stuff. You can get clear more vertical types as well.

[ckuhndog77]

Thanks again everyone.

Now to find a online supplier of pool/spa bulkhead strainers to compare to normal bulkhead ones. And to try to find the money to pay for oceansmotions 4-way :) Sure does cost lots to do it right in this hobby, at least for some things ha ha

[ckuhndog77]

1st, I'm not very good with camera; 2nd, it was 10:45 pm when I quickly took a few shots to have something to post up.

Few more shots here: (Plus dups of below) (http://www.wamas.org/albums/gator.htm)

Entire tank:
http://www.wamas.org/albums/Gator/215%20tank%20010.jpg

Right side tank - bottom closed loop inside of tank
http://www.wamas.org/albums/Gator/215%20tank%20011.jpg

Closed loop pump & Oceansmotions 4-way on Dart pump
http://www.wamas.org/albums/Gator/215%20tank%20016.jpg

Plumbing shot (don't mind the overflow tube, had sump in there just to test tank. Sump to go in back room once I finish install. Filled to test bulkheads on CL
http://www.wamas.org/albums/Gator/215%20tank%20018.jpg

stand doors open to see tank and some of CL plumbing
http://www.wamas.org/albums/Gator/215%20tank%20021.jpg

[ckuhndog77]

Sump return will be through 2 sea-swirls.

Closed loop w/ oceansmotions 4-way - 2 x returns in bottome of tank and used the built in 1" return holes in over-flows for the other 2 returns of CL.

I thought it would be easier to hide the drain holes on CL by butting them out outside of tank and returns in center.

Will also have pair of tunze 6100's on tank for flow too.

Thus, closed loop, sea-swirls and tunze 6100's should give plenty of flow :D

Various plumbing parts from Savko.com and lowes. Can't find any black fittings that have both male and female threads on short 2 inch piece :( Have to combine 2 pieces which may end up to high off sand. We will see

Comments welcome

[cjtoo]

Hey ckuhndog,
Nice setup! How did you get the bottom of that Oceanic drilled? I thought they were tempered on the bottom? I want to drill the bottom of my Oceanic 75 Gal RR too, front and back to get good flow with the Super Squirt. Do tell.

[ckuhndog77]

Thanks,

custom order from factory with holes on bottom. Got stand at same time from them and they drilled stand to match tank holes. I painted back with blue & black spray paint.

[dgasmd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5763655#post5763655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sidewinder770
Kent E- I'm not to worried about a leak- I've done it this way on several tanks without a problem. Sure I've heard horror stories but realistically- the PVC is glued in place and it's all Schedule 40 so I've really done all I can. I don't worry about that leaking any more than the tank itself leaking :rolleyes:

Funny. I used to sleep well with this arrangement too until someone brought up the fact that is the pumps blows a seal your entire tank will be dry in a couple of minutes:eek1: :confused: :eek1: Haven't really slept well since, especially since I ahve taken a seal apart and know now what a small part is that keep the water inside the pump!!

Craig:

I seriously wished I had seen this thread before. I would have made an attempt at talking you out of it. After seeing Saxby's talk at MACNA and how they bring the plumbing from above with all those tricks, that is the only way I would do another tank if I was to eveer do that again.

With that aside, it looks really nice. Love the stand color:D

[ckuhndog77]

Alberto (or others):

How often do the sequence "dart" pumps need service?

So much for a good night sleep - at least tank will be in basement on pergo floor with concrete under it so major flood should not destroy to much I hope

[dgasmd]

I would just take them out once per year and soak the volute and impellet in vinegar>>>>scrub>>>>>replace. I am due for mine.

[sonofgaladriel]

I only have four CL returns through the floor on my current 240 cube. (My next tank will have all CL returns through the bottom, around 16 of them ;) )
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/sonofgaladriel/DSC02192Medium.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/sonofgaladriel/cubebulkheads.jpg

[morgan1965]

I seriously wished I had seen this thread before. I would have made an attempt at talking you out of it. After seeing Saxby's talk at MACNA and how they bring the plumbing from above with all those tricks, that is the only way I would do another tank if I was to eveer do that again.



dgasmd- I'm in the process of setting up a 390 with 2 C/L's drilled through the bottom. I'm trying to eliminate (or at least minimize) unsightly plumbing, etc. I haven't done any drilling yet and I'm open to being talked out of it. Can you tell me more about Saxby's methods?


Thank you,
Dan

[dgasmd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6462113#post6462113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by morgan1965
dgasmd- I'm in the process of setting up a 390 with 2 C/L's drilled through the bottom. I'm trying to eliminate (or at least minimize) unsightly plumbing, etc. I haven't done any drilling yet and I'm open to being talked out of it. Can you tell me more about Saxby's methods?


Thank you,
Dan

Is your tank glass or acrylic? It will more of a difference with one than the other.

[morgan1965]

acrylic

[morgan1965]

Is your tank glass or acrylic? It will more of a difference with one than the other.


It's acrylic.

[JCurry]

Bump intrested in what Alberto has to say. Thanks.

[dgasmd]

Sorry for the delay there. There are a few downsides to using close loops and mostly the risks associated with the plumbing that comes with it.

1. First point of failure is the pump itself. If you ever open the wet end of a pmp like the AmpMasters or the Sequence, you'll see what the seal is and how it works. It is basicly 2 circular parts, one attached to the impeller (mobile) and one attached to the back of the wet end (non-mobile). When the shaft spins and moves the impeler, the surface of the seal that is attached to the impeller rotates on the other surface that does not move. Think of 2 O-rings placed on top of each other where the bottom one sits there and the one on top is rotating right on top of it. The contact between these two incredibly flat surfaces is what prevents water from coming out the back of the wet end. When this surface gets corroded or gets micro abbrassions or chipped off parts, the water leaks through there out the back and you see whater coming out from the back of the impeller. So, you get a little chip there and water will come out like a garden hose. Assume this is happening at 2 AM. So how low is the water going to drain in the tank? As low as the lowest point inside the tank connected tot he plumbing (discharge or intake). So, if you have a tank drilled at the bottom (like I do) the moment this happens, and it has already happened to a few people, it will drain your entire tank.

2. Second issue pertains to the plumbing itself. That is regardless of a the type of close loop, plumbing, pump, glass vs acrylic, and design. Over time, all the valves will stop working. They will never seal completely. It may happen in 6 month or 6 years, but ultimately it will happen regardless. Now, that may not seem like a big deal, but try changing the pump or clean the impeller for your close loop at the bottom of the tank with the valve leaking, which may be a little or a mini river. And trust me, you will have to sooner or later.

3. Acrylic vs glass. This applies mostly to glass tanks. Where you drill the holes in the bottom will have a lot to do with the integrity of the bottom pane. Once you put it in a stand and fill it with water, it may make the bottom have some pressure points that will crack the bottom with very little change. When you use a wood stand, over time it does settle and have tiny shifts/movement. If your tank is sitting on top of it with styrofoam, that settle has much less effect on the bottom pane, but it still has some. In other words, it may crack the bottom over time.

Again, sorry it took me so long to reply, there was a video of the build of a 5000g tank in Chicago by Deltec that Saxby had shown during MACNA. It sowed how they did the overflow and close loops coming fromthe top of the tank and out of sight. I was searching for the link to it to post it, but could not find it anywhere.

[sixxer]

Here is the link you were looking for Alberto.

http://www.marineaquarium.nl/december-2005Engels.php

Personally, still trying to figure out how they do those closed loops, as I have not drilled my acrylic tank yet (and prefer not to!)

[sixxer]

Alberto,

Do they have the Closed loop drain and returns plumbed in that looking overflow area? I watched the video again and they show a diagram of the set-up, still a little hard to read.

[dgasmd]

Their overflow floors are not part of the floor of the aquarium. It is just another smaller piece of glass with holes attached to the side of the tank. For the close loops, they bring all the plumbing (intake and discharge) from above and basicly cover them with a false wall that just clips oto the plumbing itself so you don't see it at all. They don't use eurobrace int heir tanks as they basicly use a metal frame around the top end amde of stainless steel that has braces front to back made of smaller steel bars. However, if you have a eurobrace with holes in it, you can pass the plumbing through them and either build a false overfow box to cover them or make some acrylic panels bent in a U shape and glue a pipe holder that would clip to the piping. Many many ways of doing this. You just have to have the proper planning.

Thanks for posting the video link again.

[sixxer]

I have four 2" holes in my external overflow box. Would it be possible to use one of those holes for my closed loop intake? Then I could use some of the holes in my eurobracing for returns and disguise the pvc.

[dgasmd]

If your close loop's intake is going to be inside the overflow, then that means your overflow would have to "overflow" the amount the close loop puts out plus what goes into your sump. I wouldn't do it for the simple reason that your intake would be sukcing in a ton of air even if your overflow flow rate was goo enough = microbubbles!! Now, if you meant to go through the overflow and over intot he tank, I guess I can't see why not. Just drill a little hole 3" fromt he water surface on the intake pipe to the close loop pump, so if your seal blows and water starts t come out like a syphon from your pump, it will kill that syphon.

[dgasmd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6475687#post6475687 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dgasmd
Sorry for the delay there. There are a few downsides to using close loops and mostly the risks associated with the plumbing that comes with it.

1. First point of failure is the pump itself. If you ever open the wet end of a pmp like the AmpMasters or the Sequence, you'll see what the seal is and how it works. It is basicly 2 circular parts, one attached to the impeller (mobile) and one attached to the back of the wet end (non-mobile). When the shaft spins and moves the impeler, the surface of the seal that is attached to the impeller rotates on the other surface that does not move. Think of 2 O-rings placed on top of each other where the bottom one sits there and the one on top is rotating right on top of it. The contact between these two incredibly flat surfaces is what prevents water from coming out the back of the wet end. When this surface gets corroded or gets micro abbrassions or chipped off parts, the water leaks through there out the back and you see whater coming out from the back of the impeller. So, you get a little chip there and water will come out like a garden hose. Assume this is happening at 2 AM. So how low is the water going to drain in the tank? As low as the lowest point inside the tank connected tot he plumbing (discharge or intake). So, if you have a tank drilled at the bottom (like I do) the moment this happens, and it has already happened to a few people, it will drain your entire tank.

2. Second issue pertains to the plumbing itself. That is regardless of a the type of close loop, plumbing, pump, glass vs acrylic, and design. Over time, all the valves will stop working. They will never seal completely. It may happen in 6 month or 6 years, but ultimately it will happen regardless. Now, that may not seem like a big deal, but try changing the pump or clean the impeller for your close loop at the bottom of the tank with the valve leaking, which may be a little or a mini river. And trust me, you will have to sooner or later.

3. Acrylic vs glass. This applies mostly to glass tanks. Where you drill the holes in the bottom will have a lot to do with the integrity of the bottom pane. Once you put it in a stand and fill it with water, it may make the bottom have some pressure points that will crack the bottom with very little change. When you use a wood stand, over time it does settle and have tiny shifts/movement. If your tank is sitting on top of it with styrofoam, that settle has much less effect on the bottom pane, but it still has some. In other words, it may crack the bottom over time.

Again, sorry it took me so long to reply, there was a video of the build of a 5000g tank in Chicago by Deltec that Saxby had shown during MACNA. It sowed how they did the overflow and close loops coming fromthe top of the tank and out of sight. I was searching for the link to it to post it, but could not find it anywhere.

I apologize I missed something here. I was supposed to also say how to avoid the big river should the seal go kaka. What you have to do is position your pump so the wet end of it is right at the same level as the top of the water level in the aquarium. Even if the bulkhead for the intake is at the bottom of the tank, the tank won't drain because it will suck air and break the syphon the moment the water level gets below the wet end. That is one solution I can think of. The only problem with that is if you don't have a room behind your tank to place your pumps high it will be difficult to conceal. Another issue is the plumbing itself. However, you can't have the cake and eat it too.

[ckuhndog77]

So far no leaks from bulkheads on bottom of tank. :D Any time I work inside stand, I tell myself NOT to pull on any pipes.

Full
http://www.reeftanktips.com/images/DSCN2510.JPG

Left
http://www.reeftanktips.com/images/DSCN2514.JPG
Right
http://www.reeftanktips.com/images/DSCN2513.JPG