why did mr. 4000's tank poop out?

[Large Polyp Dave]

i know it had something to do with humidity. but was it not a resolvable issue?

i'm a complete newbie in regards to really large tanks but... how come an air exchanger couldn't fix it?

Did the fish room have a vapor barrier in it? The thought of a larger FOWLR tank is becoming increasingly appealing but I'm afraid of humidity issues.

[Kent E]

From what I was able to gather it was destroying his house and he had tried everything.

I found out recently, from others who have built their homes, that if they used plastic as a moisture barrier as opposed to faced insulation, it really locks in the moisture because it doesn't "breathe" at all. A super air tight house may make large tanks impossible even with exchangers.

I built my house and used faced innsulation and have pine walls. this has a high R value and breathes great. I have a 120 and boil water on the wood stove, I'm moving to a 450 and am not concerend at all. Then again its not 4000 gallons either ;)

[norskfisk]

LP Dave:
Right, it failed because of moisture and that is a solvable problem.
He did not use any type of barrier or any other type of system to beat moisture. His tank and huge sump filtration system was placed openly in sevaral large rooms in the basement so the moisture flowed into the whole house.

The solution to the moisture problem is simple: Place the tank in a room that is air sealed from the rest of the house. Put at separate ventilation system in the room. Insulate the room to avoid condensation on the walls. The walls are not supposed to breathe. That is the same as sucking moisture into the rest of the house. That works for small tanks, if you are lucky. The separate ventilation system should do the breathing. Putting a heat exchanger on it is a good idea because it allows you to ventilate heavily without wasting so much energy.

[Large Polyp Dave]

ah okay.

got it. thanks guys

[Kent E]

We are discussing different things. Exterior walls are actually supposed to "breathe" If they don't your house will be nasty and filled with mold.

How many tanks are up and running indoors in the 4000 range? It would be good to verify if the separate room precautions work, beyond theory. I know this is the direction people are taking with many tanks that are substantially smaller. Ex. AO 2000 gal, but that is only half the size. Anyone?

[piercho]

One thing not mentioned that could be appropriate in some climates are large, powerful, ducted whole-house dehumidifiers. This did the trick for humidity control in the house I just sold. The one I have is noisy but since it is ducted I put it in the basement by the furnace and tapped into the ductwork of the central air system. I left the air handler on 24/7 and the dehumidifier kicked on whenever the humidity in the room where the humidistat was located reached 50%. The capacity of this one is 100 pint/day and that was way more than I needed, but maybe not enough for a larger house or a very large aquarium.

Not cheap, I think we paid upwards of $2000 for the dehumidifier system. But when you consider the $30K grand piano it was bought to protect, along with all my tools that were in the utility room getting rusted by thier proximity to the aquarium sump, it was a pretty good investment for us.

[Flatlander]

Summer? Summer? Thats the question.

Like mentioned about water on the wood stove my house is very dry in the winter, with the HRV running and a wood stove heating. One needs a huge tank to help with humidity levels. ;)

The problem is in the summer, when the outside air is humid. HRV,s are pretty well useless. Just circulate humid air. Large central air helps somewhat. Perhaps the large central dehumidifiers may help.

Many say, "well I vent my tank outside". So where does the replacement air come from and how does one dry in, in a humid climate?

[Flatlander]

:confused:





:)

[capncapo]

Flatlander,

I see you are from Canada and don't know if you use an air conditioner but................

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=640757

[capncapo]

By the way, here's a link to a 5000 gallon tank in someones basement.

http://www.seaplace.org/gallery/Zilla-III

[fishypets]

Does somewhere know where the link was to Mr. 4000 tank. I heard about it but never seen it.

[Flatlander]

Originally posted by capncapo
Flatlander,

I see you are from Canada and don't know if you use an air conditioner but................

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=640757

Thanks for the link. Good thread. However, for myself, I dont have ducted heat. I do have ductless AC upstairs, which keeps the house cool enough, including the basement area where the tank is.

Guess I need to find another summer solution, if I was to replace the larger tank I had in my fishroom.

[pclausen]

What you need is a combination HRV/ERV instead of a HRV only unit.

Here's a link to the one I'm in the process of installing in my house:

http://www.ultimateair.com/store/recoupaerator_200DX_mi.html

In the summer, the heat AND humidity is pulled out of the incoming air and "exchanged" to the outgoing air stream.

[-Keith-]

Interesting ideas on controlling humidity in the fish room and the whole house. Why not just cover or partially cover the tank?

Of the top of my head I can think of three reasons, NOT to do this, but none of the seem compelling.

1. Covering the tank will prevent gas exchange and a reef tank needs to exchange O2 and CO2. The amount of open surface area required to exchange the gases is likely very small. Alternatively, tubing made of various materials (one being silicone) will permits the exchange of gases but not liquid water or significant amounts of water vapor. These could be used to faciliate gas exchange if needed.

2. Covering the tank will reduce light transmission. Even with clear glass, some light will be lost - not so much from the glass itself, but the salt spray or condensation that will deposit. Potentially an issue, but probably similar in magnitude to light loss due to salt spray on light fixtures which seem managable.

3. If water evaporation is reduced, evaproative cooling will also be significantly reduced since when water evaproates, it carries a lot of heat with it. This might be a benefit in the winter when we are heating our tanks, but make then much harder to cool in the summer.

[skippyreef]

Capncapo,

How are people doing with your modification?

I have not done it yet but am gettingready to do it this week.

[capncapo]

Skippy,

I have heard nothing but good news so far from those who have said anything. Many folks have told me that they are going to give it a try and I have yet to hear a complaint.

You should definitely give it a try and let me know what you think ( next summer ). :D

Your basement and tank/stand are looking good. Nice work.

[skippyreef]

Thanks Capn'

I am going to use the snips this weekend. I needed to figure out where things would be placed in order to do this right. I have all the lights and wiring done and most of the insulation as well.

I will give this a try and like you said if it I dont like it I can close teh vent.

[Flatlander]

Originally posted by pclausen
What you need is a combination HRV/ERV instead of a HRV only unit.

Here's a link to the one I'm in the process of installing in my house:

http://www.ultimateair.com/store/recoupaerator_200DX_mi.html

In the summer, the heat AND humidity is pulled out of the incoming air and "exchanged" to the outgoing air stream.

Thanks for the links. Going to have a look. I did talk with a Lifebreath rep. once, about their large HRV/Dehumidifier units, bit never followed it up.

Although I,m still reading, I have yet to see how it can act as a dehumidifier?

Keith, I tried the covers on a couple larger sized tanks. It helped somewhat but as mentioned, summer is the problem and thus the temp. of a covered tank would be also. Plus the heat from 400w halides, which I would say is needed in a large deep tank with covers, adds to the problems.

I dont think it hinders gas exchange. as large overflows and a sump, usually provide more than enough.

[Mr.4000]

Its been a while since i've been here and i happen to run across this thread.The humidity issue was the main reason i had to dismantle the tank.I should of built it into an airtight room with an outside air exchanger and it would of been fine but hinesight is not always there.You just can't imagine the humidty that 4000 gallons can have and in the winter the house was like walking into a sauna if we didn't keep some of the windows open by the tank then you had to deal with 10 to 30 degree temps which made the room steam up.Then there was the cost that was getting out of sight.In the summer my electric bills were $1000 plus just to run the lights, pumps and air conditioner to keep the tank and house cool.

[NoamB]

Hello Mr4000. i'm really sorry you had to dismantle the tank. i'm sure after putting so much thought, time and effort into the tank dismantling it wasn't easy.

I'm pretty new to this forum, i've been searching for over 2 hours now and still i can't find the old thread for the tank (maybe it didn't had one?). i understand there was a website, but all the links i came up with are dead. after all those searches i didn't even find a single screenshot :(

I'll be really greatfull if someone could give me a link to the website (if it still exists) or anywhere else that might have some screenshots or more informaion about the tank. i'd really like to see how it once was.

Thanks in advance.

[Mr.4000]

Here is a link that i found on here that brought back a lot of memories.I did take a lot of pics but scanning them and posting them they don't look so good.The link shows the website i had and there are a lot of pics that show up, here it is http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mr4000.com Its been almost 4 years since i had to take it down and i still wish i had it.

[marinelife]

Do you have any tanks now?

[Sir Crabby]

I've done HVAC for 20 yrs and installed many systems called Desert Air units which dehumidify, cool and heat particular spaces with high humidity problems. We used these units for homes built with indoor swimming pools. These pools were over 14,000 gallons and all contained in the house with all the other rooms, never had mold issues in the homes. only draw back is they are very expensive. Just thought I'd post info about these units incase someone is looking to do another large tank.

[Mr.4000]

Marinelife i don't have any tanks now, i did try a few smaller ones but they just weren't the same as the big one.Sir Crabby, i know what your talking about, but the pools are probably in rooms that are sealed from the rest of the house(at least the ones i have seen here in Michigan are) which is why the units you install work.I had the tank so it was impossible to seal it from the rest of the house( i never took humidity as being an issue when i built it).By the time i noticed the mold issue it was too late and any additional humidity would of only made it worse.The mold was coming from behind some of the drywall and the walls were getting mushy.It wasn't long after i took the tank down that the mold cleared up and the mushy walls were hard again.