PDA

View Full Version : ReefKeeping Mag Goniopora Article Review


John Kelly
10/10/2005, 10:25 AM
I have been seriously thinking about this article over the last few days.......since RK magazine is not a peer-reviewed journal, I'll post my thoughts here.


To be fair, Justin who wrote the article appears to have been working with goniopora fragments for some time. No telling how many have died; but obviously he has had some success with keeping them alive. It is good work. He has utilized the deep sand bed method/no skimmer method while dosing phytoplankton to the tank.

99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements, on the other hand, have come from 2 people. JenNKerry at www.reefcraze.com (http://www.reefcraze.com/) (using Liquid Life Marine Plankton. site published in April) and myself at www.goniopora.org (http://www.goniopora.org/) (utilizing the "stew" of mashed cyclopeeze and a number of other foods. site published in July). Both of us commenced these experiments at the beginning of Feburary of this year (2005), both of us have made literally hundreds of posts about our methods here at ReefCentral, and both of us are proving the positive results that come from target feeding Goniopora. When Jen and Kerry posted a thread announcing their experiment, which I posted to also, it was met with so much controversy that the thread was closed. Now, ReefKeeping magazine (reefcentral) has an article about Goniopora Care and Propagation?

Credit needs to be given where credit is due. :thumbsup:

greenbean36191
10/10/2005, 10:54 AM
He beat you to publishing in RK. It happens in the research world all the time and there really isn't much anyone can do. If he's been doing the same type of work and he beats you to publishing it in RK then as long as he didn't borrow any of this methods directly from you without acknowledging it (which I don't think there is much of a case here) then it's hard to say that he owes anyone anything.

None of that changes the value of the work you've been doing though.

Yes, it would have been nice to acknowledge that others have been doing similar work, but IMO there isn't anything wrong with the article as is.

Obi-dad
10/10/2005, 11:11 AM
ReefArtist, a lot of people here on RC have read the posts by you and by JenNKerry, and would acknowledge your contribution to the care of goniopora knowledge - although saying '99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people' seems a little overboard. I have been keeping a goni using Justin's advice long before coming across your posts, and I am sure that others have kept them alive by feeding them also.

Why not contact ReefKeeping magazine and write an article yourself?

JENnKerry
10/10/2005, 01:24 PM
Justin's article was very good and informative. But like Greenbean and Obi-dad said, he beat us to it. Well I can only speak for myself (Kerry) and Jen when I say that we never even thought about writing an article for the RK mag. But if people take the info from Justin's article, plus the numerous posts from myself and Reefartist along with visiting our sites, I'm sure a newbie that got suckered into buying a goniopora will have that much better of a chance at getting one to survive.
Bottom line, there's some great info out there.

John Kelly
10/10/2005, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by greenbean36191
He beat you to publishing in RK.

I wasn't racing.

Yes, it would have been nice to acknowledge that others have been doing similar work, but IMO there isn't anything wrong with the article as is.

Exactly, it would have been nice to acknowledge the PUBLISHED work of others who have performed research and proved that Goniopora will feed on cyclopeeze and a number of other foods. It is obvious to me from his list of references that he did research online and referenced authors and researchers..........you don't think he read through and referenced our web sites? Mine is not hard to find if you type the word "Goniopora" into Yahoo. A web site is considered published material.

I may be hallucinating, but the FOODS section of the article sounds strangely familar; almost like the index page and foods/feeding page on my web site, just not in so many words. In fact, in his FOODS section, why even question this?:
"Another question exists as to which foods are best and which combinations are best. Perhaps feeding a coral a stew of 10 different kinds of food might impact its ability to digest the food, or maybe it makes no difference."

He must have gotten the idea that feeding a "stew" has been done by someone......otherwise, there would be no existing question about it. Does he reference who did it? No.
It is obvious he has seen it somewhere.
It just so happens that I feed a "stew" and give instructions for making it on my web site.
It just so happens that I have 10 different kinds of food listed on my web site from which a "stew" can be made.
It just so happens that his whole FOODS section reads very much like my web site.....................coincidence?.

O.K. I will be blunt, I think he purposely left out any reference to my work and Jen/Kerry's too in an attempt to sound as if he is braking all this "new ground". I have enough respect to give credit where credit is due and won't pull JenNKerry into this anymore (sorry:)) Now, I see that there is a race on. MACNA presentation, RK article,......very interesting. It's a good thing I'm giving the Goniopora presentation at IMAC 2006.

John Kelly
10/10/2005, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Obi-dad
ReefArtist, a lot of people here on RC have read the posts by you and by JenNKerry, and would acknowledge your contribution to the care of goniopora knowledge - although saying '99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people' seems a little overboard.

I know you are his friend. Honestly, I don't think "99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements" is overboard at all.

I have been keeping a goni using Justin's advice long before coming across your posts, and I am sure that others have kept them alive by feeding them also.
I assume you are talking about utilizing a DSB and dosing the tank.
He just started Iron supplements less than 4 months ago.
He hasn't been using Liquid Life for very long; probably not even target feeding very long either.

Why not contact ReefKeeping magazine and write an article yourself?
Good Idea :idea: I think I will. Honestly, that is a good idea....I have a TON of research material.

John Kelly
10/10/2005, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by JENnKerry
Justin's article was very good and informative.
Agreed.

But like Greenbean and Obi-dad said, he beat us to it. Well I can only speak for myself (Kerry) and Jen when I say that we never even thought about writing an article for the RK mag.
That's because you were trying to help others; not capitalize on information.

But if people take the info from Justin's article, plus the numerous posts from myself and Reefartist along with visiting our sites, I'm sure a newbie that got suckered into buying a goniopora will have that much better of a chance at getting one to survive.
Bottom line, there's some great info out there.
Definitely true.

Obi-dad
10/11/2005, 05:58 AM
ReefArtist, you are trying to take way too much credit for feeding goiniopora - goiniopora are corals, and many have talked about feeding corals way before you, including Eric Borneman. We readers of RC DO appreciate all you have posted. But you did not invent feeding goiniopora, and 99.9% of the information on feeding goniopora is not from you.

John Kelly
10/11/2005, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Obi-dad
ReefArtist, you are trying to take way too much credit for feeding goiniopora
Am I? Is that why I am saying that JenNKerry deserve credit too? It is obvious to me that someone isn't giving any credit at all.

- goiniopora are corals, and many have talked about feeding corals way before you, including Eric Borneman.
Nice wording! Of course many have talked about feeding corals. Where are the experiments and results of feeding Goniopora published?

We readers of RC DO appreciate all you have posted.
Thank you everyone. If the mortality rate of Goniopora is cut in half, it was all worth the effort.

But you did not invent feeding goiniopora, and 99.9% of the information on feeding goniopora is not from you.
Again, nice wording! I did not say I or anybody invented anything. I said "advancements". There is a big difference.

If it were not for these advancements; I believe that there would not be a "Goniopora Care and Propagation" article. PERIOD. In fact, there probably wouldn't even be any Goniopora threads here on RC, or anywhere else, other than:
Question: "I've had a goni for a month and it's dying, what do I do?"
Answer: "It's going to die, do your research before you buy"
Answer: "Take it back to the store"
Answer: "Goni's should be banned from collection"
Answer: "I had one and it died in X months"
Answer: "Put it in your sump"
Answer: "They love fish doo and nitrates"
Answer: "Stirring up the sand bed seems to help"

I think the point is clear. The whole future of Goniopora in capitivity has been reversed.

Steven Pro
10/11/2005, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by ReefArtist
since RK magazine is not a peer-reviewed journal, I'll post my thoughts here. I just wanted to chime in here and say as someone who writes for RK, every article I have ever submitted has been reviewed by Dr. Ron Shimek, Eric Borneman, Skip Attix, and others that I can't recall now. As I understand it, that is RK's normal process.

Steven Pro
10/11/2005, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by ReefArtist
99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements, on the other hand, have come from 2 people. JenNKerry at www.reefcraze.com (http://www.reefcraze.com/) (using Liquid Life Marine Plankton. site published in April) and myself at www.goniopora.org (http://www.goniopora.org/) (utilizing the "stew" of mashed cyclopeeze and a number of other foods. site published in July). Both of us commenced these experiments at the beginning of Feburary of this year (2005) I also hope that you realize the difference in keeping a challenging animal alive for three years (I believe that was Justin's longest) versus your eight and a half months.

That is not to belittle your accomplishments to date. I have seen your photo series of Goniopora eating Cyclop-Eeze. Those were superb!

Obi-dad
10/11/2005, 09:17 AM
OK, I will reword it - not all of 99.9% of the advancements on feeding goniopora is from you.

I think you are getting too defensive. All I was pointing out is that you are claiming 99.9% of the credit, and that is not correct.

shane 1111
10/11/2005, 09:48 AM
has any one had the guts to frag them. and he has ben feeding for a wile
he can produce way more frags than waiting for babies

MiddletonMark
10/11/2005, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by ReefArtist
A web site is considered published material.

There are different standards of published material - and some might not consider personal websites.

Originally posted by ReefArtist
e must have gotten the idea that feeding a "stew" has been done by someone......otherwise, there would be no existing question about it. Does he reference who did it? No.
It is obvious he has seen it somewhere.
It just so happens that I feed a "stew" and give instructions for making it on my web site.

And I sure hope you credit Eric Borneman, who published [here and in his book] a `coral food stew' a few years ago.

Nevermind people sell products that are mixed foods for coral feeding ... where's the big innovation?

I suppose for completeness he could reference Eric, Julian [he sells coral foods], Anthony, etc etc etc ... and Melev, FlameAngel, and the many others [myself included] who have `published' our coral food recipes before this year.

No offense intended, but I think Eric's 2001 book would precede anyone here's coral-mush.

I don't think that's very revolutionary, and has been suggested by a number of `experts' and been used as foods [Formula One, etc] for a good number of years IMO.

JENnKerry
10/11/2005, 10:54 AM
Wow. You know, the way I look at it, its not a compitition, its putting knowlege out there. The only thing we publish on our site is our methods and what works for us. Whether it will work for you or someone on the other side of the planet is something else.
Honestly, Im not THAT cocky to write an article for RK magazine or any other magazine for that fact. I cant, cause I cant truely 100% call my findings "success in keeping them alive!" If I found the cure and it was proven 1000 fold, then YEA, thats it. But I think its a bit premature for anyone to write an artical on a proven method on how to keep them alive.

Well, yea, most of my Goni's are pushing the 2 year mark, only losing 1 because it came in bleached (then brown jelly) and that I got to live for almost 5 months. AND my Goniopora Stoksi which is supposed to be the hardest Gonil to care for dropped 10 babies since January and is still going strong. Even with the success I have seen still hasnt built my confidence up enough to publish it in a magazine.

Thats just how I feel...
Jen

LeslieP
10/11/2005, 11:57 AM
I really don't think that Justin wrote that article to be "cocky" or to race to publish first - he is releasing to the public information about his experiences with this sensitive and beautiful coral - just like anyone else who publishes to a website, he just picked a different medium to convey that information. I have seen the tanks that Justin oversees and have personally seen these Goniopora and their frags thriving and growing over the last few years, his success is no fluke. He cares about the corals and NOT personal or commercial gain.

IF RK is edited as StevenPro has said, then the reviewers would have requested references if they had felt that they were needed. Perhaps they felt that the information has been out in the public domain long enough that additional references were not needed about the mush. As a scientist who has a few publications, I know that I don't have to reference everyone in my field who has ever lifted a pipet, but to choose the ones that most closely impact my work.

I'm mostly writing this because it is appears that this thread is becoming an unfair attack on someone who was just trying to help inform others and I am certainly not trying to take anything away from others (JENnKerry & ReefArtist) who have also posted very important information that has helped countless others over the years.

GSchiemer
10/11/2005, 12:19 PM
If anyone deserves credit and references related to Goniopora feeding, and especially supplementation (iron), it's Julian Sprung. He's written and spoken about this topic long before anyone mentioned in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, that's the real oversight and slight.

Greg

JENnKerry
10/11/2005, 12:23 PM
Good post Leslie. To add a little further what Jen was saying before, if you go to our website, you will find information on what has worked for us. It may or may not work for you. She also said that most of our gonis are pushing the two year mark. We thought that after getting our first one, maybe it was a fluke. So we got another and another and another. They all seem to be thriving. So with that said, if we still have them in another two years, then maybe I'll publish an article for RK magazine.
I think Justin did a great job with his article and I for one found it very informative.

John Kelly
10/11/2005, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by StevenPro
I just wanted to chime in here and say as someone who writes for RK, every article I have ever submitted has been reviewed by Dr. Ron Shimek, Eric Borneman, Skip Attix, and others that I can't recall now. As I understand it, that is RK's normal process.
Thanks for the clarification Steven. I did try to find this out before I posted, but I did not email RK mag.

Originally posted by StevenPro
I also hope that you realize the difference in keeping a challenging animal alive for three years (I believe that was Justin's longest) versus your eight and a half months.
Yes, I absolutely realize the difference. I respect that.......but, his whole article is based on this:
"Until recently, I have, in good conscience, offered the same advice heard from reefkeepers across the country when referring to Goniopora: "Yes, they're very pretty, but don't buy them. They won't make it past a year."....................."I can now tell customers that it is possible to keep Goniopora alive, as long as you provide the proper care and feeding for the species in question."

What revelation has been taking place for the past 8 1/2 months that recently changed his mind?

That is not to belittle your accomplishments to date. I have seen your photo series of Goniopora eating Cyclop-Eeze. Those were superb!

Thank you for the acknowledgement; it is uplifting :)

shane 1111
10/11/2005, 12:54 PM
his are all captive grown. and he does not sell Goniopora Stoksi much. i would not but a Goniopora from just any store

John Kelly
10/11/2005, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by MiddletonMark
.
Mark, your just a troublemaker LOL :D
The first stew was probably invented when 1 person wasn't enough to feed the tribe anymore.

Actually, the "stew" took quite a bit of research and experimenting to create. It had to have the correct size, texture, taste, and ingredients to work. If you just dumped it into the tank, it wouldn't do a very good job of feeding your other corals because most of it would stay clumped, but yet it is soft enough to draw up into a target feeding device and for a goni to suck down. It needed to be viscous enough to hold a variety of foods and not come apart, but it also needed to be liquid enough that the goni would taste it and not reject it like they do dry foods. Since some goni's have small mouths and some have large, it needed to be adjustable from more viscous to less.

John Kelly
10/11/2005, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by GSchiemer
If anyone deserves credit and references related to Goniopora feeding, and especially supplementation (iron), it's Julian Sprung. He's written and spoken about this topic long before anyone mentioned in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, that's the real oversight and slight. Greg
Actually, I think his second turn is coming...or is it third?

greenbean36191
10/11/2005, 01:55 PM
Leslie, I couldn't have said it better myself.... I tried and I failed miserably.

The comment that he beat you to publishing in RK was not intended to imply that it was a race to be the first to publish as many people have obviously taken it. It simply meant that sometimes when two people are working on the same problem and one publishes in a more public venue first, then they are usually the one that gets the glory. It sucks for the other guy (you), but it doesn't make the work you did any less valuable.

Trying to improve our success at keeping these animals shouldn't turn into a ****ing match.

John Kelly
10/11/2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by LeslieP
As a scientist who has a few publications, I know that I don't have to reference everyone in my field who has ever lifted a pipet, but to choose the ones that most closely impact my work.

BINGO!

justincognito
10/11/2005, 04:40 PM
Very interesting thread. I am a little flattered but i'm not in this to fan my ego. First off i have only been to Jen and Kerry's website but not Reefartist. Seconnd I have spent well over a year using many different foods, noting reactions, making careful observations. I worked really, really hard on this article. I spent many days after work (2months straight right before it was done) and many sleepless nights to the detriment of my family. I made sure iwas as accruate as possible and that initself required much research. What you may have noticed is that i have only included 8 or 9 species of GOniopora. I have more under my care but i only wrote of the ones that i have had for a considerable period of time and i felt i was doing well with. Eric Borneman suggested i write the article and i thought the time was right.
Reef artist i understand you have been doing food mixtures. I have been using them for years with many other corals i grow. Perhaps our lists are so similar is because there are only so many foods available, and we have both discovered which have the best feeding reactions. I must give credit to Jen and Kerry for the Liquid life. If i didn't in this article i beleive i did in my MACNA talk. The reason i did not include threads in my article is because there are not peer reveiwed. Everything we say here is conjecture. Whenever i say anything in publication or at a talk that is not "proven" i make sure to say, " In my opinion." Referencing threads or websites is not proper in when writing an article. If i did that i would not be scientificaly accurate. I give much credit to everyone taking time to post and make websites dedicated these corals. I wrote this article because of my absolute love of these corals.
We can argue the merits of who did it first. But guess what? None of did. Eric B. has had a Goniopora for 9 years. Beat that!! some people have kept them for over a dozen years.
I have to go my kids are fighting.

justincognito
10/11/2005, 04:41 PM
i meant say "None of us did."

Flatlander
10/11/2005, 04:57 PM
Heck, we all did a food stew. Nothing new. I,m sure I had threads on it many years ago, posted here someplace. I fed my soft corals, {no Goniopora}, a mush. My corals grew like crazy and I kept many aquarists in soft corals from propagation. Some of the larger were in my old 170, {April/01, TOTM}, {seeing as everyone else is tooting someones horn, :lol:.

However, I still like the "research" and articles, these aquarists are doing. Even though I still dont keep any Goniopora, I like to read the articles and threads from the above mentioned authors. Keep up the good work, as our "hobby", can only benefit. :)

JENnKerry
10/11/2005, 06:06 PM
Yeah, our "stew" is nothing spectacular. It's just what all of our corals like. Our LPS love it, as do the fish. The gonis eat it but until recently, we've only been feeding the gonis the LL. It's a trial and error thing to see what they like. For us, it's the LL, nothing else.

shane 1111
10/11/2005, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by justincognito
.
I have to go my kids are fighting.
you have kids! you look mad young!
how old are you. i thought you were around 25:eek:

Aqua_expert19
10/11/2005, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by JENnKerry
I'm sure a newbie that got suckered into buying a goniopora will have that much better of a chance at getting one to survive.


ME!!! i bought mine a year ago and it has been abused and mistreated and it has grown and thrived for some time i love my gonni. Sorry ive been no help

John Kelly
10/11/2005, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by justincognito
Very interesting thread. I am a little flattered but i'm not in this to fan my ego.
Really? Then why did you and your friend obi-dad, who was the first person to post a reply here, spam 10 different threads (or forums) here on RC annoucing your article? …on the same day together.

Originally posted by justincognito
First off i have only been to Jen and Kerry's website but not Reefartist.
I find that very hard to believe.

Originally posted by justincognito
Seconnd I have spent well over a year using many different foods, noting reactions, making careful observations.
TAKEN FROM YOUR POST HERE ON RC 6/15/05:
"I have had success with about 6-8 different Goniopora for about 3 years."

TAKEN FROM YOUR ARTICLE:
“For the first two and a half years, I did no direct feeding of the colonies except for occasional additions of phytoplankton.”

So you had your colonies maybe 3 years and did no direct feeding of the colonies except for occasional additions of phytoplankton for the first two and a half years, then say you have spent well over a year using many different foods, noting reactions, making careful observations?

So how long have you really been experimenting with Goniopora by feeding small foods, stews, liquid life, anything? 4 months maybe?

Again,

TAKEN FROM THE ARTICLE:
“Over the last nine months I have begun adding Kent Iron supplement weekly as per directions on the bottle.”

TAKEN FROM YOUR POST HERE ON RC 6/15/05:
"I also just started iron supplementing. Seem to help."

Justin, please get your stories straight.....

I will stick with what I have said here in this thread:
-- 99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people. JenNKerry at www.reefcraze.com (http://www.reefcraze.com/) (using Liquid Life Marine Plankton. site published in April) and myself at www.goniopora.org (http://www.goniopora.org/) (utilizing the "stew" of mashed cyclopeeze and a number of other foods. site published in July).
-- If it were not for these advancements; I believe that there would not be a "Goniopora Care and Propagation" article.
-- “Credit needs to be given where credit is due.”
-- I think he purposely left out any reference to my work and Jen/Kerry's too in an attempt to sound as if he is braking all this "new ground".

shane 1111
10/12/2005, 04:15 AM
how many different types do you keep and frag?
one maybe 2

MiddletonMark
10/12/2005, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by ReefArtist
I will stick with what I have said here in this thread:
-- 99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people.
Eric Borneman and Julian Sprung.

Let's get it right, shall we? You're the first to ever devise a mush?

Except for the addition of LL [newer on the market ...] - I haven't heard of any novel change to coral mush.
Can I say I have a radical new version, since I put Oyster Eggs in mine? Should everyone who feeds any mixed coral food now have to credit me, as I added something?

:confused:

shane 1111
10/12/2005, 06:03 AM
Eric Borneman and Julian Sprung were the ones that need credit.
and i have ben to JENnKerry's site. but i have never herd of you ReefArtist. what have you done?
i have never seen a post with you in it ReefArtist

Obi-dad
10/12/2005, 06:31 AM
I also had never been to ReefArtist's site, nor heard of him until he posted this thread. This thread comes off like ReefArtist is very jealous that someone else wrote about feeding goniopora.

Steven Pro
10/12/2005, 07:33 AM
Just for a frame of reference, I know Martin Moe published a mush food recipe in his 1982 The Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder. That is a little over two decades ago and there may have been others. That is simply the oldest book in my reference library.

John Kelly
10/12/2005, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Obi-dad
I also had never been to ReefArtist's site, nor heard of him until he posted this thread. This thread comes off like ReefArtist is very jealous that someone else wrote about feeding goniopora.

Originally posted by Obi-dad
ReefArtist, a lot of people here on RC have read the posts by you and by JenNKerry, and would acknowledge your contribution to the care of goniopora knowledge

This makes a lot of sense......

mhurley
10/12/2005, 08:41 AM
[flamealert]

John Kelly
10/12/2005, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Let's get it right, shall we?
You're the first to ever devise a mush?

OK.

Actually, YES. A Goniopora mush. Why do you keep pointing back to Eric B.? Do you think he invented the idea of a mush? or how about Martin M. do you think he invented the idea of a mush? I am not trying to take credit for the idea of a mush. I guess you didn't read my last reply to you. It took a lot of research to figure out what foods a goniopora would or could consume.

And I think you are entirely missing the point of my post.........a lot of goniopora foods and feeding research has gone on in the last 8 1/2 months. All I am trying to point out is that Justin has built on this research. What is wrong with that? This research has obviously helped Justin's attempts at propagating. I think his closer look at individual species is very interesting, but you don't go from DSB and phytoplankton feedings to target feeding specific foods that Goniopora will show a positive feeding response to out of nowhere.
There is a link between the "old" method of keeping Goniopora and the "new" method of keeping Goniopora.'
I hope that makes my intentions more clear.

For example:
I am currently trying to find the minimum amount of iron that a few species of goniopora needs in order to keep their polyps extended. Do you think I am going to write an article about how I did this with iron and I did that with iron, without mentioning the awesome work of Julian Sprung? I am merely trying to build on it and respect the fact that he identified a single element that goniopora needed. Finding foods that goniopora will and can eat is very similar to finding that single element.

Obi-dad
10/12/2005, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by ReefArtist
This makes a lot of sense......

My error, I was actually referring to having read JenNKerry, I hadn't been to your website.

All I am trying to point out is that Justin has built on this research.

You don't know this to be true.


To repeat what I said before, no one is disagreeing that you have made posts about feeding goniopora. What we are disagreeing with is you taking 99.9% of the credit of the advancements in feeding goniopora.

Steven Pro
10/12/2005, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by ReefArtist
It took a lot of research to figure out what foods a goniopora would or could consume. Could you please expand upon this statement? What research did you do? Did you search through the scientific literature to find gut content analysis of Goniopora species in the wild? What are we talking about here?

justincognito
10/12/2005, 12:12 PM
In a way i am glad this is sparking so much debate since it brings interest to the subject. Rock stars love publicity even if its for trashing a hotel room or getting arrested, it all serves to get them put on the map.

Reefartist, as for feeding and stuff. I have had some colonies well over 3 and half years. That means for two and half years i did not feed, then about a year ago i started feeding. That makes for over 3 years in captivity and no direct feeding for 2 and a half.
As for just starting iron. Well for me 9 months isn't that long for trying a brand new husbandry regimen.

And in all fairness to you and Jen and Kerry, but 8 and half months and 18 months are not all that long respectively. I use the word success in my article regarding my work with much thought and consideration. I feel even three years is just a flash in the pan for the potential longevity of these corals. I hads come to the conclusion as have many others long ago that Goniopora where starving in captivity. The work we are all doing has helped proved this to be true.

I cannot in terms of adding the solid scientific knowledge about these coral refernce websites or threads. I can however reference researched and peer reveiwed articles.

Much credit to Obi-Dad. He is very enthuthiastic about his corals and his posting. He has kept one of my Goniopora for a year himself. I post about my article on threads because i pop in from time to time and my article is extremely valid for the questions being raised by other hobbyists.

In short we all need to lose the egos. If you have thought of something chances are 10 other people have thought about it or done it first. I have found that out myself. Dozens of people are successful with Goniopora. MAny people for years have been using food stews for years on many different corals. Perhaps what i have done new is that i have painstakenly researched the subject, ID all the colonies i wrote about and did detailed studies on. I did not include the other 30 i have because i have not IDed them and have less notes on them. I will be doing a food study comparing growth rate with different foods and combinations. That study will be submitted for peer reveiw for scientists validate the work.
I really wish i didn't have to put my energy into this. I, like many of our fellow Reefers, love coral and want them to grow. I even wrote a song about Goniopora because i love them so much. I acknowledge everyone in this hobby who has freely shared their failures and successes has allowed us all to be more successful.

JENnKerry
10/12/2005, 12:56 PM
Well said Justin :thumbsup:

Just so you all know, I'm staying out of this one :D

John Kelly
10/12/2005, 06:53 PM
"It took a lot of research to figure out what foods a goniopora would or could consume."

Originally posted by StevenPro
Could you please expand upon this statement?
Sure :)

What research did you do?
I have said this before in previous threads; Goniopora don't just open up and eat a steak dinner.

Can you recognize what the feeding response looks like among all of the other strange behaviors?

Have you figured out what triggers the feeding response?

How do you know Goniopora are even consuming the food you are trying if you don't witness it actually consuming it?

If you don't witness Goniopora consuming food, then why would you keep feeding it?

Many foods Goniopora will grab and let go of; others they attempt to consume.
Why is that?
How do you get past that?

Some polyps may try to consume a food that another polyp on the same colony just lets go of; it seems like a big mystery.
Why is that?

How do you keep the food concentrated enough to benefit Goniopora once you have determined that it will consume it?

The tentacles of many Goniopora are in such crummy shape when they are purchased that the food you thought would work can't be held and consumed.
Why can't they hold the food?
So what do you do then?

I have answered every one of those questions, and that is kind of research it takes to figure out what foods Goniopora can and will eat. It takes more than just 4 or 5 months of food experiments to answer those questions and formulate a list of foods that will work; much less formulate a "stew" of them. I have never seen a positive feeding response to phytoplankton from the 6 or 7 different species that I have tried it on. From early on, I have not believed phytoplankton was even a food for them; but was found in the the gut as result of them trying to consume other foods......although, I still have questions about it. That is why I am doing bare bottom experiments now.

These questions would be EXTREMELY difficult to find the answers to if you were working with smaller polyped/ smaller mouthed/ shorter tentacled species.
The only way I know for certain that smaller polyped species will consume cyclopeeze is because I use diluted forms of my "stew" to feed them; otherwise, good luck actually witnessing it. My stew is designed to hold the foods in it. It took a lot of research to figure out what foods a goniopora would or could consume AND how to get them to consume them. You don't just go from dosing the tank with phytoplankton to feeding a list of small foods without A LOT of research.

Did you search through the scientific literature to find gut content analysis of Goniopora species in the wild?
No, I did not search through the scientific literature..........I went straight to the person who did it (at least the only one I know of) and have had direct correspondence with her. I also obained permission to use a couple of her responses on my web site. Actually, she proof read the paragraph that I used her references in and O.K.ed it for use.

What are we talking about here?

We are talking about what I have been saying all along:
-- 99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people. JenNKerry and myself.
-- If it were not for these advancements; I believe that there would not be a "Goniopora Care and Propagation" article.
-- “Credit needs to be given where credit is due.”
-- I think he purposely left out any reference to my work and Jen/Kerry's too in an attempt to sound as if he is braking all this "new ground".

John Kelly
10/12/2005, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by justincognito
In a way i am glad this is sparking so much debate since it brings interest to the subject. Rock stars love publicity even if its for trashing a hotel room or getting arrested, it all serves to get them put on the map.

In short we all need to lose the egos.

I'm not the one racing to be a rock star. Nor am I the one that puts my initials on the frags I sell. I have nothing to gain from it other than the satisfaction that I have made a contribution. All is done on my own time and money. My ego is not bruised and I am not jealous.


I will be doing a food study comparing growth rate with different foods and combinations. That study will be submitted for peer reveiw for scientists validate the work.
It is interesting that you have been working on propagation for the last "about" 3 something something years; now, all of the sudden you are "racing" to do a food study? What prompted this new direction?

I have already pointed out in my previous post a few LARGE contradictions in what you say. I have identified more, but have decided to cease. My point has been made and I know you have received it; everyone else here can see it too. I have documented everything I have done with times, dates, photos, notes etc... I would suggest that you start doing the same. Saying "About X years" just doesn't cut it. I do respect the work you have done with propagation. The advancements of Goniopora foods and feeding by a couple of people have now made it much more successful for you.

John Kelly
10/12/2005, 07:27 PM
.

km133688
10/12/2005, 07:49 PM
Hi all, my turn...

To, John, you are obviously quit knowedgeable. The effective list of questions you give us above is enough to demonstrate this. I would be very interested in your producing an in-depth article on what you know and have done. Please, if you are waiting for the right moment, I'd say now is about right.

Also, please post your website address so we can all have a look. If we ain't been there yet, it sounds like a place we should be heading to soon.

As for Justin, I count him among my list of gently known friends. He is my main fish guy and his boss's store is my main store (as are many posting in this thread from CT.). Please let me assure you for what it is worth; I can state without hesitation that there could never have been any malice on his part in any of his writings. He is just not that kind of guy. In fact I think you can see this from his replys. Nope, you won't convince any of us who know him personally that he purposely left credit to you out of his article.

To Justin, when is the album gonna be out? You guys have a cool and diverse sound and I want a piece of it for my morning rides into work.

To Shane, yeah, I thought he was early 20s too, hehe. Guess it comes from all that good living. Or maybe he has been eating a little of that goni-mush on the side. Hmm... what is good for the corals is good for the coral keeper?

Kevin

shane 1111
10/12/2005, 08:39 PM
Justin is a very very nice guy.

Obi-dad
10/13/2005, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by ReefArtist

We are talking about what I have been saying all along:
-- 99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people. JenNKerry and myself.


Not correct. I think someone's ego is getting the better of his critical thinking.

Originally posted by ReefArtist

-- If it were not for these advancements; I believe that there would not be a "Goniopora Care and Propagation" article.


How can you be so certain you are the only one to be able to come up with feeding?

Originally posted by ReefArtist

-- I think he purposely left out any reference to my work and Jen/Kerry's too in an attempt to sound as if he is braking all this "new ground".

This is just getting to be mailicious against Justin. I think it is time to reconsider how you are coming across to all who read this thread.

Steven Pro
10/13/2005, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by Obi-dad
I think it is time to reconsider how you are coming across to all who read this thread. John, you are making some rather bold claims here. I asked you what research you conducted. To which you repsonded with a host of questions. The only reference you said you found and used was talking to Jen and/or Kerry about what had worked for them. If there is more to it than that (which I think there probably is) please explain or point me/us to somewhere else where you detail your trials.

John Kelly
10/13/2005, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Obi-dad
This is just getting to be mailicious against Justin. I think it is time to reconsider how you are coming across to all who read this thread.
I disagree on the malicious part. There were no personal attacks made toward him. I have taken a few borderline malicious shots in this thread, but that's ok.
Peace Obi-dad.

It is obvious he referenced JenNKerry's work and what they have/are showing will work for Goniopora. My case can't be proven. I know that. I probably sound like a real jerk. I'm sorry. I have made my points, which I feel are pretty good ones, but there is no cause for pursuing it any further.

I firmly believe that within 5 years many people won't even remember or even know the past history of Goniopora in captivity. There are very very few people right now that realize what an impact foods, feeding, and methods for proper care will have on the Genus; not to mention propagation too.

Skipper
10/13/2005, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by ReefArtist
I probably sound like a real jerk.
:thumbsup: