~450G Display (~1000G system) documentary starting

[kwl1763]

I struggled with what to name the thread as I'm a couple months out on actually placing the tank but a lot of planning has already begun and I want to go ahead and get it started now.

First things first. The tank will be 120x36x25. It will be an SPS/Clam dominated tank, barebottem with most likely black starboard!

It will be inwall viewable on 2 sides. 3/4" glass with Diamante low iron on the viewable sides.

It will be in my basement and will have a huge ~500 sqft fish room behind it where I can put all the sumps and equipment, etc.

So far here is what i will have.

4 100G rubbermaid troughs for sumps.

One will be for the skimmer input and output and where I store the heaters, phosban reactors,etc.

Second will be a "DSB in a bucket" see the thread in Anthony Calfo's all things salty forum for more info. Basically it is a remote DSB. That way if any problems do arise with it I can take it out and replace without tearing down the system!

The third will be a refugium and frag growout tank. 75% of the tank will be just cheato for the pods to play in. a small part will be sectioned off and made into a frag propegation section.

The final will be the return portion where I will have the calcium reactor effluent, keep the probes for the ACII, etc.

These will all be cascaded 6" above each other with bulkheads for drains near the top so no additional pumps will be needed. I am also planning the plumbing so that with a few ball valve turns I can take any one of them offline and still have the system run. This is in case one leaks, I have a DSB problem, a heater melts one, whatever just for safety factor.

I will also have 2 additional 100G troughs stacked on top of each other. The top will have saltwater in it. It will be setup so that a ~100G water change will be a couple ball valve deal. The bottom will be RO/DO water and where the autotopoff will come from to the return sump. When I do a water change I will run the RODI unit stright into the saltwater bin until it's full then I'll mix the salt in that bin with a powerhead so I'll always have a 100G "tank" at the ready in case of a major emergency. I have the new Merlin RO unit that can do like 700-1000GPD! There is still more planning that needs to go into this part of the setup but we'll save that for a later post!

Equipment: Pics will follow for some

Skimmer is a DIY ~6ft tall dual Beckett powered by an Iwaki 100. I will build a waste collector out of a 5G bucket with an autoshutoff feature.

I will inject ozone but do not have the unit yet and not sure which one I'll go with. More to come.

I have 4 phoban reactors that I will hook up in series. The first 3 will run phosban or simular and the last will run carbon. I assume that I will have to change the first canister much more often the the last 2 but I'll just have to play that one by ear for now.

I have a dual chamber monster calcium reactor built by Reeftek with an Ehiem pump. I will probably T off the same feed pump for the phosban reactors for this. Both need so little flow!

Lighting: From a previous tank I have 2 250W DE PFO pendants and ballasts. I think I am going to get 20ks for these and run them in between 3 250W Iwasaki's with either Luminarc or PFO reflectors. I'm hoping that the 20k combined with the 6500s will give a nice look. If not I can always add some T5 actinics.

Flow:

2 Tunze waveboxes, a closed loop with this 1/3hp pump http://www.bermudaaquatics.com/hepumps.htm and a manifold with ~10 outlets at the top.
2 Tunze 6100s.
The return pump will be an Iwaki 55 with two eductors on the end. I haven't eaxactly calculated total flow but it's a lot, I think over 15,000 GPH!

I will have 5 holes drilled in the back. A 2" bulkhead for the closed loop intake, 2 1.5" drains, and 2 1.5" returns. I will have a 60"x8"x8" horizontal overflow centered in the back. I'm debating on hole location for the closed loop intake and the returns. Part of me want to put them lower so I can create better movement along the bottom but the other part of me wants to put them all near the top so If I ever have a bulkhead leak I'll be OK. Opinions?


That's enough for now. Next post has the pics!

[kwl1763]

Ok first this is where the tank is going to be. Right where the boxes are now. For reference the little wall in the back there is 36" and the wall running toward you to the door space is 124"

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/Tankspot.jpg

Here is the fish room for sumps and equipment. It is roughly 28'x22' but of course some real estate is taken already with the AC/heater, hot water heater, etc

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/fishroom.jpg


Here is under the stairs. this is in between where the tank will be and the fish room. So tank (far left) will back up to this space, and then to the right of this space is the fish room. I think in here I'm going to build a permenant platform since I will basically only have the back side fully accessable and the stand will be 40" tall I'll probably built a 2 ft or so platform to allow me to work in the tank easier.


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/stairs.jpg

Here some equipment pics. 90% is from previous tanks.

This is the skimmer and behind you can see the calcium reactor and my Q tank.



http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/skimmer.jpg

Then we have what I call the graveyard. It has a smorgasboard of lights, pumps, waveboxes, etc. About 90% I've had for quite a while and has run on at least one other tank. My wife asked me how much money was sitting in that pile. It almost made me cry thinking about it!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/graveyard.jpg

Finally a closer up picture of the 100G sumps. These things are very thick and well built. A bargain at $50 for sure.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/sumps.jpg

[Purple Haze]

holy skimmer batman. Well, you know what they say about Texas?!

[Chrisrush]

That was true until he moved to ATL. I guess GA boys now have a new saying.

Good luck Keith. That looks like it's going to be sweet.

From what I've read about the Lum3, they are the way to go, especially if you are going to have your DE fixtures (spot) imbetween the 6.5k.

I like the skimmer, that thing is going to rock. Where did you get it from?

That closed loop pump is sweet, is it sw safe?

Chris

[pondfrog]

Great project, good luck, I'm sure updates won't come soon enough for anybody---especially you!!

You have a lot of thought into this and I must have missed something about the sumps....
If you have 3x100g cascading into each other and the return pump to the tank drawing from the bottom one, what if a power failure when you are not home-- would you not overfill the bottom one by some amount- unless you run it really low (taking into account whatever flow will come out of the 2 tubs above it, the plumbing from the tank, and the overflow from the tank which will be a lot in your case with such a large tank) ?
'Steve

[melev]

Keith, I would add at least one more 1.5" drain. My 280g has two 1.5" drains, and you are almost doubling the tank I have now. It would be ideal to have plenty of drains, even if they all drain slowly. Plus you can direct various drains to the perfect location (skimmer section or refugium or prop as needed).

Black Starboard may look good, but I have to say after seeing Ryan's white starboard covered with coralline in less than two months, white is fine. Plus you do get some reflective qualities for the undersides of your SPS at least for a while.

A platform to work on the tank would be great, or a walkboard at least. I'm about to put one behind my tank finally.

The closed loop with eductors and your return pump should be nice, but I have a feeling you'll want more 6100's or the new Vortech perhaps.

This should be great. Wish I was closer to see how this thing evolves. I hope you post a ton of pictures.

[tomasz]

Marc do you have multiple drains in your over flow, or do you have one drain per overflow? Any pictures (I know you are good with the camera). Thanks Tom.

[kwl1763]

That's a good idea Marc about adding another drain. Can't hurt anything even though I'm only going to flow like 1300 GPH through the drains. I'll really have to plan what size all my piping and stuff is. That is something I haven't done yet.

White is fine but I have seen a tank in person now with black and it looks truly awesome. It doen't matter that much since within a few months it won't really matter anyway! So I'll check the price. If it's more expensive I'll probably stick with white.

Pond frog, the bulkheads I'm going to drill will be near the top of the sumps so when the power goes out all that will drain will be the little bit down to the bulkhead bottom. I figure there will be roughly 40 - 50G total when the power goes out with almost 50% coming from the skimmer! Even up to 75G I should be fine as I'm goin gto run the bottom one only about 25-30G for that very reason!

So the offset will be small with the water flowing into the first section from the drain then going into my newly drilled bulkhead at the top to the next tank, etc, etc. I hope that makes sense. I'll try to get some sort of drawing together to make it clearer.

I need to update all my stuff to GA and get rid of my old tank in my sig line etc but I'm lazy! I had to turn in my Texas license and get a Georgia one yesterday. It was kind of sad! I do love it here though!

Chris the skimmer ws built by a guy in Dallas. He ended up not putting together a big tank so he sold it to me with the Iwaki 100 for real cheap. I have to say it is the best deal I have made! I haven't run it in saltwater yet. I have run it in the tub and it water tested fine so I don't think I'll have any issues. The pump is indeed saltwater safe. The guy that owns that site is at MACNA every year and is a great guy. The pumps are real efficient for what they pump!

[melev]

My tank has two overflows. Each one has a 1.5" drain and a 1" return. I'll have to take some fresh pictures, but you can see some of it from beneath on this page actually: http://www.melevsreef.com/280g/280g_sump.html

Keith, there really is no limit to how many holes you have for the overflow with a horizontal tray like overflow to run the length of the tank. 2, 3, 4 would fit easily. You can screw a strainer on to them to keep the fish from going down the drain. Matter of fact, I'd recommend it. You may also want to put a lid or cover over that overflow to reduce nuisance algae and hopefully keep fish out of there.

[Chrisrush]

If you can, you may want to make your overflows shallower than 8", especially if you have access from behind the tank. With slower flow, more detrius will buildup and getting a hose down in the overflow would be easier if it was shallower.

Chris

[law086]

Keith - What are your plans in addressing humidity in the basement? That's A LOT of water!

Ron

[TCU Reefer]

Keith,

Glad to here that your project is finally becoming a reality. Can't wait to see progress from here on out.

Wish you still lived in the metroplex so I could come check it out in person.

Good luck!

Steve

[peterlin98]

Wow - Keith, this is going to be awesome. I like your idea of having multiple sumps. I cannot wait to see more pictures. Best of luck - it's going to be alot of work.

[BrokeColoReefer]

"work" he he he he i love that kind of work. looks like a AWESOME game plan.

[SERVO]

All RIGHT Beeotch! Now we's talkin :bum: (always thought the bum looked like a pimp)

I like everthing cept the isolated DSB? I guess I'll have to read Calfo's link. On the brightside,l you could have cool lagoon like effect with it. You could but a lot of little sand shifting diamond star gobies and yellowheaded jawfish into it!

I'm excited for you. This is the fun and frustrating stuff. How lucky are you to have a basement!!!!!

I don't care that my starboard is covered in coraline, I think black is the way to go! (I actually wanted seafoam green, but when I saw the price I got sticker shocked and had a SUPER deal on the white).

You may know this already, but the bulkhead fittings on those Rubbermaid bins will leak no matter what. Go out and get some epoxy and seal them shut before you start to plumb anything. Drill thru the plastic to add your own bulkheads to plumb into.

I would use two inch pipe all the way around for your drains. This way you will never have a ratelimiting step with your returns and you should be able to have your pump running full speed. With my Hammerhead, the three 1 inch drains can't keep up with the volume in the sump. If i open up the pump all of the way, it will run dry. Mind you, the volume is ALOT smaller than what you can have, but you shouldn't have an issue.

I am also concerned with the Humitidy and potential mold problems you may get. When I was in York with my 350gallon prop system that I had in the basement, I consistently had humidity that was 70% to 90%. Mold started to grow on the walls after 4-5 months. Since I was renting, I wasn't too concerned, but I began to keep the windows cracked during the day. This helped to some extent, but I only needed a year fix. You really need to plan this out before you do another thing.


You need to invest in this to check your temp and humidity

http://www.lightimpressionsdirect.com/servlet/OnlineShopping?DSP=50000&PCR=30000:170000:175000&IID=7878

I can't wait to see the finished product in person.


Good Luck Buddy!
Peace

[Oceangirl]

kwl,

Who did you decide to go with as the manufacture?

Mel

[surg_xero]

wow

[kwl1763]

Probably going with Aquarium Obssesed or Miracles.

I am worried about the humidity.

One thing is in this thresd that I will do:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=640757&perpage=25&pagenumber=5

I will for sure cover the ceilings and walls with clear heavy mil plastci to keep the water out.

I may still have to install an exhaust fan but that is not a major effort if i do. I'll make a longer response later. I'm in Singapore right now so access is limited.

[ksmith3637]

i had built mine in a fake wall in basement and humidity was high in the room.. but i also ran de-humidifier in main room.. but the more you seal it in the worse it will be.. some leaching out is not a bad thing... mainly just get the air moving.. i installed shuttered bi-fold doors on mine with fans point at it to circulate the air...

[ReefWaters]

Originally posted by kwl1763
I will for sure cover the ceilings and walls with clear heavy mil plastic to keep the water out.

Why not use FRP board? It would be more expensive but you cant accidentally tear it and it will look a lot better. As long as you seal the edges, no moisture will ever get through. You can even get similar panels to FRP that look like tile.

Good luck

[kwl1763]

Originally posted by ReefWaters
Why not use FRP board? It would be more expensive but you cant accidentally tear it and it will look a lot better. As long as you seal the edges, no moisture will ever get through. You can even get similar panels to FRP that look like tile.

Good luck

I may end up going that route but it will be a whole lot more expensive. Also where this is going is no beauty contest for sure. My fish room will be messy as it is so I'm not to worried about the appearence part at all. I am worried about sealing the edges, etc. Thanks for the suggestions!

[tsquad]

I'd scratch the fuge/remote DSB idea. If it's going to be truly BB, the fuge will not grow, as the nutrients will be way too low. Why would you try to grow macroalgae, when the point of a BB system is to not grow macro/microalgae? I don't know much about the remote DSB though, so I just tied the two together. Sounds like an awesome system though! Maybe instead of the fuge/DSB 100g tanks, why not make them prop/frag tanks?

[kwl1763]

If the fuge won't grow that's fine. It won't hurt anything and will be a place for pods to breed. Nothing bad can really come out of it. As far as the remote DSB. I'm not willing to get into a major debate here about it but suffice it to say that after talking to many many many people about it I decided to go that route.

It's not the only way for sure. If I ever have any issues with it taking it offline will be a snap but the extra diversity and NNR it adds is worth any risks in my opiinion.

[melev]

Plus you can put a lawn chair next to it, pop open a beer, kick your feet up and enjoy your lagoon. :D

[charlesjordanjr]

Originally posted by melev
Plus you can put a lawn chair next to it, pop open a beer, kick your feet up and enjoy your lagoon. :D

I'll bring the beer!:beer:

[SERVO]

Originally posted by melev
Plus you can put a lawn chair next to it, pop open a beer, kick your feet up and enjoy your lagoon. :D

I thought Hank Hill was the king not Marc; Yup, Yup, Yup:D

[kwl1763]

Well big update:


Drum roll please.............................................................................................. ..............................







a big dose of nothing has happened. I have been furniture shopping and fence building and all kinds of fun stuff. It is winding down though so I should be able to start making some progress soon enough. That work thing gets in the way also!

[melev]

At least start your RO unit, so you can save up some water. You're gonna need a lot. :D

Btw, I was doing a little research on the Merlin system. I noticed that membrane replacements are expensive ($90 each) and the sediment is $28. That means you'd pay almost as much for refills as you did for your system from Overstock.com

I also noticed that the FAQ page stated if you are making 10g per day instead of vast amounts, they recommend installing a few prefilters to protect the membranes. Did you happen to notice that fine print? :(

http://static.zoovy.com/merchant/theh2oguru/Merlin_FQA.pdf
http://www.airwaterice.com/product/1MERLIN

[kwl1763]

Ya but I'm actually using it for drinking and cooking and stuff also so I'll probably be using quite a bit and I did put a prefilter on.

The membrane only has to be replaced roughly every 3 years (and probably less with the extremely low TDS here) so ya it will be pretty pricey but on a very long lead time.

Also the way I mounted it it is sideways and currently I make about 50 galons at a time then shut it off at the supply side. This drains pretty much all the water out. Then a few sdays later I make more and toss the first 5 gallons or so and repeat. I talked with the manufacturer about it and they said that shouldn't cause any issues and asked about a prefilter and they said with a TDS like my tap they really didn't think it was neccessary but I put a cheap one on there anyway!

[NexDog]

Keith, frame in the basement or sheath the walls and ceiling in something before you start anything. I was paranoid about having 500 gallons of saltwater in a room of my new house and I'd more more anxious if it was in a basement. I decided to build my tank room like a bathroom - with plastic walls, and couldn't be happier with the result.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6031712#post6031712

http://japanreef.com/images/build/tankroom5.jpg

This is the stuff we used:

http://japanreef.com/images/build/wall.jpg

Looking forward to following this project. :)

[chainsaw5vent]

Originally posted by kwl1763
I may end up going that route but it will be a whole lot more expensive. Also where this is going is no beauty contest for sure. My fish room will be messy as it is so I'm not to worried about the appearence part at all. I am worried about sealing the edges, etc. Thanks for the suggestions!

i remember reading somewhere at r/c that mr.4000's problem with humidity helped in the eventual shut down of his tank.
you will need to have an exhaust/air exchange system that dumps the tank room air outside. low cost option on room now, super expensive issue to remedy.

nexdog has good idea. thick slick plastic for wall covering will help you in keeping the mold issue to a minimum.

[kwl1763]

That's a good idea NexDog I'll look into it. Chainsaw I know humitidy is going to be an issue and I'm thinking of many ways to deal with. There is a big difference between 450G and 4000G though. I figure I'll evaporate maybe 7-10 gallons a day max. I'm sure he was close to 100G per day. Totally different league!

[chainsaw5vent]

Originally posted by kwl1763
That's a good idea NexDog I'll look into it. Chainsaw I know humitidy is going to be an issue and I'm thinking of many ways to deal with. There is a big difference between 450G and 4000G though. I figure I'll evaporate maybe 7-10 gallons a day max. I'm sure he was close to 100G per day. Totally different league!


we had a bathroom sealed off for 3-4 months at my previous house because of the mold issue. steam, wet wall, etc. after they fixed the problem, we moved to a new location. much, much better. potential allergies, 1 less bathroom/shower with 3 boys that used the bathroom, etc.

7-10 evap is still alot if there is no immediate removal. you don't want your walls looking like a sweaty shower room. and developing mold.

[NexDog]

Yea, I don't mind if my walls look like a sweaty shower room now. :D

[kwl1763]

OK so I have been reading and asking around and there are plenty of options to deal with the whole humidity issue. Tell me which one you would do.

Option 1: Put up thick mil vapor barrier in the fish room. Ignore the actual issue and just let it be high humidity in there and drip off the walls. The barrier would include the ceiling. This would make sure no moisture gets on the ceiling or walls and would be the cheapest. The problem being that it could tear , etc defeating the whole purpose. It also means I'm not actually addressing the issue only making it where it doesn't harm the house.

option 2: Put up greenboard and waterproof paint everywhere including the ceiling. Basically a more elegant looking solution to the first option with the benefit of not ripping.

option 3: Put up some sort of plastic wall stuff in order to accomplish the same as number 2 but without the paint.

option 4: do 1 of the above and add a chiller and remove fans. What this will do is make the evaporation much less and shoould actually reduce humdity

option 5: Add some type of vent on a humidistat in the fish room (would I still need 1-3?)


Any specific suggestions would be great. This is the one issue causing me the greatest grief!


On a better note I'm going to start on the "stands" for the sumps next week and maybe even the stand for the tank which is going to be out of 2x6s

[Gudwyn]

I'd recommend an HRV for ventilation unless you plan to use A/C in the fish room.

My 225 (~280 gal water) evaporates 5-6 gal a day into a 3000sqft house and it was starting to grow mold and give my wife asthma attacks. The HRV cured it immediately.

If you are going to be heavily using A/C with high humidity outside, the HRV (or any exhaust fan) may make the humidity in the house worse. I don't know the weather in Atlanta.

An HVAC person can adjust your A/C to increase it's dehumidification performance (less tonnage operating over longer periods on lower airflow). At the extreme, you can use a heat pipe around the A/C coil to artificially force the dewpoint lower.

[melev]

Get the humidity out of the room Keith. I'm going to do that myself. Moisture affects more than walls. We have controllers and electrical outlets, timers and more. Moisture affects all of this as well.

ADT has to replace a faulty part in two days, that rusted internally as it is in that room. I'm going to move it out of the room permanently, and my focus is to come up with a ventilation system.

[SERVO]

You have potentially a big problem. With the outside humidity averaging 80% all year, it is a challenge to get the humidity down. Furthermore, the more you overdrive your home A/C unit, the quicker you are to develop problems. I think a combination would be your best option, however I am no expert on the subject. I agree with Marc and would try to get the humidity out of the room. I don't know if an HRV set up would work in Hotlanta. (Humidlanta LOL). I think that some type of vent with a chiller and possibly a ?dehumidifier? would be your best bet. Wish I could tell you something you don't already know:confused:

[Gudwyn]

servo, what do you mean by "the more you overdrive your home A/C unit, the quicker you are to develop problems"?

I know that oversizing the A/C results in removing to much sensible heat (temp change) and not enough latent heat (humidity change). You can shift the balance towards latent heat removal with a heat pipe or other adjustments like air flow.

Venting in hot humid air by using exhaust fans will cause the A/C to run more (because it's hot) and will bring down the humidity, but isn't ideal. Using an HRV to vent in cool humid air is even worse because the A/C won't turn on and you'll just get weepy walls.

So, yeah if it's hot and humid and you use A/C - an HRV is the wrong thing. Here it's cool and humid, and they work great.

[NexDog]

Well, I've built mine like I did because there is no solution. In summer it's an average of 35C with 100% humidity. I'm sure it'll be less humid outside than in the room but I'll just keep the AC unit on and let the water run down the nice shiny plastic walls. :D

[kwl1763]

Ya hot and humid would pretty much describe about 9 months out of the year year here. Cool and humid the other 3 so an HRV might not be the best option. The problem I'm running into is I can think of no good option. I'm thinking a chiller will be essential to limit evaporation. I may run a fan with a vent to the outside with a humidistat on it that will help some. Even though it is humid here it's less humid outside then in the fish room!

I may have to do a little design work to get the controllers and stuff in a lower humidity envrionment.

A dehumidifier is one option but the problem is they add a lot of heat which contributes to the problem.

I may call my friendly HVAC guy here and just run it by him to see what he thinks.

Marc when you come up with something let me know:p

[melev]

Oh great, put all the pressure on me will ya? :eek2: ;)

[scchase]

Oh the beauty of living in Colorado low humidity all year round. My 600g+ system has been set up for several weeks and not even a trace of condensation on the windows plus my house is getting to a relativly nice level of humidity in other words its not dry a as bone anymore.

[kwl1763]

Originally posted by scchase
Oh the beauty of living in Colorado low humidity all year round.

Ya and if it averaged about 20 degrees warmer it would be great! :D Growing up in Texas I can't stand the cold!

I think I will probably run some sort of fan on a humistat but also use some solution that involves plastic or waterproof paint in the room. I'll have to think on this one some more.

[UTArmadillo]

What about a dehumidifier? Couldn't you drain it either to the outside or the plumbing. How about something like this on ebay (I have no idea if it is good or what but looks like about the right size)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Soleus-9-000-BTU-Cooler-Heater-Fan-Dehumidifier-New_W0QQitemZ6014366348QQcategoryZ79624QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Armadillo

Wait, maybe something a little bigger:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dehumidifier_W0QQitemZ7563675114QQcategoryZ42912QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[EnglishRebel]

I am following this thread with interest as I will be building a basement equipment room (in the humid Carolinas). Winter (3 months) would not be a problem as I have to run a humidifier on my central air just to keep the RH above 20%. Summer it a different problem as you will have.
I guess in the summer you could put a glass cover over the main tank thus forcing the water loss to the equipment room. What about a hood of some sort over the sump with a small fan that pumps the humid air outside the house. Sure you would have to cool the make up air but you could do this in the confines of the equipment room if it's buttoned up tight.
By drawing the humid air directly off the exposed surface of the sump you could reduce the amount of air that is needed as opposed to venting the whole room. This method works for fumes in an industrial environment (i.e. contain the problem at its source instead of letting the problem pollute the larger environment giving you a larger problem).
I could image a three sided enclosure around the sump/fuge with maybe a hinged door on the front that when closed would have a small gap to allow make up air to enter the hood and when open allows for maintenance.
Supplement this with a small dehumidifier to take care of the smaller rise in humidity in the room and the problem is reduced to a manageable level.
Any thoughts?

[BrianPlankis]

I follow a lot of these big tank threads as I want to have a 500g+ system someday in my next house. I constantly see this humidity issue come up and the answer seems to be different each time.

I have ZERO experience in AC and heating issues, so excuse the newbie question, but couldn't you just install an exhaust fan hooked up to a humidistat to push the air out of the tank room and make sure the air couldn't "backtrack" when the fan turns off? That way it wouldn't matter if the air outside was more humid or hot, you are pushing your air out. You could then make some vents, or maybe another fan to pull in less humid air from another portion of the house to replace the air going outside?

Brian

[melev]

If you button up the tanks to trap the humidity, you also prevent oxygen exchange in the water, which our animals need.

Using a vent fan to suck out humid air will autmatically draw in fresh air from the rest of the house from any openings available, as long as the room isn't sealed tight.

[Poppy828]

Not owning a large tank, but having a construction background in the commercial field, I may be able to help with the room construction.

I would use 4mil poly (vapor barrier) over some r11 insulation. On top of the 4milpoly, use FRP panels. These types of panels will come in 4x8 or even 4x10 sheets. They are moisture resistant and will be very easy to wipe off any salt spray or whatever may hit it. Between these sheets you can use some type of bead to seal that slot. There are several different types to choose depending on your liking.

I would also use some type of air exchanger within this room if not also within the basement. Humidity will reek havoc on everything in your home. Solve the issue now before it is too late. I do not know of any specific type or brands, but we did a remodel in an office building that had a 500g tank that did not have the proper moisture relieving items needed. We had to gut the entire space and start over. It was 12,400 sq ft also if that puts this in perspective.

Hope that helps,

Todd

[kwl1763]

Thanks for the input Todd. I think that is how I will go. It will be pretty pricey (the FRP) but the peace of mind will be worth it! I will also most likely use an exhaust type fan hooked to a humidistat.

Time to start researching which one!

[Poppy828]

You're Welcome. If you were closer, I could get the panels for you. Good luck with this. Keep us informed.

Todd

[kwl1763]

Ok I got a little farther today.

I started actually designing how the sumps will flow into each other etc. The first design I came up with allows me to really easily control different rates of flow, disconnect one section, etc. So it is super super flexible.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/Slide1.JPG

They are on casters so I can move them around if I need. The drains will be ~60" high so that should be adequate to gravity feed the tallest sump. The problem I came up with here is the skimmer placement. I would have to build a really tall skimmer stand to get it even with the first sump. And with the skimmer itself being ~60 inches tall it would be almost to the ceiling. I would have to build some steps to get up there, etc. Major pain.

So I rethought and went much simpler. This takes away most of my flow control (even though I could build bypass loops around the refugium) but makes it much easier from the skimmer standpoint. I could still easily disconnect with unions and either run tubing or put a new sump in if I ever have a problem it just won't be quite as versatile. Do you see any potential issues with it?

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/Slide1b.JPG

I think I will end up going with something like this. The simplicity it brings is worth the control sacrifice I think.

Also the return sump is off the picture and the drains will have a bypass to there for sure so if nothing else I can take these three sumps totally out of the loop and still run the system with just the return sump if necessary. It's also about 6" lower then the other sumps so when the return pump is turned off all the excess will drain into the return section. Maybe I should make them all level so if the water goes above the bulkheads (when the return pump turns off. I would have to overflow a lot more before a flood happens? Thoughts?

The other issue I'm contemplating is pipe size. I will have 3 1.5" drains on the tank. The run from the tank to the sumps will be ~20ft with a roughly 2ft drop. I'm thinking of consolidating the 3 drains into one 2 inch pipe to run the 20ft and have the 2" pipe drain into the skimmer sump. I'm only going to use an Iwaki 55 for the return pump so only ~1500GPH. Would it be significantly better just to go ahead and run three seperate 1.5" down the wall and have all three dump?

The other issue is from sump to sump. If I choose option B should I just go ahead and have 3 1.5" bulkheads on each side so I don't have to worry about bottlenecking or will 2 be sufficient?

Off to research fans and FRP

[kwl1763]

On the topoff front I am looking at stacking an RO Sump on top of a saltwater holding sump.

Here is a quick and dirty picture.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Nov_05/New_Tank/RoomnEquip/topoff.JPG

The cycling topoff referred to is stolen from weatherson's TOTM this month!

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/totm/images/ro_anticycle_diagram.jpg

I thought it was an awesome idea so your RODI isn't constantly cycling on and off. Now I have to look at solenoids and how I can make a triple redundant one. Suggestions as always are appreciated.

[kwl1763]

Wow no comments? It's not like you guys to be unopinionated!

Anyway I think I have found a good toppoff solution for fairly cheap. I already have two of the double switches from here.

http://www.autotopoff.com/products/S/index.htm

I think I'll add 2 solinoids and have it where both float switches must be on for anything to happen. That way if one solinoid fails I'm safe and either both solinoids or all 4 float switches would have to fail at the same time in order for the whole thing to fail.

In fact I guess I'll need 4 solinoids and 2 more of the double float switches because I'l need one hooked up to the RODI input and one on the drain to return sump from the RODI resevoir. So not as cheap as I thought but very fail resistant!

Now I have to start designing the "chamber" so it won't cycle on and off all the time.

[EnglishRebel]

Originally posted by melev
If you button up the tanks to trap the humidity, you also prevent oxygen exchange in the water, which our animals need.

I agree Marc but wouldn't the oxygen exchange happen in the sump which would be completely open? If you had a large enough surface area with plenty of water motion (i.e. turbulence) this should provide oxygenation.

[melev]

That would be possible, but then again a large open surface area adds to the humidity of the room. And typically you don't want a lot of surface turbulence in your sump due to noise, microbubbles and other issues.

Keith, I had a link sent to me in a PM that might help you with the humidity situation. I'll forward it to you.

On the sumps, I like Option B myself.

[kwl1763]

Ok made a huge order from Savko today for all the bulkheads and flexible PVC and unions, etc. I also picked up the wood to start building the rolling stands for the sumps. I'll actually start the build tommorow.

I also ordered 3 lumenmax reflectors today so I need 3 ballasts, sockets and 5 lamps and I'll be set in the lighting department.

I'm going to order ~250 of live rock to be delivered the week before christmas. I have to get the sumps connected and going and the skimmer tested and going by then!

[derrikd]

cant wait to see more

[McGinnis]

Keith,
I am glad to hear you are back in the reef circuit again! I cannot wait to see the progression of this tank, if it is anywhere near as good as your previous tanks it will be amazing! I agree with Marc in regards to your sump designs, the second one just seems easier to move and access in the event something goes wrong. The way I see it you could easily transfer contents and wheel in a new contain, with no sweat!

[melev]

Keith, if you followed my thread last week, we had a decent discussion about humidity. Armed with that knowledge I went to Home Depot to see what kind of vent fans they had. You basically want to know how many CFM and Sones you want. The lower the number of sones, the quieter it is. There was a nice $20 vent fan that would have woke the dead, and the one I liked was $118 of course. I had an A/C guy here last week, and he told me I needed 50CFM in my fish room. I'm going to go with 100CFM because I plan to pipe that moist air out some PVC and out of my home and figure the additional resistance will reduce the rating the mfg gave it.

I may post the model # of the one I like, and then wait for you to find me a better deal. You always score in that department. :D

[kwl1763]

I need like a 500 cfm then. I did follow that discussion with great interest of course!

[melev]

Oh good. I didn't know if you'd had the time. Since you'd been talking about it, I wanted to give you a summation.

I figure you'll find something at a bargain at Overstock.com and if you do, I want to buy it that way too. Do you plan to hook it up to a humidistat? I saw a link to one online last week (from somebody's thread) and it was $36. I'd have to go find it though. :(

[kwl1763]

Santa came early for me!

Today I came home to 4 big boxes! The wife wasn't so excited but I was because I knew exactly what it was!

3 Lumenmax reflectors

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/December_05/lumenbox.jpg



http://kwl1763.com/Reef/December_05/3viewlum.jpg

These things are a beast. 22" square


The only issue I have is illustrated below. This is the place where the mogul socket mounts.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/December_05/reflgap.jpg

The way it is designed If I bought normal mounts and sockets the bulb would start just inside the reflector I think. This would cause it to be off center which I'm guessing is not optimal. I could buy these extended ones.

http://www.sunlightsupply.com/aquarium/products/socket_assembly.shtml

but they are like $40. I really like to avoid that if possible!

Anyway I'll continue in another post.

[kwl1763]

The other thing I recieved was a whole box of goodies from Savko!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/December_05/openbox.jpg


There were Sch80 bulkheads

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/December_05/bulkheads.jpg

A dozen 1.5" unions with valves

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/December_05/uvalves.jpg

Strainers for the sump bulkheads

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/December_05/strainers.jpg

And 50' of 1.5" flex PVC

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/December_05/flex.jpg

Getting closer. I hope to have the sumps at least connected together this weekend to where I can at least start getting things going. I hope to order some live rock just after the holidays and get it going. That means I have to have the whole sump assembly and skimmer working and tested before the 22nd. Unfortunatly I have 2 business trips in between now and then so it's aggressive but that's the goal.

[melev]

I hope you post lots of pictures of that skimmer, and I really hope it works as good as intended when it was first created.

All your new goodies.... it really is exciting. I hope you'll keep updating this thread regularly because it is so cold outside I'm going to need some entertainment for a while. ;)

[McGinnis]

Marc,
Here in Vermont this morning it was 4 degrees! I cannot imagine Texas being anywhere near as miserable as that!

Keith,
I am really enjoying reading this thread, as I fully hope to one day be able to have a really good sized tank, maybe not as big as this one will be but of similarly larger size. Does this Savko place have good deals on your plumbing supplies?

[lovetoreef]

well, i hope the skimmer does as well as it was made to do also :)


as for the weather, it was -2 in amarillo texas this morning!!

great job so far keith - i will be watching this thread and hope all things go great - thanks and let me know how the skimmer works.

gm

[law086]

Keith,

With sump layout B, do you really think draining from sump to sump would work well with the inlet and outlets all being at the same height? That's really the advantage I see with option A. I really like your setup and I'm thinking about something similar in my next system.

Ron

[kwl1763]

Ron that's the thing I'm a little worried about also. If it was only a few hundred GPH I would be worried but it will be ~1200 so it could be an issue. I'm thinking I'll be OK but not sure. I need to measure and see if I can boost each one by like 3" or so as I think even that little bit will help.

As a last resort I can always throttle the return back a bit.

[vair]

For humidity, I added a unit like these heat/air exchangers and it's great.http://www.lifebreath.com/life.htm

As a side benefit the air in my house has a more noticeable "clean" to it.

Dave

[SERVO]

AWESOME:D

[melev]

For the past two nights, it has been 19F. Yesterday, over 200 accidents were reported, due to icy conditions. I didn't even drive yesterday, but I did walk over to my closest LFS to a visit. :D

Got the owner to close up and give me a lift home. :lol: It was too cold to walk home. (He was going to close up to get a cup of coffee anyway, so the ride was well-timed.)

I had to strip a floor today, and driving in the 31F weather wasn't a big deal until you hit those patches of ice. One guy almost side-swiped me, and I had to be careful myself.

Did you do anything else today, Keith? Come on, we need daily updates. :)

[kwl1763]

Daily what am I melev or something? :)

OK yesteday I went to tractor supply company and bought heavy duty casters for the "stands" of the sumps and went and bought some SPAR polyurethane to cover the wood. I hope to get those bulit and done this weekend. I'm going to try to cut everthing and pur the first coat of spar on tonight.

It's cold here also but not that cold. The lows are right at freezing. With highs close to 40. I was supposed to go to New York Monday. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will get cancelled and I can get some more done.

The next steps after I get the sumps all hooked up are to recheck and tighten everything on the skimmer and then fire it up. The problem is I have to have a tone of water to do that as it holds almost 15 gallons by itself that will totally drain when shut off!

I may go ahead and order some live rock for delivery on the 19th or 20th which will get my behind in gear. If I don't I won't order until after the holidays.

[McGinnis]

Keith,
I really cannot wait to see the sump setup. As Ron had stated above, I think your only concern would be that the sumps are close to the same level. I have something going right now, on a much smaller scale that is similar to what you are planning. My refugium and my return are two separate containers connected by a bulkhead, and so far it seems to be working great with having good flow through them both.

Marc, I know what you mean about not daring to venture out...still I really am stunned by your dedication to walk to the LFS! Hopefully it was worth the trip.

[chainsaw5vent]

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6242766#post6242766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by McGinnis
[B]Marc,
Here in Vermont this morning it was 4 degrees! I cannot imagine Texas being anywhere near as miserable as that!


are scooby and shaggy shaking in the cold air??
here in socal it was in the mid sixties :bigeyes: :clown:

[merlock116]

setup of that first plumbing design with all the bypasses would be a hassle but great if you had the room.

if i were you, i'd go with the second pic you posted, but with a bypass from the drain directly to the sump, so you can work on the dsb, fuge, and skimmer while they're offline.

[kwl1763]

Well I did a combo of both. I did more along the lines of the first. I don't think I'll build in all the bypass stuff though. The more I think about the more I think even If i did need to take one offline with the unions and some flexpipe premade it would literally be like a 2 minute job to bypass if I ever need to.

Got a ton done today. I'll post pictures in a bit.

[kwl1763]

OK here is the promised pics. I finally got about 8 hours in yesterday of good "tank time" so here was the result.

After debating with myself about the bulkhead to bulkhead connections I just didn't like it for a couple reasons.

1) the drains would have more "back pressure" due to them being connected so that could be an issue

2) The more bulkheads the more chances of one leaking

3) With them level I would have to put them at least 1 ft apart in order to get the union/valve in place

I didn't like any of those. The sacrifice was I had to do a little more difficult "stand" building and my skimmer will basically be touching the ceiling. I can live with both of those.

So without further ado here are the stands. The need a couple more coats of polyurethane and they'll be good to go. The middle height one is still waiting on it's casters in it's picture.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Dec_05/New_Tank/shortcart.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Dec_05/New_Tank/midstand.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Dec_05/New_Tank/tallstand.jpg

The last one looks like I spotlit it for the shot. pretty funny!

The next thing was to drill the bulkheads. With these heavy duty bulkheads they need a 2 7/8" hole. Well after going to home depot and looking at the prices of hole saws that big I decided to pick this up for my Dremel for $12.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Dec_05/New_Tank/dremel.jpg

Fortunately bulkheads are pretty forgiving so the hole doesn't have to be perfect (or even good as long as it's not to big) If you need a perfect circle I can't recommend it but it worked for what I had to do.

Here was the result.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Dec_05/New_Tank/bulkhole.jpg

With that result good thing it didn't need to be perfect!

[kwl1763]

I drilled 2 bulkhead holes in 2 of the sumps and sealed the bottom bulkheads that come already in the troughs. I have heard many stories of them leaking so I went ahead and siliconed them up. If I need a bulkhead on the bottom I'll just drill my own.

Here is a shot of the bulkheads installed with strainers already screwed in.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Dec_05/New_Tank/top2sumps.jpg

Now a couple overall picks. This is basically how they will be setup when running.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Dec_05/New_Tank/topsetup.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Dec_05/New_Tank/sumpbottom.jpg

That's about it for now. I'm satisfied with the progress I made this weekend. I'll have water in the sump by next weekend.

I have yet to decide if I'm going to order live rock before the holidays or wait until after because I'll be gone for a week and a half.

[law086]

Nice work and thanks for the pics!

[SERVO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6224328#post6224328 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Keith, if you followed my thread last week, we had a decent discussion about humidity. Armed with that knowledge I went to Home Depot to see what kind of vent fans they had. You basically want to know how many CFM and Sones you want. The lower the number of sones, the quieter it is. There was a nice $20 vent fan that would have woke the dead, and the one I liked was $118 of course. I had an A/C guy here last week, and he told me I needed 50CFM in my fish room. I'm going to go with 100CFM because I plan to pipe that moist air out some PVC and out of my home and figure the additional resistance will reduce the rating the mfg gave it.

I may post the model # of the one I like, and then wait for you to find me a better deal. You always score in that department. :D

Leave it to this hobby to turn us into total nerds! I'm learning things that I never in a million years thought that I would know. BTW Marc, you people down here need to take winter driving lessons. Everyone needs to take their Chevy and Ford pick ups up to Minn, MI, OH, PA and NY for some lake effect snow driving lessons and some classes on the laws of physics and how your car becomes a projectile when you slam on your breaks over ice. Gheesh. They're just as bad in Atlanta from what I hear.

So Keith, when you mentioned that you discovered a cheap solution for your top off, you do know that water is cheaper in GA than in TX:p .

Things are comming along. When I drilled out my Rubbermaids, the power died on my drill so I had to hand cut the rest. PITA!!! My forearm still aches! Keep up the updates. BTW, I think that you will like your tort again;) .

[McGinnis]

Nice work Keith! How sturdy are your brackets? And what was the height of the upper one? I thought you were concerned about them being too high for the skimmer at one poine. Keep us posted.

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6266260#post6266260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO
Leave it to this hobby to turn us into total nerds! I'm learning things that I never in a million years thought that I would know. BTW Marc, you people down here need to take winter driving lessons. Everyone needs to take their Chevy and Ford pick ups up to Minn, MI, OH, PA and NY for some lake effect snow driving lessons and some classes on the laws of physics and how your car becomes a projectile when you slam on your breaks over ice. Gheesh. They're just as bad in Atlanta from what I hear.

:lol: That post just made my day.

<b>Keith</b> - your new sumps look great. Those racks are rugged!

For now, put your camera in Auto mode and use the flash. You'll get crisp shots every time. ;)

[jnarowe]

Hey there! Melev (Marc) sent me to find you. I am in a similar stage as you and having a terrible time with the pre-installed bulkheads on my Rubbermaid bins. I cannot find a FPT fitting that will match the outside. I can use a MPT fitting, but that reduces the flow. Marc said you are just drilling your own and sealed the original ones, which I see in your thread. Seems like a waste but maybe that's the way to go. Comments?

And BTW, where did you find 100g tubs for $50???

I have a couple of points to make regarding your project: First, I originally was planning to use the FRP sheets but they were very expensive and actually not "waterproof" in the sense that water can seep through the seams. I decided on using yacht bilge paint and although the application process was brutal, the finished product is sweet. With foamed electrical boxes and an exterior steel door with rubber seales, my fish room can hold water.

I am putting my tub-to-tub connections down low rather than near the rim to create a large baffle system out of the tubs themselves. You can also have your overflow land in a bucket, which will force the bubbles to the surface before the water moves to the next section.

As far as overflow goes, I have two 2" and one 1-1/2" that goes directly into the skimmer. I am using one Sequence for a return with a 1-1/2" main line so there is plenty of excess drainage on the display.

The hole drilling thing is a nightmare. I saw online an attachment for a router to make holes but many of the holes are smaller than that attachment can make. I have had a combo hole saw for years that has 6 or 7 different sizes to choose from, and you should try to find one. It is a main drill head with circle grooves and the hole blades press and turn to lock in. It is not stout enough to drill thick acrylic, but it works well on things like the Rubbermaid tubs, wood, etc.

I am routing the slots for my overflow right now, and it is murder. The slots look so bad I won't even post photos of them. I am not happy with them but as a friend who visited last night said, "no one is going to know". (EXCEPT FOR ME!) Maybe I should have used a jig saw.

PM any time for project discussion!

[jnarowe]

BTW, I meant to mention that I have received those Savko boxes too, and that is a lot of fun but, some of those items are cheaper at Lowes. In particular unions and union ball valves as well as check valves. Lowes does also have the flexible PVC, but it does cost more than Savko.

[jnarowe]

If you haven't already built your overflow, here is an interesting overflow comb (http://cgi.ebay.com/OVERFLOW-COMB-by-AquaMedic_W0QQitemZ7734823241QQcategoryZ3212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) that I am using. I bought it from this ebay auction also. price is really good, and these things are cool because you can remove them for cleaning rather than the yoga position required to get under the euro-bracing.

I think you could re-think the refugium/frag grow out tank along the lines that a refugium requires light in the 5000K to 6500K range and a frag grow-out tank would require light in the 10000K to 20000K range. These two items thrive in slightly different environments, and with all the tubs you are using, you can easily separate the two. Generally refugium/DSB combos are common because the DSB doesn't require a great amount of light and it combines 2 messy items into 1 tub to make clean up a bit easier. IMO a frag grow-out tank really should be able to take advantage of food in suspension but not have to deal with coral eating critters and coral-to-coral competition.

After reading your thread, I am guessing that you are still out-of-town so i look forward to your next project update!

[tangreef68]

cool tank

[kwl1763]

Well I'm back from a tropical week in Dallas. Played golf in shorts twice as it was 80 degrees!!! Not so nice back here as it is in the 40s and raining. We actually had a pretty bad ice storm a couple weeks back. It was crazt driving to Texas. We left real early in the mornign and when we crossed the Georgia/Alabama border it was 16 degrees. By the time we hit Texas ~10 hours after that it was in the 70s so pretty extreme considering we were going straight west (not South or North)

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply but let me address everyone's points first then a non-eventful update.

Mcginnis, the upper one right now is roughly 18" high. I am still concerned with the skimmer height. I think i will buy one of the shorter 50G rubbermaids for the DSB part and put the high stand in the middle and the middle height stand on the top skimmer section. I went ahead and build the skimmer stand 28" tall. This makes the whole thing ~7' 9" so I can still fit in an 8' ceiling with a little bit to spare. I'll have to play with it a bit but I think it's OK. The stands are pretty darn sturdy. I have no worries about them at all. I already filled one tub up for water testing and there were no issues on the tall stand. I even rolled it around and it was solid as a rock.

jnarowe, I had talked to several people who told me not to even waste my time with those so I just siliconed mine. I agree that it is a little crazy but it's pretty cheap and easy to silicone them and create your own and not have to worry about it!

Those tubs were at Tractor Supply Company here and $53. The price varies throughout the country but should be under $70 anywhere!

Very interested in the bildge paint idea. Anymore details on brand application, etc. would be great. Did you put it over regular sheetrock? I have also pretty much ruled out the FRP due to the cost and seam issue. Some type of paint seems to be the best solution for both cost and effectiviness. I'm also interested in the foamed electrical box idea even though I will most likely mount the box outside the room and just run a few plugs into the room.


I will most likely have the overflow fall into a bucket to help with the microbubbles but I figure by the time it runs through all the sumps it should be a non issue.

I plan on using 6500 VHOs (already have everything I need from previous stuff) over the refuge/growout. The corals will grow perfectly fine in 6500. They may not look as good but they love the light. The cheato will do fine also. I think of it a little in the opposite way as far as the corals go. Pods and critters grow and multiply in the DSB and refugium areas which feed the corals. Actually the growout will have a pass at the water after the DSB and fuge before the main tank does so it should have the most available. I could also easily target feed that area if need so I'm not to worried. It's SPS anyway so the chances of not having enough food are far outweighted by the chance of having to many nutrients available.

The overflow comb is a good idea. I'll keep that in mind.

Quick update. I've done a little more work. The skimmer is all plumbed up now. I have to get one more part for the collection cup drain. I hope to actually run it with one of the sumps tommorow. I hope to have some people out to hang all the drywall, create the wall, etc, etc by the end of this month.

[jnarowe]

The 50g tubs are $80 here. Could be shipping cross country though.

I used Interlux BilgeKote and mixed 1:1 Gray & White. I applied it over green board without a primer, but I would highly recommend that you use a good grade primer/sealer. Possibly Kilz would work. The Interlux primer is very expensive but the green board soaks up the BilgeKote like a sponge. My first 1-1/2g were essentially primer. you can buy it at West Marine or virtually any marine store. You can PM for a quote as I sell marine stuff at cost+ 10%. It would probably be easier for you to get it locally though. Believe me, the surface is completely sealed for longer than you will be alive and it is much cheaper and effective than FRP.

I think you might be able to use regular sheet rock, but I chose not to take the chance. As far as foaming plugs go, all tank specific plugs in my tank room will be weather-proof surface mount, but since I already had existing house plugs I just foamed around all of them including the ones for the opposite side of the wall. That is an important part of sound control.

[kwl1763]

Well I setup everything with the skimmer. Here are the pics.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/full.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/full2.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/closebottom.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/closetop.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/toptee.jpg

[melev]

SO?! Does it leak? Does it work? WHERE'S THE WATER?! Come on, you need to christen that thing. Slam a bottle of copepods against the side of it already. :D

[kwl1763]

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/sideview.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/sumppipe.jpg



Unfortunatly when water testing tonight there was a very small leak in one of the beckett tubes on the connection near the bottom. I sealed it with some weld on 16 so that should take care of it but I have to wait until tommorow to see.

So impatient Marc!! Ya I'm anxious also. Once this is done it will be my biggest plumbing hurdle completed and checked off! The rest of the stuff is easy. I thought you leak checked this thing by the way!

[melev]

No, I had to get my huge sump built first. I finally got it done, but the skimmer had been picked up. Since it probably holds 30g of water in it when running, I had to have a sump large enough to hold all the exiting water (which is pretty much everything above the ballvalve exit).

[kwl1763]

Ya as you can see I insterted the ball valve unions so I could close them both, fill up the skimmer check for leaks, etc. Then I'l open them as I turn the pump on so I won't have any massive suck down in the tank or any issues from having just air in the skimmer when I fire it up. Unfortunatly I didn't make it to that point :(

[jnarowe]

Holy Cow batman, that's a monster!

Question: I noticed your bulkheads are installed with the nut on the inside. Is there any particular reason why you did it that way?

[kwl1763]

Simple actually, I ordered female threaded on one side and slip on the other and threaded strainers. That is simply the way stuff fits! So now I have a slip connection to the outside. I just made sure the washer was on the inside!

So no particular reason and I really don't think it matters one way or the other!

[jnarowe]

OK, I understand. I just thought it was strange looking and might be more difficult to snug one up once the tank is full.

I have heard rumblings from other reefers to only use slip fittings but I can't figure out why. Maybe they have a higher probability of leaking? When I bought my tank, to move it I had to saw out all the fittings which is a bummer because most of them can't be re-used. It seems to me that if I use all threaded fittings and I need to change something, I can still use the same bulkhead. of course that requires using an adapter for pipe which adds another connection, but lets say I need to clean a line out, I could close the valve, remove the line, and re-install it. Any comments?

[melev]

Threaded fittings have smaller internal diameter.

[jnarowe]

Yeah, I realized that after the post, as I was having problems with that and was unable to get fittings to thread over the Rubbermaid BHs. It turns out that is some proprietary thread that can't be matched locally. Good point.

[kwl1763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6420850#post6420850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
It turns out that is some proprietary thread that can't be matched locally.

That's very odd. I wonder what their reasoning is for that? Basically it can only be used for a plug and that is it. Maybe they don't want you hooking it up to plumbing and then something happen and you sue them. After all it is designed to be a static livestock water trough!

[jnarowe]

Yeah, I think the bulkhead primarily serves as a drain if you want to empty the tank and clean or move it. Typically water would flow in from a hose or pipe and just be filled occassionally as needed.

I also thought that threaded BHs were larger to compensate for the threaded part, but I definitely see the difference between Schedule 40 and 80, and if you are mixing, which I am, that throws it off a bit I am sure.

[kwl1763]

I'm having a heck of a time withthe skimmer. There is a little leak each time I fill it up a little higher. Last night I just got out the silicone and globbed it on literally every joint and seam. Hopefully that will fix it and tonight I can fire this bad boy up! One of the built in bulkeads of the rubbermades is leaking :(

What a pain. I drained it and siliconed it with so much that it's crazy but hopefully that will fix it.

Hopefully I'll have a few more progress pics this weekend.

[jnarowe]

I am taking advice on my Rubbermaids and removing all the original bulkheads. I am re-drilling the holes to fit 1-1/2" BHs and then adding a second one. It's not easy to re-drill, but once it is done correctly, there should be little problem with leaking using the sched. 80 BHs.

[law086]

Keith - I have two questions for you if I may:

1. I like the idea of a remote DSB and am considering such a setup for my next system (in general, I'm a SSB fan), however I recall reading an article by Dr. Ron were he stated that a _remote_ DSB wasn't the best idea. I don't believe he got into any perticulars and now I obviously can't ask him. So, my question is, do you have any thoughts on the remote part being non-optimal? When thinking about it, I couldn't think of a good reason why it would matter if the DSB wasn't part of the display.

2. Being that you'll only have rear access to the display tank, do you have any thoughts on access to the front of the tank given the 36" width? Do you think you'll have any issues? My next setup will also be accessable from one side and I'm trying to figure out if I should go 36" or 48". I'm wondering if you choose 36" for this very reason.

Thanks!
Ron

[kwl1763]

Welcome to the crazyness Ron!

On point 1, I think ideally if you believe entirely in the whole DSB theory then the tank is the ideal place becasue there is more waste and biodiversity there. However the downside of that is that there are potential issues with them and how would you ever deal with one if something went bad and it was in your display? (I have one in a 20G that has been up for over 2 years now with no issues BTW) For me it's worth the tradeoff to run it remotely. There is no doubt as nitrate reducers they work briliiantly remote. See Calfo's DSB in a bucket thread!

Point 2) I plan on leaving a 10" space above the tank on the viewable sides so that I can access it to scrape the glass, etc. This will be covered up with some type of molding that can either be easily removed or "folded up" to let me get in there. I think it's super important to have as much access as possible. I choose 36 for 2 reasons. One is simply that is what fits well where I'm putting it. The other is the cost to go to 38" was very significant and would require bracing other then eurobracing which I didn't want!

[law086]

Thanks Keith.

1. Do you have a link to the DSB in a bucket thread? I'd love to read it.

2. I'm really thinking in my setup I won't have any front access. My girlfriend and I are both looking for a very clean looking wall. Very simple molding around the tank and that's it. A blank wall otherwise. I'm trying to figure out if 36" would be OK for me. I guess I'd have to lay across the top of the tank and use tongs :-)

Ron

[kwl1763]

Lots if good stuff in this one!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109

[law086]

Keith - that thread really clears things up. I had no idea such real-world examples were out there. Thanks man!

Ron

[jnarowe]

Ditto. That was an interesting thread to read for sure. Again the DSB or Not to DSB arguement...or even remote DSB instead of refugium. I may do a 50g RDSB just to try it out, especially if I can fill it with aragonite and help buffer my tank.

[kwl1763]

Well some good news and some potentially not good news.

Good news first being the always optimist that I am.

The skimmer is officially leak free and I actually filled it up and ran it! Here's a pic.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/runningfull.jpg

The potential issue is that the bubbles are a) very big and b) not very dense.

Now this is in fresh water (and about 50 degrees) which I know is different but it should be this different should it? I never had a huge beckett before so maybe it will be way different in saltwater? Any help would be appreciated. Below I'm attaching several picks so you can see the bubble size and the lack of density in the chambers.

What do you think? Issue or no issue?



http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/fromsump.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/mainchamber.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/mainchamber.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/centertube.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/btube.jpg

[jnarowe]

WOW! That thing is a freakin' monster! Bubble size is an important issue but I don't know how to help you. There are other threads dealing with it and I would contact Dale who is on a thread starting with "5' skimmer..." He knows a lot about bubble size.

[Chrisrush]

You are trying to compare apples to oranges Keith. Running that skimmer in freshwater and 50 degrees is only a good indicator of leaks and getting the manufacturing oils off the skimmer.

Can't wait to see that thing filled to the brim with microbubbles. At least it doesn't leak though.

Chris

[prostaff]

My skimmer test with freshwater produced the same results. Saltwater is a lot denser than fresh and should produce much finer bubbles

[chainsaw5vent]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6449196#post6449196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by prostaff
My skimmer test with freshwater produced the same results. Saltwater is a lot denser than fresh and should produce much finer bubbles

true. my skimmer did the same. the micro bubbles won't show up until the correct salinity level is achieved.

[McGinnis]

Keith,
The system is coming along really well! I cannot wait to see the progression continue. In reference to your issue with your skimmer, I am not an expert, but I freshwater tested mine as well and saw exactly what you are seeing now. Placed it into the sump, and ran it....what a difference, the bubbles were really dense and very fine. So just hold off on worrying too much about the setup.

[eugimon]

the higher density of saltwater allows for finer bubbles. big bubbles normal for freshwater.

[ReefWaters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6458929#post6458929 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eugimon
the higher density of saltwater allows for finer bubbles. big bubbles normal for freshwater.

Thats why no one runs a skimmer on a freshwater tank....:D

[kwl1763]

No I know it would be different and wouldn't "work" I just didn't remember how dramatically different it was. It's been over 2 years since I've tested one in freshwater. I fired it up with saltwater yesterday and oh my. Dense, tiny bubbles! Really, really awesome. I'll post some pics tonight!!!!

[kwl1763]

Ok here are the pics. This thing is a beast. I can't wait until it's actually skimming something!!

Here is a full shot in 1.020 saltwater

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/salttest/full.jpg


A closer shot of the tubes. As you can see it is dense. You can't see into the chamber at all!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/salttest/tubes.jpg

A shot of the bottom. As you can see the bubbles are still thick at the bottom. The outputs are over a foot above the bottom and point up so this thing really sucks!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/salttest/lowchamber.jpg


I tried to get a shot of the swirling of the bubbles but it doesn't really work in a still shot. Still gives you a little idea.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/salttest/bubbleflow.jpg


Here is the top with the foam (even though there is nothing to skim)

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/salttest/foam.jpg


And the collection neck.


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/salttest/cup.jpg


I'm ready for rock now. This thing is awesome!

[kwl1763]

The other project I completed today was making a "rock rack" for the sumps to cure/cook the LR in. I will order this week.

I did this to allow 2 layers of rock with plenty of circulation around and under both layers.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/rockrackfront.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/rockrackside.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/rockracktop.jpg

I didn't glue anything and it's not perfectly square but it will work just fine!

[jnarowe]

great shots of the skimmer. it looks sweet! do yourself a favor and make sure to cap all the PVC pipes!!!

[jnarowe]

PS. Do you have detailed plans of your skimmer?

[SERVO]

That skimmer is a beast! You are going to get a TON of skimmate from it! I can't wait till you are ready for me to send some corals home with you!

[lovetoreef]

keith -

sorry to hear you had so much trouble getting the leaks taken care of - i knew there would be some work to be done - just no that much - but, that is a sight to behold!! i hope it kicks butt for you :)

gerard

[prostaff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6464439#post6464439 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
great shots of the skimmer. it looks sweet! do yourself a favor and make sure to cap all the PVC pipes!!!
Jonathan
Is there a special reason to cap the pipes? I am doing the same thing in my display and I wanted to leave them open to allow critters, pods etc to find shelter and multiply

[Saltwater Guy]

that skimmer is the ****!!!!

[jnarowe]

prostaff: Sounds good but very bad things can also find the protection of pipes and get majorly out-of-control.

Check out Oregon Reef Worm Incident (http://www.oregonreef.com/index.html) as one such example. I will never put open pipe in my tank!!!

[prostaff]

Oh I see. I am not too worried about that I guess. The rock I am using has been with me for 5 years plus and has been transferred several times without finding any major creepy crawlies. All new additions will be just corals and fish and will be quarrantined for a month so I should be able to keep those guys out of the system

[jnarowe]

I hope so...famous last words??

If you have detritus accumulating then won't it also pile up inside the PVC?

[kwl1763]

I will probably drill a slot on the bottom of every piece of mine so detritus can't settle in there. I'm not going to cap them because no telling what nasty compounds will build in the stagnent water inside. You could seal everything up but then it would float, etc, etc.

There is no reason something large like that couldn't live inside your rockwork just as easily as your piping!


To those that have asked I don't have detailed plans for the skimmer. I would be glad to explain anything but I bought this thing about 95% complete from RC user lovetoreef.

I ordered 200 lbs of tonga kaelini from Dr. Mac to get here on Friday and I've got contractors starting on the basement this weekend so things are moving along pretty good!

I have 2 of the tubs actually hooked together now with a Mag 9.5 rigged to pump from the bottem to the top and it overflows to the bottom. They both have racks in there for curing the LR to allow for better circulation. I'm going to put a Tunze in the bottom of each to provide circulation when curing. I'm making water like crazy and should have both full by tonight so I'll bring the SG up to around 1.025 for the rock to arrive. I have to throw the heaters in there tonight also as the water is in the mid 50's right now.

I'll post some pics after the rock comes in.

[jnarowe]

Good points. The floating thing is definitely a serious problem. I forgot about that.:p

[melev]

Keith, how is that Merlin system working for you? Did you happen to measure the waste ratio? I did a little research on that unit, and may have already pointed you to the FAQ page about them. It did indicate you'd want some prefilters, but then again I think you mentioned your TDS were rediculously low (under 5) right out of the tap. :eek:

[kwl1763]

Marc, the Merlin is working out great. It's very much gheto rigged right now since there is currently no plumbing in the basement. I actually am using prefilters. I'm using a set of 3 off of an old low GPD RO unit I've had for years collecting dust! I'll get a picture of it when I move it to it's real home in a few weeks.

The water is super cold now so I'm getting around 400GPD. Still beats the heck out of the 60 or so I'd be getting at these temps with a standard 100GPD unit.

I haven't really measured the waste but can tell it's at least slightly less waste ratio than my old unit.

The tap here is actually around 20ppm which is still darn good.

I know if I didn't have the unit I for sure would have just used tap water with some Amquel. I wouldn't have waited for 3 days to fill each sump and the like 10 when the tank came! Now it only takes a few hours for each sump and the tank should take less than a day.

[melev]

That is really cool. Do you think the new Atlanta Aquarium is using the Merlin too? :lol:

[SERVO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6481945#post6481945 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kwl1763
I ordered 200 lbs of tonga kaelini from Dr. Mac to get here on Friday and I've got contractors starting on the basement this weekend so things are moving along pretty good!


I'll post some pics after the rock comes in.


I hope that he is shipping you large pieces. As you know, anything smaller than a basket ball will get lost in that monster tank.

[kwl1763]

I specified show pieces so we'll see. I got a super deal. I'm not to worried about it since I'll build a PVC support. I'll actually need some smaller stuff to fill holes, etc. I'm hoping for a couple monsters and then several football and basketball sized.

[kwl1763]

Wow I'm definitely not disappointed! Worn out and tired YES but it was a fun evening today.

First of all I can't say enough about the value of the rock from Dr. Mac. It was the 1st grade Tonga. For right at $2.50 INCLUDING shipping I got some really nice stuff. Now I have seen more corraline coverage, etc but not for under $3 a lb. This exceeded my expectations for sure!

OK so a little about the setup first I have the skimmer connected to one of the troughs. I have a Mag 9.5 pumping water from the bottom trough into the upper trough then it drains back down through 2 1.5" bulkhead. In each trough I have 2 150W heaters and a Tunze 6100.

When I got the rock I had 2 20G rubbermaids full of saltwater to dunk and swish before putting them into the troughs on the rock racks I made which ended up working out great!

Anyway onto the pics of the rock. About half the rocks were at least 10" and a few were monsters!

Boxes waiting to be opened!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/boxes.jpg

First Box

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/box1.jpg


Box 2

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/box2.jpg

Box 3

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/box3.jpg

Box 4

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/box4.jpg

[kwl1763]

Here are a couple closups. It was dark so the autofocus didn't work to well obviously!!!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/bigrock.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/fuzzybig.jpg


Here is what the "swish and dunk" buckets look like when I was finished! Pretty nasty!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/swishbucket.jpg


Then here is everythig loaded onto the racks in the troughs


Top Trough

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/topvatfull.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/rock/bottomvatfull.jpg


The racks have really worked out great. Everything is suspended and the rocks for the most part aren't even touching each other!


I finished up about 30 minutes ago and the skimmer is starting to get some foam. I'm sure tommorow I can post some pics of the skimmate it pulls!

I also officially ordered the tank today so moving right along!!!

[jnarowe]

You know that rock looks really nice! I will check out Dr. Mac.

[Chrisrush]

Keith, are you planning on 'cooking' the rock, or just keeping it in the troughs until you get your tank setup?

Also, on the merlin ro unit, it is just ro water correct? Can you add on a di unit?

Thanks,

Chris

[kwl1763]

Chris, I'm cooking without really intentionally doing it. There is no light down there so I have no choice. I'll guess I'll say I intentionally got the rock this early for that very reason though. It will be in there probably 2 months until the tank gets moved in and set up!

Yep, the Merlin is just RO. I put just a standard coralife add on DI canister after it. Fortunatly my tap water here is pretty darn ood so the DI should last quite a while. I'm getting 1 or 2 TDS out of the Merlin and 0 after the DI. I also put 3 prefilters (standard ones on RODI units) on before it so it's complete now. It's a little goofy because the Merlin uses 3/8" tubing and everything else uses 1/4" so there are quite a bit of reduction and expansion connectors.

The skimmer this morning is starting to foam but nothing major dumping out yet. I'm a little suprised it's taking a while but I'm not worried at all. It seems to be functioning well! I've had it take up to two days with new LR before it realy started taking the nastiness out.

[schwaggs]

Keith, I recently setup a 210 display with a total system volume of around 400 gallons here in hotlanta. I just read through your entire thread here and have a comment/questions on the humidity issue. Do you have AC installed in your basement yet? Is it a separate system from the rest of your house? I had to install a separate AC/furnace for my basement becuase the first floor furnace/AC was not big enough to handle both floors. This turns out to be a blessing. The guy that installed the basement system used smaller diameter ducting with a larger blower than needed. This creates a pressure and slower flow in the return ducting that actually "wrings" the moisture out of the air. I was able to keep my system within .5 degrees of my setpoint with just fans! It worked well this summer when the AC was running. I also have a bathroom vent fan in my fishroom that I could use if I needed.

The problem started this fall when the AC doesn't run very much and it isn't cold enough to run the furnace. I have a dehumidifyer that runs anytime the RH gets over 40 or 50%. This fall, it was running constantly but evaporation could no longer keep my system cool due to the higher RH. That's when I determined that this wasn't working, essentually, I was evaporating water into the air (cheap way to cool tank, right?) just to pay to have it removed by the dehumidifyer (just as expensive to run as a chiller!). So this fall, I connected my chiller and disconnected the fans. That worked very well. The evaporation rate was only a couple of gallons a day and if the humidity got too high, the de-humidifyer runs.

This winter, humidity has not been a problem. I set the basement to around 65 degrees and neither the chiller nor the dehumidifyer run. In fact, I need to run 450W of heater to keep the system warm...

For next summer, I was thinking of placing the chiller outside. This way, all the heat extracted by the chiller will be put outside in the first place. Of course, I might just use fans with the AC again.

My advide to you is to get a separatly AC system for your basement if you have not already. If it is tied to your upstairs system, you could check into getting a damper installed that would allow you to set different temps for upstairs and down. Have some furnace ducts installed in your fish room to keep it cool and dry in the summer and warm in the winter, Also, I would install ducting from the hood of your display location into your fish room before finishing the walls just in case you need it some day. Also, install one or more exhause vents in your fish room before finishing any areas that would prevent installation later. You also should see if there is an area in your fish room where you can install a sink and counter for cleaning things, including your hands. This has proven VERY helpful for me. I would plan on getting a de-humidifyer for your fish room as backup for those days when neither the furnace nor AC runs.

[melev]

Keith, that rock does look great, and it was good that you chose to dunk and swish it all. It's amazing what comes out of LR.

Schwaggs, interesting points. Thanks for chiming in on this topic, as it is one many of us deal with.

[jnarowe]

kwl1763 can't PM you. Your box is full!!:D

[kwl1763]

Sorry about that. I cleaned it out now!

While I was testing the trough water today I decided to test the tap. Since there was only about 16 TDS in it I wanted to see what was in there. Well phosphates are off the charts. At least 5ppm. Nitrates were detetable but less than 1ppm. So even though the water is low TDS I still would never use it with readings like that! Getting some nice junk out of the skimmer now. I'll try to snap some pics tonight.

[jnarowe]

the problem with phosphates and nitrates is that they fluctuate so you never know what you are getting, and adding it to an aquarium is sure to cause problems...from personal experience!

[kwl1763]

So there was a couple issues I had regarding Phosban Reactors.

The tank is going to be roughly 800G total so I needed at least 3 phosban reactors going. Since the flow is so slow for them I figured I could daisy chain a bunch together. That however would cause an issue since the first reactor media would be used up fastest, etc so I had to figure a way to run them in parallel. It would have been easy enough to get a bunch of 1/2" soft piping and 1/2" T's and done it that way but the major problem was the sides of my sump are to wide for the reactor hanger. I had to do more then widen thaough as they need to be fairly level to work properly. So a few Lowe's trips and an afternoon later here is what I came up with!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/PhosbanSetup/phosfull.jpg

The ball valves are strictly to keep water from circulating through the support parts. Here are some other angles.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/PhosbanSetup/phosside.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/PhosbanSetup/phosoutput.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/PhosbanSetup/phostop.jpg

[kwl1763]

I did a 90G water change in the curing troughs before work this morning. This was ~60% of the total. It's weird that do that will only be like 10% in the future and it's almost twice as much as my first tank in total (55G). The water actually looks pretty good. I dunked and swished again and a little cloudy but nothing like the first time and the bottom of the troughs had only a very light coat of detritus which I siphoned out.

Now to the fun stuff. The skimmer is really stating to kick now! My wife thinks I'm crazy getting excited over nasty skimmate but I'm normal right! RIGHT? Come on I need some support here!

Anyway here are some pics of the "dirty bubbles"


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/Skimmate/skimmatefull.jpg



http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/Skimmate/skimmatejan17.jpg



http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Jan_06/Skimmer/Skimmate/skimmateneck.jpg

[NexDog]

Very neat! (on the reactors)

I can understand your excitement on the skimmer. Took a while to get my new deltec dialled in and when it finally started to produce good nog I was well chuffed. :D

[jackson6745]

That's a mean looking skimmer. Do you have a shot of the whole thing in action(since you added the rock)?

[jnarowe]

Nice work. That reactor mount is wild. Hard to figure it out until you explain theat the PVC is just for mounting. How are you runninig them so that they are parallel? Can you describe that?

[kwl1763]

Sure no problem.

The main issue with a big tank is you need more then 1. 1 reactor is rated for ~300G so I needed 3 of them (I did 4 to run carbon in the fourth)

My first thought was to run the output of one into another, etc. The problem with that is the media in the first reactor would be used up much faster then the other as it is getting the "dirty water". So I had to figure out a way to run them parallel. In other words feed them all dirty water.

If the reactors could sit on the ground or hang on the sump the solution would be very simple as you could just run the input to a 1/2" barbed T. The bottom of the T would go through the provided ball valve and input into the reactor. The other side of the T would continue to another T where the bottom of that second T could then be connected to another, reactor, etc until on the last you could use a 90 elbow instead of a T. This lets the "dirty" water be distributed equally among the reactors meaning that theoretically they will use up the media at the same rate.

Unfortunatly the lip of the troughs is to wide to allow the hangers built in on the reactor to work so I built this to support the reactors and keep them level and run them in parallel.

Hopefully that didn't confuse the issue further. The only PVC with water flow in the picture is the main bar you see with the grey barbs screwed into it. The rest is simply for support. The ball valves just stop the water from flowing through the support structure.

[kwl1763]

Richard on p. 5 there is a shot of the full skimmer running in all it's glory.

Schwaggs, sorry for the delay as I just now got a spare minute to read your full post. I am having seperate AC/heat installed in the basement. I will for sure have on of the reurns in the fish room. That way it will create a negative pressure situation and suck "fresh air" in from other parts of the basement. I'm sure I'll put a duct in there blowing also but will probably just shut it so the negative pressure will be more. The key is getting that humidity out of the room! If I just cool it down it will just condensate on the walls contributing to the problem.

I will install a vent fan that will be hooked to a humidistat. I'm actually trying to think of way to be able to run that only when the humidy outside is under x%. I don't want to be venting outside only to suck in high humidity air. Fortunatly it will be sucked from other areas of the basement. Again my focus is going to be on creating these negative pressure situation to actually get the humidity out of there! I'm really hoping I won't need a chiller. I'm not worried about 9 months out of the year as the basement stays pretty cool. It's those hot couple summer months I'm worried about. Hopefully fans will get the job done. If not I'll do as you suggest and just turn off all the fans to reduce evap and put a chiller on.

[tang_man_montreal]

I love the phosban reactor manifold... I see one of those in my near future.. :)

[jnarowe]

Thanks for the explanation. That makes a lot of sense. Could you have just built a larger reactor or used some sort of larger filter to accomodate the media? Are they rated for 300g because of media volume? HWta about flow rate? Can the media be changed while the others are still in use or do you have to shut it down to swap out media?

[kwl1763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6528973#post6528973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
Thanks for the explanation. That makes a lot of sense. Could you have just built a larger reactor or used some sort of larger filter to accomodate the media? Are they rated for 300g because of media volume? HWta about flow rate? Can the media be changed while the others are still in use or do you have to shut it down to swap out media?

Ya but the reactors were $25 so the whole thing cost me less than $120. Find me a huge fluidized filter for that and I'd buy it! These hold almost as much as the big one here.

http://www.myreefcreations.com/newproducts.htm

So I saved like $100

The media volume they hold is 150g which can treat 300G of water.

Flow rate is real slow. just enough to make the top of the media "dance" and the whole thing slowly boil. I have to shut the whole thing down to change media but it's not a big deal. I can remove them independent of each other. It takes literally 2 minutes to change the media.

[jnarowe]

Good to know. And the reactors are the Phosban brand? I thought those were more expensive.

[melev]

Keith, I thought those reactors were only rated for 150g each. That is why I have two on my tank to phosphate removal.

[kwl1763]

No if you read the 150 stands for 150 grams! That according to the directions will treat 300 gallons. You would still need 2 on yours as you have like 350 gallons total. Not only that but I'm sure they are probably a little generous with the rating like anyone else!

The curing vat has suprisingly clean water. There is a trace of nitrite and nothing else. No funky smells and the skimer is still producing but only a very small amount of skimmate. There is a very very small amount of detritus on the bottom and that's it. I'm doing another 90G water change tommorow still!

I'm also thinking about leaving some rock in the tank where the skimmer is runnign now as sort of a cryptic sponge filter. We'll see as we go.

[ReefWaters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6543969#post6543969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kwl1763 I'm also thinking about leaving some rock in the tank where the skimmer is running now as sort of a cryptic sponge filter. We'll see as we go. [/B]

Are you referring to the Dynamic Ecomorphology method? I really like that idea. Not so much to run the whole system but to supplement it. I plan on adding a cryptic tank to my system in the future, when it gets moved and I have the room for yet another tank to connect to the system. It certainly cant hurt anything and I don't see how it would cause any problems. Remember that they suggest almost no flow through that tank though.

Let me know if that's what your thinking about.

[McGinnis]

Keith,
Any news to report this week? How is the progress coming along? I really like how you setup your Phosphate reactors! Keep us posted!

[kwl1763]

Sorry Guys, I was out of the country for a couple weeks.

ReefWaters, It's not a true criptic as the flow is high but there should be plenty of sponge and pod growth there for sure.

Things are progressing fine. Everything was fine while I was gone. I setup an autotoppoff before I left that was 20G so my wife only had to fill it once while I was gone. Everything seems to be good. The skimmer production has slowed but I'm pretty sure that's just because the rock is almost cured. I have an all zero reading now so It's humming along. They are supposed to build the walls for the fish room and the hole etc either this week or next.

[kwl1763]

Well things are coming along. The fishroom is all framed out! I did a 90G water change this morning again. More then anything I'm doing it to maintain levels since I don't measure the calcium and alkalinity and such on a regular basis. I have a touch (less than 5ppm nitrate and nothing else detectable.

Here are some pics of the room.

First this is a shot of what you will look at so this is facing the front of where the tank will be.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/front.jpg

The fish room itself is 12x14 plus a little 5x4ft notch for the sink area which I'll get to in a minute.

This is looking into the fish room from the same angle as the last shot.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/frontroom.jpg

Here is the best shot of the full room I could get from the side.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/Full-Room.jpg

Here is a pic showing the 5ft double door framed.


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/door.jpg

Here is a close up of the stand. It is not done yet as I still am going to put some bracing in the center. It's made of 2x6s.



http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/stand.jpg


Here is the sink area. They have run the lines. I told them to put the dran low and they are going to leave a connection on the top of the drain PVC so I can hook up and drain for a water change. I think I'll just put a union. Have a cap on one and then a barb on another and leave the cap on until I do the water change then just change out the top of the union to the barb, connect the drain hose. Open the drain valve and done!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/sink_area.jpg

Coming right along!

[melev]

I don't think that stand is nearly strong enough Keith. I know you are going to add more bracing, and I also know that you know what I know that you know what you are doing, but....

The flat 2x6 frame at the top is not strong in that application, but would be if it was on edge. Others may disagree. I see the 8 uprights as being 8 high points, with each section between them as possible sagging points. The corners should be very strong, so I'd double up the uprights there.

Other than that one small issue ;) I think it is coming along great. I want to see it in person after you've got all the hard work done. :D

[jnarowe]

so nice to start from scratch! It looks like it's coming along nicely.

I do have to echo what Marc said. I know you said you are adding bracing, but looking at the picture it looks to me like only about 30-40% of what I believe you should have. My stand is all 4 x 4 with many doubled up. Take a look at some others on RC (like mine) so you can get a better feel for how stout it should be.

Since you have the luxury of building eveything from scratch, try to take advantage of that and build everything 50% stronger than you think it needs to be. At the very minimum, I would double up every 2 x 6 in that frame including top and bottom. You will end up with at least 10 lbs. per gallon riding on that thing, plus the weight of the tank! :D I would estimate that my tank with sand, rock, & water will come in around 11,000 to 12,000 lbs!

[melev]

I underestimated, thinking it was more like 5000 lbs. The good thing is that all of that can be pulled out easily and replaced with a better design, and honestly it doesn't matter how much is under the tank since your sumps are not going underneath. As long as you have bulkhead access, that's all you need.

[McGinnis]

Keith,
That room is going to be great once it is completed. It looks like you will have a lot of room to move around in there...great work on the planning and setup. I have to agree with Marc and Jonathan about the stand. Having spent a lot of time reading about these larger systems, I got used to seeing really massive stands, stands that were incredibly over-built, and stands that were overkill. If it were me, I would err on the side of overkill, just for peace of mind, and make the stand as bomb-proof as possible.

[kwl1763]

OK I actually had a guy do the real structural analysis in the computer using 15,000 lbs. Stand with the litle extra bracing I did add still had a safety factor of over 2. I know some people build ridiculously overbuilt stands. It doesn't mean you need them. I'm perfectly comfortable with 30,000 lbs. instead of 100,000 lbs.

[jnarowe]

all righty then!:D I wonder what my stand could hold??? LOL...I have 25 - 4x4s plus extra braces supporting 40 sq. ft.

[Julio]

GREAT SYSTEM, love the large water volume. Nice plumbing.

[prostaff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6754541#post6754541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kwl1763
OK I actually had a guy do the real structural analysis in the computer using 15,000 lbs. Stand with the litle extra bracing I did add still had a safety factor of over 2. I know some people build ridiculously overbuilt stands. It doesn't mean you need them. I'm perfectly comfortable with 30,000 lbs. instead of 100,000 lbs.
LOL Isn't it amazing how much we overbuild? I built the stand for my 1000gallon tank with 12 4x6 legs(pressure treated) and tons of braces and bolts. I probably have a safety factor of 20

[jnarowe]

prostaff: you have 12 and I have 25?? That's a big difference right there!

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6759207#post6759207 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by prostaff
LOL Isn't it amazing how much we overbuild? I built the stand for my 1000gallon tank with 12 4x6 legs(pressure treated) and tons of braces and bolts. I probably have a safety factor of 20

I have read that pressure treated lumber is not the best to use on stands ??

[melev]

Yes, because as it dries out the shape changes and flexes/warps/twists. If you let it dry out for a few weeks before using it, you can set up a reasonably decent setup that will stay stable. However, if you build the stand with wet lumber, it will change as it dries out and this can cause problems.

[kwl1763]

It does amaze me how much people overbuild. I think it's probably just due to not having intimate knowledge of strengths so we just go super overboard to make sure. Luckily I was an engineer by schooling so I have lots of friends who have cool modeling software that can actually figure some of this stuff out.

Not that there is anything wrong with overbuilding. Much better safe then sorry.

On that note and in an ironic twist fate, I was moving the sumps around last night (clearing the fish room for sheetrock, paint, etc.) and the middle stand cracked and I spilled about 10G onto the floor! That was obviously underbuilt. Should have consulted my resources on that one! I'll be rebuilding it tonight!

I transferred the water and the rock into the third sump that was not currently in use and moved everything to the next room over. It was not a fun process and it took about 4 hours total. Luckily I won't have to do that often!

[McGinnis]

Keith,
Glad to hear things are moving along! When you say the stand cracked, do you mean the ones you built on wheels? Sorry to hear that happened, but luckily you had the other sump ready and available to transfer all the rock to.

Can I ask a question about your circulation in the tank. You mentioned having two waveboxes, in what sort of configuration are you going to place them? Also, aside from the two Streams, are you thinking closed loop? Sorry if this is putting the cart before the horse, but curiosity is getting the better of me!

[jnarowe]

Keith! Wow, is that a bad "omen" since we have been talking about your stand strength? Seems a bit coincidental doesn't it? Now you HAVE to over-build or you won't be able to sleep at night. :rolleyes:

[McGinnis]

Keith,
Tell us you are still alive!? This thread has gone one solid week without any updates, so you are way over due!

[kwl1763]

Sorry guys I was out of the country again! To bad it's on business and I don't get to enjoy. It was Portugal this time!

No real updates though. I am going to rebuild the broken cart this weekend. I think I might get to painting the fish room this weekend. The only real progress is being made on the basement itself. Tape and bed is done so it's moving along nicely.

I haven't read the setup yet but I'm pretty sure the waveboxes have to be used on the same side of the tank. For other circulation I have 4 Streams (2 6100s and 2 6000s) and Iwaki 55 for the return and a Hammerhead (5500GPH) on a closed loop.

[McGinnis]

Keith,
That is going to be some amazing flow going on in that tank! I cannot wait to see how it is going to progress!

[kwl1763]

Ok nothing real exciting. I did stay home and do a bunch this weekend though. I reinforced the stand a little on the corners. I will probably do some more reenforcing with 2x4's eventually just for insurance. I painted the fish room in 2 coats of premium kilz on all the walls and ceilings and the stand. I coated the cement floor with a sealer then a coat of kilz on top. I'm trying to get them to go ahead and just totally finish the fish room with trim and outlets and all first before moving on so I can move the skimmer and rock etc. back into the fish room and never have to move it again. I've moved it back and forth twice now and since one of my stands broke that once I'm always nervous doing it.

I also did a slight tank design change. They are going to do an external overflow which I'm pumped about. They are going to cut two 1/4" slots 35" long each. I was a little worried about weaking the tank but he assured me it was no issue! This will give me a nice amount of room in the tank. They are doing it 2.25" from the top of the tank. Given that the wavebox can generate a 2" wave I wanted it low enough to crank it full blast.

Here are some pics.

Here the stand.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/stand.jpg


Here is the view the fish will have! There will be a bar on the back right of the picture with mirros behind which should reflect the tank nicely!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/fishview.jpg

Here is looking into the room through the opening where the tank will be.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/intoroom.jpg


Cutout area for the sink. You can see the connections.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/sinkarea.jpg

Finally the door into the fish room

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/door.jpg

Next weekend I plan on doing the bilgekote (assuming the baseboard goes in) and the room will be pretty close to ready! Tank is going to be here in 3-4 weeks.

[McGinnis]

Keith,
That is going to be such a great setup! Looks really nice. I like the idea of the bar with mirrors! Can't wait to see it all.

[charlesjordanjr]

Keith, things are looking great! I may have missed it, but are you going to have a line drain into the drain on the nearby sink? (for water changes and such.)
-chuck

[melev]

Okay, can I talk about the stand again? The cross braces are just not going to cut it in that configuration. They are toe-nailed for goodness sake. :rolleyes:

I would either put something on edge underneath, or an upright under each one.

On the other uprights, I'd like to see you insert a few perpendicular and nailed to the current ones. Each one would become a "T" and thus could not bow/flex outward and the tank will not be able to twist/flex like you'd expect with diminos tumbing over. (for lack of a better example...) I just don't want to stand to rack to the side for some odd reason. I know I may be overbuilding it, but since you don't plan to put anything underneath, who cares if you add a little more lumber?

The room look amazing, and if you'd hurry up and get all the hard work done, I'll like to come see it and enjoy it like a lazy bum. :D

The slit-overflows sound great.

Keep up the good work.

[Bax]

I 'd like to see more lateral bracing as well, ... but that room is gona look awsome when you're done!

[kwl1763]

You overbuilders. I am going to add a little more bracing this week just to appease the masses! 2x4s are cheap so it won't hurt anything. The center braces will do nothing in reality. It's only giving me something to screw the plywood into!

Bax I was originally going to have a floor drain that would only require the turning of a ball valve and no pump but after getting quoted $1200 for that, that plan went out the window so yes I will now have a T off the return pump that with a couple ball valve turns will lead to draining the bottom sump of all it's water into the sink.

[McGinnis]

Keith,
Can you elaborate, perhaps use one of your pictures, to show how you are going to drain your sump into the sink? I assume you are going to connect the return to the drain below the sink? Is this correct?
In regards to your stand, having read several threads about large tanks and wooden stands, adding more 2X4 just for peace of mind is probably not a bad idea. I would hate to read at some point in the future that the stand has warped or experiencing some problem that could have been prevented with some extra bracing in the beginning.

[kwl1763]

Matthew,

I don't have anything yet as far as pictures. What it will be is just a T off the return pump along the ground, up the wall and into the sink. I will have ball valves to force the water that way during draining. I hope that helps some. I will post more as I get closer.

Ok I made the stand mods. It's roughly 4 times stronger due to these changes. I'm done with it except for the 3/4 ply on top!

I put braces across the top and bottom and also uprights. I also supported the middle brace that were toe nailed.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/stand/fullstand.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/stand/braces.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/stand/centerbrace.jpg


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Feb_06/Fish_Room/endoffeb/stand/backbrace.jpg

Hopefully this will appease the stand nazis :D

[melev]

http://melevsreef.com/g/yes.gif

[McGinnis]

Keith,
I think your stand is totally overbuilt!

Just kidding, I really like the looks for it! I am sure that thing will handle two-times as much weight now....but more importantly I think you just built in peace of mind!

Thanks for the explaination, that makes perfect sense.

[Bax]

Once skinned, it'll be great ... and we'll all sleep better for it :)

[kwl1763]

No skinning for me! I'm going to give it a coat of BilgeKote and leave it open so I can have some storage under there at least. I might even put my quarentine tanks under there!

[BrianPlankis]

Ok Keith,

I'm a newb when it comes to lumber/construction. What does toe-nailed mean? I did a google search but came up with a lot of links saying toe-nailed, but none defining it.

Thanks,

Brian

[melev]

Toe-nailed is a term used in construction to attached one board to another, typically after the fact because you couldn't do so originally. It is a weak connection at best. It may be used when a few more 2x4 uprights are added to an existing wall, or for ceiling joists that the sheetrock hangs from. It isn't illegal nor dangerous, and is used when necessary.

I believe the reason it is called that is because you'd put the toe of your shoe behind the board to keep it from shifting, and then drive a 12 (or 16) penny nail through the board at an angle into the board beneath. The act of driving nails at this angle can crack or split the wood in the process, so it isn't a good solid connection.

In this picture, you can see where four nails were driven to hold the cross member in place. Which is okay if it was going to be covered with a counter top. With the weight of a tank adding up to 1000s of pounds, and gravity 24 hours a day, and then the hobbyist climbing up and down and leaning on the tank as needed, the stand needs to be much stronger to avoid it racking suddenly. Myself, I want a solid surface under the tank's glass bottom (or acrylic) to support that panel fully, and if those blocks aren't solid, it could bow downward.

In this image, I drew one arrow to give you a sense of direction of how the nail was driven threw the cross brace and into the outer perimeter board. I also showed how many nailes were used - not as many as one might like, but if built differently more would be used.

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/06/03/toenailed.jpg

[BrianPlankis]

Thanks Marc,

That is a very good explanation and use of pictures. You sure you aren't a teacher? :)

Brian

[melev]

Just a guy with saltwater in his veins. :)

[charlesjordanjr]

So when are you going to put water in it?;) Everything is really coming along.
-Chuck

[alien9168]

Awsome!

Strong stand!
-alien

[kwl1763]

Um Chuck I think the tank has to actually arrive before I can put water in it :D

OK I can't brag enough about the Bilgekote. The finish it puts on is super impressive. Very, very nice and even and it's totally everything proof. Even when i dripped some paint on it from a second coat it wipes right up. I was warned by jnarowe to put a primer on before and I'm glad I did as the whole room only took 2 gallons of it that way and since it's $50 a gallon that's a good thing! I put on 2 coats of $10/G Kilz premium on everything before it.

I painted the walls, floor, and stand a mixture of half and half grey and white and the ceiling, soffets and trim pure white. I've touched up and painted the doors and trim, etc. since these pics but it will give you an idea.

Here is the product in case your looking for it.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Mar_06/Room/bilgekote.jpg

Here is the doors installed. As I said they are painted with white Bilgekote now.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Mar_06/Room/doors.jpg

Sink area

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Mar_06/Room/sinkarea.jpg

Stand

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Mar_06/Room/stand.jpg

Right corner

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Mar_06/Room/rightcorner.jpg

I'm actually really happy with the color. It actually looks great and the contrast of the grey and white is nice. Next week they are going to add quarter round to the floor, trim out the window, and add the electric and light fixture and it'll be done baby!!!

Nothing else major. I got a 3/4 hp Chiller. I paid less then half of new for one that is less than 5 month old!

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=CU02609

Also got this ozonizer from Enaly. Some people on RC have been giving them good reviews, it's 200 mg/h for $75!!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Mar_06/ozonizer.jpg

Rock is going to town. Now there is virtually nothing that comes off when I dunk and swish just a litlle dust like stuff. The skimmer is still pulling out some but not a ton like at first.

Tank will be here in a couple weeks!!!

[kwl1763]

On the DIY side I tried my own Maxi-Jet to Stream modification. Man it works brilliantly. It actually feels like more then a Tunze.

Here is the finished product.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Mar_06/DIY_Tunze/finishfullruler.jpg

You can read more here.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=790770&perpage=25&pagenumber=8

[melev]

Now you got me wanting to run ozone again. :lol: I'll go read Randy's recent article to change my mind back again. :D

[kwl1763]

Quick question for you guys. The drains of the tank will be roughly 16" above the level of the top sump. But the sump is literally across the room so it will be like a 15ft horizontal run. I could run it against the wall but I would like to run it to the floor then across then back up so it will be out of the way.


Hopefully that makes sense. Will I run into any issues going down and back up? I would guess not because the down the up would cause zero additional head pressure. Kind of like a closed loop causes none. Is this correct?

[Roland Jacques]

that will be fine if you use the right size pipe for your flow

[jsteidl]

You should have no problem. I am doing the same thing running from the tank to the garage 25ft. As long as the pipes do not go back up to the height of the tank, you will be fine.

[kwl1763]

Well I've got some outstanding news!

The tank will ship next week!!! :D :D :D :D :D


I'm super pumped. That means it will be here the week after next.

I actually got some work on the room done this weekend. Built the light rack and hung it with the bike pulley (totally stealing ideas from other people). I'll get some pics tonight or tommorow. Since the time changed and it is actually still light when I get home I'm going to get started on the "doghouse" for my chiller. I'm going to be putting it outside under my deck then running th cord and PVC through the wall to the fishroom. Hopefully I'll have that done this week. Then the plumbing, then some more live rock, etc, etc. plenty to do!

[Roland Jacques]

the dog house, for your chiller you might want to make it big enough for 2 so when your wife finds out what you spent you'll have some where to go LOL. i live in my dog house

your shipping the tank? im sure it a good tank and all but if something happens in the shipping or something. their is great manufactures locally in your backyard even. it might save you some money next time.

[kwl1763]

That's a good idea Roland :D Fortunatly I'm honest with my wife and she knows how much it costs. She has her vices (clothes, furniture) and I have mine (golf, reefing, etc.) it works out! We're very fortunate and blessed in that we can afford to do our hobbies!

Roland please either post or PM me who you might suggest for the tank.

I checked with a couple local (or witin driving distance) and they were in the stratosphere on price (except for glasscages which I decided against for quality issues). In the end I narrowed it down to two Canadian companies based on quality first and price second but it's still a very important second! I got quotes from 8 different companies.

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7101320#post7101320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kwl1763
That's a good idea Roland :D Fortunatly I'm honest with my wife and she knows how much it costs. She has her vices (clothes, furniture) and I have mine (golf, reefing, etc.) it works out! We're very fortunate and blessed in that we can afford to do our hobbies!



Brother, count your blessings. i usally tell my wife but i wait a few days, weeks, months, ok i have to work on that. i did pm you.

[TCU Reefer]

Great news on the tank being shipped Keith. I'm excited for you. Keep us posted.

[alien9168]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7102293#post7102293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TCU Reefer
Great news on the tank being shipped Keith. I'm excited for you. Keep us posted.

I cant wait to see it dude! :)

-alien

[kwl1763]

So here is what I spent my Saturday (well after a round of golf that is) doing.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Light_Rack/backview.jpg

It's made out of 1/8" L bracket aluminum with 3/16" wide 1/4" grab rivets. That was my first experience with rivets and I like them! Works brilliantly

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Light_Rack/frombottom.jpg

With the bike rack (a great deal by the way at $25 from Target) the way it says to do it is stupid because it would make raising and lowering it a two person job as they have one string going through the whole contraption. Anyway I broke the rules and hooked one string to each side so I ran them both out. Now I can lift up and down with ease and it stays level! It's a little hard to see in the pic.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Light_Rack/norules.jpg

And I still find it odd that the fish have the best view in the basement!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/fish-view.jpg

Oh well!!! I am going to build a shelf up high for the ballasts this week and a chiller housing and hope I can get those both done by Saturday. I'd say chances are slim but I'm optimistic

:D

[alien9168]

Looking good.

I really like the shot of your reflectors. They really look great.

And nice job on the bike rack mod/ light rack! :)
Are you going to try and hide all your fish equipment in the cabinets^^^

-alien
-alien

[ReefWaters]

Great job on the light rack! Very nice. Which Luminarc's are those? Also, are you going to run just MH or will you have any fluorescent supplements?

Looking Good. :p

[kwl1763]

Those are the Lumen-Max reflectors. I have 2 DE 250W PFOs in between them.

I'm really really torn on the lighting.

My original idea was to get some 20k XM DE bulbs and run 10k XMs SE in the Lumenarcs and then have 4 5 ft actinic VHOs doing the coloring.

I really really like the way the new Reeflux 10k bulbs look though! The problem is the PAR is very significantly lower then the XM.

So I think I could run the 10k reeflux and the 20k DE with no VHOs and would be real nice color wise. but not so great PAR wise.

Other option is to do what I originally planned and forget the reeflux.

Other option would be to run the Reeflux then put 10k XMs in the 250DE and double up on the actinics. This would get me my lost PAR but not sure on the looks.

Opinions?

[Roland Jacques]

That fixture looks awesome.

Do you like the color of the XM10k SE bulbs? They look a bit yellow to me. But with the 03 tubes it not that much deference. Their 20k SE bulb looks perfect to me. I have never seen their DE in action. It looks like you have it covered ether way. Are your 03s going to be mounted to your light fixture? I find that if the 03 tubes are up high they don’t help enough with the color. for what thats worth

[kwl1763]

Ya I'm going to do something else so the VHOs if I end up going that route are close to the water! Yet another thing to design! I have the light rack like I do because I'm going to start the bulbs off at 15" and then every 6 months move them down 3" I should be able to get 2 years easy out of the bulbs that way! Yet another reason I probably want the higher PAR.

[Roland Jacques]

good idea,

[ReefWaters]

I run a single 250W Hamilton 14K and 150w of VHO 03 Actinics. I know that is a LOT less total wattage and bulb count than you are dealing with but I love the color Ive got. Just my opinion.

[alien9168]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7109173#post7109173 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by yourfishman
good idea,

It certaily is. A great way to maximze the bulb life. :)

[Roland Jacques]

Can’t you have your pod fuge mounted higher than the tank so it overflows straight into the tank? Keeps your pods out of the pump, they might get dizzy. :rollface:
You might want to consider the Hagen 901 steam mod for flow very simple to mod. Out flows all the tunze's and probably the Vortech also and at $60 plus mods parts $10 you cant beat the price. $70 12,000gph plus.

where did you get the tubs for $50? that is a deal.

My bad, i was reading the first page as the last. that was wied. now i feel dizzy

[kwl1763]

Ok I decided to go with pure XMs. 3 SE 250W 10k and 2 DE 20k.

I like it because it gives me both blue and violet spikes.

10k SE and 20k DE 250W XM bulb spectrum (http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/spectraldata-line-2.php?Watts=250&Watts2=250&LampManuf=XM&LampManuf2=XM&Lamptype=Double+Ended&Lamptype2=Single+Ended&LampName=21&LampNameText=XDE+250W+20000K+DE+1&LampName2=18&LampName2Text=XM+250W+10000K+SE+1&BallastName=8&BallastNameText=PFO+250W+HQI+%28M80%29&BallastName2=9&BallastName2Text=Magnetek+250W+%28M58%29&Shielded=Y&Shielded2=N&Minwavelength=400&Maxwavelength=700&Submit=Submit)

Another question for you guys. My original idea was to run the return from the final sump to the pump then to the chiller then to the tank. In thinking about that I worry that I will be sending super cold water directly into the tank. It might be diluted quick enough (especially since I'm using penductors) but maybe not. Opinions?

If I end up not doing that I'll have yet another pump to add dedicated to the chiller :mad:

I built most of the chiller "doghouse" tonight. I'll finish that up tomorrow hopefully. Then the ballast shelf Friday night and I'll be ready to get in a couple rounds of golf this weekend. The weather has been awesome here for 7 out of the last 8 weeks!

Roland there is just no practicle way for me to do that. The tank itself will be less then 2 ft from the ceiling for one. For 2 I'm using the penductors which need the pressure associated with the return pumps.

Tractor supply company was having a 20% off sale but they are only $65 normally so they are a great deal!

[Roland Jacques]

You have 4 penductor in your tank right? Only have 1 of them used for the chiller water( that would be 300 gph though your chiller), point that one into open water area. Should work fine. I would only be concerned with that if you had that output pointed directly at some corals.

what size pump are you using with the penductors?

[kwl1763]

2 penductors, Iwaki 55 I ran that setup on a closed loop on my 135 for over a year, worked great and flow was amazing!

The problem is the chiller needs between 1000 and 1800 GPH!

btw I never got your pm about local tank makers

[Roland Jacques]

i did send it. they were not glass tanks. MY Reef Creations is 5 mile or so from Dacula he make great tanks, kind of on the over kill level, but you can sleep at night with his tanks. thiers others also that i buy from. ill try to pm you again

your only going to get 700 gph max (more like 600) out of two .3" nozzles with that pump. total flow 3000gph.

what size is your chiller?

[Roland Jacques]

Keith
on a closed loop you could add a third .3" penductor on that pump, no problem with some to spare. that would put you about 1000 gph line flow and work for your chiller. i just played with a 1 hp chiller and checked the temp coming out. with the 1 to 5 dilution of the penductor the temp drop should be around 1 degrees 18" from the penductor. you could point them anywhere you want IMO.

ive found that the penductors work great down to 6 psi and good down to 5psi =12 feet head. for reef tanks application a 4th on that pump would still increase your overall flow. 1500 x 3 = 4500 or 1200 x 4 = 4800gph. for what it worth.

[kwl1763]

Sounds good Roland,

I'll probably split the return 4 ways then and get a couple extra penductors just to make sure there is enough through the chiller.

In other news, mission accomplished!!!

I finished the shelf for the ballasts and did the chiller housing. I took lots of pics which I'll post within the next couple days.

Other exciting news, In my 20G that I've had setup for about 2.5 years my clowns (which I've had for 1.5 years) finally decided to spawn! She laid a pretty good amount on the back wall! He looks clueless but it's his first time. My wife says just like real life:)

[tigershark4]

I am thinking about purchasing a 350 acrylic I have checked out tenecor, and James from Envision. I also purchased my skimmer and cr from mrc. I did not get a price from mrc. May be cheaper to ship to Maryland. Any thoughts Roland?

[Roland Jacques]

tigershark4

yeah, i would contact email them. top quality tanks good prices. he tends to make them thicker than most.

[alien9168]

i cant wait to see those pics, i bet the stup looks really clean and put together! :)

[schwaggs]

Keith,

Before you run your penductor return through your chiller, you should check your chiller to make sure it can handle the back pressure. Some I have seen do not like back pressure at all...

[kwl1763]

That's a good point schwaggs

Well I'll start with the chiller house. This is going to go outside and be run through the wall. It will be under a deck so I left a gap for venting. I also made the roof and sides easily removable. It didn't need to be super tight. Just enough to keep any splashes off.

Here is the frame. You can see a bunch of screws sticking out. These are what I used to hang the sides and roof on!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Chillerhouse/bare.jpg

Here it is completed (I gave it another coat after the pic)

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Chillerhouse/done.jpg

Here is a close up of the bottom of the roof. Before I put the shingles on I drilled holes and inserted screws so the roof just sits on the top and is easy to take off. The roof is 5/8" ply so it's pretty heavy!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Chillerhouse/roofhole.jpg

This next pic is obviously early on in the painting process but it will give you an idea of the gaps I left at the top for ventilation.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Chillerhouse/gap.jpg


The sides are 3/8" ply and just hang on two screw with 2 holes at the top of them.

[kwl1763]

Other major thing was the ballast shelf. All the stuff to complete the lighting came in so I spent a couple hours rewiring things (cutting off the sunlight connectors from the sockets and splicing in the PFO connectors) and now it's complete.

The shelf itself is 1/2 inch ply. What I did was take 3 hook and eyes to connect it to the ceiling and then also used some construction T's under to support the back. I wanted to make sure this thing was solid as those magnetic ballasts are super heavy!

Some of these pics don't have everything pained but rest assure dit all now has a heavy coat of waterproof paint (including the metal T's!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Light_Rack/ballastsdone.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Light_Rack/fullshelf.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Light_Rack/sideshelf.jpg

I hope everyone is having a great Easter and you spent time with family and your faith!

[melev]

Nice! I'm planning to install a vent fan in the ceiling of my fishroom, directly over the ballasts. Might as well draw out the heat from the lights and ballasts - the source.

[kwl1763]

The tank is in town :D The movers are picking it up from the warehouse and moving it in Friday morning! I'm pumped!!!

Marc, you can't see it here but I have 2 AC returns just to the sides and the above these. I probably will add a fan up there also since it won't hurt anything.

I hooked all the lighting stuff up today and tested it out to make sure it worked.

I also added 1.5" of foam padding for under the tank. I siliconed the corners in place so that it wouldn't move while they are moving it up and onto the stand

Here was the result.

You can probably guess but from top to bottom it's just the 20ks on, then both the 20 and the 10ks on, then just the 10ks.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Lighttest/20kfull.jpg
http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Lighttest/bothfull.jpg
http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Lighttest/10kfull.jpg

Keep in mind the foam is pink in the next sequence. I put a piece of white paper down to hopefully give you a sense of the color difference since the pink messes with it a little. 20k only on left, then both, then 10k only on right.

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Lighttest/20konly.jpg http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Lighttest/both.jpg http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Lighttest/10konly.jpg

It's a little deceiving because the 10k looks more blue then combined. The reality is it's not of course. The white/yellow though washes the pink right out so it doesn't look quite right but it's OK.

I still think I'm going to run a little bit of actinic probably across the tank. Probably 4 3 footers running across the tank. It's not that I need the blue as much as I want to be able to run actinics like 14 hours a day so I can look at the tank more. I'll probably run the 20ks 10 hours and the 10ks 8 hours.

[TCU Reefer]

This is such a sweet project Keith. I can't wait for the tank to get in this Friday. Keep us updated.

[Cutiewitbooty]

i just skimmed throught your thread and i have to say good job! Your fish room is super nice. I like they way you set up the three tubs, that kinda what i wanted to do when i get to the point where i can get a tank that big :D

[elephen]

Looks really nice man, I like the room you built too for viewing the tank, that'll be very relaxing and comfortable when its all done! :)

[kwl1763]

Well a little issue! The cross braces on the tops were busted. There is evidently a triangular shaped piece broken out of both of them. I should have pics tommorow. I'm going to go ahead and move it in and they are going to send me some new cross braces and I'll take the old ones ofgf and replace before the water goes in.

Thanks for the compliments everyone and Amber very nice first pic in your gallery:D

[kwl1763]

Well this issue was a little bigger then originally thought. It has a pretty significant crack on the left side bottom near the front.


http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Tank/sidecrack.jpg


The braces were all kinds of busted!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Tank/brace1.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Tank/brace2.jpg

The pallet was all kinds of messed up!

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Tank/pallet1.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Tank/pallet2.jpg

http://kwl1763.com/Reef/Apr_06/Tank/pallet3.jpg

I've emailed all the pics and stuff to Aquarium Obsessed and am waiting on next steps! Man does this suck!

[Chrisrush]

They did a number on that Keith. Looks like they may have rammed it with something. Was the tank wrapped in anything? Foam? Who shipped it?

Chris

[thewuf]

Just been tagging along till now, but that sucks!!

Majorly Sucks!

Sorry man. We'll still be here waiting when you get this resolved. I know if we're disappointed, you're about to pull your hair out.

Here's hoping for a fast and pleasing resolution!

[charlesjordanjr]

I can't believe it! That stinks! I wonder how long it will take to get a replacement.
-Chuck

[Cutiewitbooty]

wow that sucks, sorry to hear about that. Hopefully you can get another one pretty fast :D

[melev]

Argh. :(

[Roland Jacques]

Sorry to see that Keith, Shippers are bad about shipping aquariums. I bet 30% get damaged in shipping. Its ridicules. It looks like might have been made with that chip missing you can tell by examine the silicon. Most shippers are pretty good about paying you.

[Bax]

Yieks!

That sucks!!!

You got it from AO right?

What did they say?

Is it between you & the shipper, or is AO handling it?

[asnatlas]

Man, I am sorry to hear :(

[kwl1763]

Well as I figured AO is taking care of it. Great people and one of the reasons I went with them!

Here is what they sent me after I sent them the above pics.

"Keith
Boy what a mess. It looks like they used short forks and
the tank slide off. Send me the claim number and I will
get on the shipping compamy right away. We will order you
new glass and start on a tank for you as soon as we can.
Sorry about this.

John"

[Roland Jacques]

Now that is good customer service. i going to have to use them sometime.

I keep looking at that photo from the top. I can’t figure out exactly how that overflow box works. Ether something is missing their or im missing something. It looks like a partially clear box?

[Bax]

Glad to hear they are going to work it out for you, I am planning on order my tank from AO, sorry for your delay, that bites!