will ich go away untreated?

[wakeboarder2342]

I have an outbreak of ich from a few new fish i got a few weeks ago. so far the powder blue tang and a sailfin tang both have it pretty bad,however they are both eating very well and still look very healthy. My tank is so large i doubt i could ever catch them, and i dont want to go hypo with my display tank but will if i must, i have a bunch of SPS and clams in the tank. any adverse affects to hyposalinity here? I also dont have a refractometer so im nervous about going hypo until i get one which may be too late for the fish!!

the powder blue has shown signs of ich now for 14 days and the sailfin just today.

my questions are if they can survive it will it go away or always be present in the system? or should i just go hypo and treat it? like i said a hospital tank is out as i doubt i could ever catch the fish in the system.

advise is appreciated,

[greenbean36191]

You cannot do hyposalinity in a system with invertebrates. Your options are to either try to wait it out and hope for the best or to catch the fish and use a hospital tank. Of course you could also buy all sorts of magical cures and snake oil, but it won't make a difference.

It is a natural part of the lifecycle of ich to drop off of the host for a while (hence the "success" of snake oil cures), but it won't go away. It will still be present in the system and may or may not re-establish a visible infection. The fish will likely always maintain at least a low level infection though.

There is research that shows that after several months without new introduction of the parasite the ich will eventually get weak and die on its own. However, this takes a long time and isn't something you should count on. It also relies on the fact that no new ich is introduced to reseed the genetic line.

[SAT]

Well, that's a big maybe. It is conceivable that your fish could develop and sustain immunity long enough to eradicate the disease. It's also quite possible they will fail to do that and instead have just enough resistance to prevent the parasites from overwhelming them. In that case, you could have a resident population for a long time. This explains the popular theory that Ich is always resident, which I don't believe to be inevitable.

There's a theory that after about a year the cell line will die out on its own. This phenomenon was observed by one researcher, who found they could not sustain a strain of Ich past a year even by providing "fresh meat" (in the form of a fish with no prior immunity) on a regular basis. However, this experiment was not repeated and I would not count on it being a reliable phenomenon.

[wakeboarder2342]

my question is at what point is the ich the worst? its been over 2 weeks now since the signs appeared. I just spent an hour trying to catch the dang things and its not possible in my reef tank! i did however just order a refractometer and setup a 30 gallon quarantine so when i restock i will make sure to quarantine for 4 weeks before any new introductions.

any advise to give my fish the best fighting chance? current stock list is
1 yellow tang, no ich so far
1 lawnmower blenny no ich
1 diamond goby no ich
1 foxface lo. no ich
1 powder blue tang, lots of ich for 2 weeks now
1 black&yellow sailfin tang lots of ich for 2 days now
2 greenchromis no ich


all fish are eating and breathing normally. i guess now its just a matter of time and the lesson learned for being to lazy to quarantine. what do u recommend for quarantine? 4 weeks? with 1.009?

[kimoyo]

jamesbburgess - I just did this today for my tang that has black ich. To treat it I have to give him freshwater dips. I decided to start training these guys to go into a clear plastic container and nets to eat. I got some seaweed and one of those clips with a suction cup on the end. I've been feeding these guys the seaweed for weeks now so they like it. I soaked it in some garlic today but it would have been fine without. Now my fish are somewhat comfortable with my hands in the tank but it might take some patience on your part and several feedings this way. I put the suction on the bottom of the container and clipped the seaweed to it. Then I held the container horizontally in the water. I have an angel that always goes for it first which is good because the other fish see and I'm not going for him. After a while most of them will go in and out. But when the tang that I want to catch goes in, I turn the container vertical disorientating him for a second and lift it up. Its pretty easy with the clear container. HTH.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by jamesbburgess
my question is at what point is the ich the worst?

No simple answer to that ... the ultimate impact on the fish will depend on a variety of factors including how healthy the fish are .. how crowded the tank .. and whether the fish have developed any immunity to ich.

Remember that each individual ich trophont can generate another 200 plus ich - thats why a small ich outbreak can suddenly overwhelm a tank.

Heres an article on ich ... note the diagram outlining the ich lifecyle.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

[Triggerfish]

for a reef that you cannot remove inhabitants from you could try kick ich.
i would get enough to treat for 30 days.

[wakeboarder2342]

Kick Ich has never been proven to do anything for ich.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by jamesbburgess
Kick Ich has never been proven to do anything for ich.

not proven by who, you? :D


http://www.reef-aquarium.net/resources/disease/ich.html

have fun............:D

[greenbean36191]

not proven by who, you?
By anyone.

The ONLY proven cures for saltwater ich are copper, hyposalinity, and tank transfer.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
By anyone.

really? you tried it as well eh...:D

Testimonials:

Excerpted from an article by Steven Pro
"it required twice as many applications as the manufacturer stated on the instructions to affect a complete cure."

<hr>

maxilaria 03-25-2004 11:41 AM

"I've used ruby reef kick ich in my reef and it's worked and not caused any harm to my inverts."

<hr>
03-14-2002 , 10:27 AM #15
Gary D

"I've used Kick Ick and it worked for me."

<hr>

kreblak 08-04-2003 10:37 AM

"I have used No-Ich with great success against SW Ich."

<hr>
10-17-2005, 02:44 PM #3
NateHanson

"I used kick ick on my first reef tank, with apparent success and no side effects."

[wakeboarder2342]

triggerfish,

you still have not provided a scientific study that had PROVEN that kick ich works.

i can give you 10 testimonials of people that say they are 100% sure the have seen elvis in the supermarket.. does that make it a scientific fact?

trust me if it worked then they could scientifically prove it works and we would all use it.

10 or even 100 people swearing it works does not in any way prove it does anything.

and have i tried it? yes i did about a year back, did it save a single fish? NOPE

[Triggerfish]

lol....good luck w/your ich man...

[greenbean36191]

Excerpted from an article by Steven Pro
"it required twice as many applications as the manufacturer stated on the instructions to affect a complete cure."
I'm sure Steven would say the same thing I said if asked about proven cures. In fact he's said it before.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
It will still be present in the system and may or may not re-establish a visible infection.

what, can you elaborate on that one a bit?
you are aware of the Trophont stage, No?

[wakeboarder2342]

triggerfish, all we are saying is to proivde 1 example of a scientific study that proves that kick ich is an effective treament for marine ICH.

testimonials and theories are useless.

like i said, i have seen testimonials that elvis lives and that putting windex on a cut will help it heal faster. however that is not science and it is not FACT.

[Triggerfish]

dude - effective treatments work in some instances and not others.. why does hypo(scientifically proven study?) work on some strains and not others?

i cannot locate "1 example of a scientific study that proves that kick ich is an effective treament for marine ICH" right now..
as i will be taking some time to find "1 example of a scientific study that proves that kick ich is not an effective treament for marine ICH."

But to satisfy yourself,,why don't you just pm Steven to see some documentation regarding the quote I supplied you earlier..

[Triggerfish]

having a tough time finding anything that "scientifically proves it is not effective."

but look here... some of the descriptions of these protozoal infections sound pretty similiar..

http://parasitology.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/login/n/h/2159.html

[tommmy]

"I just spent an hour trying to catch the dang things and its not possible in my reef tank"

Having a Plexiglas partition and one or two breaks in your rock where partition can be placed. Making a large tank 1/3 smaller when needed is great for times like this.

[greenbean36191]

what, can you elaborate on that one a bit?
Sure. Cryptocaryon is microscopic. It takes a pretty heavy case of it before signs are visible. Your fish can still have ich without you seeing it. Unless all of your fish develop full immunity to ich and it starves or you take action to get rid of it, the ich is still in the system whether you see it or not.

[baobao]

Does use of ozonizer and UV help keep lthe level of ich, if it is present in system, at bay? My system has a royal gamma that keeps scratching on sand. I suspect that he may have ich. However, he still has a reasonable appetite and none of the other fish have shown the ich. I know, you're probably thinking that the ich will fall off and come back to infect the other fish. However, this has been the status quo for over two months now. My approach has been to leave things be unless they get more serious. in that case, i would remove all the livestock and treat with cupramine. to keep the ich, if present, in check, i'm using garlic extreme, selcon, and trying to keep water quality high with use of uv sterilizer and ozonier. in addition, i'm also using marc weiss' additives.( marc weiss is well known in the industry).

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
Sure. Cryptocaryon is microscopic. It takes a pretty heavy case of it before signs are visible. Your fish can still have ich without you seeing it.


ya got to read up on the stuff bean...not all stages of the lifecycle are invisible to human eye..the parasite feeds off the fish,,as continues to feed and mature it grows becoming a visible area of infection.

[kimoyo]

jamesbburgess - have you tried to catch your fish with the couple of suggestions you have recieved?

[wakeboarder2342]

i didnt have a refractometer so i ordered one yesterday and paid for 2 day shipping, it should be here tomorrow then i can try again to catch everything and quarantine it.

any other fish catching suggestions are welcomed!!

[Zoom]

I have try Kick ick before in my 90G FOWLR tank all seven fish die in the end.

[greenbean36191]

A single trophont is about .1 mm in diameter. If you have perfect vision you can see objects down to about .07 mm. Trophonts are pretty darn close to being truly microscopic. You aren't going to see them on your fish if there are just a few of them. Why do you think people have "healthy" fish for months and then without adding anything new, ich suddenly reappears in the tank? Where was it during that time before the outbreak? The parasite can't go dormant for any considerable length of time.

[Zoom]

My 200G reef tank had ick for almost ten years now .
Every time the fish get excessively stress out the Ick come back very strong.
After my large RBTA spawned in my tank about a month a go the O2 when down to almost nothing after doing 100% water change in a week two fish start to show ick spots just keep in mind this tank had nothing put in there for many years, some of this fish is in this tank more than ten years and still carry the ick parasite.
Now the parasites multiplying every two weeks and i see more and more ick spots on more and more fish i only use garlic soaked foods and keep my water pristine clean.
I had ick outbreak in this tank almost every year and always goes away, May be i'm just been lucky so far .

You think this will stress the fish out ???
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125109-08-05_002__Medium_.jpg

[mymazda6]

so does using a UV sterilizer help get rid of ick?..what does a UV do for Ick?

[wakeboarder2342]

Ok heres the update,

I finally got a refractometer and setup a 30 gallon quarantine. I was able to catch my powder blue and yellow tangs.

I dropped the SG to 1.011 over a period of time. Anyway now 1 day later the powder blues ich has all turned from white to black. has anyone experianced this before? how long does hypo generally take to kill the ich? and what is the ideal SG? ive heard anything from 1.011 to 1.009?

also a side note my refractometer said to calibrate with distilled water, i calibrated with RODI water which i assumed would be as good or better then distilled?


My last questions is, i still have the following fish in the tank, a sailfin tang that shows signs of ich, a goby, a blenny, 3 chromis, and a foxface that all look fine with no spots of ich,

my question is if i do not remove these fish will the ich still be present in the tank? I had a heck of a time catchign the 2 fish i was able to catch, and the smaller ones will be even worse. I would hate to put the fish back in the tank only to have them reinfected.

any info is appreciated

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by jamesbburgess
Kick Ich has never been proven to do anything for ich. As far as I know, that statement is completely accurate. In part 2 of my article on ich, I simply relayed that I had used Kick-Ich and it seemed to work when I used it for teice as long as the manufacturer recommends, but that is far from proof that it works. It is simply an anecdotal observation.

Furthermore, since I wrote that article, I have done some experiments on the 'reef-safe' claims of several of these medications. The entire article should be published in Reefkeeping in the following months and I also presented the results in my MACNA presentation this year, but suffice to say Xenia exposed to Rally, made by the same Kick-Ich people, died.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by jamesbburgess
how long does hypo generally take to kill the ich? and what is the ideal SG? ive heard anything from 1.011 to 1.009?


Hypo doesn't kill the ich on the fish .. it disrupts the ich cycle by preventing ich from hatching and further infecting the fish. The ich on the fish should fall off naturally within a week.

Hyposalinity is generally defined as a salinity between 12-14 which is about 1.009 depending on your tank temperature.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by jamesbburgess

also a side note my refractometer said to calibrate with distilled water, i calibrated with RODI water which i assumed would be as good or better then distilled?


You should always use distilled water when calibrating a refractometer.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by jamesbburgess
Ok

My last questions is, i still have the following fish in the tank, a sailfin tang that shows signs of ich, a goby, a blenny, 3 chromis, and a foxface that all look fine with no spots of ich,

my question is if i do not remove these fish will the ich still be present in the tank? I had a heck of a time catchign the 2 fish i was able to catch, and the smaller ones will be even worse. I would hate to put the fish back in the tank only to have them reinfected.


If one fish has ich it would be prudent to assume that all fish have ich. The only way to insure that your tank is "ich free" is to QT and treat all fish for ich ... then leave the show tank without fish for a sufficient period to allow the ich within the show tank to naturally die off (ich needs a fish to continue its life cycle).... many would suggest leaving the tank fallow for 5-6 weeks.

Heres a link discussing ich ... note the diagram which outlines the ich cycle.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

[dntx5b9]

Can fish get ich from snails? I added two turbos in my tank (almost three months old) last week and now my fish have ich. I have 2 clowns and a royal gramma. All my fish have been in the tank for over 6 weeks. Can the snails have introduced ich in my tank? Also, what is the difference between FW and SW ich? FW ich is pretty easy to get rid of, but it appears that SW ich is a whole another story...

[Steven Pro]

It is possible that the cyst stage could have been attached to the shells of your snails or the parasite could have been in one of its free-swimming stages and in the shipping water with the snails or it is possible that they were always there on the fish and simply undetected in low numbers as this infestation geared up.

FW Ich is easy to cure because there is usually nothing else in the tank that is bothered by the medication. Plastic plants and castles could care less about malachite green. But, in many saltwater displays, you have other life (such as shrimp, snails, crabs, etc.) that does not tolerate the medication. SW Ich is easy to cure in proper quarantine tanks that don't have these other life forms.

[Kinetic]

There are so many posts, i just decided to post this, sorry if anyone said anything about this already:

Garlic will help fight it. If you soak everything in SeaChem garlic guard etc... it will slowly help fight bacteria. Or if you get food that has garlic already, that will be good too.

You know garlic doesn't realy taste "garlicy" until it is penetrated? It's it's own defense against bacteria. So that garlic taste is actually produced by a chemical reaction when you actually puncture it, either by eating, slicing, etc.

So garlic, in theory, should help fight ich =) It's also known to help prevent cancer in humans, along with cultured foods like kim chee and brocoli sprouts.

[Steven Pro]

koden,

You might be interested to read this regarding garlic, Garlic: What Has Been Studied Versus What Has Been Claimed (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php)

[jbanks]

Originally posted by mymazda6
so does using a UV sterilizer help get rid of ick?..what does a UV do for Ick?

Both UV and Ozone will help when the Ich is in the water column. However, neither is effective when it is dormant in the sand or on your fish.

The Idea with either UV or ozone is that neither will rid your tank of the parasite however, they will help to control the amount of parasites and bacterial infections in your tank thus, giving your fish a better chance of survival. With UV, your flow rate has to be slow enough to be effective.


IME, I have witnesed that healthy well fed fish can fight ich to the point where they become immune. I have a gold rim tang, which has the reputation of being an ich magnet. When I first introduced him to my tank, the reputation quickly became a reality. He had bumps under his skin and had visible signs of ich within one week of placing him in my tank. Thankfully, he kept his appetetite and began eating more and more. I watched my tank parameter very closely to make sure that I did what I had to in order to keep the tank clean with the heavy feedings.

Eventually, all visible signs of ich disappered and the glodrim is happy and fat. I was able to decrese feeding with no ill effect. Is the parasite still there? Probably so, but definitely under control.

[Rondelet]

My apologies for coming into this post late, but there is some very interesting discussion here! I have a question, but first a couple of comments/observations…

I agree with the previous posters that under the right conditions (good water quality, good nutrition, water changes, a couple of cleaner shrimps) your fish can develop immunity to ich and it will "go away". However, I don't think it every really goes away as immune or tolerant fish will act as carriers. Thus, you may not see a single white spot for a long time, perhaps years, but a stressful event could bring on a outbreak seemingly out of nowhere.

I also agree with the previous posters that hyposalinity is effective, but is, IMO, a very risky treatment to manage and will stress the hell out of your invertebrates. Further, even if correctly applied I'm not convinced it's 100% effective. One alternative to consider here is to give your fish a course of metronidazole administered via the feed. Incidentally, the active ingredient in Kick Ich (5-nitroimidazole) is the precursor used to make metronidazole. However, I would not advise using either as treatments that are added to the water as these chemicals have the potential to after bacteria in your biological filter. My personal view on Kick-Ich and other related compounds such as metronidazole, and treatments such as hyposalinity, is that they will weaken the parasite and other factors such has husbandry and fish immunity come into play. However, like all chemicals used to treat infectious diseases it's highly unlikely that it's 100% effective in selectively "eradicating" ich from your system. Also, with any medication and especially antibacterial/antiprotozol you must step up water quality monitoring and be prepared for you filter to crash and your tank to start cycling.

Now for the reason of my post…

Question to Greenbean and Stuart: you cited research to effect that without new introductions of the parasite an existing population will weaken and potentially die out. I find this a very interesting observation. Do either of you (or anyone else) have a reference or literature citation you could post. I find it hard to believe that a parasite such as this would attenuate itself in this manner, but then, hey, anything is possible in a closed system.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by Rondelet
Now for the reason of my post…

Question to Greenbean and Stuart: you cited research to effect that without new introductions of the parasite an existing population will weaken and potentially die out. I find this a very interesting observation. Do either of you (or anyone else) have a reference or literature citation you could post. I find it hard to believe that a parasite such as this would attenuate itself in this manner, but then, hey, anything is possible in a closed system. I believe that comes from ATJ and his reading of the following paper:

Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1994. A standardized method for the in vivo maintenance of Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) using the grey mullet Chelon labrosus as an experimental host. Journal of Parasitology 80:288-292.

Here is the relavent excerpt from his webpage, http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.

The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present. "

[wakeboarder2342]

Just an update for those that may be interested,

i have had my powder blue and yellow tangs in a 30 gallon hypo at 1.010 for over a week now, they are both eating fine, with the exception of 1 night my powerfilter died and the ph dropped to 7.8 and they were breathing very heavily until i broght it back up!! all the spots on the powder blue have dissappeard now and he looks as healthy as ever. im feeing them a ton of nori as the powder blue would never eat anything else.

now for the most interesting observation, when i removed the powder blue and the yellow tangs, i had a sailfin tang that i mentioned in the above postings that had ich as bad as i have ever seen, i mean nearly totally covered. however my water quality is perfect (dispite zero water changes but thats another story!!) and he has still been eating fine with no labored breathing ect, now for the crazy part, just as the ich was getting into its worst part of the cycle, prob 5-6 days after inital signs, i was watching the tank and i have a small green chromis, i thought he was attacking the sailfin but after closer observation he was EATING THE ICH!! i watched him do this for over 20 min each time eating the ich off of the sailfin!! i know this sounds crazy but i saw it with my own eyes!! now 2 days later the sailfin shows zero signs of ich! i know with the lifecycle of the parasite it probably reached the point of dropping off but i know for 100% that the chromis was picking it off of the sailfin!!

anyway we are now about 3 weeks since i first saw signs, going on 2 weeks of quarantine which i will continue for probably another 3 weeks to be sure.

thanks for all the input, ill keep you all posted.

[MCary]

Sorry if I'm hijacking your post James but I have a question. I have a Hippo and a Purple Tang that have Ich. I'm going to set up a QT and hope I can catch them.

So assuming I can and I treat them and the Ich is cured, what happens when I put them back in the tank. I have 10 other fish in the tank and the transfer surely is going to stress them a little. Are they just going to get it again?

[Steven Pro]

James,

It is not uncommon for a variety of fishes to perform cleaning duties. We typically think of wrasses, gobies and shrimp, but damsels, porkfish, angelfish, and probably others do this as well.

MCary,

The only way to be 100% sure you get rid of the parasite is to remove and treat all the fishes. Only taking out the ones that appear infected will permit the parasite to continue to reproduce and thrive on the fish left in the display.

[Rondelet]

Steve, Many thanks for the reference I will go dig it out.

In our lab we routinely create master bacterial seeds of pathogens, but must do this by recovering them from dead fish effectively selective the highly virulent strains. These can then be stored frozen for future use to ensure that pathogenicy results are consistent. I'm not sure how this translates to an ectoparasite such as Cryp, but the more I read on it the more it makes sense. I'm also aware of a similar thing with a virus of salmon. However, virus, bacterial and protozoans are all very different and it may be very species or population specific. In human medicine, recent studies have shown that some viruses are known to be held in check by the immune system, often for years once immunity is acquired. When the immune system is then compromised, for whatever reason, what is found is that often the debilitating infection was not something newly acquired, but from a pathogen already present in the system. Food for though where the management of Cypt is concerned.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by Rondelet
Steve, Many thanks for the reference I will go dig it out. You might also want to read:

Yoshinaga, T. & H.W. Dickerson. 1994. "Laboratory Propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans on a Saltwater-Adapted Poecilia Hybrid, the Black Molly" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:197-201, 1994.

In the Burgess & Matthews paper from a few posts back, they were unable to maintain and infestation for longer than 34 cycles. Based on their estimate of 10 days per cycle, they did not quite reach one year. They then theorized that aging cell lines may have something to do with it. But, Yoshinaga & Dickerson were able to keep their infestations going for over two years.

[BPS]

Has anyone tried Polyp Lab Medic Parasite Treatment? I've heard good things about it but wanted to check if any RC members had any experienced with this for fighting Ich.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/details/medicine.php?product_ID=plb-medic1

[maro1]

I gave in! took all of the fish out. QT'd, copper and now all fish are back in display parasite free and happy.

Maro1:rollface:

[currentking]

i tried kick ich in my 65g. I have not had a proble for over 2 years, now I put a powder blue in the tank and waalaaa, now It has ich. it had about 30 dots on him before kick ich and now after kick ich it has about 80. No other fish have visible signs. Im not sure what to do now. I have raised my temp to 84 and put garlic in the tank and its stil there, now all I do is pray to the fish gods.

[maro1]

Current king

The fish Gods won't anwser! There trusting you will QT all the fish and treat them properly. You will be farther ahead if you just do it.

Maro1:rollface:

[Zoom]

My large Emperor that i have for almost four years now it started to eat all my corals in my reef tank . About four weeks a go i saw him sleeping in the corner of the tank so i use my large net and got him out and in to my FOWLR tank hi went.
I have two large fish in that tank so one more fish was no problem .
Now this tank had no fish in this tank for three + years .
I put the angel in there no problem at all for a week no fighting no nothing everyone is eating and having a good time .
Now the week two i saw some spots not many but i know from before the fish was already infected with ick.
Now week five i install a 30W UV and feeding garlic every time i feed them, it is a 8" Clown trigger and 9" Tusk and the Emperor in there so far don't look good , today the Angel did not eat .
I'm just ride it out this way till the parasites come off the fish and see the outcome, i have a back up plan but i will not use it till is no other way ..
Ps, it was no fish but some new coral put in the reef tank about a month a go no other fish got the ick in the reef tank.

[mavgi]

Zoom


what type of food you feed your fish ?

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9965608#post9965608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
Zoom


what type of food you feed your fish ?
I feed mostly large Formula one and two marine large pellets now so i can soak the garlic in to the food, but i usually feed the fish frozen formulas, pellets, dry marine green algae and flake foods.

[mavgi]

i have 16 fish in my 120 gallon tank include 4 angle (imperator , queen ,Rock Beauty , flame ) when i put them in the tank after 3 days they eat like my other fish without any problem (and they eat like pigs).

i have also QT and stop to quarantine fish i put in the tank few month ago red margine fairy wrasse with ich (i don't suggest it to no one i take my risk...) and after 2 week the fish was free of ick till now (maybe it's exist and i don't argue about that but it's fact in my tak) .

when i add my queen angle in the tank my yellow tang was chasing him and the fish got "Lymphocystis" all over his body (my water parameter in the tank perfect) i also take the risk here and didn't quarantine the fish as you know there's no medication to treat it and it's can take some month till the fish will (if he will make it) cure from that , it's take 2 week to the fish to be total clean from it after the chasing gone.

i decide not to quarantine the fish because he was big and i didn't believe in my small tank he will make it , i know that i take a big risk also my QT still run from the day first till now but i find out that the food i make and the way i feed help to keep my fish healty (and it's a lot fish for this tank size) and they cure quick , i also use vitamine and i know that some ppl said it's just mix stuff but any fish i put in my system get grow and healty .

here is how i make my fish food :
one bag of Formula one
one bag of angel formula
one bag of mysis shrimp
one bag of silverside
one bag of frozen clam
one bag of krill

i mix all together in mixer and make it like 1mm size grain i add to it spectrum thera formula , spectrum marine formula , blue lagon anti - parasite formula (i am not sure if this formula real work but i add it) .

now the vitamine part :) i add to all this mixing :

2 oz vita chem
1 oz zoecon
1 oz selcon
2 oz garlic extreme
2 oz marine c

i mix all together and put this mixin food in 5 or 6 small ziplock bag and freeze it for 24 hour , after that i have food for one month and i feed very heavy 2 time a day , i also put on 2 clip every day 6 piece of different seaweeds sock with vitamine.

i know it's a lot but i hear that a lot of ppl have problem to feed angle fish and in my system they eat like crazy , i also vizit a RC member at home and he have problem to feed his fish i give him piece from my food (3" square ) and he told me that his fish love the food and eat it quick i am still not quarantine fish and week ago i put the rock beauty in my tank after 2 days the fish start to eat like a pig .

i know that a lot of ppl will not agree with that and they will tell me "things" that i know and read a lot.... but in the past when i did quarantine fish with ich i have success and lose to now it's about 7 month when i changed the food and feeding type i don't have any problem with my fish the healty and grow very quick , the only problem i will have now to change them because the size of the tank will be to small for them .

[Zoom]

My fish is not new i have all this fish over three years i feed my fish very much one of my freezer shelf is full of fish food .
This fish was in my care from a little babes .
I have not put any fish in my tanks for many years .
I do quarantine always so where this Ick come from this fish got Ick from the stress of moving the Emperor from the reef to the FOWLR tank it was not harass or nipped on from the other fish so why Ick now? i do have mix different type of food together and feed to the fish but i can not do that to my reef with SPS is just to much nutrients .
This morning the Angel eat some food the Trigger eat a big shrimp the tusk never stop eating yet , i think if i don't get panicky and live things along the fish will fight this one on there own .....I hope.

[mavgi]

yes they will fight this one on there own , and if he was infect already with ich the strees will show sign of ich as you said and maybe some of the water that was on the new coral was transfer with ich to the system ,i know you have a lot of experience and you know what to do and i am very interesting to know if the fish cure from that or if you treat him , if he will cure from that alone then good feeding help him to fight against the ich . some ppl said the UV help them to cure ich and some said it's never help. in the past years i was test a low flow with uv and i saw "reduce" of ich in the system and even some fish was total cure but some still have it , because of that i can't said it is kill the ich in 100% , when i changed the fedding way it's total gone .

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9968047#post9968047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
yes they will fight this one on there own , and if he was infect already with ich the strees will show sign of ich as you said and maybe some of the water that was on the new coral was transfer with ich to the system ,i know you have a lot of experience and you know what to do and i am very interesting to know if the fish cure from that or if you treat him , if he will cure from that alone then good feeding help him to fight against the ich . some ppl said the UV help them to cure ich and some said it's never help. in the past years i was test a low flow with uv and i saw "reduce" of ich in the system and even some fish was total cure but some still have it , because of that i can't said it is kill the ich in 100% , when i changed the fedding way it's total gone .


What is so strange the fish on the reef have no ick at all that is where all the corals when in to .
So I may said my reef tank always had ick but the fish was immune to it but when I move the Angel the stress from moving the fish to a different tank , the parasites take over the tank/fish.
The one thing i notice from before is many times if I take the fish out of the tank for treatment in a different tank when they had the parasites on them most of the time the fish will die .
Now if the UV and garlic I put in the tank help some, the fish eventually will get immune to the ICK parasites ..I hope. I think this is the fourth parasite cycle so the parasites should start to get weak soon .
I let you know the outcome of it all .

[heuerfan]

Zoom- Two months ago i lossed some of my favorite fish to secondary bacterial infections which started because of ich. I was unable to take them out and QT so i decided to feed them well, garlic, selcon, etc... But i failed to keep water quality prestine, and because of this i believe this is the reason why they weren't able to fight off the ich on their own.

I did not add any new fish until a month ago and as soon as i did, that fish was covered with ich big time! So i decided to install a 25 watt UV on my 125 gallon tank and make sure i kept up with my water quality. That fish is still around as of today with no signs of ich. I'm sure the ich is still present but with the addition of the UV and maintaining water quality i think is why its still alive.

Water quaility is so important, sadly i wish i realized this when i first got the out break, it was a very tough loss for me.

Good luck with your imperator i'm sure he will pull thru in your FOWLR.

-Steven

[Zoom]

I know water quality is very important I have my FOWLR tank set up just like reef tank I have a 851 Deltec skimmer ozone ad Now UV I do monthly water changes and I siphoned the BB clean very often it is not much more I can do I kept everything in check I test the tank water with high tech equipment so water quality is there.
I even have a ATO system so the salinity dos not very at all in this tank . But they still got ICK .

[heuerfan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9969536#post9969536 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zoom
I know water quality is very important I have my FOWLR tank set up just like reef tank I have a 851 Deltec skimmer ozone ad Now UV I do monthly water changes ad siphoned the BB clean often it is not much more I can do I kept everything in check I test the tank
water with high tech equipment so water quality is there.
I even have a ATO system so the salinity do not very at all on that tank . But they still got ICK .

Okay good luck. Ich is defintely a pain in the butt. Would you consider doing hypo on your FOWLR if the garlic and uv don't help?

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9969573#post9969573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by heuerfan
Okay good luck. Ich is defintely a pain in the butt. Would you consider doing hypo on your FOWLR if the garlic and uv don't help?


That will kill the live rock and with all the die off the ammonia will kill the fish in no time. I try this about four years a go in my quarantine tank ......no good.
If UV and garlic don't work i will get the fish out of the tank and treated in a different tank.

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9969573#post9969573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by heuerfan
Okay good luck. Ich is defintely a pain in the butt. Would you consider doing hypo on your FOWLR if the garlic and uv don't help?

you and peperez was in my house and saw how my fish look like...

some of them got ich before and i decide not to treat them in my QT , in the past i did it and you saw also my QT still run but i decide to take the risk because in the past when i did it some of the fish die as zomm said " when you move the fish out of the tank for treatment in a different tank when they had the parasites on them most of the time the fish will die " and peperez also saw my queen angle with the lympo to ....

i decide to keep them and feed them 2 time day with the food i make also i change every week 10-15% of water in the system and try to keep the tank with goood water parameter i believe if i was taking out my queen angle or other fish to my QT they was die because they to big for that 20 gallon tank and it was very hard to keep in this small tank good water quality , the nitrate will sike up easy and the fish was getting very quick bacterial infection to and after that velvet ... so i decide or to loose all or to try to let them cure alone . you know how they look like...
ZOOM i suggest if you can try to do more water change to reduce the ich from the water . here it's my queen free from the lymop and he was total cover of it and in 2 week he was cure .

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/IMG_1254.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/IMG_1257.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/IMG_1272.jpg

[Zoom]

ZOOM i suggest if you can try to do more water change to reduce the ich from the water
Water changes well this is BB FOWLR tank so i started to do weekly 30G water changes with siphoned the bottom the same time.
All three fish doing ok the Emperor is the worst he just don't like any thing on his body at all .
They eat some shrimp tonight and they swimming around i will try to do a water change more often i was thinking to up the ozone in to the skimmer from 50Mg to 100Mg i will see in a day or two when the next stage of Parasites hatch how bad it still is and if no change i will go to stage two .
Stage two all the rock is coming out of the tank and i start to do dally water changes after adding copper and formalin in to the water i really don't like to do this that angels don't like copper at all and it may kill him.
I hope the parasites are been killed by the UV... I know not all but enough so the fish can fight this on there own.
Very nice queen mavgi one of my favorite fish .
My next move after all this is over, i will take the sump refuge out and put a WD filter for a sump and with LR in the tank so if something like this occurs again i can take the rock out and treat/medicate the tank with no problem.

[mavgi]

Zoom , i hope you will not go over all this ......

if you decide to do that i just can suggest you :

to treat the fish in 5 gallon bucket with the formalin and not to put it in the tank (after you can put the fish in the tank again)
about the cooper , i try that way in the past on my 120 gallon tank and it's very hard to keep the cooper level in this size of tank . the cooper evaporate from the water from morning to night and i find my self dose all the time cooper to the system with no success to control on the right cooper level for good treatment .
also as you know good cooper treatment need to be at least 21 day almost same time as hypo and less stress to the fish , i think hypo in this case will be better.

for the vitamin add to the food , i will dose not just garlic , every time you feed change the vitamin use some : vitachem , vitamine c , zoecon to help to enhance the immune system of the fishes and to keep the fish eating all the time .

when i mix some vitamin to the food the change in the fish body shown quick.

[Beemo]

i used kick ick and not only did it NOT get rid of the ick but it killed all my fish.
i followed directions, dosed properly, day one things were ok, a few days later the ick got worse..repeated dose, fish couldnt breathe, fish all dead by morning

dead fish still with ick on them...the stuff is garbage

[Zoom]

So far UV/Ozone help the fish still they have Ick but the # are down they are all eating and doing better ............................garlic did nothing ,UV and ozone help to minimize the ick but not completely gone yet .
Beemo
I lost i whole tank of fish using this Kick kill fish . Like you all my fish die but not from the Ick.

[Beemo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9990756#post9990756 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zoom
So far UV/Ozone help the fish still they have Ick but the # are down they are all eating and doing better ............................garlic did nothing ,UV and ozone help to minimize the ick but not completely gone yet .
Beemo
I lost i whole tank of fish using this Kick kill fish . Like you all my fish die but not from the Ick.

terrible, that stuff should be taken off the market :mad2: