Monti-eating nudibranchs?

[melev]

Could these be Montipora eating nudibranchs perhaps? I tried my best to get a picture of these. They are the size of fleas or smaller. Maybe lice-sized.

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudis.jpg

I saw a few in a group a few days ago, and now there is a larger patch of these in one section and this grouping is separate. If they are, what is the preferred removal method? Tweezers?

[MIKE NY]

It's hard to tell from the pic, but they could be. I saw a few in my tank a few months ago and I got a yellow wrasse(halichoeres chrysus)...haven't seen one since and all my montis are fine now. Do a search there are plenty of ways to eradicate them...good luck.

[ctxmonitor]

Yup, that is definitely those *&(#$ little bug.. Its gonna be hard to completely remove from the system once they are introduced. Maybe only completely removing and QT the tank without montipora for a few months..

[melev]

It is in my frag tank, so that isn't an issue. I have a Lemon Meringue Wrasse in my reef, so I could remove all I can see, then put it in my tank and let Dole take care of 'em. ;)

Thanks for the quick replies. I hope to get a better picture of them in the future for my ID page.

[tangwang]

Melev, make sure and look closely for egg patches as well. they are usually in the same area as where the nudi is feeding....



Matt

[melev]

Thanks for the tip! I hope those are roughly the same color?

[tangwang]

They are much smaller than the adult nudi's, and very hard to see. I've seen them grey colored, and maybe a shade of dirty green. Not sure what color to label the eggs exactly, lol, but they appear in groups. I've scraped what looked to be 20 or more eggs off of the same spot smaller than the size of a pencil eraser... here (http://www.reeffarmers.com/tracygraynudi01.htm) is a halfway descent pic I found. Scroll down to the next to last pic..


Matt

[melev]

I'll go work on that coral now, rather than later.

[tangwang]

Added a link for you in my last post Marc ;)



Matt

[melev]

That's awesome, and looks precisely like what I've got. I better read it now. Thanks!

[MiddletonMark]

Marc - I just saw one on my glass this morning, and shot this series of grainy, poor photos.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/567/28196monti-nudis-med.jpg

Don't mess around, they're terrible.
I first figured out what I was seeing on this cap I've had for a few years ... they had eaten mostly the part I couldn't see from the front - and I dipped/scrubbed, but too late for this one.
I've decided to keep it whole, dead ... and eventually get a frag of a frag back.

But it's my cautionary tale, the largest coral I've lost in this hobby :(

Before:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/555/28196monti_plating.jpg
After:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/555/28196nudi_casualty.jpg

Remove them today, death to the little buggers:uzi:

[wrassie86]

If there in a Q tank,you can always try red/blue leg hermits(Not scarlets).and not feed them.its amazing the array of things they will eat if they have no other food source.Ive seen mine eat monti nudis and red bugs.But thats a bare tank with only the hermits and infected corals.And its not overnight it takes alittle time.

Good Luck.

Mark
thats a shame,that was a very nice piece.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by wrassie86
thats a shame,that was a very nice piece.
This sort of unfortunate circumstance exactly the reason why I frag things :D I'm pretty sure I can get this exact cap back again ... though might go with a different one next time.

Thanks for the reminder to frag my newer Acropora. Better a slightly smaller piece to grow out and a very happy friend than the possibility to never have that coral again.


Hopefully my sad pictures will have the next person who finds the nudis and reads this thread moving quickly to eradicate them.

[wrassie86]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark


Thanks for the reminder to frag my newer Acropora. Better a slightly smaller piece to grow out and a very happy friend than the possibility to never have that coral again.



Yup,i agree.as i'm getting more and more nice pieces.and wanted to do the same thing.But seems people i have met with stable tanks are having problems of there own.weather it be r bugs,nudi's,flatworms.I ve been running problem/pest free and stable for several months(knocks on wood).But its about time, as i battled just about everything for the previous year.:D

[melev]

Just got finished looking in my frag tank with a flashlight and was disappointed to find those nudibranchs on multiple corals. So I'm going to treat the tank with Oomed as recommended in that article.

The only livestock is corals, and a single Peppermint Shrimp and perhaps a tiny pistol shrimp, as well as stomatella, some astreas, and lots of tiny baby brittle stars. Will these items die during treatment, or should I try to pull out all that I can find?

Now that I know what I'm looking at, I think I see eggsacs everywhere, so I'd rather treat the tank rather than doing a dip method. Unless I dip everything into a 5g bucket full of medicated soup! :)

[melev]

Alright, I decided I need to try to pluck off a few and quickly realized how hard they are to remove with my current forceps. Maybe some very sharp tweezers would do the trick. I saw eggs too. UGH!

Anyway, you know I love to take a picture of this stuff, so here are 17 images for your consideration. They were put into a tiny tiny jelly (sampler) jar, which was then placed on top of a regular jelly jar (Bon Maman is the brand if that helps give you a sense of scale) and put one of my 5100K refugium bulbs next to the jars for some lighting. Now that you see the size of the 'studio', I do hope this helps you realize how small these are.

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi5.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi2.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi3.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi4.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi6.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi7.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi8.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi9.jpg

[melev]

That is the tip of my index finger on the side of the glass, to give you an idea of the size of this little guy.
http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi1.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi10.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi11.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi12.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi13.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi14.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi15.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi16.jpg

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/05/11/monti_nudi17.jpg

[MiddletonMark]

Fantastic pictures, Marc.

So much more than I can do on my camera - and others as well.

Best of luck on the treatment!

[melev]

Thanks Mark. I hope I can get rid of them, and wish I'd noticed them much sooner.

[tangwang]

Great Pics! Those are some of the best I've seen of those dreaded nudis! Let us know how the treatment goes (I know you will). I don't know if I hsve the cojones to treat the entire tank, but if I did, I'd pull anything other than monti's out of there, including snails, shrimp hermits.........



Matt

[melev]

That is what I was thinking. The more I looked, the more I found a few hours ago. Argh. I saw a couple on the acrylic, under a coral. Using forceps, I tried to pluck them off and put them in the jar, and discovered little white eggs there too! Great, they are happily breeding.

The good news is this is just a frag tank and I could basically toss out everything and start anew, but I'd rather destroy these pests and keep the frags growing.

Another plus is I know what I'm looking for now, so I can inspect the corals closely before moving any to my reef.

[tangwang]

I know you'll be glad when this nightmare is over. makes you wish you had redbugs instead, huh:lol:



Matt

[tld]

Great pictures Marc! Thanks for sharing. Looks like you've got yourself a pretty nasty infestation of the buggers. IME, they are tough to get rid of because they are so easily overlooked, especially in a reef tank. You are lucky that yours are in a frag tank where you can easily take everything out and inspect daily until you get rid of them. Good luck!

[melev]

If any of y'all have a source for Oomed, please let me know. Or a tiny laser. :D

[ol'reefer]

Marc,

I am going through the same thing. Unfortunately, this is in my main display. My Purple Reef Chromis eat them when they are free floating, but don’t directly take them off the coral. I am siphoning them off, but I have a feeling I am not getting the majority of them. I have very large colonies of Plating Montipora (24" +), so removal is not an option. These things have to have a natural predator, so I am going to look into other ways of removing them. On a side note, I have not added a coral to my system in quite a while, so these guys have been in my system for a while, but I never noticed any damage until last week.... :(

[melev]

Uh oh. Well, one thread told me to put a Yellow Coris Wrasse in the tank to eat the. I do have a hungry peppermint shrimp that may consume some.

I really think I'll have to end up dipping all the pieces.

[ol'reefer]

I wonder if Interceptor would work?

[gobygoby]

Stupid, stupid nudies......DIE!!!
http://www.kbellair.com/montis.JPG

[dirtyreefer]

Originally posted by ol'reefer
I wonder if Interceptor would work?

It doesn't, but I sure wish it did!

[just dave]

I just went through this and I had not added anything in months prior to this.

I thought about trying to get a handle on 'em with the yellow wrasse but there where so many montis with so many places that a fish couldn't access that I just pulled all the montis out and dipped them. I'll leave 'em out indefinitely.

[otolith]

That sucks about the nudis. They do look like really interesting creatures. Too bad that wreak such havoc.

[BobB]

Has anyone tried and been successful at getting these nudibranchs under control by lowering the temp of their tank? In talking about treating acro flatworms, some believe that lowering the temp to 76-77 helps. Haven't tried it myself; just curious.

Bob

[gobygoby]

my tank stays at 78. unfortunatly, they still live:(

[melev]

I siphoned out about 50 of them last night, and got a few more pictures. :D However, I saw lots of eggs and they don't siphon off.

And anywhere I saw two of them together, I found eggs. That's surprising, as I would have figured they'd lay eggs individually rather than needing a mate. Maybe it was coincidence, but that is what I observed.

[ShallowWaters]

One encouraging dip treatment being discussed is pharmacy bought providone iodine 1 ML to 100 ML H20 for three minutes. Most adults are affected, but the eggs are not. Thus repeated dips every couple days are required. It's a good idea t so soak the dipped coral in fresh saltwater to remove excess iondine before it is returned to the main system.

Unfortunately, this treatement is not a whole tank answer and only treats the removed coral. Clearly, the nudibranchs spread out on surfaces hunting for new corals and this makes multiple treatments necessary and short term unless you get lucky. That is, corals can be quickly invaded by free-traveling nudi's.

[melev]

Thanks for your input. I have a peppermint shrimp in the frag tank, and don't feed the tank anything. All the eggs on one coral vanished. I don't know if they hatched and crawled away, or if they were consumed.

Tomorrow I'm getting a bottle of Oomed from a club member so I'l be treating the corals and hopefully erradicate these pests. I also have about 25 more pictures on my harddrive that I'll be looking at to see if any more need to be added to this thread.

[ShallowWaters]

fwiw, peppermints never made an impact during my infestation. Neither did six line wrasses added to my frag tank and left hungry. Eggs seem to hatch rapidly. If you don't remove the eggs right away, they seem to be gone next time you look. Good luck & please let us know how you do with Oomed. Maybe we can get somebody to produce/sell it again?

[tooshay]

FWIW, I took Eric Borneman's advise and called the director of the Omaha zoo (Mitch Carl), who has battled and studied these horrid nudis in their tanks. He said the only thing that has been found effective in the eradication of them is a sheep dewormer called Levamisole (sp?) He said it doesn't kill them, but paralyzes
them and they can be easily blown off with a powerhead. The piece has to be isolated in a separate bucket, and soak for several hours. It has to be repeated as the new eggs hatch. Oomed is a quinine based medication that is no longer available in the US, but will work on these nasties if you can get ahold of some. I FINALLY got rid of them after they destroyed most of my montis. Good luck!

[Travis]

Originally posted by melev

Tomorrow I'm getting a bottle of Oomed from a club member so I'l be treating the corals and hopefully erradicate these pests.

Marc, does this person have a US source for Oomed? Or do they just happen to have an old bottle laying around? Either way, consider yourself lucky for finding some.:)

[MiddletonMark]

That's what I was thinking, Travis.

[melev]

Yes, it is a 3 yr old bottle that was never opened. I'm going to try dipping each piece tomorrow. I need re-read that article once more.

I heard it may be available in Canada and in Germany.

[Travis]

Well Marc, you pretty much have a bottle of gold.:D I would keep it locked up somewhere safe because I'm sure there are a lot of us out there that would do whatever it takes to get our hands on that bottle.:lol:

[Greg Hiller]

Word is that Oomed will not work, didn't seem to have any advantage for me, and I still have a stash of it. I read over Tracie's article as well, but I think I seem to have heard that she is no longer convinced that Oomed has any effect (if you search around for some of the older threads on this I think you will find the same info). At a high enough concentration it will work as a dip, but I think there are better options. The chances of it working as a whole tank treatment is very low IMO. There was a thread a while back where Mitch Carl described the treatment with Levamisole HCl which does work on the Montipora eating nudis, and apparently will also work for Acropora eating flatworms. The treatment was summed up in this thread on the BRS site:

http://216.235.242.50/forums/showthread.php?t=17217

I found a place that sells the Levamisole HCl. While I don't have either the Montipora eating nudis or the Acropora eating flatworms, I would like to occasionally add a new frag without excessive fear. Therefore I have a bottle on the way. The stuff will not kill eggs, so quarantine of new frags is still required.

http://www.americanlivestock.com/product_56_771.mhtml?rankMonths=null

I did have the Montipora eating nudi's in a frag tank a few months back. I used the iodine treatment that Mark (Shallowaters) mentioned. I wanted to save a buck and not use Lugol's, so I did a calculation based on the % active iodine in Lugols and in Provodine Iodine available frome the drug store. I came up with a formula of using 1 ml/100ml of tank water in a bath for 3 minutes (based on Mitch Carl's recommendations of Lugol's dip). This did seem to work for me. I dipped each frag then blew it off extensively with a turkey baster before adding back to the tank (to make sure they all fell off). The iodine treatment is pretty harsh. I found that while most Montipora's did fine (4 colors of M. digitata, and 4 colors of M. caps [probably M. foliosa]), I did notice that some of my purple M. caps faired poorly several weeks later. The nudi's were gone, but the tissue was damaged too much, and some of these colonies regressed a lot. This might have been do to the fact that the purple M. caps were the ones that the nudi's seemed to always gravitate towards, so these saw several dips.

FWIW, I was successful in eradicating the Montipora eating nudis in my frag tank (have not seen any in about 5 weeks, and I've been checking), and was lucky that the nudi's never made it to my main system(s). I still don't really know how I aquired the nudi's in the first place since I do not recall taking any Montipora frags from anyone in a very long time.

[ShallowWaters]

Greg's Provodine Iodine treatment, with repeated applications, seems to be effective. It does not instantly kill hatched nudi's, but their grip is loosened and they either fall off or can be blown off as suggested.

Greg, now that you mentioned your frag tank, I'll publicly thank you and give you credit without suggesting you ever had bugs. :)

Seachem also suggests a high dose of ReefDip make work for nudibranchs - with the caveat that their recommnended doses are known to be safe for most corals and they are not recommending higher doses.

[ol'reefer]

My corals are just too large to take out of the tank. So I have to siphon them off. My purple chromis' love to eat any free floating ones, but they will not pick them off the corals. I am really hoping to find a natural solution to this problem. What really annoys me is that the only coral that I have added in the past three months has been a blasto and I won that in a raffle......

One interesting thing I have noted with the ones that I have, they seem to be only going after my brown caps. They have not affected my orange, green, purple or any of the encrusting ones (Superman etc..) as of yet. Maybe they are saving them for a midnight snack. Bad humor, I know :)

[kabboord]

Hey Melev,
Do us all a favor, and pour some Calcium hydroxide or even better some lighter fluid into that jar and ignite it.
I hate those bastards.

[melev]

Nice. ;)

I siphoned out about 200 last night from the frag tank. Man, they are everywhere. I'm mixing up some new saltwater now, so that I can dip, treat, and rinse, plus have water change water on hand.

[ctxmonitor]

Marc, why are you having so many nudi? 200? Thats alot!! Do you have alot of montipora in the frag tank??

[palmer59]

Originally posted by melev
If any of y'all have a source for Oomed, please let me know. Or a tiny laser. :D

Here you go.

http://cgi.ebay.com/TE327-TETRA-MEDICA-GOLD-OOMED-1-01-FL-OZ_W0QQitemZ4324059916QQcategoryZ66792QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Mike

[palmer59]

Originally posted by melev
Nice. ;)

I siphoned out about 200 last night from the frag tank. Man, they are everywhere. I'm mixing up some new saltwater now, so that I can dip, treat, and rinse, plus have water change water on hand.

I added 3 Small Tailed Pencil Wrasse (Pseudojuloides cerasinus) a few months ago and the nudis were gone in a couple of days. Have not seen any since. These wrasses are supposed to be difficult to care for but so for I have not had a problem. The Yellow Coris Wrasse (Halichoeres chrysus) are supposed to work too.

Mike

[melev]

Thanks Mike. I just ordered two bottles from that link on Ebay while it was handy. I've never heard anyone ever refer to that type of wrasse. Since they are jumpers, it isn't exactly good for my frag tank but thanks for that additional option. I can get a Yellow Coris almost any day of the week, so that is another option. Right now that tank is fishless for a reason.

ctxmonitor - I had a few, then a few more, and then each group of them laid eggs and it is just out of hand. And yes, there are lots of monti frags in that tank. If I can't save them, I'll just cut my losses and restart with a fresh (better) setup, utilizing a sump and skimmer.

[just dave]

The problem I see with using fish is the Nudis stay hidden in the day and emerge at night so the fish are not out and about when the Nudis are. The bigger the colonies the more convoluted they will be with more nooks and crannies. The fish would help but I can't see them totally eliminating them. I don't imagine the Nudis evolved to be fish food.:p

[cooper9177]

h

[melev]

While at the LFS tonight, the owner was showing me how one of his M. digitatas were bleaching from the core upward. He didn't know why it was dying, and I looked at it and saw the pests immediately.

We used some TMPCC and dipped the coral for about 10 minutes or so. I used a turkey baster to blast off the nudis, looked for eggs and found none, so the coral went back in the tank.

[Serioussnaps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6053966#post6053966 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by otolith
That sucks about the nudis. They do look like really interesting creatures. Too bad that wreak such havoc.

They are not interesting, at all. You are with them, or you are with me!

[Serioussnaps]

For me TMPCC hasnt seemed to work very well on the nudis. I only have 1 cap(new tank and the first monti i received had them so i am not putting any more in there, call it a monti nudi killing tank) I have gone in and pulled out the monti COUNTLESS times brushing them off with a tooth brush. I try to remove the eggs(they are hard to get off) by scraping them with something sharp.

I did 125% the recommended dose of TMPCC on the nudis i pulled ofF the monti in a measuring cup. The smaller ones died within 10 minutes, however an hour later the big boys were still moving. After 2 hours they were dead. Problem is they get in the crevices and lay those eggs where we cant see them.

Right now i am trying a weekly TMPCC dip on the affected frag. I will post my results in the next month.( i am doing it slowly as the monti is doing very well surpisingly, probably because i keep removing the nudis)

I WONDER IF THERE ARE MONTIPORA EATING NUDIBRANCH EATING NUDIBRANCHES?

[menard]

Marc
The only fish really attack this barstards is Radiant Wrasse.
I had bad infestation a while back, this fish really helps w/ o ripping every montis in the tank., As long as u dont have any agresive fish in the tank that can attack this fish, so he can feel at home and comfortable and start working, you will be amaze, and watch this natural nudi preditor strike each one in the tank until U have no more.
The tank is nudi free until now..........thank god for this fish.:)

[johnnybravo234]

Little F(*(&*&ers! Im going to go check my montis now

[melev]

Thanks for the tip, Menard. I just sent a link of that fish to the LFS owner so he can consider it.

[castorpollux]

I used a toothbrush to brush off the eggs (in a bucket outside the tank!), superglue to "encase" the leftover monti's and the nudis and then a longer and stronger than normal lugols dip... I know that lugols doesn't kill them but it definitely helped a little being that I don't have them anymore and I battled them for nearly a year losing most of my best pieces before I went overkill as described above... I also added a small yellow coris wrasse, it seems that everything I did was enough because I've been "clean" now for nearly 6 monthes :). GOOD LUCK These things suck.. I have had every aquarium pest mentioned on this site it seems and the hardest to get rid of were the monti nudi's...

[npirate]

Great pics Marc.

I pulled one out of my tank yesterday.

http://gallery.10thlegion.com/gallery/d/5732-2/DSC_1991.JPG


I also have this stuff on one of my other corals.

http://gallery.10thlegion.com/gallery/d/5745-2/DSC_2001.JPG

But I'm not sure it is the same.

I lost my sixline wrasse last month, I'm wondering if he was keeping the nudi population in check.

They have a few nice lemon meringue wrasse at the LFS, think I'll stop by tonight and pick one up.

Any chance anyone have photos of the eggs?

[melev]

The "stuff" you pictured are two more. And if you took your picture and imagined it was a clock, look at the two white specks just below the coral's tissue at 5 o'clock. Those are two more tiny ones.

Siphon out all you can.

The eggs are what appears to be a "herd" of them in the very first post of this thread, as well as the only picture on page 2. They are <b>tiny</b> dots shaped similar to grains of rice.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6106132#post6106132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ol'reefer
One interesting thing I have noted with the ones that I have, they seem to be only going after my brown caps. They have not affected my orange, green, purple or any of the encrusting ones (Superman etc..) as of yet. Maybe they are saving them for a midnight snack. Bad humor, I know :)
IME, they seemed to really gravitate towards a couple.
When those were done, they became much less finicky eaters :(

I only had two varieties that seemed to taste bad to them - and still had some areas affected. Was able to `fight them off' of these with inspection, removal, heavy fragging - but that's a couple of over a dozen Monti varieties.

They're a PITA. I lost over a dozen varieties of Montipora in my most of a year-long battle with them.

FWIW, I've marked one LFS off due to these, as they were using a `natural cure' [wrasses] ... which left their tanks fine, without problems/symptoms - and my tank infected. If involved in fragging/trading, IMO a natural cure is questionable as you very well might pass them along further + be another vector for the pest.

[Neptune777]

I have been battling these guys for almost a year now....

Originally I pulled the montipora colonies from the display and dipped in 60PPM Levasole......it just stunned them and allowed me to blow off the ones I could see. I scrapped off all eggs I could find and then returned to the main tank. I did this for about 2 months on a weekly basis. After the first month I didn't see any more nudi's during the dips....So I felt safe ending the dips after month 2. All corals looked great for about 2 months and then.....I made the mistake one night by saying to my wife "I am so glad I decimated the little stinkers (not the word I used originally)" And wouldn't you know it the second the words left my mouth we noticed a monti nudibranch crawling on one of the rocks.......!@#$%^!@!@

At this point I started dips again using TMPCC and had poor results unless dosed extremely high (Expensive!)

So my new treatment scheme goes as follows (and I think I am actually killing them during the dips). I have reached the point of despiration and decided to perform a Hail Mary move and yanked all Monti's from the reef and put into QT and started dipping with 120PPM Levamisole for about 45min....:eek2:

I have done this many times now and the monti's show little to no stress.....their polyps are out within 15min after the dip, and all have held most of their colors (they are paler but not bleached)and none have died from the dips. I have indeed found dead nudibranchs in the bath when I was done.....I am doing the dips every three days because they seem to breed quickly and I am sure I didn't find any eggs....so they need to hatch and meet their maker.....

I will do this for a month or so and leave the main tank empty of Montis for several months. I will then introduce a canary into the coalmine (monti Frag) for a while to see if any nudi's somehow survived starvation before I put everything back.

[npirate]

UGGGHHH!!!

Thanks for pointing out the egg pics.

If you break them in half are they like star fish in that they will grow into two?

I've been picking them off with tweezers, I got about 30 of them last night. The Monti they are on has grown onto the surrounding rock so taking it out is not an option.

The eggs were a little tougher. I hit them witha tooth brush but I'm worried that I may be making the problem worse cause it is not easy to siphon them out.

I added a Lemon Meringue Wrasse last night, hopefully he will survive and start eating those little buggers.

I hope this does not turn into a year long event.

Keeping my fingers crossed.........GO LEMON WRASSE!, GO!

[Coralmex]

npirate.....

I gues it has been a couple of weeks with the lemon wrasse.... Any advance in ridding the nudis???????? At some of them???

[npirate]

Lemon wrasse didn't make it. My Clowns beat him up and he died from his wounds. :( i could not tell if he was eating them becasue he never really got acclimated to the tank.

However I have been making progress.

I've been picking them off with a tweezer. Their population is way down and they only re-appear after 4 or 5 days. Also i've noticed that when i am picking them off if I fan some water towards the coral with my hand they tend to come out a little more and they are easier to get. I sometimes use a turkey baster to blast it with some water also.

One of the two corals that was infested with them has made a 100% recovery and they have not re-appeared on it.

Also the one they have reappeared on has been recovering nicely. Many of the areas that were bare have grown back compeltely and there are only a few bare spots on it.

I'll be picking up another wrasse tomorrow. I also added about 25 very small blue leg hermit crabs and there are always one or two walking around on it. it's possible they are just picking off food.

Good luck, if the second lemon wrase works out I'll post to let you know.

[npirate]

Does anyone know if monti/acro crabs eat them? I was wondering if anyone has a monti that is hosting a crab and also has this problom? Just curious.


A few more pics. they seem to be making a come back.

http://gallery.10thlegion.com/gallery/d/5768-1/nudi-DSC_2041.jpg

http://gallery.10thlegion.com/gallery/d/5772-1/nudi-DSC_2052.jpg

http://gallery.10thlegion.com/gallery/d/5770-1/nudi-DSC_2042.jpg

[jaefei]

what is TMPCC ?

[melev]

Tropic Marin Pro Coral Cure.

[poknsnok]

they will never go away unless you remove all your montis.. TMPCC doesnt totally kill them in my experience either.. I got rid of mine by removing all mine to QT, dipping, (with tmpcc that seems to stun them and makes them easier to remove) scrubbing, observing, and blasting with a powerhead. after about 4 weeks I noticed none on the corals in the qt... and havent seen any since. one thing to note is that they wont attack all monti varieties, they prefer caps but wont mess with all caps. from my experience

[wastwage]

So they only attack Montis? What about Acros?

[MiddletonMark]

Only Montipora.

[RUBBAGAGOW]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8594698#post8594698 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by menard
Marc
The only fish really attack this barstards is Radiant Wrasse.
I had bad infestation a while back, this fish really helps w/ o ripping every montis in the tank., As long as u dont have any agresive fish in the tank that can attack this fish, so he can feel at home and comfortable and start working, you will be amaze, and watch this natural nudi preditor strike each one in the tank until U have no more.
The tank is nudi free until now..........thank god for this fish.:)

Radiant wrasse? Latin name? Link? Please help!

[npirate]

The second Wrasse is not doing well.

Once again the welcoming committee has not been kind to him.

You can see him in this photo getting sized up. I had to remove him to my refugium this morning. Poor little guy.

CLICK TO ENLARGE (http://gallery.10thlegion.com/gallery/v/nick/album20/welcoming+clowns+DSC_2102.jpg.html)
http://gallery.10thlegion.com/gallery/d/5835-2/welcoming+clowns+DSC_2102.jpg

[speckled trout]

I currently have 5 varieties of Plating Montis, 4 varieties of digitatas, and a fairly large orange whirling monti. Some of these are fairly large, but I also have quite a few frags of some of them. Pulling them all out would be a nightmare, and I'm sure I'd end up reducing them to ruble since most are glued to or already encrusted onto large rocks.

As of right now, a digitata and my larger whirling monti are the only two that I've actually observed the on. I first noticed them on the digitata as it is closer to the top and the front of the tank. It was a frag where the "branches" had become fused and formed a somewhat large irregular shaped chunk. Because of this, I attached it to the rocks laying sort of flat, so that hopefully some of the branches would start to grow out on their own and resemble a normal digitata, again.

It lies, in such a way, that the frag is lying almost flat against the rock with only a narrow crevice between it and the rock. Doing so, has apparently allowed them to "hide" and proliferate under the leading edge. Apparently, this is very attractive to the nudis. :blown:

None of the other digitata frags were attached in such a way that presented such an ideal location for them to set up "camp". This is why, I believe, that I haven't yet noticed them on my other digitatas. There just isn't as easy a place to hide, since the "branch" on the others is attached at a more perpendicular angle to the rock and not creating such an attractive hideout.

I have been pulling the occasional nudi from this digitata for a month or two, not really knowing what I'm dealing with. A few years ago, I found a much larger predatory nudi on some starpolyps and assumed that any hairy-looking nudi was probably not desireable.

So far, they've been attaking the same small area of this frag, so locating them hasn't been a problem. By the way, does dismembering them create assexual reproduction or do they die if they've been "scraped" to death? Anybody know?

Unfortunately, it seems that complete irradication may not be possible if you can't remove all your montis from your system, however, could the introduction of enough predators keep them in check enough for your corals to survive? I know this isn't ideal, but under the circumstances it is seeming like a better and better option.

I added my six-line wrasse from another tank last night. He is a real scavenger in the other tank and is always looking through every nook and cranny for something "alive" to munch on. Poor guy, he wiped out every bristleworm and copepod from that 42g Hex months ago but still continues his endless seek and destroy mission, hoping beyond hope that he somehow "missed" one. :uzi: I just hope that he notices the nudis instead of all the copepods and bristleworms in the much larger system. Somehow, I doubt it though, but I'm gonna try it anyhow. :(

So far, I've "read", that people have tried introducing the following potential "nudi predators" to their systems:
1. Yellow Cori Wrasse
2. Radiant Wrasse
3. Red/Blue leg hermits
4. Six-line Wrasse
5. ?

Did I miss any potential predators?

Also, does anyone know whether or not a yellow cori wrasse will co-exist with a six-line in a 150g?

Is anyone worried about introducing ICH with any additions of predators to their tank? I hope you aren't just dumping these fish into your tanks without qt'ing them for this dreaded beast, because IMO it just as much a pain for your fish as nudis are for montis. I enjoy my fish just as much as the corals. I don't want to lose either one. Unfortuantely, that may not be the case.

In addition, I decide to FW dip(15 sec as recommended in a previous article) the larger whirling monti last night, because I just couldn't seem to be able to remove or access them in all of its little crevices. This morning it was still a pale orange but showing significant slophing of mucous. Only time will tell if it'll pull through. Has anyone else tried this drastic measure? Any success?

Keep up the good fight-Mike

[atzak]

I have a sixline and a yellow coris in a 210 without problems, they were added at the same time

[speckled trout]

atzak,

Next question, do you have a nudi problem with the presence of both of those fish in your system?

[atzak]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1029626

[npirate]

I still battling these little F#$%^&'s.

They have Infested

- 1 Digi
- 3 Capricornis
- 1 Foliosa
- 2 Danae Orange / Purple

They started on my Large Green Capricornis, they didn't come in on that piece it was one of my first Monti's. Now they are on the Digi and my Orange Danae.

I tried:
- Siphoning w/ Baster
- Tweezers
- Tooth Brush
- Plastic scrub brush
- Fresh water RO dip (3 times)
- Lugol's Iodine Dip (2 times)
- 3 Yellow Coris Wrasse (2 died, third has no interest)
- Hosing them in sink (killed my 3 Caps and Purple Danae)
- Quick Cure

I hosed the corals off with cold water using a hose in my slop sink, this basically killed the corals. Within 3 days the other monti's which had showed no signs of them were infested.

Yesterday I took out the Digi and dabbed Quick Cure on it with a Q-tip. Have not returned but it is only a matter of time.

At this point I'm going to let them finish off the Orange Danae as it is encrusting a giant rock and really can't be removed. I'll going to take the Digi back to the LFS and see if they can quarantine it and cure it.

I've noticed that they do love the poorly light areas on the Monti's under the edges and in crevasse. I've also found them crawling over live rock going from one Monti to another.

Coincidentally this all started about 3 weeks after my six line wrasse died. I guess some wrasses have a taste from them but considering some of the places they hid under they corals I don't see how wrasses alone can control it.

Really would like to know if crushing them cause them to reproduce.

Final note, I have 2 digi's in a 30 gallon connected to the same system. So far no contamination.

[Randy1]

So I belive I have this on a green cap of mine. It looks like bleaching form the inner most center but are you saying if I look close its accually the nudi'S ??

[npirate]

Yeah you can see them. You should look in shady areas, they like to hide. You will most likey see the little legs, they almost look like extended polyps. hey will be right on edge of the dead spot where the is fleash for them to eat.

Good luck, if you have other Monti's I'd recommend you either remove the comtaminated one or the ones that are not comtaminated. They will eventually crawl over the rock to your other peices, it's as if they are following the scent to more food.

Nick

[SERVO]

any updates from those previously affected?

[Randy1]

I fragged and discarded almost the whole coral. The frags are doing well and growing almost doubled in size.

[speckled trout]

I don't have a nudi problem, anymore. I haven't seen one in a long, long time. My 6-line would love it if there where, though.

However, something else seems to be targeting my montis. I have sought information regarding this problem, several times, on this site. No one seems to be able to offer any advice, unfortunately.

Most of my digitatas and plating/whorling varieties have succumbed to something, but I can't seem to put my finger on it. They usually start slowly RTNing and eventually completely die.

All of my other corals continue to live and many, including, an acropora, continue to grow. I also have a pocillapora that seems happy go lucky, as well. Only the montis seem affected.

This has been going on for about 5 or 6 months without any problems for either the fish or any of the other corals. Strange.
:confused:

[melev]

What is your Magnesium level? For me, when it drops my Montipora fade or STN away. I now keep it at 1380 to 1400 at all times and all of the montis are doing great.

[speckled trout]

Wouldn't a low Mg level affect the pocilliporas and acros, as well?

I will check it, though.

Thanks-Mike

[npirate]

Mine disappeared after they killed about seven monti's One survived. I think they just ran out of food and were not able to sustain their growth. Once they were only on one Monti I could focus on blasting them off. They suck.

[melev]

Not for me. Montipora seem to be very attuned to magnesium levels, ime.

[speckled trout]

What is the preffered method to raise a low Mg level?

[NYreefKeeper]

i have tried most everything to kill these off myself, with no luck, radiant wrasse, yellow wrasse ect as well as most dips, even went a few months with no monti's and finally decided to re-stock my tank and poof out of no where got them again,

[stephj03]

If you can remove the corals temporarily you can superglue over the eggs and it will trap them. This is how I got rid of mine. I superglued any nooks and crannies in the underside of my caps and manually removed any on the top faces. whenever I saw eggs I put a drop of superglue gel over them and trapped them. After a month or so I didn't see anymore. Lost a few mini colonies, but save most of my nice stuff.

[NCNBilly]

I was able to successfully kill them off using a Poly-Ox dip every 3 days for a week or so. It browns out the coral, but they come back pretty quickly once the ba$tards are gone.

[slate55]

any updates? did the poly ox work as a perminant solution?


these guys just dont seem to go away..:( :( :(

[Los]

+1 on updates. I found one on a monti frag I picked up at MACNA. Fortunately it's in my quarantine tank, but I'd love to know how to treat it without tossing it.

[jeremystotts]

Im fighting those blasted thing also, got my numbers way down over the last 2 months but still popping up here and their, Melve did you ever find any more of the Tetra Oomed, Im interested, I found after a water change put the Monti in the 5g bucket and blast the heck out of it with a turkey baster work good at blowing the eggs off tooth brush also, I just crushed some of the common caps, to much work for a coral that will grow back in 6 months
also found in my experience that they seam to like the spongodes best.

[roiy]

I have tried taking the eggs with a tooth brush but :

1) the eggs are very hard to get off even with this method.
2) you can only scrub egg clusters you can see and get through and in this monty (cup) there are alot of places which the eggs can hide from.

I have thrown 2 big colonies of Montipora Capricornis and 2 colonies of montipora digitata over this nudies :uzi:

[Los]

I feel for you guys who have these in your display tank. I have three very small frags, the largest of which (after I trimmed it down) is about double the size of a quarter, and the other two could fit on a dime. These three tiny frags are in my QT and I STILL can't get rid of these little bastards. I've started looking at the frags under a strong magnifying glass and what looks to the naked eye to be little tiny dots turn out to be nudis. Unfortunately, the dips I've tried haven't been sufficiently effective and with my travel schedule, I can't stay on top of them. Every month or so I find a rice sized one and every week I see a half dozen very small nudis. You'd think in a small QT with such small frags this would be an easy battle. It's not.

I've tried (unsuccessfully):

1. trimming the frags, cutting away the outside bits and then crazy gluing them to a new frag plug. I thought this worked, but 3 weeks later I found a few more.
2. Dipping in Revive for 4 minutes. This does stun them which allows about 50% to be blown off, but it doesn't kill them. I put one of those blown off in a glass with fresh saltwater and it lived just fine.
3. Dipping in CoralRX for 10 minutes (4 treatments so far). This was recommended to me by the online vendor who sold me the infected frags at MACNA. CoralRX states that they "remove" rather than kill nudis. I'd say it's 50% effective, when you need 100%. Those that don't get blown off survive, as evidenced by putting one of the nudis in a glass and it continues to survive to this day. CoralRX at 10 minutes (as directed) was also very stressful to some LPS that were getting dipped at the same time, since they were in the QT.
4. Forget trying to do something with high salinity or making quick salinity changes. These buggers are TOUGH. I had several of them in a measuring cup with saltwater sitting on a table before I left for 17 days on a business trip. When I came back, a bit more than a third of the water had evaporated and the salinity was around 50 ppt. One nudi was fine the other was floating. I then dumped in fresh RODI to bring it down to 34 ppt and two days later they were both fine. I don't know about hypo-salinity.
5. I haven't fully tested how long it takes for them to starve, but 17 days without any montis to much on wasn't a problem for them.

These nudis are much tougher than any fish or coral.

Unless you use biological solutions, such as with certain wrasses, I don't know of a way to get rid of these guys. The problem with biological solutions is that you don't know for sure that you've eliminated them and it would be irresponsible to trade any frags with anyone.

Incidentally, I've got to say that I'm a bit disappointed in the vendor. I sent him emails right after MACNA and warned him that he was selling frags with monti eating nudis and his answer was that he didn't think he had any, but he'd dip his corals in CoralRX just to be sure. As I've seen in my own testing, that isn't nearly sufficiently effective to ensure that he isn't spreading them to other customers, who continue to this day buying corals from him and, presumably, then having to go through this hell themselves. I sympathize for the vendor, who would have much more trouble eliminating these from his stock than I'm having, and to stop selling would cost him a ton of money, but at the same time I would be furious if I bought some corals from him and had my tank infected even after he had been warned.

The big lesson for me is to always quarantine. Had I not quarantined, I'd be blissfully ignorant as these F*@#$ers were spreading in my display.

[marioensf]

I'm navigating in the same boat, just discovered them but it's weird, it's happening overnight !! I have not introduced any new corals in a long time and there's an outbreak !!
I have some providone frag dip and wonder if this will help a little.

[ONEWAY]

The yellow wrasse worked for me. But what i did to set them back and kill the eggs, was I bioled water and used a syringe to slowly hit these things. Best to shut the pumps off not to dilute the hot water to fast. I knocked these guys out in less than a month.

[Los]

A yellow Coris Wrasse?

[ganjero]

any updates?

[marioensf]

any updates?


Hola Luis !!

I lost most of the colonies but the frags that remain show no sign of the little bastards. I dipped an Idaho Grape in lugols but after browning out it just gave up and died about a week ago.
I have to re-think the route on my tank; adding a coris wrasse as a solution might not be wise choice since I have a six line and don't want them to battle each other to death.
The digitatas you gave me were so badly infested they did not survive and most of the caps were also beyond salvation. some small green cap frags are doing OK.
I want to say the infestation is over but won't know until I see the remaining monti frags thriving again.

Happy Holidays Luis !! and everyone on RC

[TheMcs]

I do almost nightly flashlight checks, and noticed these on my purple haze for the first time last night. I haven't added anything in months. Only coincidence was the death earlier this week of my longtime fathead/sunburst anthias. Makes me wonder if he was keeping them in check. I only saw about 8 on the purple haze, then 1 other on an orange cap. The haze is about 12" across totally encrusted on an ~80lb piece of LR. Will have to try in-tank methods.

[mayjong]

has anyone tried "flatworm exit"?
i hear that it works on zoa nudis..
just a thought

[franklypre]

Yes repeatedly, no effect on eggs, not much on adults, I fragged all my montis up and moved them to the frag tank, now just curious how long to wait.

[roiy]

Yes repeatedly, no effect on eggs, not much on adults, I fragged all my montis up and moved them to the frag tank, now just curious how long to wait.

a few month minimum

[alanmorehead]

Yes repeatedly, no effect on eggs, not much on adults, I fragged all my montis up and moved them to the frag tank, now just curious how long to wait.

I waited 6-8 months before adding any montis to my tank. I would recommend doing the same
I also added a six-line wrasse to my display and frag tanks.

[xtremereefer]

Oh man I guess I'll bump this up because it looks like I picked these pest up from a local reefer. I might just not add any montis for a LONG time. Man this kind of stuff makes me want to break the tank down after almost 2 years! Maybe its time to give up AGAIN. I'll try the fish thing 1st, but from my past experience the only thing that work was Tetra Omed dipping in a separate bucket. I was able to overcome these in my old 150, but it was hard work. At this phase of my tank my montis have out grown a lot of coral and are way to big to be removed for dipping. Lets not forget all the encrusting montis all over my rock work....SIGH!

[Glove]

These things suk!
I went through an infestation a few years ago. I tried dips, fish, toothbrush, fragging..all for not.
They are really tough to get rid of.
I watched 5 very large cap colonies get infested from adding one frag.
QT EVERYTHING!
...ended up pulling every monty from the system and put em in the trash.
Left the tank without montis for over a year and that seemed to work.
flash forward...
I just picked up a couple frags from a shop here in Indiana and sure enough, get em home, inspect through the bags and see monti nudibranch infested frags-adults w/ eggs.
I also purchased a mushroom rock from a different display and it had them too.
I have these all in QT right now.
Doubt I will get rid of the pests but Im going to try a toothbrush and lots of time.
I was sooo close to just putting the shroom rock into the display...

*I would also like to know if breaking them causes them to spread/multiply/reproduce.

[duastina]

I'm dealing with as well, I found one on the back of my monti I pulled out and diped in coral dip RX, even after 10 min in the dip I had to pry the bugger off with a tweezer, does anyone have any pictures of eggs, I didn't see any but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I also bought a melanarus wrasse for good measure.

[marioensf]

You have to look closely for the eggs, they look like tiny grains of rice, hard to spot.

[duastina]

I'll take it out again and look, apparently the super glue gel i used thankfully did not make it too hard to get back out lol! Though I suppose if the wrasse is going to eat the buggers I should glue it back?

[marioensf]

Don't assume the wrasse will deal with the pest, scrub the underside of the coral, my son got a toy microscope thingy and we used it to look at the montis on the TV screen and that's how we found hundreds of eggs so I decided to pull them out of the tank.

[xtremereefer]

Just curious, had anyone here just let the monti eatting nudies just eat all there montis? I was just thinking of letting nature take its course and just using the dead montis to mount new acro frags.

[marioensf]

Well no and yes; I did not let them eat all of the montis, took the caps out and saved the skeletons, let them dry then I used them to mount some corals

[Antdizzle]

any updates ? got them in my display tank somehow aftre battling them in my frag tank some how theyre back in there also

[maroun.c]

I have to re-think the route on my tank; adding a coris wrasse as a solution might not be wise choice since I have a six line and don't want them to battle each other to death.

Got a sixline and a yellow coris wrass in my 150 gand so far no fighting. Even have another sixline and coris in my 20 G frag tank and so far no fighting. I had the yellows first and then introduced the sixline.

[marioensf]

Added a Coris Wrasse with caution, little bigger than the Six Line Wrasse, so far so good, no fighting. The Six Line is still a bit of a bully in the tank.
Montis are looking good now that I introduced some back.
The ups and downs of the hobby.

[Tony B (UK)]

Any one tried Interceptor (Milbemycin Oxime), i'd be interested to see what effect this has (if any) on these nudis?

[Siddique]

I've begun my battle with these buggers today. I got the adults off with lugol's dip but there are still hundreds of eggs on my montipoa confusa. The super glue idea sounds plausible.
Also, has anyone else tried the boiling water being squirted on the eggs?
I believe that they do multiply similar to starfish whereas if you cut them each piece would form a new nasty:hmm5:

[mswt5]

Just discovered these guys munching away at one of my montis.
Tropic Marin Pro Coral Cure sure does something to them. As soon as I added the stuff to the container I was holding the Monti in, the little buggers were on the run. Was able to blow them off with a turkey baster after that.
I put the monti in a quarantine tank....well see how it turns out

[roiy]

Just discovered these guys munching away at one of my montis.
Tropic Marin Pro Coral Cure sure does something to them. As soon as I added the stuff to the container I was holding the Monti in, the little buggers were on the run. Was able to blow them off with a turkey baster after that.
I put the monti in a quarantine tank....well see how it turns out

lots of deeps will do the work with the adults, none will do the work on the eggs :uzi:

[hk855]

A potassium permangenate dip is supposed to kill both the adults and eggs. I have been trying to tweaser them off for about a month and they just hop from one coral to another so I have KMnO4 on its way from ebay. Ill update in a few weeks and hopefully they will be gone, have been lucky and haven't lost one yet.

[yardboy]

How did the KMnO4 dip work, and what concentration/dip time did you use it at?

[RR37]

Im really happy I stopped to take a look at this thread. I pulled one out no knowing what it was. After reading through I checked my montis again and found three more. All on a recent purchase. Im hoping they have not spread out to other pieces.

[chercm]

does fairy wrasse eat this ?

[roiy]

does fairy wrasse eat this ?

Might eat the adults, eggs will remain until hatched and the cycle goes on and on ...

[emerald crab]

What is their life cycle egg to adult ?

[apt220]

Anyone have luck with the Coris wrasse?

[glennr1978]

Anyone have luck with the Coris wrasse?

Absolutely. I had monti eating nudis destroying a few corals in my old tank. I tried dipping, manual removal, and a 6-line. All slowed them down a little but none took them out completely.

Enter the yellow coris wrasse.... After all esle basically failed I decided to pick up another wrasse. Luckily, the one my LFS had in stock was a yellow coris. I took it home, put it in my tank, and within a few days all visible signs of monti eating nudis was gone!

I've been through a few different tanks since then, but still kept frags of some of the corals that once had monti eating nudis. I've also kept a yellow coris ever since and have NEVER seen a trace of the little bastages. The yellow coris may not be the prettiest, but they sure are beneficial.

[Chiefmcfuz]

Melanarus and yellow coris wrasses have worked for me.

[reefer1979]

If the piece can be pulled out of the tank, i rinse free all adults in a bucket and superglue all of the dead areas, especially the undersides or crevices where eggs can be attached.
after watching for several weeks you can stomp em out in most cases.

[apt220]

Sweet thanks for the info.

[shelby_cos]

ive got them too:mad2:
its amazing how quikly they reproduce. I keep siphoning them out because I dont want to remove the coral because its encrusting to the rock now.

I did some siphoning of the little killers and noticed that they can be as tiny as a poppy seed, so small you would never see them on the coral until they get big and by the time they are big enough to see, they have already laid eggs. Its a never ending nightmare.:furious:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=3158&pictureid=27660

[apt220]

I got rid of my Acropora/monti eating nudibranchs since my post. I'm not sure how, but I added a sixline and manually hunted for them at night for about a week. I also added more hermit crabs since my last post. Im not sure what did it but probably a combination of all the above. I haven't seen a nudibranch for two weeks and my corals don't have any bitemarks.

[Subie]

A potassium permangenate dip is supposed to kill both the adults and eggs. I have been trying to tweaser them off for about a month and they just hop from one coral to another so I have KMnO4 on its way from ebay. Ill update in a few weeks and hopefully they will be gone, have been lucky and haven't lost one yet.

We just discovered we have these little buggers :(

What is the potassium permanganate concentration that you used and was it effective?

Between the melanurus, yellow coris, and radiant wrasse, which is more effective? Has anyone ever tried the scarlet pin stripe wrasse?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

[Chiefmcfuz]

My Melanarus and Yellow Coris went to town on them. They both do a great job.