Coral & Anemone fragging - techniques

[Anthony Calfo]

As per the name of the thread... lets chat about improving coral propagation efforts.

A brief aside first: the hobby of reef keeping has progressed, fast indeed, in large part due to fragmentation and sharing of propagated divisions. But we must be vigilently mindful that this will not carry our hobby into the future wholly nor save it from restrictive legislation if/when imposed on the collection of wild corals. There can be no doubt of this. The demand for corals overwhelmingly dwarfs the number of frags created and the ability of present and likely future operations from satisfying even a small overseas market, let alone the American market with frags only.

The key to the hobby becoming self-sustaining seems to be the collection and rearing of planulae. Asexual at first perhaps, and later (hopefully) the harvest of sexual acts of reproduction. We are talking events that produce thousands or tens of thousands of corals... far faster than the very best "fragging" operations. And do know that to stimulate such acts of planulation... you will have to have broodstock that is allowed to mature to a sexually mature critical mass. That means no fragging of the colony perhaps for some years until it grows large enough!

Thats said... we are not there yet, and the delightfully simple act of coral fragmentation supports many of us, raises awareness and increases the participation of more and more conscientious reef keepers.

Lets step out of the shadows of dreadfully archaic techniques like breaking off a "stick" of a frag and then gluing it upright like a planted tree. Just awful! :p Read below for why.

No... we NEED to always ponder and improve techniques for more and more efficient techniques and the effieicent use of precious resources (energy, water... your money ;))

[Anthony Calfo]

BREAKING STICKS

Heehee... the most common endeavers of coral fragmentation to date have largely been with digitate stony corals like Acropora and Montipora digitata... finger Porites, etc.

And to date, the most common way of fixing these frags to a substrate as been to glue, epoxy, insert (into a hole) or otherwise position the finger of a frag in an UPRIGHT position like a planted tree.

Yet do consider how unnatural this is. Can you imagine how many frags created on the reef by various water, weather/storm or animal damage... actually sink and settle - voila! - in a planted an upright position? Ahhh... not many, if any :D

More importantly, as it pertains to optimizing fragmentation techniques... the vertical orientation of a frag severely handicaps the potential for growth that accumulates total mass overall.

You have heard perhaps of other means for optimizing growth for mass? See my article index for links to an older Reefkeeping.com article on suspension growth of corals... there are some threads here on RC too from over one year ago on the same subject. You can grow more mass faster by suspending a coral on string since the colony will get more water flow all ways around and more light (refracted off sand and aquarium walls/substrates to the underside of the coral). But indeed... few folks will have the space or the desire to string corals.

So addressing the typical keeping of frags on substrates, let's look at an example:

Imagine a 2"/5cm single branch frag of Acropora.

"Planted" in an upright and vertical position, the axial tip of the branch continues to get the best light and water flow and grows the fastest.

But do you know what's better than a nice little fast growing axial corallite? Several of them: Lay the frag down horizontally.

Laying down horizontally... that 2" frag now has tens of secondary corallites now exposed to better water flow and light (especially) for being out from under the "shadow" of the vertical orientation. On this horizontal branch you will get at least several new branches that will each grow at the same or better pace than the single axial branch of a vertically fixed branch.

But do you know what's better than several new branches growing from a horizontal 2" frag? Two times the number of branches! And we get this by simply splitting the branch in half bilaterally (like a bananna split). Thus... we get 4-6 new branches off of both pieces laying down horizontally with their cut sides face down... instead of just several from the whole uncut branch laying down horizontally.

But do you know what's better than 4-6 new branches off of a bilaterally split coral frag? 20+ branches! And we get this by instead sawing the 2"/5 cm frag into say five 10mm disks/wafers! (done with a thin wet tile saw blade or lapidary saw blade as some of you have seen Eric Borneman or myself do in frag workshops... see 2005 IMAC and/or MACNA DVDs).

Each wafer of stony coral can be placed on a new hard substrate with a dab of glue and the topside cut edge will be stimulated to cover with new tissue and form at least several (if not more) branches in the process.

So comparing the growth on the same 2"/5cm Acropora frag in a single month between:

-vertical frag with single axial tip
-horizontal frag with several new branches
-split horizontal frag with 2X several branches
-4-5 10mm wafer cuts of the frag which each produce several+ branches

... the productivity is remarkable.

What great differences in the total amount of mass (and ultimately salable/tradable) corals produced!

This is the sort of mindful examination of our techniques we must continue to do as we collectively advance the hobby :)

Let's use this thread as one small place to add ideas and discussion about improving coral propagation techniques.

With kind regards, Anthony

[Anthony Calfo]

Would anyone care to share their pics/techniques for sawing Fungiids like Cycloseris across the septa! Or maybe chopping blastomussa or Acanthastrea polyps in half with poultry shears? :D

Please? :)

[NicoleC]

Here's a reference chart on fragging softies and LPS I did for a recent workshop. I can't imagine from what book I lifted a lot of the details. :smokin:

[TippyToeX]

Fragging Blastomussa

Just my take, I know others have different experances but this is what has worked for me best.

Merleti:

Is the one balsto I am comfortable with doing a hack job on in an "unconventional" manner. Meaning using bone shears and darn near breaking heads in two. They have such easy skeleton structure to work with. You just slide the shears in between each head and snip the pop right off.

http://whelk.aims.gov.au/coralsearch/images/101-200/Large/107bw-01.jpg

If the sheers don’t do the trick or are too awkward there are the little dental saws! They are so perfect for these guys and I like it more then the sheers. It takes longer but you can get even cuts with it. It looks like a little miniature hacksaw. Diamond coated and cuts through the skeleton like butter. It’s just important to try to not cause any tissue damage. They are not as delicate IMHO as Blastomussa wellsi when it comes to tissue damage but still better safe then sorry.

Even though I am sure you can take blunt eyebrow tevezers and snap them off like a twig if you wanted to.:D

Mounting them is not too difficult. Epoxy them to the rock work or rubble, super glue will work if it’s small enough. Moderate water flow and light.

Wellsi:

It has been my experience and what I have read and heard from friends that these can be very fussy when it comes to a messy fragging. Tissue damage on a wellsi can turn into a secondary infection (brown jelly) disaster. I’ve heard and have seen a head of wellsi nicked or cut in two and in a matter of 5-10 hours turn into a slimy ball of goo.

They can share connective tissue often times and can even overlap.

http://whelk.aims.gov.au/coralsearch/images/101-200/Large/108-02M.jpg

http://whelk.aims.gov.au/coralsearch/images/101-200/Large/108BW-01.jpg

I think the cleaner the cut you can make on these guys the better! I’ve taken a scalpel and run it in between the corallites to make sure any tissues are nicely separated. Then I take this magical attachment to my dremel (diamond wheel)

http://images.snapfish.com/3454%3B69523232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E6%3B8%3E%3A72%3EWSNRCG%3D3233327949435nu0mrj

And slowly (with eye protection on and gloves) cut along where I ran the scalpel. Only going so far. If there is rock underneath it’s not the much of a problem. Once a good deep cut is made I’ll take a hammer and chisel and snap the frag away from the mother.

Once good tip for attaching a wellsi frag would be to get a somewhat flat piece of live rock. Take your dremel and work out a hole in the center of the rock, just so the new frag can rest in it. Not resting so deep that the cut edges are masked, but so the skeleton rests in it. You can glue of epoxy it down after that point. Doing this will allow it to encrust over the rock evenly, not make that gold ball frag of blasto many people get and have a hard time mounting.

Pics taken from: Here (http://whelk.aims.gov.au/coralsearch/coralsearch.php)
(excpet the dremel attachment)

[CodeToad]

Very helpful post Anthony, thank you!

I haven’t been fortunate enough to see you're acro fragging techniques in person or on video. When you are referring to splitting a branch bilaterally, what type of tool would you recommend for a cut of this nature (wet-tile saw as mentioned for the wafer cuts?), and how much does the physical ‘branch’ thickness of the acro species itself play into the feasibility of a bilateral cut?

[TippyToeX]

Acanthastrea lordhowensis

My abslout favorite method of fragging these are just as Anthony suggested, bone shears! Nice even cuts, the skeleton and turn into rubble or snap evenly it really doesn’t matter. The more you do it the better your cuts become. It’s simple because you have nice control over each division and can frag off individual polyps with no problem this way. You can do the delicate work of cutting a polyp. Anthony had a great demo in this article: Good Lordhowensis (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/ebac/index.php)
Along with the shears, a razor and dremel is shown.


You can make a bloody mess of this coral and I tell you it will bounce back in a matter of days (water quality allowing). The first time I ever used a dremel with a diamond wheel attachment was on this coral. To say I underestimated the power of this little tool is a laugh. I pretty much buzz sawed the whole mother colony into something out of a horror movie. I ended up with a frag that looked like this:

http://images.snapfish.com/3454%3B69523232%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3B%3D7%3A9%3D%3B63%3DXROQDF%3E2324236%3A5%3C34%3Bot1lsi

Four days later (no joke!)

http://images.snapfish.com/3454%3B69523232%7Ffp63%3Dot%3E232%3B%3D7%3A9%3D%3B63%3DXROQDF%3E2324236%3A5%3C358ot1lsi

One month later

http://images.snapfish.com/3454%3B69523232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E6%3B8%3E%3A72%3EWSNRCG%3D323332796%3B43%3Anu0mrj

Also I say it with all sincerity; you could take this coral out of the tank and toss it on the floor. Step on it with a pair of cleated shoes and sweep up the bits. Toss them about the bottom of the tank and in a few days you will have tons of little polyps all over. :D

You don’t have to attach them to a thing either. Just let them tumble about on the sand bed. Or if you run bare bottom they would be too sweet to allow to encrust along the bottom. You can also do the trick I mentioned above and dremel out a dip on a flat piece of rock. Rest them in that little hole so they can encrust evenly.

Just for reference:

http://whelk.aims.gov.au/coralsearch/images/001-100/Large/4bw-01.jpg
Pics above taken from: Here (http://whelk.aims.gov.au/coralsearch/coralsearch.php)

[Anthony Calfo]

you guys are good :D Super thanks already to Nicole and Amy!

Matt... yes, a portable wet-saw for ceraminc tile is a decent choice. They are cheap (around $50 at Home Depot/Lowes, etc) and rather effective. A lapidary saw (used for cutting gems/stones) is far more precise... and far more expensive (unit and blades).

So... if you own an Aqua C or ASM/Euro-Reef style skimmer... then you buy the wet-saw for ceramic tile. Or... if you felt the need to buy a Deltec or Bubble-King skimmer... then you may be inspired to buy the lapidary saw. :D All of the aforementioned instruments are very fine and effective in their respective categories equally so (generally speaking) and well enough for me. Knock yourself out. ;)

[ALTI]

Very good thread Anthony. And i thought i was the only one cutting acro's into cookies :).

[mc-cro]

couldnt you use a dremel with a cutting disk to make the acro wafers?

[Anthony Calfo]

you could indeed... but its awkward for all but the thinnest branches. The cutting wheel of a Dremmel is just too shallow for many stony coral propagation techniques, hence the popularity of a wet tile saw, side-cutting bits, band saw, etc.

[Frankysreef]

Minimum size question... I seem to have trouble keeping 1/4 inch frags alive... What is the minimum size that you would cut that would allow the animal to get enough food to sustain itself..

I am not cutting 1/4 inch, it is the act of sticking my hand in the tank that creates the 1/4 inch frag ( but I try to keep em alive anyway ).

I have had pocillopora reproduce in my tank via planulae.

How big does a acropora need to be to reproduce in this manner? I have some acro's that are over 1 foot across. I havent seen any planulae from these yet.

One more question about filter socks... I use them to keep water flowing over my mesh bags of coral, but am sad when I see all the animals trapped in them. Good or bad?

thanks

Great book.. still reading it over and over again...

Frank

[stellablu]

Does anyone have a good website to exhibit propagation of favia/favites?

Here is what I'm working with, it's a half grapefruit sized piece.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/twostellablu/Reef%20tank/DSCN0837copy.jpg

Thanks!

[NicoleC]

Here's a few slides I did for that same presentation, mostly featuring natural fragmentation.

A leather dropping a baby:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242Lobo.jpg

A mushroom "walking" and leaving babies behind:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242Mushroom.jpg

A frogspawn head splitting:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242Euphyllia.jpg

A ricordia dividing itself:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242Ricordia.jpg

A yellow Tonga leather healing from fragging:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242Sarcophytum.jpg

The "toothpick" mounting method, where rubberbands hold down the ends of the toothpick:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242Toothpick.jpg
(Photo courtesy of RC member "sharkdude")

[t0mmy108]

Can you show me a picture of the "wafer" method for sps? How thick should the wafers be?

[emora]

Hi Anthony.
I just bought my tile saw on monday. So far I have only put it to work once: to save a Montipora digitata with STN. It produces perfect, clean cuts. :D

However, I did notice that tissue closest to the cut has taken longer to recover.

While cutting I noticed a considerable build-up of slurry (mixed water and powdered rock/skeleton) on the tissue nearest the cut. This is precisely the area that has not recovered well.

What can I do to reduce the trauma?

I'm currenty using a 2.2mm thick diamond tile blade. Is this too thick? It just seems to produce a great deal of waste.

[Anthony Calfo]

The blade is probably fine enough, though fans of the lapidary saw would say this is the reason for the extra expense/benefit for such jem cutting saws.

I still am quite happy with my tile-cutting saws. You could rig up a streaming drip (like a kalk drip or IV bag with water regulated by a thumb or needle valve) to add cooling water to the blade.

You may have noticed that wet scroll saws cool their blades this way with pumped water from small (1/4") adjustable jet nozzles.

[Leishman]

Fragging the Efflo w/Dremmel and diamond blade:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2305.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2306.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2308.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2309.jpg

http://http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2310.jpg

[Leishman]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2311.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2312.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2313.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a16/p96531/DSCN2318.jpg

[causeofhim]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo

Each wafer of stony coral can be placed on a new hard substrate with a dab of glue and the topside cut edge will be stimulated to cover with new tissue and form at least several (if not more) branches in the process.

So comparing the growth on the same 2"/5cm Acropora frag in a single month between:

-vertical frag with single axial tip
-horizontal frag with several new branches
-split horizontal frag with 2X several branches
-4-5 10mm wafer cuts of the frag which each produce several+ branches

...

Does anyone have pics of this?

[delta]

After seeing your presentation last sunday At UMass boston I could not wait to slice my Rbta but that is going to take some time to get out of my display tank. Any way I did have a Condy in my fuge that came in with my LR, well you know the resthttp://moosensquirrel.com/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/images/smiles/icon_axe.gif A trip to the stores and i was ready. I missed the before shot my gloves were a little slimy after fishing it out here are some pics

http://moosensquirrel.com/v-web/gallery/albums/Reef/SLICEDnDICED.jpg
4hrs
http://moosensquirrel.com/v-web/gallery/albums/Reef/4hrs.jpg
7hrs and on the move
http://moosensquirrel.com/v-web/gallery/albums/Reef/7hrs_lights_on_moving.jpg

[Kreeger1]

Do tell about the speech
Erik

[TippyToeX]

That's awesome! :thumbsup:

[Anthony Calfo]

oustanding... please do continue to share pics and progress in time!

Do be careful too with the keeping of these/any motile cnidarians with any sessile ones (corals). Can be tricky and is usually unnatural. Best bet is to keep them separated (refugium, stand alone tank, etc).

And thank you for your kind words... I had a wonderful time at BRS :)

Anthony

[Skatereef]

Tell us how you did it.Also tell us what tools you used

[delta]

well Anthony could probably explain it better but it is pretty simple

tools- Exacto knife (scalpels shaped)boiled to sterilize
Gloves
Goggles (you never know)
Gladware disposable container


It was not attached so it was easy to remove from my fuge.
Then I placed it on a clean piece of acrylic.
Now for the fun :D I took the exacto knife stabbed it directly into the middle of the mouth of the anemone then cut towards the outer edge.

Next I rotated the specimen 180 degrees and started from the same point of the mouth to the opposite outer edge to finish.

The two halves then took a bath in the gladware container while took a photo then I rinse them a bit and returned them to the Fuge.

It only took about five minutes once I had all tools and things ready.

[Anthony Calfo]

Delta... your use of pics, topically timely thread and the good direction this can go with updates led me to add it to the "fragging" technique sticky that I'm presently keeping atop my forum for this subject. It has been merged :)

Another chap from Boston e-mailed me saying he was inspired after our BRS meeting to cut his Carpet anemone in half. Reporting that both halves are doing fine :D I've requested photos of course.

Indeed... the successful bilateral cutting of such cnidarians is no more mysterious than the same with corallamorpharians, etc. It's just less common with anemones to date.

I'm hopnig we can change that :D And I'm doing my part through the years/lectures, etc to do so too ;)

[Kreeger1]

I'd love to hear the speech, whats the chances in you making it to a c-sea club meeting this year? Our calendar seems to be pretty open lately.
Erik

[Anthony Calfo]

I'm presently scheduled into 2007, my friend.

I think its because I'm free and easy :p

2006 is too heavy at present for me to say if we can fit anything in yet. But C-Sea is a fab club. I'd really enjoy a return visit.

Yet I do need to make time for family and paying work :)

http://www.readingtrees.com/meet_the_authors.htm

[Kreeger1]

I hear ya there!!!
I saw you over the summer with Kelly, and Steven Pro in Michigan. you got cut short due to time but it was informative and entertaining.
See ya then,
Erik

[causeofhim]

I suppose i would need to get my RBTA off of its rock to do this?

[Anthony Calfo]

nope... you can cut the anemone with a sharp single-edged blade while on the rock... then simply use a sharp woodworkers chisel to skin one half of the anemone off the rock without touching tissue by taking a fraction of an inch of rock with it by sliding underneath.

It's important to separate the halves, of course, because of the need for water flow, better light, etc to improve healing and recovery on the cut sides.

[ALTI]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone,

ive been wanting to do that with my carpet for a long time but i have not built up the nerve to do it. this guys is about 16 inches across and its scary enough just handling it. it seems more like id need butchering tools than fragging tools. i do have a couple of small green BTA's i wouldnt mind practicing on, but they are really small (2"). Does the size matter at all? can the anemone be too big or too small?

rob

[Anthony Calfo]

no worries on the size of the anemone so much... one of the first/biggest conditions to heed instead is that the anemone (coral, etc) ideally should have been held captive and fed well, conditioned for at least 4 months prior. In a phrase: don't frag stressed, new anemones/corals (unless its damage control and you are trying to salvage an otherwise doomed specimen - thus excising the dying or infected tissue).

The chap I chatted with in Boston last weekend that was going to cut his carpet started a thread here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=714875&highlight=calfo

will look forward to seeing pics of their success :)

[ALTI]

Thanks Anthony,
Ive had this anemone for almost a year now, so i think its ready. The mouth seems somewhat elliptical. Does it make any difference cutting it perpendicular or parallel across the mouth?

The NJRC meeting is at my place in January. Maybe i can muster up the courage to do a demonstration. Reminds me of when i fragged my first mushroom. I was so nervous :) .

[Anthony Calfo]

any bilateral split through the mouth is likely fine... but do hedge your bets by minimizing "damage." In this case... I'd make the cut across the shortest distance of mouth (as opposed to between the long sides of the elipse). Thus... when the anemone pinches closed, it can heal a fully formed mouth faster.

A matter of good habit/technique more than necessarily improving rates of success much.

[maxvan1]

Leishman, how is the Efflo comming?

[GTR]

Anthony...
In your book you talk about making frag mounting plugs with portland cement and aragonite. Any coral health reason that normal mortar mix can't be used? We have a product at our HD called Spec Mix which uses portland cement and common builders sand. It's different than common mortar mixes since it uses portland and not plastic cement.
I know many will say that the common silica based sand with lead to algae issues but I've read some of your posts saying it would be OK for a DSB if you did'nt want/need the additional buffering.

Also... how long do they need to be cured? The system is 350g + and I might use 20-30 1.5" OD x 3/4" thick plugs per week. My thinking is they won't need but a couple days in a bucket of SW changed daily?

Thanks
SteveU

[Anthony Calfo]

we are both speaking in generalities here: "mortar" and even "portland" cement

You will find that different brands if not batches have different cure times.

And you are mistaken my friend about the cure time for many... it is weeks if not months (hence the prefences of some folks for very specific types of cement)

Case in point... have you even noticed how a new cement block under water by a dock or pier takes maaaaaaany months before anything will grow on it? Heehee... there a reason for that ;)

And you will also see that some mfgs recommend leaving unused plugs in water indefinitely before being used (changing water periodically).

I stopped making my own plugs a long time ago. Several mfgs have developed fab recipes for very lightweight fast cure products.

My current fav is Boston Aqua Farms discs and posts. They have been staggeringly generous too to hobby clubs doing workshops. Really... donations exceeding any reasonable amount really needed for simple PR purposes. FWIW... I do like them very much and find them to be quite deserving of our support (by hobyist for hobbyist sort of thing). Check them out. You may find that your time is better spent not making plugs like me ;)

[GTR]

Thanks Anthony. I'll order a few of their plugs for acropora since they are small and have the "stem" to keep them in place. I'm currently using minature plastic champagne glasses for molds with a plastic drywall fastener imbedded in the bottom.
I've also used 7/8" ceramic tile for acropora gluing a minimum of four small frags horizontal. These tiles come in sheets 12 x 12 tiles held together with a flexible adhesive. I use them in 1 x 3 tile strips. I've found they work well and encrusting times are good. Development of a marketable colony is slow due to the horizontal mount but given time they seem to command a higher retail price since they are larger colonies. Also with the tiles there will be no doubt they are in fact AC corals. :)

Thanks again...
SteveU

[Anthony Calfo]

yes... agreed my friend. Ceramic tiles and marble are generally very good too. Much better in fact (coral settlement/no curing) than poorly made cement plugs... but indeed, a lot more expensive too. Heehee... I'll preach to folks to use marble, but I use the cement plugs myself moreoften at present :D Just more affordable, lighter weight and easier/accessible.

[puter]

Hi Anthony -

Figured I'd better practice a bit before propagating the Aiptasia.;)

http://home.rochester.rr.com/retrieve/reef/bta_one.jpghttp://home.rochester.rr.com/retrieve/reef/bta_two.jpg

[Anthony Calfo]

heehee... always outstanding to see :D

Some folks/friends have heard me say this before... but anemones are some of the only trade species I'd like to see (voluntarily) limited in wild collections. Their shipping rates are dismal... and their sustainability/recovery in the wild is sobering. Just sobering (extremely slow).

Far and away... this group of animals needs to have priority IMO for fragging and other propagation efforts if we (the hobby) wants to continue to keep these animals in aquaria.

It's this/that sort of self-policing that will allow us to continue to use sustainable wild species as well.

Responsible reef-keeping :)

[puter]

Agreed completely. And for the record, this particular E. Quad speciman is one of 10+ clones of one I have had a long time, and has been in captivity more than five years. I don't want to leave the impression with any, by my tone, that this was done without the conditioning you mention above, when actually it was more.

[NicoleC]

Is your anemone really that purple, or is that the photo? It looks gorgeous. Mine is a very intense bright rose, and I've seen bright orange, but I haven't seen one that has a burgundy shade to it before.

[puter]

No, that's an artifact of the incandescent light it was under or the ineptitude of the photographer. Mine's the bright orange with emerald green variety. Here's a better representation:

http://home.rochester.rr.com/retrieve/reef/bta_color.jpg

[NicoleC]

Ah well, too bad. I was hoping there was an unusual color morph -- and all the more reason to propagate!

The green/orange is interesting as well. Yours seems to have a very clear difference in colors; some get a little muddy where the colors mix.

[Anthony Calfo]

sigh... I don't think I can stay awake long enough to see Nicole's post count break 6K :p

Kudos to you again Nicole for your contributions here at RC and beyond for the hobby.

Kindly,

Ant-

[Anthony Calfo]

and may I add:

"The suspense is terrible... I hope it will last."

Oscar Wilde

Ha! So close....

[NicoleC]

LOL! You know, I didn't even notice the 6k post count until you mentioned it. Do I get a prize? ;)

Logging off for the night, so it'll be stuck at 5999 for today :) Come back tomorrow.

[captbunzo]

Awwww!!! And I was so hoping I would come back and see that you've broken the barrier... :)

Til tomorrow!!!

[Snakebyt]

great thread.. I have been wanting to try some fragging, but just not known how to go about it, this thread has defenatly helped.
thanks all

[Anthony Calfo]

Ahem... so, Nicole: Have you ever fragged the Fungiid Cycloseris? :D Any pics? :p

(translation to all: shameless post bait and building content at the same time here :D)

[NicoleC]

Ha ha. Why yes, I have, how DID you know?

Here's the fragging, with a Dremel and steel cutoff wheel. If you like the smells of rotting fish and a cavity being drilled, this will be heaven for you.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242RAP2004a.jpg

Closeup of someone doing the other half. Not my hairy knuckles.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242RAP2004b.jpg

The day after fragging:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242fungia1day.jpg

One month:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242fungia1month.jpg

Two months:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242fungia2month.jpg

Four months:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/43242fungia.JPG

I sold it a few months ago. When I removed it and examined it, the skeleton still clearly showed a pie shaped scar, but had grown circle starting from the middle. The coral was not all the way round yet, but was moving in that direction, and had a copious amount of flesh. Also, it had just grown a second mouth and appeared to be splitting or budding.

Overall, it recovered easily and well.

[causeofhim]

Has anyone fragged a tounge or slipper coral? Do I just cut it into pieces?

[Anthony Calfo]

Wow... thanks Nicole. I sure lucked out with that guess/request :D

BTW - you got me salivating at your illuminating description of the smell of the fragging event. I'm thinking a pinot noir would balance the aroma of putrification? Ooh... and I'll have the espresso with sambuca chaser to round it out :p

causeof him... you will frag slipper, tnongue and ALL Fungiids (with the exception of Heliofungia) in the manner Nicole, Amy, et al. have described or the like: stainless steel cut-off wheel on a dremmel or a wet tile saw work very well.

Condition the animal months in advance with good feeding... then make a fast cut with a sharp blade and return the pieces to stong water flow and resume good feeding/husbandry.

Fragmentation is a common natural reproductive strategy for Fungiids in the wild (translation: as free-lving corals... storms and wave action regularly smash them against rocks).

[Leishman]

maxvan1:

The efflo is fine, all frags have been traded/sold (all mounted on Boston Aqua Farms discs). The mother colony is 100% healed and coloring back up. I held all the frags untill they were healed and encrusting. All 14 frags made it to new homes.

[kinerson]

Anthony,
Have you heard of anyone propogating the Saddleback anemone? They look identical to the Carpet's which apparently are succesfully being sliced.
Greg

[Anthony Calfo]

yes, kinerson... they are some of the better "carpet" type anemones for captivity in general: tolerance of husbandry, handling... and somewhat better survivability on import than most other anemones.

[kinerson]

Great! I've had this one for over 5 years and it is an awesome neon green color. This would make a great addition to the anemone propogation efforts!

Thanks,
Greg

[TippyToeX]

What kind of anemone is a "saddleback"? :) S. haddoni?

[captbunzo]

That is correct...

[GTR]

Anyone have a phone number for Boston Aqua Farms?

The sites been down or somethings wrong with all 3 of my computers.

Thanks... SteveU

[captbunzo]

Down for me as well. Here is from the whois record:

Simmons, Jon
pyrojon@MEGANET.NET
17 Bridle Bridge Rd
Windham, NH 03087, US
781-979-9066

[kizanne]

speaking of planulae, I looking for some good pictures. I have some 'white dots' on my glass which aren't flatworms. Is there a site that would have some info on planulae size and what to look for also when the coral do a polyp bail out what do the polyps look like?

I too would be very interested in the RBTA split/cut info.

[MRCORAL]

Any ideas on fragging A devils hand?

[kinerson]

Ok so let's say you have a healthy carpet that's been in your caring hands for 5+years and your ready to make the split. What do you do? If I had to guess I would do as follows...


1) Isolate him from system (to avoid excess anemone stuff from circulating in system)

2) Determine best line to slice anemone in half (I'm assuming the actual slicing may take a few swipes to cut threw total thickness)

3) Place back in system in appropriate healing/growing location

4) Pray to God

Yes? No? More? Less? Once split and healed can the two be touching each other without damage occuring?

Greg

[captbunzo]

I would guess that your step #1 may actually be a bad idea. Isolating him from the system would end up putting him in a completely different environment - there is no way to match it all. That would probably stress him (her?) which is probably a bad thing to do right before you cut him in half.

Just a thought!

[Anthony Calfo]

Re: ANEMONE PROPAGATION

Paul is spot-on correct regarding any sort of long term move. But I think Kinerson is referring to simply taking the animal out to a bath/bucket for the propagation only... allowing the animal to purge its mucus, etc briefly before returning the halves to the display.

But yes... its true, the animal is to be conditioned and propagated in the same place essentially

And I'm praying to God that this and any anemone is not kept in reef tanks with corals... a staggeringly unnatural mix and the reason in part why so many fare so poorly in time. To then cut such an animal in a display and forcing it to heal while at the same time suffering the water quality of a toxic soup with so many other cnidarians, is just bad husbandry and bad technique.

The anemone should already be in a dedicated tank. Then after some months of conditioning and establishment... a simple equal bilateral split through the mouth with a new razor blade or scalpel will do the trick.

Seperate the halves with a lateral move in the tank (or lower, but never into higher light) and insure very good water flow around the cut edges. Within minutes/hours you will see the cut edge cinching closed. And within weeks you will have two healed and fully formed anemones (waiting to be split again soon ;))

[causeofhim]

And I'm praying to God that this and any anemone is not kept in reef tanks with corals... a staggeringly unnatural mix and the reason in part why so many fare so poorly in time. To then cut such an animal in a display and forcing it to heal while at the same time suffering the water quality of a toxic soup with so many other cnidarians, is just bad husbandry and bad technique.

[/B]

Are you serious?

[Anthony Calfo]

causeofhim... you've never been to a reef. Clearly :p

And after what is now approaching 20 years in the hobby for me, and seeing the track record of every animal you've ever seen in aquaria and then some... yes, I'm serious.

So many problems folks have with specific animals would be solved in an epiphany(!) if you could just make it to a reef and see the specific niches that some corals live in.

Until then... you'll just have to take the word of those of us that have ;)

Trachyphyllia open brain corals on rocks? Yikes! Nope... a free living coral on soft substrates. No wonder they abrade, tumble or simply suffer attritition in time when placed on rocks in a reef aquarium. A very slow death for most :(

Fungiids... same as the above.

Catalaphyllia (elegant corals) placed on rocks, under bright halides in clear water reef tanks... quite unnatural for some (free living collected colonies with conical corallums). Give them muddy, grassy lagoons baby!

Some Nerites and Red-footed snails... always climbing to to the top of your tank? Drowning, my friends. Sigh. Intertidal beasts. And an easy mistake to avoid with any small amount of research on the animal before(!) being purchased.

Anemones, cucumarids, etc roaming the tank and never staying in place... thanks to inadequate or unnatural water flow. They are searching (and usually find another coral to sting or be stung by instead unless they just go straight for death by powerhead or overflow :()

Acanthurus tangs pacing incessantly back and forth in your tank like they are seeing their reflection in the glass? Increase water flow (40-60X total in the tank) and don't be surprised if they stop. Surge and reef crest species.

Really... we should be surprised that so many creatures we keep in reef tanks adapt as well as they do to the staggeringly unnatural crowds on piles of rocks that too many folks call (garden mix) reef displays.

It's very disheartening for me to see advanced aquarists that should be well read enough to grow out of these mistakes :( (speaking generally here... not to anyone specific in this thread)

So much money invested... so much time invested... so many living organisms - treated like furniture at that point out of sheer ignorance (as in, 'not-knowing" yet still responsible).

Sigh... I'm bummed out now. I'm going to go scavenge some chocolate now and maybe listen to Metallica to sooth my nerves. I'll start with 'Fuel' :)

[captbunzo]

I think that there is perhaps an interesting balance to be found here. I suspect that if you came to my house and saw my 29G reef, there would at least be a couple of things on the "big time unnatural" chart that I am violating. I DO try, and am still somewhat of a newbie.

Anyhow, I THINK I had a point.

I think the best that most of us will end up doing will be to avoid most ends of the BAD spectrum and aim more and more (as we grow in the hobby) toward natural and more responsible husbandry. It can be tough to balance the desire to "experiment" around with different species with the responsibility to the creatures in which we are keeping.

I think also this may be clearer sometimes when compared to more terrestrial organisms. Let me try at a comparison.

Trying to get a chicken to live in a tree?

Ah, never mind on the examples, but the point was SUPPOSED to be that these things would seem rediculously stupid if we were talking about animals that we are more familiar with. I guess that means we use our ignorance as an excuse to pretty much do what we want to do anyway?

Ah, never mind. Maybe I need some chocolate and heavy metal now..... :D

[Anthony Calfo]

while my position may seem hardline, I assure you it is not. To define:

For animals with a natural (wild) lifespan of, for example, 20-30 years (as many large community fishes we keep have, such as Angels, Tangs, Serranids, etc) ... I'd be grateful to at least see them making it to ten years of age in aquaria. Longer would be nice. But there are great values and benefits to the use (sacrifice if you will) of such organisms even prematurely... education, inspiring young and older minds alike to greater empathy, global awareness of reef science issues, etc that really do pay great dividends on the species and all reef creatures for their use (captive keeping).

I recognize and treasure that dearly. I'd like to believe I'm living and practicing it by the mentoring work for other hobbyists that I do.

But what chides me is the very casual and flip nature that some hobbyists take by chalking up the lives of their creatures to "disposability" for the sake of selfish aesthetic preferences (or jusy plain laziness or frugality to buy or maintain proper systems, avoid crowding or unnatural mixes, etc).

With so many suitable and compatible species to be had in the trade... and so much(!) free and accurate information on natural settings and requirements for the animals we keep... is a little bit of discipline too much to ask?!? Whats so hard about that?

Carrying on with the example above of a 20-30 year fish living even just ten years... what of the fact that many marine fishes can live far beyond their average natural lifespan (records at the Nancy Aq in France... Shedd in Chi-town... SF, etc).

So are we being unreasonbale then to ask an aquarist to try to keep that same, say Tang for ten years when its potential lifespan is well over thirty? Clownfishes on record over 30 years... etc.

How about anemones and corals with no known senescence? The potential to live hundreds of years?

Really... my complaint here is against hobbyists that keep a coral or fish for 5 years or less (much less in too many cases) and call that success. Its not. And its shameful for anyone that also lays claims to regard the organisms we keep as anything more than a commodity.

This philosophy (anything akin) draws the line between conscientious aquaristrs and (literally) consumers.

I will not make apologies for anything less no matter how many people are keeping anemones in coral displays, Naso tangs in 55 gall tanks, etc ;)

Tell yourself whatever you need to get you through the night... but its still wrong if you want to lay any claim to my brand of ethics or responsible aquarium keeping.

C'mon people... we HAVE to walk the walk!

If we do not responsibly police ourselves... someone else will do it for us... and your not going to like it (legislation).

Outside of the bubble I'll call the US hobby, some frightening legislation is being proposed (and some has passed, as in EU) restricting or banning the collection of animals that we in the US take very much for granted as they are cheaply available (example... bubble coral in the US - $30, grandfathered bubble corals in Spain that can no longer be imported - folks are turning down $800).

I don't think I'm asking for much here! Its reasonable to want the animals that you and I keep to live at least one third of their potential!

I'm asking you to help us to help ourselves protect and preserve our hobby by the sensible use of the living resources.

And putting a motile cnidarian (such as an anemone) in a tank full (crowded really) of sessile cnidarians is not sensible. If it was... there would not be so many threads on anemones moving about the tank, stinging and being stung... and wiping out entire reef systems from the decay or damage (clogging pumps or overflows). It's wasteful and easily avoided with the smallest amount of effort or discipline. The folks that will preach to you that its OK, with rare exception, have had their anemones less than 3 years. Statistically... those keepers will become a statistic in time if my experience answering tragic e-mails and posts on RC and WWM alone is any indication (notice my post count here... I've answered far more over at WWM ;) I have some experience here. And some frustration at seeing slow progress from wasteful consumers).

Sigh... I'm gonna go and break out the big guns now. Yeah...






Neil Diamond's Greatest Hits





find a happy place :)

[captbunzo]

I apologize if I came across wrong in any manner, Anthony. I understand, respect, and agree with your stance on these things. And I appreciate the free, high quality education that you and many others provide in places such as this forum, etc, as well as the contributions you make in speaking engagements, etc.

Enjoy your happy place!

[Anthony Calfo]

heehe... no worries, Paul :p I'm eyeballs deep in a book edit today (this week... month, grrr)... so my ink quill is very sharp :D

A stickied thread like this is a good place for me to go off on rants with hope that some folks will ponder it now or in the future :)

[captbunzo]

Honestly, the rants are actually fun to read... :)

And they are good to remind us ALL of the bigger picture...

[Anthony Calfo]

mille grazie :)

[NicoleC]

I'd like to see livestock dealers market by biotype, not arbitrary categories based on polyp type or fish shape.

For example, instead of the usual categories of:
tangs, blennies, gobies, etc.
SPS, LPS, softies

It would be:
Caribbean
South American
eastern Indo-Pacific
western Indo-Pacific
Indian Ocean
Red Sea
etc.

With subcategories of:
intertidal
atoll
rocky reef
lagoonal
etc.

But truth be told, most dealers can't tell you where their livestock was collected. But they won't insist on finding out until WE do.

[Anthony Calfo]

spot on Nicole!

It would be so easy for them to find out this information... they talk to their collectors on the phone weekly or more often... the names on these lists are indeed arbitrary and could just as easily be listed as "reef crest Acanthurus" "mud flat Elegant" or "rubble zone Coral Beauty"

But the truth of the matter instead is that not enough consumers are bugging their LFS to bug their wholesalers, etc for this information!

So what we get instead is "Super-matallic tasty purple people eating hair-growing dome coral!" :p

Really... for those of you that have not had the pleasure of reading tranship lists... the names are every bit as hilarious as the ridiculous names you see on trendy corals in the retail sectors.

Yet the collectors in the islands have VERY specific places where they go to collect very specific animals. It's not like all fishes and corals we keep in our dreadful little hodg-podge tanks (;)) all come from all areas of all reefs in the, say, Indo-Pacific. Hardly so.

In so many cases... fishes like Flame Hawks from Tonga or Fiji come from only one side of one island in a very specific zone.

To report that information with a descriptive moniker wold surely be easier (less brain cells) than making up creative names, no?

Great point, again Nicole :)

[causeofhim]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
causeofhim... you've never been to a reef. Clearly :p
Actually, I have dove around the world and seen many reefs. I realize that many of our reef do not mimic the natural reefs. To do so would be almost impossible.
What I was asking originally was about your comment that you made . .
Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
And I'm praying to God that this and any anemone is not kept in reef tanks with corals... a staggeringly unnatural mix and the reason in part why so many fare so poorly in time. To then cut such an animal in a display and forcing it to heal while at the same time suffering the water quality of a toxic soup with so many other cnidarians, is just bad husbandry and bad technique.
[/B]
I've just never heard anyone before state that keeping an anemone in tank with other cnidarians was bad husbandry and bad technique.

[Anthony Calfo]

I don't see the confusion here, causeofhim

You do not find mandarinfishes near many anemones on the reef... and when mixed in tanks with anemones, they often get eaten by the anemone. Its no surprise. Numerous aquarists have sadly seen this. Some reading this thread no doubt (it's that common).

And you rarely see anemones among stony corals on on crowded reef crests... and when you mix them in displays, they move around regularly... often with the aforementioned tragic results. We hear this over and over again too.

How are such unnatural and inappropriate (read: poorly researched or even impulse purchases) mixes not bad husbandry or plainly obvious with small effort?

Don't shoot me... I'm just the messenger, please.

I also don't buy the "Impossible to replicate a reef in my aquarium so... full speed ahead, mix what you want" rationale.

I cannot fathom how you've actually been on reefs and yet do not understand the pysiological (motile versus sessile cnidarian) nature of this incompatability issue. Maybe just resort diving ;)

[dcoufal]

Doesn't rule #1 in marketing say to name things "Super-matallic tasty purple people eating hair-growing dome coral!" instead of mud flat Elegant"? ;)

The average person wants a "flashy" name; otherwise, everyone would use latin names, right? ;) :D

(Just playing devil's advocate, here....)

Dwain

[NicoleC]

The average person doesn't see the lists from the wholesalers. :D

[dcoufal]

Originally posted by NicoleC
The average person doesn't see the lists from the wholesalers. :D

No.... I'm talking about flashy names at the LFS and on-line. You know... where the average people go. :p

Dwain

[kinerson]

Anthony-

Thanks for the clarity on propogation technique for the carpet. A little more clarity though would be very much appreciated.

Yes you were right, my step #1 was to isolate him out of system with a bucket or something but of course he would still be in his home waters and temp :)

Asuming this was done in a 5 gal bucket, would leaving him in there after the cut for a short period of time and then perhaps gently "blowing" the mucus off of him before placing him back in the tank be a good thing? Would perhaps running some carbon also help out once placed back into main tank? Or would it perhaps be a bit over kill and simply resuming normal system upkeep be enough?

Thanks
Greg

[Anthony Calfo]

you are spot on Greg... do prop techniques when possible in a bath or bucket outside of the aquarium... heat the water if the episode will taken more than a few minutes (as with making many frags or doing multiple species at a sitting).

Do change the bath or bucket water a couple of times before returning the fragged specimens back to the holding tank or display. And using fresh carbon afterwards is a good idea as long as you have been using it regularly in weeks prior (trying to avoid light shock here form a sudden increase in water clarity).

A water change after a fragging event and/or ozone use is also helpful and recommended.

As for the "heated baths." One of the easiest ways to accomplish this for multiple buckets is to fill your sink or laundry tub with just enough water so that buckets inside do not float (hint: have more water in the bucket than you do in water height in the sink ;)). You can slip a small submersible heater into a PVC tube (to protect it from breaking against steel or porcellain tubs... or from melting plastic sinks). Adjust the temp and rest easy that you can work longer on your frags without temp shock at least.

Happy friggin fraggin... er, something like that. (Hmmm... that did not sound polite at all :p)

[Anthony Calfo]

Dwain... I/we do see your point, but as I think Nicole was pointing out... the names in many cases are handed down.

So somewhere between the nauseating, flashy and unhelpful names... and a simple GPS coordinate point from the reef for a name, is the ideal :D

And if we as consumers demand more info (is that a Fijiian CB, or a Phililppino one?), then the word will travel up the chain of command/custody.

Moreover... with the tiniest bit of research (hobby books, online here, good database websites, etc) a large number of creatures can be identified to a specific location on the reef by their color or morphology alone.

Some examples...

Turbinaria peltata: cup form (deeper water and/or lower water flow)... "pagoda" form (shallower water and/or higher water flow)

Acropora: short stout fingers (high water flow, usually shallow)... fine branches [ala bottlebrush] (deeper water, weaker water flow) and/or very dark color [often brownor green] (deeper or more turbid water)

"Wall" form to the stony skeleton (like "Hammer coral") hails from hard substrates/rocks... conical skeletons (Trachyphyllia usually) are for nestling in soft substrates like sand or mud.

Form follow function. And the forms of the creatures we keep are so revealing if we take just a little time in advance to discover the wonder if not science of their adaptations.

It's frankly a tragedy to me to see an aquarist with hundreds or thousands of dollars in live coral (and who knows how much money spent on coral/frags that died)... yet they do not own fundamental ID references like Alderslade (2001) for soft corals, or Veron for stonies... they often have never heard of algae-base.org, fishbase.org, scholar.google.com... the Breeders Registry (for marine species).

but they keep buying fishes and corals... though usually no QT tank either.


Sigh.... oh, I feel it coming....





yeah....





it's a bad one...







Prince's Purple Rain.

[kinerson]

LOL, your a riot!

[causeofhim]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo

I also don't buy the "Impossible to replicate a reef in my aquarium so... full speed ahead, mix what you want" rationale.

I cannot fathom how you've actually been on reefs and yet do not understand the pysiological (motile versus sessile cnidarian) nature of this incompatability issue. Maybe just resort diving ;)

Wow Anthony! I've always enjoyed your comments and youir insight. I think your editing has driven you a bit hard because your comments towards me are quite harsh. :sad1:
OK, I'll stop crying now.
Anyhow.
I dont recall saying "full speed ahead, mix what you want" nor did I even think that. Also, I've done many dives and been on many reefs thoughout the South Pacific (GBR and Fiji), Hawaii, and throughout the Carribean and never once went with a "fluffy resort dive". I understand how certain types of cnidarians live together and why.

I just was shocked to hear you say that it was poor practice to keep an anemone in a tank with othetr corals.

IME I have a RBTA in a tank stocked with other corals and it has not moved an inch. Nor have I ever lost any of my corals. The RBTA has only been in about a year, but I will be sure to keep you updated on weather it does any damage within it's 20 year lifespan.;)

[Anthony Calfo]

The BTA (Entacmea quadricolor) is one of the only anemones that is relatively easy to satisy flow and light reqs in aquaria... as such it is indeed one of the better choices for use.

Heteractis crispa and H. malu as well as Macrodactylus doreensis are some of the few anemones that ship reasonably well, and are also reasonably easy to care for.

Others are just enormous once mature regardlkess of hardiness or not (carpet type anemones getting a meter or more in diameter... who hasa tank to give up for that? Few people are willing).

But the overwhelming majority of anemones collected for live trade ship dismally... and some have no practical chance of surviving in typical reef aquaria at all (magnifica/ritteri... truly in need of a specialist/specialized tank).

Sadly... even the best anemones have rather poor sustainability in the wild (as mentioed previously).

That reality really amplifies the tragedy of poor shipping and the inappropriate tanks that most all make it into.

It is the impetus for claims of poor use of a living resource.

I suppose that is my bottom line concern - wanting to see a more responsible use of the limited living resource.

[causeofhim]

Amen!

[captbunzo]

And here's to my latest night at work, tonight, and finishing it off well with another half dozen posts to read in this thread. Thank you much, ladies & gentlemen.

Now, home and to bed with me for my 3 hours of sleep before I have to come back! :D

[fishdoc11]

Great thread:D

The one problem I see with cutting acros into wafers is that you have less continuous intact tissue(if that makes sense). IME frags(the traditional "finger" kind) less than 1/2" have a poorer survival rate than ones that are 1-2" long. I am assuming wafers are cut ~ 1/4". I know that frags cut at 1/4" have a very poor survival rate. Maybe I'm missing something.................

thanks, Chris

[Kreeger1]

I agree Chris, that has been my experience as well. And just wondering what tool to use to get acro branches to wafer thin pieces without killing the whole branch while doing it.
Erik

[Anthony Calfo]

Erik/Chris... I 'm not sure what your/the problem is with rates of morbidity/mortality... many folks have trouble with such small frags because they are fragging from frags that themselves have only been held for weeks/months... or if longer, poorly fed and conditioned.

I have made thousands of such frags (understatement) and find it to be one of the most productive methods. The exposed corallum is not dead either. The matrix is alive, healing is fast, and the surace area is strategically wide enough that more than one corallite will necessarily form. It's time tested and successful. Eric B concurs, I am certain, from his work with both Pacific and Atlantic stonies (academic).

As for the tool, Erik, please read back in the post... lapidary saw or simply a ceramic wet tile saw.

[Kreeger1]

Well I'll give my trusty wetsaw a try at it. I've always come to the conclusion that the flat mounted sps corals vs. the stick like mounting didn't look as nice or sell as well. It takes what maybe a month if that tho get a sps branch to start to encrust on a plug/rubble rock and it resembles the parent colony. The side mount takes much longer to resemble the parent colony which inturn causes people to past on that frag. I agree that in a few maybe 6 months the frag mounted sideways will be much nicer and larger but it todays fast paced society everyone wants it today, bigger, better, faster.
But hey, after7-8 years of making sps frags and using different methods to make them, I'll go ahead and give the wetsaw a try at the sps corals.
I'll take some pictures too.
Erik

[Marcelog]

Yes, pics lease. I'd love to see this.

Marcelo -

[Anthony Calfo]

we have different perspectives here Erik. The chop shop mentality of fast fragging is what has got us to this (good point) in the hobby... but it will not support us wholly or even remotely close to being self-sustaining: hence the start of this thread and my initial points: optimizing techniques among known successful strategies.

You will produce more mass by waiting longer and growing more branches that grow more braches, etc than if you simply take the fast cash/quick turnaround perspective. That perspective is not wrong, again, but it is also not the topic or direction of this thread for optimizing productivity.

[fishdoc11]

many folks have trouble with such small frags because they are fragging from frags that themselves have only been held for weeks/months... or if longer, poorly fed and conditioned.

I am refering to multi generation tank raised corals(all of my "sps" are multi generation tank raised:) ) that have prospered in my tanks for years. I don't make a habit of making pieces that small but the invariable frags made from cleaning/rearanging etc....that are smaller than I would like maybe do well 50-75% of the time. Also I have fragged out large plating Montiporas several times and the tiny 1/4 "left over" pieces seem to have somewhere around a 50-75% survival rate also. I can't remember the last frag I made over 1" that died. Anyway, I don't doubt that you and Eric have had good success with the wafer method. Possible contributing factors could be multiple pieces so that if one or two die no harm done and possibly the cut made by the biamond blade being cleaner than the one made by side cutters or mere clumsiness? :p

At any rate I love the thread and very much aprechiate it:D

thanks, Chris

[Kreeger1]

You will produce more mass by waiting longer and growing more branches that grow more braches, etc than if you simply take the fast cash/quick turnaround perspective. That perspective is not wrong, again, but it is also not the topic or direction of this thread for optimizing productivity.
I do understand that point completely, but I was just posting my views as to what people want to buy. Sorry bout that.

Its a little cold here in Cleveland so I'm going to wait till the weekend to fire up the torpedoe heater and get out the wet saw.

I often thought about buying a ok sized piece of acropora and breaking up all the branches to glue up on one rock. Let the small branches become one larger mass that way. I'm going to give that a try to this weekend and document some of those pictures.
Erik

[Anthony Calfo]

sounds like a very cool idea, Erik. I can see a magnificent staghorn-ish species growing to a magnificent tangled mass from such an effort :) So many neat fish behviors to observe for such displays too.

[causeofhim]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
Re: ANEMONE PROPAGATION
And I'm praying to God that this and any anemone is not kept in reef tanks with corals... a staggeringly unnatural mix and the reason in part why so many fare so poorly in time.... is just bad husbandry and bad technique.
The anemone should already be in a dedicated tank. Then after some months of conditioning and establishment...


Do you forsee problems if these tanks are all connected to the same sump as well? For example a 120 gal SPS tank, a 60 gal anemone tank, and a 60 gal propagation tank all using the same 100 gal sump and skimmer. Would there be problems with propagating the corals and anemones in their dedicated tanks if all tanks share the same water?

[Kreeger1]

've got a nice 14-16" piece of blue tip staghorn that might get a little haircut. hummm maybe a few 8-10 branch tips off the top sliced and glued to the rock its growing on.
Its tall not a wide colony, 2 main branchs that reach up lie 10 inches before they start to branch off.

[Anthony Calfo]

separate tanks on central filtration does very little to assist in optimal propagation of any given coral or anemone unless you have extraordinary water quality (huge weekly or better), daily ozone, weekly carbon exchanges, etc.

The sensation (chemical) of dense, competitive cnidarians and their exudations (even beyond allelopathy if/when present) will stimulate behaviors in other specimens (namely defense) that steal energies that could otherwise be used for healing, growth and/or reproduction.

Mixing corals and anemones on display is one thing... but when you make the jump to propagation, compromises must be made as per earlier references to farming versus display keeping.

The loss in vigor, heath/healing and productivity for the chemical soup of central filtration is not worth the savings on the purchase of an additional skimmer, etc.

So many corals and anemones are so very profitable in such a short period of time (cycle of harvest) that monoculture is not only better for the animals (health), but its also more productive (mass and/or profits generated)

[causeofhim]

That is what I thought. Thanks

[Jadran]

Many reefers today looking forward to keep stoney corals or other species which we're impossible to keep not so long ago.
I'm not really sure whats the attraction? is it the their status of being "hard to keep," is it nutrient poor system they need or is it just all about colors..hmm.. it might be bit of all. I don't think people today are excited about softies as they are about sps and such...

But how about true old tank, aquarium that houses 20 years old yellow tang or coral thats been growing all this time inside?

Recently I posted some nice pics at my local Croatian forum that you might find interesting, if you like old school reefkeeping talks.

enoy ;)

http://www.elegancereef.com/smf/index.php?topic=1206.0

[Anthony Calfo]

Mario, as you can see now - I have merged your thread here in light of a recent twist on the care of fish and invertebrates as it relates to some commonalities of successful regimes, such as less crowding, monocultures, potential lifespans, etc.

BTW - the chap Mirko you have pictured in your link is a dear friend of mine from Croatia! He's working to translate my Book of Coral Propagation in Italian. What a surprise to see him pictured :D Ah... what a wonderfully small world it is sometimes :)

To all... note how often mature displays evolve into a limited number of thriving specimens of like species/genera. Now consider what is happening instead when you glue fifty 1" assorted sps frags mere inches apart in a 50 gallon aquarium ;)

[ALTI]

or even worse is 4x50 gal tanks sharing a common sump with over 600 mixed softie frags and colonies. my fingernails were growing faster. seperating the species into seperate tanks helped a little, but the more frags i add the slower things seem to grow.
http://altisreef.com/images/DSC00124.JPG

[Jadran]

Mario, as you can see now - I have merged your thread here in light of a recent twist on the care of fish and invertebrates...

OK, glad to help.. but now I have to read all 5 pages to get idea about ommonalities of successful regimes, such as less crowding, monocultures, potential lifespans... damn! :D

..Mirko you have pictured in your link is a dear friend of mine from Croatia! He's working to translate my Book of Coral Propagation in Italian. What a surprise to see him pictured Ah... what a wonderfully small world it is sometimes..

Yes, small indeed, I've ben told you guys know each other.. (saw pics he took at MACNA).... I hope he'll bring you over to Croatia some day so we could discuss vine and other Croatian reefkeeping strategies in greater depths ;)

[Anthony Calfo]

well put my friend... indeed I and other corals farmers have had that same epiphany when deveiloping a regime for farming efforts.

The more/different species you add to a system... the more energy is spent by them on activities other than growth and reproduction. And oftentimes, growth is also stymied literally because of the physical reduction of light and water flow from the crowd(ing).

But as you keenly point out... its not just about different species sometimes. Beyond the issue of crowding that reduces flow, light and feeding opportunities... there is the issue of isogyny (or not). That is to say... not all species will tolerate others of the same species(!) unless they are clones from the same parent.

The speaks to the mantra I often pitch about coral farming being a lot mor like real "farming" (Ag) than like aquarium keeping.

[ALTI]

As i get more tanks up and running the species are getting closer and closer to monospecific. Im thinking of going as far as to have dual monospecific cultures. One for cuttings and healing mother colonies and the other for growout. Do u think that this is overkill? It seems logical to me that any coral sliming or releasing defensive compounds into the water will effect growth even if it is from the same species.

[Anthony Calfo]

Thats not overkill at all bro... I recommend no less than two pools for each species. Three minimum ideally. Staggered growout/propping tanks... and one reserve broodstock tank (untouched mostly)

[ALTI]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I cant believe the Steelers lost to the Bungles.

Thanks man. What is the reason for seperating the growing frags from the mother colonies? Does it apply for all types of corals?

[Anthony Calfo]

I can't talk about the Steelers loss right now... it just hurts too much :( :p


IMPORTANT: seperating frags from mother colonies

Seperate the frags literally/spacially from the parent/donor to spur growth for improved exposure to light and water flow (rather than keep unfragged parent clustered)

... and also separate frags from the parent/donor system-wise beacuse you do not want cut, mucous and potentially infectious frags (newly made/stressed) in the same water as the parent/donors(!) that support your entire operation/project!

[ALTI]

i am also in alot of pain.

thanks

[cutsupremetrib]

wow great thread Im kinda a newbie here I learned something hopefully... I am now going to be moving my condy to my 12 gallon nano that has nothing in it and away from my display tank that is full of different corals will the anemone do fine in my 12 gallon with 24 watts of lighting and nothing else but rocks in the tank and a single crab also what lighting should a montipora digitata be under?

[Anthony Calfo]

cutsupremetrib... your montipora and anemone will need a minimum of 5 watts per gallon of new fluorescent lamps in the 6500-10k K range ideally. They will also need to be kept in less than 18" of water to fare well under such light. Let me also request that you post new/off topic questions in a new thread my friend. That way more people can better find and post to your question rather than have it dilute another thread like this one and perhaps handicap the feedback you will get.

[cutsupremetrib]

sorry for the diluting... umm i think i'll be just fine my display has a 400 watt 13k metal halide where the monti is located and my anemone was in the same tank now its in my 12 gallon I will be updating soon I'll put this in a different thread thanks mr calfo

[gussy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6155583#post6155583 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by delta
well Anthony could probably explain it better but it is pretty simple

tools- Exacto knife (scalpels shaped)boiled to sterilize
Gloves
Goggles (you never know)
Gladware disposable container


It was not attached so it was easy to remove from my fuge.
Then I placed it on a clean piece of acrylic.
Now for the fun :D I took the exacto knife stabbed it directly into the middle of the mouth of the anemone then cut towards the outer edge.

Next I rotated the specimen 180 degrees and started from the same point of the mouth to the opposite outer edge to finish.

The two halves then took a bath in the gladware container while took a photo then I rinse them a bit and returned them to the Fuge.

It only took about five minutes once I had all tools and things ready.

Is there any reason why I can't use a big Chinese kitchen cleaver and hard chop it half with just one blow? I don't think I can slowly cut an anemone like a cake.

[Pyrrhus]

Generally it is better to cut rather than to crush, and I think just by the nature of the blow from the cleaver there will be some crushing.

Just seems more traumatic to me than a good clean cut with a scalpel or exacto knife, although there is something to be said about a quick procedure.

[cutsupremetrib]

pyrrhus
AGREED

[jnowell]

First off, a big thanks to you Anthony, after reading your Coral Prop. book (twice) I now have a spare 58g coral prop tank, supplying Zoas, Ricordea, and Zenia (and snails) to my LFS. My hats off to you.

OK, so I want to frag my long-tentacle anenome. It has 1 year in a well established 150g system, and it's very healthy and well fed (disc is 10"-12" dia.). Problem is, I'm rearing Clarkii clowns from parents that host in that anenome. Do you think fragging it would disrupt the spawning of the Clarkii's?

PS, I'm also an avid scuba diver, and your remarks on observing things on a natural reef is spot on, I recently rearranged one of my tanks after returning from a dive trip to Belize.

[Anthony Calfo]

pyrrhus... well said. TY :)

jnowell... thanks kindly. And re: your anemone, I do not think the removcal of the clowns (or anemone) for proapagtion will affect the spawning cycle much if at all. Well fed fishes breed readily. And no commercial clownfish facility needs/uses anemones to any significant extent, if at all. Flower pots/caves, and various other surrogates are better for sterility and ease of care. A majority of clowns in the wild also spawn without host anemones. No worries here.

[robsmith32]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6306343#post6306343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pyrrhus
Generally it is better to cut rather than to crush, and I think just by the nature of the blow from the cleaver there will be some crushing.

Just seems more traumatic to me than a good clean cut with a scalpel or exacto knife, although there is something to be said about a quick procedure.

but wouldnt' the cleaver, be more like the natural way the frag/divide in the wild? as being flung against a rock.

[robsmith32]

Anthony, also, i Say thanks, and i'm sure others feel the same about your patience with "hobbyist" when saying as i've seen you repeat over and over about not putting motile with sessile.
and thanks for the Freely given education and help. Especially, when the info is already in one of your books that i'm guilty of still needing to pick up.

[Anthony Calfo]

no worries, my friends... it is truly my pleasure. A labor of love, at worst :p

But you are quite welcome :)

[jnowell]

We have 10,000 people willing to give us free "advice", but only about 10 willing to give free education. When I think about what I've learned from you in chats, books, posts, etc., I have to wonder how much you've personally done for marine eco-systems worldwide...captive and wild. In my house alone, I went from an unhealthy 58g "reef", to a 130 gallon display, a 58g coral propogation tank, a clownfish hatchery, and a LFS that buys less wild caught specimens than before. I've also joined forces with a friend, so we can propogate more corals and fishes, and we started a local reef club.

Multiply that by the thousands of people who have learned from you, and you've made on heck of difference. A drop in the bucket of what we need, but a seriously good start, and one that you should be proud of.

OK, enough of that, someone ask him why your Zoanthids won't grow on your anenome tentacles. He'll get the big head unless we get him off on another rant :D

[causeofhim]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6325854#post6325854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnowell
OK, enough of that, someone ask him why your Zoanthids won't grow on your anenome tentacles.

What are you taking about? Mine do.:bounce2:

[Anthony Calfo]

heehee... some days I do indeed have a hair-trigger on the rant gun. Well... it's not really a gun... it's more like a water pistol. Wanna guess what kind of water? ;) :p

I certainly do hope to be making a difference too... especially as an educator. It gives me great pleasure when/if so to make a difference in the world. In sincerely hope to earn my keep, at minimum, while I'm on this planet :)

[Casperson]

After seeing Mario's picts. I could see my little 55gal. going in a direction like that! Very cool!

I have a Colt coral that has been dropping small branches for about 2 weeks now, (doesn't seem to be stopping, how long will this go on?). The Colt looks like it's giving itself a hair cut. :-) The branches were long and gangly, now it's more even. I've put about 2-3 frags in small plastic cups with some rubble and they have already attached. Some of the larger ones I've attached to plugs with bridal vail material which I can remove within a 3 day period and attachent has occured. Some I have noticed in various parts of the tank already attached. Is there anything I should be doing to keep these new ones healthy? I will most likely keep all these babies. Can I attach the new frags close to the mother? creating a larger group together? Any help would be appreciated.

Just a beginner hear, not looking to start my own business, but want to do what is responsible.

Thanks for all the education here.
Tom C

[ALTI]

just make sure the ones that stray to other parts of the tank get enough light and flow. you can put them together but dont overcrowd them. i have 2 capnellas that drop about 40 babies a year.

you can always come to the new jersey reefers club monthly meeting and trade some of them :). dont know where u r in jersey, but january's meeting is at my place in hackensack.

rob

[reefboyjim]

Thanks to every one who posted tips on fragging anemone's. I just fragged my 3 inch carpet and it seems to be taking well to being cut.

[new2u]

Wow, very impressive

[Cruzer619]

Anthony,

do you have pics of the waffer technique. would like to see examples of this.

Thanks

Richie

[Aussie Koi]

Anthony another great thread!!
Thank you again.
Regards
Tim

[thebicyclecafe]

Thank you so much Anthony.

[aiber]

Haven't had time to read the entire thread.....Quick question:

Where can I buy bone shears? HD or Lowes don't have them...They have to be stainless steel right? Thank you

[midknight]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6167211#post6167211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthony Calfo
yes... agreed my friend. Ceramic tiles and marble are generally very good too. Much better in fact (coral settlement/no curing) than poorly made cement plugs... but indeed, a lot more expensive too. Heehee... I'll preach to folks to use marble, but I use the cement plugs myself moreoften at present :D Just more affordable, lighter weight and easier/accessible.

Hi Anthony,

You talk about a few types of surfaces to use how well does slate work? I have top from a slate pool table and was hoping to get some use out of it. I was going to try to get a number of purple star polyps going and have a lot of slate on hand.

Dan

[dlopes]

Hi,

Today I fraged my Acropora efflorescens... here are the pics (they are self explanatory)...

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_27.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_28.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_29.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_31.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_34.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_35.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_36.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_37.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7711_40.jpg

Cheers,
Diogo

[asnatlas]

dlopes, thanks for the pics...

[dlopes]

Check out this two small videos...

http://www.supload.com/vid/MOV08283/74610202/mpg/

http://www.supload.com/vid/MOV08284/1006964068/mpg/

Cheers,
Diogo

[Redstratplayer]

how do you frag open and pinaple brains any pics?

[Redstratplayer]

how do you frag open and pinaple brains any pics?

[DrBDC]

Diogo, or anyone who knows,

Why do you score beyond the inside of the ring that you remove?

[Konadog]

I think what you see is the wet coral skeleton dust that was thrown up by the dremmel. It looks like a score, but is easily wiped off.

[DrBDC]

Ahhh, ok. It had me curious if maybe scoring it that way encouraged more growth or something. Thanks.

[George Grogan]

bump

[2t2_crash]

fragged a ball of zoas I got for free from the LFS. They had all grown around each other so I separated two of them from the group then glued them all to a dead piece of coral I had pulled off the beach.
we'll see how they do.

oh, and bump for a good thread

[Kolognekoral]

Good bump,

I'ld like to see how Diogo's A. efflorescens frags did. It's such an impressive coral, but rarely seen in good shape.