Vodka with softies?

[ClarkiiClown]

I have been reading up on the Vodka method but I have a couple of questions- what about softies? Most of the people I see dosing Vodka have SPS.

I have read about decreases in algaes is this true?

What about dosing? A max of 1ML per 50gal is this correct? Starting and .1ML per day.

Thanks in advance!

[boxfishpooalot]

I think it could decrease certain algae like hair algae, but not cyano wich could itself benefit from vodka. Its a bacteria as well.

Fwiw, i would not dose vodka, but go with Randy's suggestion of using sugar as a carbon source for bacteria.

I would like to know more on why this works.

[ClarkiiClown]

Can you point me in the direction of the info on using sugar instead of vodka?

[Jens Kallmeyer]

Hi

make a search in the chemistry board, there is at least one very long thread to this subject.

Happy reading

Jens

[boxfishpooalot]

I cant find a suggested page to read, or any for that matter. But i remember that its very small amounts. Also keep in mind that using vodka, sugar ect.(carbon sources) results in a huge lowering of oxygen. Why? Because the bacteria use up the oxygen. You dont want dead fish, so put a pinch for ever 200gallons imo. go safe, rather than sorry.

Fwiw, Randy does not recommend using sugar or vodka. But go post there to get more technical. Hes a great guy. :)

[Ti]

I started tryig beer.

[michaeldaly]

when your tanlking about vodka do you mean the drink, or is it something else.

[wds21921]

No they mean the drink.

I've seen some disastrous results from doing this and refuse to buy into the hype and claims.
This seems to show up about every 3-4 months.

[coreygoforth]

never heard of it

[gussy]

Doesn't work for me...vodka that is. I still have half of that huge bottle from Costco, and I don't drink vodka either. What do I do with it? Flush it down the drain and use the bottle to mix lime?

[Roadtoad]

I used lab grade 70% ethanol instead of vodka. Since I dont have 5 identical tanks I tried it 5 seperate times with a month rest in between. Each time, the phosphate levels dropped quickly and nitrate went down much more slowly. A couple (2/5)of times I noticed a short-lived cyano bloom. The softies didnt seem to like the ethanol initially but they came back once I backed off the dosage. The skimmer definitely changed the night after ethanol started.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I din't say that sugar was better, only that vodka (ethanol), vinegar (acetic acid), and sugar (sucrose) all are carbon sources that drive bacteria, and that I had tried sugar years ago with mediocre results, and sometimes use vinegar now to keep the pH down as I dose limewater.

Here's a big thread:

dosing vodka to bring down N and P
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288714

[boxfishpooalot]

Right, sorry about that Randy:hmm2:

[kevin2000]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6324064#post6324064 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
FWIW, I din't say that sugar was better, only that vodka (ethanol), vinegar (acetic acid), and sugar (sucrose) all are carbon sources that drive bacteria Perhaps you can explain a bit about carbon sources driving bacteria ... are these sources targeting a particular type of bacteria (anaerobic?) and since we live in a carbon based world why are these substances more beneficial than the other carbon sources we stick in the tank? Any insight appreciated.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Okay. I'm going to go out on a branch here. This could be totally wrong now. And it is also an answer to how I perceive your question, Kevin2000. I could be WAAAYYY off though.

The use of these carbon sources, such as sucrose and ethanol, get directly used as immidiate energy so they can process their "food" (nitrates, phosphates, etc) for more carbon source energy so they can keep on living and reproducing. It's a give and take situation. You give it the "power" to live, and it will live harder/better. And in order for it to live, it needs to "digest" those simple organic compounds that we have building up in our tanks into something useful. Here is an example, and please pardon the adolescense of it. But think of this scientifically, please. It's the only useful example I can think of. Sperm store and use simple sugars (sucrose if I remember right) that is also found in the semen in order to power themselves to achieve their goal of getting to the egg and fertilizing it. You can power-up these cells by adding excessive amounts of simple sugar. They immidiately use it and you can see that in the statistical finding of doctors that study this. They are more aggressive and energetic to get their life goal finished. To put this in terms of our anaerobic and aerobic bacteria, when we add a carbon source they aggressively try to complete their lifes goal. Which in our case is use nitrates, phosphates, and other compounds to grow and reproduce. That is their life goal. We are just giving them the steroids to do it :) But, as to why the carbon sources that Randy has listed are better than others is because they are simple compounds that are readily consumed by the bacteria. I'm sure you could add some other source, but it would have to break down into a simpler form first.

Now which bacteria is powered by what carbon source is better left to the real experts.

Now what I want to know is does the marine bacteria that uses these carbon sources to help reduce organic compounds store extra energy? Do they store it in their mitochondria (spelling?)? Do bacteria have mitochondria?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have no idea which bacteria are most efficient in using these compounds, but I expect they are both anaerobic and aerobic. :)

[michaeldaly]

Would glucose also be a siutable source of carbon

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would glucose also be a siutable source of carbon

Yes.

Some proponents of the vodka system claim to have tried a variety of carbon sources, and find ethanol best from a cost perspective and because they claim, it drives the "right" bacteria more than do other sources (like sugar)

[JRPhd]

Vodka, is there anything it can't do? :celeb1:

[titoreefs]

im new on this "vodka" method.Can anyone tell me the procedures on how its used or dosed.Wich is the best way to use it? its mention in the thread that this method reduses phosphates.Is this true?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

its mention in the thread that this method reduses phosphates.Is this true?

That is why people dose it: to reduce nitrate and phospahte.

This thread has more info:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288714

[Ralistin]

This is for the guy earlier in the posting with the bottle of vodka and doesn't know what to do with it. SEND IT TO ME! :D

[eleodes]

i chase vodka with a siphoned mouthful of tankwater.

[Ochi]

No bacteria don't have mitochondria, they don't really have any membrane bound organelles.

But I'm curious about this method...hmm

[Amphiprion]

Technically, they don't even have organelles, unless you consider ribosomes to be an organelle of some sort (I don't). Seems like a viable way to reduce levels. I just do not like the thin margin of error.

[StupidsReef]

[i] Do bacteria have mitochondria? [/B]


From what I understand about Mitochondria it is the very life source for any and all life on earth. Including any type of bacteria.
So your answer would be YES they do.

[petermai]

i'm not sure if i'm misreading or misunderstanding and looking for some clarification...so the whole sugar and vodka addition to the water will lower nitrate in the short run or will this actually encourage the "beneficial" bacteria to thrive to process nitrate into nitrogen gas for the long run?

i have a major nitrate problem...i'm using the aquarium pharmaceutical's "saltwater master" test kit and i tested the water tonight and it's giving me a really odd reading, well, the rating for nitrate on the test card is odd to me overall. the test's telling me that my nitrate level is at 160ppm while all of my fishes are happy and my zoo's colony are doing fine.

i now have about a foot cube's worth of chaeto in my sump/refugium. so my question is that should i let nature take its course or should i use the additives to cut the nitrate problem down for the short run to give the chaeto time to catch up?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so the whole sugar and vodka addition to the water will lower nitrate in the short run or will this actually encourage the "beneficial" bacteria to thrive to process nitrate into nitrogen gas for the long run?

It drives bacterial growth. If those bacteria are skimmed out or otherwise removed, then it is a permanent export of nutrients. If they grow into mats that will later die and degrade, then it is temporary.

I prefer macroalgae to bacteria, since it is easier to localize and control, and does not consume O2, but both can work.

[Hobster]

After reading through the other lengthy threads, I am not able to arrive at a what a good starting dosage of Vodka would be?

Anyone have a safe/very conservative staring amount per 50 gals??

[zimmy1979]

One shot for me..one shot for my tank..one shot for me...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After reading through the other lengthy threads, I am not able to arrive at a what a good starting dosage of Vodka would be?

Anyone have a safe/very conservative staring amount per 50 gals??

In terms of the carbon load delivered, a few mL vodka per 100 gallons of tank water per day is a similar carbon loading to what folks use who are dosing vinegar with limewater.

So 1 mL per day seems a reasonable place for you to start. I'd add it in the AM after the lights come on. More conservative would be lower. :D

[Hobster]

Thanks Randy.
Sure doesn't take much. I have some Vodka in the closet from who knows what year. We sure won't ever drink it.:D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Let us know what happens. :)

[grim]

What about using Calcium Gluconate as a carbon source?

grim

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Calcum gluconate, not Seachem's calcium polygluconate? The former may be fine. It adds calcium and alkalinity, and may drive bacteria as well. The Seachem product is more complicated, and I do not think the fate of the polygluconate is well known.

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6558552#post6558552 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by StupidsReef
From what I understand about Mitochondria it is the very life source for any and all life on earth. Including any type of bacteria.
So your answer would be YES they do.

Actually, as posted earlier, bacteria do not have mitochondria. In fact, mitochondria have alot of similarities to bacteria. Some believe that mitochondria originated by some form of bacteria becoming intracellular symbionts in primitive cells. The intracellular bacteria slowly lost their ability to live independantly and now exist only as intracellular mitochondria. Bacteria themselves have the same sort of metabolic enzymes and structure within their cytoplasm as occur within mitochondria.

Allen