Pinktail trigger hasn't eaten in almost 2 months!!

[Bill Shultz]

Hello all,

I've got a 55 gallon FOWLR setup and it is home to a porcupine puffer, a small yellow tang, and until recently a beautiful pinktail trigger. The pinktail has moved into my quarantine tank (with the permanent resident clownfish) because about 2 months ago the pinktail suddenly stopped eating and began to hide almost 24 hrs a day. The change was almost overnight and he went from actively eating and swimming to his current state of being so subdued that you can grab him by hand, and now he just lays on the bottom of the tank.

My water parameters haven't changed much, but I'm wrestling with nitrates (~50-80ppm) and hoping that my remote DSB will kick in soon to help get these under control.

Otherwise, my parameters are:
Salinity 1.025
Temp: 79
Ammonia: zero
Nitrite: zero
pH: 8.2

I don't test for anything else. I do about a 25% water change monthly (unless I'm trying to knock my nitrates down further, and so I've been doing about 25% every two weeks lately.) I run carbon and phosphate remover.

I have tried force feeding him shrimp and even tube feeds with limited success.

Anyone have any ideas, or had experience with similar unexplained behavior?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56016RC-Ruger.jpg

[Puffer Queen]

Bill,

From the picture, the trigger does not look pinched or thin.....are you sure it has been 2 months.....any chance, he/she is nibbling when you are not looking.

How long has the trigger been in QT?

Have you tried freshwater ghost shrimp (gut loaded with vitamins) yet?

Best of luck,
Kelly

[Titan*69]

Nice pic,two months???She had to of been snacking somewhere.I would seriously work hard on trying to rectify the nitrate levels in your tank.50-80 IMO is very high,I freak when mine hit 20 but usually maintain 0-10.Is anybody picking on the Trig? How much LR in the tank? By the photo she looks healthy.

[VolitanLioness]

Do not try force feeding this fish, try mysis, crab leg clipped in a nori clip, Nori should be fed daily.

My Pinktail eats & eats everything but when spooked it gets very shy, even if I move furniture around in my living room it takes the pinktail days to re-adjust.

Nori everyday is important in their diet along with a variety of meaty foods (Mysis, Fresh Raw Shrimp, Octo, Squid, Frozen peas (thawed), Formula I & II Pellets, Spectrum pellets & Crab. ) soaked in vitamins.

Try the ghost shrimp, feed the ghost shrimp something nutritional first (cyclopezee, pellets, flake food) before feeding the trigger, like Kelly recommended.

Kaye

[Bill Shultz]

Puffer Queen,

There is no doubt that this fish has not eaten in about 2 months. The pic that I included above was before this hunger strike. I'll post a recent picture later to show you -- although it is pretty sad.

I put the Trigger in QT after about 6 weeks of the no feeding as I figured maybe I needed to prepare for the fish to die or undertake some sort of force feeding or other sort of drastic measures.

To further describe the story, this overnight change occured when I introduced the yellow tang into the tank. I did a water change and introduced the tang, and the trigger freaked out and has never been the same. I am also sure that this current tang is not physically bothering the pinktail at all, but the pinktail did have a very bad experience with an overly aggressive tang months earlier (very malicious fish that would stab others and pester everyone constantly.) That aggressive tang is no longer in my tanks, and either way the pinktail is currently in a QT tank where nobody is bothering it.

Thanks for the suggstions everybody. I appreciate the help.

[Bill Shultz]

Here are the updated pictures. I would imagine that there should be no doubt that this fish in indeed starving.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56016Ruger-starving-1.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56016Ruger-starving-2.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56016Ruger-starving-3.jpg

[Bill Shultz]

Titan*69--

I am working on lowering my nitrates via the use of a remote DSB, and water changes. I'm optimistic that this will soon be under control. My nitrates are out of control IMO also.

I only have about 15 lbs of LR which is another issue that I'd like to improve, but my most immediate concern is bringing this fish back to health if possible.

VolitanLioness--

My pinktail is very shy and easily spooked as well so I completely understand, but 2 months is a little excessive for not eating and I've wanted to take measures to keep the fish alive. I would strongly prefer not to force feed, however the fish is not intersted in food that is "offered" to it.

[Puffer Queen]

Bill,

My first thought would be worm infestation. Worms can live/cohabitate in a fish without showing signs.....then when there is a stressor (new fish, water parameters change, illness, etc), the worms become opportunistic.

The trigger does not look good & chance of recovery is not good. I would try deworming the trigger - praziquantel. I am at work and do not have access to my cheat sheet with doses, but if you do a search - there was a thread "my trigger puked" that I outline the use of praziquantel.

I would also do a tube feeding if you can as I am sure the trigger is dying from starvation. I would do small volumes, frequently (0.5 cc two to three times a day).

Best of luck,
Kelly

[Jeffie]

If you can't find praziquantel- piperazine or pipzine also works good for internal parisites. I believe you can get one of the two at any local Petsmart.

[Bill Shultz]

Just an update,

The trigger is still alive and doing alright. I've been force feeding via a tube occasionally, but the fish is still not eating on it's own.

I'm aggressively working on lowering my nitrates because my leading suspicion is that the high nitrate levels in my tank (80+) were to blame in causing the fish to become ill.

Anyone else have this type of behavior happen to their fish from high nitrate levels?

[Bill Shultz]

Also, I was able to find praziquantel and administered it several times to the QT tank. I did not see much change/benefit either way, and the fish has been moved back to my display tank for the time being.

[beez]

Bill,

Although theres no way to tell for sure, IMO its highly unlikely thats nitrates caused this. Years ago I used to keep a large FOWLR tank with multiple porcupine puffers, 2 triggers and a few other fish and the nitrates were often over 100 ppm with no problems. I actually e-mailed Julian Sprung to ask him if he thought my nitrates were a problem, and he told me that in public aquariums with large fish the nitrates are often hundreds of ppms and the fish do fine. A large water change or 2 would bring the level down quickly if you wanted to give it a shot though...sounds more like an infection to me though...parasitic or bacterial affecting the digestive system. Good luck, hope the trigger pulls thru

[tigerarmy40]

man! thats tough to look at, after seeing how good it looked originally and then seeing it pale and shrunken.....man I hope you save that fish! good luck.

[Bill Shultz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6362719#post6362719 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tigerarmy40
man! thats tough to look at, after seeing how good it looked originally and then seeing it pale and shrunken.....man I hope you save that fish! good luck.

You're telling me. I'm embarassed to post the pics because it looks so bad.

Does anyone have suggestions about what antibiotics I might try?

Has anyone ever beat a situation such as this?

[Jeffie]

Yes, you can beat that. The praziquantel NEEDS to be fed orally to him. If you are tube feeding him anyways, it should be rather easy to do. Praziquantel administered to the water will do nothing for internal parisites. He doesn't look like he needs antibiotics.

[Bill Shultz]

I figured the praziquantel would be absorbed via the gills and get into his blood that level. (thus achieving a blood level to fight an internal infection.)

I like your idea but I have no idea about how to dose praziquantal if administering it orally.

Do you?

[Anthony Calfo]

before hitting this fish with any cocktail of meds that may supress the diet even further... lets focus (briefly) on resuming the diet. Then we will (quickly) address the possible pathology.

Get yourself some B12 and dissolve (crush and mix) a full capsule daily into the QT tank. Also do a small water change each day for the next 5-7 days with slightly warmer (1-2 F) water. 10-20% will be fine. Siphon from the bottom.

Do this for a full week at least... and do try a couple live food items if the prev frozen favs do no work by the third day. I'll even suggest adult brine shrimp that has been gut loaded with Beta Glucan as Kelly has suggested (get Beta Glucan and the GNC store, add a fraction of the capsule to some aerated brine shrimp water... change the water for the bring shrimp to keep it from going sour).

With the daily B-12 and daily water changes I'm hoping the fish will be stilumated to eat in 36-72 hours. We can then shift it as fast as possible to high protein foods (pacifica plankton, minced krill, mysis and any way we can get spirulina into the beast - perhaps by gut loading Palaemonetes "ghost" shrimp and/or brine shrimp).

Do this and write back on the fourth day of treatment or sooner with an update, please.

I don't have a problem at all with force-feeding.... but often it is not needed. Lets see if we can kick start it with B-12 alone.

After resuming diet and some days of good feeding, we can then talk about pathology. Have you seen any evidence to confirm it? Stringy white feces or the like?
(my apologies if it has been addressed... just flying through e-mails today and was directed here)

kindly,

Anth-

[Jeffie]

Yes, are you tube feeding him or just force feeding him with your hand? If you are, add some praziquatel to the food you are going to feed. There is an actual dose that you can use if you have a scale and can weigh the fish for me. Then I can give you an exact dose to use on him.

[Cutiewitbooty]

this thread is about a month old, I wonder if the fish pulled through....?

[Anthony Calfo]

yep... just got a PM from Bill, hence the reply :)

[Swanwillow]

55 gallon with 15 lbs LR....

I'd be careful with the clownfish in QT though, may not want to dose it with the meds.
And don't add the meds to your main tank, could destroy your bacterial filters.

My advice... by a 100 gallon, get it cycling, and add 150 lbs lr to it.
short term, add 50-100 lbs LR to your tank, after you cycle the rock in a big tub.
why? has nothing to do with the fish?-it does. It may be stressed out from 1)big yellow fish (tang) 2)not having places to hide while stressed... therefore, stressing it farther. creating a not-eating form, since it is really stressed out in the first place. It wants to hide, but it can't
THEN it gets swooped into another empty tank (QT) where it can't hide to de-stress...

just IMO

[Bill Shultz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6364748#post6364748 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cutiewitbooty
this thread is about a month old, I wonder if the fish pulled through....?

The fish is still hanging in there, but is certainly not much improved.

[Bill Shultz]

Swanwillow,

I would very much like to add more LR to the tank and upgrade the tank for that matter, but that's unfortunately not an option at the moment (mostly due to financial constraints) but also because my immediate goal is to improve the health of this fish in question.

Buying a new tank, creating a new setup, cycling LR and then adding it to the tank are all things that would take time that this fish may not have. . . But I'd have to agree that a larger tank with more LR would be an improvement to things.


Jeffie,

I am tube feeding (or have been from time to time) the fish using very thin tubing and a small syringe. In the near future I'm going to be posting some pics / descriptions of my methods which I think have worked rather well considering the situation. The forcefeeding seems to be just buying the fish time, but not really solving the problem.

As far as the weight of the fish for the dosing calculation, I'd actually rather prefer not to weigh the fish. I don't have any accurate methods to weigh such a small animal, and I feel like the whole process would be pretty stressful for the fish (although I realize that there are slick ways of weighing the fish without actually setting it on a scale.)

Could you just give me an approximation based on the size you see from the pics and or the formula that you might use? I'm getting ready to formulate a new plan of attack, but at any rate I think it would be very helpful info to have on the thread for others who might someday be in a similar situation.

Thanks to all.

[Swanwillow]

:idea:
I don't have LR in my tank either, don't worry...
I'm just thinking it may feel better and get less stressed if it had hiding places.
sooo, in light of that:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=12124&N=2004+113149

I found mine at a LFS for 16.99
and my seahorses love to hide in it. befoer that, I used it in an oscar tank, and the goldfish could hide in it for a few days before the oscars (8and10 inches, respectively) devoured them... and looks good in a 55, cause thats what my oscars were in. and, it kinda looks life-like... but I'm more worried that your fish is stressed out by not having any hiding spaces. This plant is plastic, so fully sterilizable if need be.

[Bill Shultz]

Swanwillow,

No worries. I appreciate the suggestions. I have only 15 lbs of LR in my tank, but I have at least another 15 lbs of rock, and a huge piece of coral in the tank as well to provide some hiding spaces. I could still benefit from more without a doubt.

[Puffer Queen]

Bill,

No need for antibiotics.

I agree you need to get the praziquantel in the fish. To weigh the fish, buy a cheap food scale (the kind dieter's use to weigh their portions of food) - most have a white bowl that you place your food in to weigh. Simply get some tank water in the bowl (half full), mark the water level and zero the scale. Then add the fish to the bowl of water. While you have him out, I would tube feed him a mixture of B 12 (can't overdose so don't get hung up with the precise dose - I would suggest about 100 - 500 mcg), beta glucan, cyclopeeze and praziquantel. As for the dose of praziquantel, I use Ed Noga's recommendation: 50 mg of praziquantel per kg of body weight ( 23 mg per pound of body weight). Usuaully this one dose is all that is needed. If you need a repeat dose, I would wait at least a week.

I have used the food scale as well as a human baby scale (bought at Toys R Us) for my Larger puffers and sharks and have found it very easy/helpful when treating fish. I weigh almost all of my fish upon arrival before heading to QT. This has helped me estimate accurately the weights of my other fish.

I wish I could estimate the weight of your trigger for you, but I have never kept a trigger.

Best of luck,

Kelly

[Jeffie]

Thanks for posting that info puffer queen. I would follow that plan described by Kelley.

Good luck!

[Titan*69]

Good Luck and keep us updated! If the PT pulls through it would be a huge success!

[Bill Shultz]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. This morning I'm going to be heading out to various pet stores and health food places to assemble my tube feeding med-mix.

Later I plan on also posting a few pics and tips regarding my tube feeding strategy in case others are curious as to how I'm doing this. (I have done searches on the topic and have found very little on the exact procedures people use).

[aquaman67]

Good luck!

[Puffer Queen]

Bill,

Any updates?

Kelly

[Bill Shultz]

Hey Puffer Queen,

Thanks for the continued interest. I'm sorry that it has been a while since my last progress update but I've been working in our Burn ICU lately as part of my 4th year requirements and the hours I'm putting in are less than desirable.

That being said. . . the fish is still hanging in there and seeming to be maintaining his weight although I do not believe that he has turned the corner just yet. I'm continuing with the tube feedings and still have yet to see the fish eat on his own. In addition to doing all of the tricks mentioned by everyone, I'm currently looking into buying a RO/DI filter for my water in an attempt to further improve my water quality. I'm sure there is some element of water quality involved in my problems because I've had trouble keeping my yellow tangs healthy in the past as well.

Thanks for checking in.

[Bill Shultz]

Just wanted to give everyone a [final] update. . .

The trigger didn't make it and expired yesterday. Despite performing almost all of the above-mentioned ideas, the trigger never really resumed normal behavior or eating.

A very informal autopsy revealed a digestive tract that was almost completely filled with crushed coral (which lines the bottom of the tank). I would imagine a fish such as this does consume the occasional rock or coral piece -- and that it would pass harmlessly through the digestive system without consequence. In addition, for a fish that was not eating properly for so long, I would not be surprised to find a piece or two that never migrated fully through the tract. Taking all of this into consideration, I did find a significant amount of CC in the bowel, enough that it may have led to a complete bowel obstruction. There was no CC in the stomach and the rest of the organs seemed within normal limits.

Exactly what all of this means, I'm not totally sure. Why the fish would ever have consumed so much of the CC is beyond me.

Thanks again to all for the help and support.

[Puffer Queen]

Bill,

Sorry for your loss - you certainly went above and beyond for your trigger.

I have done and assisted with necropsies on many predatory fish and have found bowel obstructions caused by crushed coral, urchin spines and plastic pieces from powerheads. I have also heard/seen reports of sea turtle necropsies where they too have had bowel obstructions from ingested "garbage".

Again, sorry for your loss.
Kelly

[jakano]

i just found this thread and it doesnt give me much hope. my bluechin trigger is doing the exact same thing. it stopped eating for some reason and went into hiding. i found him today finally but he was sucked up against the intake of my closed loop so naturally i thought him dead. i reach in with some tongs and grab him only to dicover he is still alive. i put him in my upstream fuge hoping he will pull through but i doubt it.

[Bill Shultz]

Jakano,

Sorry to hear you are having a similar experience. Can you elaborate a little more about what happened and how long you've had the fish for?

Maybe someone watching would be able to offer some assistance.

[jakano]

well i am sad to report that he quickly died after i placed him in the fuge. he didnt seem to act this way until i switched from 20k xm bulbs to 10k ushio bulbs. he was always shy but i think the bright light was to much for him.