Diamonte vs. Starfire - why is it pitting?

[Greg Hiller]

My 400 gallon system is finally really settling in now that I've got all my corals transferred over from my old 110. Trouble is now I'm starting to see 'pitting' on the front glass pane. I've been cleaning with paint scraper. But in testing the paint scraper I cannot see how it is causing pitting. I've cleaned this way for years in my old tank and never saw pitting.

My main front pane is the one that is pitting. It is 3/4 Diamonte low iron. The side panels are 1/2 laminated Starfire (1" total) and do not seem to be pitting like the Diamonte pane. I have Tunze 6200, aimed at the glass, but there is not much sand blowing around, and I cannot imagine that it is getting 'sand blasted'. I have an urchin, but I've never seen an urchin pit glass and I've had this urchin for years. Besides he hardly ever goes on the glass because there is no coraline there.

Any ideas why I'm getting this pitting? I was hoping this tank would last for the next 20 years, but now I'm wondering!!

[JackRent]

Hey Greg -

That is crazy ! I have been pricing out large tanks as of late. No problems with the starphire panels ?? When do we get to see pics of the 400 ?

Jack Rent
Portland, Maine

[Rascal]

Tagging along.

[sabodish]

correct me if im wrong..but im about 99% sure starphire or other low iron glass is softer than regular float glass. i believe the iron is what gives the glass its strength. i know ive heard this somewhere.

[Greg Hiller]

>im about 99% sure starphire or other low iron glass is softer than regular float glass<

I've heard that too, but I've also been told that is an old wife's tale. Still I cannot explain the pitting. Yes, only on the Diamonte panel, not the Starfire panels. Cannot explain it.

[Gudwyn]

The starfire is thinner right? Is it possible that the side panels are tempered but not the front? Mine is all tempered starfire, you should be able to see a little wave in the glass from the roller marks...

err, well I could when it was empty.. just checked and it's impossible to see now. Maybe at night with room lighting on and tank lighting off...

[nreefer]

My whole tank is 3/4" diamante and I swear that it is getting scratched from my magnet cleaner..

[goby1]

How large are the pits, and what shape? How about the spacing between the pits? Is the pitting uniform across the entire panel? Are new pits forming with time, and/or existing ones growing? I'll try to ponder this one for you. G1

[glenndon]

I've been looking into getting a new tank with the low iron glass as well, would like to know the answer too!

Glenn

[Kent E]

do you have urchins?

[nreefer]

I do have one urchin but I actually think it may be gravel getting inbehind my magnetic cleaner.
Mine are more scratches that appear then just pits.

[Kent E]

Hmmm. I have low iron glass from glass cages, I wonder what brand they are using?

[Carl_in_Florida]

[welcome]
glenndon

[Greg Hiller]

G1,

>How large are the pits, and what shape?<

The pits are about 1-2 mm across. Some a bit smaller. They appear to be tear drop shaped. What I mean is that they appear to be half circles, pointing up. Like this U. They almost look like little fragments of glass have been chipped out. I decided to move my urchin to another tank on the off hand (and I think it unlikely) chance that it is causing the problem. I'd post a pic, but the chances of me being able to capture an image the pits with a camera are low I think.

> How about the spacing between the pits?<

They are widely spaced across the front panel. There are more pits in the center of the main panel, and seem to be more numerous toward the bottom half of the panel.

> Are new pits forming with time, and/or existing ones growing?<

I'm pretty sure that new pits are forming, but then again I just might be loosing my mind. If I was sure no new pits were forming then I really would not care since it's not bad yet. I do not believe that the existing pits are growing.

> I'll try to ponder this one for you. G1<

I would greatly appreciate it. I am really worried about the problem. I spent so much in $ and time I really want this tank to last a long time.

[nreefer]

That is exactly what mine look like too. Little U shapped marks. Only on one area. Who made your tank for you?
I have never seen my urchin on the glass before so I am not sure it is from him.

[Greg Hiller]

Nreefer,

How long have you had your tank? Please tell me that this will not get much worse after a little while.

I purchased mine from Aquariums For You in NJ.

[brianemone]

i've had my diamante tank up and running for about 2 months and as of yet i havent seen any scratches or pitting

i am running it bare bottom at the moment so im not sure if the sand will be having an impact in your one.

[nreefer]

I have had my tank up and running since Febuary. I am not sure if there is more pitting going on or I am just being more critical and noticing more marks...

[dsheel1]

Can you post pics?

[CAPT PETE]

Greg,

Have you contacted AFY on this to see what they can do about it?

[nreefer]

They are so small that it would be really hard to. I do some trial shots today though.

[Greg Hiller]

I have spoke to AFY, they are concerned, but don't know what to make of it. I sent them the following photos as well.

http://www.greghiller.com/new%20photos%2011dec05/pit-1.jpg

http://www.greghiller.com/new%20photos%2011dec05/pit-2.jpg

http://www.greghiller.com/new%20photos%2011dec05/pit-3.jpg

http://www.greghiller.com/new%20photos%2011dec05/pit-4.jpg

http://www.greghiller.com/new%20photos%2011dec05/pit-5.jpg

Astraea snail in this one for scale:

http://www.greghiller.com/new%20photos%2011dec05/snail%20with%20pit.jpg

http://www.greghiller.com/new%20photos%2011dec05/pit%20survey%20square.jpg

[CAPT PETE]

Greg,

Keep us posted. I"d like to hear what AFY is going to do about it, if anything.

[massman]

Can you actually feel the indentation on the inside of the glass?
Was there nothing there before?

[john rochon]

I'm wondering if those pits were already there but just showing up now as algea grows in them. I have a scratch that wasn't visible at first until algea started to grow in the crevise. it almost dissappearse when I clean the glass.
I also believe that these ultra clear glasses are softer [scratch easier]. I have tempered STARPHIRE and its the only pane that is scratched.

[Greg Hiller]

The pits actually show up because they catch the light, not because algae is in them.

>Can you actually feel the indentation on the inside of the glass?
Was there nothing there before?<

You cannot feel the indentation with your finger nail, too small, you can however feel it with the point of a razor blade as you run over it.

[nreefer]

Those are what mine look like as well.

[Large Polyp Dave]

nreefer who made your tank?

[nreefer]

Aquarium Obsessed

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6280048#post6280048 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nreefer
Aquarium Obsessed

Will is building a 96x48x30 (600gal) for me... It should be here on Friday... Am I going to have these pits as well ??

[JazzMan]

Wasn't aquarium obsessed barred from this site?

[nreefer]

I don't know, the tank construction is top notch and I am very happy with everything Will did for me. I am not sure if this is a Diamante problem or if the glass is just softer than what I am used to so it scratches easier. Either way I take extra care when cleaning the glass now.

[bond007069]

After reading this thread, i checked out my 120 All Glass Aquarium 48x24x24 and noticed 2 small marks simillar to the pics.

Tank was purchases in May 2005. I have no sand in the tank.

I tried to feel the mark from the inside and outside, but it just felt smooth.

Any word on what it is?

[goby1]

I have some ideas, but nothing conclusive. If there was a preexisting defect in the glass surface, such as small inclusions/voids from the manufacturing process, these defects would serve to raise the local stress in the glass. The urchin/ scraping might be enough to chip the glass like that, as it passed over the preexisting defect. Otherwise, the bow in the tank could do it. What leads me to suspect a manufacturing defect is that the chips are all aligned in the same way. You could have introduced the defects by scratching the glass with the scraper to begin with.

To clarify, brittle ceramic materials, like this glass, fail mechanically in a catastrophic manner. Cracks have no ability to blunt their tips like they do in metals, so once they get to a critical size, they propagate at the speed of sound in the material. Cracks form where the stress overcomes a critical stress of the material, which in glass happens at defects (there's always defects). So fracture in ceramics is statistical... what is the chance that there is a defect in the highest stress region? In fact, thicker ceramics in tensile structural situations will often fail under less load than thinner specimens. This is because with more volume, there are more defects. If you tested many ceramic samples, you'd find a large spread in the loads under which they failed. With metals, there is a much smaller window in which they always fail. Metals can plastically deform (yield) to lower stesses at crack tips. Defect free, a sheet of glass is much stronger than acrylic. Glass and other ceramics are terrible engineering materials for tensile situations, as defects are very unpredictable.

To this end, if this low iron glass is softer than other types, it is less likely to chip.

Again, are there any differences in the distribution of the chips across the panel? We should really be calling these things chips, not pits. Assuming the panel is not tempered, then the inside is under compression and the outside under tension. Tempering introduces a compressive stress on the outside thickness of the panel, so some deflection is required to reach a tensile situation, and in essence the panel is stronger. Chips like that on the outside would have me much more worried, as tensile stresses tend to widen/open cracks, where compressive stresses tend to close them.

It's really important to know if any new chips are forming, and if they are, if there is any correlation with scraping the algae off. If you get any new information, let us know...

G1

[Greg Hiller]

Goby1,

>If there was a preexisting defect in the glass surface, such as small inclusions/voids from the manufacturing process, these defects would serve to raise the local stress in the glass.<

I spoke to an aquarium manufacturer, not the maker of this tank. He said that when glass is made there is an 'air' side and a ? (cannot remember what he called the other) side. When you build a tank you are supposed to put the 'air' side inside the tank so that it is exposed to water. This is because the 'air' side is less likely to have defects. When the defects contact the salt water over time, the pits or chips form. My tank probably has the air side on the outside of the tank. The good news is that he made it sound like most of this would occur in a span of a few months, so with any luck the chipping is done on my tank. One thing he was a bit surprised about was that the chips did not seem to occur in a pattern. He said that usually a pattern would be visable, like wherever the glass sat on rollers, or something. After speaking with him I went back and looked at the tank, and there does seems to be a bit of a pattern to it. Unfortunately for me, the largest band is right down the centerpoint of the tank.

I will continue to monitor the chips.....I sure hope they don't get worse. :mad2:

[Ocean Image]

Greg,

The other side is called the tin side. Glass floats on a bed of molten Tin as it is made into sheets. The aquarium manufacturer you spoke with is correct. The air side should always be in. Shame because it's not as smooth as the tin side...algae can more easily stick IMO.
If you have access to a short wave UV lamp you can determine the tin side of the glass. The tin side will have a fluorescence under the lamp. (Follow UV safety precautions). This is due to the tin oxide residue from the manufacturing process of the glass.

[bond007069]

Could they be from tiny snail shells projectiled at the glass from the return pump?

[Kent E]

When I assembled my tank I had no idea there was a tin and air side of glass. What are the raminfications if I chose poorly?

[SAT]

I have the same sort of pitting on my "low iron" glass (brand unknown). I can't tell if you it was there to begin with or showed up later.

[Flatlander]

I just purchased a new 180 cube style tank. I have a starfire front.

First, {if I may Greg}, :) , does starfire still have some green tinge when looking down the end or is it absolutely clear. Mine still has some green, albeit lighter than the side panels?

Now talk about pitting and scratching. As it was still dirty from the build, we wet it down and wiped it with a soft cloth. Something I have always done. The sides and back are fine but the starfire has many scratches now. "LOVELY".:(

Most seem to be on the outside. Is there a polish to help with them? Or am I crap out of luck.

[Ocean Image]

Flatlander, Starphire does still have some green tinge to it. I guess that's why they call it low-iron, instead of no-iron. Once you butt it up to a piece of regular glass (after tank construction) it looks even more green, but I can assure you that Starphire is much much clearer than regular glass.
The only way I know of to get scratches out of glass is by using a professional scratch removal kit...about $500+. Even this leaves a slight wave, but not as noticable like a scratch. Check your local yellow pages, maybe you'll get lucky. Don't bother with windshield repair guys.

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

"To this end, if this low iron glass is softer than other types, it is less likely to chip" - Goby1

Im not a materials engineer, but from the materials courses I took, I seem to remember Iron was added to glass not for strength so much as workabililty. It doesnt add amy material strength to the interstitial structure of the silica, but it prevents boundry cracks from spreading all over the glass when you cut it/grind it/polish it.

As for strength, we need to distinguish between tensile strength and hardness...as with glass the two seem to be mutually exclusive. I was under the impression that glass without/low in Iron would be stronger in hardness, but more brittle.

Or is it the other way around. I get confused sometimes with Glass rules since they are opposite from metals.

[yoboyjdizz]

i was thinking of getting a starfire glass tank but now should i be worried about scratches as in an acrylic tank?

[Flatlander]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6337176#post6337176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ocean Image
Flatlander, Starphire does still have some green tinge to it. I guess that's why they call it low-iron, instead of no-iron. Once you butt it up to a piece of regular glass (after tank construction) it looks even more green, but I can assure you that Starphire is much much clearer than regular glass.
The only way I know of to get scratches out of glass is by using a professional scratch removal kit...about $500+. Even this leaves a slight wave, but not as noticable like a scratch. Check your local yellow pages, maybe you'll get lucky. Don't bother with windshield repair guys.

Thanks. Guess I,m up the creek without a paddle then. :mad:

[SAT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6338443#post6338443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by yoboyjdizz
i was thinking of getting a starfire glass tank but now should i be worried about scratches as in an acrylic tank?
The pits in mine are really tiny. You practically need a magnifying glass to see them. This glass does not scratch the way acrylic does.

[john rochon]

hmmm how would a tank builder know which side is the ''air'' side? should he/she be schooled in this process. this is the first time I've ever heard of this and /or the possible defects. I built my own 500g and can attest to the easibility of scratching STARPHIRE. and mine is tempered.

[Willistein]

Wouldn't the inside of a pane of glass in a full tank be (generally speaking) in a state of compression because of the bow? Or are the surfaces "tighter" than the inner volume of the glass leading to tension on both sides? Structurally speaking the loads seen in typical large tanks on the glass are low. I would think that we're really more interested in small, localized effects of inclusions on the inner surface. I would also think that the hardness and toughness would be large factors.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6313725#post6313725 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goby1
I have some ideas, but nothing conclusive. If there was a preexisting defect in the glass surface, such as small inclusions/voids from the manufacturing process, these defects would serve to raise the local stress in the glass. The urchin/ scraping might be enough to chip the glass like that, as it passed over the preexisting defect. Otherwise, the bow in the tank could do it. What leads me to suspect a manufacturing defect is that the chips are all aligned in the same way. You could have introduced the defects by scratching the glass with the scraper to begin with.

To clarify, brittle ceramic materials, like this glass, fail mechanically in a catastrophic manner. Cracks have no ability to blunt their tips like they do in metals, so once they get to a critical size, they propagate at the speed of sound in the material. Cracks form where the stress overcomes a critical stress of the material, which in glass happens at defects (there's always defects). So fracture in ceramics is statistical... what is the chance that there is a defect in the highest stress region? In fact, thicker ceramics in tensile structural situations will often fail under less load than thinner specimens. This is because with more volume, there are more defects. If you tested many ceramic samples, you'd find a large spread in the loads under which they failed. With metals, there is a much smaller window in which they always fail. Metals can plastically deform (yield) to lower stesses at crack tips. Defect free, a sheet of glass is much stronger than acrylic. Glass and other ceramics are terrible engineering materials for tensile situations, as defects are very unpredictable.

To this end, if this low iron glass is softer than other types, it is less likely to chip.

Again, are there any differences in the distribution of the chips across the panel? We should really be calling these things chips, not pits. Assuming the panel is not tempered, then the inside is under compression and the outside under tension. Tempering introduces a compressive stress on the outside thickness of the panel, so some deflection is required to reach a tensile situation, and in essence the panel is stronger. Chips like that on the outside would have me much more worried, as tensile stresses tend to widen/open cracks, where compressive stresses tend to close them.

It's really important to know if any new chips are forming, and if they are, if there is any correlation with scraping the algae off. If you get any new information, let us know...

G1

[Rascal]

John Rochon,

Can you elaborate a little on your comment "easibility of scratching STARPHIRE".

[Flatlander]

Not sure what Johns answer is going to be but mine is dont clean it like your normal glass. :(

Now what?

Will my urchins scratch it more?

What the heck do you guys clean it with? I,m scared to even go near it now.

[goby1]

I'm not sure the advantages that iron adds to some glasses, esp. in terms of the mechanical properties. All else being equal, a harder ceramic will be more brittle.

Right, the inside is under compression if the glass is not tempered. The way that these brittle materials are used structurally is to limit the deflection through making them thicker.

In general, amorphous materials are harder to characterize than their crystalline counterparts. Certainly the inclusions would be crystalline... In my opinion, the cause of this chipping can't be determined from the information so far. Possible someone could do a controlled test in a low stress region of the panel (but one with some existing chips) to see if they can induce more to form. That would clear up some possibilities... I'll keep thinking about this....
G1

[Greg Hiller]

FWIW, I've been monitoring the same small square that I drew on the front of the tank with a magic marker. The good news is that there do not appear to be any new scratches forming at least in the small sample area I've been monitoring.

[spazz]

wow this make me love my acrylic tank even more now. at least i can remove any scratches in my tank with micro mesh. once glass is pitted your done. you will never be able to sand out the pits in it. acrylic can be buffed out to the point its like new. yes acrylic can scratch easy but it can be repaired easy too.

[john rochon]

my niece took my magnet and went up the glass. it had a small small snail shell [those tiny curly ones] under the pad. 4 inch scrath right up the center:( . the rest of the tank is regular float glass and is very hard to scratch. I have to be carefull with the front sheet [tempered starphire].

[jjackson]

hide the MAGNET.....

[FishyBiz]

People love to move magnets. My tank is in my office so I have to put the DO NOT TOUCH on it. Now if I could just get them to read it. lol
Its funny but I feel its disrespectful to move another mans magnet.

[tony13]

Greg, Sorry a little off topic but I'm getting my tank from AFY next week. It will be on plywood, 2x4 stand. Did you put yours on any foam? They haven't told me about doing this but all the treads I've been reading has me wondering.Thanks,
Tony

[goby1]

Hiller, that's good news. Is the orientation on the chips still vertical? You're still scraping the test region, right?
Scraping in random directions or with some preferred direction/pattern?

Sure acrylic can be repolished, but the time and effort in going through all of the grits for a whole tank seems daunting. I have an acrylic tank though. So much tougher/durable, catastropy-wise that is.

G1

[Greg Hiller]

> I'm getting my tank from AFY next week. It will be on plywood, 2x4 stand. Did you put yours on any foam? <

I purchased mine with a steel stand. The steel had a top of plywood which was topped with a type of soft papery like stuff (forget what this is called). They had actually constructed the tank on this material, so it was partially glued to the base, but peeled off easily enough.

>Hiller, that's good news. Is the orientation on the chips still vertical? You're still scraping the test region, right?
Scraping in random directions or with some preferred direction/pattern? <

The orientation as in the photos was more horizontal. I have been scraping the test region. All looks good for me. Kind of wish they'd put the correct side in the tank, but I can live with the minor pits that are there.

[akuariya]

Greg, I just ran across your post and was wondering if you followed up with the manufacture?... Any luck?

Sue

[mobert]

Hi folks,
I'm wondering if those of you with pits in your tanks got any more pitting or if the pitting has advanced or changed any. I just noticed pits in my 210 AGA and am concerned about possible failure.

[Kent E]

I don't have starfire but some other brand. I noticed that the white glass is softer. I too had the spiral feather dusters in the cleaning magnet make tiny scratches. The good thing is that they are so small they aren't noticable but I will be cleaning the magnet every few weeks.

Overall, If I had to do it again I would have gone with green glass. I don't see the BIG difference and I would like harder glass.

[spazz]

in my opinion after talking to a friend that works at one of the largest glass companys in the world, i would have the starfire glass tempered after cutting and drilling. it will make it alot stronger and less likelyto scratch or pit. there is 2 stages of tempering. 1st stage is called hardened glass and the 2nd stage is tempered glass. the seconed stage is basiclly tempered alot longer to make the glass alot harder. the down fall to this is you can drill it once its been hardened or tempered. so the holes haveto be drilled in the tank first and them tempered or hardened.
also there is many types of glass out there. starfire is just a brand name of low iron glass. there are many brands just like it. maybe a different brand that is cheaper and then tempered would costthe same as starfire. you would have to check with your local glass cutters to find out. JMO

[hahnmeister]

There are many types, but there are only about 9 plate glass makers in the world if I remember correctly, and Starphire is just Oldcastle's brand name (I think thats the right one). You have to start searching far and wide usually when you start looking at different brands.

Add to that the few people out there that will drill it, work it, and then go through the tempering process... your options start to get fewer. There is only one place in the entire US that I know of that will even bend Starphire glass...

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130227#post8130227 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
There are many types, but there are only about 9 plate glass makers in the world if I remember correctly, and Starphire is just Oldcastle's brand name (I think thats the right one). You have to start searching far and wide usually when you start looking at different brands.

Add to that the few people out there that will drill it, work it, and then go through the tempering process... your options start to get fewer. There is only one place in the entire US that I know of that will even bend Starphire glass...

i think that is where my frined works. they can bend glass, laminate it, router holes and eurobraced tops along with temperting and case hardening of glass. they are the same company that has the job for just about every sky scraper in the usa along with the new world trade center building glass. i took a tour of the plant with him one day. it was wild to see them handeling that much glass an hour. semi loads a day.

[Waxxiemann]

http://www.miraclesaquariums.com/custom.html

I think these guys will drill, machine and then temper starfire glass. They're in Canada.

I know for sure that they will machine/drill and THEN temper regular glass so I imaging that the process is the same for starfire.

I got a quote on a 225 from them and I have all the details but I can't remember if they temper the starfire or not. I have the e-mail @ work. I'm pretty sure that all panes were tempered including the 3 starfire sides.

[mobert]

but why is my All-Glass Aquarium made of regular plate glass chipping? Plus, will it get worse and is it going to blow out one day????

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8132623#post8132623 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
i think that is where my frined works. they can bend glass, laminate it, router holes and eurobraced tops along with temperting and case hardening of glass. they are the same company that has the job for just about every sky scraper in the usa along with the new world trade center building glass. i took a tour of the plant with him one day. it was wild to see them handeling that much glass an hour. semi loads a day.

The place I know of is in Cali. I can find places that bend glass, and places that have starphire, but not a place that will bend starphire... thats harder because they have to heat up the starphire much hotter than normal glass to bend it, and its very hard to handle at these temps since the lowered iron content. Im all ears and would love to know of a closer place that will bend starphire (and maybe temper it as well), so let me know if they do... but finding a place that is bending regular plate is one thing... and asking those same places to do it with starphire might get you some 'looks' ("whaddya think we are here, magicians?).

[spazz]

i know this company can do it but its not cheap either. i seen a bowed piece of starfire that was laminated (2 layers) and tempered sitting there on the floor for an aquarium. it got shipped over seas. this company can make just about anything out of glass.

[massman]

Dealing with tempered glass has its own drawbacks.
It is extremely weak along the edges, if tap the edges, the glass can explode, you DO NOT want this in your home. There is no cracking with the glass, it justs explodes at once. I would much rather deal with scratches.

Likewise laminated panels can delaminate, and that is really ugly, imagine the cheap bobbly tint jobs you see on older cars.

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8133602#post8133602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
but why is my All-Glass Aquarium made of regular plate glass chipping? Plus, will it get worse and is it going to blow out one day????

if your tank is chipping then it should be a warantee issue you should talk to the manufacture about. it shouldnt be chipping. it could fail in time. or it could last forever. its hard to say. and aot depends on where the chi is and if its tempered glass or soft high iron glass. i dont think they use low iron glass in all glass brand aquariums. but im not for sure there either.

[mobert]

Thanks for the input spazz.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8134544#post8134544 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by massman
... I would much rather deal with scratches.


Tempered glass doesnt really resist scratches any better than regular float/plate glass FWIW. Its the same material hardness really... the tempered glass just has a higher strength so you can use a thinner piece. Glass of all types should have a hardness of 450 on the Knoop scale. In fact, tempered panels can indeed lead to more scratches: During the handling of the glass at additional heat treatments, it is heated up enough to get surface imperfections, and without that nice tin surface to sit on, the glass can keep these imperfections that you cant see, but can feel. These imperfections lead to scratches when you use a metal algae scraper, and you can end up with problems that you otherwise wouldnt if the glass were normal plate.

[Tigger240]

wow im glad i read this - i was ready to spring for a starfire panel at twice the price of low iron!

[massman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8136723#post8136723 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tigger240
wow im glad i read this - i was ready to spring for a starfire panel at twice the price of low iron!

Starfire is low iron:confused:

[Tigger240]

eerr - i meant reg iron.

- i was going to buy a starfire panel at twice the cost of a reg iron panel. -

when i opened this thread just now the pics on the front page finally loaded, and those pits are quite large imo, stuff like that bothers me to no end. im sorry for your troubles with your starfire tank, it must be depressing.

[mobert]

by the way, my AGA is regular glass.

[The McReefersons]

Hey Greg,

Whatever came of this? I don't remember noticing any chips when I saw your tank, but then, I was not looking for them either. Overall, would you say the Starfire was the right choice for you (barring the chipping issue)?

-Dave

[hahnmeister]

If installed properly, Starphire wont chip.

[DitchPlains2]

So here's my question, given the possibility of getting a crappy piece of starphire glass that will chip or degrade over time, versus the weight and clairty and the easiness to scartch of acrylic, which company ie: manufacturer of aqauriums is using the better method or quality material, that would make it worthwhile to use this clearer glass rather then opting for acrylic. I have only owned 1 acrylic tank, and it scratched to all hell regradless of what i used or did, the one glass tank I had was very strong and clear imo... any suggestions guys/gals

cheers
David

[hahnmeister]

Hay DitchPlains2, thats my avatar from when I was Herbert T. Kornfeld... good avatar...lol.

Glass Cages, Miracles, and Aquarium Obsessed are all aware of this orientation need. Thats about the only important thing to note about low-iron glass (besides its slightly different strength). To build my tank from Starphire, I just used a 4w shortwave UV lamp (makes the tin-side glow like a ghost) to get the facing right. Piece of cake.

[Shaun120]

Just finished this tread and read it from beginning to end.

I want to start out with the acrylic vs. glass debate, I don't really care as long as it doesn't leak! Both materials have their merits. I'm sure most will agree with that ;)

IMO any kind of glass is superior to acrylic in regards to resistance to scratching. If chips are apparent in your glass tank then it seems it is a manufacturing or material defect and the tank manufacturer should replace the tank (hopefully).

Acrylic, though more transparent, easier to move drill and work with generally, you always have to worry about scratching. Most acrylic tanks I have first hand experience after time develop more scratches (this is not a statement of science or law I know of).

I have always had scratches at some point made to my glass aquariums (darn substrate) but they have always been barely noticeable. I have seen a 'Starfire' tank side by side with another glass tank and the difference was staggering. The ‘Starfire’ tank looked like acrylic. That is why I bought a 225 with Starfire.

I am going to do what I have always done when cleaning my glass tanks...use a cleaner pad or magnet for acrylic. It takes a little more elbow grease but I yet have caused me problems.

Another thing I will add is I did have an Oceanic tank that was a cheaper version of their regular tanks called oceans view or something like that (appeared after AGA bought them). That tank scratched like crazy...they no longer make that version anymore, wonder why? This leads me to think that there are probably different quality levels of low lead glass out there, so some may scratch easier than regular glass or other low lead glass brands. A blanket statement about any type of glass or for that matter acrylic may not apply to all of the type of material you may be investigating.

This all is based from my perception…which is naturally my reality, fact or not.