Documented feeding of cleaner shrimp larvae.

[The Cardinal]

Hi

I have been trying to raise Lysmata Amboinensis for a couple of months now. I am well aware that most people consider this to be impossible and yes I have searched this site and the Internet for useful information for some time. I currently have a few shrimps that have survived for 7 weeks.

I would primarily like to know how long you have been able to raise these shrimps and what kinds of food you used in the different stages. I would also like to share my observations with the different foodsources.

Artemia:

I have noticed that they will take live baby artemia from day 1. After about ten days however they do not seem as willing/able to take this food, at least not as frequently (or it might be that it is more difficult to observe the feeding as they grow). They seem to need some kind of larger or substitute foodsource at this point. Jamie Craggs claims he has raised these shrimp solely on non enriched artemia though http://www.reefsuk.org/articles/captivebreeding/breedcleanershrimp.php

Mysid/Cleaner shrimp larvae:

I can confirm that they do eat mysid larvae that I caught upon their release on day 9. This food source lasted to day 15. The older cleaners do not, however, seem to eat cleaner shrimp larvae from later batches. Atleast no observations have been made up to this point.

Frozen Artemia/Cyclopeeze/Mysid/Flake:

I have tried giving them the frozen food above at different stages and they do seem to grab the foodsource initially but I am unsure if they eat from it or if they only inspect the food this way. This also happened when trying to give them crushed flake. There is an initial interest but after that they show no sign of grabbing/eating it.

I currently give them a mix of vitamin enriched live brine shrimp, frozen food and flakes. Although I cannot observe any feeding with any of these food sources at this stage they are surviving on something or they are starving very slowly. I will try and catch more mysid as this is the only foodsource I have seen them take after the artemia.

I have also seen that Rsman on this forum has succeeded with breeding this species, although I cannot find any information on how he did it. I have sent a message to him and hope that he will respond. Anyone knows how he succeeded?

I would be very thankful if people who have tried breeding this species can give documented information on the foodsources being accepted and at what stages these were accepted.

Thank you!

Peter

[m.rogers]

Peter hat off to you but

I have know ansers to what you have asked. I would like to ask you what is the longes you have had them live.

thanls
mike

[The Cardinal]

7 weeks and counting :)

[David M]

Very impressive, congratulations. Rsman is on break and may not respond. You might try contacting Todd Gardner at Atlantis Aquarium, he might have info for you. I know he has raised L wurdmani, I've seen them :D

[jwreffner]

While I don't have any direct info on your questions, I have read the book, Breeding the Orchid Dottyback by Martin Moe Jr. He indicated throught the book that he had some cleaner shrimps that were spawinging throughtout the course of his dottyback spawing. You might want to check it out. He was unsuccessful in raising the shrimp out of larval stage, but at least it would tell you what not to do.

J

[Luis A M]

My record larval surviving is 120 days.A couple of people here could raise them.IME large larvae take pieces of shrimp,but not frozen Cyclopeeze.They feed well on bbs all the time,so there´s no need to wean them from it.

[The Cardinal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6266979#post6266979 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
My record larval surviving is 120 days.A couple of people here could raise them.IME large larvae take pieces of shrimp,but not frozen Cyclopeeze.They feed well on bbs all the time,so there´s no need to wean them from it.

Thanks for the tips guys. 120 days is impressive, do you know why they finally died? Had they cleared all the stages after 120 days? I will definately continue to feed them bbs, I guess it is just difficult to actually observe them eating them when they grow bigger. It also looks like they have a hard time grabbing them when they grow. This was not the case with the mysid.

Please define "large larvae", when did they start to take the shrimp? Maybe a dumb question but were these shrimps raw or had they been cooked and then frozen?

Thanks again!

[Luis A M]

125 days actually.Last larval stage ,Z11.I started to give small pieces of cooked peeled shrimp after Z4.They typically die at molt time,in apparent good health.

[marinebetta]

You may want to go through this thread (http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=37318&st=0) . My bud managed to get a few through to settling around 60+ days....

[The Cardinal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6268413#post6268413 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marinebetta
You may want to go through this thread (http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=37318&st=0) . My bud managed to get a few through to settling around 60+ days....

Interesting link although he did not manage to settle them. Can you please ask your friend what he was feeding/how his setup looked like. Did he figure out what it was that made them settle?

Thanks, much appreciated

[jnowell]

I have a freind at the Texas A&M Marine Biology lab, and he told me that a healthy dose of "Purple Up" had shown to cause some to settle out successfully. Not sure why a Corraline Algae enhancer would cause this, but he's never steered me wrong before. I don't have any personal experience, my cleaners and peppermints spawn frequently, but I haven't tried raising either yet. When I'm more successful with my Clarkii's, I'll give it a go.

[marinebetta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6270233#post6270233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr Mussle
Interesting link although he did not manage to settle them. Can you please ask your friend what he was feeding/how his setup looked like. Did he figure out what it was that made them settle?

Thanks, much appreciated
Ah...sorry, got debelius mixed up with amboinensis!:p yeah......he's still trying with the amboinensis!

[Luis A M]

Chieh,I am impressed of the good level of this Singapore Reef Club forum.I see people from Oz and Germany chime in.
You use a different avatar there,what are those funny ocellaris?

[The Cardinal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6270632#post6270632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnowell
I have a freind at the Texas A&M Marine Biology lab, and he told me that a healthy dose of "Purple Up" had shown to cause some to settle out successfully.

Hmm thats interesting. Haven´t heard about "purple up" here in Sweden but I will have a look for it. I will also try and scrape som corraline and add to the mix. It might be that they eat corraline to get extra calcium for the settling or something like that, you never know ;).

Thank you!

[Luis A M]

I think we are overestimating the settling clue thing. :D
With Lysmata and Stenopus,the problem seems to be keeping them alive up to the last larval stage.Then -and only then-settlement (or lack of it)comes to question.

[marinebetta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6274035#post6274035 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
Chieh,I am impressed of the good level of this Singapore Reef Club forum.I see people from Oz and Germany chime in.
You use a different avatar there,what are those funny ocellaris?
Luis,

Thanks for the complement on behalf of SRC:) That pic is a bad pic of the first 4 true percs that I raised......

[The Cardinal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6275999#post6275999 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
I think we are overestimating the settling clue thing. :D
With Lysmata and Stenopus,the problem seems to be keeping them alive up to the last larval stage.Then -and only then-settlement (or lack of it)comes to question.

I agree, but I have seen some pretty strange settling cues over the years :). There are people who have managed to keep them alive up to the last larval stage, and keeping them in this stage for quite some time, so I think it is a matter of finding the right que, however weird it might seem.

[FuEl]

Hi guys, I'm just a reefer who has been working on L. amboinensis for my studies. With regards to L. amboinensis I can only say they are much much harder to culture compared to L. debelius. I got L. debelius to settle even though I neglected them rather badly during their first 2 weeks of life. They did'nt seem to need any settlement cue and apparently they seem to be more voracious feeders compared to L. amboinensis.


I have done some preliminary work on early nutrition for L. amboinensis. Comparing the results with another study performed by another student before me seems to indicate that zoea I larvae of L. amboinensis rely and benefit more on Tetraselmis chuii than L. debelius. Tetraselmis chuii concentrations should be maintained around 50000 cells per mL. Rotifers don't appear to be neccessary and Artemia nauplii will be readily consumed (maintain around 3-5 artemia nauplii per mL).

L. debelius does not seem to need any settlement cue. For L. amboinensis I have tried the following settlement cues: Fish, coralline liverock, adults, settlement substrate. None worked. I have read up on coralline (GABA) and this settlement cue seems to apply only to sedentary organisms like corals, etc. For crustaceans which retain their mobility after settlement I doubt coralline derivatives will aid settlement.

The interesting thing about L. amboinensis larvae is that they can easily reach 5-10X the mass of L. debelius larvae. Even though they appear to be ready to settle, they tend to die off once they reach 1cm and above in total length. From the growth I have observed in an upwelling system (Zoea VII reached around 17 days), the possibility of them settling at 42 days (According to Waikiki aquarium) does not seem to be impossible. The larvae easily reach close to 1cm by 42 days and any larval duration exceeding that is probably due to mark-time molting attributed by delayed metamorphosis. Delayed metamorphosis either results in spontaneous settlement or mass mortality. Mass mortality for L. amboinensis larvae is not surprising as the large larvae might incur some detrimental metabolic costs by delaying metamorphosis.

As for how long larvae can survive, it depends on how fast they develop. Scientific reported larval durations range from 58-140 days for L. amboinensis. Such a large range is probably caused by many factors like larval quality, larval nutrition, zoea I starvation, etc etc. Larvae raised in rectangular tanks/beakers will develop much slower than those raised in upwelling and hence they can have much much longer larval lifespans. For instance I have raised a handful of L. amboinensis larvae in small beakers solely on newly hatched Artemia nauplii up to 50-63 days. However, none developed past zoea VII. Zoea VII is normally reached below 20 days so you can imagine how long they can delay development. As such, it is impossible to raise these larvae to settlement on Artemia nauplii alone. Best to supplement their diets with other foods (finely chopped prawns, squid, mussels and even crab eggs) or even on-grown enriched Artemia (I used all this for L. debelius and amboinensis). I might try chopped polychaetes next time.

As whether settlement is due to nutrition or settlement cue, the answer might be to dump a batch of laboratory-raised late-stage larvae into floating sea cages to see if settlement occurs.

Just my 2 cents~:D

[spawner]

There is only one species of Lysmata that should require a settlement cue, it’s a peppermint shrimp and the it has not been proven as of yet. The notion that they would require a cue has come for people that are not equipped to determine if their larvae are competent to settle. Competency in Lysmata is determined by the full development of the pleopods, they must have fully formed pleopods with an appendix interna present before you can consider them competent. Other features are good clues to larval development, but as yet I can not find a structure that gives 100% confirmation that the larvae are competent.

1cm Lysmata amboinensis is not any where near ready to settle. Your larvae have to be fully developed and I have never seen any Lysmata amboinensis or L. grabhami near settlement, morphologically, that were less than 2cm (2.45cm is normal) in total length. You could speculate that larvae can grow a bit larger in the last larval stages then is totally necessary to metamorphosis, but growth between zoea stages is not something I would agree with (i.e. a zoea 8 being larger than a zoea 9).

Your assumptions as to why settlement does not occur by 43 days is incorrect, many larvae have not reached zoea 10 by this date, days are temperature dependant, thus lower temperatures will have a slower developmental time than higher temperatures and a longer larval duration. This is major problem with using days for rearing time. The problems with L. amb is that they increase their volume (biomass) in a huge way in relation to their total length in later stages, thus requiring a ton of energy to have grown enough during the intermolt period to achieve the next zoeal stage, there a few zoeal stages that have several multiple instars (5 or more, mark-time molting) this is normally at the points of rapid size increases (measured by biomass). These multiple instars (mark-time molting) in the mid zoeal stages are where the vast majority of developmental delays occur. Once larvae are at competence they will readily settle, with some delay up to 3-6 extra molts.

Questions as to why fire shrimp are smaller larvae, can be addressed by the phylogenetic position of the shrimp. Fire shrimp are the first branch out from the peppermint shrimps, thus they are closer related and have a similar sized larvae. L. amb/grabhami was formed later than fire shrimp and must have had some evolutionary pressure to settle at a large size and thus over time the larvae have become larger.

To address the prey capture issues, the reason you don’t see the larvae eating Artemia nauplii is primarily due to the rapid growth of the larvae, in conjunction with the faster handling time as they age. It can take over 10 minutes for a larvae to consume a nauplii in the first few stages and decreases to less than a minute after zoea 6. Consumption does not generally increase in conjunction with deceased time required to handle the prey. This is a results of the larvae developing more efficient digestive enzymes at around zoea 4-6.

[jnowell]

On the Purple Up thing, I don't think he was inferring that the babies needed coraline algae to graze on, more like something in the mixture of Purple Up acted as a settlement trigger. It was just a chance thing they noticed, now if someone knew the formula, maybe they could decifer which ingredient caused it. Who knows, I'm still an amateur at best.

Jason

[The Cardinal]

Great inputs Spawner and FuEL!

Is there any site/book with illustrations on the different zoea(s) for this species?


Andy:

What is the presumed settlement cue for the peppermint shrimp?

What would you say the ideal temperature would be for optimum larval development?

How do the larvae "increase their volume (biomass) in a huge way in relation to their total length in later stages"? I would assume that food density in these stages would not be difficult to simulate in an artificial setup, but still the increase in mass is absent. Do you think they switch foodsource in late zoea in order to obtain enough energy for this increase in the wild?

Really appreciate this discussion.

[The Cardinal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6277904#post6277904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnowell
On the Purple Up thing, I don't think he was inferring that the babies needed coraline algae to graze on, more like something in the mixture of Purple Up acted as a settlement trigger.
Jason

Yes I understood what he meant, I was just brainstorming and thought it might be a chance that it was connected to coralline in some way:) I will try to get hold of the mixture as well.

[FuEl]

Thanks spawner for sharing such scarce information.

I have read up some in one published journal (Redescription of larval stages of L. seticaudata; Journal of Plankton research) and it does indicate that the last zoeal stage of L. amboinensis exceeds 2 cm. However the question mark placed next to that value gave me doubts on the credibility of such a value. I had some larvae hitting slightly above 1 cm in upwelling systems by days 45-50. They did survive all the way to 80-100 days however I did not notice any further visible increase in size (at least in terms of total length). Quality of food provided did'nt appear to be a problem to me, they had enriched adult Artemia in the culture vessel at all times and even foods like crab eggs and crushed amphipods.

Judging zoeal stages beyond Zoea VII is a problem for me, as literature is scarce on this classification and many authors often avoid it due to complex pleopod development. I will check up on the appendix interna issue.

Thanks for the phylogenetic information! The size difference of larvae does make alot of sense now. :)

[spawner]

You'll find plenty of more published information on Lysmata larval devleopment and the such shortly.

I am in the process of writing up a large series of papers for RK on the genus. I have been waiting for a few publications to be accpted by journals before writing up hobby level reports.

[Luis A M]

Welcome to shrimpers Peter and FuEl to this forum! :wavehand
You both have sure some useful experiences to share!:cool:
FuEl,are you from Singapore and moved to Oz?
Andy,great you joined us here too!
Wow,this thread is warming up!:p

Some comments on issues discussed here:

Well kept L.amb.at 27º molt every 3 days.Mine reach Z7 at 18 days.It means that up to this stage they didn´t "mark time",every molt brought a new stage.

The "must have"reference for those interested in L.amb.larval development is Mark Wunsch thesis paper of 1996.It has detailed anatomical drawings of Z1 to Z7 and of more advanced zoea he couldn´t stage for lack of enough material.

Staging is clear and easy up to Z7.After that changes are gradual and stages are more difficult to define.Pleopods grow and become covered with setae and the flagellum of A2 (antenna)grows until it matches those of A1.

That 42 days time of Waikiki could perhaps be wrong.K.Brittain who actually worked with them told me that S.Kraul could be confused there,larval length was longer than that.

Regarding nutrition,I have tried different things and combinations and have yet to find something better than bbs.It is true and easy to see though,that young zoea filter feed on phytoplankton.

[FuEl]

Keep up the good work spawner! Would love to see more literature available regarding L. amboinensis. Current information is so limited. :(

Yes Luis, I'm residing in Singapore but just doing some postgrad studies in Oz. I also noticed that up to Z7 each larval stage lasted between 2.5-3 days (at 27-28 degrees celcius). Mark-time molting occurs after this period. I can't really identify any stages beyond Z8 as I do not have access to electromicroscopy as yet..only a basic lab microscope.

Phytoplankton like T.chuii seems to be an important part of the diet from Z1 to Z2. Beyond that the nutritional role might not be that great. One food item I find the larvae take with relish are crab eggs plucked fresh from the gravid crab. :)

[The Cardinal]

Well thanks for all the advise, unfortunately my last shrimp died after 54 days. I hope I will do better next time with more knowledge in my back.

Please keep posting your successes and failures when trying to breed this tricky customer. And don´t give up :)!

[m.rogers]

There is a lfs here in MD. and the owner was telling me that he has breed cleaner shrimp and sold they when he first told me this i thought he was talking $hit (i thought that they had never been breed, i still have alot to learn) but after reading all the stuff that you have all done my thoughts have changed. His email is seasaveemail@msn.com and his site is seasave.net

mike

[spawner]

Well he is not selling tank raised cleaners for 14 bucks.

[Kathy55g]

I'll bet he raised peppermints and not cleaners....

[chlupl]

just because he has raised and sold doesn't mean he still does, can do on a regular basis, or even can do at all. i would have no idea if he is talking $hit or not, but he may have done it and either decided it was too much of a PITA (he he... I just noticed that PITA is a pain in the a$$, lol), or he couldn't reproduce his efforts.

FWIW,
Steven

[malachai]

I am currently trying to raise our coral banded shrimp lavae stenopus hispidus (110 days and counting). Keep postin it will help us all. Good Luck

[Luis A M]

Malachai,I´m impressed :)
My record with them is only 40 days :(
Could you tell us more?Good luck with them!

[oama]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6314095#post6314095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmleah
I'll bet he raised peppermints and not cleaners....

But, Peppermint's are Cleaners. They use to give me the best manicures, I had the cleanest nails in the lab! :D

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6346575#post6346575 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oama
But, Peppermint's are Cleaners. They use to give me the best manicures, I had the cleanest nails in the lab! :D
Well,yes,somehow:p
Peppers are facultative cleaners,some like L.californica do clean morays and big fishes in caves,others clean fish only occasionally,while others never do.Others are tube sponge dwellers like some neon gobies.
For practical purposes the term "cleaner"should be reserved for the obligate cleaners,L.ambinensis,L.debelius and their sibling species.They make their life in their cleaning stations which they advertice with their white antennae.Cleaners are closely related ( I disagree with Andy in this:D ) as evidenced by their long larval time and their developing of paddles in three pairs of pereiopods (legs) 3º,4º and 5º.All other Lysmata,the peppermints,have shorter larval time and paddles only in the 5th pair.

[oama]

Luis, Old Friend,
Not sure if you will get the referance, but you sound like "Mr. Wizard".:D
Or at least the mailman from Cheers.
My post was in part a jest.
But....You have to call a Spade a Spade.
Peppermints DO clean. If one wants to clarify definitions, then I would use the term "Obligate Cleaners" for other species such as the Scarlets. Stating that Peppermints are "not really cleaners" is not true. I have no problem with a three tiered profile: non-cleaners, cleaners and obligate cleaners.

But then again, are the Obligates truly Obligate? So they would die off if they had no fish to clean? Hmmm.

Granted, the instars have a unique difference from other species. Maybe that should be the criteria for differentiating the groups.

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6347971#post6347971 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oama
Luis, Old Friend,
Not sure if you will get the referance, but you sound like "Mr. Wizard".:D
Or at least the mailman from Cheers.

I don´t get the reference cause I don´t have a cue about who Mr.Wizard,Cheers (or the mailman)are.See where I live:lol:
Anyway,is it good or bad?:confused:
As far as "cleaners and peppermints"I find they are two natural groups for the reasons exposed.
But I think it was Andy who began to call "peppermints"to all Lysmata other than the "cleaners".So he could jump in and defend his creature:D

[FuEl]

Well done malachai! Your banded coral shrimp larvae should be settling soon. :) I've tried Stenopus cyanoscelis larvae to 30 days + but they grew slowly and all died eventually. Possibly because I fed them solely Artemia nauplii. If I'm not wrong Stenopus larvae need rotifers for faster initial development?

[spawner]

Luis,

Hope you are enjoying the warm weather, I am in PA for Christmas. Burr.....

Yes Doug, Bill as SMS FP station has a nice touch tank with some peppermints in there just for that, cleaning people's fingers. I finally saw my first L. wurdemanni on a moray eel last summer. The moray wasn't too happy with me when I took the shrimp off his mouth.

Luis, also forgets that I am setting on some data here when I tell people that cleaners are closer related to the old "Hippolysmata" than the "Lysmata" But they are. They are an off branch of the Hippolysmata peppermints. I hope to be able to share this soon, if Curt (Doug did I tell you he got married?) would get off his rump and finish the genetics. I am shipping him a fresh set of tissue out next week for a final fun and then its out to the reviewers. Also the larval development is very different between the Lysmata and Hippolysmata groups.

Luis is more or less correct saying that their are two groups, his would be an ecological grouping, cleaners: pair bonded low density fish experts, peppermints, group living, eat anything more or less. My placement is based on phylogentics. I have a peppermint that sits in the ecological group of the cleaners, so its a bit of a mess. It's more of an ecologically forced low density species an a derived species.

[The Cardinal]

I thought it was time to bring this thread back to the surface after more than eight months. Has anyone more information on breeding Cleaner shrimps at this point?

Spawner: how is your research going?

Thanks

Peter