Does anyone own a Leafy Sea Dragon?? [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

pledosophy

12/16/2005, 01:09 AM

There is no one breeding Leafy's. Public Aquariums have been succsessful a handful of time breeding Weedy seadragon's but I really mean a handful of times.

There is a guy, David and his wife Tracy, in Australia that have some Leafy's, to my knowledge they have never been able to breed them. I think he would have mentioned it if they did.

There are som ehobbyist in Hong Kong who keep them, they have far less restrictions on imports there.

Leafy's are impracticle for the average hobbyist to keep because of the size tank they need and there cost. They are strictly protected in Australia, and I hope they stay that way.

There was a LFS here that was selling them about 6 years ago for only 1g. Kind of a bargin no? They have not had any for some time.

Seahorsewisprer

12/16/2005, 06:30 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6296053#post6296053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pledosophy
TThere is a guy, David and his wife Tracy, in Australia that have some Leafy's, to my knowledge they have never been able to breed them.

Tracy Warland something, the author who runs syngnathid.com? I spoke with her on her site a few times. She seems really nice and knowlegable.

We need to be just a bit patient with these fish. With the push for advanced aquarists to breed some of the harder to breed in captivity fish, it is just a matter of time before everything else is done and somebody gets the elusive grand prize o'
CaptiveBreederofalltime!!!

Seahorsewisprer

12/16/2005, 06:33 AM

NanoLurker

12/16/2005, 08:32 PM

pledosophy is correct, no one has figured out how to breed leafy's. the aquarium of the pacific in long beach was the first to breed/rear weedy's but the leafy's are a whole 'nother nut. they are currently experimenting with temperature and lighting fluctuations and a few other things - time will tell.

i know of one person who has, i believe, a weedy here in california. i've never seen it but my vet has.

pledosophy

12/17/2005, 01:14 AM

Yeah Suzy I meant the Warlands. I have conversed with David several times. Very nice and knowledgable chap. First I ever heard Tracy owns Syngnathid.org, or was an author for that matter, but I have seen her on the boards.

They own a breed facility in OZ. Hopefull one day I can get some brevies from them. Oh the things dreams are made of.

cutsupremetrib

12/17/2005, 11:11 PM

the tampa aquarium has some of these georgeous animals

pledosophy

12/18/2005, 12:06 AM

Many public aquariums do. The display at the Aquarium of the Pacific is quite nice.

alien9168

12/19/2005, 06:27 PM

The natl. aquarium in baltimore. I think they sent them away to europe though. I saw them and I have to say...THEY ARE AMAZING!!!

The creatures are not only beutiful, but are incredibly camaflaged when you see them in real life...like amidst kelp(thats how they had them in the natl. aquarium.)

This sounds obvious...being the LEAFY seadragon, but youd be surprised how hard it was to find them initially amongs the kelp. Of course once you find them you cant take your eyes off them! :D

-Alien

modernsavage

12/21/2005, 01:45 PM

i cant wait to be able to buy some of these!

greenighs

12/22/2005, 09:09 AM

Well, to keep one alive and healthy, you'd need a very large tank (500 gallons+) and an industrial-sized chiller, and an ongoing source of various live foods. Oh, and the proper permits and licences to keep them, and about $2500 per animal .... Maybe some day they'll be in every fish store, but many, many of them will have to die in less than ideal conditions before we figure out how to do it right. :(

delafe

12/22/2005, 09:09 AM

There are a few at the New York Aquarium. About the only tanks worth looking at are the seahorse tanks!

There used to be a guy in Canada that claimed he was breeding them and sold them for 15K each, I suspect he was just importing them illegally.

If I am not mistaken, they are on the endangered species list and they DEFINATELY are listed in CITES.

Regards,

-Alfred

bigbenji

12/23/2005, 11:01 PM

The Toledo Zoo currently has these on display. I don't know anything about their setup or how they aquired them, but its worth the drive just to get to see these guys up close. They've also got a dragon eel, and dragonets as part of their "dragons alive" exhibit.

kjdeut

12/24/2005, 10:47 PM

The Shedd Aquarium in Chicago had some, Very cool looking.

btuck

12/27/2005, 04:00 AM

Public Aquaria and research groups are the only ones who are able to get them legally. They are collected during the month of January only and are protected by CITES and IUCN. I believe the cost to our zoo is $2,500 per dragon.
Not to mention I don't think most people would want to keep a 300 gallon aquarium and only have one fish in it. :D

Seahorsewisprer

12/27/2005, 05:43 AM

Welcome to RC, Btuck! Which aquarium are you with?

btuck

12/27/2005, 12:39 PM

Thanks for the welcome Seahorsewisprer. Perhaps I was somewhat misleading in my last post. I myself do not work for the zoo (Indianapolis) but do have friends in the aquatics section. I do have a tendency to go somewhat overboard in my research when I am interested in a topic. Perhaps I am just a bit OCD.

imbuggin

12/27/2005, 12:49 PM

I have seen them at many public aquariums around the world. The question I have is why everyone thinks they need these huge tanks? ALL of the times I have seen them on display it was never a huge tank and a few of them were together? They move slow like seahorses and swim little. So why do you all think they need 300-500 gallon tanks. Non of the public aquariums seem to agree?

That being said they are wicked cool and I am glad they are protected. I am not recomending keeping them in small tanks. I just have never seen them in large tanks like people are claiming.

Samala

12/27/2005, 01:03 PM

Never rely on your eyes when it comes to public aquarium display size. You often see only a fraction of the tank. In displays where aquascaping isnt placed as to create the sense of depth what may be a four foot deep (front to back) tank may only look one or two feet max. Some aquariums also use column style tanks where much of the equipment is placed behind the main wall in an effective sump. I particularly remember one four foot long tank that looked all of 75gallons but was in fact 400 gallons! :D

>Sarah

imbuggin

12/27/2005, 01:42 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6365249#post6365249 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Samala
Never rely on your eyes when it comes to public aquarium display size. You often see only a fraction of the tank. In displays where aquascaping isnt placed as to create the sense of depth what may be a four foot deep (front to back) tank may only look one or two feet max. Some aquariums also use column style tanks where much of the equipment is placed behind the main wall in an effective sump. I particularly remember one four foot long tank that looked all of 75gallons but was in fact 400 gallons! :D

>Sarah

nope sorry not the case at all. In fact I inquired and saw the entire set-up at some places. (the chiller is the main part)Take the junky mall of America for example. they have a "shark reef" or aquarium in it. Although I will definately say it is not one of the better establishments I have seen (or even close). They have 2 or 3 in a cylinder stand alone tank. At most the tank is 200 gallons or so. Still it has the swimming room of a 30 gallon tank. This is just one example, I have seen them many many times in tanks no where near the sizes people are claiming to be needed.

My question still stands. Why they don't swim much and move slow. They require little current if any. So why in the world do they need 500 gallon tanks? They don't If the 400 gallons as you claim is behind the fish tank than the water is only there for volume and stability. Nothing to do with what the fish needs?

verytricky

12/27/2005, 01:47 PM

Only the Australian govenrment has made them illegal, and their authority does not extend outside of Australia.

They are currently avalable from syngapore and hongkong, in the region of $2000 at this time, plus shipping costs for 3 month olds.

You can freely import them into the US, you have to follow standard USDW guidelines - there are no CITES or other restrictive rulings.

Expect landed cost to be IRO $2800 each for 4. ( four would fit a standard shipping container therefore only one package cost. )

If you seriously have both the tank and the chiller for them - they can make a nice display tank. You will need minimum 3 foot wide, 5 foot long and 3 foot high tank. Basically they are quite hardy and quite agressive feeders. They eat frozen, and train easier than most WC seahorses!

Issues specifically with light - Sudden changes in light shocks theml, and they die.

Issues specifically with temperature - heat kills them very quickly.

Issues with their snout. Hiting rocks, tank walls etc, especially when feeding. They tend to push snout out of the water, and the trap dries and cracks - dont know why, but it kills them.

Samala

12/27/2005, 02:34 PM

Um.. I'm not claiming anything, I'm telling you what I've worked with and have seen at other institutions. And just mentioning what I have noticed in general across public aquaria.. judging size accurately is hard to do and that you dont always see the full system.

If you're going to go to the trouble to keep them, make their home the biggest most dramatic display you can afford to do.. which is exactly what often happens.

MinuteJohn

12/27/2005, 03:17 PM

Here's an article (http://www.petfishtalk.com/shows/040204.htm) of interest. I was under the impression they had never been bred in captivity but I guess I was ill-informed.

"In 2001 the Sea Dragons at the Aquarium of the Pacific bred and produced baby Sea Dragons for the first time in captivity."

After the marine biologists iron out the wrinkles in captive breeding some enterprising aquariusts will start breeding them for sale. I wouldn't be suprised if in 10 years there are a few people on this board with seadragons in their homes. Hopefully I will be one of them. Amazing creatures.

verytricky

12/27/2005, 05:15 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6366073#post6366073 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MinuteJohn
I was under the impression they had never been bred in captivity but I guess I was ill-informed. [/B]

No - I think you got it right.

There are two species generally held, weedies and leafies. Weedies have been bred in captivity, Leafies not AFAIK.

INNOVATOR

12/27/2005, 09:17 PM

CITES has identified their need for attention and have labeled them as Data Deficient for now until further research can be conducted. They are under export control from Australia; however, the assumed threat is once the South East Asian regions have depleted their stocks (medicinal purposes), new stock focus' will be directed to Australia.

Most public aquariums would prefer to have them in a reasonable sized tank because of their large adult size and mating habits. Obviously, taller displays are most important to prevent breaching the surface plus the advantage of better water parameter control i.e. stability. Of course, there is the public phenomenom factor. Who woudn't love to go see a huge P. eques display? ;)

Seahorsewisprer

12/28/2005, 06:59 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6368418#post6368418 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by INNOVATOR
[B] the assumed threat is once the South East Asian regions have depleted their stocks (medicinal purposes),

Geez! Why can't they just use Viagra like the rest of the planet?!

I still think it's only a matter of time 'till someone realizes the lucrative potential here! The advances in captive breeding techinigues, esp the increasing availability of highly nutritious zoo and phytoplankton cultures are very encouraging to those of us watching the CB market explode.

Maybe OR will try it when CB seahorses are in every LFS for $20 bucks! Hopefully, they will know the weird shipping requirements!

Bluetangclan

12/28/2005, 05:07 PM

Actually my LFS has gotten them before special order after more than a few years of trying. I beleive he told me his were aqualcultured and there was a waiting list and a customer on the suppliers end backed out and one came open. Price tag for the little bad boy was something like $7000, not counting how much the chilled large volume tall tank setup he sold as well. This was about 5 years ago when he sold it. From what he told me, it is still doing fine. This is also the guy I am working with on finding some other hard to find Sygnathids from around the world.

Bluetangclan

12/28/2005, 05:16 PM

double post

btuck

12/28/2005, 08:27 PM

seadragons need larger tanks both because of their size and territoral behavior. Just because they don't move much doesn't mean they don't need it. They need space to be happy. I could live in a house the size of a cardboard box but I wouldn't be very happy in it.

Perhaps we have been given different information but I've always been told that they won't accept dead food. They only eat live. Their food must be able to grow in colder waters such as mysis. So not only will you need a chiller for your dragon but you will also need a seperate tank and chiller to grow your food. (Unless you want to constantly be buying live food.)

With all the difficulties it would take to raise one of these creatures I don't think it's worth even trying to keep them. But that's just my opinion.

swims withthe fishes

01/08/2006, 01:33 PM

If you can't understand the reccomendations set for a leafy, then you should take a look at the care requirements for a standard readily available seahorse in captivity, and multiply it by 10,000 for this very rare and nearly unattainable, expensive creature...

i have a $3,000 setup for a $50 fish, what do you expect to spend to house a $7500 fish?

though the mall of america may do something, would you ask an employee at the mall for tank setup advice? not me.

agilis

01/08/2006, 01:59 PM

Sure, I've got lots of leafy Sea Dragons, so many I use them as feeder fish for my beloved Mantis Shrimp.

All seriousness aside though, why is it that so many seahorse fans seem to have two digit IQs? Do they really think that seahorses are in some way profoundly different from other fishes? Some of these seahorse fans seem to have a bad case of Fantasy Fi****is. This includes including a couple who write for aquarium magazines. The use of terms like "hitching post", "mare", "mustang, or "colt", and the hippocampusization of what is nothing more than a highly specialized fish form that evolved in response to environmental cues, suggests a need for a hefty dose of Traditional Chinese Medicine in powdered form.

Bluetangclan

01/08/2006, 02:37 PM

Can you say useless troll? if you dont have anything valuable to add, then shut the hell up and dont comment. This is a hobbyist board for the spread of useful information not a place for idiots to try and start arguements, Agilis.

agilis

01/08/2006, 03:18 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful and instructive comments.

I am a follower of this hobby, and I thought my remarks might be useful, in some way. I'm not sure what you mean by"troll". Did you have the underthebridge kind in mind, or did you intend some high-tech internet meaning?

In any event, your courtesy does you great credit, and is undoubtedly matched by your aquaristic skill.

Bluetangclan

01/08/2006, 03:25 PM

I still havent figured out whether you are serious or just "trolling" the board for an arguement. Appearently you have never had sygs enough to know they are kept very different from standard fish. Suggesting that they be turned into powder for those bastards in Asia for their hokey medicine on a seahorse board isnt exactly the most politically correct thing to do either.

Swanwillow

01/08/2006, 03:47 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452872#post6452872 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agilis
Sure, I've got lots of leafy Sea Dragons, so many I use them as feeder fish for my beloved Mantis Shrimp.

All seriousness aside though, why is it that so many seahorse fans seem to have two digit IQs? Do they really think that seahorses are in some way profoundly different from other fishes? Some of these seahorse fans seem to have a bad case of Fantasy Fi****is. This includes including a couple who write for aquarium magazines. The use of terms like "hitching post", "mare", "mustang, or "colt", and the hippocampusization of what is nothing more than a highly specialized fish form that evolved in response to environmental cues, suggests a need for a hefty dose of Traditional Chinese Medicine in powdered form.

seahorses use hitching posts... its what they hitch to... they have flexable tails, and need to beable to wrap it around something in order to, well, do seahorse things. I have never heard a seahorse called a mare or a colt... mustang, yes, but thats because some places tacked that name onto them. you speak of mantis's... so you should know a few words used there that others may not-feeding sticks, stomatopods, peacocks, segment lines, photoreceptors...

did I mention that I had a mantis shrimp? to seahorse keepers, that whole line is mostly nonesense, whereas if I went to the stomatopod forum, and asked "how many photoreceptors are used at midnight during a full moon" it would erupt into a very intelligent discussion.

I do wish that people would stop using things at the rate that they do:IE powdered seahorses, ect. its disgusting!!! I can see the use, but not for what they use it as, or the rate they do. I come from an alternative religion that respects nature, but I would be ashamed to use an animal part in any ceremony that I do. I'll burn renewable resources, I'll eat jerky... and steak, hamburger, things like that. But nothing is ENDANGERED and everything that is used in my religion is plant based, and fully renewable. IF anything that I do use becomes hard to find, I will stop using it. I will not go out and buy holly if it somehow becomes nearly endangered.

verytricky

01/08/2006, 03:57 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6374932#post6374932 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by btuck
Perhaps we have been given different information but I've always been told that they won't accept dead food. They only eat live.
Robin James, who is in the UK showed me his collection of dragons, all of which eat frozen. They are agressive feeders of frozen foods.

In Minnneappolliss ( damn name! ) there is an aquarium where they converted them to frozen in 4 days! Try that with a seahorse!:mad2:

agilis

01/08/2006, 04:01 PM

Looking for an argument? Are you a Monty Python fan. No, I''m not.

Keeping seahorses successfully has specific requirements, but what, I wonder, is a "standard" fish? Aren't there many kinds of fishes with very specialized needs that can only be met in species- dedicated aquariums? I never questioned that. In fact, my seahorse experience is fairly extensive. I've even raised a few from itty-bitty cute little colts. What a pain! Greenwater cultures and rotifers, plankton collecting, multiple rearing corrals, etc.

These days, those that have the bad luck to be born in one of my aquaria either get embedded in lucite or sent straight to China.

mickey57

02/06/2006, 10:45 PM

..............Agilis,Look up top and see what forum you are in:rolleyes: Be gone Troll;)
..............Mickey

agilis

02/07/2006, 09:32 AM

the forum seems to be "Seahorses and Pipefish". Perhaps that ought to be "Pipefishes", but let's not quibble. In any case, I think my posts were indeed within that category.
Unless I missed something, the forum is not entitled "Posts from militantly devoted lovers of seahorses and pipefishes". It seems to me that the actual forum title can legitimately include topics that suggest a dislike of these creatures, and of those who keep them. The only implicit limitation is that the topic involve seahorses and their relatives. I think my my posts meet that criterion.

In connection with the "troll" term you seem to have directed at me, I think it is inaccurate, since I don't live under a bridge and devour hapless villagers. Lighten up dude. Check with your local community college, and see if they offer courses like " Developing a sense of humor, even if you are a literal-minded belligerent dullard".

mickey57

02/07/2006, 10:47 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6685864#post6685864 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agilis
Check with your local community college, and see if they offer courses like " Developing a sense of humor, even if you are a literal-minded belligerent dullard".
............***************..............
........................Yeap,Troll fits here.Stop by FCCJ and sign up for my class.Off with you,Troll.Go bother the decorator crab people ;)
......................Mickey

agilis

02/07/2006, 01:18 PM

My guess is that you are an untenured adjunct, one of those retired technical or marketing types so often employed by open admissions community colleges. Many of these institutions take advantage of intellectually enfeebled retirees, paying them only three or four hundred per credit hour. Perhaps I am wrong, yeaping to unwarranted conclusions.

What is "yeap"? Is this a regional variant of "yep"?
Another thing: is "begone" part of your normal spoken vocabulary? Do you sometimes couple it with "knave" or "varlet"?

I notice that you ignored the substance of my reply to your initial post, the one suggesting I scan upward to this forum's title. Instead, you choose to focus on my community college suggestion, making it clear that you taught a class at one of those places. It hath a pretentious smack.

Seriously, though, I wish you'd confine your comments to issues connected with seahorses and pipefishes. Just scan up and check out the name of this forum.

imbuggin

02/07/2006, 01:25 PM

grow up guys you have made this thread worthless and it should be closed! Try pming each other we don't care about you non reef related battles.

agilis

02/07/2006, 01:44 PM

Just kidding. You are right. I apologize. I'll go and sin no more; or, at least, grow the heck up.

cutsupremetrib

02/07/2006, 05:10 PM

wow what a post LOL

MarkKlier

02/07/2006, 07:12 PM

MinuteJohn..thanks for the link, some very good information, enjoyed it. MK

TankFabricator

06/15/2006, 03:00 PM

Hugs... not hate

RichConley

06/19/2006, 11:25 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6365154#post6365154 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by imbuggin
I have seen them at many public aquariums around the world. The question I have is why everyone thinks they need these huge tanks? ALL of the times I have seen them on display it was never a huge tank and a few of them were together? They move slow like seahorses and swim little. So why do you all think they need 300-500 gallon tanks. Non of the public aquariums seem to agree?

That being said they are wicked cool and I am glad they are protected. I am not recomending keeping them in small tanks. I just have never seen them in large tanks like people are claiming.

I've seen them in 2 places, New England Aquarium, and The Shedd, and in both, the tanks were 1000g+, NEAQ being a tank that was an ~6' circle, and 6-8 feet deep.

So I completely disagree.

RichConley

06/19/2006, 11:34 AM

And honestly, I agree with the 'troll.' Horsies are just specialized fish, and honestly aren't that difficult to keep. People seem to get all silly when theyre concerned.

melsteve

06/20/2006, 01:10 AM

Hi I keep and have permits export dragons in Australia so thought may clear up a few things,
Leafies are highly protected but there are permits for a couple of persons to take gravid males once a year to raise and sell they are I think only allowed to take 1 and this must be returned to the area where it was collected.
These are genrally the leafies you see in public aquaria

Weedies have been captive breed and raised by a few persons for a number of years and can be exported and are currently not under cities and there are some allowed to taken from the wild under special permits genrally for brood stock.
There are a few public aquariums including the one here in Melbourne that a completed the cycle by breeding young from captive raised animals.
They do seem to fair better in depper tanks ours are 6 foot .
If you have any questions please email at [email protected]

Regards Steve:)

JHemdal

06/20/2006, 10:11 AM

RichConley,

I sort of understand this perception: Your yellow tang "kicks the bucket", but your seahorse "passes away". Your mandarin goby "won't eat" while your seahorse "is pining away" There is definately some anthropomorphism going on with some people and seahorses...not sure why, they certainly do not possess the typical attributes that engender this response in humans - round face, cuddly, etc.

I'm working on a magazine article about breeding seahorses in home aquariums and I was really trying to avoid the whole "cutesy" thing - but I did end up writing how cute the babies are, and how that can sometimes affect people's judgement (as in trying to raise 300 larval horses when you only have food to feed 50).

That said, I actually have four leafy seadragons in my care. They are about 18 months old, not quite adult size and they are in a 100 gallon tank. We will need to move them to a 500 gallon tank by the end of the year (mainly to give them more water depth in the hopes to get them to breed). One of the females released infertile eggs a few weeks ago.

Jay Hemdal

FishGrrl

06/20/2006, 12:03 PM

(adding to the derail)

I agree on the cutesy names. It can get under my skin sometimes, and as a whole makes seahorse hobbyists harder to take seriously. (Though I still do refer to hitching posts as hitching posts.)

Its not just in the hobby though; I'm positive that the reason Project Seahorse gets so much attention is because of the cutesy perception the public has of seahorses. There are many animals that need more protection but seahorses win because they catch the public's interests.

It unfortunately also has the side affect of some hobbyists not addressing the real issues when they're fish are sick - I have seen it happen many times. For instance, a mate dies, and the other "dies of loneliness" when in all likelihood it died from the same thing that killed the other.

[/derail]

Jay, if one weren't interested in breeding, could you keep leafies in a 100 gallon long term? That's actually bordering on a reasonable sized tank for many people.

JHemdal

06/20/2006, 01:17 PM

I'm not certain that it would be appropriate to keep four leafies in a 100 gallon tank - maybe one or two would be o.k. for the long term. The exhibit we have them in now was designed to be a temporary display from April 2005 until October 2005. It then got extended to October 2006.
Each year around February, two major dealers in Japan get Leafies in from Australia (young of the year). My understanding is that they will sell to hobbyists, but the cost is around $3000 each plus shipping. We opted to import our animals direct from Australia. from the grower there.

Jay

FishGrrl

06/20/2006, 05:20 PM

Thanks for the answer!

I personally am not interested; nor think I would ever be interested (too much work!) but I just find it interesting that it would even be possible in a tank that is available as a standard size; say a 125 or 180. Interesting.

And I had a friend who was desperately interested in them a few years ago - he may even have talked to the suppliers you describe as the price he was quoted was around $3000 for a leafy and $1000 for a weedy. At the time he asked me for help, and all I could find was nothing less that a 500 gallon would do.