Serious Disscussion of Zoanthids Growth

[giantbicycle]

Hey..Zooanthids keepers out there..

I would like to have a serious disscussion on The growth rate of Zooanthids..


1: Which is the best way to Make Zooanthids Spread Rapidly (Fastest)?

2: IS it True that Placing them High up nearning to the MH will promote fast growth as well as spreading?

3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth?

4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte?

5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current?

6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed..


Comments will be well apperciated
Thanks.
Merry X Mas.
:rollface:

[MUCHO REEF]

Wow, that is a great question. I can't believe no one is sharing their feelings and opinions on this.

Mooch

[giantbicycle]

Hey there.Thanks....



I really would apperciate if Zoo's lover share their input..

hey Mooch, Why not you start first? :p

[alexinfla]

Excellent questions for a REAL discussion. I've been working with them awhile so I'll share input tomorrow with more time.

But for now....the REAL lesson I've learned over the years is :

No matter what you do, the prettiest and most coveted will grow the slowest...all else being equal.

:) Happy Friday night!

[giantbicycle]

HA, yeah well said.. alexinfla :)

I bascically think that its because we are stressing all the nice pieces out by watching them daily , always tend to change position and stuff. Unlike normal kinds which we just put a side and let them, start to weed.:D

Anw,I belive all else are the same , Just a matter of requirements i must say...


Do share with us more input if you do have,and yes.

Happy Friday Night to you too. :rollface:

[Snakebyt]

I have not been doing it long enough to have any input, but i do have some that i have seen no growth from, and others that i have noticed alot of growth from. I think they are like other things in a reef, some "strains" are geneticly inclined to grow faster

[giantbicycle]

Got it Snakebyt .

Yeah ,its true that we need to do it long enough for some valueable INPUts which can hearby conclude the growth rate of zooanthids.

But , Even a small period of time can determind the growth rare if they are being ovserved and recoarded From time to time..


.................................................................................................... .....

What the Disscussion is all about is by

Discussing ways and points on how to improve growth rates of spreading.

The inside's out of the myth of spreading zooanthids.

THEre are sure Ways that affect zooanthids growth rares in our tank..

What are the ways?

We needa share. :)

[66deuce]

In my experience..... questions 2-5 are true.

[fish1219]

I have 2 different type of zoo's on 1 rock. 1 kind is moving/reproducing up the rock toward the light. The other kind is moving/reproducing down/away from the light. So I guess there is no real answer becuase it is dependant on what type of zoo's you have.

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6303132#post6303132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 66deuce
In my experience..... questions 2-5 are true.

Hey there...Icee...Do you have any statement of proove to justify your explanation? :D :D

Pictures shows a million. :rolleyes:


Thanks for the input anw...


Cheers.:)

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6303327#post6303327 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fish1219
I have 2 different type of zoo's on 1 rock. 1 kind is moving/reproducing up the rock toward the light. The other kind is moving/reproducing down/away from the light. So I guess there is no real answer becuase it is dependant on what type of zoo's you have.

True....But there sure be a reason for this too. :cool:

Hope to get as many reasons to justify as possible, after that we can complie all of them and take a look at them:)

[giantbicycle]

Any Interesting findings? Please Share your inputs...

Really hope to hear more from you guys out there as a Zoo keeper.

[wetWolger]

well I am not sure you can generalize it like that. IMO every zoa is diffrent. IME the bigger the polyp the faster they grow, also the uglyier the faster they grow. Some of mine love being up high in the tank. While another bunch barley grew at all till I moved them almost to the bottom. Always open and looking good, just some zoas like diffrent setting. I know I am not helping much but I just don't think you can say this formula equals this amount of growth.

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6308293#post6308293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jent46bow
well I am not sure you can generalize it like that. IMO every zoa is diffrent. IME the bigger the polyp the faster they grow, also the uglyier the faster they grow. Some of mine love being up high in the tank. While another bunch barley grew at all till I moved them almost to the bottom. Always open and looking good, just some zoas like diffrent setting. I know I am not helping much but I just don't think you can say this formula equals this amount of growth.


Right...Thanks for the input..

but wad actually are thre main causes for the advance growth of zoa ?

current? Light, few polypS?

As in the majority of most zoos?

Hope you get wad i mean. :)

[CoralNutz]

First off it's Zoanthid as oppesed to Zooanthid... I thought we just covered this a few threads back. :lol: (just kidding around)

I would love to join this conversation and I do indeed have lots of pictures and theories as to get the polyp:month ration up as high as I can. I think first we need to clarify, re we talking just zoanthids? Or are we including Protopalythoa and Palythoa as well. Because if we are, they are completely differnet beasts and all merrit their own discussion, IMO. People seem to lump these all together quite often, so I just want to clarify?

[whodah]

feeding
in my experience, some zoas 'react' to food, some 'eat' food (mostly palys), and others don't seem to even know i'm squirting them w/ food.

i'm not convinced that any of my zoas eat, but i am very convinced that some of my palys do.

exponential growth
another note, and it may seem obvious once stated, is that zoanthid growth is exponential. i.e. if you start w/ 2 polyps and grow a 3rd in 7 weeks, then you can carry that same logic out (roughly) to where if you had 20 polyps, you'd get roughly 10 more in the same time period.

furthermore, it seems to be at a greater exponential rate than just a simple multiplier factor. i.e. it seems to be more than just 1.5x the polyp count every y time period. i'm not gonna go try and find a differential equation to describe their growth, but it seems to be that you might get 1.5x the first y period, then 1.55x the second y period, then 1.6x the third y period, etc. until it levels off at some growth rate number.

i've noticed this to be pretty consistent while watching them grow. there are other factors, i.e. surface area adjacent to potential growth areas vs. the highly populated center of a colony, but you get the idea. :D (for the math and engineering peeps out there: assume the horse is a sphere! LOL)

so unfortunately, that logic lends itself to 'not fragging'. blasphemy! heehee!

so what do you do? frag or grow?

well, here's my game plan. not saying it's right or wrong, just what i do! :) if i've got a new colony or frag, after about 3 weeks of it being in my tank (to allow it to recoup from transport/fragging/new-tank-syndrome), i'll frag it and get it out to a couple of my key local trading buddies for backups. (they extend the same courtesy to me - a symbiotic relationship, ha ha!) then i'll let them grow to the unjustifiable number of 30 polyps. 30 polyps just seems like an aesthetically pleasing number of polyps to me when looking at zoas in my tank. it doesn't look like a 'frag' still, but not a colony either. once i'm at 30, i'll start fragging here and there for people as requested while 'slowly' letting my mother colony's numbers grow as well. remember - once yer at 30 polyps, yer growth is going to be much 'quicker' - or at least a higher quantity of polyps, not necessarily quicker.

so let's play out a year's worth of growth. numerically and chronologically, it would look something like:

day 1 - new frag of 6 polyps comes in. DIP IT!! heh
day 21 - (3 weeks since i've had them) perhaps 1 new polyp, frag it into 1 x 2 polyp and 1 x 5 polyp frags. get one in another tank!!!
day 70 - at ~ 8 polyps
day 119 - at ~ 13 polyps
day 168 - at ~21 polyps
day 217 - at ~32 polyps - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to 27 polyps
day 266 - at ~ 40-42 polyps (depending how the colony reacted to the fragging) - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to ~36 polyps
day 315 - at ~ 55 polyps - the surface area at which the zoas can spread out is large, but no 'center' growth as there's nowhere for the center polyps to grow! frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 45 polyps
day 364 - at ~ 62 polyps, same growth restraints, frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 52


so in ~ 3/4 year, i'm ready for fragging. after 1 years time, my mother colony is at ~52 polyps, and i've made a total of 7 frags. and after this mark, i'm making 2 frags per month and soon 3 polyp frags per month.

also - you noticed that i made mention of no 'center' growth as it's crowded out. this lends to more advanced fragging techniques involving fragging the middle of your colony and not just the edges. why? well, if you make frags in the middle of your colony, then the middle zoas have a place to grow too. thus, yer getting border growth and middle growth. it is a lot more work to frag in this manner though...

thoughts?

[CoralNutz]

Who Dah? I'm confused. Are you saying that if you have a the ratio of growth is going to stay roughly the same percentage bases on the amount of polyps?

IME, if your looking to grow out a nice colony, then patience is what you really need. If you are trying to get the most polyps/month. Then fragging them small is the key.

This is from another thread... Was to lazy to retype it......

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6257622#post6257622 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
It's been documented by lots of people that single baby polyps will produce polyps more rapidly when they are single then the colony, on a polyp per polyp basis.

Example. If you slice of a single polyp (I recomment full sized polyps) and glue it onto a piece of rubble or a frag plug. It's not uncommon for that one polyp so be surrounded by three more polyps within a month.

So for the 100 polyp colony to keep up with that growth rate of the single poylp frag, it would need to sprout 300 new polyps within a month, which isn't going to happen.

Anthony Calfo talks about this in his coral propagation book, but was mainly talking about LPS (blaso's) and how that if you take a single blasto polyp and frag it, it will grow new polyps quickly on all sides as a recovery method. But he noticed that the colonies tended to just sprout babies on the predomonent side of the colony and not all the way around.

On October 15th (or close anyway) I sliced off two polyps of these sweet reds. One Dec. 3rd I took the second pic.

So in 1.5 months the two polyps turned into 7. So if a colony of 100 were to keep this pace you if would have grown from 100 to 350 polyps, wouldn't that be something.... :)

http://coralnutz.com/frags/growth.jpg


I am currently working on a flash demonstration for my website of this fragging theory. IME it is by far the fastest way to get polyps growing. When the frags are small. 1-3 polyps, the growth goes into overdrive for the next month till they hit about 10 polyps then it slows down a bit.

If your goal is to grow out a big colonie, then like I said, this doesn't help much. But if your like me and on the hunt for the largest, most bad arse polyp collection out there, this is the quickest way I have found to multiply them for trades, or sell them for money to buy other cool stuff.

[whodah]

CoralNutz - in essence, ya, that's what i was trying to say.

but after seeing what you just posted, i gotta say: woa - i need to pick up that book and try that technique!!

[whodah]

i was just thinking: so to get the best of both worlds... a large mother colony and frags... whatcha think about fragging the middle of zoas?

2 or 3 polyps from the middle of your small mother colony. as it grows (slowly) to a full mother colony, yer producing small frags at high rates?

i'm really excited about what you posted CoralNutz, i dind't know that!! thx!

[CoralNutz]

The book is OK, not really what I was looking for. There were a few tidbits of helpful info in there. But most of it was common sense and not nearly enough info on indoor reef farming. I live up here in Da Minnesotaaah and we don't be having to many dem der greenhouses yah.

I just started working on my website and plan on having lots of information, pictures, video clips and flash tutorials all on coral propping info. Mainly zoas and paly's. But some LPS info too. Also plan on having some info on how to properly pack/ship zoas/paly's using different shipping methods. I have been trying LOTS of different methods fragging zoas/paly's.... Some ideas worked great. Some were miserable failures. But I plan to hopefuly help others to start propping corals, even if they can't have a dedicated prop setup I have seen some pretty sweet prop areas inside display tanks. Some guy even has some eggcrate hanging up over the back of his aqaurium and it's kind of behind the rockwork so when you look straight at it you don't really see the frag rack. But he has enough spaces in the little area for about 20 zoa frags at any givin time. Anyway, enough of my babbling.. What other ideas do you folks have?

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6309312#post6309312 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
First off it's Zoanthid as oppesed to Zooanthid... I thought we just covered this a few threads back. :lol: (just kidding around)

I would love to join this conversation and I do indeed have lots of pictures and theories as to get the polyp:month ration up as high as I can. I think first we need to clarify, re we talking just zoanthids? Or are we including Protopalythoa and Palythoa as well. Because if we are, they are completely differnet beasts and all merrit their own discussion, IMO. People seem to lump these all together quite often, so I just want to clarify?

Hey coralNutz, The discussion here is all about zoanthids;)

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6310140#post6310140 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by whodah
feeding
in my experience, some zoas 'react' to food, some 'eat' food (mostly palys), and others don't seem to even know i'm squirting them w/ food.

i'm not convinced that any of my zoas eat, but i am very convinced that some of my palys do.

exponential growth
another note, and it may seem obvious once stated, is that zoanthid growth is exponential. i.e. if you start w/ 2 polyps and grow a 3rd in 7 weeks, then you can carry that same logic out (roughly) to where if you had 20 polyps, you'd get roughly 10 more in the same time period.

furthermore, it seems to be at a greater exponential rate than just a simple multiplier factor. i.e. it seems to be more than just 1.5x the polyp count every y time period. i'm not gonna go try and find a differential equation to describe their growth, but it seems to be that you might get 1.5x the first y period, then 1.55x the second y period, then 1.6x the third y period, etc. until it levels off at some growth rate number.

i've noticed this to be pretty consistent while watching them grow. there are other factors, i.e. surface area adjacent to potential growth areas vs. the highly populated center of a colony, but you get the idea. :D (for the math and engineering peeps out there: assume the horse is a sphere! LOL)

so unfortunately, that logic lends itself to 'not fragging'. blasphemy! heehee!

so what do you do? frag or grow?

well, here's my game plan. not saying it's right or wrong, just what i do! :) if i've got a new colony or frag, after about 3 weeks of it being in my tank (to allow it to recoup from transport/fragging/new-tank-syndrome), i'll frag it and get it out to a couple of my key local trading buddies for backups. (they extend the same courtesy to me - a symbiotic relationship, ha ha!) then i'll let them grow to the unjustifiable number of 30 polyps. 30 polyps just seems like an aesthetically pleasing number of polyps to me when looking at zoas in my tank. it doesn't look like a 'frag' still, but not a colony either. once i'm at 30, i'll start fragging here and there for people as requested while 'slowly' letting my mother colony's numbers grow as well. remember - once yer at 30 polyps, yer growth is going to be much 'quicker' - or at least a higher quantity of polyps, not necessarily quicker.

so let's play out a year's worth of growth. numerically and chronologically, it would look something like:

day 1 - new frag of 6 polyps comes in. DIP IT!! heh
day 21 - (3 weeks since i've had them) perhaps 1 new polyp, frag it into 1 x 2 polyp and 1 x 5 polyp frags. get one in another tank!!!
day 70 - at ~ 8 polyps
day 119 - at ~ 13 polyps
day 168 - at ~21 polyps
day 217 - at ~32 polyps - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to 27 polyps
day 266 - at ~ 40-42 polyps (depending how the colony reacted to the fragging) - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to ~36 polyps
day 315 - at ~ 55 polyps - the surface area at which the zoas can spread out is large, but no 'center' growth as there's nowhere for the center polyps to grow! frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 45 polyps
day 364 - at ~ 62 polyps, same growth restraints, frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 52


so in ~ 3/4 year, i'm ready for fragging. after 1 years time, my mother colony is at ~52 polyps, and i've made a total of 7 frags. and after this mark, i'm making 2 frags per month and soon 3 polyp frags per month.

also - you noticed that i made mention of no 'center' growth as it's crowded out. this lends to more advanced fragging techniques involving fragging the middle of your colony and not just the edges. why? well, if you make frags in the middle of your colony, then the middle zoas have a place to grow too. thus, yer getting border growth and middle growth. it is a lot more work to frag in this manner though...

thoughts?

Great Input and findings...Really apperciate for your sharing:)

Hopefully there are more to come Thats wad i am requesting for

Thanks once again. Its a great start:cool:

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6310470#post6310470 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
The book is OK, not really what I was looking for. There were a few tidbits of helpful info in there. But most of it was common sense and not nearly enough info on indoor reef farming. I live up here in Da Minnesotaaah and we don't be having to many dem der greenhouses yah.

I just started working on my website and plan on having lots of information, pictures, video clips and flash tutorials all on coral propping info. Mainly zoas and paly's. But some LPS info too. Also plan on having some info on how to properly pack/ship zoas/paly's using different shipping methods. I have been trying LOTS of different methods fragging zoas/paly's.... Some ideas worked great. Some were miserable failures. But I plan to hopefuly help others to start propping corals, even if they can't have a dedicated prop setup I have seen some pretty sweet prop areas inside display tanks. Some guy even has some eggcrate hanging up over the back of his aqaurium and it's kind of behind the rockwork so when you look straight at it you don't really see the frag rack. But he has enough spaces in the little area for about 20 zoa frags at any givin time. Anyway, enough of my babbling.. What other ideas do you folks have?

Looking forward to it. :)

[MUCHO REEF]

I love to see a good debate and discussion like this. This is how we all mature as hobbyist through other reefers' opinions, findings and ideas.

With all due respect, I have to disagree. And just because we disagree, doesn't mean we can't be friends.

All zoos are not alike nor the same. The one common denominator that I have found with all of them is that they are extremely hardy and will adapt to most types of lighting. I can't see how the above theory of reproduction can possibly be true or consistantly true. If I and 4 other reefers did exactly what you did, do you think we would yield the same results exponentially? I would say no. Because no two system are the same. Tank variables/parameters/lighting/current etc and not the zoos themselves will determine growth and the rate of reproduction. It is impossible to say that consistantly you will have one new polyp in 3 weeks. Sometimes I get 5 in 3 weeks, other times I might get one. All things being equal, if you have a system with all parameters and conditions dialed in perfectly and consistantly, you should and could maintain steady growth, but you can't calculate growth this month based on growth last month or with other colonies or a schedule. All zoos and palys are not alike when it comes to reproduction.

Regarding food, we all know that zoos are Photosynthetic and will use lighting as their primary source of nutrient uptake. This alone will sustain them. Many years ago, before feeding zoos became so mainstream, I never once feed my zoos and I had some killer growth patterns. Feeding, in my unprofessional opinion, should be a secondary, not a primary source of nutrition. Will zoos survive without secondary ( external feeding ), Yes. Will the do slightly better by feeding them twice a week, most definitely over time. That can only be proven through physical observation, which is what I did earlier this year. I went 3 weeks without feeding and changed nothing else in my tank. Did my corals surive, yes. Did they appear healthy, yes. For the next 3 weeks, I fed a combination of Frozen Cyclop eez, ESV's Spray Dried Marine Phyto Plankton and Oyster Eggs. I focused on 5 colonies in one area as I did when I didn't fed for 3 weeks. The one thing I noticed was a healthier looking more full bodied physical appearance. Of the 5 colonies, I noticed 7 new polyps during the 3 week period without feeding. I had 13 new polyps total during the weeks I did feed. I regret not doing it multiple times to see if I could receive the same results. Now would that happen in someone else's tank, maybe, maybe not, since no two systems and their variables are the same.

I'm quoting verbatim from Eric B's book, page 187 "Zoanthus are highly dependant on their zooxanthellae -- rather than active feeding on Zooplankton- for energy"

"Many reports both in scientific and hobby literature claim that Zoanthus species do not exibit feeding responses to any prey. This is mostly true for typical zooplankton prey, but I have found that the right kind of food will elicit a standard prey-capture response"

I believe that zoos can, do and will feed, both day and night. I feed once a week during the day and once at night 3 days later. We often think that just because we don't physically see a prey-capture response, that our zoos do not actively feed. Zoos have a "SIPHONOGLYPH, or single mouth, which leads into the Gastrovascular cavity, which has vibrating cilia that assist in both feeding and water exchange within the polyp" page 177.

A mouth with a gastrovacular pouch or stomach, gives further merit to the fact that zoos can and will feed.

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I know to be consistantly true in my tank and those of my local reefmates with zoo dominated tanks is this. The factors that have yielded the best growth and expansion are strong but not overpowering alternating/random current, bright lighting, MH users with a good to high Par value, and a KH around 10, with stable and none flucuating parameters, have received moderate to above average growth/reproduction. I don't believe that secondary feeding is a must, its simply an added benefit which will be manifested by a slightly enhanced physical appearance over time.

In my opinion


3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth? POSSIBLY

4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte? I HAVE NEVER READ NOR WITNESSED IT, DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T TRUE THOUGH.

5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current? MOST DEFINITELY, ENOUGH TO WIGGLE THE POLYPS BUT NOT OVERPOWERING THEM TO THE POINT WHERE THEY WILL RETRACT.

6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed.. STATED ABOVE, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, JUST LEAVING THEM ALONE AND NOT MOVING THEM AROUND. IT WILL ONLY IRRITATE THEM AND STUNT THEIR GROWTH.

Regarding rarity and growth, I have heard and read the debate for years that rare zoos and palys grow very slow, and that is why they are rare, NOT TRUE. Zoanthids, whether common or rare, grow/reproduce at different rates. To say all the rare zoos grow very slow, and that is why they are considered rare simply isn't true. I have some very common zoos that grow at a snails pace, then again, I have some extremely rare zoos that grow like weeds. I have even had to cut my photperiod back to 7 hours to stop the growth. Rarity is based on collection and availability, not growth rate.

Sorry for the long response. And I meant no harm or disrespect to anyone's opinions.

Big Mouth Mucho

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6315866#post6315866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MUCHO REEF
I love to see a good debate and discussion like this. This is how we all mature as hobbyist through other reefers' opinions, findings and ideas.

With all due respect, I have to disagree. And just because we disagree, doesn't mean we can't be friends.

All zoos are not alike nor the same. The one common denominator that I have found with all of them is that they are extremely hardy and will adapt to most types of lighting. I can't see how the above theory of reproduction can possibly be true or consistantly true. If I and 4 other reefers did exactly what you did, do you think we would yield the same results exponentially? I would say no. Because no two system are the same. Tank variables/parameters/lighting/current etc and not the zoos themselves will determine growth and the rate of reproduction. It is impossible to say that consistantly you will have one new polyp in 3 weeks. Sometimes I get 5 in 3 weeks, other times I might get one. All things being equal, if you have a system with all parameters and conditions dialed in perfectly and consistantly, you should and could maintain steady growth, but you can't calculate growth this month based on growth last month or with other colonies or a schedule. All zoos and palys are not alike when it comes to reproduction.

Regarding food, we all know that zoos are Photosynthetic and will use lighting as their primary source of nutrient uptake. This alone will sustain them. Many years ago, before feeding zoos became so mainstream, I never once feed my zoos and I had some killer growth patterns. Feeding, in my unprofessional opinion, should be a secondary, not a primary source of nutrition. Will zoos survive without secondary ( external feeding ), Yes. Will the do slightly better by feeding them twice a week, most definitely over time. That can only be proven through physical observation, which is what I did earlier this year. I went 3 weeks without feeding and changed nothing else in my tank. Did my corals surive, yes. Did they appear healthy, yes. For the next 3 weeks, I fed a combination of Frozen Cyclop eez, ESV's Spray Dried Marine Phyto Plankton and Oyster Eggs. I focused on 5 colonies in one area as I did when I didn't fed for 3 weeks. The one thing I noticed was a healthier looking more full bodied physical appearance. Of the 5 colonies, I noticed 7 new polyps during the 3 week period without feeding. I had 13 new polyps total during the weeks I did feed. I regret not doing it multiple times to see if I could receive the same results. Now would that happen in someone else's tank, maybe, maybe not, since no two systems and their variables are the same.

I'm quoting verbatim from Eric B's book, page 187 "Zoanthus are highly dependant on their zooxanthellae -- rather than active feeding on Zooplankton- for energy"

"Many reports both in scientific and hobby literature claim that Zoanthus species do not exibit feeding responses to any prey. This is mostly true for typical zooplankton prey, but I have found that the right kind of food will elicit a standard prey-capture response"

I believe that zoos can, do and will feed, both day and night. I feed once a week during the day and once at night 3 days later. We often think that just because we don't physically see a prey-capture response, that our zoos do not actively feed. Zoos have a "SIPHONOGLYPH, or single mouth, which leads into the Gastrovascular cavity, which has vibrating cilia that assist in both feeding and water exchange within the polyp" page 177.

A mouth with a gastrovacular pouch or stomach, gives further merit to the fact that zoos can and will feed.

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I know to be consistantly true in my tank and those of my local reefmates with zoo dominated tanks is this. The factors that have yielded the best growth and expansion are strong but not overpowering alternating/random current, bright lighting, MH users with a good to high Par value, and a KH around 10, with stable and none flucuating parameters, have received moderate to above average growth/reproduction. I don't believe that secondary feeding is a must, its simply an added benefit which will be manifested by a slightly enhanced physical appearance over time.

In my opinion


3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth? POSSIBLY

4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte? I HAVE NEVER READ NOR WITNESSED IT, DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T TRUE THOUGH.

5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current? MOST DEFINITELY, ENOUGH TO WIGGLE THE POLYPS BUT NOT OVERPOWERING THEM TO THE POINT WHERE THEY WILL RETRACT.

6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed.. STATED ABOVE, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, JUST LEAVING THEM ALONE AND NOT MOVING THEM AROUND. IT WILL ONLY IRRITATE THEM AND STUNT THEIR GROWTH.

Regarding rarity and growth, I have heard and read the debate for years that rare zoos and palys grow very slow, and that is why they are rare, NOT TRUE. Zoanthids, whether common or rare, grow/reproduce at different rates. To say all the rare zoos grow very slow, and that is why they are considered rare simply isn't true. I have some very common zoos that grow at a snails pace, then again, I have some extremely rare zoos that grow like weeds. I have even had to cut my photperiod back to 7 hours to stop the growth. Rarity is based on collection and availability, not growth rate.

Sorry for the long response. And I meant no harm or disrespect to anyone's opinions.

Big Mouth Mucho

Thanks for THIS BIG AND USEFUL input...Sorry for the caps but i was totally astonished by the feedback given compared to your first reply:) A big thank to you and i agree greatly with wad you input .

Firstly i would like to say again(Quoted from above)
<< that Rarity is truely based on collection and availability, not growth rate.>>

I agree on that ..

And lastly , you need not appologise as I LOVE YOu Being Big Mouth.
:D :D

[MUCHO REEF]

Whenever we disagree, I just like to make sure that no one takes what I am saying as a cut down or that I'm being disrespectful. I just want to keep the peace and throw in my two cents.

Mooch

[giantbicycle]

Another Question which i heard before is that ,

Does Antinics Lights Really Inprove the colouration of your Zooanthids,

*Its not the viewing appearance , But its the Actual colour of the zooanthids.*

:eek2: :)

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6316167#post6316167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MUCHO REEF
Whenever we disagree, I just like to make sure that no one takes what I am saying as a cut down or that I'm being disrespectful. I just want to keep the peace and throw in my two cents.

Mooch

No worries, Its well apperciated by each & ever individual who wants to get some inputs

Reef On pal :rollface:

[tigerarmy40]

I regularly frag from the center of my colonies by adding a small peice of rubble to the center and just letting it sit, I then go in about three weeks later and just cut the rubble out. I have tried both fragging form the edge and the center and beleive that the center frags faster, of course me method of fragging is a little different being that I do not cut the frag and glue it but let it grow onto the rubble naturaly! also I have noticed that my frags at the bottom of the tank deff grow slower and that is not only due to lower lighting but the fact that the flow is much lower at the sand level in my tank! just thought id share!

[BrianPlankis]

Here is my .02

I've found three things increase the growth of zoas in my tank:

1. Leaving them alone. zoas that are glued in place, or at least not moved around a lot, seem to grow a lot faster than ones moved around.

2. Keep them in moderate current and off the sandbed. Most of my zoas seem irritated by my sandbed. When they are moved up they tend to grow faster. (could be by reduced irritation or possibly higher intensity lighting from being higher).

3. Dirtier water and the right salt. I've had to stop feeding food to my tank for over 6 months now and my zoa growth has slowed substantially. There were three changes during this time: a new salt, no feeding except phytoplankton and my lights aging. I suppose it could be any of the three, but now that I switched back to Kent salt my zoas are open a LOT more and I've seen new growth while my bulbs are still aging and I'm still only feeding phytoplankton.

A lot of speculation I know, but that is what I've observed. It will be interesting to see what happens once I have a higher nutrient level when I start feeding the tank again.

Brian

[CoralNutz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6315866#post6315866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MUCHO REEF
With all due respect, I have to disagree. And just because we disagree, doesn't mean we can't be friends.

All zoos are not alike nor the same. The one common denominator that I have found with all of them is that they are extremely hardy and will adapt to most types of lighting. I can't see how the above theory of reproduction can possibly be true or consistantly true. If I and 4 other reefers did exactly what you did, do you think we would yield the same results exponentially? I would say no. Because no two system are the same. Tank variables/parameters/lighting/current etc and not the zoos themselves will determine growth and the rate of reproduction. It is impossible to say that consistantly you will have one new polyp in 3 weeks. Sometimes I get 5 in 3 weeks, other times I might get one. All things being equal, if you have a system with all parameters and conditions dialed in perfectly and consistantly, you should and could maintain steady growth, but you can't calculate growth this month based on growth last month or with other colonies or a schedule. All zoos and palys are not alike when it comes to reproduction.


I think my point was missed. It wasn't that any zoanthid is going to follow the same growth pattern. Doesnt' matter what zoanthid, paly, sps, lps, anything really.

You could take any zoanthids/palys out there. If you had two equal chunks of 100 polyps each of the same exact zoas/palys.

Let say you take the one colony and devide it into 33, 3 polyp frags. And the other one you leave as a 100 polyp colony. Doesn't matter if they grow fast or slow, if they are int he same tank with same conditions and the same zoas, IME they will have have similar growth rates.

So, lets say however long it takes those 3 polyp frags to average 3 new polyps each. That's 100% growth. I can bet you time and time and time again, it will be faster that those 3 polyp frags will each grow 3 new polyps, than that original colonly can grow into 200 polyps sitting there. It's really about surface area and subdivision. :) Hope that makes more sense. If not I will have some diagrams soon too.

Similar techniques are used in horticulture to maximize yeilds.

There are other factors involved too and it's by far a perfect science. Things like die off are common because of the small sizes of the frags make them more delicate IME.

As far as not being able to predict the growth. IME, it's hard to predict growth when the zoas are growing in colonies. But in the last 18 months that i have been propping zoas on a regular basis, I have to say that I am pretty dead on with predicting when frags will be done. I have the zoas that I frag on a regular basis and when I sit down and make up 10, 3 polyp frags I can predict, within a couple weeks anyway, of when those frags will hit 10+ polyps. And they usually grow out pretty uniform with each other too. Some are slower, some are faster, after a few runs you can predict pretty accurately how it's going to go. Obviously there are runts from time to time. The most important thing is the glueing. That can stunt a new frags growth really bad.

Anyway, enough rambling from me. Hope the theorie makes sense, it really has nothing to do with any certain type of zoa and pretty much would apply to any coral that can be fragged. If you look at any of the large aquaculture outfits, it's no secret to them.

Obviously this is worthless to someone trying to grow out a colony in thier tank, but if we are talking polyp for polyp growth.....

[whodah]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6321155#post6321155 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
The most important thing is the glueing. That can stunt a new frags growth really bad.

can you elaborate on this a bit please? :D

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6321818#post6321818 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by whodah
can you elaborate on this a bit please? :D

I'm keen to know more about this too...and well said there.And i am looking forward to the diagrams too .Thanks:)

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6318540#post6318540 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CirolanidHunter
Here is my .02

I've found three things increase the growth of zoas in my tank:

1. Leaving them alone. zoas that are glued in place, or at least not moved around a lot, seem to grow a lot faster than ones moved around.

2. Keep them in moderate current and off the sandbed. Most of my zoas seem irritated by my sandbed. When they are moved up they tend to grow faster. (could be by reduced irritation or possibly higher intensity lighting from being higher).

3. Dirtier water and the right salt. I've had to stop feeding food to my tank for over 6 months now and my zoa growth has slowed substantially. There were three changes during this time: a new salt, no feeding except phytoplankton and my lights aging. I suppose it could be any of the three, but now that I switched back to Kent salt my zoas are open a LOT more and I've seen new growth while my bulbs are still aging and I'm still only feeding phytoplankton.

A lot of speculation I know, but that is what I've observed. It will be interesting to see what happens once I have a higher nutrient level when I start feeding the tank again.

Brian

Apperciate your input.....Hope More to come :lol:

[CoralNutz]

When you glue the frags onto the plugs, discs or live rock rubble it is important to use just the right amount of glue. Too little and the frag won’t hold tight, and will probably blow away easily considering you will want to keep the newly cut frags in some moderate flow for a week or so while they recover. Too much glue and the glue will ooze out from the bottom sides of the new frag. When this happens it is going to slow down the new growth a lot. You want just enough glue to hold it down, but not oozing out the sides. IME, what works best is to make a little pile of super glue gel onto a piece of paper or cardboard and then I use a toothpick to apply the glue to the plug. Also, it is a good idea to keep a bowl of tank water handy to dip the frags into RIGHT AWAY after you glue them on. The super glue gel heats up a lot when it is drying/curing. You don’t have to leave them under water, just sort of a flash curing. Be careful though as the glue will still not be dry at this point, and can frags can still fall off or moved if bumped.

Ideally what you want is just like a drop of super glue gell underneath the middle of the frag and then you want the flesh around the base of the frag to be in direct contact with the plug/disc without glue between it and the plug. This is kind of hard to explain without pictures, but basically you want to avoid using so much glue that it oozes out the sides of the bottom of the frag. Another thing that can happen is accidentally getting glue on the upper portions of the polyps. When this happens there isn’t much you can do except try to wipe it off and hope it doesn’t kill the polyp.

It’s not the easiest to make such small frags and have a high percentage of survival. When I first started doing this I would lose more than 50% of the new frags until I perfected my methods. Now I am consistently up to around 85%. It’s a lot like surgery. I also recommend wearing eye protection and rubber gloves due to the possibility of toxins squirting you in the eye.

Also, the exacto blades that you can get at craft stores work much better than the standard razer blades for me. Whatever you have an easier time holding is what I would recommend. Just make sure that you use clean blades every fragging session and to rinse your tools in freshwater when done to avoid getting rust on them, even stainless steel tools will rust eventually, so I like to keep them clean.

Another thing I try to do is time my fragging events with carbon changes, and also I like to get them done right before I shut the lights out for the night. I have noticed that I have better results when they go into the dark right after being sliced up.

Anyway, I think my boss would like it if I get back to work. These methods may not work for everyone but they have been working for me with great success for well over a year now on a consistent basis. Hopefully some of the others with dedicated prop/frag tanks that do this often can chime in on what has worked and what hasn’t worked for them.

PS> I will try to get some diagrams and other things done for my website over the holiday weekend and hopefully that will help with my explanations.

Jeremy :D

[whodah]

interesting... i never put words to it, but i try to keep my gluing technique similar in nature when doing individual polyps or loose polyps. i still probably over-glue based on your description though...

however, i will say that i typically try and avoid gluing direct polyps. when i frag, i use a [ur]=http://www.drinstruments.com/xq/ASP/pid.80/cat.20/qx/product.htm]scalpel[/url] and kind of scrape underneath the first 'layer' of the rock. i hate breaking the rock as you can obviously only do this so many times until you're left w/ a tiny rock, heh!

i use that exact scalpel there because they are really strong and you can put a lot of pressure on them when doing this. they are sharp, however i also have several other tools from that place including a more exacto-blade style scalpel. it is much more fragile, but much more sharp for cutting mat/polyps.

but in doing this, i'm left w/ the zoa still in tact w/ 'rubble' and then glue down the rubble. thus no superglue comes in contact w/ the polyps at all.

however, i tell you that to ask you this: utilizing that technique, do you think one would still get the 'explosive frag growth rate' you were talking about? i.e. you are gluing 3 loose polyps down w/ their skin touching the frag plug as much as possible. i'm gluing down 3 'non-loose' polyps in a similar manner.

thoughts?

[Snakebyt]

i have a couple of single polyps that i want to frag out of the middle of a colony. If i get them off and they survive, i will mount them and try to keep track of there progress

here are the ones i want to frag, they are fire and ice, but the centers are turning bright orange, matching the skirt. the colors are a bit off in this pic, but you get the idea

http://www.snakebyt.com/orangefireice.jpg

[CoralNutz]

Great point Who Dah.... When I frag zoas, typically I am taking them off of acrylic or tile.

When fragging polyps off of live rock, It is very important that you at least try to shave some of the rock with it like WhoDah suggests.

I have been working on a new method the past few months making very thin discs with plumbers putty. That way you can easly cut through the polyps and through the hardened putty like hot butter. That way you can glue the new frags down and not have any glue touching the actual polyp. I have been experimenting with using just plain plumbers putty discs as well as discs that I have been "coating" with aragonite. After using the acrylic and tile for a long time. I am starting to believe, and in the process of trying to confirm, that zoas actually grow faster when they are in direct contact with aragonice, coral skelotans or other calcium based material. We will see how that works.

As far as the "explosive frag growth rate". It is key that you realize this is relative. If you slow growing zoas, they are going to grow slow, that's all there is too it. However regardless of how fast they grow IME the method that I am talking about works the same.

The statement about being in 4 different peoples tanks and different zoas and different parameters and such, is missing my point all together. It's all relative. We are talking about the same zoas, same tank, same parameters, same flow.... What way are those particular zoas going to grow the fastest.

So, to answer your last question, yes, it wouldn't matter if you are gluing down loose polyps vs. a few polyps that have a thin layer of rock below it. However, it is VERY important that that it's a think layer and not like a marble size chunk. You have to consider that the polyps are going to grow quicker if they can just grow outward attatching to the plug vs. having to first grow the mat down to the plug before it starts to attach.

I am going to hold off on any more explinations or discriptions until I get at least some pictures. I feel like I am not explaining this good enough to understand easily.

-Jeremy

[Mrdillpickle]

Great thread. I am always interested in new techniques.

Here is the technique I use to grow colonies of zoanthids. I cut several polyps, rock and all, out of my colonies. I do this using tile cutters (pliers used for snapping ceramic tiles). I look for high spots on my rock. I can cut right under the polyps and scrape off a layer of rock. I then use super glue gel to glue the frag to a piece of live rock. I glue 3-4 frags (3-10 polyps each) to the rock, spaced out evenly. The frags then fill in the spaces.

Grow Pattern
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/106346PIC.JPG

I found this much quicker to grow a new colony, then waiting for a single frag to grow from the middle out. In a four month period I grew 12 new 50-100 polyp colonies from frags taken off my two mother colonies. The mother colonies had about 300 polyps each and I randomly removed about half the polyps off each parent. I not only grew the new children colonies, but the parents fully filled back in. The only draw back is, every time I do this, the parent colonies get slightly smaller (do to the removal of the rock). Knowing this, I am also growing out a new, much larger, mother colony. I got mint zoa's growing out of my .....

New Colony
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/106346mint_green_zoos.jpg

Jason

[tekknoschtev]

Wow. Such great information being thrown around here. I hope that I can add to it as well as others.

First, answering the questions:

2: It it true that placing them high up nearning the MH will promote fast growth as well as spreading?
Our zoanthids seem to grow faster under the MH lighting in our 150, than under PC in our 40gal tank. Thats not to say the growth rate is poor in the frag tank, just not the same as the 150. Can I prove that lighting alone is the difference? No. We have better flow, skimming, fuge, pretty much everything on the 150. I've also grown zoas under NO flourescents just to see if I could, and their growth was terrible, however, not non-existent. Over the course of about 2 months, there were a few new polyps spreading out here and there. Color sucked but there was growth.

3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth?
As with whats been stated before, its possible. I find that in the 150, which gets fed (fish) more often than the frag tank (corals only) that the zoanthids grow much faster. Again, this is far from a scientific conclusion.

4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte?
I currently dont have enough larger colonies to see whether or not, but read below on my "time" factor ideas. I do however, see logic, and some what in practice that multiple little frags produce an overall larger colony faster, however, I dont have per-polyp rates to justify my opinion - just logic. Somewhat the same theory as tinier bubbles in a skimmer have more surface area. In this case, there is a greater perimeter for the zoas to grow out on each side, rather than merely on the edge of a colony.

5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current?
I find that having exactly the most flow you can possibly have over a particular colony of zoanthids without having them react (ie. close up) produces the highest growth rates. Perhaps its because it keeps nuisance creatures (hermits) from wandering over them, or it prevents detrius from settling, or it just keeps the energy flowing in them and helps them spread. It also may be a fight or flight response, and the high flow is causing them to "move on" but in the process they leave behind the predecesors. I havent taken my zoanthids to the psychiatrist, so who knows. We have a colony of zoanthids that absolutely loves the output of our Seio 2600. It sits about 18" from the output of a Seio 2600 (which despire the "dispersed flow" still has a powerful punch at that distance, hell, it has enough force to ricochet off the opposite side of the 150, which is 6' long, and noticeably have some bounce back.) and they are spreading pretty quickly. I have also noticed that the polyp size itself has increased with the added flow. It may or may not be related.

6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed..
Heres my "time" factor theory. As mentioned above, I believe that moving a frag/colony of zoanthids elicits a "reset" function of sorts. I've noticed the best growth rates on my zoanthids after leaving them alone for extended periods of time. Damn, its a good thing I was at college during the semester, because I like messing with things in the tank. At any rate - this would seem to contradict with the fragging to produce a "colony" faster. I find, however, that if I frag a colony of zoanthids, it seems to start popping off new polyps much faster than the frag (which undoubetedly endured more stress during the fragging process). I've used several different fragging techniques as well, and noticed this during all of them. One technique is to scrape at the rock a bit to get the polyps loose. This seems the least stressful on the zoas IF you can get into the rock. Often times, I end up tearing at the base of the zoas - not good. I've also used the technique where a colony overgrows onto rubble (or a frag plug in my case, intentionally placed near the colony), and just busting the rock apart (which is my least favorite method).

An experience: Zoanthid: Wildfire zoas

This was the first colony/frag I actually, purposely, counted the number of polyps and kept a mental and written note as to the growth rate. I purchased a bunch of 2 and 3 polyp frags of these zoas. I placed 11 polyps (three 3 polyp frags, and one 2 polyp frag) onto a single frag plug. Inside of a month, that 11 polyps had nearly doubled into 20 polyps. Now, about 3 months later, I have taken two frags of it, each with about 10-15 polyps each (probably 2/3 of the polyps of each frag are little buds around one or two larger polyps) and the colony is now well over 50 polyps. I use generalities, because I dont have the time or patience to count each individual polyp. But this colony has seemed to follow the time factor theory, as I didnt mess with it after it was glued down until recently when I pulled the frags off. I also had a single polyp frag of these zoas on a frag plug and now - about 4 months later - there are at least 10 polyps. I wish I had monitored it closer, however being away from the tanks makes it difficult.

Note: not all of my zoas grow that fast. I have a few zoas that prefer to pop off only a few babies from time to time.

For what its worth - I dont regularly monitor anything beyond nitrates, pH, and SG. Our water changes have been less than regular on both the 150 and the 40. But whenever I'm home I try to get a decent water change in on the tanks.

[giantbicycle]

Wow , I was shocked and indeed was Greated with lots of Wonderful response in this discussion, I would really like to thank eveyone for participating actively in this thread.Exp, Thoes who are typing at work (Jeremy) :p and spending tiime Explaning to make us understand, and A pic,diagram really Helps a million .:D

This is an ongoing discussion so i would like to continue encouraging eveyone to participate in it..

Start Observing Zooanthids today and Share it with us. I will be observing mine for another few days or so b4 sharing ...


Dont Stop....:)

Cheers: Edwan:p

[giantbicycle]

HMm, it seems that i presume that the BEST way of the (Extreme Growth ratre ) is by fragging? as this topic is being discussed mainly...

Wad about the others Ways, like wad the other reefer have mention ?:)

[MUCHO REEF]

Great info CoralNutz.

Mucho

[BrianPlankis]

I have been tracking actual counts of polyps of some of my zoas. I'll try to remember to look at my notes tonight to see. Some grow like crazy, others haven't put out a new polyp in 3 months!

Brian

[giantbicycle]

As observations, i Think i need to observe them over a number of colonies , but not just a few frags thou.

Seems like dirty water is one of the point too for the sprut of growth as it is a nutrients loaded water, Am i right?

[jay24k]

It should also be noted when you frag a polyp, try to do it as quick as possible. Some polyps while they look huge will shrink down fast if you don't slice through it as fast as you can. I fragged my PPE for a buddy and the stalk was sort of thick. As soon as that first cut was made, it shrunk by half.

My fragging has yielded different results. What I do is this:
Place the colony out of water and do a quick slice on the base of the polyp. Dab the bottom dry. Get a nice dry rock and put a little dab of glue. I make sure the entire base of the polyp is in glue but don't overdo it. I let it sit for about 20 seconds and then place it in a bowl of saltwater for about 5 minutes. I then place it in my tank in a low spot with decent flow. I haven't lost one frag yet.

I've never felt superglue heat up though when I glue my fingers down. What is the degree difference it causes?

[giantbicycle]

hey, i think we cant feel the tempt differences as the zooanthids can feel it..think its slight thou, but can burnt or shocked the zoos..Its just like calcium grains or salt grains which is warm to the touch.:D

[giantbicycle]

It seems that most of the zoo's reefer here uses fragging as the method to sprut the growth rate :p

I had a friend who has frags of zoos turning into colonies at a fast rate which causes it to be a nuisences. and not only one of them happen this maner...Its the whole tank of zoos growing this way..and the idea here is that , he did not even frag ...

so i wont agree that fragging is the only Cause of speeding zoos growth rates.

:strooper:

[CoralNutz]

I don't really know, not a Dr. of any sorts. But I would think that unless something is warmer than your body temp (98.something degrees) that it wouldn't really "feel warm".... I don't know though. Just an idea that I was thinking.

[CoralNutz]

Edwan.... I think it's not apples and apples.. Subdividing colonies (fragging them) to get a highter over all polyp/month count really is worthless unless your goal is to grow lots of frags for trading or selling. If you have a display tank with, which is what most are interested in, it's a whole different topic really. (wich was the original topic I think, sorry if I hijacked at all ;) )

I think there are other aspects to look at too. Verticle growth rate vs. horizontal growth rate? If the zoas are growing up a rock at a verticle angle vs. if they are growing on a flat horizontal outward pattern. How will that effect growth?

Another variable that I can see making a big difference is the surface of the rock that you are trying to get them to grow accros. I would think that if the mat had to grow across a rock that was full of pits and was very pourus, it might take longer to grow across than it would if was on a flat, smooth surface. Just thinking that the zoanthids would have to generate more tissue to fill in the pourus cracks and whatnot. Again, this isn't even something I have tried or looked into. Just some other ideas I am tossing around.

Another thing a couple other coral farmers and I have talked about was light cycles. Someone is trying this now, can't remember who, and I also plan on doing some experimenting once I get a more controlled system that will be able to accomodate this. The thought is, will zoas grow faster if they have say like instead of 1, 12:12 light cycel per day. They would have a 6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off light cycle every day. Don't know if it will do anything, just something that a couple of us thinks might lead to something. I have a hunch that it's going to improve growth rates a lot. It's just a hunch though, nothing to back that up. That experiment is TOP on my list of things to do, but I want to have a more controlled environement before I even start so I can come closer to concluding that they new growth is due to light cycles rather than some other parameter that I dind't have enough controll over. I think this is going to have to be at least 6 months min. project, probably a full year, before I would be able to have enough growth and data to actuallly get some good conclusions.

anyway, enough rambling again... need to get some work done.

[BradL.]

During the first few months colonies do not grow very fast. After a period of about six months I notice that the individual Zoanthids start to reproduce and the colony starts to spread.

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6337266#post6337266 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
Edwan.... I think it's not apples and apples.. Subdividing colonies (fragging them) to get a highter over all polyp/month count really is worthless unless your goal is to grow lots of frags for trading or selling. If you have a display tank with, which is what most are interested in, it's a whole different topic really. (wich was the original topic I think, sorry if I hijacked at all ;) )

I think there are other aspects to look at too. Verticle growth rate vs. horizontal growth rate? If the zoas are growing up a rock at a verticle angle vs. if they are growing on a flat horizontal outward pattern. How will that effect growth?

Another variable that I can see making a big difference is the surface of the rock that you are trying to get them to grow accros. I would think that if the mat had to grow across a rock that was full of pits and was very pourus, it might take longer to grow across than it would if was on a flat, smooth surface. Just thinking that the zoanthids would have to generate more tissue to fill in the pourus cracks and whatnot. Again, this isn't even something I have tried or looked into. Just some other ideas I am tossing around.

Another thing a couple other coral farmers and I have talked about was light cycles. Someone is trying this now, can't remember who, and I also plan on doing some experimenting once I get a more controlled system that will be able to accomodate this. The thought is, will zoas grow faster if they have say like instead of 1, 12:12 light cycel per day. They would have a 6 on, 6 off, 6 on, 6 off light cycle every day. Don't know if it will do anything, just something that a couple of us thinks might lead to something. I have a hunch that it's going to improve growth rates a lot. It's just a hunch though, nothing to back that up. That experiment is TOP on my list of things to do, but I want to have a more controlled environement before I even start so I can come closer to concluding that they new growth is due to light cycles rather than some other parameter that I dind't have enough controll over. I think this is going to have to be at least 6 months min. project, probably a full year, before I would be able to have enough growth and data to actuallly get some good conclusions.

anyway, enough rambling again... need to get some work done.

Yes ,jeremy, :)

I will be awaiting more and looking into more inputs from you to come after you have conclude about the light cycle changes which affect the growth rates , do let me know as i am keen to grow my frags fast thou....


Keep us updated if there is any slightest info sighted...:)

[tangey]

I dont know if this will help or not but i got a frag of zoas 3 months ago. the first month i recorded 3 polyps the next month6. now in december i am seeing a new zoa pop up almost everyday. These are under PC's in my 55 gallon tank.

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6342109#post6342109 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tangey
I dont know if this will help or not but i got a frag of zoas 3 months ago. the first month i recorded 3 polyps the next month6. now in december i am seeing a new zoa pop up almost everyday. These are under PC's in my 55 gallon tank. Thanks for the input.keep further track of it :D

[giantbicycle]

Any Latest Input for sharing???



Wad about those who have Prop tank growing Zoos ??

Pls share..Thanks

[Gili]

Good stuff here - thought id give my 50c:

I didnt witness any zoa or paly growth [except for those yellow polyps which are going nuts], in my tank until i started feeding regularly.. I started feeding twice a week sbout month ago and the palys towards the top [which were bleached terribly as hitchhikers] have now coloured up alot more and have added about 30%-40% to their colony. A couple of other palys in the middle have gone from 2 to 6 in about a month too. My zoas seem to grow slower but also, in the last month have seemed to jump into action with regular feeding, with a couple of copper coloured zoas becoming 4 [1 seemed to dissapear before they split though..] and my green and blue zoas have little ones appearing more visibly towards the edge of the colony. I do think that light paid the most part in it but i was surprised that growth only seemed to start upon feeding.. The tank is approx 4mths old

[giantbicycle]

Thanks GIlI for the Input.... Yes, do agree that strong light is the fuel for zooanthids... exp low Kelvin lugths which are high in PAR.

[CoralNutz]

I don't kow about too strong of light. I have raised the lights off my frag tanks a few more inches and I'll have to wait to see if I see any difference. They do open up nicer now though.

[Cellenzweig]

That can only be proven through physical observation, which is what I did earlier this year. I went 3 weeks without feeding and changed nothing else in my tank. Did my corals surive, yes. Did they appear healthy, yes. For the next 3 weeks, I fed a combination of Frozen Cyclop eez, ESV's Spray Dried Marine Phyto Plankton and Oyster Eggs. I focused on 5 colonies in one area as I did when I didn't fed for 3 weeks. The one thing I noticed was a healthier looking more full bodied physical appearance. Of the 5 colonies, I noticed 7 new polyps during the 3 week period without feeding. I had 13 new polyps total during the weeks I did feed. A couple companies in Canada (Canadian Reef which no longer exists and Reef Crew) did an experiment on the growth rates of various corals in fed vs non-fed tanks. They found that zoanthids didn't multiply as fast in the fed tank, but they did look much healthier. These results may not be perfect, as there are other factors to take into account (ie fed tank has some light blocked by suspended food.), but I would think they have some relevance.

If anyone is interested in their results, they are available here:
http://www.reefcrew.bionomicsolutions.com/Assets/Html/Research/Canadian_Reef/introduction.htm

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6437654#post6437654 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
I don't kow about too strong of light. I have raised the lights off my frag tanks a few more inches and I'll have to wait to see if I see any difference. They do open up nicer now though.

Any updates CoralNutz

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6437882#post6437882 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cellenzweig
A couple companies in Canada (Canadian Reef which no longer exists and Reef Crew) did an experiment on the growth rates of various corals in fed vs non-fed tanks. They found that zoanthids didn't multiply as fast in the fed tank, but they did look much healthier. These results may not be perfect, as there are other factors to take into account (ie fed tank has some light blocked by suspended food.), but I would think they have some relevance.

If anyone is interested in their results, they are available here:
http://www.reefcrew.bionomicsolutions.com/Assets/Html/Research/Canadian_Reef/introduction.htm

This is a very resourceful information...Thanks so much for sharing... agree, but wont it be a different case in a heavily fed tank with clear water powered by OZone? :D

[A.G]

IME, zonthids and mushrooms grow super fast/big when you have some nutrients in the water(like No3).

I used to have 2 tanks one with a skimmer and the other has no skimmer, both were the same size with the same light which consist of 150 10k MH. The zoos and mushrooms grew super fast from few pieces to a full rock coverd with zoos and I have noticed that thier size doubled. The Zoos in the other tank with the skimmer grew but nothing compared to the skimmerless tank.
This observation was seen in lots of tanks and not only mine.Also, the skimmerless tank could not support any sps life in it.

Anyway that was based on my observations. Others may have different results.

A.G

[giantbicycle]

Thanks for that.....

I agree that they need nutrient ladden water but i disagree at this point as there are lots of ppl who are full fledge sps keepers keeping and growing them and some even complain that they are growing at a high speed as such as a weed..


so there are some other factors affecting it..and of cous, individual pieces have diff growth rate

Cheers

[gflat65]

Okay. I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread (should have started reading it when it started...), but here is what I have observed in specific instances.

Most of the zoas I've had have required an acclimation period before I see much growth. A few have doubled in size in a matter of weeks after being introduced, but those seem to be in the minority. Once they start to grow, they take off (talking mostly about zoanthus sp.). Escape size is something that I've read up on in terms of sps, but I think it can used in zoa discussions, too. Essentially, (sps) frags tned to grow at higher rates than the mother colony (due mainly to the needs of a large colony compared to the needs of a smaller frag). Survival says to grow when they are smaller as self preservation.

I want to share something I've observed over the last month and find interesting. I traded for a four polyp frag (I misstated this in the other thread on PPE-I had four polyps not three...) about four months ago. On Jan 7th, I cut one polyp off to trade for a zoa frag. When I pulled the four polyp frag, I looked it over pretty good and didn't see any extra polyps growing. two weeks after cutting the single polyp, I had three new polyps pop up. It is possible that I might have overlooked one of the extra polyps when I cut the frag, but highly unlikely that I would have missed all three. It did nothing for four months, then seemingly immediately after cutting the single polyp off, it doubled in size (three polyps to six). I'm going to keep watching it and see what it does. I have another single polyp trade set up for latter this month, so I am going to document again how many there are when I cut it and then check back in a few weeks to see if the numbers have multiplied. If it keeps increasing at even a similar rate, I may have a bunch of single polyp frags floating around;). If it happens a third time with no other changes, I'm going to call it a working theory:).

Whodah-hadn't heard the words differential equation in years. Bad memories;).

[Reef Junkie]

Great observation gflat.
Our corals are very similar to plants when it comes to growth.
When you prune a tree, it promotes growth. Corals seem to react in the same manner, but not always. Sometimes cut corals can get in infection and die.

I have a frag of Eagle Eyes that grows like a weed. I also frag them every other month.

Great thread!:D

Had to throw in some eye candy... These grow so darn well when I make frags!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/reefphd/BlueSunshineFeb.jpg

[DEEC77]

I'm certainly no expert but I can give you my observations from the standpoint of growth in the main tank (no fragging). First I'm a firm believer in the place it and leave it alone theory having lost some prized frags by fiddling with them to much. High nutrients in the water which can be obtain by feeding or general maintance ie stirring things up a little -blowing debris from the the rocks and such. I have seen both work in my tank. I've also notice that when i switch to MH's over PC's i got better growth and colors. I also notice that adding calcium once a week with top off has promoted growth. These are the only changes that I've made to my system over the past 2 years that have had an impact that I've notice to help with growth. As I said before I'm no expert by any means but this is what works in my tank- I also beleive that everyones systems are totally different and what works for me may not necessarily work for others.

~Dee~

[21Reefman]

Now this, is a good discussion. Great info shared by all!!
Thanks:)

[CoralNutz]

Ok, time for some seriously scientific reasearch Bill.... Just frag that rock right along this line, then I'll pm you my address. And we'll see how they gow in my tanks for a while, then I'll report back after a couple months. :lol:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61/coralnutz/junk%20folder/BlueSunshineFeb_fragline.jpg

[Reef Junkie]

Coralnutz, they're yours.:)
We still on for a trade when the weather gets warmer?

How about this, I'll frag them now and whatever grows from it is yours, ok? Plus I'll be sure to take even more pic of the colony over time.;)

[CoralNutz]

Sounds like a plan... :thumbsup:

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6697590#post6697590 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
Okay. I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread (should have started reading it when it started...), but here is what I have observed in specific instances.

Most of the zoas I've had have required an acclimation period before I see much growth. A few have doubled in size in a matter of weeks after being introduced, but those seem to be in the minority. Once they start to grow, they take off (talking mostly about zoanthus sp.). Escape size is something that I've read up on in terms of sps, but I think it can used in zoa discussions, too. Essentially, (sps) frags tned to grow at higher rates than the mother colony (due mainly to the needs of a large colony compared to the needs of a smaller frag). Survival says to grow when they are smaller as self preservation.

I want to share something I've observed over the last month and find interesting. I traded for a four polyp frag (I misstated this in the other thread on PPE-I had four polyps not three...) about four months ago. On Jan 7th, I cut one polyp off to trade for a zoa frag. When I pulled the four polyp frag, I looked it over pretty good and didn't see any extra polyps growing. two weeks after cutting the single polyp, I had three new polyps pop up. It is possible that I might have overlooked one of the extra polyps when I cut the frag, but highly unlikely that I would have missed all three. It did nothing for four months, then seemingly immediately after cutting the single polyp off, it doubled in size (three polyps to six). I'm going to keep watching it and see what it does. I have another single polyp trade set up for latter this month, so I am going to document again how many there are when I cut it and then check back in a few weeks to see if the numbers have multiplied. If it keeps increasing at even a similar rate, I may have a bunch of single polyp frags floating around;). If it happens a third time with no other changes, I'm going to call it a working theory:).

Whodah-hadn't heard the words differential equation in years. Bad memories;).


Sweet....>Get back to us with your further Findings....It will be interesting..

Thanks gflat :D

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6704802#post6704802 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
Ok, time for some seriously scientific reasearch Bill.... Just frag that rock right along this line, then I'll pm you my address. And we'll see how they gow in my tanks for a while, then I'll report back after a couple months. :lol:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61/coralnutz/junk%20folder/BlueSunshineFeb_fragline.jpg

CoralNutz.....I will too be waiting for your great findings in no time...Do update us..Thanks and thats an AWesome Piece..

:) :) :) :)

[giantbicycle]

Thanks Guys for all the well Observations made...Keep the research coming in and we will soon find a theroy which is Proven ....

I would be doing mine as soon as my new Tank is up..

Great job....

[Dewey115]

Well I will firstly admit I haven't yet read this whole thread, I know shame shame... anyway I felt like I had to throw in my 2 cents (and sorry if anything I mention was already stated).

I feel much of this (these) questions are far to variable and I dont really see the chance of anything concrete coming out of this, BUT there is more than enough general information to make a good run for it, so here is mine...

I think there are many underlying ideas that are overlooked or misunderstood and those just add to the confusion. Like coloration for example. While it is an OK general indication of how happy and healthy something is in that environment, first priority of living things is to ensure that the individual and the species as a whole continues on. If a polyp could think, then it would chose to live, thrive, and reproduce over having the brightest colors possible. For the sake of growth rates I dont think color really has any place in this discussion because the two are seperate issues entirely (that doesn't mean I think we should refrain from talking about coloration, just that it plays a very minor/if any part in the growth of our colonies. Also all photosynthetic corals have symbiotic dynoflagellates called zooxanthellae that use light energy and convert it to chemical energy that the coral can use. There is not one type of zooxanthellae but many different species (and many many more subspecies) and each has its own strengths and weaknesses. These dynoflaggellates can be free swimming and coral can take these from the water and incorperate them into their own tissue where the zooxanthellae go to work making energy for the corals. When we see a coral bleach it has expelled the zooxanthellae from its tissue in hopes of gaining a new better suited type to replace the old. Now what this should tell us is that different colonies of zoanthus could have many different types of zoanthellae being used and thus would have different rates of growth and prefer different temps, lights, etc... Even people with the same exact "kind" of zoanthids (say Dragon Eyes) could have different zooxanthellae inside and see very different results in the same environments... I dont see there being any set way(s) of always increasing growth rates until we can better understand how exactly the polyps feed and the pros/cons of the different zooxanthellae available and how to improve conditions based on that information.

Now at the heart of this question (improved growth) there is one main universal idea to consider. The vast majority of living things have a list of "priorities" so to speak when deciding on what to expend energy on. Firstly and most importantly would be the survival of the individual (excluding a few instances when an animal neglects its own well being for the sake of its offspring, or an animal that uses the last of its energy to make one large spawning event, but these are more the exception and neither apply to this situation). If the animal is barely hanging on to life it doesn't make much sense to expend critical energy on being more colorful or growing larger for example when the polyp would just end up dying. Staying alive it top of the list and obviously there needs to be enough energy to sustain life before we can talk about growth. When the individual is healthy and thriving, then it moves on to maturing/healing... If there is damage somewhere (non life threatening) then the polyp will expend energy on repairing itself next. Finally when the individual is strong, healthy, mature, and in good condition, then it next looks to reproduction (either sexual or asexual). Following these general ideas the way to get the best growth would be having healthy thriving colonies and enough "extra" energy available to promote reproduction. The first part would require good tank conditions and nothing really bothering or injuring the zoanthids. Secondly you need as much food as possible for them (any animal really if you want good reproduction rates). Until we know how exactly the polyps feed and what they need in the way of nutrition, the best conditions for the zooxantellae, etc... I dont think we will see many concrete answers.

Much of my rambling is general biology and not specific just to zoanthus or even marine animals for that matter. We buy and trade for these animals because they interest us or they are colorful and pretty, but these animals exist because they are good at surviving and they are very good at it. To find your answers it is usually best to "think" like the animal, not like the guardian. If you want the best growth rates then either try as much as you can to see what works for YOUR tank or do the experiments and research to actually be able to answer these questions. We need alot more people experimenting and trying new things so we can actually have something concrete to offer instead of suggestions and "this is what worked for me".

Also a last little note is that if you want maximum growth rates then you need to take outter surface area into consideration. The more surface area that is able to "grow" then the more opportunity for additional polyps to be added. Here is a example to explain what I mean. If you have two identical colonies of zoanthids that are 2 inces by 2 inches square (same number of polyps). One of those you leave as a 2" x 2" square (colony A) and the other you divide up into 4 equal 1 x 1 inch squares (colonies B). Colony A has 8" of total outside growing room to expand and grow, but Colonies B has a total of 16" of outside growing room because there is alot less of the colony being "landlocked" and thus unable to really bud into new polyps. Now this does not take into consideration that Colonies B will need some time to heal and recover, but much of the time IME the increased growth area will allow better growth in the long run despite the relatively short delay for healing and recovery.

Thanks for reading my rambling, good luck to all of you in all you do, and hopefully many of us can get some new ideas and see some better growth in the future.

Rick

[giantbicycle]

Well said Rick

Thanks for the 2 cents:D

[Snakebyt]

some very good points and interesting thoughts in this thread..

[giantbicycle]

Its been 2months already since the start of the Research.Is there any new findings we can conclude from it? :rollface:

[ficklefins]

I second the request for updates! :D

[tmplge]

Just a bump. GREAT discussion! I love it guys. I hope everyone gets a chance to read and learn, i know i have.

[ScotchMaster]

Wow! Awesome thread! I think Im going to start doing some research on this....Time to get the fragging started

[northbay-reefer]

1: Which is the best way to Make Zooanthids Spread Rapidly (Fastest)? I think water quality, lighting, and water movement

2: IS it True that Placing them High up nearning to the MH will promote fast growth as well as spreading? .....for the most part in my own experience, also the color will be more intense. Lower light tend to make the zoas stretch longer.

3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth? I have not experience this. But since we feed the fish inside our tank we are feeding the Zoas indirectly.

4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte? Yes it does since it has more room to spread out and grow in different directions

5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current? yes, current is very important

6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed.. keeping it pest free.

[giantbicycle]

hEy tmplge & ScotchMaster

Thanks guys for comenting on this thread,Great that it had been resourceful to u guys..

next

DO Start the research... :)

and if u find something abt the growth patterns of zoas, dont hesitate to let us know abt it :)

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7378423#post7378423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by northbay-reefer
1: Which is the best way to Make Zooanthids Spread Rapidly (Fastest)? I think water quality, lighting, and water movement

2: IS it True that Placing them High up nearning to the MH will promote fast growth as well as spreading? .....for the most part in my own experience, also the color will be more intense. Lower light tend to make the zoas stretch longer.

3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth? I have not experience this. But since we feed the fish inside our tank we are feeding the Zoas indirectly.

4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rarte? Yes it does since it has more room to spread out and grow in different directions

5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current? yes, current is very important

6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed.. keeping it pest free.

Hey dude...Thats a awesome reply and fidings based on your experienced...

With this, i will try out if what proven to u works on me. :D

Thanks for the input :rollface:

[gflat65]

I cut another PPE polyp for a trade a week ago or so to test my theory. The last time I cut a single polyp, I had four polyps before cutting. Two weeks later, I had six polyps (put on three news on quickly after removing one). I had seven plus a nub (which is now open) when I cut the last one last weekend. I'm hoping to see the benefit I saw last time... These things started as four polyps over a year ago, if that gives any idea for how slow they are growing for me. My others grow very quickly, though...

[giantbicycle]

This is one of the prooves we can conclude for the part which states: Fragging will increase growth rartes.

[giantbicycle]

New findings,...

It is true to my findings that moderate flow of constant random current acting on the colony of zoothids will get them to spread faster over time.but over current might result in stress and causing them not to open.

[jasert39]

this is a great thread...especially for someone starting a zoo dominated tank.

Giantbicyle...by constant random current, Do you mean powerheads on a wavemaker? "constant random" has me a bit confused. lol.

I have just increased the flow in my tank and added a wavemaker. Now I am trying to get the positioning of the new powerheads in the right spots. Seems like somespot they are to overpowering other might not be enough flow. anyway, I will be flowing along closely to this thread.

[silversnake]

I bought a polyp rock with about a 100 polyps I dont know if they are zoos or palys but they are tan with green centers. They absolutely gorge themselves on frozen brine shrimp when i feed to the tank. After only one month they are multiplying and getting bigger.

[phil121]

This is a great thread!! Anybody with zoo tanks have any thoughts as to how different types of water flow effect growth/growth patterns? Linear or random (switching on/off powerheads) or powerheads that rotate (powersweep)? Does using wavemakers (Red Sea or whatever) increase growth/health?

Keep up the good discussion.

[Reef Junkie]

Alternating waterflow seems to have the most positive effect on all coral growth. Strong to weak, like a natural sea, ebb and flow.

Wavebox by Tunze is the best application I have ever seen to accomplish that. Now I just need to rob someone of theirs or come up with $500...:rolleyes:

[The Beaut]

As you know most Zoas are found near the ocean surface, therefore changes in flow can only be beneficial to them in an aquarium.
Northbay-reefer, i agree with what you said. Almost all my zoas are at the top of my tank and are growing at an alarming rate. the only ones that i think prefer less light are blues.
I am testing a frag of 4 pink polyps. After 2 weeks it is at 8, we will see if this growth continues.

[The Beaut]

Beforehttp://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/1228323.JPG
Now after 1yr
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122832tank1.JPG

[jason9jay]

those orange rics are huge!

[FLIPbmw]

To get polyps to spread over a bare rock quickly, it would be best to place a few polyps every x distance from one another. This gives the polyps room to grow and they can grow in any direction they want (360*).

If polyps are bunched up together in a close group, only the outer ring will spread leaving the inner polyps to do nothing since the space is already taken up.

Each solo polyp can grow in any direction, 2 polyps together will only limit their growth to half of the area (ie; the polyp cant grow ontop of its neighbor).

When I started fragging (Some time in march), I noticed that my frag with dense heads didn't spread as much as the 4-5 polyps that i glued on seperately to rock. The head count was pretty close, but the area didn't get bigger with the dense frag.


As long as the tissue can spread over an area quickly, new polyps will eventually grow. I believe this is a propagation technique used by people. Place the frags infront of a powerhead, the polyps will close up but with the force of the current, their tissue will follow and slowly expand. Of course you can't enjoy the polyps, but they will grow extremely fast.

[jessiesgrrl]

Bump for Vinny

Laurie

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7634512#post7634512 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasert39
this is a great thread...especially for someone starting a zoo dominated tank.

Giantbicyle...by constant random current, Do you mean powerheads on a wavemaker? "constant random" has me a bit confused. lol.

I have just increased the flow in my tank and added a wavemaker. Now I am trying to get the positioning of the new powerheads in the right spots. Seems like somespot they are to overpowering other might not be enough flow. anyway, I will be flowing along closely to this thread.

Dude, as what i think , i observe that wave current will spread trhe zoa's but not very fast, instead, direct current will spread them fast.

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7647304#post7647304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by silversnake
I bought a polyp rock with about a 100 polyps I dont know if they are zoos or palys but they are tan with green centers. They absolutely gorge themselves on frozen brine shrimp when i feed to the tank. After only one month they are multiplying and getting bigger.

I think they are palys which have rather bigger mouth as compared to the normal zoas.Palys generally have a much higher growth rate than small normal zoas.:rollface:

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7659804#post7659804 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by phil121
This is a great thread!! Anybody with zoo tanks have any thoughts as to how different types of water flow effect growth/growth patterns? Linear or random (switching on/off powerheads) or powerheads that rotate (powersweep)? Does using wavemakers (Red Sea or whatever) increase growth/health?

Keep up the good discussion.
Yes , its true tat the zoas grow accroding to the current speading their tissues.yes, wave maker increases growth rates , but the speed which it is increasing is still unknown.

Hope to have a clue on growth accelerations.

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7673493#post7673493 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The Beaut
As you know most Zoas are found near the ocean surface, therefore changes in flow can only be beneficial to them in an aquarium.
Northbay-reefer, i agree with what you said. Almost all my zoas are at the top of my tank and are growing at an alarming rate. the only ones that i think prefer less light are blues.
I am testing a frag of 4 pink polyps. After 2 weeks it is at 8, we will see if this growth continues.
continue updating it and watch it progressing.;)

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7673543#post7673543 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The Beaut
Beforehttp://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/1228323.JPG
Now after 1yr
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122832tank1.JPG Thats some awesome growth :p

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7677532#post7677532 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FLIPbmw
To get polyps to spread over a bare rock quickly, it would be best to place a few polyps every x distance from one another. This gives the polyps room to grow and they can grow in any direction they want (360*).

If polyps are bunched up together in a close group, only the outer ring will spread leaving the inner polyps to do nothing since the space is already taken up.

Each solo polyp can grow in any direction, 2 polyps together will only limit their growth to half of the area (ie; the polyp cant grow ontop of its neighbor).

When I started fragging (Some time in march), I noticed that my frag with dense heads didn't spread as much as the 4-5 polyps that i glued on seperately to rock. The head count was pretty close, but the area didn't get bigger with the dense frag.


As long as the tissue can spread over an area quickly, new polyps will eventually grow. I believe this is a propagation technique used by people. Place the frags infront of a powerhead, the polyps will close up but with the force of the current, their tissue will follow and slowly expand. Of course you can't enjoy the polyps, but they will grow extremely fast.

This is some great info....:D

[giantbicycle]

Any new findings :P

[NanoCube-boy]

great info guys...

[RedSonja]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7442232#post7442232 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by giantbicycle
New findings,...

It is true to my findings that moderate flow of constant random current acting on the colony of zoothids will get them to spread faster over time.but over current might result in stress and causing them not to open.

I've found this to be true also. I have an MJ 1200 mounted to an Osci-Wave, with a Hyor-Flow attached to the MJ (three gadgets! :) ) The Zoas that get the random moderate flow from this have new polyps at about twice the rate as those that are too far away to get the current. Dunno if that's the only factor but it's noticeable.

-Sonja

[Questin]

First I will talk about the zoas I have that grow the most. On zoaid I would have to say they are the Riddler Zoas, and they have outgrown every other zoa in my tank by far. They also happen to be at the bottom of my tank, but I think what will follow will explain this. I ordered this frag from Blanes a few years ago and I think it had something like 8 heads, but has grown and covered an entire rock with over hundreds.

First, I think having a good surface to grow upon was key
Second, the flow from a powerhead “pushed” the zoa to go in the direction of the flow.
Third, the tank has no skimmer, so the water was “dirty”
Fourth, I never messed around with those zoas, I let them do their thing

Now on to other things I think people should think about.

- One would be something I learned about grass. Did you know that grass only grows at night? During the day all of it’s energy is used to soak up the suns rays, then at night it focuses on growing. This is something I learned from the caretaker of a golf course, and a very nice one at that. Do you think that it is possible that a longer night period could allow Zoas more time to grow, just like grass?

- Throughout this entire thread it seems that we think that fraging the mother colonies is the fastest way to get more zoas. So to me that means cutting some zoas out and putting them on a new area to grow. How about this then? Cutting the runners tissue, but leaving everything in place. If you see the mat/tissue spreading to another area, just cut it there and maybe some heads will pop out of that. I know that I have a few runners that are about an inch long of the colonies tissue, and I could easily just cut one of those. In fact I will be doing this now, but has anyone tried to do this to see if you get more heads?

- Has anyone tried different surface types? I have notices that there are areas on my reef that zoas will not grow. These are almost always porous areas in the rock. For whatever reason the zoas hate these areas and grow around it if they can, but most stop in their tracks and don’t expand anywhere else. So maybe there is an surface area that they love to grow on.

- Dirty water I think is something zoas like as well, skimmerless tanks make for happy zoas.

- Time of year, is there a best time of year?\

[giantbicycle]

Questin ,thanks for the comment...

Agreed that they are same with yumas which love dirty water as they are found in valleys, low lying area.. However, i guess that your tank which you grow the zoas are only cater to thoes zoas and nothing else , Fish ,etc, if not, there goes your fish.Am i right to say that?



Well, im observing on my radioactive zoos and w/o strong current, i can see a most of them melting and lesses polyps are seen,:( this proves the current right..

[Questin]

I have a lot of Zoas, a lot of rics and mushrooms, and I also have SPSs in the tank. One SPS is doing so well that is has attached itself to the glass on the back of the tank and is growing on it. About a 9 inch or so diameter area on the glass. I also have fish which include a lipstick blenny, 6 line, pygmy angelfish, and a very fat and happy purple tang that I have had for about 6 years now. There are a pair of cleaner shrimp, a couple of lettuce nudibranchs and plenty of other happy clearer crew.

I guess I dont understand why you would think I could not have fish and other coral.

Edit: Oh I forgot that there are also clams in the tank, 2 Crocea (one three inch and one four inch) 1 Squamosa that is about four inches.

[giantbicycle]

Whao , and with this you are able to turn the skimmer off?

SOfties , LPS and SPS in a same tank doing well with fishes and inverts, that is one awesome tank, must have been matured ya?

[Questin]

Its been up for years and I never really had a skimmer on it. Only a few months have I had a skimmer going on the tank.

[NanoCube-boy]

cool thread

[Myrddraal]

I'll bring this one back from the dead, does anyone have any new info that's not captured here? This is a very interesting thread so far.

[WILDTHING]

Actually I'm wondering about something I just read, someone was suggesting that NOT feeding Zoas brought out their best colors because it forced them to use their zooanthellia<--- that can't be spelled right.

Any thoughts?

[giantbicycle]

Unteresting indeed.

Yes, from what my studies had made, what you said was 1 of the factors that affect the growth . But however, if you rank it in proportion as compared to current, movement, i am unsure. However , to attain fastest growth .what 1 needs is 100% the factors that affect the growth , some how which will spurt its growth, and not stunn it. I feel the more it is being moved/touched, the more growth stunn it will received and that will be a bad way to start.

For now, factors are : 1.) Current, random at all sides from the zoas,
2.) water condition , opposite from that of an SPS quality :D
3.) Intensity of the light. a LOW kelvin /PAR will advance growth, but colour will fade, which can be replenish with strong antinics after that.

Cheers:

Edwan:)

[goldmaniac]

great thread
I'm just getting started with corals, after 7-8 years of FOWLR.
I have two types of zoas and I'm (hopefully) getting another 7-8 types from an order next week, so I'm looking to get peak conditions for these guys.

I think i've unconsciously decided to have a zoa/paly-dominated tank. the variety is amazing.

Anyway, what amount of light is considered sufficient? I just tend to put everything at the top of my tank, and I currently have Armor of Gods (doing great) and some RPE's (not budding, very long stalks, poor red color), so i have a mixed bag of success.

I just replaced my 175w HQI's last night. I had 20k's, replaced them with 15k's.
In additon to the two 175 metal halides, I have two 92w PC acitinics. All of this light is part of a hood.

I think this is enough light, (is it?) but does anyone think that it's enough light for some zoa's to like mid-tank-level?

And will the 15k temp of the new bulbs be an improvement over the 20k bulbs, which have been in service for a year?

Great thread.
G.

[giantbicycle]

Welcome to the thread goldmaniac . Soon you will be a zoamaniac. :D

Well, there is lots of discussion going around regarding the peak conditions for the best of zoa, however, since there is no proven effects for the best of zoos Currently, this thread is based on observations and sharing where one can try and maybe it can work for 1 but not another reefer. so it depends, however, to make a zoa happy, you just need its minimum requirements, to make it bloom like wild grass, its another story. :D

Yes, goldmaniac , the lights are suitable for the requirement of the zoas. you was saying if you want to place it in a mid-tank level, firstly, how deep is your tank? how deep is your mid-tank level? if a 5feet depth will be incomparrable with a 2feet depth.However, your 2nos of 175W Mh will be able to penetrate roughly at 2feet for maximum penetration. It will make your zoas smile.

From what you said, very long stalks RPE is an indication of them wanting more light, it might be beacuse they are obtained from places of a more penetration from light source as that compared to your tank, condition it and slowly move it higher up till it starts growing sideways. :rollface: .

Again, not all zoas are fitted at the same position of the tank, this depends on the colour and the source it is from.Some will lose colour when it receive too much light while some may de-colour when it receive too less of a light.

The kelvin (K) of the light is one of the disscussion we had made earlier on, and from my observations, the lower the K, the faster it will grow, but, it will lose its intense colouration, this can be replenish with supplements of iodine and intense Antinics.( a long,long time thou). Improvement wise, its hard to judge as u could mean improvement for the tank overall look ? or for the growth of the corals, anw, a year is good to change thoes bulbs.

Cheers:
Edwan

[giantbicycle]

Any inspirational to this thread


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=586173&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 (ADDICTION)

[goldmaniac]

GiantB:

Thanks for the words - yeah, I think these zoas are great. I'll slowly move my stretching RPE's up a little bit more, meanwhile, I've found and devoured everything on the Zoanthid Information Draft - I know enough in this hobby to know that it's a good start.

My tank is 24" deep. it's a 2'x2'x4, with plenty of room for [some of] the variety out there... so the RPE's are about 8 inches from the top, I'll move them up. I'm just a little concerned that any and all zoa's will need to be at the top of the tank, where real estate is most precious. I'll test out, with as few movements as possible.

Thanks again -

Eric G.

[giantbicycle]

No worries.

Looks good. Do keep this thread an update if you noticed your precious growing like wild grass after some time. You can as well add on to the disscussion of this thread, and your input will be well apreciated by many.

To the zoas.
Cheers:
Edwan

[giantbicycle]

Opps, got the website wrong.

CLICK HERE (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=586173&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) :)

[giantbicycle]

Do you guys notice any co-relation between KH and your zoos?

[islandcreation]

Good topic. I collect zoas/palys but I generally tend to go with Palys. Why, there are many reasons. Zoas are small, unless target feeding is a daily job. Palys grab food and close up most zoas don't close up even if target feed. I see zoas being more affected by nudibranches rather than palys (thicker skin?).

For growth, I feel the main factor that I don't think anyone mentioned (I didn't read the whole thread) is the diffrence from a wild colony to a aquacultured. I have seen my devils armor aquacultured grow like crazy, then I got a colony of fire and ice (wild) take awhile to get adjusted then open up with slow growth. Their not even rare zoas and the growth rate was slower than slow. I can vouch for this numerous times. But then again I did get a colony of ked redds to produce pretty fast after being in the tank for 6 months but that was a rare scenario.
For placement, I have great luck with a good flow (meaning the heads are moving gently)! Then I target them with a mixture of cyclopeeze, mysis, and brine shrimp! Anytime I trade or sell a frag pack individuals are always talking about how big the heads are that they got. Some of my colonies palys heads are as big as a nickel. But thats based on target feeding 5 days a week.

[giantbicycle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11159174#post11159174 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by islandcreation
Good topic. I collect zoas/palys but I generally tend to go with Palys. Why, there are many reasons. Zoas are small, unless target feeding is a daily job. Palys grab food and close up most zoas don't close up even if target feed. I see zoas being more affected by nudibranches rather than palys (thicker skin?).

For growth, I feel the main factor that I don't think anyone mentioned (I didn't read the whole thread) is the diffrence from a wild colony to a aquacultured. I have seen my devils armor aquacultured grow like crazy, then I got a colony of fire and ice (wild) take awhile to get adjusted then open up with slow growth. Their not even rare zoas and the growth rate was slower than slow. I can vouch for this numerous times. But then again I did get a colony of ked redds to produce pretty fast after being in the tank for 6 months but that was a rare scenario.
For placement, I have great luck with a good flow (meaning the heads are moving gently)! Then I target them with a mixture of cyclopeeze, mysis, and brine shrimp! Anytime I trade or sell a frag pack individuals are always talking about how big the heads are that they got. Some of my colonies palys heads are as big as a nickel. But thats based on target feeding 5 days a week.

Thanks for the inputs.

Its a new finding on aquaculture V.S wild, i only thought that applies to SPS. If that is true, why not the mother coloney of the wild specimen will be fragged and we aquaculture it resulting in faster growth, so the factor that spurs it to growth is agian fragging. Right? :rollface: The sureface of the new rock, the space it has and such .

Gosh, a nickel. thats huge.

Target feeding, Guys , please try that . :)

[islandcreation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11163120#post11163120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by giantbicycle
Thanks for the inputs.

Its a new finding on aquaculture V.S wild, i only thought that applies to SPS. If that is true, why not the mother coloney of the wild specimen will be fragged and we aquaculture it resulting in faster growth, so the factor that spurs it to growth is agian fragging. Right? :rollface: The sureface of the new rock, the space it has and such .

Gosh, a nickel. thats huge.

Target feeding, Guys , please try that . :)

Yeah, I have great feedback as a seller/trader on here and have compliments on the size of the heads. For the wild VS aquacultured... its just the fact that some colonies are harder to adjust to a repilcated environment. Fragging doesn't necesarly mean faster growth, it all pends on that particular zoa/paly. Like all of the exotic ones grow slow. I've had PPE that were snails and AOG's but then again my devils armor grow like weeds. And I guess the most exotic is the orange people eater which grow 1.5-2 heads a year? Thats what I read and heard.

[goldmaniac]

well, I replaced my 175w HQI's, and my RPE's went from stretching 3/4" to the light to back down to the 1/4". the bulbs I replaced were my first metal halide bulbs, as I got my hood last year, and I was surprised just how much brighter new bulbs were.

I thought certain wavelengths wore out in old bulbs, but didn't expect the brightness to reduce so much over time. wow! the more light seems to make my little RPE's happier.

MY QUESTION:

I replaced my 20k bulbs with 15k's, not only do I not like the new wavelength, but I hear that lower temperature bulbs diminishes color, even if they encourage growth. Is that right?
I'm happy with my old acitinic PC / 20k metal halide combo, will this combo be best for color?

The RPE's I bought from a seller here at RC are much more dull and drab than the pictures I saw, i thought the 20k's just weren't showing the true red.. but maybe not. They're not much more colorful under 15k. I wanted a more balanced display of color, I thought the 20k's were too blue to show nice oranges and reds, but now I'm thinking that's not the case.

thanks,

G.

thanks,

g.

[islandcreation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11173049#post11173049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
well, I replaced my 175w HQI's, and my RPE's went from stretching 3/4" to the light to back down to the 1/4". the bulbs I replaced were my first metal halide bulbs, as I got my hood last year, and I was surprised just how much brighter new bulbs were.

I thought certain wavelengths wore out in old bulbs, but didn't expect the brightness to reduce so much over time. wow! the more light seems to make my little RPE's happier.

MY QUESTION:

I replaced my 20k bulbs with 15k's, not only do I not like the new wavelength, but I hear that lower temperature bulbs diminishes color, even if they encourage growth. Is that right?
I'm happy with my old acitinic PC / 20k metal halide combo, will this combo be best for color?

The RPE's I bought from a seller here at RC are much more dull and drab than the pictures I saw, i thought the 20k's just weren't showing the true red.. but maybe not. They're not much more colorful under 15k. I wanted a more balanced display of color, I thought the 20k's were too blue to show nice oranges and reds, but now I'm thinking that's not the case.

thanks,

G.

thanks,

g.



You hit it on the spot when you switched the bulbs first hand. I feel 20k's are sufficient enough to not needing PC's (most people use PC's for the actinic for both color or to slowly get their corals to acclimate to light before the halides come on). Overall, from what I witnessed along with a good amount od inidividuals are 20K's are a good choise as far as halides. But then again I have a 14K phoenix HQI which is by FAR the best balance I have seen! I have heard testing for magnesium can have an affect on the coloration of zoa/paly's if anyone knows please chim in.... Thanks

[goldmaniac]

maybe I got crap bulbs, but I have an Odyssea hood that states that the metal halide bulbs - HQI's - are 175 watt. I'm starting to doubt that, as I can't find replacements ANYWHERE.

I think the (only) bulbs I found online (15k's) look like crap. Everything looks green, my Flame Angel doesn't pop orange much more than with the 20k, the skunk cleaner shimp don't pop any more than before and the RPE's are still drab and dull.

Does anyone know if Odyssea is making up 175w bulbs? I'd love ot be able to choose among 150w bulbs... Does the Phoenix 14k show lots of color? I'm really surprised how poor these 15k bulbs look.

thanks again,
G.

[islandcreation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11174191#post11174191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
maybe I got crap bulbs, but I have an Odyssea hood that states that the metal halide bulbs - HQI's - are 175 watt. I'm starting to doubt that, as I can't find replacements ANYWHERE.

I think the (only) bulbs I found online (15k's) look like crap. Everything looks green, my Flame Angel doesn't pop orange much more than with the 20k, the skunk cleaner shimp don't pop any more than before and the RPE's are still drab and dull.

Does anyone know if Odyssea is making up 175w bulbs? I'd love ot be able to choose among 150w bulbs... Does the Phoenix 14k show lots of color? I'm really surprised how poor these 15k bulbs look.

thanks again,
G.

Sorry to talk crap about odyssea but their really not good. I'll be honest, at first I couldn't afford anything and I did have a odyssey. Actually I had a Odysea recently on my jbj 24 gallon cube that was 250 watts with the phoenix. I heard the wiring on a odysea isn't electrically complient to US standards (maybe a rumor if anyone knows more please educate us). I love the phoenix, it a perfect blend of blue and white Basically a light blue ocean water. But he get what you pay for the bulb was $70+ dollars online. I compared the light with what the oddysea came with a 250 20k compared to the 250 14k phoenix, can you say night and day.

Try ebay for 175 hqi's? Cheap and maybe a nicer color...

[goldmaniac]

I started another thread, specifically asking about whether double ended HQI 175w bulbs exist. I got a number of answers saying they don't.

So last night I got two Phoenix 14k's online, which shipping, for $105. I'm eager to see the difference.

I'm wary of these Odyssea hoods; I have everything double-insulated with GFI's and UPS circuit breakers. I think I'll be ok if something disasterous happens.

AND if that happens, I'll just have to explain to the wife that I just HAVE to get the 250w icecap ballasts and some pendants ASAP..

G.

[islandcreation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11180534#post11180534 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
I started another thread, specifically asking about whether double ended HQI 175w bulbs exist. I got a number of answers saying they don't.

So last night I got two Phoenix 14k's online, which shipping, for $105. I'm eager to see the difference.

I'm wary of these Odyssea hoods; I have everything double-insulated with GFI's and UPS circuit breakers. I think I'll be ok if something disasterous happens.

AND if that happens, I'll just have to explain to the wife that I just HAVE to get the 250w icecap ballasts and some pendants ASAP..

G.

I'm kind of lost here... So do you have 175 HQI's? And when you got the phoenix bulbs were they 175's? I

[goldmaniac]

No, I got confirmation, on the other thread, by about 5 different RC'ers that there's never been any such thing as 175 HQI, double-ended, and that the mfgr (Odyssea) is probably making it up. Maybe to sell their own brand of "175 watt" HQI bulbs, I don't know. I don't want to speculate.

the phoenix 14k's I got were 150 watt. I should have specified that. sorry. Everything, and i mean EVERYTHING, I read about Phoenix 14k's have been positive, and they're definitely going to be at least better than the crap Odyssea "175 watt" HQI bulbs I bought last week.

G.

SO my color concerns with my new zoa's coming in (hopefully tomorrow) are probably a thing of the past. Or at least I'll stop thinking/obsessing about it.

[goldmaniac]

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Now back to zoa growth..

[aquaman3680]

Not to get off topic but one of the things that I would like to hear about and see if any one has done it is putting two different color zoas next to eachother and would they morph between the two colors? I have noticed different variations within the colony. How do you promote the variations within a colony?

Just wondering.

Matt

[gregrocks79]

I got these bad boys (saphire blue zoos) 3 weeks ago cuz I saw this thread and was curious. They were a 3 poly frag and after 2 weeks it already has 7 total now! The pic was taken 2 days after and you can already see a baby has grown. My EE, sunshine, and atomic green were bigger frags and are growing too but my blues have exploded. For some reason my sunshines closed up for a week or so then I saw a thread about treating with vitamin c. WOW after a few days they have opened and are looking good... More about that post later when I put new pics up..

Anyways I think smaller frags explode more because of the fight or flight reaction. :)

saphire blues
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/?action=view&current=bluezoos4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/bluezoos4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

sunshine zoos
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/?action=view&current=zoos.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/zoos.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

eagle eyes
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/?action=view&current=l_001b0688620d8f8fe18b77d80812732e.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/l_001b0688620d8f8fe18b77d80812732e.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

atomic green zoos
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/?action=view&current=atomicgreenzoos.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/atomicgreenzoos.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[gregrocks79]

forgot to mention...

all my zoos are at the bottom of my tank with good amount of flow, (I have a hydro flo making current) stock 12g nano dlx lighting, and I feed them every few days a half capful of phyto...

here's my FTS pic
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/?action=view&current=FTS.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bekkenmusic/FTS.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

thanks! :)

[giantbicycle]

Dont mind sharing whats the VItamin C does to aids in this thread of ours? :D :D

[isistius]

this thread is great. i'm gonna keep it going. i had all of my zoas/palys under 150w hqi's. for the most part, there was very little growth at all. probably due to the watteage of the bulbs and the depth they were placed in the tank. (135g - so approx. 24" from the light source) in june of last year, i built a frag tank. 30g long with a 5x39w t5 fixture over it. in november i decided to break down my 135 and condese that and the frag tank into my 54 corner.

i transferred all of my zoas into the frag tank in november. after light acclimating them for 3 weeks, i noticed that:
1) they were much more open
2) the colors under the mh couldn't even compare to the vividness of them under the t5's
3) several of the colonies started to rapidly grow.

i don't ahve a polyp count, but i will give you 1 prime example. i received a frag of zombie eyes from a friend, maybe 10 polyps. i had them in the 135 for probably close to 3-4 months before moving them into the frag tank. there was NO noticable growth in that time frame. since the move, the colony has probably increased in size 4x. so that means that i have over 40 polyps in a 8 week period, with new growth almost daily.

ime (which doesn't account or much - lol) i am attributing the growth to light. light light light light light.

[75pxatr]

I started the thread zoanthids out of control. See the photos in my photo gallery by clicking the camera icon.

You can see rapid growth of the green and brown zoas covering the gravel and moving up the glass.

I would agree with the post that the more you have the faster they multiply. this has been my experience.

Mine seem to prefer strong water movement and some types are much more prolific than others.

I do not feed either. I have noticed that some are very sensitive to lower alk levels.

[giantbicycle]

Thanks isistius and 75pxaytr for the inputs.

Yes, isistius, Lights are one of the major furl in zoas growing which aids them to spread, but if this combinayion is used in colleberation with other fast aiding fuels (Which are still widly unkonwn) , won't our rare and special zoas grow like under the influence of steriods? That will be great:D .. Lets put MH as one of the main fuel now.What specs of MH are u using btw? Watts?Kelvin ?? How is the height from the light source to the zoas like?Thanks


75pxaytr, I've taken a look at your pics and i jus go "WOW" . Im dreaming if that could happen on the bluies , rare gem in my tank. :D . Low alk , Taken note.


How about Magnesium in relation to the growth zoas ppls out there?

[isistius]

i'm not using mh. i switched from 2x150w mh over my 135 to 5x39w t5 over my frag/corner. the output of t5's blows any 150w and almost every 250w out of the water.

so i'm running:

1 - 3500k
1 - 6500k
3 - actinic

i want to change the bulbs out to better suit my likes in terms of coloration. right now, the bulbs that are on there were chosen for growth and not coloration (hence the reason they were on my frag tank) i want a more blueish tint, so i'm eventually going to switch all my bulbs out for the following:

2 - 12000k
3 - 18000k

my light sit about 5 inches off the top of the tank, so maybe 6 in above the water. the zoas i mentioned above are maybe 15 - 18" from the lights. i have zoas/palys placed throughout the tank, and they are all doing well.

[Sambooty]

What discerns a Zoathanid over a Palythoa? Trying to ID all my softies in my tank. Do Palys always have the longer stem to them? Do zoas have the long stem sometimes too?

Pretty sure the one colony I have is a paly colony, also do paly colonies tend to grow more in a clump style kinda all connected to the middle?

[NanoCube-boy]

paly usually larger as how wide the polyps is. The stem can be larger than zoanthid as well.

[Skeptic_07]

thread resurrection ! :D

[650-IS350]

definitely...

[MUCHO REEF]

We use to have some great discussions back in the day that went on for pages. HMMMMMMM.... hint hint hint

[Skeptic_07]

We use to have some great discussions back in the day that went on for pages. HMMMMMMM.... hint hint hint

Yes, I remember this one well, at this point I was still tankless doing lots of reading and researching and not doing much posting.

If you check out this thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=586173&perpage=25&pagenumber=2) you will find that TCU reefer's zoa mat was growing at an alarming rate without fragging.

Here is from his first post on the thread..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/TropheusKid/Tank%20Project/sc18.jpg
...and 6 months later..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/TropheusKid/Tank%20Project/DSC01115Medium.jpg

I don't think this fragging for growth theory holds water at all. From the looks of that it seems the bigger the colony the faster it grows (exponential growth).

[Fiction2040]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11583282#post11583282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by isistius
i'm not using mh. i switched from 2x150w mh over my 135 to 5x39w t5 over my frag/corner. the output of t5's blows any 150w and almost every 250w out of the water.


I highly doubt that.

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14833641#post14833641 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fiction2040
I highly doubt that.

I switched from a hood with dual 150w hqi metal halides (and a couple PCs) to a 4" 8 x 54w t5 hood, and it's more light.

[areze]

well yeah, 400watts of T5 before you even get to overdriving, going to be more light then 300w of MH. especially if the MH is older bulbs and the reflectors are cheaper.

[goldmaniac]

I was simply confirming that t5's compare to metal halides. Fiction2040 expressed doubt on a broad scale, and i was providing an example.

[goldmaniac]

and my metal halide hood was running two 96w PCs, so the total wattage of my metal halide hood and T5 hood was comparable.

hqi + PCs hood = approx 490w
t5 hood = approx 430 w

[650-IS350]

without fragging. that's the keyword.

[areze]

PCs suck though :p either way, of course T5s can compare.

now difference is that you could have had 250w, 400w or even 1000w MHs in the same space, while the laws of physics shaft you on trying to fit more than 8 T5 bulbs over a tank for the most part. so for deeper tanks, MH is the only way to get the intensity/sqft.

but we are getting fairly off topic :p my experience is that zoas tend to not like a TON of light anyway.

[gsxunv04]

i have a 10g nano with 80w pc fixture on it, it appears some zoos shrivel as if too much light, any comments.

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14837577#post14837577 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by areze


...but we are getting fairly off topic :p my experience is that zoas tend to not like a TON of light anyway.

agreed; most of my zoas do best along the bottom of my tank anyway.

my 8-bulb t5 hood has two power switches, they each control 4 bulbs. I have "blues" on one timer (10 hours/day) and my "sunlight" bulbs ( =,< 10k) on another timer. I increased my sunlight timer to 5 hours/day and my RPE's have turned light pink from a red/purple, as an example.

In my experience, it's easy for too much light to drastically fade the colors in my zoas, and the fade is greater than any increase in growth of polyps.

\ I'd rather have a little too less light, with nice colors, and slower polyp growth, than too much light, losing color, even if growth speeds up.

[gsxunv04]

I have backed off my daylight spectrum as well(down from 8 to 6 hrs/day), and it seems the zoo's are pleased with the situation. actinics are still on for 10 hours

[kawicivic]

Saw mucho's thread about lack of informative posts... then I came across an old subscription... anyone new want to throw their theories on zoa growth??

[Friday Night]

Good topic and questions

1.Dose
2.Depends on Zoa to much light stresses em out again there not a high light needed coral
3.Yes
4. Id think it would be the complete opposite.. once again stressed em out needs time to heal and regenerate
5. I would think so due to mild current would push all needed supplements around more
6. A consistent dosing schedule light and water chem

My thoughts
Friday

[IridescentLily]

Bump to get some kind if real thread on page one. :-)

[kawicivic]

haha... that was what i tried to do as well... I wish there was more meaningful discussion

[IridescentLily]

Good job Kawicivic. Okay, well you and I can talk then lol.
So...has anyone talked about paly growth as far as feeding?
Do you feed yours? Or do they just get whatever falls from feeding the fish?

[bekindtoyurbuds]

All of my answer's are based on my experience over the last 2+ years

1: Which is the best way to Make Zooanthids Spread Rapidly (Fastest)?
By fragging


2: IS it True that Placing them High up nearning to the MH will promote fast growth as well as spreading?
Somewhat, putting them higher in the light also makes the zoanthids "shorten" their stalks (for some zoanthids), (this is how you tell if they are getting enough light, too little light or the right amount of light), depends on the type or zoa, they are all different), lower in the light lets them sort of reach for the light making them fuller, more rounded, rather than looking flat for colonies or frags

3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth?
Don't know what PROOVE is, but lets just do feeding in general, I used to feed my corals, but I have gotten lazy lately (for the past 4 months) and have not fed them (by feeding I mean, marine snow or something simular) I have noticed more growth when not feeding.

4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rate?
Yes, for me newly fragged zoa's tend to exploded in growth after fragging, my fastest growing zoa's (kedd redds) have on average 20 new polyps per month, if I didn't frag I might get about 5-10 polyps per month (you can also frag up a small colonie say 30 polyps on a small plug or rock and mount them to a way larger rock and space out the clippings (of about 3 polyps each) about a half inch to an inch in any direction on the rock (10 times (30 polyps divided by 3 equals ten clippings)) and let it grow into a massive colony in no time.

5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current?
I have zoa's all over the tank (colonies + Frags) in high, low, and medium flow spots, and they all do well, nothing seems to be better, on the other hand zoa's in high to moderate flow areas, zoa's of the same color/type, have longer tentacles than the ones in low flow spots

6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed..
In my experience, placing different types of zoa's (color wise) next to each other (about 1/2" or less appart) on the same rock or frag plug will usually increase the growth rates. they sort of try to out do each other.

[noobtothereef]

feeding
in my experience, some zoas 'react' to food, some 'eat' food (mostly palys), and others don't seem to even know i'm squirting them w/ food.

i'm not convinced that any of my zoas eat, but i am very convinced that some of my palys do.

exponential growth
another note, and it may seem obvious once stated, is that zoanthid growth is exponential. i.e. if you start w/ 2 polyps and grow a 3rd in 7 weeks, then you can carry that same logic out (roughly) to where if you had 20 polyps, you'd get roughly 10 more in the same time period.

furthermore, it seems to be at a greater exponential rate than just a simple multiplier factor. i.e. it seems to be more than just 1.5x the polyp count every y time period. i'm not gonna go try and find a differential equation to describe their growth, but it seems to be that you might get 1.5x the first y period, then 1.55x the second y period, then 1.6x the third y period, etc. until it levels off at some growth rate number.

i've noticed this to be pretty consistent while watching them grow. there are other factors, i.e. surface area adjacent to potential growth areas vs. the highly populated center of a colony, but you get the idea. :D (for the math and engineering peeps out there: assume the horse is a sphere! LOL)

so unfortunately, that logic lends itself to 'not fragging'. blasphemy! heehee!

so what do you do? frag or grow?

well, here's my game plan. not saying it's right or wrong, just what i do! :) if i've got a new colony or frag, after about 3 weeks of it being in my tank (to allow it to recoup from transport/fragging/new-tank-syndrome), i'll frag it and get it out to a couple of my key local trading buddies for backups. (they extend the same courtesy to me - a symbiotic relationship, ha ha!) then i'll let them grow to the unjustifiable number of 30 polyps. 30 polyps just seems like an aesthetically pleasing number of polyps to me when looking at zoas in my tank. it doesn't look like a 'frag' still, but not a colony either. once i'm at 30, i'll start fragging here and there for people as requested while 'slowly' letting my mother colony's numbers grow as well. remember - once yer at 30 polyps, yer growth is going to be much 'quicker' - or at least a higher quantity of polyps, not necessarily quicker.

so let's play out a year's worth of growth. numerically and chronologically, it would look something like:

day 1 - new frag of 6 polyps comes in. DIP IT!! heh
day 21 - (3 weeks since i've had them) perhaps 1 new polyp, frag it into 1 x 2 polyp and 1 x 5 polyp frags. get one in another tank!!!
day 70 - at ~ 8 polyps
day 119 - at ~ 13 polyps
day 168 - at ~21 polyps
day 217 - at ~32 polyps - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to 27 polyps
day 266 - at ~ 40-42 polyps (depending how the colony reacted to the fragging) - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to ~36 polyps
day 315 - at ~ 55 polyps - the surface area at which the zoas can spread out is large, but no 'center' growth as there's nowhere for the center polyps to grow! frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 45 polyps
day 364 - at ~ 62 polyps, same growth restraints, frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 52


so in ~ 3/4 year, i'm ready for fragging. after 1 years time, my mother colony is at ~52 polyps, and i've made a total of 7 frags. and after this mark, i'm making 2 frags per month and soon 3 polyp frags per month.

also - you noticed that i made mention of no 'center' growth as it's crowded out. this lends to more advanced fragging techniques involving fragging the middle of your colony and not just the edges. why? well, if you make frags in the middle of your colony, then the middle zoas have a place to grow too. thus, yer getting border growth and middle growth. it is a lot more work to frag in this manner though...

thoughts?

62 polyps in a year? If ive read correctly, if done right couldnt you have probably 2-300 polyps in a year doing small single polyp frags?

[deadmeat]

I joined to revive this topic after many moons of simply lurking thru forums. I just simply learn much more from reading others inputs and gathering through my own experiences. <--- Enough about me.

After tons of research and extraction of everyone's inputs into this discussion over the last several years, as well as other forums I lurk, there is still the one major question that eludes my knowlege base. It will follow my tidbits of info below.

I keep both Paly's and Zoa's although they are similar, I have always been able to tell the difference in them simply to reaction of spot feeding. (I only have 6 diff Paly colonies and 22 Zoa colonies to base this on.) The Paly's always respond to meaty and protien based foods rapidly. The Zoas respond to nothing I try. I know this Thread was based on Growth factors, We have all figured out lighting and current are "What We Know About" that work. But most living creatures all eat something, I cannot believe that Zoas respond to nothing. <--- (meening a physical response like seen in Paly's)

So my Question is,
Does anyone use a product Commercial or Homegrown that Zoas respond too?

Dewey115 posed an interesting idea on page three of this thread on 02/12/2006, 02:28 PM with his info/idea regarding dynoflaggellates.

I have gained and confirmed much knowlege from here and other foorums. I appreciate everyone's patience with my rambling. I'm hoping someone has an input that will help us all.

Tom

[MUCHO REEF]

Welcome aboard DB. Please stick around as I truly enjoy these types of questions and discussions.

Personally speaking, I feel that just because zoas, which feed on zooplankton, do not exhibit a prey/capture response, as is the case with palythoas when meaty external foods are introduced, that doesn't mean they aren't feeding. I have turned my actinics on after 5 hours of total and complete darkness, and 1/3 of my zoas were open. My question is, why? When irritated/physically disturbed, they will retract, but this is a natural response. So the question is still the same. What foods will cause them to react as palys do? To that question I would say this. They have this multipurpose oral slit that according to Eric Bornemen, ( aquarist, researcher and author) is used to "assist with both feeding and water exchange". If this is true, and he knows far more than you and I both, then zoas will and do actively feed in my opinion, just not in the same manner as palythoas. I believe and agree with E.B., that zoas feed continuously, we simple don't see them doing so via a response. I mean, why would they be fully expanded in complete darkness? If that makes any since. You aren't going to necessarily see the zooplankton they feed on, so they could theoretically feed without our physically seeing it.

The oral slit allows food to enter and pass through the Siphonoglyph ( mouth ), which then passes through their stomach. Hmm, they have a stomach? Zoanthids also have a gastrovascular pouch/cavity below this oral slit and Siphonoglyph. This Gastrovascular pouch/cavity, has a dual function of both digestion and nutrient distribution. So they have an oral slit by which food enters. See the definition of Gastrovascular Cavity in the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrovascular_cavity



This definition speaks also of Cnidaria. See link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoantharia



An oral slit, a Siphonoglyph, which leads to a gastrovascular cavity ( stomach ) which digest and distributes food, which E. Borneman says, they feed continuously, with and oral slit which has a dual role for nutrient intake as well as an orifice for waste, I'd say searching for a food which will cause a prey/capture response in zoas, just might be a waste of time. Not trying to sound smart mouth or anything and I hope I didn't come off that way.

As you stated, good lighting, good current, a couple of weekly addition of zooplankton and fish poop, and you're good to go. Of course other factors, such as tank maturity, parameters and proper husbandry etc. are also vital.


I hope this makes sense and I didn't just talk myself into a circle.



Mucho Reef



PS. Also some good reading in the link below

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1880631&highlight=gastrovascular

[Patsquatch]

I feel that the higher the light and the flow creates a healthy reproduction rate. Like zoas that supposedly reproduce 1 polyp a month;(PPE), i have been able to increase to about 2 polyps per month; with nightly feedings, @ about 14" under 800Watts of light. (mixed compact & DE MH)

[MUCHO REEF]

I feel that the higher the light and the flow creates a healthy reproduction rate. Like zoas that supposedly reproduce 1 polyp a month;(PPE), i have been able to increase to about 2 polyps per month; with nightly feedings, @ about 14" under 800Watts of light. (mixed compact & DE MH)


I can't say that I agree with the lighting portion of that. Many zoas will actually retract and refuse to expand under intense lighting. Some will even perish if the retractionis prolonged. Thus I can't see how "the higher the light" reply can be completely true.

No two systems are alike, so there is no gurantee that polyp production in one system will yield the same results in another system or each month in any system. Tank conditions/parameters are the sole determining factor yielding growth in any system.

Just my 2.


Mucho Reef

[sterling18]

I feel that the higher the light and the flow creates a healthy reproduction rate. Like zoas that supposedly reproduce 1 polyp a month;(PPE), i have been able to increase to about 2 polyps per month; with nightly feedings, @ about 14" under 800Watts of light. (mixed compact & DE MH)

I would like to hear more.

What are your water params?

What are you feeding?

What is the break down of your lights, MH to PC?

How much flow and location under the lights?

I've seen zoo's in the ocean that were either sometimes out of water or only 1 to 2 inches under the surface. They look like they reproduce like mad. But then there are zoo's found in area's they get way less light and reproduce like mad.

[CLINTOS]

If using t5 and they approx 20" deep what would be ideal lighting for a large majority of zoas/palys for both color and growth assuming we use a 50/50 blend of 10 000k and
20 000k

4 or 6 bulbs as a rough estimate?

[Scopus Tang]

Think this needs a bump for those who are interested in how to make their polyps grow faster.

A recent thread I read got me to thinking about flow again, and I remembered some articles I had read awhile back on how flow is actually more important to your corals than light. I had to do a little digging, but came up with the article;

Feature Article: Water flow is more important for corals than light. Part 1. Introduction to Gas Exchange | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

This is the first article in a series of 4;

#2 Feature Article: Water flow is more important for corals than light. Part II: The science of corals and water flow | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

#3 Feature Article: Water flow is more important for corals, Part III | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

and #4 Feature Article: Water Flow is More Important for Corals Than Light Part 4: Basics of Hydrodynamics | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

Which in turn lead me to the question of what is the ideal flow for a zoanthid dominated tank? Total volume of flow? Turn over rate? and Type of flow?

(sorry if these were referenced earlier, haven't take the time to read the whole thread yet) Thoughts or input?

[MikeandNicole]

My 2 tanks are mixed reef with a leaning towards SPS so we have always had high flow. In a 30g tank I have an mp10 full blast and 2 mj1200 that I used to power the HOB fuge and HOB skimmer. The 45 gallon has an mp20 full blast with 3 mj1200 powering various HOB things. 30g has 250 MH and 45 has 5xT5 as far as lighting goes.

I have, what I consider, good growth in both tanks and the zoas that are on the frag racks are getting blasted with flow. I have one rack directly across from the vortechs in each tank and one that gets the rebound flow in each tank. I start my zoas up there and let them grow out a bit before I epoxy them into the rock work.

Having the muliple frag racks in the tanks allows me to play with the placement with flow. Most zoas to just fine in the high flow, but I noticed my red hornets do not like the high flow and closed up until I moved them.

The only "control" tank I have is my 12g JBJ tank which only has the stock return pump for flow. Zoas do ok in there, not as well as my other tanks but there are a TON of other factors in there so it is not really a reliable comparison (lighting, feeding, supplements, etc.).

[Scopus Tang]

My 2 tanks are mixed reef with a leaning towards SPS so we have always had high flow. In a 30g tank I have an mp10 full blast and 2 mj1200 that I used to power the HOB fuge and HOB skimmer. The 45 gallon has an mp20 full blast with 3 mj1200 powering various HOB things. 30g has 250 MH and 45 has 5xT5 as far as lighting goes.

I have, what I consider, good growth in both tanks and the zoas that are on the frag racks are getting blasted with flow. I have one rack directly across from the vortechs in each tank and one that gets the rebound flow in each tank. I start my zoas up there and let them grow out a bit before I epoxy them into the rock work.

Having the muliple frag racks in the tanks allows me to play with the placement with flow. Most zoas to just fine in the high flow, but I noticed my red hornets do not like the high flow and closed up until I moved them.

The only "control" tank I have is my 12g JBJ tank which only has the stock return pump for flow. Zoas do ok in there, not as well as my other tanks but there are a TON of other factors in there so it is not really a reliable comparison (lighting, feeding, supplements, etc.).


Thanks for the reply MnN, seems like there is good support for better growth with the vortechs - are you running yours with a linear pattern or a random pattern of flow?

[MikeandNicole]

My vortechs are both set on reef crest.

I think flow is a very important part of the equation, but I also think feeding is important too. I read the most recent coral magazine (the one with the mantis shirmp on the cover) and there was a great article titled "Is your reef anorexic?". It talk about feeding your reef many different types of food (phyto and smaller particle stuff) which I have been doing since the beginning. I recommend finding that article, it is a good read.

[Scopus Tang]

My vortechs are both set on reef crest.

I think flow is a very important part of the equation, but I also think feeding is important too. I read the most recent coral magazine (the one with the mantis shirmp on the cover) and there was a great article titled "Is your reef anorexic?". It talk about feeding your reef many different types of food (phyto and smaller particle stuff) which I have been doing since the beginning. I recommend finding that article, it is a good read.

Thanks MnN, I saw that article as well. It was indeed a good educational read.

So, random flow patterns - anybody else have any observations to support that?

An earlier question that was also addressed in this thread, but not answered was the tie between alkalinity levels and zoa growth. Is there one?

[MUCHO REEF]

Here you go evb9. This was a great discussion that lasted 7 pages.

Mucho

[nlandgraf]

This has been a great thread, but was started long enough ago one question has not been addressed in terms of polyp growth. Has anyone that has switched to LED lighting (from halides) noticed a positive or negative impact in zoa growth?

[SD Actuary]

I have been conducting an experiment in this area for the past 4 months. I have always tried to break things down into the question of "what can i expect from doing this?"

A short description of the objective of my experiment is to find out several main factors of zoa/paly frag and colony growth. I really tried to capture every possible variable when documenting this experiment, although some things are impossible to keep as control variables. A detailed listing of my progress is as follows.

I purchased about 6 different no-brand-name zoa / paly frags from my LFS about 4 months ago.

Each frag was about 20 polyps for the zoas, and about 8 polyps for the palys.

I dont want to copy the entire experiment report thus far into this forum (unless you want me to) so I will summarize the details. This is all summarized in a Microsoft Excel document.


I took the tank parameters every night for the past 4 months.
I did weekly water changes of 17 gallons NSW and roughly 3 gallons top off of RODI.
The photo-period for this duration was 8 am 2 blue bulbs on, 10 am pink and purple come on, 5 pm pink and purple off, 9 pm blues off.
The fish were fed 3 times daily, Reef Cavier in morning, NLS 1mm pellets midday, Reef Mix evening.
The coral were spot fed twice per week, Wednesday and Sunday 1 hour before lights out, they were fed a mix of phytoplankton and cyclopeez.


Every Saturday I would inspect each frag individually, without touching in to get a polyp count.

I tried to place the frags in pairs in different areas of the tank, high flow, low flow, low light.

Z1 = Zoa frag #1
P1 = Paly frag #1

A short summary of my observations are

Z1 - green/yellow , Z2 - yellow/blue - low light, low flow
Z1 grew from 21 polyps to 35 polyps
Z2 grey from 17 polyps to 30 polyps


Z3 - red/yellow, Z4 - green - medium light, medium flow
Z3 - grew from 12 polyps to 25 polyps
Z4 - grew from 31 polyps to 65 polyps


P1 - green/blue, P2 - red/green - medium light, high flow
P1 - grew from 11 polyps to 18 polyps
P2 - grew from 14 polyps to 17 polyps

This was the extent of my experiment because my lights ended up dying and I upgraded to LEDs.

I now have a new experiment going with high end Zoa / Palys
This experiment has been running for 1 week, and i intend to do the same thing with all of them for the next 6 months.


This was my experience, I am not sure that I can officially draw any conclusions from this, as they were not the same species/color in different regions to compare although it appears that my tank showed the best results when placed in a medium light medium flow area. The new experiment will try to address how different placement of high-end Z's and P's affects the growth (and coloration) of these corals.

[MUCHO REEF]

That's great SD Actuary. Very interesting read, would love to hear more when you have the time to share. It's the kind of stuff I like to hear, read and discuss. Much respect for taking the time out to do this my friend.

If you don't mind, could you share your parameters with us? It would go a long way in helping others who might want a bit of help with their polyps? Hey thanks again for taking the time to do this and sharing it.

Mucho Reef

[SD Actuary]

Average Parameters over 4 month period:

The ~ indicate a guesstimate since the titration tests seem to really be based on my opinion of when the color has officially changed.

Temperature - 76.1
Nitrate ~ 2.7 ppm
Nitrite ~ 0.0 ppm
Calcium ~ 445.2
pH - 8.13
Specific Gravity - 1.023


I dose'd 2 cap fulls of Reef Solution every morning
Ran Seachem MatrixCarbon and PhosGuard which was changed weekly
I have a very very heavily stocked refugium which I added ORA copepods to twice per month (I am a firm believer that copepods play a large role in removing execss nitrate and algae from the tank)

That is all the documented parameters that I have.

So far so good on the "expensive" experiment, I have multiple frags of the same polyp to show the differences between the two placements.

Thanks for reading!

Love to hear other people's results and observations on their Z's and P's

[MUCHO REEF]

Average Parameters over 4 month period:

The ~ indicate a guesstimate since the titration tests seem to really be based on my opinion of when the color has officially changed.

Temperature - 76.1
Nitrate ~ 2.7 ppm
Nitrite ~ 0.0 ppm
Calcium ~ 445.2
pH - 8.13
Specific Gravity - 1.023


I dose'd 2 cap fulls of Reef Solution every morning
Ran Seachem MatrixCarbon and PhosGuard which was changed weekly
I have a very very heavily stocked refugium which I added ORA copepods to twice per month (I am a firm believer that copepods play a large role in removing execss nitrate and algae from the tank)

That is all the documented parameters that I have.

So far so good on the "expensive" experiment, I have multiple frags of the same polyp to show the differences between the two placements.

Thanks for reading!

Love to hear other people's results and observations on their Z's and P's



Great, thanks.


Could you share your opinions on how you arrived at "Temperature - 76.1 and
Specific Gravity - 1.023" ? I'm not debating it, just want to know if you have experienced a different growth rate at a slightly higher reading of both.


What type of lighting did you utilize before the upgrade?

What size was your tank and how mature was the system?

Was there a heavy Bio-load, and what type of fish do you have in this system?

Thanks again for sharing this SD.


Mucho Reef

[ReeferBill]

I have three different types of zoas on the same rock and the less colorful ones are growing 3-4 times faster because they are attached to the edge and top of the rock that recieves the best water flow and and most abundant food supply. Now that I know this I will place them differently next time... Hope this helps Happy Reefing!!!:smokin:

[SD Actuary]

I should say that the specific gravity results were estimated as well. Just a standard hydrometer reading every evening.

The temperature was set around 75.5, fluctuated throughout the 4 months due to water changes, hot apartment, lighting, etc.

I used a 36" Aquatic Life T5 4x39W fixture. 2 blue, 1 pink, 1 purple bulb, i believe made by UV Aquatics.

Tank was about 11 months old before starting the growing.

Bio load: 1 Male Hawaiian Flame Wrasse, 1 Female Hawaiian Flame Wrasse, 1 Longhorn Cowfish, 1 Cubicus Boxfish, 1 Spotted Mandarin, 1 Potters Wrasse, 1 Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Maroon Clownfish

[MUCHO REEF]

Hey great, would love to hear about any updates in the future.

[Jarred1]

looks like your zoas are doubling every 4 months or so.

[kichimark]

Awesome. You inspired me to do something today. Oh if you are going to do this again could you measure the DKH? :beer:

[Jarred1]

This is a great thread for people to read. To the top you go!

[MUCHO REEF]

I agree 100% and after 6 years it is still being bumped and read. It was one of my favorite discussions and back then most of our discussions were as long as this one. Good bump Jarred.


Mucho

[carloschali]

I have been conducting an experiment in this area for the past 4 months. I have always tried to break things down into the question of "what can i expect from doing this?"

A short description of the objective of my experiment is to find out several main factors of zoa/paly frag and colony growth. I really tried to capture every possible variable when documenting this experiment, although some things are impossible to keep as control variables. A detailed listing of my progress is as follows.

I purchased about 6 different no-brand-name zoa / paly frags from my LFS about 4 months ago.

Each frag was about 20 polyps for the zoas, and about 8 polyps for the palys.

I dont want to copy the entire experiment report thus far into this forum (unless you want me to) so I will summarize the details. This is all summarized in a Microsoft Excel document.


I took the tank parameters every night for the past 4 months.
I did weekly water changes of 17 gallons NSW and roughly 3 gallons top off of RODI.
The photo-period for this duration was 8 am 2 blue bulbs on, 10 am pink and purple come on, 5 pm pink and purple off, 9 pm blues off.
The fish were fed 3 times daily, Reef Cavier in morning, NLS 1mm pellets midday, Reef Mix evening.
The coral were spot fed twice per week, Wednesday and Sunday 1 hour before lights out, they were fed a mix of phytoplankton and cyclopeez.


Every Saturday I would inspect each frag individually, without touching in to get a polyp count.

I tried to place the frags in pairs in different areas of the tank, high flow, low flow, low light.

Z1 = Zoa frag #1
P1 = Paly frag #1

A short summary of my observations are

Z1 - green/yellow , Z2 - yellow/blue - low light, low flow
Z1 grew from 21 polyps to 35 polyps
Z2 grey from 17 polyps to 30 polyps


Z3 - red/yellow, Z4 - green - medium light, medium flow
Z3 - grew from 12 polyps to 25 polyps
Z4 - grew from 31 polyps to 65 polyps


P1 - green/blue, P2 - red/green - medium light, high flow
P1 - grew from 11 polyps to 18 polyps
P2 - grew from 14 polyps to 17 polyps

This was the extent of my experiment because my lights ended up dying and I upgraded to LEDs.

I now have a new experiment going with high end Zoa / Palys
This experiment has been running for 1 week, and i intend to do the same thing with all of them for the next 6 months.


This was my experience, I am not sure that I can officially draw any conclusions from this, as they were not the same species/color in different regions to compare although it appears that my tank showed the best results when placed in a medium light medium flow area. The new experiment will try to address how different placement of high-end Z's and P's affects the growth (and coloration) of these corals.

Wow! this sounds like fun stuff and excellent growth rates... Are you really an actuarial? That would explain your fondness for statistics.
There is one thing that caught my attention and lends validity to some beliefs, and it is the growth rates of the all green ones. My radioactive green zoas grew like weeds and it seems yours did as well. Congratulations on your experiment. I wish I had the time to do something like this.

[wholelottawater]

:thumbsup: Great info

[chiromike78]

So i figured I start this awesome thread up again.
I just picked up my first zooanothinds and they came on a plug. Would it be best to keep them on the plug they came on? Also would it be best to keep them on the sand bed where i have them at now? and last...can you help identify them...Thanks!!

[HeavyWater]

Great thread, this was a very good read! Just my 2 cents, I have about 15 different colonies in my tank and I tend to get the best results when my Zoas are placed higher in the tank (under MH lighting) and are hit with at least moderate flow. I have tried moving colonies all over the tank and I tend to get the best results with this type of placement.

Also, the more expensive the Zoa, the slower it seems to grow regardless of the conditions :)

[KoralKeith]

Great thread!!

[Sar]

This is a really good thread! I have a question: even thought all those parameters are included with growth. What the average growth of PPE, blue/purple hornets, captain america and rainbows because the few what I got a few months back are growing slowly.

[Lynnmw1208]

So i figured I start this awesome thread up again.
I just picked up my first zooanothinds and they came on a plug. Would it be best to keep them on the plug they came on? Also would it be best to keep them on the sand bed where i have them at now? and last...can you help identify them...Thanks!!

I would move the plug to a rock where they can spread.