Xth attempt raising clownfish

[Kathy55g]

I missed a lot of opportunities to try again with raising clownfish....The third attempt hatched on September 1, and resulted in 15 perfect and beautiful juveniles, some of whom are ready to leave home now.

Then I got busy with my kids' school stuff and some of my own stuff, and building a system to really do this right and with greater ease. My friend who supplies me with the nests of eggs got busy too, and our timing was off, and we just could not get it together. Once I picked up eggs a few days early, and they got covered in fungus and died.

Tonight, I just learned that the parent clownfish have just laid a "bumper crop" of eggs covering about a third of the tile! The system is not ready yet, but I have a week to get it there, and since I'm not working this week, it really could happen.

I am so excited!:bounce1:

Just thought I'd share...

Kathy

[mako56]

Cool Kathy, Looks like my eggs will be hatching tonight not on a tile though they just pushed that out of the way. Have to let them get used to it I guess.

[Kathy55g]

Cool back at ya! Good luck!

Hey, how do you like that quiet one pump? I have the 400HH. Haven't plugged it in yet.

[mako56]

The pump works fine not any more quiet than any other pump I think but its been pumping for almost six months now with no problems. I had two of them in the tank when I was filling the tank and mixing the salt lots of flow but not that quiet. Thanks for the luck. One question some of the rots I can see under the 2X microscope really well but some whatever they are are very tiny I can barely see them moving around but there are lots of them are those baby rots you think?

[NicoleC]

Might be ciliates, Mike. How fast do they move?

I intensely dislike my Quiet One 6000. It's too noisy and not very efficient.

[mako56]

I see some things that move really fast but only one or two of them most just barely move around.

[sabalough]

I've ben folowing your thread since you started ,thanks for all the insight on your clown trials. My female occ. is finaly (paired for over a year) ready to start laying eggs. Her belly is busting at the seams hopefully she wil lay us some eggs soon.
Steve,

[Kathy55g]

Steve, I wish you great luck! Still waiting on my personal pair...It is good to have friends whose fish actually spawn.

[NicoleC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6328974#post6328974 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mako56
I see some things that move really fast but only one or two of them most just barely move around.

Might be baby rotifers, or might be males (a bad sign), or something else altogether. I don't think you will find out at 2x. The fast ones are probably ciliates.

[Kathy55g]

Mike, did they hatch?

[mako56]

Yep, caught around fifty or so updated on my thread too. And put some new pics in.:celeb2: :crazy1:

Nicole what power would I need to get?

[NicoleC]

For a nice close-up view, 250x. Maybe 450x for ciliates.
For general identification (is it a rotifer?), around 10x-20x.

[mako56]

I don't know very much about microscopes it has WF 10X eyepieces and 1X or 2X bottom parts. I looked and you can buy other eyepiece and the bottom What would I need?

[NicoleC]

Just do the math. If you use a 2x bottom and want 20X zoom, use a 10x eyepiece.

They probably don't have a 125x eyepiece. Scopes are kind of in the below 100x range and then in the high range, usually.

[spk]

hey there,

Sounds as if you all have your hands full before Christmas.

Kathy, good luck with the next batch. Hope your system is completed in time.

These pumps that you are all talking about, are they for water flow or air?

Steve

[Kathy55g]

they are water pumps. The Quiet One pump I ordered is submersible or can be used outside the sump, which is what I will do.

The air pumps I have are cheap hobby aquarium pumps. They seem to do the job.

[mako56]

So how big should a rot look at my 20X. Like I said I seen a couple that looked really nice and big I think they were rots by seeing pictures of them. But there are allot of something that looks like a pin point but they kinda move around like the rots that I think I got.:hmm3: :hmm5:

[Kathy55g]

pin points are probably males.

[Kathy55g]

I picked up eggs this evening! There are lots of them! I have a feeling they will not hatch tonight, but perhaps tomorrow night. We wait and see....:)

[mako56]

Cool Kathy, do you have you setup all done yet? I ordered another microscope the other day goes from 40X to 1000X should be able to see em now.

[Kathy55g]

You should be able to see the cilia on their cute little rotating heads! 1000x!!!!

Setup is not done. Waiting on some plumbing parts I could not find at HD to be shipped.
Mostly it is done. Tanks are painted and ready to hook up. I have the eggs in one of the tanks on the table so I can just work around it. I figure I have another week to complete.

[Kathy55g]

I came home from bowling this afternoon, and while getting the schmutz out of the larval tank, I noticed what I thought was a dead one--premature hatch! So I sucked it out and thought I would check it out under the scope. Holy clownfish! It's little heart was still beating! I quickly got it back in the tank. It's probably doomed, but after putting on my bifocals, I found another one. Both look like they are rolling around the tank, encumbered by their enormous yolk sacs. When my teenager gets off the upstairs computer, I'll try to post a picture.

I am pretty sure this means that the rest will hatch tonight. I finally got my rotifers in gear, and they are just now grown up enough that I will probably have enough to feed the new brood. I have some thoughts on rotifer culture, but I'll save them for another thread.

I think it's going to be tonight, and I'm really excited!
Cheers,
Kathy

[NicoleC]

My premmies didn't turn out well, but maybe your little guys will make it. Good luck with the main hatch tonight!

[spk]

Kathy,

Wow, cool, are you going to start a new thread on this one?

Hope those prems make it through.

Good luck.

Steve

PS: Did you sell all the others?

[mako56]

I will wish you luck even though you are already a proven ma. :) Lets hear the thoughts. I ordered some Nannochloropsis that you just add a few drops into your rot bottle to feed them and some of that ClorAm-X we well give that a try. Kathy what do you use to get the rots out of the bottle again?

[Kathy55g]

Hi Steve,
Thanks for the well wishes. I am in process of selling the other fish as they grow big enough. They are not all the same size at the same time. As they get to be 1 1/4 inch long, I pm the next customer on the list.

As for the new thread, ... this is the new thread! We've gone off topic a time or two, but


what would I call a new thread?:)

Mike, I will post about rotifers in another thread in an effort not to make this one too long. Thanks for the luck. I am proven to get 10% through, but that really doesn't mean anything. Still a lot to learn, I am sure.:)

News: One little larva swimming around this morning. The eggs look more silver, so I have a feeling it is either tonight, or fungus! I really hope its not fungus....

cheers,
Kathy

[Kathy55g]

still no hatch. Winter. The eggs were at 78 instead of 80 for the first 6 days. ...

Probably tonight.

[Kathy55g]

Sigh.
I thought I should do an iodine dip of the eggs to prevent fungus... I miscopied a unit, miscalclulated, and overdosed by 1000 fold. The eggs are white now, and



dead.

[NicoleC]

Sorry. Next week!

[ediaz]

Sorry to hear,

Using formalin, meth blue etc. it's kind of risky, I would stay away unless you have a history of fungus, I only recomend that for hatcheries that deppend on high yields, increase areation and temp. next time.

Ed

[jnowell]

I'm sorry Kathy, I was so looking forward to seeing your babies and watching their progress, partially so I could gauge mine better too.

If mine lay on a tile this time, maybe I could ship you a set overnight...would that even work? I plan to try and raise the ones that are due to hatch any day now. After that, I'm out of tanks, so I won't have any use for my eggs until after I recover financially from the holidays and the initial rearing setup.

I think you said you have local source, but it'd be my pleasure to send you a batch in return for all your answers, advice, and patience :)

Better luck next time :(

Jason

[Kathy55g]

Ed, thanks, remember last time I snatched the eggs early and they came down with fungus. This time I got the eggs earlier than I thought I was getting them. They had been without their daddy for 3 days, and I was getting worried. Exam of the eggs under the scope revealed that I had a reason to be worried,( and maybe they would have died anyway).

I did not have any methylene blue handy, but I did have lugol's, and I read in the marine fish manual that it could be used. So I thought I was doing a careful calcualtion, but I did not. 1000X is a lot of overkill. A stupid mistake.

Jason, you are too kind, but I don't think it is a good idea to ship eggs :) !! Now it is my turn to watch your progress with your babies while I wait again for the parents near me to spawn.

We live and learn.
Or at least I do.
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

My heart goes out to you. I am really sorry to hear about your loss.

Let us know when the next lot arrive.

Steve

[mako56]

Bummer, but like you said another learning experience and we are all doing it I still am not sure if I have rots or not. :lol: They are so small but someone said they are males then where are they coming from there must be millions of them in the jugs?

[Kathy55g]

Hi Mike,
If you are like me, and need reading glasses, put yours on, and take a look at the liquid in your rotifer jug, or put some into a glass and take a close look. If you can see little whiteish specks moving around, you have rotifers. If they don't move, they aren't happy rotifers. Males are too small to see without magnification. Even for young eyes.

Let us know.

Kathy

[Kathy55g]

Hey Steve,
Thanks for all your support. I am a bit bummed out, because this was a really BIG nest.

A couple of eggs hatched prematurely, and the larvae survived thus far without food, so I put them into a tiny tank inside the 20 gallon, and added rots and greenwater and an airstone. The heater of the bigger tank will keep them warm. One larva looks more vigorous than the other. We'll see if they live. I won't get my hopes up.

The parents should be spawning in a couple of days. Next year is another year!

[mako56]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Yep Kathy you guesed it knocking on that # fifty door here. Well I looked and couldn't see any even dumped one of the jugs out and and checked what was in the strainer nothing. But the little guys go right through. The water is so thick with them that you can almost see it crawling. What do you think they might be? I have been feeding a dry food to them made with fish food and yeast. I just ordered some instant algae cause I am to lazy to grow my own yet looks like I need to get some more rots too. Could I feed them to my babies if I get them collected new years eve? Oh ya anybody know whats up with my spell checker cause I don't spell to good?

[Kathy55g]

Mike, I have no idea what you got growing there. If you put it thru a rotifer strainer and didn't collect rotifers, you ain't got rotifers. If you don't have a rotifer strainer, get one, and in the meantime, use a paper coffee filter. If nothing collects, you ain't got rotifers.

Reed mariculture has live rotifers, and so does florida-aqua-farms.com

[Kathy55g]

My two premies are swimming around in their little tank this morning, just like normal larvae. While I was checking them, I noticed another little guy in the larger tank, and then later I found one with a big yolk sac. I put them both in the little tank with the rotifers and the other 2 larvae and they all appear fine right now. The yolk sac one is resting on the bottom, encumbered by his next meals, and the others are swimming around doing their larval hunting thing. :)

It's a small consolation for losing the big nest, but it'll keep me busy until the next one.

Cheers,
K

[Kathy55g]

Turns out I won't have to kill time for long. My friend's parent fish spawned again yesterday, another big nest!

the yolk sac baby died, but the other 3 are swimming around hunting rots as they should! So far so good!

[Kathy55g]

Still have 3 swimmers!

[Kathy55g]

ditto

[spk]

Kathy,

Good luck with these.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Thanks Steve! so far so good....

When I was expecting 400 to hatch, I was not concerned about these few premies. Now that they are all I have, their importance is increased!

[BrianPlankis]

Kathy,

Every one is important :) Glad you got a few to survive. Looking forward to hearing about your next batch too :)

Brian

[Kathy55g]

fed them some NHBS last night, and their little bellies got big fast. At least 2 of them did. Not sure about the third. He is either advanced, and getting ready to metamorphose, or on death's door, hanging around the bottom of the tank. Maybe both....

The 2 swimmers are starting to change a bit. Fuller bodies, etc. Probably will metamorphose this weekend.

I have to get them out of the tiny tank they are in. It is so small, it is hard to clean. There is apparantly no ammonia (yeah!!!!) but there is lots of schmutz, algae, etc. And no matter how many rotifers I remove, I can't get the concentration down below 20/ml... They just love it in there, and thrive on the 80 degree temp, and the abundant live nannochloropsis.

If i can get the system started the weekend, and I hope to do so, I can move them to a 10 gallon, and start the flow! I will take some pix soon of the developing system, and post pictures in another thread. I am new to plumbing, and this is one of the things one wants to get right the first time.....

Cheers,
Kathy

[Kathy55g]

On Saturday I pick up eggs for the next batch. Let's hope they do not hatch early....

[jnowell]

Good luck Kathy, may the plumbing gods smile on you ;) I can't wait to see pics of your system all set up and running.

I'm trying to plan out a rearing system with a central sump, I too love a good challenge. I'm building a test overflow that I will start a thread on soon, I think it just might work for the tiniest of babies, but I want to test it on my latest hatch (closely monitored) first and see how it does.

Good Luck!

Jason

P.S. At the rate I'm going, I'll probably be down in the 10% range too when it's all said and done ;)

[spk]

Kathy,

Good luck with the plumbing. Had to start mine over again as I have forgotten the space required for the drains from the tanks. But have new bits and will look at getting this all sorted out.

Good luck with the next hatch, looking forward to the progress.

How has the vacation time been?

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Steve, vacation is all good. Not much time to work on the tanks, though with the kids and the holidays, but some progress has been made.

Sadly, but not unexpectedly, one of the new larva died today. The other two are doing well, getting some pigment, and seeming to grow very fast. My brine shrimp did not hatch this evening, I hope nothing is wrong. Hopefully, it is just that the basement is cooler now, and the hatch is a bit delayed. I think the larvae will last on rotifers until tomorrow.

I pick up eggs tomorrow, so wish me luck!

[spk]

Kathy,

Luck with the new hatch. take some pics for us please.
Thanks

Steve

[mako56]

Luck Kathy.

[jnowell]

I do wish you luck! I hope that I too have good luck with my eggs that were layed this afternoon. There are a lot more of them this time, probably close to two-hundred.

I still have 11 from my fist hatch, I hope you get a lot more than that!

Jason

[Kathy55g]

It's gonna be hard to beat you Jason! For a newbie, you sure are doing well! (We really are not competing...)

Good luck with your eggs!

[Kathy55g]

Collected eggs today. They look ripe!
2 little premies hatched amost as soon as I got them home. One egg fell off the tile, and I captured a short video of it under the microscope. It's little heart was beating, but I am NOT throwing it at Ed.:)

How do I post movies here?

[NicoleC]

You have to host them somewhere and post a link.

I have a theory -- sometimes preemies hatch when you move the nest because of the increased activity. The babies think it's dad's signal to hatch. Well, at least my dads seem to give the eggs the go ahead signal. (Either that or the eggs are talking to dad saying 'help us out.')

[jnowell]

Kathy, I maintain the web server for my reef club, and could host a short video or two for you. I'll PM you.

Jason

[jnowell]

Here is the link to Kathy's video. Kathy, I compressed this down to 1.8 Mb., it still looks just as good, but will download much faster. VERY COOL, Thanks!

http://www.wfrs.org/rc/egg.wmv

[Kathy55g]

Thanks, Jason!
Here's a picture of a clownfish preemie:

It's yolk sac is so big, it can't do anything but lie on its back. This one is still alive, and I think it is one of the two that survived the iodine incident.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/56462Preemie_0516.jpg

[Kathy55g]

Now is the bewitching hour. I think I have a hatch. I crept downstairs with a shielded flashlight and counted about 4 larvae in the tank, and its still early. I'll leave them alone now that my curiosity is settled.

I guess I counted the days right this time. Tonight the majority should hatch!

[mako56]

Very cool Kathy and thanks jnowell even with my slow dial up it didn't take that long. Looks like I won't be ready again for the next hatch I ordered those rot cysts but they still haven't made it. GO KATHY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jnowell]

You're welcome Kathy, it's about time I got to help YOU, it's the least I can do. Good luck with your hatch!

Mike, Keep the faith, brother :) Those delivery guys NEVER show up when you want them to. You've got everything going for you now though, I bet your successful soon. Heck, you've learned from all my mistakes, you probably know more than me! :D

Jason

[Kathy55g]

THANKS FOR THE LUCK AND BACK AT YOU! I'll stop shouting now.

It's a pleasure to converse with ya Jason!

[NicoleC]

Very cool video!

[spk]

Kathy,

That is a really neat video clip. Glad to see that the hatch seems to be happening as you planned. Well kind of planned for.

Keep the updates coming.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Update: disappointment.
Only 8 hatched total, and they don't look good. I moved them to a coolwhip container in the same tank with the eggs. Gave them their own airstone, rotifers, greenwater. They remain unimpressed. Not particularly interested in hunting. Sigh. Maybe it is too early and they are still recovering from the hatch. We'll see.

I am keeping the eggs another day to see if they will hatch. I WANT HUNDREDS, NOT 8!

[NicoleC]

Ah, bummer. I wonder why you are getting poor hatch rates? Do you also get a poor hatch if they hatch under the clownfishes' care, or is it just when you've moved the nest?

[jnowell]

I'll keep my fingers crossed Kathy, maybe the 8 were just some that got "jostled" into hatching during the move. I hope the rest hatch tonight. I feel your pain, my new eggs aren't looking so good either..we'll see.

Jason

[spk]

Kathy,

A sad day indeed. Sorry to hear that only 8 hatched, I hope that you get a few more hatching. Routing for you on that one.

Has anything changed in the parent tank to stress the parents?

Take it easy and do not stress too much about it.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Thanks for the kind words. I still have hope that more will hatch tonight. During the day I collected 4 more hatched ones for a total of 12. Most are lying on the bottom of the coolwhip container, still alive... I think. Hopefully they are just too round in the yolk sac to swim. A couple are hunting, but only a couple.

The hatch from last week ( the two that escaped my iodine death treatment) are enjoying their baby brine shrimp. (I brought the BS hatchers upstairs, because the basement is so cold, they would not hatch.) I have hope that these larvae will metamorphose soon.

After a marathon weekend of system building, I can proudly say that I have flowing water. No leaks in the plumbing which means I really did do it right the first time, despite the fact that I know nothing. It is good that even know-nothings can learn. It is also good that Home Depot is not far from my home. They know me by name there, in the plumbing section.

I am, however, too exhaused to take pictures tonight, but I will, soon. In addition I will publish a long list of things that I would do differently, if I had known what I was doing in the first place.

Tomorrow is a work day, so I will have to get up extra early to welcome the hundreds of new clownfish larvae that will, of course, hatch tonight! Did I mention that I am very tired?

[Kathy55g]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6451071#post6451071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NicoleC
Ah, bummer. I wonder why you are getting poor hatch rates? Do you also get a poor hatch if they hatch under the clownfishes' care, or is it just when you've moved the nest?

I am not sure if it is a poor hatch rate, or just bad timing on my part. In the midwest, winter time indoor temperatures fall, and the parent tank is a couple of degrees cooler than it was last fall when I had a good hatch. I still have hope.

I am not even going to peek tonight....For one thing I am too tired to climb the steps again. For another, and perhaps it is a wives tale, the flashlight might be delaying the hatch. I am careful not to shine it on the eggs, but it does shine into the tank when I check on them, ........Who knows?

Cross fingers for Kathy, cheers.

[mako56]

Can't wait for some pics I am kicking around the idea too. hope some more hatch for ya.

[Kathy55g]

Well, I got up early this morning, and went down to check. My light was not on, and it has a funky ballast, so I had to bop it a couple of times and fool with the switch. Suddenly it came on, and....












HUNDREDS, well, maybe 200 larvae, active and swimming!!!!!Some lying on the bottom, but still alive. It is wonderful! I showed my son, he looked at the tank for the longest time, and said, "So?". Oh well, he's 13.

I poured the 12 I caught yesterday in with the hundreds and began the rot and greenwater feeding. I have centered an aquarium light (coralife bulb, I don't know the wattage) straddling the 2 sides of the tank, the water is about 12 inches below it, and it seems right for the larvae. They are mostly swimming and hunting, and not hanging at the sides.:bounce1: :bounce3: :bounce2: :dance:

[jaybro]

Yay! Congratulations kmleah!

[NicoleC]

Woo hoo! Patience pays off!

[jnowell]

:beer:

Great news Kathy!!

[Kathy55g]

Despite the wonderful hatch this morning, I almost had a near disaster! After I fed my babies, I noticed 2 holes in my rotifer filter!
A count of the rots in the baby tank showed that I had only half the rots I needed. I repaired the holes with electricians tape and harvested some more, but Man, that could have been bad news.

Actually it explains why my rots exploded in growth when I left them in funky water with cloramX and seemed to decrease in numbers when I cleaned their jug. I must have been throwing a lot away. More than I meant to, anyway.

[Kathy55g]

Thanks for the well wishes, everyone. When you are the only clownfish breeder for miles around, friends, relative and colleagues just do not understand your excitement over a good hatch! This forum, and the people who frequent it, are wonderful.

[ediaz]

Been told that before:D

[Kathy55g]

Evening of Day 1:
I can't tell if any have died because they are so numerous, and the tank is too cloudy with phyto to see the bottom. There sure are a lot of swimmers! They are in the center and very actively hunting! It has been a good larvae day.

I seem to have contaminated my rotifers with brine shrimp.... I assume that this will not be harmful. They won't breed in there, so they'll just get big, and I'll decrease their numbers with every feeding. I can filter them out of the rots I am feeding the larvae.

The two older larvae seem not to have eaten all their shrimp, because I am seeing some big ones in their tank. I am also assuming no harm here, too. Please correct me if I am wrong.

One of the two may be metamorphosing. It was the one with the big BBs belly. It now is on the bottom hanging out. The other one never swims toward the glass so I cannot tell if it is eating shrimp. It does not seem fat, but still swims a lot. I suppose I may lose this one if he does not get some more calories. I will try some powdered cyclopeze tomorrow.

Cheers,
Good larvae day!

:D
Kathy

[spk]

Kathy,

This is great news. Congratulations.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Thanks, Steve.
25 dead this morning, but it appears not to have made a dent in the overall population. Very vigorous swimming and hunting, round silver bellies on most of them. I don't remember the larvae being this active from my previous batch.

It's all good.
Kathy

[jnowell]

Awesome Kathy! Looks like this may be the big one! I have high hopes for my new nest too, but I think the proverbial "don't count your eggs before they hatch" definitely applies here. ;)

It's great to hear that so many have fat little bellies, and are actively hunting, sounds like a good batch. Best of luck to ya'!

Jason

[spk]

Ok I am very confused.

Went looking for tiles today and not sure what I need or want for the clowns.

Kathy, you are getting your eggs on the tile. Can you describe it for me and let me know where I might find one.

Thanks

Steve

[Kathy55g]

I go to the hardware store, Home Depot is the big box one here. There is an area where they have 4 inch by 4 inch ceramic tiles that people use in their bathroom or kitchen to prevent water damage to their walls, or just to decorate. It is made of kiln fired clay with a glassy glaze on one side, ususally. Actually, the one my friend is using is not glassy, but kind of rough on the finished side. Anyway, the friend's clownfish laid their eggs on the back wall of his 100 gallon tank. My friend just hung this tile over the spot where they last laid the eggs using fishing line tied around the tile and slipping a loop of it over the overflow teeth to secure it in place. He has 2 tiles, which is good, because his fish spawn again the day after a hatch, so when he removes an egg filled tile he replaces with the duplicate empty tile right away.

[Kathy55g]

Of the large hatch, only 2 dead ones this evening. Some are focusing on the dark walls of the tank, but the way the light hits them, they have large silver bellies, so they must be eating. Many are swimming in the middle.

The other earlier hatch two are in a small tank to the side. The larger one has a nice white band on it's head, and is clearly metemorphosing. The smaller one was swimming nicely this evening, looking a little plump on the belly. I was thinking that it was eating bbs now, finally. I went back to look in the tank SECONDS later, and the smaller one is GONE. I did not take anything out of the tank, but that larvae is no where. I looked everywhere. I even found a dead fish body, but it was too decomposed to be my little guy. I do not know what happened to him--a complete mystery....

In sum, I have 10 gallons in a 20 gallon tank with 100+ larvae, Day 3, and 2 gallons in a 10 gallon tank with one lonely juvenile. Next week, when the big hatch larvae have metamorphosed, I'll move him to join them. They should all be eating the same things then.

Cheers,
Kathy

[jnowell]

Day 3 with 100+, I can only dream......Way to go!

Jason

[Kathy55g]

It won't be long for you!
Lonely Larry looked good this morning, having gone to ground the way I have heard they are supposed to during metamorphosis. He still has a full belly.

The baby larvae are doing very well. Only a couple dead this morning. Most have very full bellies-its a wonder they can swim.
I have to remove rotifers once or twice a day. Even though there are so many larvae, they cannot keep up with these prolific critters. This morning I took some out, then I took some more out and fortified them with rotifer diet before returning them to the tank, since I cannot add rots from my culture jug, and I wanted to introduce more fatty acid diversity than just the nannochloropsis that I use to cloud the rearing tank.

Still have some that are not peanut shaped. They are running out of time. I will not be surprised if I come home today to a lot dead. The yolk sac is only supposed to last 3 days or so. This is day 4...

Cheers,
Kathy

[Kathy55g]

The larvae had been doing very well. Only a couple of dead each day. The living were divided into two camps. One group hugging the back wall, and another group swimming in the middle. Hoff's book says that wall huggers are doomed, but they all had full bellies yesterday. Everything seemed to be OK. I fed them some finely powdered cyclopeeze and formula 1 several times throughout the day, there were tons of rots in there, and I fed them some bbs, but not a lot. Ammonia seems to be climbing slightly, so I thought it would be OK to introduce a sponge filter that has been running in my other tank's sump for a couple of weeks. It was kind of funny, when I put that in, I noticed that most of the larvae swimming near it stopped swimming, like they were resting. There was not a strong current near it, but a trickle of water coming out of the top.

Last evening everything looked good. The larvae were swimming around fat and happy.
It was Day 7, and many of the larvae were doing the tail curling thing that Joyce's book says is indicative of impending metamorphosis. Good! Some were getting some dark pigment, and I imagined seeing a tiny white band on top of their little heads.

This morning, half of them are dead. There are hardly any on the back wall. The ones swimming looked thin and fatigued. Feeding powdered food caused some activity, but not as much as I would like to see. I fed them bbs, but I am afraid it may be too big for their tired mouths to get around. I did a rotifer count on the tank water, and for the first time it is down less than 8 per ml. I am enriching some to add right now. I also added a little choramX to help detox the ammonia. I don't understand what happened. My previous batch from September had no losses at this time in the life cycle.

My guesses:
1. Joyce says metamorphosis can kill them all by itself, although my September hatch had no losses before or during metamorphosis.
2.Something wrong with the sponge filter
3. I didn't feed them enough last night.
4. The wall huggers were, as Hoff says, doomed, and this is their time to go.

Anyone else have a thought about this large die off?

Thanks in advance,
Kathy
:(

[Kathy55g]

Um..
5. temperature drop

Every time I check the temperature it is 80F. Today, 73F....... would that be enough to kill them? I have been increasing the tank volume without increasing the heater setting.

Someday, I'll learn how to do this.

K

[ediaz]

Try to keep one of those digital termometers on top of the tank that way you have the temp on your face at all times that is what I do.

I don't know if that will kill them since it has never happened to me but if an enviromental factor was the culprit it will kill more than half.

It seems they are not getting enough artemia? 8 days that is pretty big.

I'll go for nutrition or underdevelopment.

Ed

[Kathy55g]

I wonder if my rotifers crashed in the tank, and that is what killed them.
But it probably would have killed more than half as you say, Ed.
Could be the sponge filter got rid of the rots.

hmmm.

[jacob30]

Not sure. I would say the temp since they're still larvae (if juveniles then definitely not since I kept 5 at around 68deg F for a week recently). If their stomachs looked full I would rule out the rotifers. Maybe a nutrition issue. Were you still keeping greenwater in with them? What are you feeding your Rots? IA right? Had you started them on BBS yet??

Good luck with the rest!

Jacob

[Kathy55g]

I was keeping greenwater in there. I feed the rots rotifer diet, which is nanno and something else, I forget, paste.

I had started them on bbs, but not enough, I think.

I had started them on dry cyclopeeze and formula 1, and I think they were eating it, because their stomachs turned golden, but I am not sure I fed enough. It is hard to know how much. I pulverized it in a mortar and pestle, and then put it in a pill bottle with organza stretched over the top. the organza can also be used to strain bbs, so I thought anything that gets thru would be appropriatly sized. It is a very fine dust like powder. Hard to know how much to put in.

Need advice, anyone got some?
Kathy

[ediaz]

My larvae would not care about cyclo or F1 at that age, 8 days even when they should be bigger than yours, I keep them at 84 deg.

I offer artemia at day 4-5 and watch them eat, the stomach will go from a mix of silver/pink to just pink (or orange)

feed them more artemia and watch them


Ed

[Kathy55g]

Sounds like a plan to me. Thanks Ed.

[mako56]

Sorry about your problems Kathy. And about the juggs question. :lol: Another dumb question. What is artemia?

[NicoleC]

What is artemia?

Sea monkeys! (http://www.sea-monkeys.com/) Or "brine shrimp," if you prefer.

[ediaz]

OMG Nicole!

How do you post that link, you should be banned forever

Sea monkeys!:lol:

[NicoleC]

Yeah, that web site cracked me up. All the special packets of "medication" and "vitamins" you can buy... betcha they are all just flake food with different coloring in 'em. ;)

[spk]

We should create a new thread and call it "fun fish food". There are so many of these sites out there.

:D

[Kathy55g]

My daughter loves sea monkeys--doesn't get the connection between them and the jars in the fridge.

[Kathy55g]

I am pretty sure my troubles are temperature related. I went downstairs this morning and they were at 70F. It seems I plugged the extension cord for the lights to a timer 2 nights ago, and neglected to see that the heater was plugged in to the extension cord too. So when the lights went out, the heater did too. Another half dead today. Down to about 25 larvae.

Now we can test the hypothesis, if more are dead tomorrow morning.

Stupid...but I am picking up more eggs next Sunday. Life does indeed go on.

[jnowell]

Kathy, how many times have you seen the word "stupid" in my posts over the last week, there must be something in the air :( Good luck with the last few, and more importantly, the next set.

I forgot to say "May the force be with you", sorry, it was all my fault. Your Fish-Jedi senses would have alerted you to the heater. I'll do better next time.

[Kathy55g]

My big mistake here was not the heater, but the lack of sleep. Had I not been tired, I would not have done this thing.

Notes for the wisdom page:
1. take care of self first, then fish.
2. document what is done, when.

[Kathy55g]

this morning:
80F temp
only 1 skinny larvae dead instead of dozens.

Headbands starting to appear. Looks like about 25 survivors. Egg pickup on Sunday, so there is hope that I'll get it right this time.

[Kathy55g]

Metamorphosis! Headbands everywhere. I think I have 35 swimmers. Only one skinny dead one this morning.

It is amazing. The larvae, when they were spending the night in the cold, were skinny and lethargic in the morning. As well as half dead.

Now that they have 80F constantly, they wake up not as skinny and plenty energetic. I wonder if they eat in the dark. Doesn't make sense that they should. Or perhaps they burn off the food trying to stay alive when it's cold.

Anyway, I think we are going to do well from here on out.
Cheers,
Kathy
:)

[ediaz]

Remenber see-acknowledge-swallow

Good luck

[mako56]

Way to go Kathy. Looks like mine will hatch tonight while I am at work wish that tile thing would work but I have a very stuborn pair I guess.

[Kathy55g]

so I think I have at least 25. Maybe 35....

All have headbands now, and all are turning orange, and couple had the second band forming.

Also, most are no longer swimming in the middle, but are sucking silicone or the ammonia alert badge or the sponge filter (on very low)

They are eating flake and NHBS, and I am quitting on the rotifers now, although there are still lots in the tank. The sponge filter will eventually take care of them.

I set them up with an automatic feeder today. No easy feat since the feeder does not fit over the rim of these old Oceanic tanks. I had to rig up a false rim to screw the feeder to and clamp that to the tank.

And the big news is that I have eggs this evening that are due to hatch tonight...I will not peek, I will not peek, I will not peek.




I want to peek.
I am going to bed. I will look in the morning. Hope,hope,hope....

[Kathy55g]

Good hatch, hundreds of larvae, one or four dead ones.

:D

Not sure they are getting enough light. I have an old aquarium light over the tank as well as the room fixture. Still they are at the surface...I don't remember this happening with my last hatch....

[Kathy55g]

Came home to a lot of them on the aquarium floor. Not sure they are dead, perhaps just resting.
I put on a stronger light before I left for work, because they all seemed to be at the surface pointing up. Seemed to fix the problem. Now I wonder if it got too bright for them and they went to ground. I guess I'll see in the morning how many dead. I did remove about 14 this evening.... Although it was a good hatch, I don't recall having this happen before....I hope they are OK.

[Kathy55g]

Turns out there were 78 dead. Hmm. could be lighting, could be the chemi-clean the friend used to get rid of slime algae in the parent tank while the eggs were there. Could be my water. Could be just bad luck, that PMD syndrome.

[Kathy55g]

Mine don't look as fat as JNOWELL's....

However, I gave them a shake of the gound up freeze dried cyclopeeze through the organza filter. They did appear to dart for the cyclo dust. Sure looked like they were eating! They did not have an enhanced response to the rotifers I fed later. JNowell, how much time between when you gave the new hatch some flake and when you added rots?

Thanks,
K

[NicoleC]

I'm not noticing an enhanced response to eating, either. They sure to swarm over the BBS, though. I did definately see some eating of flake food this morning from one of the clowns.

They have cleaned out the remaining rotifers and I am not giving them anymore. I took off the stuff I was using to cover all sides of the tank last night; they didn't seem to notice. I think I will start raising the water level and maybe I am ready for a sponge filter, although with only a couple of dozen I have no WQ issues.

[jnowell]

Hmm, I was certain everyone's would act the same. Mine really bacame noticeable about day 3-4. I usually added the powdered food, and then the rots right after (probably 1 minute or less while they were still searching frantically for the source of the smell). When I really noticed it, was after rinsing the rotifers, I literally poured the rots out of the collector into the tank, it was only 7-8 drops, but it probably contained 300 rotifers. These all stayed together in the flow for quite some time. If I add food first, they swarm to the rotifer ball and eat like crazy. If I do not, they just wait until a rot happens to drift by, and eat it then.

I also visually saw them eating dry food on day 5, which is pretty early if I'm not mistaken? I only fed BBS for 3 days, in addition to dry food. If you can believe this, there are probably 15-20 brine shrimp that are maturing in there with them, so they didn't even eat all of the BBS. When I switched to dry food only, morning of day 8, I lost about 10 over the next few days, it's now day 10 and all is well. I have well over 100 left, with probably 20% showing headbands.

I don't have enough experience to know if the metamorphosis timing is right or not, but I know their activity level and survival rate is WAY up for day 10, especially when compared to my previous two hatches. Maybe I'm just caring for them better, and looking for reasons why they aren't all dead ;)

[Kathy55g]

I am sure they were "hunting" the cyclopeeze this morning. They were making quick darting movements at it. But it was maybe a half hour before I gave them more rotifers.

This evening I tried again. This time they reacted to the cyclopeeze, but not as dramatically as before. I poured in some freshly enriched rots a minute after, and they hunted as normal.

But I am not sure there is not something wrong with this hatch. With 75 dead yesterday and 25 more dead this evening, and only a couple of the larvae have any stomach at all.

The survivors are hunting normally and in the middle of the tank. They make the j curve and dart at their prey. Rotifers are disappearing from the tank, but the larvae do not seem any bigger than when they hatched and they are so skinny. I thought they would have tummies by now.

Hmmm. any ideas out there?

[mako56]

Wow that's awesome jnowell. This isn't great for you Kathy but it is for me learning so much. I had eggs laid on Saturday so I am so fired up to actually going to have rots this time I will stay up all night if I have to to catch the fry. No luck at all with the tile I took it out they are to stubborn anyway. Thanks so much all of you for your help.

[jnowell]

I know that feeling Kathy, remember my second hatch? I feel like I've treated the current set worse, and still have tons...I find myself constantly confused.

Maybe mine are just pigs, or spastic. Their energy level is like none I've ever seen. And their tank is two degrees colder than my first set. Sure was hoping I'd stumbled onto something magic, but I guess not.

I had about 10 dead when I got home from work today, not a terrible loss, most were in the process of changing shape, so I guess it was more metamorphosis losses. I think I should have stuck with BBS longer, I'll do that next time. New ones may hatch tomorrow night, one more after that and I'll be out of tanks.

Good luck.

[Kathy55g]

Something is wrong with this batch. They do not have full tummys, and it is the morning of the third day. 12 dead this morning. They are active and swimming, but nothing in the stomach. Sesame seed eyes, with no tummy bulge. No peanut shapes. By now they should have mastered the rotifer hunt.

I think it was the Chemi-clean....

[Kathy55g]

Another dozen dead this evening. Not much hope for the dozen skinny ones left. Torture....watching them die. :(

[NicoleC]

I seem to be sailing through with my clowns. Still no losses, although I think I fed too much BBS this evening-- a couple stuffed themselves so much their bellies were lumpy and sticking out in all directions. I am not seeing any serious effort to eat the ground up flake, and they are not big enough for cyclopeeze, so I guess I am on BBS for a while. I'm going through this bottle fast wince the hatch rate is so low, but I think I will have enough. (Old product.)

Kathy, it could just be a bad batch or larvae. Stressed parents, the chemical additives, something. I wonder if the person who has the parents has introduced anything new to the tank lately that may have brought in parasites -- maybe not affecting the adults much, but too much for the babies?

If I had an adult fish and it was eating, but still getting skinny, I know I would be thinking parasites.

[Kathy55g]

Nicole, try feeding the flake before the bbs. when they are hungry first thing in the morning.

If you get the freeze dried cyclopeeze you can grind it to almost rotifer size....smaller than bbs.

[Kathy55g]

I do think it is the chemical additive. They are so skinny at this point I am thinking of fishocide. The chances of them growing to be normal fish are so slim at this point.

The makers of Chemi-clean sent my friend on his request an MSDS on their product with the chemical name blacked out. No one can find out what this stuff is.

So if you are breeding fish, beware of Chemi-clean. No proof here that it was the culprit, just hundreds of dead larvae and no eating. Previous hatch from same parents are fat juveniles now, right on schedule.

[NicoleC]

I am feeding the flake first. A couple show interest, but that's all. Those couple of fish are *always* looking for a meal!

Chemi-Clean, I thought, was suposed to work by removing nitrogen from the water.

[Kathy55g]

It did clear the cyano slime from my friends tank. And it only affected one coral for a short period of time.

The claim is that it oxidizes waste. I don't know.

My friend has done a 20% water change, and run carbon and poly filters, so I guess we can assume that the stuff is gone from the system. Eggs were laid yesterday, so next friday I pick up.