Culling the Herd

[jwreffner]

Those of you out there who breed marine fish, do you cull frequently the defects? Is it problematic? Can you do it in good conscienous? What is the most humane way to do it?

[rsman]

Trigger FOOD !!!!


do I? nope not no more
but im not breeding anything right now :D

as for the rest.
I culled all defects, its never problematic, the reverse can be true, depending on things like number effected and severity other fish could be harmed by a mass dieoff later on. as for the rest evolution is faster when I help, and is there really a ?humane? way for anything to die, but in the wild most would become trigger food (or other larger fish, remembering small fry can be eaten by small fish :D ) anyway. otherwise that defect would be a trait.

[David M]

I get the impression that a lot of peole keep a lionfish or something like rsmans trigger around for this job, seems to take the pain put of it :) Hey, lions gotta eat too, right :rolleyes:

Richard, good to see you are still with us :cool: Stop by some time eh?

[jwreffner]

Joyce D. Wilkerson recommends freezing them in water. That sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

[NicoleC]

I understand that freezing is actually a very painful way to die, although it looks peaceful to us. The temperature shock method - dumping the fish in water that is icing over - will kill without the slowness and painfulness of getting cold.

A chopping block and cleaver is much more fast and humane. (But harder on us!)

I havent tried it, but clove oil is supposed to anesthetize them and an OD will kill them. Also Euthanol or MS-222, which vets use.

[jwreffner]

Hmmm that is interesting Nicole. I would have imagined that hypothermia would have similar effects on fish as it does humans. But then again we are warm blooded. But then again after reading your post more carefully, I wasn't referring to dumping them in icy cold water, but rather taking warm aquarium water (from the tank lets say) and putting it in the freezer with them to allow them to drop the temp w/ the water gradually. You still think it wouldn't make any difference?

Jay

[NicoleC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6344165#post6344165 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jwreffner
Hmmm that is interesting Nicole. I would have imagined that hypothermia would have similar effects on fish as it does humans. But then again we are warm blooded. But then again after reading your post more carefully, I wasn't referring to dumping them in icy cold water, but rather taking warm aquarium water (from the tank lets say) and putting it in the freezer with them to allow them to drop the temp w/ the water gradually. You still think it wouldn't make any difference?

Jay

To be honest, we don't really understand how fish perceive pain. However, I sincerely doubt that cold blooded fish get hypothermia like warm blooded humans. The "put take water in the freezer" method does not take into account that the fish are probably aware and feeling for a long time, perhaps even when ice crystals have begun to form in the body.

The "shock" method -- where you bring water to the freezing point (but its still partially liquid) and then suddenly dump the fish in will be much a more instantaneous death, and therefore more humane.

Can you tell I've given a lot of thought to this? :) I will probably freak out when it comes my time... I'm hoping to find someone with predatory fish...

[MorandiWine]

As far as I know, fish being cold blooded cant feel cold. Freezing is my prefered method of putting a fish down.

tyler

[jwreffner]

Yeah, i wanna do it the best way possible. I have a friend who is a vet. I will ask her to see what she thinks.

Jay

[NicoleC]

Let us know what she says. If she has experience with fish, that would be even better!

If she can provide MS-222 or another euthanasia drug for you at good prices, that would be my chosen method.

[jwreffner]

No she doesn't have aquatic experience (nor does any vet I know) but at least she would be able to reference the drugs and how cold-blooded animals react to death. She euthanisizes all the time I'm sure. I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks,
Jay

[jacob30]

Back in college one pf my professor's described and had us perform something called "snicking." This involved flicking the fish on the top of the head really hard. I use to do this to my younger brother so I was quite skilled at it ;)

But seriously freezing seems to be the most humane (at least to us). Of course trigger food would be more natural IMO.

[mano]

If I have to I always try to use MS-222. Not sure if it is available to hobbiests though. I've also put a dying seahorse in tank water and into the freezer and it did take a while before it was dead. I felt kind of bad after and would use MS-222 next time.

[Dman]

I sell them as feeders to locals whom have predator tanks.
Dman

[wdt2000]

Maybe Alka-Seltzer to produce CO2?

[jwreffner]

hmmm that is interesting...u ever tried that?

[rsman]

if you have ever seen a fish die from CO2 poisioning you might not think its as kind as it sounds....

though like many things first we cant talk to fish, and especially the dead ones. so the assumption is how they die and if its more or less like it might happen without human interaction. as triggers do eat in the wild, ill go with trigger food.

[wdt2000]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6356832#post6356832 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jwreffner
hmmm that is interesting...u ever tried that?
Yes I have placed ill fish in very small cup and it worked very fast.

[wdt2000]

Hope this helps
http://depts.washington.edu/iacuc/policies/fish_euthanasia.html

"Exposure to a solution saturated with carbon dioxide (CO2): When possible, carbon dioxide should be used from a compressed gas cylinder source. However, neither the 1993 nor the 2000 Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia address the issue of the source/production of carbon dioxide as it relates to aquatic animal species. The use of chemical methods for the production of carbon dioxide, such as a saturated solution of sodium bicarbonate or Alka-Seltzer ®, has been proven quite effective with fish as noted in the literature. When dosed adequately sodium bicarbonate renders rapid loss of consciousness and death (4,6). As a result, the use of carbon dioxide liberated by chemical means will also be acceptable for the euthanasia of fish when compressed carbon dioxide gas cylinders cannot be used. Individuals who have demonstrated competency with this technique to qualified personnel (i.e. aquatic animal veterinarian or his/her designate) should perform the euthanasia of fish by carbon dioxide."


"The 1993 and 2000 Reports of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia concludes that cooling to 4°C will decrease metabolism and facilitate handling of poikilothermic species. This method by itself should only be used to facilitate handling, and it does not constitute an acceptable method of euthanasia since there is no evidence that it reduces pain or is clinically efficacious"

[jwreffner]

Hey cool, that's some good reading! I haven't heard back from my vet friend. Hopefully soon. It will be interesting to hear the response from a professional's POV.

[jjmg]

While removing fish from water to table a sharp knife behind the head is quick, much like the lion fish. I really do feel remorse, but the meal is good.

I've always gone with very, very cold water to shock the fish when I've had one ill. I could never bring the knife into a friend.

[jwreffner]

My veteranarian friend replied to my question about what his opinion would be on fish euthanasia. Here is his response...

I think that freezing them in saltwater is a very humane way of destruction and causes very little pain. They don't feel pain like we do anyway and also don't process information (reason). What I use to inject the swim bladder is a controlled drug and very dangerous to handle.

Looks like freezing is the way to go IMO.

Jay

[LisaD]

some people use clove oil, either as an anesthetic (I know of it being used when tube feeding seahorses) or for euthanasia. if you do a search on seahorse.org, there are several threads, most not especially recent.

[ezhoops]

My choice is Angler food (they've got the fastest attack in the animal kingdom) Swallowed hole and not bitten and chewed into pieces.

[jwreffner]

Sorry, not going to buy an angler just to kill my fish.

[ezhoops]

I don't blame you, I have a species only tank for mine. Had them before I had clowns that bred.

[Kathy55g]

What defects are we talking about? I just sold a bunch of round shaped clowns and one with a notched gill cover. I fully informed the customers of the "defects", and offered a really low price, and they practically beat a path to my door.

This makes me really happy, as the prospect of doing away with a fish I have raised is pretty awful. In addition, it is heartwarming that there are so many willing to go with less than standard (for a reduced price).

In their defense, the fish are beautiful, with great color and vitality. They will be great pets!

Kathy

[jwreffner]

One can only guess as to what types of defects will come up througout the breeding process. Like a fish with a defective swim bladder who sinks to the bottom all the time and can't say afloat. I was being general for those types of situations where a fish can't/shouldn't be sold due to any type of defect.

Jay

[rsman]

in my case fish that looked battered were isolated, if they were able to heal in a fairly quick amount of time they were saved, if not they were trigger food, misbars went into another tank to see what was going to go on with time, some were sold as misbars (cheap) others were trigger food, very few made it back to a normal sale. however some made it into the trigger food pile much much easier messed up jaws, messed up fiins, funky white spots .... whatever they became triggerfood.

[arctic]

I've always bagged them and hit the bag against the wall.

Quick but not nice.

Kev

I think freezing is too slow.

[jwreffner]

According to a vet friend and the University of Washington, http://depts.washington.edu/iacuc/policies/fish_euthanasia.html , Freezing is a humane way of euthanasia. Check the earlier posts.

Jay