Long post - please help me out with my sps problems

[LobsterOfJustice]

Hello everyone,

Long story short: I am having issues with my sps. I am scared to buy new corals because I do not want to lose them. Some of my corals are slowly lightening up, losing tissue, browning out, and/or losing polyp extension. I know that the more information I provide the better, so I will try to provide all the information I can (It might be too much...)

75g tank
30g sump, 30g fuge (the cheato doesnt grow)
DIY beckett skimmer, pulling a few cups of tea a week
mag 7 return, 6 Maxijets on wave timers (Tunzes on the way)
Two 250w 10K XM, Two 110w VHO Actinic
12 hour photoperiod for actinic, 8 hr for halide
All bulbs are less than a year old

Fish (all doing well):
Majestic angel (I know what your thinking... but I am 100% it isnt him)
Mimic Lemonpeel Tang
Two small gobies
Mandarin
Solarensis Wrasse
Male Lyretail Anthias
Two Ocellaris Clowns

I started dosing Kalk about 6 weeks ago, but it is having a hard time keeping up. I am looking into a Ca Reactor
Ca - 370
Alk - 8.3
Nitrate - about 1 (this is the highest it has ever been)
Mg - 1200
pH - 8.28
Temp - 80.0

The same thing has been happening over and over: one coral will lose some tissue and/or bleach, and after it dies or stops, another will start. Here is what is happening with all my corals (you dont have to read it all, but I figured I would put it here in case it helps):

Green Mille - A few weeks ago it lost PE and color, began to bleach. I moved it lower in the tank, it slowly recovered. Moved it back and it is doing well.
Orange Digitata - Lost tissue a few weeks ago in the middle - made a turnaround after a water change. Good color and growth.
Tricolor Nana - Slowly losing color (over the last few weeks). Almost to the point where I would call it bleached now. Had good growth but slowed down.
Chesterfieldensis - Great color and polyp extension, no growth.
Purple Mille - Great PE, color, good growth.
Poccilipora - satisfactory growth, lost tissue in the middle but recovered (I didnt do anything).
Purple Cap - great color, good growth
Superman Monti - lost tissue when introduced to tank, good color, slowly growing
Blue Tort - Excellent growth, good PE, browning out a tad bit
Green table - good growth, losing color (becoming lighter). It is tan now.
Samoenosis - Very dark brown (used to be tan, then green). Slow growth, okay PE
Birdsnest - lost tissue at base, recovered, slow growth, good PE and color
Frogspawn - good everything
Tricolor Cerealis - browned out, now lightening up (getting bleached tips).
Rainbow monti - good PE, alright color, no growth
Orange Tip Mille - Brown, no PE at all, no growth. Looks like the skin is getting sucked into the bone.
Blue Mille - Same as above, with just a tad of PE.
Unknown Green Acro - GREAT growth, color and PE
Tricolor (Unknown Sp) lightening up, losing PE, okay growth
Favia - losing tissue around the edges since I got it last feb. down to a few polyps
Platygyra brain - lost tissue on top
plana - slow growth, good color and PE
Tan cap - Good PE and growth
Green purple rim cap - browned out real bad, then got real light, then began slowly losing tissue. only 1/8 of what i originally had left.

Lost: kimbeecis, red cap, yellow cap, elkhorn, unknown SPS, spongides... probably a few more too

Most of the corals are from the same 3 places (2 of which are other hobbiests).

I am really stumped because AFAIK my water is okay, lights should be fine (Ca a tad low but not enough to kill stuff)... and some corals are doing great while others are dieing.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, I know it was long... all help apprecieated.

[Dog boy Dave]

Cabt tell you what is wrong but in your situation I would add carbon. Increase water changes using well aged water and consider using straight Calcium chloride to get the calcium up. I would also look for damage from some kind of parasite . Maybe more thatn one type as your nanas and caps are suffering. Try dipping one of the affected corals in a solution of about 7 drops lugals in a quart of water. Swish it around real good and see if you have planaria. They also tend to cause the nanas to get real blotchy see the planaria threads for pictures. Often the nanas will loose some tissue and then recover if it is planaria. The planaria are very widespread and if you dont quarantine there is a good chance you may have them. Dont forget the water changes though. How old is the tank?

[PUGroyale]

I may be way off here but based on what you're describing... Id check the NH3. I'm going thru a similar issue, couldn't figure what it was, all levels good... checked the ammonia and it was @ .25ppm. Can't explain why I had NH3 all the sudden :( but my corals were reacting just like yours. hth [hope im wrong too ;)]

[LobsterOfJustice]

I do 20g waterchanges about every two weeks. The tank has been setup for about 16 months... all the corals I have had for under a year. I have a pretty crappy ammonia test kit... but I will use it and test the tank later. I will try the dip too.

Thanks guys.

[orion76]

I'd recommend a 7 gallon water change once a week instead. 30% water changes may cause repeated stress if temp, ph etc. are very different than your tank's values.

Do you test for Phosphates?

Your Mg and Ca are a little low but I doubt this is causing your problems.

Make sure you maintain steady levels, SPS don't like frequent temp swings etc.

Use carbon if you don't already in case the cause is due to some pollutant.

What light do your coral sources use and do you acclimate new specimens to your lights? Those 10K XM's are be bright, especially if they come from tanks with 20K bulbs :)


HTH

[CeeGee]

I have a pretty crappy ammonia test kit

Shouldn't matter as long as it is accurate enough to let you know whether there is any ammonia or not. No amount of ammonia is good big or small. It needs to be dealt with if it is present.

[ReefRockerLive]

Usually SPS brown out due to lack of light, high phosphates, high nutrients.

What coral food do you feed? If it's cyclop-eeze, you should cut down on it because I noticed that it is pretty easy to overfeed it.

Like orion76 says, do the 7g water change a week. It will cause less tank perameter fluctuations.

Run carbon once a week and be sure to swap it out often.

Getting a CaRx asap will really help you out alot.

Good Luck

[LobsterOfJustice]

I am running carbon in a phosban reactor. As far as lighting acclimation goes, if the coral comes from a tank with less light then mine I sit it on the bottom of the tank for a few days, then mount it. I dont feed the corals or test for phosphates.

I will start doing the small more frequent w/c.

[ReefRockerLive]

Since you don't test for phosphates, chances are that brown-outs are due to the high phosphates. I'd recommend the Salifert Test kit since it is the most accurate kit available.

Sometimes corals brown out then die because of the lack of food. I feed a small amount of Cyclop-eeze and Oyster Eggs and the results are great.

[ReefWaters]

I think orion76 has some very good points to look at. I'll comment on a few.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6406293#post6406293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by orion76
Do you test for Phosphates?

Your Mg and Ca are a little low but I doubt this is causing your problems.

Make sure you maintain steady levels, SPS don't like frequent temp swings etc.

What light do your coral sources use and do you acclimate new specimens to your lights? Those 10K XM's are be bright, especially if they come from tanks with 20K bulbs :)
HTH

See what the phosphates say. For that matter, test everything you can afford a test for. It doesn't hurt to know.

I think your Mg and Ca is too low. My tank always looks happier when BOTH my Ca and Alk are not only higher, but STEADY.

On that note, STEADY levels are absolutely essential in my opinion. SPS hate swings of any kind. I would invest in the CA reactor. It was the best piece of equipment I have purchased yet.

Do you have an auto top of system? I highly suggest this as well. Small daily swings in your salinity can cause problems. How are you testing your salinity? If your not already using a refractometer, they are as low as $20 bucks now at Marine Depot. I highly suggest this little piece of testing equipment.

A temp controller is nice but I have been okay without one for a year and half. I do have one on the way though if that tells you anything.

On the light. You have a good set up but if your corals have been under anything but 10K XMs, the color will change. There is nothing you can do about that and that is not a health problem, just a personal opinion on what looks better for each person. In fact, all corals will color up a little differently under all combinations of lamp.

But you have lost tissue and whole corals. That is a problem.

I think you are headed in the right direction on many things. The Tunzes will make a big difference I think. I think you don't have much flow at all. What are the specifics of what your setting up with the Tunzes? Are you using a controller, what model number, how many, etc.?

Test for all your parameters. Check for flat worms. Get ALL your parameters in line and steady with the help of CA reactor and an auto top off system. Do all this and a little more, stay on top of it, and give it some time, and you should start seeing some really good growth.

PS, I think you have a lot of fish for that tank too. :) But that is just my opinion.

Good luck and keep us posted.

ReefWaters
____________________________________________________

[LobsterOfJustice]

Alright, just tested ammonia - 0. I will get a phosphate test kit and test asap. For topoff, I have a tunze osmolator pumping kalk. I use a refractometer and salinity is steady at 1.025. I have a multicontroller for the Tunzes (got it for my birthday) and ordered two Tunze 6000 a few days ago... they should be in later this week.

I did the dip. After putting 7 drops in a quart of water it looked pretty weak, esp considering the lugols bottle says use something like 40 drops per gallon as a dip. I dipped and "swooshed" the tricolor cerealis (which I dont think is a cerealis, just FYI) in 14 drops of lugols mixed with a quart of tank water. There was some stuff in the water - but I dont know if any of it was bad. I dont really know what to look for. There was some detrius, slime, "dust". I then put the cerealis back in the tank, added 7 more drops to the water, and dipped the dying cap. The water got really cloudy with detrius and a little algae. Some small bristlyworms came off, and a few pods. Again, I dont really know what to look for... seems to me a small clear worm could look a lot like slime. I chose to dip those two because they were doing poorly and on removeable plugs - I did not dip the nana because it is encrusted, but I can dip it tomorrow if anyone thinks it's important.

I also have looked on a few other threads about magnesium - it seems mine is acceptable but a little on the low side. I added the suggested amount of B-Ionic (1.5 ml/gal), which is supposed to raise the mag by 15 ppm/day. I think I will do this for a few more days - good idea?

Thank you to all who have helped so far!

[orion76]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6407220#post6407220 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I am running carbon in a phosban reactor.

I prefer a more passive way of using carbon in a filter bag in the sump. Forcing flow through carbon in a reactor can be stressful to your corals each time you change it out.

[MiddletonMark]

It's an odd question, but what salt do you use?
How do you prepare water changes?

You only dose Kalk? Add any other suppliment?

[LobsterOfJustice]

I use a 50-50 mix of IO and Oceanic. I was dosing the ALK part of randy's 2 part and doing water changes but then when I started to get more corals that wasnt enough to keep Ca up. This is why I started using kalk. Now I am using kalk and occasionally randy's alk mix but I dont have any of his Ca mix.

For water changes I have a brute trash can that I fill with water, then add the appropriate amount of Oceanic salt, then IO, then put the lid on and let it mix for at least a week, adjusting SG to 1.025.

I thought running carbon in a reactor was good? Maybe if I test and have phosphates I will start using phosban in the reactor instead and run the carbon in my sump.

[orion76]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6411240#post6411240 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I thought running carbon in a reactor was good?

You will hear different opinions on this issue. Mine is that this method is too agressive. In tanks where the water has some yellowing when the carbon is exhausted the replacing of carbon could cause photoburn when the water clears up too fast, among other things.

JMO, others will tell you they use carbon in a reactor w/o problems :) If you do run carbon in a reactor I'd use a smaller amount, replace it more often and use a slow pump.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Came home today and the orange tip millepora had RTN'd. This was a surprise because although it looked like crap and I knew it was on it's way out, it had looked like this for at least a month.

Tested Mg and it was 1230... I am adding a little more today because I figure it shouldnt hurt.

[MiddletonMark]

What does your new salt water test at in terms of
Ca
Alk
Mag
pH?

How old are these corals [in your tank]?

[PITSTOP]

Too much light.

I cut my metal halides down to 5 hours per day, coral colored up like never before.

Barebottom? Get rid of your sand, up the flow significantly.

Buy a decent calcium reactor - my personal recommendation is the GEO with a through the lid pH controller (American Pinpoint).

How much evaporation do you have? I evaporate 3 gallons per day on my 120 gallon SPS.

I clean out my sump every 2 months - actually disassemble it, scrape it clean with vinegar and a razor blade.

Take out your rocks and scrub them clean with a rough scrubber, dunk them in a bucket of seawater until they are completely clean.

* I recommend these measures because i was where you are now about a year ago - slowly dying corals - different story today!

[PITSTOP]

Few more things...

- I do not dose supplements

- I wet skim like you would not believe, frequently I wet skim 5 quarts of tan skimmate per day, approx. 20 quarts of skimmate per week on average.

- all my trace elements come from regular water changes using RO/DI and Tropic Marin salt, and my GEO 612 calcium reactor.

- I drip Kalkwasser probably once every week and a half.

- I run carbon and phosban in 2 separate phosban reactors.

- I am looking into either UV or Ozone or both

Good luck!

[ReefWaters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6415023#post6415023 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PITSTOP
Take out your rocks and scrub them clean with a rough scrubber, dunk them in a bucket of seawater until they are completely clean.


What are you suggesting that this will do for him? What effect do you think this will have on the tank?

[PITSTOP]

OK, I was in his position using maxijets on a wave timer - they permitted significant amounts of detritus to accumulate in and on the rocks which fueled nuissance algae/phosphates resulting in poor water quality.

Since he plans on switching to a Tunze, I recommend he gets rid of all that gunk, and the Tunze will help keep the rocks relatively free of detritus.

I did this procedure to my rock, got rid of my maxijets, replaced them with 3 SEIO 1500's, Hagen 802, kept 4 maxijets for additional movement under my rocks - the result I am now having speak for themselves.

This is just my advice based on my personal success,

[10" Red Devil]

LOJ,

I am in a similar boat and I have all of the similar kinds of advice. I think there are these things we do that are definitely manditory to keeping SPS, but then there are other things that are not well understood about keeping SPS. It is amazing to me how people with almost identical tanks and regiments can have such varying results. Im talking about being just as diligent in keeping their tanks. Yet somehow one is successful and the other is not. I definitely believe there are people who can keep sps and have them be colorful, but largely they do not even know why. They have that secret ingredient(s) and just dont know it.

I dont want to discourage you but to encourage you to keep trying and hopefully you will find that holy grail of getting your sps to color up!

[LobsterOfJustice]

If I remembver correctly my w/c water tests around Ca-410 Alk- upper 8's, pH 8ish. I will test all those parameters tomorrow to make sure. A note on the low pH: my tank used to hover in the high 7's low 8's until I began dosing Kalk - now it is around 8.2-8.3 every time I see check it.

The corals are mostly frags (a few mini colonies) - the newest ones were aquired around 2 months ago, my oldest I have had for 10 months.

I have thought about the light issue - I will shorten the photoperiod, but why am I having these problems now?

I am not barebottom, SSB. I generally follow BB methodology, but just have a sandbed for asthetics. Back when I had to manually top off I was losing 2 gallons per day. I have an auto topoff now so I'm not exactly sure how much I evaporate now.

I do not dose anything other than the kalk and randy's alk solution (and now a little bit of B-Ionic mag). Also, about the detrius on the rocks - yes the MJ's do let a lot settle, but I turkey-baste the rocks almost every day and change out the filter sock afterwards. I will only take the rocks out as a last resort - some of my corals are doing very well and encrusting, and I am very happy with my current aquascape.

As said before, Ca reactor parts are on the way as well as tunzes. I got a GenX PCX pump for my skimmer, and got the plumbing parts in the mail today. I will be re-plumbing my skimmer tomorrow, which hopefully will make it much more efficient (running on a mag 9.5 now).

As always, thanks everyone.

[ReefWaters]

PITSTOP, I see where your coming from but I don't believe it will help Lobster. First, I don't believe he has much nuisance algae and scrubbing the rocks will get rid of 90% of the micro fauna that has been slowly increasing over the past year. I think that will send him in the wrong direction. But a good idea for a tank that needs a complete overhaul.

Lobster, I think if you want to stick with the game, take the advice you have gotten here to tweak your present system and methods to find your nitch. Just don't buy any wild colonies until you get the results you are looking for consistently.

Good Luck

[orion76]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6416531#post6416531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 10" Red Devil
I definitely believe there are people who can keep sps and have them be colorful, but largely they do not even know why. They have that secret ingredient(s) and just dont know it.


IMO it's stability.

Even if your tank is suboptimal for keeping SPS, many will adapt and survive and some will even thrive...

If stability is lacking however the corals have nothing to adapt to and either RTN or slowly but surely die away over a period of weeks to months.

Some people will always have problems because they keep messing with their tanks to fix a mystery problem that is killing their corals, while what is really killing the corals is the continued messing with the tank :)

[ReefWaters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6418071#post6418071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by orion76
IMO it's stability.

Even if your tank is suboptimal for keeping SPS, many will adapt and survive and some will even thrive...

If stability is lacking however the corals have nothing to adapt to and either RTN or slowly but surely die away over a period of weeks to months.

EXACTLY! I completely agree. You hit the nail on the head.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Picked up a salifert phosphate test kit today - p04 undetectable in my tank. I am still working on the skimmer upgrade... turned it on today and had a few minor leaks, fixed them up (hopefully) and letting it dry overnight. The tunzes are not in yet (ordered them through a LFS - it was actually cheaper than online).

Everything is kind of hovering in limbo in the tank - not getting worse or better. I'm hoping the tunzes, skimmer upgrade, and Ca reactor will solve my problems. I will keep ya'll updated.

[MiddletonMark]

Please do :)

[tgfrench]

Lobster

I feel your pain. I've had limited sucess with SPS 's to date. It seems I'm sorta hit or miss with something also. Maybe its just the adaptation thing going on. I've got a few corals that I purchased that are growing well and others that just sorta languish in my tank. One acro all but wasted away till I fragged it and all the frags colored up and are starting to encrust (go figure). All of my parameters have been fairly stable for the last year but just not much growth till lately. I added a 900 gph closed loop 2 weeks ago so I hope things will improve.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Update

On Sunday Dr. Mac gave a presentation at one of our local club meetings and brought some corals with him. I picked up three mini-colonies, and a frag (all acros) from him, and an efflo frag from another reefer. All seem to be doing well.

The base of the tricolor nana has lost tissue. It is wedged between two rocks - I have noticed while basting that detrius settles here. I am guessing the lost tissue is due to lack of flow. I still have not recieved the Tunzes - called the LFS numerous times. I know they are on their way, but I dont like waiting this long. They cant give me a straight answer as to why they are already two weeks late. I'm not worried about them scamming me or anything, but think they are handling the situation poorly.

Just hooked the skimmer back up tonight. I needed to do some replumbing and was waiting on some pieces. Also had to solve a microbubble problem. I have ordered all the parts for the reactor except for the reactor itself, which is being made.

My lights are approaching their 1 year mark - I have ordered 10K Reeflux to replace my XM's.

Water parameters as of tonight:
SG - 1.026
Ca - 400
Alk - 8.0
Mg - 1260
PO4 - 0
NO3 - about 1

Couldnt check temp because my pinpoint thing was being stupid. Whenever I check it is within a degree of 80. However, I never check it at night - is it likely my temp is swinging at night? How much would it have to swing to be having the effects I am seeing?

Is there some kind of digital thermometer that tells you the highs and lows over a 24 hour period?

[redwinger02]

MY opinions here.
1. Phosphate kits are a waste of money the algae in the tank will consume any detecable phosphate. (at least with a salifert kit)

2. As stated before stability is key

3. Halide photoperiod is too long IMO should shorten to about 5 hours.

4. Get rid of the carbon it just leaches P04

5. How stable is your alk? I find this to be a major factor with sps. Ca is not as big of a deal if it swings but alk swings is more detrimental.

6. Nitrate is a little high but shouldn't make a big difference IME.

7. The flow will help you out considerablly IMO. Stuff will settle less and will get skimmed out quicker before it has time to decompose.

8. Bulbs might be a little old and the spectrum has shifted at 12 months. Replace them.

9. As some have stated SSB. I doubt this is the cause but might want to consider getting rid of it.

[ReefWaters]

redwinger02 has some very good points.

However, I am running the same photoperiod and and I have a shallow sand bed. I dont seem to have any problems.

But like he was suggesting, I have a lot of flow, I do not run carbon, and my alk is usually stable.

Are you using a heater and/or chiller to keep your temp stable?

My opinions:
If your using any mechanical filtration, I would stop.
If you dont have a refugium, I highly suggest setting one up. The bigger the better but even a half gallon will have benefits for any tank. Especially sps tanks. They remove nutrients and add food to the tank that the sps thrive on.

Your parameters look pretty good IMO. Just keep doing what your doing, including what you have planned on doing, take your time and dont do anything too quickly. Spread changes apart. When you change your lights, dont do anything else to the tank that day. Leave it alone for a few days, other than feeding or fixing emergencies, before you do anything like a water change or adding the Tunzes, etc, etc.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Thanks for the comments guys.

The halide photoperiod was shortened to 5 hours about a week ago, and I put a layer of screen over the tank to help too.

I just started using carbon after christmas. I am reluctant to stop because IMO the clarity of water has improved. I was also having problems before running the carbon.

My alk seems stable but I dont check it every day. I am hoping a Ca reactor will help here.

I have been using a filter sock washed off every few days. I stopped last night. I have a refugium but the cheato hasnt grown since I got my skimmer last spring.

[orion76]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6534143#post6534143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice

Is there some kind of digital thermometer that tells you the highs and lows over a 24 hour period?

The Aqua Controller from Neptune Systems does that as well as for your PH and other parameters you may wish to monitor.

Probably too pricey if you just need it as a thermometer though.

[ReefWaters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6537242#post6537242 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I have been using a filter sock washed off every few days. I stopped last night. I have a refugium but the cheato hasnt grown since I got my skimmer last spring.

Okay, some people may disagree but the reason I dont use mechanical filtration is b/c I believe the stuff you are removing is more important to the microphauna of the system than the benefits of removing it. My cheato did not take off for months. Now Im removing half of it almost weekly from my 10g fuge. Give it time, but I would bet now that you are not using the sock, that your cheato will grow faster, the skimmer will work better, and the corals will start perking up. The few times I have used mechanical filtration, I had crazy things start happening.

Good luck.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Update:

Good news and bad news, but good for the most part (I think). Since my last post I have lost more (5-7?) corals. BUT I have not lost any corals in over a month. I have swapped the Maxi-jets for Tunze 6000's and a multicontroller. The Ca reactor is now keeping my Ca and alk steady at 450 and 9.3. I took the filter sock off except I run it for a few hours after I baste the rocks. I switched the lights out for Reeflux 10K and the colors are coming back to some of my corals. I still have little to no growth, but I am hoping this is just a matter of time. I am ordering a second phosban reactor and some phosban this week, eventhough I am not reading any phosphate on the salifert kit (I have heard you can still have too much phosphate even if it's too little to show up). I will start out very slowly with it. I am also going to order some polyfilters because I figure they can't hurt.

Thanks to everyone who has helped.

[ReefWaters]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Now just don't put any new corals in the tank until you see better coloration and some growth out of 95% of the corals in the tank now. Just take your time and keep up with your reading. Don't ever do anything to the tank unless you have read 10 different opinions on the issue.

Keep up the good work! Good Luck! :D