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Randy Holmes-Farley
01/04/2006, 12:23 PM
Specifically, for the magnesium part.

If you can obtain magnesium chloride hexahydrate, use the exact same total volume of magnesium solids (equal to about 8 cups), but instead of using all Epsom salts (1 64 oz package), use:

63% (5 cups) magneisum chloride hexahydrate
37% (3 cups) Epsom salts

Use this exactly as otherwise described. This improved recipe will not cause any significant increase of sulfate, chloride, sodium, or magnesium when used with my two part recipe:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/chem.htm

I'll be putting together a whole article on it for February Reefkeeping.

I'll also have a recipe there for part Epsom salts and part ESV or Kent magnesium supplements for those who cannot get the mag chloride but who want ionic balance.

Happy Reefing. :)

herefishyfishy2
01/04/2006, 01:26 PM
Use this exactly as otherwise described. This improved recipe will not cause any significant increase of sulfate, chloride, sodium, or magnesium when used with my two part recipe:

Randy,

I hope it will increase Magnesium. Was that a typo?

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/04/2006, 01:35 PM
Semantics, probably, but it maintains magnesium where it is. Not using it allows magnesium to decline :)

herefishyfishy2
01/04/2006, 01:37 PM
ahhh....gotcha. It can be used to increase as needed correct? Say from 1100ppm to 1250?

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/04/2006, 01:45 PM
If you were not using calcium chloride to supplement calcium, I'd use something more like 9.7 parts by volume magnesium chloride to 1 part Epsom salts. That's because there is no chloride excess to offset by the extra Epsom salts. :)

EDIT: I changed the value above slightly.

herefishyfishy2
01/04/2006, 01:49 PM
Understood......once again thank you sir!

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/04/2006, 01:51 PM
:thumbsup:

Happy Reefing. :)

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/04/2006, 06:40 PM
Note: I edited my posts above with slightly different values. :)

BeanAnimal
01/04/2006, 11:17 PM
can you suggest a good source for the magnesium chloride hexahydrate

PatMayo
01/04/2006, 11:50 PM
Randy I am new to this chemistry thing. I am using your type 1, 2 part recipe.
I don't quite understand the ionic balance portion and how the improved verson using the chemical above differs from the original. For a newbee like me could you be real basic and give me the low down for #1, the reason for part 3 and #2, exactly how the new version of the 3rd portion is better, and finally exactly what does that 3rd portion do? I see that none is added until after you have done through a gallon of the part 1 and 2.

Regards,

Pat

(Sorry for being so niave.)sp?

herefishyfishy2
01/05/2006, 05:18 AM
Beananimal,

I found a 50lb bag of it at Costco (being sold as ice melt) a few weeks ago after searching around Denver for a long time. Just keep your eyes open and look at the ingredients on the back carefully. This one I got I believe is from nasalt? HTH

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/05/2006, 06:34 AM
can you suggest a good source for the magnesium chloride hexahydrate

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=742838

Whaledriver
01/05/2006, 09:03 AM
I have ordered from Harveysalt.com with no problems at all.

ostrow
01/05/2006, 12:31 PM
That's per one gallon of water, right?

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/05/2006, 12:40 PM
Yes, for the magnesium part of my DIY additive, the 8 cups total solids is put into 1 gallon of fresh water.

pwilk20
01/05/2006, 08:21 PM
Hi, I was able to find Mag pellets (Dead Sea, Israel) ice melt at my local HD. Is your formula of 63% (5 cups) magneisum chloride hexahydrate for pellets or flakes? Thanks.

Paul.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/06/2006, 09:48 AM
It is for flake. I do not know the bulk density for the pellets. It may be similar.

Whaledriver
01/06/2006, 12:31 PM
I think for calcium pellets are about 10% more dense than flake so the same should go for magnesium??? Just an idea to toss out.

ostrow
01/06/2006, 12:38 PM
Randy the harveysalt stuff is pellets. At least, what I got is pellets.

mbbuna
01/06/2006, 12:46 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6429873#post6429873 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Yes, for the magnesium part of my DIY additive, the 8 cups total solids is put into 1 gallon of fresh water.


is that INTO one gal. of water or to MAKE one GAL. total?

ostrow
01/06/2006, 01:02 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6438416#post6438416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbbuna
is that INTO one gal. of water or to MAKE one GAL. total?

Your question does not make sense. The displacement of water caused by the magnesium is fairly negligible after dissolution, at least IME. I fill maybe 15/16 of a gallon.

mbbuna
01/06/2006, 01:47 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6438515#post6438515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ostrow
Your question does not make sense. The displacement of water caused by the magnesium is fairly negligible after dissolution, at least IME. I fill maybe 15/16 of a gallon.


then why did i just mix it and have at least 1L left over?

thats adding 8cups to 1gal. and thats all going to mix in with out any vol. change:rolleyes:

Hef
01/06/2006, 02:02 PM
Randy, quick question about Alkalinity and Baking Soda.
I've been using your Recipe for close to 2 years now, Dowflake, Baked Baking Soda, and now MgCl.

I read a lot of stuff, and am concerned about the Baking Soda part. Is there anything wrong with the Constant Addition of Baking Soda to a Tank as the only method of keeping up with Alkalinity usage? I find if I stop dosing Kalk I really need a lot of the Baking Soda part of the recipe to keep the Alk at around 9.0 dkh. Seems like around 80ml per day, this wouldnt be a problem, but I recently lost a couple of small SPS frags to RTN and the only change to my tank were the constant additions of the recipe. The Kalk I'm sure keeps my tank more stable, just wondering if all that baking soda could cause a problem. I know it has a large PH addition factor. Maybe if I found a way to dose it contiually thoughout the day.

Any thoughts on that.

Thanks
Hef

BeanAnimal
01/06/2006, 02:48 PM
I think randy meant to type "to make 1 gallon total volume"

mbbuna
01/06/2006, 03:36 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6439347#post6439347 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I think randy meant to type "to make 1 gallon total volume"

yes me too. thats what the directions in the 2 part say but i just wanted to get it clarified

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/06/2006, 03:43 PM
The directions are more detailed in the article (old and new). It is into water to make 1 gallon total. If you made a bit more volume, just use a bit more each time. :)

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/06/2006, 03:45 PM
Is there anything wrong with the Constant Addition of Baking Soda to a Tank as the only method of keeping up with Alkalinity usage?

Not when used with this recipe. When used alone, sodium will very slowly rise relative to magnesium. The alkalinty part won't raise pH appreciably if you use it raw.

Hef
01/06/2006, 05:38 PM
So is PH the only concern when using an Alkalinity Additive?

ostrow
01/06/2006, 07:35 PM
You know, as I think about it, I always put the 8 cups in first, then add the water. So the overflow is just the bubbling/mixing process.

Sorry, didn't realize you'd lose a liter adding the mg to a full gal of water. Yowza.

mbbuna
01/06/2006, 08:30 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6441445#post6441445 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ostrow
You know, as I think about it, I always put the 8 cups in first, then add the water. So the overflow is just the bubbling/mixing process.

Sorry, didn't realize you'd lose a liter adding the mg to a full gal of water. Yowza.

No worries:) i just drink too much coffee:D

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/07/2006, 05:44 AM
So is PH the only concern when using an Alkalinity Additive?

It is the only thing that could limit how much you add at once, if that is what you mean.

spykes
01/12/2006, 06:41 PM
hey randy can you come up with a formula for the pellets version of the new formula? because i only got the mag pellet version

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/13/2006, 06:24 AM
If someone has a scale, and can tell me how much exactly how much one cup weighs, yes, otherwise, in my upcoming article, I state:

"The recipe above is based on the bulk density of the MAG Flake as supplied by the manufacturer. They also sell a pellet product. It may be OK to use, but probably has a slightly different bulk density (they do not provide it that I can find). Exact values for the magnesium part are less important than the other parts, and when using pellets I’d just follow the directions as stated here for flake unless better information is supplied in the future."

spykes
01/13/2006, 05:37 PM
cool randy i'll try to get my friend to weigh a cup of it.

Hef
01/13/2006, 06:29 PM
Randy, I have the Dead Sea Works Mag Flake (Lab Grade).
Weighed on my scale, to 4 decimal places.

One Cup = 0.364 pound = 165.107 622 68 gram

ostrow
01/13/2006, 06:34 PM
This may have been asked before, Randy. But I can't find it or remember the answer, and it fits in this thread.

Why not add the Mg component either to the calcium or to the alkalinity component?

Rook
01/13/2006, 09:46 PM
Randy, what if you could get lab grade chemicals, what all would you prefer for your three part solutions? Would you still use a mixture of magnesiums? And, what is the baking sode made of? Calcium carbonate, is that the salt name?

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/14/2006, 06:46 AM
Randy, I have the Dead Sea Works Mag Flake (Lab Grade).
Weighed on my scale, to 4 decimal places.

One Cup = 0.364 pound = 165.107 622 68 gram

Thanks, but its the pellets that I need data for. :)

Why not add the Mg component either to the calcium or to the alkalinity component?

If you add Epsom salts to the calcium part, calcium sulfate will precipitate. If you add it to the alkalinity part, magnesium hydroxide and/or carbonate will precipitate.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/14/2006, 06:48 AM
Randy, what if you could get lab grade chemicals, what all would you prefer for your three part solutions? Would you still use a mixture of magnesiums? And, what is the baking sode made of? Calcium carbonate, is that the salt name?

The improved recipe is just fine and leaves all the top 7 ions in seawater in balance (shown in the upcoming article), but gettting other chemicals would allow it to be a true two part, rather than three. Using sodium sulfate and magnesium chloride, for example, would allow that. I have not determined an exact recipe for that, however.

Rook
01/14/2006, 09:09 AM
So, if I can get lab grade calcium cloride, sodium carbonate (or is it bicarbonate), magnesium sulfate and magnesium chloide hexahydrate: you would not recommend using the lab grades over the road salt or food grade chemicals?

The seven ions are: calcium, carbonate, magnesium, sulfate, chloride, sodium, and potassium; right?

So, are you saying that using a more pure form of the first list of chemicals may leave the seven ions out of balance; particularly potassium?

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/14/2006, 11:45 AM
Lab grade isn 't really a grade per se. Lots of different grades are used in labs for different purposes. The highest grades will be way to expensive for anyone to use in a reef.

Yes, a really pure calcium chloride without any potassium will allow potassium to drop unless you add it.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/14/2006, 11:48 AM
From the upcoming article:

"The 7 most abundant ions in seawater, in decreasing order of concentration, are chloride, sodium, sulfate, magnesium, calcium, potassium, and bicarbonate. Using this new recipe will keep all of these ions in an appropriate ratio (detailed below). "

tcottle
01/14/2006, 02:37 PM
Ack! You are such a tease. I guess we will have to wait till Feb to get the rest of the article ...

:D

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/14/2006, 03:14 PM
:lol:

It won't be long. :D

Rook
01/16/2006, 07:33 AM
Okay, new question :)

Can you dilute the parts one and two mixes with extra water but with the same amount of chemicals and still maintain balance? I asked because I'd like to setup a drip for parts one and two, but even a drip goes pretty fast and I don't want to over dose. So, I though that if I needed about a cup of solution per week of each part I could dilute the cup into a gallon of RO water and let the one gallons drip over the course of a week.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/16/2006, 04:28 PM
Yes, you can dilute them to your heart's content. :)

Rays
01/29/2006, 05:03 PM
Randy the harveysalt stuff is pellets. At least, what I got is pellets.

Their price list, lists both pellets and flake.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/30/2006, 05:13 AM
OK, good to know. :)

Reef55
01/30/2006, 07:25 PM
Randy, going with your ratio for non-kalkwasser users, you said 9.7:1 ratio should be used. This means The recipe for 1 gallon of solution otherwise is 5 cups to 3 cups, so a total of 8 cups put into 1 gallon of water. With the new ratio, this would be:

90.7% (7 1/4 cup) magneisum chloride hexahydrate
9.3% (3/4 cup) Epsom salts

added to enough RODI water to make a total solution of 1 gallon.

1) Is this correct?
2) What would be the PPM of magnesium?
3) How much would 1 cup solution added to 100 gallons increase magnesium by? ( I think with an answer on number 2 I could figure this out) :)

Thanks :)

Mark

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/31/2006, 05:21 AM
Yes, that is a good mixture. :)
It is about 47,000 ppm magnesium.
You can use the calculator here to determine amounts to add:

Reef Chemicals Calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

Reef55
01/31/2006, 06:46 AM
Great! I used the calculator, but just so I know how to do it...

250 gallons in system = 946 liters

Current magnesium = 1130 ppm
Desired = 1330 ppm

So, I need to increase by 200 ppm, or 200 mg / L.

946 liters x 200 mg / L = 189,200 mg of magnesium I need to add.

Your solution is 47,000 ppm, or mg / L.

189,000 mg / 47,000 mg/L = 4.02 L

4.02 L * 0.26 gallons/L = 1.06 gallons of solution

Same answer I got from the link using the Randy's Magnesium recipe dropdown :)

Reef55
01/31/2006, 11:30 AM
Also, for those wanting to know how long this will last you...

The magnesium chloride hexahydrate in the 55 pound bags I bought it in weigh 0.445 pounds per cup.

So a 55 pound bag of magensium chloride hexahydrate mixed in the above ratio with epsom salts yields about 800,000 ppm. You can use figure from there depending on your magnesium usage how long it will last you :)

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/31/2006, 04:16 PM
Same answer I got from the link using the Randy's Magnesium recipe dropdown

:thumbsup:

I'm glad it gave the right answer. :D

Happy Reefing. :)

Herpervet
02/02/2006, 02:37 PM
Randy,

It sounds like your diy mix is similar to Seachem's Reef advantage Magnesium.

For those of us with large systems; where can we find the Mag chloride hexahydrate?

Seachem's product is fairly cheap already:

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5607/cid/1549

Ixthys
02/02/2006, 03:28 PM
Are you releasing an updated version this month? Seem to remember reading that somewhere (maybe earlier in the thread).

Herpervet
02/02/2006, 03:56 PM
Ixthys: Randy shows his new version above.

Randy,

I searched and found MgCl hex. but the cheapest I could find was about $35/kg.

http://www.advance-scientific.net/Properties.asp?code=MA111

Seachems product at $10 per kg translates into about $15/kg cost of Mgcl fraction assuming they are using the same ratio of Mag cloride to epsom salts you are suggesting. (this number assumes epsom salts cost contribution to their product is negligable)

Am I missing something? Seachem apparently gets a pretty good deal on Mgcl hex. or they use a lot less in the mix.

Herpervet
02/02/2006, 03:59 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6632403#post6632403 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef55
Also, for those wanting to know how long this will last you...

The magnesium chloride hexahydrate in the 55 pound bags I bought it in weigh 0.445 pounds per cup.

So a 55 pound bag of magensium chloride hexahydrate mixed in the above ratio with epsom salts yields about 800,000 ppm. You can use figure from there depending on your magnesium usage how long it will last you :)

I should have read this before:

Where did you find your 55lb bag?:o

Ixthys
02/02/2006, 06:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6421260#post6421260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
......I'll be putting together a whole article on it for February Reefkeeping.....

I'll also have a recipe there for part Epsom salts and part ESV or Kent magnesium supplements for those who cannot get the mag chloride but who want ionic balance.

Happy Reefing. :)

This is what I'm talking about...

Randy Holmes-Farley
02/02/2006, 06:16 PM
It sounds like your diy mix is similar to Seachem's Reef advantage Magnesium.

No it is not, That product is essentially Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) and sodium chloride, and is not ionically balanced. ESV and Kent sell products that are likely magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate, and are ionically balanced.

Randy Holmes-Farley
02/02/2006, 06:19 PM
I'll also have a recipe there for part Epsom salts and part ESV or Kent magnesium supplements for those who cannot get the mag chloride but who want ionic balance.

That actual part I didn't do. Sorry. I don't have a recipe that includes Epsom salts and those liquid products. If you use about 3 parts of my Part 3 and 5 parts of those additives (based on magnesium content), it should be pretty good. :)

DrBDC
02/02/2006, 07:36 PM
MgCl is 42 bucks for a 50 lb bag shipped from Harvey products to Missouri after shipping charges.

Randy Holmes-Farley
02/05/2006, 02:10 PM
Here's the improved recipe:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part
Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

the contents:

Introduction
Comparing the Two Primary Recipes
Recipe #1
Recipe #1, Part 1: The Calcium Part
Recipe #1, Part 2: The Alkalinity Part
Recipe #1, Part 3: The Magnesium Portion
Recipe #1, Part 3A
Recipe #1, Part 3B
Recipe #2
Recipe #2, Part 1: The Calcium Part
Recipe #2, Part 2: The Alkalinity Part
Recipe #2, Part 3: The Magnesium Portion
Recipe #2, Part 3A
Recipe #2, Part 3B
Dosing Instructions
Substitutes for Dowflake Calcium Chloride
Substitutes for Dead Sea Works Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate
Where to Buy the Materials
Calculation Rationale for the Recipes
The Design of the Calcium and Alkalinity Parts
Residual Ions from the Calcium and Alkalinity Parts
Residue Remaining from Recipe #1 when using Recipe #1, Part 3A
Residue Remaining from Recipe #1 when using Recipe #1, Part 3B
Summary
Reference Links

DrBDC
02/05/2006, 03:25 PM
:thumbsup:

RicoJ
02/05/2006, 07:19 PM
Just curious, has anyone done a price comparison between the home made magnesium additives and lets say ESV or Kent?

Rico.

johns
02/05/2006, 08:12 PM
That actual part I didn't do. Sorry. I don't have a recipe that includes Epsom salts and those liquid products. If you use about 3 parts of my Part 3 and 5 parts of those additives (based on magnesium content), it should be pretty good.

Randy- Could you translate this a bit more clearly for me.?

Are you saying, after you add 1G each of parts 1 and 2, and you are ready to add 610ml of part 3 (or 305ml for recipe 2), you should actually add 0.375 X 610ml of epsom and 0.625 X 610ml of Kents or ESVs.

Herpervet
02/05/2006, 08:30 PM
I have had a tough time finding dow flake and ordered this product.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5650/cid/1620

Randy,

Any thoughts on how it will substitute for dow flake? i.e. should I reduce the amount by 20%?

Randy Holmes-Farley
02/06/2006, 06:15 AM
Just curious, has anyone done a price comparison between the home made magnesium additives and lets say ESV or Kent?

No, but we can. It depends a bit on what you buy, but lets say about 19$ for 55 pounds of MAG Flake.

That's about $3.50 per pound of actual magnesium.

Kent:

One gallon of Kent Tech M is 70,000 ppm magnesium. I'm not sure of the density, but let's assume it is close to 265 grams (0.6 pounds) of magnesium per gallon. It costs about $18.95. So that is about $32 per pound of actual magnesium.

ESV is similar, but a little more expensive per pound of magnesium.

Randy Holmes-Farley
02/06/2006, 06:17 AM
Randy,

Any thoughts on how it will substitute for dow flake? i.e. should I reduce the amount by 20%?

Unfortunately, no. I can't comment on either its purity or whether is is hydrated or anhydrous calcium chloride as they do not say in that link. If I had to guess, I'd pick it to be an anhydrous version.

RicoJ
02/06/2006, 11:55 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6676918#post6676918 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Just curious, has anyone done a price comparison between the home made magnesium additives and lets say ESV or Kent?

No, but we can. It depends a bit on what you buy, but lets say about 19$ for 55 pounds of MAG Flake.

That's about $3.50 per pound of actual magnesium.

Kent:

One gallon of Kent Tech M is 70,000 ppm magnesium. I'm not sure of the density, but let's assume it is close to 265 grams (0.6 pounds) of magnesium per gallon. It costs about $18.95. So that is about $32 per pound of actual magnesium.

ESV is similar, but a little more expensive per pound of magnesium.


WOW!!! :eek2: