YWG - Day 6 and still kicking

[NicoleC]

To my astonishment, my baby YWG's are still alive here on day 6, and seem pretty vigorous. A few weeks ago, I lost my S-strain in a long power outage (I was busy keeping the broodstock alive instead). I had a weak L-strain culture, and I decided, what the heck, I'll try it. My larvae appeared to maybe be larger than Amy's; I know my parents are huge and fat. So it seemed worth a try.

I've been feeding the babies enriched L-strain and some frozen S-strain that I had saved earlier. I don't know which they are eating, but I would suspect it's the L. There may also be some ciliate contamination working as a first food.

I don't have as many as I did with the live S-strain, but I do have a goodly number, maybe in the range of 100-ish. (This hatch was excellent; I'd say 90%, so I had a LOT of babies to start with.)

I am busy trying to ramp up my L-strain despite the strains of feeding. I don't know if I will have enough food for these guys, but it is proving to be a heartening experiment.

[mano]

Congrats Nicole! Good luck with this batch!

[Armando]

Good Luck Nicole! Keep us posted.

BTW my pair is doing great. No color changes so far.. I won't attempt to raise the eggs but it is cute to see them together.

[TippyToeX]

Awesome to hear Nicole! Keep up the good work. :)

[Kathy55g]

great news! May the force be with you.

[spk]

Nicole,

This is fantastic. congratulations and keep it going and the updates flowing.

Steve

[NicoleC]

They seem to be a couple of days behind in their development compared to the last batch. But they are alive and moving well.

They MUST be eating the L-strain, because otherwise I should have a nice healthy L-strain culture in there otherwise, and before feeing time I can't see ANY rotifers. I am sure this means I am not feeding enough, but I am feeding all I can.

I'm going to stop adding the frozen S-strain and see what happens.

[ediaz]

Originally posted by Master Jedi kmleah
great news! May the force be with you.

I was seduced by the dark side to get better yields long ago...

Nicole, why don't you disect a larvae to see if they are eating?

Ed:strooper:

[Kathy55g]

Ew...

[Kathy55g]

/\ Comment from a biologist

[ediaz]

Why Ew?

[jnowell]

LOL - Ew, is that a scientific term?

Nicole,
Good luck on the balancing of culture vs. hungry babies. Not to be morbid, but I guess it will kinda have to balance itself out somehow. I keep lots of live nanno in my larvae tank and the rotifers almost sustain themselves, but I don't have 100 mouths after them either (only 16).

Great work, and good luck. Once I get these A. Clarkii's through, I want to try something a bit more challenging (not that they weren't a challenge). Reading your threads inspires me...thanks.

Jason

[NicoleC]

Nicole, why don't you disect a larvae to see if they are eating?


Well, I don't have a microbiology lab in my house, for starters. :) Kmleah has all the nifty lab stuff.

At this point, these guys are about the width of a standard razor blade edge, except the head which is a bit wider. Even if I had a 100x stereo dissecting microscope, I would just succeed in mashing them. I'm afraid to find out what .5mm diamond dissecting blades costs.

On the other head, if they weren't eating, they'd be dead by now. So I know they are eating *something.*

Just L-strain went in the tank this morning... we'll see.

Jason - I don't know if the idea that the larvae will thin out to the available food will work. Chronic sub-nutrition could take it's toll development-wise, which could kill them anyway or produce unhealthy/deformed babies that would need to be culled anyway.

I am NOT taking pictures or getting attached to this batch. I am NOT! I just keep telling myself, it's an experiment...

[spk]

Nicole,

Good luck with your experiment. Keep the updates coming.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6436556#post6436556 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ediaz
Why Ew?

You see? Ed never gets my jokes...

Ew, yuck, cutting apart a live larva! What if it bleeds?:eek:

[Kathy55g]

Sounds like a successful experiment to me! You could probably cut your rot propagation time in half, and only culture the L strain, which is more readily available. Very worthwhile experiment!

[spk]

Kathy, Nicole,

I remember reading a reply from Randy that if you harvest your rots they will grow quicker. Therefore the more that you harvest, frequency that is, the better the yield will be.

Steve

[NicoleC]

50% every 36 hours should be harvest enough! I have 3 buckets going and feed half of a bucket every 12 hours.

[Kathy55g]

Yes, I remember Randy's post of that information, and although I had read it before, it did not sink in to my brain until then.

Part of my problem with getting rots re-established from the refrigerator days, was that there were some dead rots in there. Dead rots rot, but they do not necessarily sink. I could siphon all I wanted, and still find dead ones when I sampled from the top. Rotting rots certainly slow the culture down, probably even worse than old rots do.

My next strategy for recovering a rot culture from the fridge, will be to keep the overall volume small for 3-4 days, but harvest 50% each day to remove the dead ones and the old ones, and allow the young population to take over. If I keep the volume to 1/2 gallon at first recovery, I can expand to 2 gallons starting 3 days before the clownfish eggs hatch.

In fact I am beginning an expansion tonight. I have 1/2 gallon of 150 rots/ml, perhaps 300 when I get home tonight. They look very healthy with lots of eggs and activity. For the next 3 days I will double the volume each day. I expect the clownfish eggs to hatch Sunday morning. Unless I am wrong... It has happened before.

Nicole, in keeping with Randy's suggestion, I assume you are taking rots from each of the three buckets at every feeding? If not, you might want to. It might help with the shortage issue. Just a thought...
Cheers, and best of luck. We are all pulling for you!
Kathy

[NicoleC]

I think harvesting 50% every day and a half is plenty. Density is increasing from the prior harvest, so I am getting better than population doubling in that day and a half.

It would triple my maintenance time and then some to restart every bucket twice every day. Plus I think it would increase the risk of crashing my cultures -- heaven forbid all at once!

[ediaz]

Raise the temperature to 84 that will get your densities high.
I know you don't have the space but for others, I start a new culture in a bucket, tank, anything, everytime i clean/siphon my cultures. I have 3 main cultures and about 10 "emergency" cultures all over the basement, that way I don't have to worry about crashes.

Oh Kathy , you never did the frog? I remember this girl she opened up removed the heart, still beating, and threw it on my book, the book still have the stain.Then I won't tell you about my first whale necropsy, with a machete.

Ed

[Kathy55g]

ha, ha! Ed, I am a research biologist. I will not give you details on what I do every day, but suffice it to say, I cannot be squeamish.

In biology class we only dissected the formaldehyde fixed fetal pig. No frogs...

I wonder why girls throw beating hearts at you, Ed? What did you do to her? :)

[NicoleC]

I don't know why, but these starting doing better when I took OUT the heaters. So they are staying about 70-72. Maybe I'll put a heater back in one of them and see how it does compared to the others, which getting the same regimen. I think I have enough to feel comfortable stealing a cup to start a 4th culture.

If it didn't get so cold at night here, I'd stick a bucket or two out back.

I didn't do the frog, or the worm, or any of that. I went to school with dirt under my fingersnails most days from planting, weeding, hoeing, composting, etc. and my prissy little citified biology teacher wasn't going to ever be able to get me to kill something just for the sake of looking at it when there were perfectly good pictures in the book. I was a meek child; I don't know what possessed me to stand up and refuse.

Besides, I'd already dissected dead rabbits and squirrels by then. I guess the difference was I found them dead already.

Kathy - only 1/2 gallon? Isn't that cutting it back pretty far? I sort of hibernated mine by cleaning and restarting a couple of buckets, then had them on light rations twice a day. Pretty low maintence; just dumped out half every few days and topped off with water and Clor-Am-X

[Kathy55g]

Yup, it's a half gallon of young, reproducing rots at around 200 rots/ml. Tomorrow there will be 1 gallon of them, and by the time the eggs hatch there will be 2 gallons of them. At 200 rots per ml, thats 1.5 million rots.

I'll need 1/3 gallon to feed my tank (6 gallons initial volume) at 10 rots per ml. At my historical success rate, I never have enough larvae to clear the tank, but there is always hope that this time, I'll have lots of larvae.

If they crash, I have made friends with the University lab down the street that has a jumbo sized rotifer room, and will donate to my cause.

Not likely to crash, having made every mistake known to man and rotifer, and with 50 % harvest each day. Now having said that, I expect I will return home to stinking smelly swamp water.


Cheers,
Kathy

[jnowell]

I keep a five gallon bucket under my work table, I use it to syphone the bottom of the rearing tanks into. At any given time, I'd guess that it's got a density of 30-50 rots per mil. I've just been using this as my backup plan, I syphon until it's full, then dump about 7/8 of it out, and start vaccuming again. It gets kinda smelly after a week or so, so I dump it, wash it, and start over again (providing that my rots look good in the rot culture and rearing tanks).

It's easy, smelly, and works effectively. So far, I haven't had to start a new culture from it, but I figure it works good for a backup. It's funny how when you try to maintain a culture, they crash, but if you throw some in a bucket and pay no attention to them at all, they grow and reproduce. Maybe I'll try that with my next set of fry ;)

Jason

[Kathy55g]

Sounds like its working for ya!

[NicoleC]

It's the 24 hours since I stopped the frozen S-strain. Other than a couple dead ones I saw floating around, I still have plenty of larvae.

I seem to have achieved parity with the rotifers -- I did see a few last night before feeding. Rotifer density took a big jump overnight for some reason, so I will be starting at least one more culture today. As these guys grow, they are going to need a LOT more food in the coming week or two and right up until they are ready to tackle BBS.

Provided I get that far this time!

They are quite energetic and very speedy on demand -- which matches my previous notes, so perhaps there has been no underfeeding issues. I think I will try to get some pics today and I think I had better start a log sincce it looks like these guys are going to have a chance at making it.

Last time I has a mass dieoff the night of Day 9. I never did determine a reason, unless there were too many rotifers in the larval tank and they caused an oxygen problem. That is certainly not the case now, so we shall see...

[bjolly]

very cool. what do you plan to do with the babies?

[NicoleC]

Sell 'em! I've got more buyers (fish stores, importers) lined up than I could possible service.

[bjolly]

that's great - it's always good to see more fish being captive bred.

[NicoleC]

A few pics:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day8top.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day8side.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day8front.jpg

[LotR Clown]

Great job Nicole. Hoping you have continued success.

[mano]

Nice pictures Nicole. Keep them coming!

[NicoleC]

That looks like a full belly, doesn't it? I hope my little guys are pigging out.

[Kathy55g]

Looks full. :)

[parshmar]

I have been waiting for this thread. I'm glad things are going well so far. thanks for taking pics, eventhough you weren't going to;)

Out of curiosity, the water is green because it's feeding the rots that you add? making sure they stay alive? Is there any reproduction of the rots in the larvae tank as well?

[jnowell]

Looks like full bellies to me too, cool pics Nicole!

Parshmar - I feed my rotifers in the rearing tank, and they reproduce there too, but I add phyto to keep them nutritious, not to encourage reproduction. My fry still eat them faster than they can reproduce, so I'm constantly adding them anyways.

Speaking of, how are the rotifer populations Nicole?

[NicoleC]

I have been waiting for this thread. I'm glad things are going well so far. thanks for taking pics, eventhough you weren't going to;)

Thank you. The pics are because I think these guys official deserve a "Batch" designation. And I needed to see how they compare to the other batch.

Out of curiosity, the water is green because it's feeding the rots that you add? making sure they stay alive? Is there any reproduction of the rots in the larvae tank as well?

The water is green to keep any rotifers in the larvae tank alive and eating, and hopefully more nutritious after the enrichment wears off. Rots certainly could reproduce in the larval tank, but there are very few in the larval tank after the gobies have had breakfast/dinner thus time around.

The other reason is that for some reason larval can see to hunt better if the water is slightly green. This is an aquaculture "fact" but whether it applies to YWG in particular is unknown.

Speaking of, how are the rotifer populations Nicole?
Very good. Once you reach a certain point, double is a heck of a lot of rotifers. I started a new culture today and I think I will start another tomorrow.

[spk]

Cool bannanas, Some awesome pics Nicole.

Sounds as if you have your Rotifers growing well again.

Thanks for the posts and pics.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

Nicole, are you using live phyto in the larval tanks or the other stuff?

[ri]

Very cool! Sure hope they keep eatin' and growin'!

ri

[NicoleC]

Nicole, are you using live phyto in the larval tanks or the other stuff?

I'm using the Reed Rotifer Diet -- the home stuff that's a liquid. It was all that was available locally. Playing with this batch was kind of a last minute decision. :p

I'm feeding the rotifers a mix of this and a yeast-based diet -- the mix seems to be working very well. But the home Rotifer Diet is way too expensive to use regularly.

I just started a live phyto culture yesterday that I want to use for the larval tank, but I guess starting from the FAF discs takes quite a bit longer than from a live culture, so it may be a while yet before it's of any use at all.

[parshmar]

I'm glad that your food situation is filling in.

If I read correctly, you think that they are probably only eating the L-strain, correct? Did you also say that this batch was bigger than your last batch (in physical size, not numbers). I'm glad they are eating the L-strain for you. I know you've had some "issues" that have made the rot cultures prolematic. Keep up the good work and best of luck to you as well. Oh yeah, thanks for sharing.

[NicoleC]

Yes, it appears they are eating only L-strain. You can't see -- they are too small -- but the L is dissappearing and that's all the food they have in there, except for the inevitable siliate contamination.

This batch does not appear physically larger than my last batch, but mine do seem to be bigger than the larvae Amy is getting, which may explain why she had no success with L-strain. Her pair is older than mine, so if that is true it would either be variation among broodstock, the cohabitation with shrimp (seems unlikely) or some care parameter (food, temperature, etc.) .

It's too soon to say for sure based on one batch, but survival rates in those first few critical days appear to be much better using S-strain, but I am not terribly disappointed with the numbers I have.

[LotR Clown]

Nicole,
How much and what kind of yeast are you adding? I'm having a bad time trying to keep my culture alive with IA. I bet I'm using too much and it's fouling the water too quickly. I know the densities are not going to be as high with yeast, but at least they will hopefully stay alive longer.
Thanks,
Kevin

[NicoleC]

I'm using Culture HUFA from Salt Water Creek. You use just a tiny, tiny bit. The dose instructions per liter are in hundredths of a gram!.

If you can't keep rots alive with IA, you are probably right -- you are either feeding too much or not cleaning your cultures enough. Try dumping off the top half in a bucket and dumping out the other half and rinsing out any grunge, then adding the top half back to the original cycled bucket. Do this daily. It keeps the cultures nice and clean and is easier than siphoning, IMO -- but I use 3g buckets. In maintenance mode with low densities I was doing this every other day. I also use Clor-Am-X. (When feeding, I am using the clean top half for feeding, then dumping out all but the last grunge in the bottom into the clean bucket; cleaning every few days.)

It sounds wierd, but I have more rotifers and more success this way than trying to save them. Randy recently posted a thing about harvesting helping keep the cultures young, which makes sense in a twisted way and must be why this routine is working for me.

[jnowell]

Kevin, I have had the same results as Nicole, keep 'em clean, and harvest 50% daily. Even with 50% harvesting, my culture density increased rapidly. The females live for almost 2 weeks, but only reproduce for a few days, and it's early in their life span. If you don't harvest, you end up with old rotifers that eat all the food, but don't reproduce (from Randy Reed).

I have been using (secretly stealing) Nicole's bucket method in addition to a 10 gallon continous culture. The buckets are cleaner with less work, and provide back-up in case I destroy a culture. Another week of this, and I bet all of my cultures will be in buckets.

Nicole, not to jinx you or anything, but isn't this the dreaded 9th day? I hope all is well with them.

Jason

[NicoleC]

Tonight. Last time everything looked dandy on day 9, but in the morning...

Jason, you're not stealing my "method!" Madness, perhaps, but no method. I seem to have a black thumb when it comes to rotifers, and I've just gotten a little obsessed about them. :)

[parshmar]

Looking forward to day 10 and continued success :thumbsup:

[mako56]

Very cool Nicole and these are yellow watchman gobies right? I am asking another dumb question. I had these jars of rots going and I think when I harvested I wasn't thinking and took them all. Oh well that’s done I ordered some more but I kept the jars going now the water is turning green and when I look through it with my 20X microscope I see all these tiny green colored things swimming around could that be the green water algae?

[NicoleC]

At 20x it's not phyto your seeing. You may have a mix of phyto (green water), and the swimming things are some sort of ciliate that has been eating the phyto.

Any chance you can get a pic? Preferably with a meter to gauge size? If you are culturing some sort of ciliate and can keep it going, it could work as first food for some of the tiny, tiny fry out there.

(Yes, yellow watchman gobies. Except my pair is now gray :rolleye1:)

[Kathy55g]

Sounds like rotifers to me!At 20x you should be able to see the shape of the rots. Do they look like rots?

[jnowell]

Mike,
The "swimming around" comment makes me think cilliates too. Can you see little "specs" in the water with no magnification?

Good luck tonight Nicole, I'm going to do my "healthy YWG fry dance" before bed tonight....don't ask! :D

Jason

[mako56]

Sorry to fill your post with pics but here is what the jugs look like. I never started a green water thing this just happened I am not sure what it is.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/mako56/IMG_0715Small.jpg

I ordered a new microscope and should get it soon 40x - 1000X but I don't know if the pics will turn out any better here is one that I just shrunk a little under the 20X. You can't see much just how many there are I don't believe they are rots and there are to many to even think of counting in a drop.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/mako56/IMG_0713Cropped.jpg

And here is a pic at the normal pixel.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/mako56/IMG_0714Cropped.jpg

[NicoleC]

Nice lookin' phyto!

The pictures are too blurry to tell much. If they are really fast swimmers, that would seem to indicate ciliates.

Good luck tonight Nicole, I'm going to do my "healthy YWG fry dance" before bed tonight....don't ask!
Why didn't I think of that?

[mako56]

Ya I know the pics are bad there are some things that just twirl really fast all over the puddle but just a few most of it just moves real slow. Do you thing I have a green water culture going?

[Kathy55g]

It does look like greenwater in the jug.

[Kathy55g]

Nicole, where are you? Inquiring minds want to know how your babies are!

[NicoleC]

Gimme a break, it's west coast time here! Lights just came on, and I don't have as many babies as I did. :( It's not nearly as bad as last time, though. I still have 50-ish left; given I started out with fewer that's a pretty good improvement. This must be a dangerous development time for them.

There are several dead bodies on the bottom, and I saw a very weak, thin larvae that looked half dead trying to swim. Half of the surviving babies looked like they had a huge growth spurt over night; the other half look the same size. So maybe not all of them went through whatever happened last night, and will do so today/tonight. Hopefully not; I don't want to see those numbers dwindle more, especially with the dangers of metamorphosis stil coming up.

I'm going to be late for work as it is, but I wil try to get pictures tonight to see if ther eare any noticable differences that may explain this.

[NicoleC]

It may not be as bad as I thought. By the time I left the house it looked like I had more gobies, so maybe they were hiding behind the heater or something where I couldn't see them. They are at an age where they want to rest for the night in a sheltered location (against the wall,s behind the heater, etc.)

[Kathy55g]

I confess, I forgot about the time difference. Sounds like you've had success! Is this the beginning of metamorphosis, or does that happen later with gobies?

[NicoleC]

Day 25ish for meta. A ways to go yet.

[NicoleC]

A few Day 10 pics:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day10top.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day10side.jpg

[Rascal]

Nicole,

Curious. How long are your lights out for, and is it complete darkness?

[parshmar]

How were things when you got home, Nicole? obviously there are some living :thumbsup: should we take that as good news :)

[NicoleC]

I saw another skinny and weak one (clearly dying), but overall the group looked vigorous and happy. By now they are hanging out around the edges a lot instead of bunched in the center like they did for the first 6 or 7 days.

I run a 16/8 light cycle. It's not completely dark since there is a big reef tank on the other side of the room (about 20' away) with a strip of blue LEDs for moonlights, but otherwise it's pretty dark.

Just for reference -- you can see that this batch seems to be much fatter than the last batch. Here's day 9 (top) and day 12 from the previous batch:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day9topAM.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day12top.jpg

The food is larger than the last batch (S-strain rotifers) but there is less of it, so energy expended for food is probably a wash. I think the difference is the new enrichment process I'm using. (Thanks, Edgar!)

[TippyToeX]

That's a big difference! Way to go and congrats on the success thus far. :)

[Rascal]

Some larval species, especially shallow water reef species, have increased feeding opportunities at night due to the moon. As well, plankton migrates on a diel cycle. I'm noticing that many of the negative events are occuring at night, and am wondering if these larvae have evolved to feed with the assistance of moonlight at night.

Another thought...Have you monitored pH at night, or more specifically just prior to the lights coming on?

[NicoleC]

That's an interesting thought. They do need rest, however, and they seem to almost sleep at night. A few will be lazily swimming around, but most will hang near the bottom or along the edges at night (moreso that what I just mentioned about about them starting to do that more anyway.)

I have not monitored pH with this batch, but with the last batch I did the aeration test several times in the evening/morning/midday with no significant change. I also put a probe in for a couple of nights after the last batch had their Day 9 dieoff, and the pH did not drop very much at night.

Normally, I have a pH probe on the other tank in the room and only get a .01 to .02 drop at night. So Cal house; no such thing as "airtight" or "insulated" and I keep the window in that room cracked anyway. (Funny sidebar -- I got new windows, and with the windows cracked about 2", I still have less drafts from the new windows than the last ones!)

I also buffer the water changes, which are every two days. I think that helps a lot.

A moonlight might be an interesting experiment. I don't think I have a good grasp of normal yet, so I don't know if running such an experiment would be productive right now. Maybe in another couple of batches?

[Rascal]

Yea, I wouldn't suggest changing too many variables at once. But maybe something to consider down the road. My gut says that they will feed at night.

pH will be more of a concern as organics (dead rotifers, algae, larvae waste, etc.) build up. I would definitely continue to monitor those pH fluctuations.

Keep up the excellent work.

[NicoleC]

You read my mind. :) I just took the pH monitor off the reef tank and put it in the larval tank. The reef tank is always fine anyway...

pH was a little low in the larval tank, so I started a super-slow buffer drip that should run most of the night.

I don't doubt that given enough light they WILL feed at night, but it may be counter productive, because they don't get the rest they need. They certainly aren't shy about feeding during the day, so I wouldn't think they were normally nocturnal. They are also not photophobic, and only slightly phototropic.

I've got quite a merry group of rotifers in the larval tank now. I guess I few have been able to avoid getting eaten. Guess I'll skip AM feeding, and if still pretty dense by tomorrow night I will have to thin them out so I can replaced with enriched rotifers

[Kathy55g]

Edgar has not enlightened me. How are you enriching the rots?

[NicoleC]

Feed twice daily (AM and PM) with rots that have been enriching since the previous feeding in Ratio HUFA (http://www.saltcreekinc.com/products/rhufa.htm).

It's pretty inexpensive to start with, and a little tiny drop goes a long, long way. If I have used half the bottle by the time it expires in a year, I'll be surprised. It'll be from overfeeding, not volume of rotifers to enrich!

The babies are waking up this morning now. It's so cute -- they clearly don't wake up in a hurry. A good portion of them were asleep on the bottom, a handful were just floating in the current. Most of them I couldn't find where/how they slept.

[Kathy55g]

A relatively lower pH will keep ammonia ionized, and non-toxic.

I don't know if it is the same for gobies, but with clownfishes, it is not necessarily bad to have a pH of 7.7 say.

[Kathy55g]

Thanks for the info! :)

[ediaz]

Edgar has not enlightened me. How are you enriching the rots?

Well Nicole always gets my jokes.


I don't know if they are eating, hope they are, but if the enriching is being done right the larvae will grow faster. Some of my clownfish grow so fast they take artemia at day 4 with no problem.

The only problem I see with the RH is the size of the bottle, it is targeted to hatcheries that will use it up in a week, maybe small breeders like us should split bottles when ordering it ships really well.

Nicole , what are those white dots on the 9 day pic? Rots? If those are rots those fish are days away form artemia.

Ed

[NicoleC]

I don't know if they are eating, hope they are, but if the enriching is being done right the larvae will grow faster. Some of my clownfish grow so fast they take artemia at day 4 with no problem.

Gotta be eating. And that one day's set of pics sure looks like a stuffed tummy to me.

Nicole , what are those white dots on the 9 day pic? Rots? If those are rots those fish are days away form artemia.

I'm sure all the dots are rotifers. The Day 9 pics are actually from the last batch, and that batch would not take artemia at Day 16. Small mouths? Just preferred rotifers? I don't know. Once I had the artemia in the tank, though, it got really hard to see the gobies for all the brine shrimp swimming around. :rolleyes:

It's hard to say if they are bigger than the other batch that survived this far and therefore might take artemia sooner. They look fatter and rounder and more developed. The other report on Breeder's Registry cited artemia at 15 days; I don't recall oceanarus' schedule for sure but I think it was 20 days.

The only problem I see with the RH is the size of the bottle, it is targeted to hatcheries that will use it up in a week, maybe small breeders like us should split bottles when ordering it ships really well.

Very true! However, Salt Creek did not make be feel in any way unwanted or unimportant just because I placed a tiny order. I will probably try their shrimp diets when I get around to trying to raise pistol shrimp. (One of these days.)

Split bottles might have to be locals -- once you open it, you have to refrigerate it. I have a hard time getting locals to do group orders from Brine Shrimp Direct, and they have lots of non-breeder products.

[mano]

Those larvae look great Nicole! I hope they continue to do well. Great pictures too!

Salt Creek makes excellent products. I used a lot of their enrichments and Artemia products over the years at the hatchery I was at here. It's good to hear that they treat the hobbiest like they do the large scale hatcheries.

[NicoleC]

Everyone loves pictures, right? Here's day 11. It's a bit fuzzy, but the bulge in the midsection is heartwarming.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day11top.jpg

No more significant losses, so that Day 9 thing seems to be pretty particular to Day 9. I saw one floater; no bodies that I noticed on the bottom.

[ri]

Is this the longest you've you been able to keep the fry going?

ri

[NicoleC]

No, the ones I keep referring to as the "last batch" did not survive metamorphosis; the last stragglers died at Day 30.

There have been other batches, but none of those batches survived past 5 days, for one reason or another.

[TippyToeX]

He has a yellow/golden hue about him too. Has that always been there as intensely as it seems to be in the last pic?

[NicoleC]

I am not sure if that is an artifact of the photo setup I use or not. There is not yellow visible to the naked eye, but to the naked eye they mostly look like glass slivers with 3 tiny black dots :)

You can see THROUGH them, so how much color can they actually have? They may have some tint that is getting picked up and amplified, but I think it looks brighter than it really could be. The yellow tint shows up in all the pictures that I do that are top-down with side lighting (except for the very first few days) mostly around the eyes and belly.

[parshmar]

Thanks for the update.

Any idea how many you have right now?

[NicoleC]

60-70? That's a rough guess. You can can go blind looking for these guys in the larval tank. They are about 3.5mm long and .75-1.00mm wide at the head.

[NicoleC]

Yesterday, I counted 85 once and 95 the next time. Wow, I thought. I carefully siphoned the bottom of the tank and examined all the detritus. It was somewhat of a shock to realize the *thousands* of black dots on the bottom of the tank are all that's left of so many babies -- their black eyes.

Well, despite a healthy culture of rotifers and stable pH and no ammonia, it think I lost at least half of my babies today. Quite a few are merely drifting through the water and overall they are very quiet and lethargic. It doesn't look good. I performed a water change and thinned the rotifers. We'll see what the morning holds.

[NicoleC]

I forgot pics:
Day 13. You can clearly see a tail fin. They are getting black dots near the end of their tail, too -- a strip forming?
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day13top.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/nicolecastle/ywg/day13side.jpg

[NicoleC]

P.S. Interesting -- I have most babies settled in to sleep on the bottom when lights went out. (And they look fine and not sick or anything. I hope) My last batch never did really decide to actually settle.

[BrianPlankis]

Keep us informed Nicole! This is so very interesting!

Brian

[NicoleC]

Well, I am losing my gobies, and I don't know why. :( Since I posted two days ago, my population has been steadily declining. It's now Day 15, and I have maybe 15-20 gobies left. Many are lethargic and very thin, but there is plenty of food. So I don't know if they are dying because they stopped eating, or they stopped eating because of some other factor.

[Rascal]

If you haven't done so already, I might suggest taking some pH readings over the next 24 hours.

[NicoleC]

I have a probe in the tank, so I see the pH all the time. pH is pretty steady at 7.8-7.9. Granted I don't know what the pH SHOULD be for YWG larvae, but that seems like a pretty safe range?

One of the bigger, more developed one has his pelvic fins now, and more black spots along the tail, some different sizes (like the ones you see in the day 13 side view above.) Everyone should have their pectoral fins now.

I have not seen any settling except for the one night that I mentioned above, but it's a bit early for that.

[Rascal]

Why do you say that is a pretty safe range though the larvae still die. It's low for adult fish...why would it not be low for larvae as well.

I don't want to come off sounding critical. Lord knows, you're doing all the work. If anything I am living vicariously through your experiences, and I just want to see continued success.

[NicoleC]

It's not a low pH for clownfish larvae. I don't know if the same applies to this species though. It might be too low -- or too high! Or maybe it's perfect and there's some other problem.

*sigh*

Pama clown better watch out... I've got my eye on HIS nest now.

[JodiLynn]

How very interesting. Thank you for sharing your pioneering with us. Hopefully things will turn around for the better.

I wish my clowns would hurry up and get through the pairing process so I can try my hand at this.

[parshmar]

have you tried artemia yet?

sorry to hear the bad news

[NicoleC]

They are not big enough yet for artemia probably. The last group wouldn't take it at 16 days. And it's a royal pain to have a tank full of sea monkeys when you are looking for 1/4" long clear larvae!

[jnowell]

LOL - I can only imagine :D Sorry to har about the losses, but you still have a good chance with the rest. I love reading about people experimenting with species not commonly raised in homes. Keep it up, I'll likely try some Royal Gramma fry as soon as the parents give me the opportunity.

[gsrracer]

interesting

[NicoleC]

Well, I think I know what went wrong. I was getting so obsessed about pH I was using a lot of buffer. I do recall thinking a couple of times, "gee, I wonder if this much buffer is harmful."

I tested everything I could think of today. Alk was off the charts :( Dumb move.

Last time I didn't even check pH once and the got to 30 days. I suppose low pH isn't nearly as bad as high Alk.

I corrected the situation with a large water change (new water has been dripping in for a couple of hours), so we'll see if the last handleful -- 7, I think -- make it.

[Rascal]

I have to disagree with the high alkalinity assumption.

Rhetorical question: Why is pH low but alkalinity is high?

[parshmar]

Good luck and I hope that fixes the problem.

[NicoleC]

I have to disagree with the high alkalinity assumption.
It's the only water parameter off. Otherwise they were developing well and were energetic up until a couple of days ago.

Rhetorical question: Why is pH low but alkalinity is high?
Because, as I said, I was overusing buffer, which was raising the Alk. Buffer doesn't solve underlying pH preblems, which are common in larval tanks.

[Rascal]

Do you have any of that 'old' water left, or any in vessels with a similarly low pH?

[NicoleC]

No, I dumped it. But I did the oxygen test first -- it had very little effect on the pH.

If I could ever get my live phyto rolling, I might be able to solve much of the low pH issue by using live phyto to tint the water green.

[rsman]

how exactly did you do your oxygen test, if it was a kit which one, if it was ph test with an airstone where were you, how long did you let the air run, how high was your alk and which buffer did you use ??

[NicoleC]

I did the airstone test outside; I went from 7.9 to 8.1 in 30 minutes.
Alk... well, it went off the chart. The Salifert test mexes out at 16 dkH.
Buffer is SeaChem Reef Buffer. Perhaps straight sodium bicarbonate baked into sodium carbonate would have been a better choice.

[Rascal]

IMO, a jump in pH from 7.9 to 8.1 is substantial.

I did the oxygen test first -- it had very little effect on the pH.

If you aerated the water for 30 minutes and it rose 0.2 units, that is evidence of residual CO2. CO2 + H2O produces carbonic acid. Buffer may or may not raise the pH, but it would definitely raise the alkalinity.

My advice would be to continue aeration. In the end, what's there to lose?

[NicoleC]

Aeration has been nonstop since before they hatched, per SOP.

[rsman]

with an alk level above 16 the small jump in pH from 7.9 to 8.1 means a HUGE jump in O2 remember that alk should have stoped any change from happening, you had a good size change there. you have O2 problems, at least see if you can screen off an area and add an airline to that. or otherwise stir the water frequently.. or bring in outside air. also anything that will raise the amount of airation going on.

[NicoleC]

Inside air is very good on O2. For one thing, the window is open. Also, my reef tank is at 8.4 and steady, and if CO2 levels rise I see that tank drop right away.

Interesting idea about screening off an area so you can aerate more vigorously. I don't have any mesh small enough (say 250 or so) to keep the gobies out. I may have some loose weave 100% polyester fabric but I'm not sure what I'd have to do to really get the sizing out. I doubt fabric sizing is good for larvae!

I'll have to dig around here and see what I can find.

[rsman]

remind my empty brain .....

what are you rearing them in again ??? and how high is the water level ??

[NicoleC]

Half full 10g.

I found some fine toile. The openings are a little too big, but I think if I double it up I'll be okay.

All told I did about a 90% water change today. pH has been steady at 8.25 all day. One way or another, I think it's clear that every other day 50% water changes are just not frequent enough. I'll just have to do them daily.

[parshmar]

I use to know a guy that raised clowns in his basement. In each tank he had a piece of acrylic tube with an air stone in it, in addition to his airstones used for circulation. The length of the tube was basically right at the height of the water level or slightly below it. I never asked, but I bet he was just trying to control the o2 with them. I guess you could also use larger pvc pipe as well.

[Rascal]

That is actually a very effective technique. I use 3" - 4" pipe w/ 1" holes drilled throughout, then cover with Nitex. The pipe is an inch above the waters surface. An airstone is dropped inside and CO2 is degassed. This drives the pH up, and also allows O2 to diffuse into the water at the air/water interface.

[Rascal]

Oh, and be sure that that bottom of the pipe is capped so as NOT to act like a riser tube.

[NicoleC]

pH held steady through the night, dipping only to 8.23 from 8.25. I haven't figured out the aeration cage yet, but this morning I turned up the airstones in the front of the tank anyway -- the remaining larvae are mosly hanging out in the back corners.

Anyway, only 5 (I think) left today. I kept getting a count of 9 yesterday. So all this may be a red herring -- and issue, but not the real issue. I am not optimistic above the last few -- given the high mortalities at metamorphosis, even if they get that far they chances of any surviving are poor.

If O2 were a problem, wouldn't the larvae move to the surface and/or near the airstones? Or are they not smart enough for that?

[rsman]

a few issues, water movement tends to keep the level of o2 consistant so you wont have a real high point at least in a 1/2 full 10g. and then the fish have to realize the high points and be able to use them, these probibly are not that smart yet, and the surface water is harder to use.

[NicoleC]

Observation:

I have one goby that looks well developed and healthy. The others seem too thin and "hanging on."

Well, first I decided to cover the sides of the tank to reduce glare ala Wilkerson's Clownfishes. As I was watching, though, I saw the biggest one curl his tail (in a "S" curve, no less!) and jump after something. Hunting, I assume. The others are just jerking along as always. Anyway, I watched him do it several times. I have ot seen this behavior before.

I wish my silicon would hurry up and cure. You'd laugh at my aeration cages, but I think they will do the job. Hey, the tupperware kreisel works great. :)

[NicoleC]

Another observation:

Like the clowns, when I covered the back and sides of the tank, the gobies moved away from the back wall and started getting more active.

Oh hell. Could it really be something that easy?!
:hammer:
:spin2:

Just counted 8. So few -- but it will only take one adult to make me feel happy!

[spk]

Nicole,

Are you going to post some pics of the aeration cage you built or is it in another thread?

Good luck with this lot.

Steve

[Kathy55g]

My walls are painted flat black but there is a population that hugs the wall. I think your assessment earlier explains it. It is a method of food capture as long as the food gathers on the edges.
Cheers,
Kathy

[NicoleC]

Very interesting -- the skinny ones look a little fatter today. They don't get the midriff bulge like the clowns do, so it's hard to tell.

It may be too late for these guys, but the next batch will definately have back and sides covered.

[NicoleC]

P.S. Order a dissolved O2 test today as well, so I can get a handle on that one way or another. It also occured to me that I have extra felt pads that go on my Luft pump intake -- they must have been included for a reason. Maybe it needs to be replaced?

[bertoni]

The SeaChem Marine Buffer might be more appropriate if you want to force pH up. You could ask in the chemistry forum, but I think it has borates for this purpose. How much difference it would make, I don't know.

[mano]

Black larval tanks are pretty common in aquaculture so I would definitely give that a try so they can see the rotifers better. Keep at it and you will get it soon!

[Rascal]

Buffer will restore alkalinity, which you have told us is already high (and therefore not a concern). Don't add more.

CO2 retention essentially has two effects in an aquarium (1) lowers pH via production of carbonic acid, and (2) lowering the affinity for O2.

Degas the CO2 and you will improve conditions greatly.

[NicoleC]

The alkalinity issue was fixed a while ago with water changes. pH is holding steady at 8.25; just doing daily water changes.

I have not lost any gobies since covering the back and sides and they look good; active and eating. I still have at least 8 -- exactly 8, I think, but I counted 8 at once. I am not seeing them settle out, though, and they should be doing so by now.

I added the aeration cage this morning.

[Rascal]

On 1/15 you stated that you had used buffer to raise pH and that the alkalinity was high. The water change(s) therefore had no net change in terms of 'raising' the alkalinity, as it was already high.

So, alkalinity wasn't fixed since it wasn't off in the first place.

You also stated that your pH was 7.9 prior to the aeration test, and now your pH is 8.25. Why do you not think that warrants consideration in terms of increased larval vitality?

I'm not suggesting that the black tank wall covering is insignificant, but you are changing quite a few variables which I think are important and need to be considered just as thoroughly.

[NicoleC]

An Alk over 16 dKh seems pretty damned high to me. And I corrected it to be LOWER with water changes. pH was also incidentally raised to 8.25 with said water changes.

7.9 is for many larval species a perfectly acceptable pH. It may not be so for these gobies, but I have no reason to think they are different in this respect. Its not as if the pH was 7.5 or some such ridiculously low number. Since I am using Clor-Am-X, I do not need to worry about a pH of 8.25, which is pretty high.

OTOH, the dying fish were skinny and wasting away; I covered the back of the tank and the survivors immediately moved to the center of the tank and started eating. I could literally see cause and effect within minutes. They don't get fat like the clowns but at least they have bulges in their middles now.

THE cause for improvement? I can't say. But it is one which I can specifically identify, whereas everything else is speculation.

When the O2 test arrives (which is backordered, of course) I can check that item, but I really have no concerns about a pH of 7.9, in fact, its pretty close to what I'd like to see provided the O2 levels are okay. My error -- if indeed it was the fatal item -- was in overusing the buffer instead of addressing the root causes of the pH drop, not the pH itself.

IMO.