Thinking into getting into small propagation for my other tanks...

[lbv]

I read most of the differnt propagation articles, but the only thing that they kind of didn't answer for me is, how do I setup a propagation tank.

Right now I have a 2 1/2 gallon that I'm thinking about using to do very tiny propagation to fill up my other tanks. I know no bottom is needed, but what about LR? This may seem very dumb, but do propagation tanks need to cycle?

Here is exactly what I was thinking:

2 1/2 gallon tank with Lee protein skimmer (customized), and a heater, maby a small aqua clear mini sitting around somewhere. That is basically it.

I'm really kind of dumb at this topic because I really never gave it much thought.

How about a 20g long? What type of setup would I need for that and how would I start.

I also have a 150 gallon rubber maid tub sitting in my back yard, going to waste, and was wondering what would I need to use that to propagate if I really do get involved in it.

Can someone guide me through this step by step (tank setup), and tell me if my 2 1/2 gallon prop tank would work.

[lbv]

Forgot to add, this is mainly for Zoo's, Leathers, Ricordia, Polyps (all differnt), and maby LPS.

Will PC Suffice? This is just to stock my other tanks up :p

[tekknoschtev]

Tank setup for a prop tank is something that needs to be thought out. Now, thats not to say you need some long, convoluted, complex setup, however, as with any tank, thinking things through properly first will save some time and money in the long run.

I say go for the biggest setup you can feasably do now. A 20 Long would be great, especially if you're just getting your feet wet in start coral propagation. As far as coral prop goes, the largest footprint is best. Something square is even more efficient because you can use less lighting, or more concentrated lighting. That being said, PC lights would be great for zoas, leathers, and pretty much everything else you have listed.

As for filtration - I'd SERIOUSLY reccomend a sump, however it is not necessary (heck, we've got a 40gal tank running sumpless). If you go without a sump, I encourage you to look into adding a HOB fuge (DIY or otherwise). Also, while skimming is not a requirement, its something I've seen make a difference, albiet unscientifically proven, in coral growth in my tanks.

I'd reccomend against the 2.5gal tank. System stability is important, and unless the 2.5gal tank is somehow tied into a sump, then its really, in my mind, difficult to get such small tanks running efficiently. It can be done, but a 20L isnt expensive, and would be far better in my mind.

Get a powerhead for flow, some eggcrate, and lights. Yes, I reccomend live rock. Prop tanks need to cycle as well (unfortunately) and liverock will assist in bio filtration. This is where a sump becomes useful, because you dont have to waste space in the frag tank to hold liverock.

I should add more later, but technically I'm at work :p

[lbv]

Right now I have no sumps on any of my tanks, all have Aqua Clear 110 refugiums (work pretty good to).

Can I rig a old 5 gallon Home-Depot bucket with PVC pipe, hang my skimmer and hang on refugium, with sand and LR in it with a small light? Here is what I was thinking, getting a maxi jet to provide the water from the main tank, drilling 1 1/2 inch PVP pipe with a 90o bending up to limit the water, and to return it to the tank, let me draw it out. Sorry its small.

Also I have a 10 gallon left over with a dual 40W Daylight (6500k, 10000k, and the same for actinic. I was thinking of upgrading to a 20 gallon L on that. Can I just keep the thing, since it is alreayd cycled, build a small sump, and use that? I see why you say I need a 20L, just want to use with what I have on hand, since I have limited space in my one basement (heated), and the other 1 is not heated.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c400/korziker/untitled.jpg

[CoralNutz]

IMO, I would skip the 2.5 gallon tank. Like Steve mentioned, 20L would be perfect for starting out. IMO, your not going to fit much into a 2.5 gallon tank, so why not just start propping in a little area in your display tanks. Some people have even mounted eggcrate behind the main rock structure to hide if from view. Another option would be just to plumb this little tank into one of your displays.... That way you wouldn't have to worry about stability so much, would just need a powerhead and some extra plumbing and you could use the filtration off of one of the other tanks.

HTH... Have fun fragging :thumbsup:

[lbv]

my display tank is a 20H, what I actually was thinking was to start off, use my 10 gallon which has only 1 Maroon Clown, 1 cleaner shrimp, and 1 candy cane, and make a small container and use that to prop. But in the end, I'd prefer to have something bigger, such as a 20L.


What type of lighting would I need for my 20L if i do, twin 65w 30"?

I think I can make a sucessful sump using a 5 gallon bucket.

[CoralNutz]

I think that a sterylite container would make a better sump do to the more tanklike shape. A bucket certainly will work, you can get curved wall bulkeads if you need to drill them as well. I would stay away from the rubbermaid as they are not all made from the same material. I have heard of them leaking and I know that some are not FDA approved and have been known to leach stuff into the water over time. The sterylite containers are all FDA approved and as far as I know do not leach anything. (Don't know this to be 100% fact, just read it in lots of places)

If your handy with a saw, I would recomment getting 2x75 watt VHO's VS. the PC's. I am not a fan of PC's at all. IME all of the PC actinics I have tried didn't even compare to URI brand VHO bulbs. Or you could just put a halide over it. (Just a tip, you could get the VHO setup includeing endcaps, ballast, bulbs for about $110 shipped from hellolights.com need to build a canopy for it though) Real easy to build a little wooden box to hold lights though.

[lbv]

I'm starting to drool over here, what lighting can I use for a sump, the sump is just going to hold LR, sand, and maby some macro algae. Can I get away with a normal florecent fixture for the sump? Right now I calculated all the things I need, and its at $300 (to upgrade my 10 gallon into a 20L (minus the LR and tank) [includes an Aquaclear 110 (to rig for refugium), 30" Light Fixture, and replacement bubls for my other tank).]

[lbv]

^ forget the florecent question above, just stoked about trying to prop corals. Things I still need to know, Lighting for Sump, and if my 5 gallon bucket sump idea could work. Once I convert my 10 gallon into a 20L after moving all, I'm going to take that live rock currently in it and use it in the sump for a prop tank.

This is not for SPS corals, so I don't think I need MH for it. I was thinking of using the already established 10 gallon as a temporary prop tank with a 5 gallon sump (bucket, has been previously used to cure LR), then when I find a buyer for the Light, I will make it a 20L. Right now it seems that no matter what im spending money for a 30" fixture for a 20L.

Here is another Idea, tie 2 10 gallons which I have in storage into 1 common sump, and connect both of them with PVC pipe after I use a glasscutter to connect them. Thus, I can have an attatching tank (low flow), and a flow tank for them to grow. Any ideas?

[tekknoschtev]

If you're not looking for super spectucular macro growth, NO Flourescents will be fin over the sump.

300 bucks isnt too shabby for a setup. You could also find a local club and buy things used for cheap. I've been keeping VERY detailed cost records (including the half a dozen wirenuts I've needed) for my setup, which consists of 2x 30gal breeders, a 60gal sump, 250W halide, 4x 20W ODNO flourescents overdriven to 56Weach, LOA Light for the fuge, and two MaxiJet 1200s and I just hit $300. I'm going to be picking up a Mag 12 for the return pump, and I have a few other minor expenses before its 100% running but total cost will be less than $400. Not too bad in my mind, for something that I estimate I can pay for within a year (and thats being generous, my goal is 3-5 months).

[lbv]

That just took a LOAD off my back heaing that no lights are needed for over the sump. Guess I'll start looking for stuff in my Reef Club forum, Thanks. Tanks are not a problem, since this 1 LFS is having a mega fish tank sale, 20H = $21 20L = $25.

Hopefully by next week I'll have it set up if the things come in, and put pictures up for you to guide me though the process.

[Sm0kin]

NO Flourescents = normal output flourescents

[tekknoschtev]

no, you dont need any lights over the sump. If you want to have a fuge and run it with growing macro algaes, then a light is necessary, but for a "sump" by definition no light is needed.

Dont rush into it :p Mine has been in the works since October... I beleive, but I've had finals, and school, and work thrown in there :p

But yes! POST PICTURES!

[lbv]

Just ordered light for a 20L (twin 30" 65w PC).

I'm going to start as a 10 gallon prop tank just to get my feet wet. This won't cost me any money because I already got PC's A refugium (6700k palm light), and a Lee Converted Protein skimmer.

I'm going to make the sump out of an old 5 gallon bucket that has been used to cure LR before. This is so I can swap it with a bigger tank without any problems.

I'll post pictures on a differnt topic.

Last two question, should I remove all of the sand and LR and put it in the sump? And Heater: in sump or tank?

[tekknoschtev]

I vote for the heater in sump - less equipment in the "display". Sand and live rock from the display to the sump? Wash the sand first. But getting the liverock out will give you more room for frags :D

Good luck!

[MiddletonMark]

I run a rubbermaid [`agrimaster'] 60g tub as my prop tank.

IMO, as it's a second tank, I'm keeping it as simple as possible.
60g rubbermaid, plumbed for sump, but none currently.
2 MJ 1200's for flow, 100w heater, 175w MH.

No fish, a couple snails, some LR and a sandbed ... without daily fish feedings waterchanges seem to handle nutrient issues - at least for the last 8 months. I spot feed my corals, and things seem to do well without having to add much.

I'd go for a large water volume, skip fish and anything beyond a simple cleanup crew ... else make this a second reef tank + not a prop tank. I've had a couple tanks, been running 2+ tanks for a few years now. I wouldn't try to have the prop tank be a `display' tank, nor something you want to fill with fish. Just grow corals - if it doesn't aid that, skip it.

My setup is the cheapest I could run it, really - might not be for you ... but in the end, considering power use, heat, time ... that's the difference between a prop tank that's a joy to have [little time required daily] vs. a second tank to have to baby.

Just my take ... many ways to run such a tank, find what works best for you.

Here's my basement tank. Ain't pretty, but seems to grow coral fine ... or as I hope, `fine coral' :)

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/506/28196basement_tub.jpg

[tekknoschtev]

http://workshopwebs.com/pictures/fish/ComfortFragTank/06January/011705/wholeSetup.JPG

Just to show what I'm working on. complete with ghetto galvanized hand bent MH reflector :p

Thats a pretty slick setup MiddletonMark, and I envy the setup. I aquired ALL of the parts dirt cheap ($10 per tank, $30 for the sump, $50 for the MH, $24 for the ODNO setup). I'm getting the Mag 12 return pump for $50 and an array of heaters for free. But I like your setup as well, and if I had access to the agro tubs as cheap as I got the tanks I likely would have used those.

[MiddletonMark]

More pics ...
Looking vacant after getting rid of a few things.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/28196prop-tank0.jpg

Bubble coral frags :)
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/28196prop-tank1.jpg

Neon green leather, candy-cane
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/28196prop-tank2.jpg

[MiddletonMark]

Nice and clean, tekknoschnev ... I like it!

[tekknoschtev]

Haha thanks. I like seeing stocked tanks. Gives me hope that one day I'll have corals in mine :p I actually think I'm ready to have it running with salty water this Sunday (I get the return pump this saturday and head back to Lansing on Sunday). After that, its all down hill. I've got a 40gal tank at home full of frags that I'm going to split and bring them up to my tank to grow them out.

[lbv]

Dang, I envy you both. The thing is MH throw off too much heat, in my basment right now im running airconditioning in the winter (NJ its 28F right now). My basment has 2 computers, 2 tanks with PC, Heater unit for my house in the closet, TV. Get very hot, right now without AC my basement would be at 120+F (my 1 new computer is a full blown gaming computer, has 2 Vid cards and throws off 102F).

I got something funny to tell you!

I found my old fish tank equipment and rigged it to my sump. 1 Prizem protein skimmer, 1 (don't know brand skimmer), and 1 Customized Lee. I'm thinking about using all 3 since they don't skim that well, but i figued, combined they can boost the aeration and prolly skim the same amout as my AquaC Remora

[lbv]

Really honestly hopefully, this is my last question.

As for cycling since I am not replacing the water completly, do I need to re-cycle the tank? The tank has been set up for 1 year about, and the only water I am adding is the 5 gallons of new salt water.

Think I should leave the sand in the tank so pylops cant attach to the bottom of the class?

[tekknoschtev]

The thing about "the cycle" is that its not in the water. The goal of the cycle is to build up colonies of bacteria and while some of that exists in the water, the majority of the bacteria colonize the porus live rock. So if you are using cured liverock, stuff that has been in the system you say for a year, you might not notice a cycle, or if you do, it will be minimal. Best to get your test kits ready just in case.

As for the sand - thats up to you. I'm giving this whole barebottom thing a try, which a lot of people opt to do with prop tanks just for ease of maintenence and with barebottom, the flow can go up by leaps and bounds without worry of creating a sand storm. I've got some crazy flow in my tanks - or rather I will, so barebottom is the only option for me. IF you use the sand however, make sure to rinse it when transfering it, or at the very least, only use the top 1/2" of sand (I'm told that the top 1/2" is ok to use without causing issues).

I envy you in having live rock. I've got about 15-20lbs I'm bringing up from home for my tank this sunday, unfortunately the system is nearly 110gallons, so who knows if its going to be enough to cycle the tank. I certainly know that its not going to be enough to maintain enough biological filtration for what I'm planning but I've got plans to fix that...

Anyways, dont feel bad about the questions - keep them coming.

[CoralNutz]

That's awsome Mark, yours is coming along good Steve. Hope to see it full soon... :D

Here's how I set mine up. It's just a oceanic 37 that was originally setup behind where my computer is. When I decided I wanted a dedicated tank to prop corals in I just plumbed this 33 to it.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61/coralnutz/Tanks/DSCF1838.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61/coralnutz/Tanks/DSCF1839.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a61/coralnutz/Tanks/DSCF1334.jpg

[lbv]

How did you get the zoo's off the main colony? Scrape them off or let the main colony expand on the disc?

Also I heard that if you place two differnt colored zoo's next to each other, when they multiply they will have hybrid characteristics


Say you have a Green zoo colony, and orange. Will they intermingle to be Green Skirt, Orange outside of vice versa?

[CoralNutz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6600444#post6600444 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lbv
How did you get the zoo's off the main colony? Scrape them off or let the main colony expand on the disc?

Also I heard that if you place two differnt colored zoo's next to each other, when they multiply they will have hybrid characteristics


Say you have a Green zoo colony, and orange. Will they intermingle to be Green Skirt, Orange outside of vice versa?

I fragged them off rocks and mounted them to acrylic. I do that to lots of zoas that I plan on fragging in the future. IMO it's easier to gently peal the zoas off of the acrylic vs. off of a rock.

I have never known any zoas to crossbread and create hybrids... typically when you have two different types on one rock, if they are both similar in size and species they will probably coexist, but not mix to create hybrids. If they are different sizes/species, usually the larger ones will just overgrow the smaller ones taking over the rock.

[lbv]

OK I have planned out my tank... Stay with me here, the picture I drew is too hard to see.


10" of the length of the tank is going to be eggcrate (1/2 tank).

Now I'm going to make that section in tiers. The first tier is going to be 5" above the bottom of the tank and 4" long. The second tier is going to be 8" above the bottom and 2.5" long. The right 10" left w/o eggcrate will be for LR that has nothing on it (or maby some polyps or something). The egg crate section is going to have 5" infront with bare class, thus making in essence 3 tiers.

______________________surface
4" between surface and 3rd tier
___
xxx|
xxx|8"
xxx|
xxx\_____
xxxxxxxxx |
xxxxxxxxx | 5"
xxxxxxxxx |
__________________|
10 inches total but 5" for eggcrate (width)

Height is 12", second tier is 5" from bottom, 3rd 8" from bottom

Hope that helped ;)

[lbv]

Question for Ricordia / Mushroom and any other critter with a foot that attatches to a rock. Can I used FIBERGLASS Screen to hold them to a rock? Right now I'm using a rubber band since I just got some corals in, and liveaquria shipped me a blue ricordia with nothing attactched to it.

[CoralNutz]

bridal veil netting from any craft store will work great. You can get it by the yard very cheap and it'll last you a long time.

[tekknoschtev]

Is tiering it really worth it to you in a 10/20gal tank? We did in our 40, but thats because its 22" tall and certain corals need to be 6" from the PC lights, but in a 10gal you might end up with more headaches than its worth. I hate the tiering because getting behind it to find things that fell is a PITA. Just something to think about.