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View Full Version : any experience with Ecosystems miracle mud filter???


jasonkola
01/30/2006, 08:15 PM
I am a newbe my first tank was a failure so I am planning a new one. I want one that is as simple and natural as possible with the lowest amount of maintainance as possible. I heard about this ecosystems miracle mud filter and wanted to know if it works as good as they claim? dose it really eliminate the need to use a protien skimmer? I plan on setting up a 180g tank with lots of live rock and live sand and as many fish as I can keep with out over stalking. I have not desided if I will have a deep sand bed or a shallow one. also I think I will probably will want a sump with a refugeum. although one of those ecosystem miracal mud filters is basicly a refugeum so I might not need one in the sump. any how any one with experience with this filter and how well it works let me know. so I dont make a mistake if it is not so good. thanks jason

Avi
01/30/2006, 09:16 PM
I have no personal experience with them at all...I have a more "traditional" reef...protein skimmer....but there's a fish store that I have stopped at for almost a year now, and they have a tank that's somewhere between 150 and 180-gallons...it's an odd shape so it's hard to be certain, that they have as a display tank and they use an Ecosystem Miracle Mud Filter on it. It's quite impressive. It's got the largest leather corals I've ever seen in there...a few varieties...and I've witnessed them get bigger and bigger, and all the other corals are showing really fine extention. I've watched the tank for just about as long as they've had it set up that way and have to say that it is a method for a successful reef. For sure.

jasonkola
01/30/2006, 09:45 PM
thats interesting. do they have a skimmer on that tank? I read on here that one guy has one of these and only changes his water once a year. I am not sure if he ran a skimmer though. any one else have any experience with this filter? I wish the search button worked I would search for more info but I am not a paid member so it dosn't work for me.

Avi
01/30/2006, 10:25 PM
The tank that I'm describing has no skimmer on it. It seems so risky, but the truth is, Ecosystems are meant to be run without skimmers. It isn't a gimmick, that I can say from having seen the tank prosper.

If you can’t search…check out this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=759383&highlight=ecosystem

Cutiewitbooty
01/30/2006, 10:37 PM
I had the small model on my 46 gal FOWLR and i loved it. My nitrates were always extremly low and i had no need for a skimmer. I would use one again in a heartbeat, but they are to expensive, espically for the big ones lol. When i get a bigger tank i do want to get one again, but i think i would use a skimmer anyways, or maybe just a couple days a week.

bureau13
01/30/2006, 11:01 PM
There is actually a "Pro" version of the Ecosystems that comes with an ASM skimmer (or you can get it without the skimmer, but with the enlarged overflow section so one will fit). However, they do not recommend that you run it all the time.

I currently have one (not the pro) on my 55, but I run an AquaC Remora anyway.

jds

jasonkola
01/30/2006, 11:13 PM
thanks for the link I might just need to fork it over and become a paid member so I can search better. this system shows promise I didn't realize the replacement mud was so expensive. $80 per 10 pound bag is a little steep. I wander what they put in there that works so good. if all it is is iron inriched I think one could do that themselves.

old salty
01/30/2006, 11:29 PM
I'm using a similar setup, but built my own fuge from a 50 gallon tank in order to save a few bucks. I'm at three months now, and so far, so good. I can't get culerpa to grow, but there is no algae in the display either.

If you read up on this system, they recommend a very shallow sand bed. I blow off the LR weekly and do 10% water changes to export some of the junk in the tank. The only drawback I have witnessed is the vast amount of particulate matter suspended in the water. I don't want a crystal clear tank, but the amount that I have can be unsightly. I use a filter sock on one of the overflows which really catches a lot of junk. Those need to be replaced every 3-4 days.

jasonkola
01/31/2006, 07:44 PM
bump, so any one have any more links to more info on this filter. I plan to research everything I plan for my new tank carefully so as too try to avoid as many mistakes as possible. I am thinking I will probably end up useing a skimmer also. but I would like to know the long term affects of running with out a skimmer. I think it would be interesting to design a more self sufficient system. one that dosn't require so much supliments. one that recycles much of the waste within. I know there is is plenty of critteres that can do the house keeping on the bottom of the tank. and then theres the nitrates which can be consumed by various plants. so what else is there to consider. I know I need to invest in a good ro/di unit to keep from adding unwanted extras to my tank. then there is a good supply of argonite I will use on the floor and possibly in the sump or a seperate deep sand bed. this should help maintain a constant ph and supply calcium. of course I am not going to be haveing a actual reef just alot of live rock which will be covered with the coralline algae and fish. well I am getting off subject. sorry. so any ideas you might have on such a system. or links to more info on that Ecosystems miracle mud filters long term use would be great thanks. jason

Cutiewitbooty
01/31/2006, 08:12 PM
have you checked out their website? There is alot of good info there.

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html

stlpvosrt4
01/31/2006, 08:56 PM
I currently have an Ecosystem filter on my 55 gallon tank. I have no protein skimmer and have been using the system for over 3 years now. The system definitely works, but it doesn't get you out of all maintenance. I originally purchased the Ecosystem because like you I wanted something that was natural, and to that end, I think I have accomplished my goal. The only filtration in my tank is the Ecosystem filter and live rocks. I also run 440w VHO lights and the extention and growth of all my corals is phenomonal to say the least. I highly recommend this system. Currently, the only maintenance I do is daily Kalk addition and a 10 gallon water change once a month.

jasonkola
01/31/2006, 10:38 PM
thanks Amber. there is quite a bit of good stuff on there. although alot of it might be a little bias. all I have heard is good stuff about it. I think I will be going that route when I finally set my tank up. although I am still undesided if I will run a skimmer or not. at least that is one decision out of the way. now on to lighting. but I will save that for another thread. thanks for the help and input. Jason

murph1083
01/31/2006, 11:09 PM
what about chemical and mechanical filtration? Does that not matter?

jasonkola
02/01/2006, 07:32 AM
in nature there is less mechanical and chemical and more natural filtration. although I dont think of mechanical filtration as bad and I probably will have a filter sock or something simple. I like the idea of leaving it to nature to replace the chemical filtration.

murph1083
02/01/2006, 08:30 AM
how do you think a system like this would work on a FOWLR, I know its expensive, you consider it a waste unless you have reef?

Cutiewitbooty
02/01/2006, 09:02 AM
the ecosystem i had had a black filter thing, that you had to rinse everyonce and a while. I think it was more for stoping the calupra from going into the return chamber, but it still caught all sorts of junk, as for chemical i think the mud might somehow do some of that, but i'm not ecactly sure how. The thing i really loved about the ecosystem is how i never really had to do any water changes on my FOWLR, it was awesome. The reason they don't want you to use a skimmer is because the skimmer will pull out all the stuff that the mud adds to the wwater, kinda defeating the purpose.

bureau13
02/01/2006, 10:27 AM
Personally, I'm skeptical about some of the claims, and I will need to see more specifics about this "stuff" that is added to the water, which goes away with a skimmer. They may be right, but I'd need to see more specifics. I think its kind of ironic that they don't recommend a skimmer, but they sell a sump that has one if you want it.

jds

PS: This post sounds anti-Ecosystem, but its not...remember, I am currently running an Ecosystem setup, and I like it...but it certainly doesn't get me out of water changes, etc.

old salty
02/01/2006, 10:57 AM
Your skepticism is certainly warranted; I personally don't like the name, "Miracle Mud". I am kind of skeptical about using a skimmer. Think about it; just because it pulls smelly stuff out of the water doesn't necessarily mean that that smelly stuff is bad. We add our human nature to something that for the most part, has done well without our interference. Just because it's nasty to us doesn't mean that other creatures feel the same way. The Dung beatle certainly comes to mind, here!!

And to add to the confusion, I recently purchased a Deltec AP600. It should be here in about a week or so. If the skimmer helps the system, great. If not, I can easily sell it in the classifieds. I too am curious as to whether or not a skimmer will improve the tank or not.

murph1083
02/01/2006, 04:10 PM
if I was tro get one, do you think its worth it to get a bigger one then my reccomended size, the next ine up cost almost $150 more!

Cutiewitbooty
02/01/2006, 04:44 PM
bigger is always better, if you can afford it go for it :D

jasonkola
02/01/2006, 06:01 PM
I too am a little skeptical of the possibilities of not useing a skimmer. but I am also skeptical of a skimmer its self. I will try to explain both thoughts. first off I know there has been many many sucessfull reefs set up with a good protien skimmer as a big part of its success so its not a real bad thing. but it is not natural. and it could be a part of the reasons for the need for water changes and adding of many suplements which it might remove as well as some of the bad things like desolved organics. the question is can we remove those organics more naturally. I honestely think to some degree we can. as long as we dont create a system that has a greater bioload than the natural filtration we we are able to create within the system. I like to think against the grain and know that a system, although sucessfull can always be improved and or simplified.

Nzomniak
02/01/2006, 06:43 PM
This seems like a very interesting possiblity to me, a friend of mine is currently using it and recommended it to me.

Something I just thought of: What does the Miracle Mud look like? I see pics on their website and it looks pretty, like white sand. Anybody have hands-on (eyes-on) :) experience?

Cutiewitbooty
02/01/2006, 06:48 PM
from what i can remember it's brownish mud, but it doeas have little flakes of stuff in it thats kinda gold color.

jasonkola
02/01/2006, 07:00 PM
I wander if those orange flakes were metel shavings which rusted to provide the mud with a source of iron? I don't know enough about chemistery to know if that would work. I wander if after a year or two when the mud was depleated and needed replacing if those orange flakes were gone? just a thought.

rm
02/01/2006, 07:49 PM
I'm using one now. Had it for a few months. They do not recommend more sand than about 3/8" in the main tank and plenty of waterflow (1200g/h at least through the sump). I wanted a sandy bottom but ended up removing my 3/8 sandbed because it began forming dunes a the back of my tank (I push all 1200+ gallons/hr through the main tank, you can add a bypass and send some back through the sump). I like it better w/o the sand bottom and it's now covered with coralline algae.

I am having problems with hair algae growth. I did get some contrary advice on how to setup the mud system from my lfs. Not sure if this was the cause but Ecosystem put me back on track once I emailed them (they insist you follow their instructions to the letter for things to setup properly).

Re: the hair algae - I emailed them on the problem and they said 3-4hrs of skimming in the evening till I get things back under control is ok but continuous use defeats the purpose of the mud system (maybe takes too much food from the corals). Also told them I was adding a phosban reactor and they agreed this was a good idea and could be run all the time unlike the skimmer.

My chemicals are always good. However, hair algae might be phospate related or me overfeeding (I think I'm not, and my nitrates are always good but the hair is there telling me otherwise).

The mud does have gold shiny particles in it and is sandy brown in color. You will have to change 1/2 out after the first two years then 1/2 per year after that according to ecosystem. Apparently the trace elements or whatever they put in the mud is all used up by then. I wish they chose a different name for it. Anything with the word miracle in it is just asking to be attacked (the high cost doesn't help either).

One thing about the high flow rate requirement. I will probably need a chiller when summer hits. I had a pump rated over 1200gph but I run the sump in the basement. Figure in the 8 foot rise to the tank and a few elbows and that pump was only giving me 400gph. Swithced it out for a blueline100 and flow is up above 1200 now.

So far I am pleased with the setup and the customer service. I am too new at this hobby to offer any comparison of MM to other methods.

jasonkola
02/01/2006, 10:06 PM
rm how big is your tank. 1200 gph dosn't seem too high a flow rate to me. I plan on setting up my new tank to circulate 20 times per hour. my current tank which is a 55 gallon circlutes 1200 gph. I think good water circulation is the only thing I did right with this tank which is my first. besides throwing some live rock in there. I have kept one fish in it alive for 6 years now. one coral beauty angel fish. I only feed her once a week or less. she feeds on the algae that seems to have taken over my tank all day. as far as your algae problem. I might suggest getting yourself a fish that likes to eat that stuff.

lunner
02/01/2006, 11:52 PM
Do you guys use the bio balls that came with the ecosystem?

I have a 55gal w/ a 3012.

rm
02/02/2006, 05:45 AM
I have a 120 gallon tank. The blueline pump is rated at 1900gph from the outlet of the pump and falls a few hundred gallons/hr as height increases. Ecosystem recommends 1200gph. I am somewhere between 12 and 1900 because I run the sump in the basement ~8ft below the tank. The sand bed in may tank was being pulled to the back wall of the tank with the pump wide open (not being fed back onto the sump so all the flow went into the main tank.

I do use the bio balls in the sump.

Something else I'm still fighting with are fine air bubbles in the main tank. I may add another baffle in the pump section of the sump but this may also clear up as the caulerpa fillls the middle section.

rm
02/02/2006, 05:54 AM
Re: Hair algae

I have a yellow tang, foxface, and lawnmower blenny that I've added for the algae. I can't recommend any of them for this type of algae. They don't touch it.

What I do see eating it are the large turbo snails, the tuxedo urchin (copper colored spines), and I just added a few bumble bee snails (they are huge and seem to eat the ha as well). Once these guys mow it down, my margarita snails start working on the re-growth.

Cutiewitbooty
02/02/2006, 07:56 AM
oh yeah the bio balls in the ecosystem arn't like bio balls for a wet/dry in the sense that water isn't trickles over them (the ones that cause high nitrates), the ecosystem bioballs are just to help breakup junk that goes into the refugium part, thoes balls are totally underwater and should be rinsed every now and then to prevent the build up of gunk on them.

lunner
02/02/2006, 06:48 PM
So I am just going to keep the bio balls in then.

Thanks

Cutiewitbooty
02/02/2006, 10:28 PM
no problem :D

old salty
02/03/2006, 07:30 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6642997#post6642997 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by murph1083
if I was tro get one, do you think its worth it to get a bigger one then my reccomended size, the next ine up cost almost $150 more!

I went with the AP600; rated for 200g normal or 130 heavy. I have 7 small fish and will be adding a Naso (in QT right now.) I may get a few more small ones, but for the most part my load is gonna be light. I went with the recommendation from Doug @ Deltec. I couldn't justify another $200 for the next size up.

Here are a few pics of the mud. Hard for me to focus due to the location of the fuge and the wall.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/olsaltybastard/MM2.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/olsaltybastard/MM1.jpg


I used base nano rock from reeferrocks.com as it costs about the same as the good bioballs.

Wryknow
02/03/2006, 10:42 AM
Never used it but I am suspicious personally. You know the old adage "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is." Plus they are expensive! Skimmers are not artificial to my mind; they are a way of duplicating the natural protein skimming activity performed by waves on coral reefs. (Of course the solution to pollution is dilution and NO aquarium will ever be able to duplicate the dilution capacity of the ocean.) That being said there are LOTS of ways to keep an aquarium successfully with low-tech gear. I'm just not convinced that the "miracle mud" is really any better than oolitic sand. My own $.02 :-) Natural Reef Aquariums by Tullock had lots of great ideas for low-tech, low-cost aquariums that were successful without any miracle mud.

WanaLeime
02/03/2006, 10:56 AM
I used the EcoSystem for about 3yrs with skimmer...I had huge success..LPS corals quickly grew...water parameters perfect, fish excellent color...They only complaint I had was they recommend adding (depending the size of the system) new mud evrey 6months...which got costly...but then again it was only a recommendation...I just add 5lbs a year....

murph1083
02/03/2006, 01:13 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6655814#post6655814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by old salty
I went with the AP600; rated for 200g normal or 130 heavy. I have 7 small fish and will be adding a Naso (in QT right now.) I may get a few more small ones, but for the most part my load is gonna be light. I went with the recommendation from Doug @ Deltec. I couldn't justify another $200 for the next size up.

See thats what I think. The cheapest one is for 45 - 65G and I have a 55g. The next level up is 75 to 95g for $150 more. I guess its not worth it to another 30g gallon max...any one disagree?

jasonkola
02/03/2006, 06:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6656911#post6656911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Wryknow
Never used it but I am suspicious personally. You know the old adage "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is." Plus they are expensive! Skimmers are not artificial to my mind; they are a way of duplicating the natural protein skimming activity performed by waves on coral reefs. (Of course the solution to pollution is dilution and NO aquarium will ever be able to duplicate the dilution capacity of the ocean.) That being said there are LOTS of ways to keep an aquarium successfully with low-tech gear. I'm just not convinced that the "miracle mud" is really any better than oolitic sand. My own $.02 :-) Natural Reef Aquariums by Tullock had lots of great ideas for low-tech, low-cost aquariums that were successful without any miracle mud.

I have that book a good book but it was written before this filter was out there or was just starting out. I recentely purchased a book ultimate marine aquariums by michael s. paletta. it is a book that shows numerous succesfull aquariums mostly reefs and how they are designed and maintained. ther is several in there that are quite natural. and a few that use the ecosystem miracle mud system. I wish there had been more FOWLR systems in there but there was only one I have seen so far and it is a real nice one with 17 angelfishes and a couple butterfly fish. although this system did have a protein skimmer. I am not dead set against having a skimmer I just think it is interesting to consider the possibilities. the way I think is, just because everyone is doing something a certain way dose not mean that way is the best way. although it might just be. but if no one tried new ideas we would never advance as a society. and so far in my research of this system I have not found anyone that has been unsuccessful with this system. although many use a protein skimmer with it also. but it dose seem like a good system. although I have not seen alot of long term results due to the system being a relatively new new system out.

DitchPlains2
03/03/2006, 12:22 AM
but continuous use defeats the purpose of the mud system

I doubt you could run any Ecosystem and find after hooking a decent skimmer (ASM, EURO, MRC, CSS) and find that its not pulling out tons of brown to black gunk daily. Not that Ecosystem is bad, I just think and agree that protein skimming is necessary only to remove the organics in the water collumn that will give rise to algae blooms. I did try to Miracle Mud for my fuge to help my Chaeto grow, sadly it did nothing, now I didnt follow the Ecosystem fuge setup mine was a typical, sump/fuge, with numerous baffles and return areas, but I honestly felt the high IRON levels of the mud cause major headaches n problems. The moment I removed it, my tank started to sparkle again.

Yes as Dr. Ron says "the sollution to pollution is dilloution," nothing beats good ol fashioned water changes and protein skimming in my opinion.

Just my two cents and exepreince
David

old salty
03/03/2006, 07:27 AM
Here is an update for everyone:

I have been using the Ecosystem method for 4 months with great results. Nitrates have always been zero, no unwanted algae in the display, good coral growth (xenia expecially), lost a few fish here and there as well as a few coral frags, but we really can't attribute this to the mud alone.

I recently added a Deltec APF600 to the system to see what type of results would come about. The first thing I noticed was how much clearer the water looked. This was after 24 hours of skimming. I have a pretty light bioload so the skimmate isn't coffee colored. Some of my SPS corals have really began to color up nicely. Not all of them, but the Vanatau Tri-colored frags stayed drab prior to the skimmer addition. I haven't noticed an explosion in growth of SPS (they grow pretty slow) nor have I found that I need to scrape the glass with a Mag Float any less. Particulate matter has not lessened at all since the additon of the skimmer, and filter bags still seem to work the best for this issue. I don't run them 24/7, but once a week when I blow the live rock off. The culerpa in the fuge still refuses to grow, so I have let it all die back. There are a few strands left, but nothing that would make me believe that it is removing any nutrients from 150+ gallons of water. I also recently added a phosban reactor (SPS guys recommended this) in order to maximize SPS growth. This has only been on a few days, and I have not purchased a kit for measuring phosphates.

I hope that helps everyone a little bit.

sassyfishy
03/03/2006, 08:54 AM
I've been running the Ecosystem for four months, as well. The first two months, I ran skimmerless. My curiosity about the Coralife Superskimmer was piqued, however, so I bought one of those and have been running it as well. I don't think I would go with a skimmerless system, seeing how much gunk my skimmer collects.

Water parameters have been stable and I haven't had to dose anything yet. (Mind you, I don't have many corals yet, either)

The corals I do have include:

Xenia (hitch-hiker) which is doing very well.
Trumpet coral (hitch-hiker) which has had massive growth from a seemingly lifeless skeleton.
Flower anemone (hitch-hiker) which is doing very well.
Galaxea (hitch-hiker) which started to grow from a skeleton also.
Mushrooms (hitch-hiker & purchased) which are doing very well.
Green-star polyps (purchased) which is doing very well.
Plate coral (purchased) which is doing very well.

I have a mix of both caulerpa and chaeto in the refugium, and I've been getting explosive growth from the caulerpa (trim it back every two weeks). The chaeto is doing ok - but not growing nearly as fast. (I had experimented with chaeto only, fearing that the caulerpa might cause problems - but I had an explosion of hair algae shortly after I removed the caulerpa, so I reintroduced it - and I'm just careful to watch it for signs of "going sexual" and keep it trimmed back frequently as well as lights on for 24/7). I light the refugium with a simple 13w PC.

All livestock is healthy and I've had no losses, with the exception of a couple of snails which weren't acclimated slowly enough (I had a swing arm hydrometer at the time, which was grossly inaccurate compared to the refractometer I recently purchased).

I don't know how this would compare to running without the Ecosystem as this is my first reef experience. All in all, I'd have to say that although I felt the Ecosystem was very pricey, it's worked well for me thus far.