Wonder how high this one will go? [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

CoralNutz

02/01/2006, 12:09 PM

I would love to volunteer. I am not sure that my views match the views of the site though. My view is that not all zoanthids need, or should have names for them. IMO, things are getting way to carried away with the naming. One good thing I see about the site is that it's full of eye candy. But I do see some duplicates that IMO are actually the same zoas, just different lighting. Also see some listed as the same name, that aren't even the same species as far as I can tell. I don't want to mention any names, but I see a lot of photos that are either photoshopped, or juiced up with enough 20K + Actinic that they look photoshopped. I think that all pictures submitted should be be with tank lighting and then also a picture with flash and NO tank lighting on. I see a lot of pictures where the flash on the camera is totally washed out my the 5 million watts of 20K lighting so you can't see the true colors of the coral anyway.

IMO, I think zoaid is getting popular enough that it should really decide if it's main goal is for "fun" or if it really wants to live up to the statement "The Difinitive Repository for Named Zoanthids". IMO that's a pretty bold statement considing anyone can take a pic of their zoas, they could photoshop them, juice them up with 20K's or whwatever and then submit them to you and they will be on there in a day or two. I think if it's going to be just for fun, then you have a certain amount of responsibility to let people know this and that they shouldn't read too much into the names of these. Obviously when people do what that ebayer did and reference your site to try to raise the price, it muddies your name. Especially when it's got such an official sounding statement up at the top.

So, that being said, if you would like any input or ideas from me just let me know and we can take it to a PM or chat somewhere off the public forums. I don't want to step on your toes though so I will leave it at that. Please don't take my statements as trying to bash your site or anything negative, not my point at all. I think the site looks great, has lots of potential for good. But also has the potential to be abused by people as well.

Jovreefer

02/01/2006, 12:40 PM

I agree with coralnuts statement above! I'll offer my oppinion as well if need be. I've already made a few people mad with my color policing anyway so you can put all the blame on me if someone gets upset :p

Mr. Ugly

02/01/2006, 12:54 PM

I think of ZoaID more as, "The Definitive Repository of Zoanthid Eye Candy" :)

[...] let people know this and that they shouldn't read too much into the names of these. Obviously when people do what that ebayer did and reference your site to try to raise the price, it muddies your name. Especially when it's got such an official sounding statement up at the top.
Maybe use a cool official disclaimer or something.

smp

02/01/2006, 01:23 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6641248#post6641248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
I think of ZoaID more as, "The Definitive Repository of Zoanthid Eye Candy" :)

Maybe use a cool official disclaimer or something.

Ditto, except I think there might actually be more eye candy here.

smp

02/01/2006, 02:39 PM

Well, I emailed this winner and his response was about what I expected. I wasn't rude in my original email I just pointed out some simple facts and asked him why he's using Zoaid to up his prices.
He said something about long live capitalism and accused me of living in a communist country and then called me uneducated.
And this after claiming to be a professional and a businessman.
What a guy!

jerrymlr1

02/01/2006, 03:07 PM

I wouldn't expect anything short of that. We all know he's a loser. That kind of garbage doesn't last long. I don't disagree with naming zoas. It's not a bad way of identifying them especially with trading. As with anything though, it can be corrupted by sneaks like him.

jerrymlr1

02/01/2006, 03:10 PM

BTW SMP, what's the weather like in Toronto.:cool: :D

smp

02/01/2006, 03:18 PM

It's HOT up here!!!!
No kidding, our january average temperature has been blown away, it's been RAINING!

CoralNutz

02/01/2006, 03:30 PM

I live in Minneapolis and it's been unusually warm here too.....

Crusty Old Shellback

02/01/2006, 03:30 PM

So are you getting out to ride some between rains? :D

I too have to agree with what has been said here by all of you. It does sadden me to see people put a name on a coral just for profit.

I have some really nice zoo's but have not taken any pic's to add to the zoaid site as of yet. One reason is I don't want to be bombarded with emails or PM's for them. The second is I don't really care if they are named or not, I just enjoy them in my tank.

And yes I have posted some on here before with a name on them and got bombarded with PM's to trade. Worst part was they came to me for a trade and then wanted me to pay for shipping both ways for their coral AND my zoo's. I told them I guess your superman dane is worth a whole lot more to you then than it is to me and passed. ;)

I don't mind trading my zoo's with other liked minded people. One for one is all I have ever asked. :D

smp

02/01/2006, 04:27 PM

You guys know what?
I've been emailing back and forth with this guy and he's not a bad guy at all. I retract what I said about him because he did come off as an @#$!#@ at first, but I'm sure I did as well when I first sent him a message.

No rides between rain for me. I learned in the winter of 04/05 what race tires mean on cold hard asphalt :)
Not fun.

whodah

02/01/2006, 04:36 PM

nice smp!

i don't know you nor doctor, but i do know it takes a lot to say something like that - especially on a public forum.

kudos! :)

whodah

02/01/2006, 06:17 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6640882#post6640882 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
IMO, I think zoaid is getting popular enough that it should really decide if it's main goal is for "fun" or if it really wants to live up to the statement "The Difinitive Repository for Named Zoanthids". IMO that's a pretty bold statement considing anyone can take a pic of their zoas, they could photoshop them, juice them up with 20K's or whwatever and then submit them to you and they will be on there in a day or two.

interesting perspective, hadn't seriously considered it like that... that title was 1/2 way in jest. i could change it to say 'self proclaimed' in front, heh! but point well made!

the requirement of a flash shot is interesting...

lastly - no worries on taking offence to yer statements. none taken at all! i know they're not personal. :D

diddye

02/01/2006, 06:46 PM

in the end, you can't really blame the buyers if they're willing to pay that much. if they're rich and stupid enough to get it, hey more power to them. Sometimes the availability of corals are so low that ebay is the only thing they can turn to especially if they live in a small city. If anything, you can try to make your own money and sell your zoos and in turn, drive down the market by flooding it.

smp

02/01/2006, 07:39 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6644226#post6644226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by diddye
[B]in the end, you can't really blame the buyers if they're willing to pay that much. if they're rich and stupid enough to get it, hey more power to them.

This is exactly why I felt bad for saying anything to him in the first place.

Sometimes the availability of corals are so low that ebay is the only thing they can turn to especially if they live in a small city.

He described how much he was paying for corals and the practices of his local club (which he says he started) and I felt bad. If you live in the boons and have no access to stores or other hobbyists I'm sure you would end up paying a lot for corals.

Bottom line, he posted stuff online, I explained why I didn't like his 'marketting' tactics and that was that. If people are willing to pay high prices that's their choice.

Zoalander

02/01/2006, 08:32 PM

I think the guy is a genius. The people that are bidding on these deserve what they get, he's not doing anything illegal. The only way to bring these prices down is for all of us to do the same thing he's doing. We shouldn't be mad at him, we should be mad at the grown adults who are bidding.

Azurel

02/01/2006, 08:39 PM

There is nothing wrong with naming unique color morph of zoas or any other coral for the purpose of differentiating it from others and to make ease of identification to others that are looking for them. I mean is a superman Monte really a superman? They named it that because of the colors in line with superman's outfit. Is Purple people eaters really purple people eaters? NO...but when you looking for a specific color morph it is much easier to say PPE, G.I.Joes as opposed to those purple ones or those red ones or green ones ect.....If it is done for the sole purpose of trying to make it a fade and be able to sell them at exuberant prices then there maybe an issue, but just to name them so we all can differentiate them form other color morphs is fine. How would you describe eagle eyes to someone without having the name? It's a little more difficult, where as you can just say trade me some eagle eyes for your PHE. I don't think there should be names for everyone because some are just so similar, but those that are unique like PHE, PPE's ect.... why not have a name? It don't hurt anything and I don't think Zoaid.com can really be used to up somebodies prices because the purpose of the site is to show and give example to the name of the color morph not to establish the rarity of such zoa. You would still pay high prices for PHE,PPE if Zoaid.com was around or not and some of these others that go for high prices would still go for high prices irregardless of Zoaid.com.

Just my .02

smp

02/01/2006, 08:55 PM

I don't buy zoos unless I see them in person. No 'description' required. I buy what I think looks good and then I enjoy it in my tank for the same reason.

surfnvb7

02/01/2006, 09:08 PM

I knew this would happen when this particular topic emerged quite a while ago, and there was lengthy discussion with whoda about it. then adding that "super zoa" section was just throwing fuel on the fire, just asking for people to capitalize on that.

i dunno, this used to be all for "fun", but obviously people are taking advantage of it now. so i'm gonna have to say name it what you want, buy it for what you want...

but seriously, if you aren't helping the situation you are part of the problem (not directed solely at you whoda).

i can already tell you i know of a LFS that sold a certain zoa for a certain price last year, and now that zoaid has gone up and people from that LFS look on here, they have used it to inflate the price about 200% by slapping a label on it.

yes...this is good ole captatilism at its finest, and theres not much you can do about it other than not supporting the practice.

i for one, wish zoaID would at least revamp the site to make it less succeptable to people trying to place a market value on namming zoas, which......even though unintentional, zoaID is fueling the fire for.

Azurel........in response to your "superman monti" comment. the superman monti was a specific STRAIN, that started from a specific person, and was not meant to be anything other than from that particular strain. then "look-a-likes" flooded the market, the price drove up, and now most people dont even know the difference b/w what the REAL superman monti looks like and all the infamous fakes out there with brown/maroon polyps and an off-blue base. The same can be said about the "safecracker zoas" IMO.

this whole naming thing has gotten way out of hand, and i for one will no longer support it, or the practice of it by buying any.

do we really want named zoas to be the next "craze"? like the rics of a year and a half ago? and the acans of last year? these crazes kill the hobby by making it a capitalist venture.

dc_909

02/01/2006, 09:34 PM

If you are dumb enough to buy the "hype" given to a coral by it's name instead of buying it because you enjoy the piece. then you its your own fault. If it's worth $360 to you, then go for it.

I only buy what I see in person.

Azurel

02/01/2006, 09:42 PM

That's partially my point, the name does not dictate the rarity of a specific color morph with in the hobby but describes the color of it only. There is no one here that can not tell me that an actual PPE isn't unique with in the hobby. Does this mean its rare in the wild no, but the name describes a zoa that is unique on to itself. Just like some others that are named and described and traded everyday. The name has nothing to do with what it should cost or what a price should be. The problem is that people have put to much weight on the name as it pertains to value or price. 2 months ago I bought a colony of eagle eyes that had around 120 polyps on it for $35, they knew what the color morph was called but is still just a zoa and they didn't raise the price because it was a named morph. If your LFS does then they have issues some of these color morphs are quite unique to the hobby and you will pay more for them with Zoaid.com out there or a name applied to them or not because some of these are in high demand and don't think for one minute that LFS, traders don't know it if they know the name or not. THis hobby is a capitalist venture wither we like it or not somebody is going to sell and buy with or with out a name placed on the coral. If an online place or LFS has never seen a specfic color or they know that it is unusall with in the market there will be a higher price paid for it.........Thats why with zoas it is much better to trade and be fair about trading and selling with in our community then allowing the LFS and on-line vendors to dictate the price or the value because said coral has a name on it. As far a ebay goes that really shouln'd dictate the price of anything, it is an auction which the price is based on what one person is willing to buy a said coral for. If someone buys a PPE for $1000 does that mean that the PPE is now worth that much no, it's just that one person was willing to spend that much to get it. Very few LFS and on-line vendors have all of there zoa coloies the same price because the price is going to be dictated but size and color. I have not seen one place that all of the colonies are the same price no matter what size,color ect...Thats not to say they are not out there but I have never personaly seen one.

whodah

02/01/2006, 09:47 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6645571#post6645571 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by surfnvb7
then adding that "super zoa" section was just throwing fuel on the fire, just asking for people to capitalize on that.

can you please elaborate on what you mean by "super zoa" section?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6645571#post6645571 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by surfnvb7
i for one, wish zoaID would at least revamp the site to make it less succeptable to people trying to place a market value on namming zoas, which......even though unintentional, zoaID is fueling the fire for.

i'm always open to suggestions, simple or extensive! :D have anything particular in mind?

tekknoschtev

02/01/2006, 10:01 PM

While it sort of makes me mad, I beleive its somewhat out of jealousy. If I felt morally ok with selling a frag pack of my zoas for $350+, I can tell you in a heart beat I'd do it! Who in their right mind would turn down an easy $350? But I have this theory that for the most part, I havent spent a fortune on my zoas, and I can pass that along. Case and point - I have sold MANY frags of my yellow-skirted green-centered zoas. I paid $50 for about 70-100 polyps, and I sell it generally about $10 for 20-30 polyps. I have easily paid for the colony in frags, and on top of that, the colony is 2-3 times as large as it was when I bought it. In my mind, it works out. On paper (after playing with numbers) the colony was free, and has grown considerably. While I could probably get $1-$1.50 per polyp, it doesnt make sense to me ethically to do it.

And I also agree that if you are buying a coral due to a name, and not its relative appearance in your tank, you deserve to spend a high price. In this capitalist world, thats the only fair way to look at it. I do disagree with using zoaID to drive the price up, however, we live in a society of "buyer be ware" and truth be told, if you think that people will like your tank more because you have "safecracker" zoas, or "PPEs" then by all means, shell out the bucks. I buy corals based on color and appearance - plain and simple.

CoralNutz

02/01/2006, 10:21 PM

Wow, I sure didn't think this thread would ever make it to a page two :lol:

I just want to clarify, I never said this guy was a "bad" guy. Just something I seen and found amusing. Sure it's good marketing, but anyone with an ethical bone in thier body has to admit it's a tad on the shady side. I mean the guy makes a point in huge red letters to tell people the are now "Super Zoo" status because they were "just listed" on zoaid.

I can agree with Steve. If I put 23 polyps for auction on Ebay and the bid went up to $360 I certainly wouldn't turn the money down. But I think using the zoaid site in an attempt to up the price is real shady.

(No offense to you Whodah :) )
If I ran a website and seen that someone did that, listed a coral one day prior so he could use it in his ebay auction to elevate his zoa status to a "Super Zoo" I think I would have pulled the pics from my site just on principle. It personally would make me feel like I was being used to make this guy a bunch of $$$.

RevHtree

02/01/2006, 11:11 PM

I think if someone wants to sell them at a high price, and someone is willing to buy them, then buy all means do so. If you dont want to buy them, dont.

Not trying to be rude, but what do you all do for a living? Do you like to get paid? If you could make more money would you?

Just some things to think about, and dont jump on the preacher... ;)

RevHtree

02/01/2006, 11:13 PM

PS. I love zoaid.com and will be submitting more pics soon!! I think that naming these beautiful zoas is fun, and I like to know that I had a hand in it.

I know most of you like zoaid.com and I know what your saying about people using it for profit. There is a fine line there though.

CoralNutz

02/02/2006, 06:25 AM

RevHtree, your kind of condradicting yourself.... The issue isn't selling zoas on ebay and getting lots of money. The issue IS using zoaid to up the price, which IMO is an unethical thing to do. So your first post there your saying hey we all like to make money, then your second post your say "There is a fine line there though".... So I am not saying that people shouldn't make money. I think there is an ethical way to make money, and then of course, this other way.

Wow, are you really a pastor? If so, I can't believe you would condone such unethical behavior.

If I have a car to sell and it's a ford escort. And I list it as a super rare exotic luxury machine. And sure most people are smart enough to know better. But I keep it listed that way and wait for some sucker that doesn't know any better to buy it for 4x market value. Would that be OK too? Just because some sucker is willing to pay me 4x the money, does that make it ok that I decieved people to get the money? IMO, that guy is trying to decieve people into thinking those are some super rare gems of the sea. IMO, the only possible way this guy is acting ethically and responsibly is if he honestly believes they are "Super Zoo"s. If not he's clearly trying to decieve someone that doesn't know any better. IMO, the latter is the case here.

RevHtree

02/02/2006, 07:17 AM

I was condoning capitalism-An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Cars and Zoas are alot different. Thats like comparing Apples to Oranges. You can't. Cars have a market and set values basically. This naming zoas is fairly new and no one really knows what the market for them are. Just because you wouldnt pay a certain amount for them, or just beacuse you have seen them cheaper doesnt make it law.

I understand what you are saying about using decietful ways to drive the prices up and thats not good, but if its listed and the cost goes up due to the demand, thats another thing.

I wasnt condoning ripping people off by use of zoaid.com. Maybe I missed the initial point you all were making. I do not condone deciet.

And yes I am a pastor/human.....why does everyone bring that up when what i say goes against what they believe. Maybe it was a mix up. Trust me I am a good and honest man, and a good Pastor as well.

Thanks.

manoverboard

02/02/2006, 07:17 AM

I think zoaid is a great resourse it gives us the ability to quickly identify the zoas that we trade and talk about.It should also help clear up 20k and (god forbid) photoshoped zoa trading,although some of the zoaid pics look(whisper) shopped.I agree that some of the zoas on this website are double posted under different names that really saddens me because it defeates the purpose for the website .to clear up the zoas we are talking about.As for the price hype its ,in my opinion ,not the fault of zoaid.Im glad someone has taken the time to try to help zoa collectors identify new zoas.I wish zoaid would post pics of these zoas under different lighting though it would help clear up some of those 20k pics.AS for the super zoa section this is the opinion of the propriter of zoaid and should be left to the descression of the users to be a valid resourse.

CoralNutz

02/02/2006, 07:28 AM

RevHtree,

You are correct zoas are zoas and cars are cars, definately not the same thing. However deciet is deciet, and decieving people on coral purchases is no better than decieving people on car purchases.

I guess I was just posting because I thought it was amusing. My intention wasn't to start any arguing. It has however made me think about the zoanthid naming issue more though. I plan to PM whodah to ask him to remove any pictures of mine that are on that site. I do not wish to have anything to do with the zoanthid naming the way it is happening at the present time.

I really think IDing zoas is a good thing and it would be great to have a site that did that. But I think it needs to be done in a more accurate way sort of way. More of a zoanthid catalog type project, that tracked specific zoas, where they went, and also pictures of the same exact zoas in diffferent peoples tanks under different lighting.

RevHtree

02/02/2006, 08:01 AM

I wasnt condoning ripping people off by use of zoaid.com. Maybe I missed the initial point you all were making. I do not condone deciet.

I think we are just on two different pages. I like you Coralnutz you are a very knowledgeable person and I think I have been misunderstood to a degree because when I first made my initial post, I just though we were talking about the thread title which was "Wonder How High This One Will Go." I was merely saying that if it goes high, then well and good for the seller and the buyer if he felt it was a good deal. I didnt address, in my mind, the use of Zoaid.com to jack the prices up. You are right That is WRONG.

I think deciet is wrong in any form or fashion. Please forgive me if it looked like I thought otherwise. I need to read all post before responding.

Thanks.

RevHtree

02/02/2006, 08:04 AM

I agree with your last statement, although I am thankful for the steps that have already been made by Zoaid. I always thought it was kinda just for fun anyway, but since it is being used wrongly then maybe there is something that can be done to get things more precise. But even then it will be abused like everything else.

Jovreefer

02/02/2006, 08:39 AM

I think the problem with this guys auction is plain and simply, he is stating his zoa's were PICKED to go on zoaid because they are amazing and rare bla bla...When in reality all he did was submit a picture to whodah with the name he picked and whodah put them up. As soon as they were up he posted his ebay auction.

There is no regulations to putting pics up right now but the avarage Jo does not know that & thinks "ohh these zoa's were picked to go on THE naming site! they must be rare I gotta have!

When in reality I think if someone were to submit "poop brown" zoas they would be put up.

Azurel

02/02/2006, 09:13 AM

Maybe Zoaid.com should have a disclaimer about using it as a price point and that it is not the intent of the site to show rarity but just name the color morph no more no less. Maybe having a voting page where people can vote on the name or if the zoa should be posted, or it is to similar to another zoa so it shouldn't be posted.

CoralNutz,
Why have those pics removed? I understand the ideology behind your point with the eBay guy which cheapens the purpose, but what makes you think that it will change with everybody dumping on it. Especially those who have contributed to it now disparaging it and taking there zoas home because they don't wanna play any more. The right thing to do in my book is for us all to come together and find a solution that allows us to name these zoas and keep it fun, but at the same time make it so that anybody who uses the Zoaid.com site or a named zoa a selling point to increase their profit look bad not the other way around.

I really think that Whodah's site would be cheapened if you guy's have your pics removed, you guys submitted them in an honest and fun manner so don't let these other incredulous people ruin it for you and us. I'm sure there is a solution it's just a matter of finding it.
Again just my .02.

Crusty Old Shellback

02/02/2006, 09:23 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6645913#post6645913 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azurel
Very few LFS and on-line vendors have all of there zoa coloies the same price because the price is going to be dictated but size and color. I have not seen one place that all of the colonies are the same price no matter what size,color ect...Thats not to say they are not out there but I have never personaly seen one.

Funny you should mention that. That right there tells me they are gouging us. ;)

I got the chance to visit a wholesalers in LA. It's one of the better know ones and they have been around for a long time importing from the south pacific. They had a rather large vat full of all colors and sizes of zoa's. Know what, the price was the same, no matter what color or size rock you got. And they had some of the NAMED zoa's in that holding tank as well.

So all of the hype is coming from us and the retailers, not the wholesalers. That means it's up to us to reverse it. ;)

CoralNutz

02/02/2006, 10:00 AM

Azurel,

I would like to have my pictures removed because by having them there, it indicates that I support the site and what it represents. I think the idea of the site was good intentioned, but I think it's gotten a little out of hand and I just don't want my name associated with it any longer. I guess the thing that bothers me is the statement about it being the definitave repository of name zoanthids, it's a pretty bold statement. Even if it was made in gest, uninformed people may think it is actually the end all of zoanthid naming. That ebayer is certainly hoping people will feel that way. I am sure others that do the same thing before private sales or trades feel the same.

I have brought up some concerns about the site and how there are duplicates listed as the same things, things named the same thing that are completely different species, photoshopped pix, scandolous peoples that only post there stuff on their in an attempt to make some more money. Hopefully someday there will be a zoanthid cataloging project and I would love to help out. But I just do not think I want to leave my pictures with my name attatched to them if the site is going to be used for these purposes. I understand that it wasn't whodah's intention for this stuff to go on, but I think by not doing anything and making it SO easy to get your zoanthids "published" to the "definitive repository of named zoanthids" and escelate them to "Super Zoo" status isn't helping the problem... That was the end of the line for me. So in the future I will be supporting zoanthid cataloging, but not the naming. I think it's gotten way out of hand. Like others have mentioned, people are getting way more into what the zoas are named and not so much what they look like. I see so many threads titled "What are these called" or "Do these have a name" and I think it's getting out of hand so I choose not to feed into that or support that by having my pictures of my corals with my name on them located on that site. I don't think there will be many others that want to remove thier corals. For the most part people seem pretty content with the way things are going.

whodah

02/02/2006, 10:05 AM

heya!

there are plans in place to help address these issues - but they won't happen overnight...

CN: check yer PM and get back to me! :D

Mr. Ugly

02/02/2006, 01:53 PM

Good FAQ page on ZoaID:
http://www.zoaid.com/index.php?name=FAQ&id_cat=1

Looked all over, but could not find a link for "Super Zoo". I think that was creative marketing on the part of the Ebay seller.

Whodah, you need to have an alternate site without names :) Main page to ZoaID can let people pick the names or no-names site :)

You can title the alternate site, "The Not Necessarily Definitive Repository of Numbered Zoanthids - First Come, First Served" :)

dc_909

02/02/2006, 01:55 PM

Whodah;

Just keep doin' what your doin'

Good job!

surfnvb7

02/02/2006, 03:39 PM

I agree with you CoralNutz on your opinions. I like the idea of a site dedicated to submitted pics of zoanthids, but not the naming part (which ultimately is associated with whatever your individual definition of "rare" is).

Whodah, I still think a better way is to group them by colors, then show a pic of say "Blue Zoa Variety #1", then after you click on that picture with the title, it will show a list of "alliases" it has been called by, and "look-a-like" pictures. Thus, directing the attention AWAY from the name, and onto the unique color/pattern of the zoa in question.

Very few LFS and on-line vendors have all of there zoa coloies the same price because the price is going to be dictated but size and color. I have not seen one place that all of the colonies are the same price no matter what size,color ect...Thats not to say they are not out there but I have never personaly seen one.

blown63chevy, I agree with your statement.

My 2 closest LFS's that sell zoa colonies are for a set price, as this is the way it comes from their wholesaler (from L.A. cali). Color does not matter, and size doesn't matter for the most part. I'd say each colony at the LFS avg's about 3"x3" for $35. Give or take about 1"x1" in some cases. But color does NOT matter...UNLESS you specifically ask them to order "Blue Zoas", then of course the wholesaler will charge more, b/c 1)-they can, 2)-they gota put the effort into finding a blue colony out of those giant tubs

alot of LFS's get them wholesale this way, then interpret a higher price for certain colors based on supply/demand of the area...which is very reasonable the way I see it.

and I have heard of some wholesale places that sell based on color, which ultimately means a larger price tag for the consumer so the LFS that buys from them can make a profit.

...so, it goes both ways...but odds are the wholesale places are gonna care less unless its something that they can profit BIG TIME on (i.e. blue zoas, acans etc.) which are NOT "rare" anymore. once people started calling them rare, then they send out the divers to bring more in, and then slowly trickle them into the market to make their big profits. blue zoas and acans are so easy to find now.

zoas are so common in the ocean, and in a million different color varieties, they are not gonna make huge bucks for the wholesaler to put time and money into sorting out the common ones from ALL of the so called rare ones, or ones with so called names. sorting out just "blues" is alot easier, or just "reds". thus, this is why I'd like to see the ZoaID focus on these factors FIRST, then give them whatever allias names you feel like it, I could care less. Just take the emphasis away from the naming issue.

So yes, just about all of the hype is coming from us and the retailers. And again, if you aren't helping the situation, you are part of the problem.

EvilMel

02/02/2006, 03:55 PM

I posted one of my zoos on the ZooID website but it was only because people around town kept calling them "EvilMel's green zoos". I have given/sold these dang zoos to so many people that they are becoming more and more common. I just thought it would be fun to show them on the website and then if someone had them in another state they could say "hey! that's what I just got."

I didn't raise the price. Actually I still sell them how I always did: $10 for like 20 polyps and $15 for a LOT more polyps. I mean if the frag is like a small colony I'll sell it for $15, hah hah.

When I posted in here about another zoo I have, CoralNutz told me that it looked like a red ring PHE. I disagreed but I did not list it on zooID. I just didn't want to post pics of zoos that look really really similar to ones that are already up on the site. Also, just because it looks similar to a red ring PHE doesn't mean I am gonna charge out the yinyang for them. I'll still charge the same amount I charge for all of my zoos = $10 for a frag.

So my point is that there are some of us out there who are using the website appropriately and just because some people aren't doing the same...well...no offense, but it's kind of like you are taking your toys and going home.

Yeah it sucks that that guy used the website like that. It's totally wrong, but if there is no website to go to where we can actually SEE what a zooanthid looks like then any schmo off the street can claim to have a PHE and sell it for $20 per polyp. I guess the same thing does happen with the pictures up there, but I at least use it as a reference point. Without your pictures (CoralNutz) of the red ring PHEs, I would have totally listed my zoo and called it something new. But yours showed the zoo in different lighting and I saw how truely similar it was, allowing me to make an informed decision about whether to post it up there.

CoralNutz

02/02/2006, 05:05 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6651185#post6651185 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EvilMel
So my point is that there are some of us out there who are using the website appropriately and just because some people aren't doing the same...well...no offense, but it's kind of like you are taking your toys and going home.

I don't think I would call it "taking my toys and going home" I never ever submitted pics of mine cause I wanted them on there. I was asked if he could use them on his site. At the time I thought to myself, sure why not. I guess I just disagree with what the site seems to be all about and decided it's in my best interest to not have my photos or name on their.

I wish whodah the best with the site, I think it's becoming a big hit. After all every other thread on the zoa forum seems to be "Do these have a name yet" or "What are these called".

JnS

02/02/2006, 07:52 PM

what are my brown zoa's called..... :lol:

Crusty Old Shellback

02/03/2006, 09:45 AM

EvilMel,
How's the Naso doing?

Anyway I'm gla dto hear that you follow the same rules that I do. I have several zoo's that are unique but i don't give in to the hype and up my prices. I'm basically the same as you small frags for 10 bucks. i'd much rather trade zoo's 1 for 1 than sell them though.

Funny thing happened with one of my unique zoo's I bought from a fellow reefer. There was a thread started about soem that looked really similar to mine. I posted a pic of them in that thread. Next thing I know, the originator of teh thread PM's me telling me they sell for like 20 buks a poylop and that mine came from him. I remineded him of which zoo's I did get from him and they weren't the ones in question.

I did think it was a bit rediculas to sell them at that price. I continue to trade these zoo's with others or sell them at my regular price, 10 bucks a frag as I do with all of my frags. I've even donated some to our club raffels to help support the club as well as just given some away to club members because they came to my house and thought they looked cool. The only thing I asked was that they didn't start selling them at a huge markup.

My zoo's have now been distributed across the country. I just hope they don't show up on Ebay with a big price tag on them :rolleyes:

tekknoschtev

02/03/2006, 10:19 AM

blown63chevy - your practices are very similar to mine. I couldnt justify ethically charging $20/polyp, even if thats close to what I paid. $10 frags seem to be a big hit among my local forum, and truth be told, I'd rather sell things at well under what they could get, that way more people have a greater variety of zoas, and on top of that, I get a good selling reputation for it. $5-$10 frags (depending on size, generally 10-30+ polyps respectively, but sometimes quite a few more) seems fair to me. I'm still a newbie in respect to this hobby, and I prefer to spend less, get smaller frags and grow them out, and I know I'm not alone in that respect :D

Gllad to hear others practice the same!

mummra100769

02/03/2006, 10:48 AM

hmmm... as someone who has many pics up and named on that site this thread has given some things to think about.

whodah

02/03/2006, 11:08 AM

indeed.

ok, quick fix put into place on ebay linking. hopefully i didn't break anything in the process. if i did, please let me know!

i've got a lot of changes in the works that i'll try and get implemented on an accelerated schedule. i've got some coding promised to our local reefing club (CVR (http://www.cvreefers.org)) that i need to do first, but gimme a couple weeks and the changes will be in place.

please remember that i do this stuff when i have free time and some changes will take time! :)

/edit - fixed a broken bbcode

Mr. Ugly

02/03/2006, 11:37 AM

Whodah, you kill me, man! That's an awesome quick fix :)

Funniest thing I've seen all week. You Dah Man :)

jerrymlr1

02/03/2006, 12:05 PM

Something like this was bound to happen. Just needs to be fixed and the bugs worked out, not scrapped.
CoralNutz, I for one certainly appreciate you putting your zoas on the zoaid site. The site is cool not ot mention helpful. I say let people make million$ if they do it honestly. If anyone needs to pull their zoas off it's that yokel on ebay.
Jerry

Reef Junkie

02/03/2006, 12:05 PM

First off, I'd like to start by saying, "this is all Who-dahs fault!" :mad:

Secondly, I have to be the one to break up all this feel good cheer going around.

I do agree that helping another reefer out with cheap frags is great. Yet, I am a bit more self centered. Unlike some of you guys that are independantly wealthy, I actually use my zoa sales to make extra cash. I have two small children, wife and bills out the whazoo!

I will not sell them at high prices to people I know, or local club members. But, people that I do not know, or that are contacting me for one thing and one thing only (frags) they pay premium prices.

The last time I checked it's costing me $100. a month for just electric, nevermind all of the other expenses that I incur.

Plus my time as a reefer tending these animals. There is also the cost involved in purchasing the animals.

Again, I think it's great that a lot of us reefers give other reefers a break, but again, we are not all independantly wealthy.

I do think that using Jeremy's site as a way to sell zoas is cheezy. I have never done it and will not begin now.

Ebay is a way for some reefers to buy their zoas without having to join this or any other club. I know all of you fellow sociopaths out there cannot understand it, but a lot of reefers don't want to be a part of a public forum.

Sometimes there is so much "stupid" drama here that it's really lame and sophmoric. (I would be guilty of being both of those);)

Thats why Ebay is a great way for them to get what they want without having to speak to you or I.

I mean, come on, are any of us really that interesting? To each other we are, but we're a separate breed; Reef Nerds.

NERDS!

:lmao:
<--- Stepping down from soap box.

Crusty Old Shellback

02/03/2006, 12:26 PM

I wouln't call myself independantly wealthy. I'm lucky if I can afford gas for my vechiles from time to time. LOL.

For me, this is a hobby, not a income I depend on. If I can't afford something, I either don't buy it or figure out a way to make it myself. If it's corals, then I try to trade for it. The majority of corals I have in my tank were either bought from fellow reefers who were clearing out their tanks or frags I traded for. So I try and pass on to my fellow reefers what I was able to aquire.

The more we propagate and passa round our corlas, the less we have to depend on the ocean and price gouging LFS/Ebay sellers for them. Let's share the wealth among each other is my motto. Not everything evolves around money you know. ;)

The part that eats me up the most is people sticking a name, LE or rare moniker on something just for profit. There are some well named people in the bussiness who have done just this. That's why you see all of the fad corals with the high prices.

Funny thing is, all of the corals came from the ocean, to call one rare or LE is only beause it has not been collected in masses yet. If it's really that rare, then it should be left in the ocean.

The other side of that coin is the people who say you must be able to trace the leianege of the coral back to the person who named it. BS. There are a ton of corals out in the ocean that are identical. To say that my coral is not XXX because I can't trace it back to YYY who had it first is BS. If it looks like ST, smells like ST and taste like ST, then it must be ST.

Reef Junkie

02/03/2006, 01:16 PM

Yep, I understand BC. But I do depend on sales of my zoas at least 3 -4 times a year. It's still a hobby for me, but I do need the extra income.

Everything else I agree with when it comes to lineage. I think it's BS.
Eventually, theses named corals become saturated in the hobby and the price drops. But there are 5-100 new named corals waiting for that spot all the time. You should know. Remember the Stuber Acropora? That was the must have coral, not for it's color (brown and white) but because it was circulating around the world. People paid big bucks for some of those frags.

Anyway, I still feel this is all Jeremey's fault.;)
Bill

Crusty Old Shellback

02/03/2006, 01:38 PM

The big problem, and it will never change is that it's not just a problem we have within our hobby. Look at main stream America and the auto industry.

Call it a Chevy and pay this much, add a bit of leather and call it a caddy and pay double. Throw a weird body on a truck frame and call it a hummer and even double the price again. Bottom line, it's still a basic chevy truck underneath.

They all do it:
Chevy/caddy, Ford/lincon, Toyota/lexus, Nissan/Infinity.

I can understand making some extra cash on the side to support your hobby. I just hope your not going to the extreems that the person on Ebay is going to. ;)

There's a difference between raising the price a bit because of demand and being a schister, gouging everyone. ;)

Reef Junkie

02/03/2006, 01:47 PM

Hey man, what's your first name anyway?

Nah, if I was getting prices like that on Ebay, I'd never sell here again!:lol:
Besides, if that guys is getting $300+ for his zoas on ebay, I'd make $1k for some of my zoas. His are common and boring. Except the safe crackers. Those are the only ones that would fetch a higher price.

Otherwise, I sold some PPE's a short while back and sold them for $20 a polyp. I had orders for 1 & 2 polyps. Each person I sent corals to not only got between 3 and 5 polyps, they also recieved extra bonus corals. So in total, they paid about $5 a polyp.

I think I'm fair and not a schister.;)

On a side note, what kind of Chevy do you have? Pics?:)

Jovreefer

02/03/2006, 01:58 PM

Just an FYI everyone...

this guy has 2 other e-bay auctions listed for his zoa's and he listed the EXACT link for his zoa's, THEN he goes on to state they have been added in the repository for RARE zoas.

Thank god WhoDah changed the links for e-bay and they all now go to a message stating this is not what the site is for! I wonder if he's seen this yet ... lol.

I dont mind people selling things for more money... I'm with reef junky...I do it too! I sold PPEs to pay for almost a whole year of college in 04. (thank you to all who contributed to my college fund ;) )
What I do mind is someone lieing about having a "rare" zoa and making a great site cheap to get more money.

Crusty Old Shellback

02/03/2006, 02:32 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6658201#post6658201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef Junkie
I think I'm fair and not a schister.;)

On a side note, what kind of Chevy do you have? Pics?:)

Me Too. ;)

I've got a '63 long bed chevy truck I've been slowly truning into a pro street. 600hp/600ftlb tq stroked 385 SBC w/ a mini supercharger on top. Here's a link to some photo albums of some of my toys. ;)

Ray ;)

http://community.webshots.com/user/blown63chevy

rhoodhouse

02/03/2006, 02:39 PM

Here is one for the fire......

I am currently the high bidder on this frag pac. I don't care what you guy's think about this guy he has 100% positive feedback. That means everyone who has bought from him was happy. Also the price for this frag pac is not $300 it is a lot less and I really like the "Day Trippers" so I'm going to try to buy them. If I get out bid then that is ok too.

Rodney Hood

ps Whoda Good job on the link.....

Mr. Ugly

02/03/2006, 03:17 PM

:)

The Day Trippers which are supposed to be different from my Blue Eyed Girls on ZoaID?

Eeesh... if I blasted my zoos with 20k's and a ton of actinic they'd turn out to be the same zoos, I thought. I have 2x250 14k and 2x95 actinic on mine.

Anyway, mine are lined up for some thermos trades with some nice reefers on ZoosRus :)

Thermos trades are cool! No need for $50 shipping on top of the bid price.

CoralNutz

02/03/2006, 03:23 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6658593#post6658593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rhoodhouse
Here is one for the fire......

I am currently the high bidder on this frag pac. I don't care what you guy's think about this guy he has 100% positive feedback. That means everyone who has bought from him was happy. Also the price for this frag pac is not $300 it is a lot less and I really like the "Day Trippers" so I'm going to try to buy them. If I get out bid then that is ok too.

Rodney Hood

ps Whoda Good job on the link.....

Maybe you need to re-read through the thread. Nobody said that this was over $300... The LAST one that was just like this, it was a 23 polyp total frag pack and it did go for $360..... PLUS SHIPPING>>>>

This auction still has over 17 Hours to go and hasn't moved much at all in the past couple days.... if you ebay much you should know already that the price will not go up until the last few minutes of the auction.... Hopefully you will be able to get the pack cheaper than the last one. I don't think anyone said they weren't nice zoas and that the guy didn't have good feedback...

Crusty Old Shellback

02/03/2006, 03:29 PM

Let's see HMM:confused:

23 poylops.

That would be 23 bucks plus $7.45 for USPS priorty shipping plus $10.00 for a good thermos.

So thats $40.45 total. so he made over 300 dollars profit on them.

Better bet would be to do a thermos trade. Then you save the 23 bucks and get some new zoo's as well as thin out yours a bit that are overgrowing everywhere.:rolleyes:

Reef Junkie

02/03/2006, 03:29 PM

Ray,
That is so sweet! I want an antique chevy myself, but do not have the knowhow to build it myself. My dream car is a '67 Chevy II Nova. I'll probably have to wait until my kids are out of the house... They're gonna be 3 in May...:rolleyes:

Rodney, if you like them and the price is right, buy em. But FYI, wait until the last 30 or 3 seconds to bid.;)

I need to talk to Jeremy, this database needs some trimming and rules.

rhoodhouse

02/03/2006, 03:35 PM

Just went to look at your "Blue Eyed Girls" those are sweet...
I belive that if you like them and you have the money to burn then get them...Is that not what you guy's think?

The price as of now including shipping is less than $100 for 27 polyps this includes 2 polyps of safecrackers that I do really want. This is a total polyp price of less than $3.70 each. I say that is not too bad.

Rodney Hood

Crusty Old Shellback

02/03/2006, 03:47 PM

Reef Junkie,
Thanks. It's a long process as I'm doing everything myself. Between the truck, house remodel and my reefs, I'm spread pretty thin. ;)

Rodney,
Good luck on them. Just don't get caught up in the moment and push the price too far. ;) It just feeds their ego to do it all again. Have you tried looking around Rc to find someone to trade with? Just a thought. I'd trade but I don't have any safecrackers.

Mr. Ugly

02/03/2006, 03:52 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6659035#post6659035 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rhoodhouse
I belive that if you like them and you have the money to burn then get them...Is that not what you guy's think?
Absolutely.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6659035#post6659035 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rhoodhouse
The price as of now including shipping is less than $100 for 27 polyps this includes 2 polyps of safecrackers that I do really want. This is a total polyp price of less than $3.70 each. I say that is not too bad. I could see myself paying that price for zoos that I really want :) "Real" Safecrackers are cool. ...not like the "fake" ones I have on ZoaID, hahaha. Note that I did describe mine as "not from the original colony". Almost asked Whodah to list them as pSafecrackers, just for a good laugh :)

Good luck to you on your bidding!

Reef Junkie

02/03/2006, 04:04 PM

I'd like to see some of these similar morphs filed under the parent named zoa.
Because really a lot of these zoas are morphs.

JnS

02/03/2006, 04:06 PM

I know the seller, I think it is good for him he used a known site to get more money for his zoa's, all in all it is great marketing.

sure hope someone buys some of my zoa's for that price ;) :lol:

tekknoschtev

02/03/2006, 04:54 PM

Its been said before - as long as you are purchasing the zoas at a price you think is fair, and because you believe they are aestetically pleasing, then go for it! But if you are buying them to have "safecracker" zoanthids or any other specific named zoanthid simply because its "rare" or the next trendy coral - then your wallet is in for a rough ride.

I personally wouldnt pay that kind of price for zoas I didnt see first hand, and even then, I've been known to pass up some deals simply because the price was outrageous. I'm more of the "ask for a frag of 2-3 polyps at the per/polyp price" kind of guy :p Works out well because I get some interesting zoas for a good price, and I have patience to let them grow out :D Not a bash at you, just my personal tastes.

rsteagall

02/03/2006, 08:39 PM

Those frags are easily worth $100(with shiping) and it looks like thats what the total bill will be or about. I went to a frag swap not too long ago and didn't get zoas nearly as colorful and I paid $20 per frag (no shipping). I think you are all putting this guy down for nothing. Heck... I'd love to have named a few zoas and have them represented on zoaid.com. I think most of you would like to have the ability to accomplish the same thing, but simply just don't have the means.

Everyone is just dishin' out too much slack on this.

tekknoschtev

02/03/2006, 08:52 PM

Um... what?

All of us DO have the means by which to post pictures and name zoanthids. Thats not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that it appears as though the seller intentionally abused the purpose of ZoaID to hike the price up - leading the buyer(s) to believe that there is a highly selective process by which zoanthids are "selected" to be placed on the site, when this is simply not the case. Whoda is very open about it, which is a good thing because among the people who understand how it works, we realize that its all in fun and really is not there for the sole purpose of making a buck or two.

If you'd pay nearly $100 for a handful of polyps, then thats your business. At the current moment with shipping its going to be $94. With eBay auctions, generally the price skyrockets in the last few minutes/seconds of the auction. And its got 7 days left! Buying zoas not as colorful for $20 is your own deal - how many polyps was it though?

By the way - you CAN submit zoas to ZoaID to have your name on them as something unique or special, but dont read too much into it, I did it for fun, as I know many of the others did as well. Have you looked on this forum much - many of the people here have some of the most stunning zoas around, just because they arent on ZoaID doesnt mean they dont exist, and just because they dont have a name doesnt mean they arent awesome.

CoralNutz

02/03/2006, 11:24 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6660942#post6660942 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsteagall
...I think most of you would like to have the ability to accomplish the same thing, but simply just don't have the means...

Umm... Yeah, that's it.... :lolspin:

Reef Junkie

02/03/2006, 11:29 PM

Actually, the ad is misleading.
What he is offering are very common zoas. Safecrackers can be had on this forum pretty cheap. The rest of the zoas in his package are so common that I would say they're vendor trash.
His skill is in his wording of the product. He builds up so much hype on the animals that the common person might buy into it. It's as appealing as a used car sales pitch.
Honestly, really nice zoas speak for themselves.
For instance, imagine what these would fetch!
I have these bad boys too.;)http://www.zoaid.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=267&g2_serialNumber=2

Zoalander

02/03/2006, 11:38 PM

I agree 100% with reef junkie, now send me those zoos.

Reef Junkie

02/03/2006, 11:39 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6662302#post6662302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Vetter1980
I agree 100% with reef junkie, now send me those zoos.

:lmao:

JnS

02/03/2006, 11:41 PM

very nice reef junkie :D

asg74

02/03/2006, 11:42 PM

I can't even believe the kind of whining I hear:(
If this guy is SMART enough to submit his zoa's, and get them named before he sells them. That is simply adding credibility and creating a market for his product. I give him credit and think he is VERY SMART for doing so.
I myself found Zooid.com site through HIS ebay auction! I like that there is a place where the Zoa's on ebay, or anywhere else for that matter, that have some crazy name can be researched. How else can you ever compare, to determine the person is in possesion of the actual zoa in question?
Everyone selling a zoa frag has some crazy name for it, lets face we like to name stuff. How are we to know what is the REAL DEAL if they were not cataloged before they were distributed to the masses? I think the Zoaid site needs people like this guy to register his morphs so an industry standard is established and ultimately some credibility established in the names that are tossed around.
Is some name on Zoaid really why the Blue Kiss went for $675 plus shipping??? I think we are just watching some kids with deep pockets feeding a serious coral addiction, some will pay any amount just so you can't have it.
People will pay for what they want,
that is called a free market and the market sets its own price,
that is called Capitalism and,
That is the American way!!
that is, my 2cents

Reef Junkie

02/03/2006, 11:56 PM

Who are you?

CoralNutz

02/04/2006, 12:01 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6662324#post6662324 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by asg74
...How are we to know what is the REAL DEAL if they were not cataloged before they were distributed to the masses? I think the Zoaid site needs people like this guy to register his morphs so an industry standard is established and ultimately some credibility established in the names that are tossed around...

"REAL DEAL" , "industry standard" , "credibility"

Exactly the point of this.. That's NOT what that site is about. It's not like anyone "picks" what zoas go on there nor are there any standards to what goes on there except it can't be a fuzzy picture. All you have to do is email your pics and the name you want them to be and BAM... there they are.... The REAL DEAL, industry standard zoas with some credibility.... :lol:

The point of this thread was never about people paying outrageous amounts for thier corals... I am guilty of that... I have to have something sometimes and am willing to pay a small fortune for it. The point is the guy is misleading people with the zoaid thing and the elevation of his zoas to Super Zoa status. Obviously it worked cause you seem to think that by them being on there they have some sort of credibility... Only thing having your zoas on zoaid means is you can take an unblurred picture and can work your email....

Mr. Ugly

02/04/2006, 01:09 AM

Hehehe... if you really want to see crazy names, go surf reefermadness, http://www.reefermadness.us/RM-Hand-Picked.htm

So over the top. Cracks me up :)

tekknoschtev

02/04/2006, 06:29 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6662324#post6662324 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by asg74
I can't even believe the kind of whining I hear:(
If this guy is SMART enough to submit his zoa's, and get them named before he sells them. That is simply adding credibility and creating a market for his product. I give him credit and think he is VERY SMART for doing so.
I myself found Zooid.com site through HIS ebay auction! I like that there is a place where the Zoa's on ebay, or anywhere else for that matter, that have some crazy name can be researched. How else can you ever compare, to determine the person is in possesion of the actual zoa in question?
Everyone selling a zoa frag has some crazy name for it, lets face we like to name stuff. How are we to know what is the REAL DEAL if they were not cataloged before they were distributed to the masses? I think the Zoaid site needs people like this guy to register his morphs so an industry standard is established and ultimately some credibility established in the names that are tossed around.
Is some name on Zoaid really why the Blue Kiss went for $675 plus shipping??? I think we are just watching some kids with deep pockets feeding a serious coral addiction, some will pay any amount just so you can't have it.
People will pay for what they want,
that is called a free market and the market sets its own price,
that is called Capitalism and,
That is the American way!!
that is, my 2cents

I'm all for capitalism. Really. But thats not what this thread was about. ZoaID doesnt have a professional pannel of zoa experts sitting there night and day pondering which zoanthid will be granted the status of "Super Zoa". If you really looked into it, anyone can submit a picture (but I suspect that might change if people start abusing this privelage). This isnt a catalog, this is a gallery setup by a dedicated hobbyist for some fun. No one is complaining about people spending high prices, we've been through that, to each is own in that respect, but misleading his potential buyers by trying to make ZoaID sound like some super selective process by which industry standards are created; when that simply isnt how it works.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 07:41 AM

Hello Everyone!

Firstly, let me start by stating how much I love Reef Central, always have, it is an amazing resource.

Second, ZOAID I believe to be a great idea. Finally, imagine a single location to go to identify the many different morphs of ZOA it is great. These are two sites I believe are or will become hubs of reef collecting :)

I am a paramedic who owned and ran a computer store for years. In 2003 I went to Iraq as an Expatriate. I set up field hospitals and read reefing and diving magazines during all my spare time. I finally returned to civilian life after some time playing on the streets of Baghdad.
After 20 years of freshwater tanks when I returned I bought my first reef tank and the hobby overtook me. I made so many mistakes and so many financial blunders. Attrition was always a day away. Finally, things started to click and the tank needed LOL "RARE" items... I overpaid for so many things it is horrendous... WHY because I was willing to pay the price. I had to own PPE, Safe crackers and so many others LOL where were you guys at when I was paying $100 a polyp for acanthastreas last year? Many of you probably have more experience than me. I have spent spent most of my life promoting one business venture or another and currently my focus is my reef.
In early 2005 I pulled together 5 of my very rural friends who had had similar failures at reefkeeping and we started Keepers of the reef. It is a very small forum where the reefers of the twin lakes area can share ideas and most importantly affordable frags. We have "Adopted" a school in the MN area to supply corals and frags to thier tanks for high school leval research and to promote the hobby further. We also take new reefers in the area and supply them with advice and some of thier very first frags. In this rural area the only place to get corals is the internet or EBAY or our reef club.
Supporting my tank is very expensive as I enjoy collecting things I should not be able to have :) . I have been taught that if I want something no one will give it to me I must find a way to obtain the funds to support my own projects. In comes EBAY... If I can pay for corals perhaps I can also sell. I have had great luck selling corals and it has allowed me to support my website, my tank and my more aulturistic endeavors.

Summary (Sorry it was so long)

WHODA is the man for coming up with such a well designed and needed site!

I did not list my Zoas there to bump ebay prices I did it because I am a narsisist who enjoys showing my friends "look at my pretty zoos" And to further identify another zoo. I was soooo excited when he put mine up I posted it all over. If at any point WHODA requests that I not reference ZOAID I will immediately stop, further if he wants to remove my ID I accept this... Although I have done ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong.

I do sell on EBAY to make a profit! LOL where were you guys 2 weeks ago when Blue Kiss went for $695? Or 1 week ago when I paid over $300 for it? Please look at my feedback, read it carefully my clients LOVE my corals, my shipping skillz, my communication these are pleased people. This thread should be directed at someone who is ripping off people on ebay with lots of negative feedback... someone who photoshops the pics or misidentifies the corals. I do not set my prices! all of my auctions start at .99 . Clients bid from there.

I hope each auction sells for $1000... NO NO more I paid $2500 for a diamond ring at least 3 times in my life WHY for that little rock? because of demand.... Economics states that Demand drives prices... I do not drive prices up... Demand does... And yes I do want to create demand.

Please check my reef club... www.keepersofthereef.com, say high and see that I strive to promote this entire hobby each day of my life. I love reefkeeping...

And $mp thank you for your retraction... that took balls and I respect you for that. I also enjoyed our exchange :). The rest of you please get to know me before passing judgement, please look at some of the other "Well named" auctions on ebay, I really am nothing special. Thank you for the publicity and hope I can make each and every one of you my clients.

Thank you,

Chris
AKA DOCTOR

jerrymlr1

02/04/2006, 09:07 AM

Here's the problem:

"This corals frags are so sought after that you cannot order them anywhere. Simply put they are only possesed by collectors of the SAFECRACKER REDS (Myself and a few others) gorgeous and unobtainable."

"It has become a SUPER ZOO "

That's all a load of BS. You know and most of us here know it. If you tried that here on RC you wouldn't be selling here anymore. Most of us here are not against profiting from named zoas but the way you go about it is just like a downtown streetcorner car salesman with a load of false hype luring in unknowlegeable reefers probably mostly beginners and taking them for just that.
That's the problem.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 09:23 AM

Jeremy...

That is product promotion... it also is a true and factual statement... Do you have Galaxy blues? Do you have Daytrippers? Nope prolly not because I got a rock from an importer, Thought it was pretty and decided to sell something I had not seen before. When that rock became popular locally I decided that the name I had come up with was worthy of recognition and I submitted it to WHODA. YES! My marketing adds to my auctions. Please go to your local college and sign up for a basic economics class. I am not going to go online and just say "ZOOS for sale" Also spend some time looking at the other auctions LOL I learned much of my wording from those auctions. I would prefer to be friends with you as I have wronged you in no way, But I cannot control your opinions. In this VERY capitalist society you have a right to that opinion and I would glady die to defend that. I also have the right to speak true and factual sales statements and list my corals for .99 .

Peace

CoralNutz

02/04/2006, 09:28 AM

While I do not agree with Doctors marketing (if you want to call it that) methods, it's certainly not against the law and he's free to do what he wants.

I am glad to see that I am not alone in thinking this type of behavior is misleading, and IMO unethical. I am glad someone didn't get taken for $360 this time around.

Also want to say thanks to Doctor for coming out and clearing the air a little. I was almost starting to think that maybe you really believed the stuff that was spewed onto the ebay description. But you have certainly cleared that up. IMO, when people use these tactics for profit motives it really harms the hobby. Not one of your zoas would I consider rare, highly sought after, or super zoos. You have admitted to wanting to "create a demand"... If they were really rare you wouldn't need to "create" the demand with your misleading hype.

whodah

02/04/2006, 09:33 AM

heya!

this is actually jeremy ;)

at any rate, more details in the email i sentcha. but basically, yes: i am asking you (and anyone else) to please not utilize ZoaID as a marketing tool. :)

all ethical and business debates on zoanthid prices/hype/rarity aside, please just don't use ZoaID to assist in that manner as that is far from the site's intentions.

thanks!

CoralNutz

02/04/2006, 09:34 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6663656#post6663656 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776
Please go to your local college and sign up for a basic economics class.

You know they also have business ethics classes at your local college too :rolleye1:

jerrymlr1

02/04/2006, 09:35 AM

Do you have a pic of them galaxy zoas under some 10K or flash lighting Doctor?

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 09:46 AM

... I dont understand .. How wanting to create market demand means that I do not have or sell quality and or rare zoos... If the safecrackers, PPE, armeggedon, Blue Kiss, Tubbs, BamBam ect. in my collections are not highly collectable or rare I want to know what is. I definitly want my other zoos like Galaxy and Daytrippers to continue to rise in popularity, thank you for the publicity, not expected but thank you. I too am overpaying and I want some of the really rare stuff? what is it? is rare not definded as limited quantities? Tell me where I can find the RARE stuff? I didnt make a person pay $360 they chose to... And what does that have to do with you are you the EBAY censor? demand pushed that price there... read their feedback and they say they loved the zoos. I mislead NOONE! I list actual pics of the colonies and how the picture was taken. Get a life man. HEY BY the way I think that my zoo collection is formidably gorgeous and so do my clients... ya know what thats all that matters. The majority of the members on this site are highly intellegent members of the reefing community I in no way ever sought to offend any of you. I mearly promote a hobby I am excited about. I should not ever have expected positive response to my post after the fires had been burning so long.

rhoodhouse

02/04/2006, 09:53 AM

you go doctor!

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 09:55 AM

WHODA...

I am unable to "REMOVE" the link that is in my 2 current auctions.. Ebay will not allow me... only to add. I will in no way further promote or utilize your site to reference or promote my zoos. Forgive me as I wholly misunderstood. I really thought that people needed to know about the site, and to be directed there... It seems a very important resource

CoralNutz

02/04/2006, 09:59 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6663810#post6663810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776
...I should not ever have expected positive response to my post after the fires had been burning so long...

Should not have expected a positive response because MOST reefers, weather they are into zoas, sps, lps or whatever DISAGREE with your tactics and false hype, and MOST do agree it doesn't help the hobby.

I for one dont' think this pubilcity helped you any, :lol:

$360 last weeks auction, this weeks $76.... Next weeks I predict even less. Especially now that you have come out of the closet and admitted your a zoanthid profiteer...

If you don't see what's wrong with what you did, you never will. I am guessing if someone dropped a $20 on the ground and you seen who dropped it and you didn't know the person and could pick it up and pocket it without them noticing, you would.... I would like to think most of us would be like "Excuse me mam/sir, you dropped this $20"

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 10:00 AM

Thanks Rhood...

mummra100769

02/04/2006, 10:06 AM

well lets say this.... your pics are misleading and over done with actinic. as for rarity...maybe the safe crackers but all the others are not rare. i have a rock of the daytrippers that totals over 200 polyps. as for the others lets see some pics under some less blue lighting.

as for zoaid i think human nature will make this site become a marketing tool for getting higher prices on common zoas.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 10:10 AM

What it shows coral nuts is that the last auction had more valuable zoos listed and that all of the reference to ZOAID did nothing. Also stick to reefing as your metaphors are lame. I am not dishonest and until you I do not believe that anyone here had accused me of that. Try not to take it so far man.. you had valid opinions and points you spoil your credibilty with the $20 thingy.... IN the end this entire thread Is simple to complete, Because I respect its members I will not reference ZOAID, I dont know you coral nuts... I do know you started this thread PEACE OUT and look at what I really did to offend you? No reason for us to be enemies... I will not attack you and you just go punch a pillow or something to let go of all that inner rage you have :) its all going to be OK.. Just breath deeply

Chris

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 10:17 AM

We use acintics (and I state this in all of my auctions) to enhance the colors of our corals... Do you not use acintics? I do LOTS and 20K also and I state this over and over... Hey without them most all of my corals look variations of yellows and browns a few pinks even the LOL "RARE" pieces look dull. A real question no sarcasm here -- does this mean all my corals are ugly and useless? nah I'll turn the acintics back on

The answer here is basic and simple IF my corals were FRAUDS my feedback would not be 100%.

CoralNutz

02/04/2006, 10:28 AM

Like I said before, if you don't understand why your tactics are mistleading, dishonest and not very well accepted in the reefing community, you never will. It's OK... There's always going to be someone on ebay with deep pockets that will buy into the crap in your ebay discriptions.

Also, that wasn't really an anology... I didn't compare picking up the $20 to your "marketing" tactics in your auctions. Was just pointing out that some people have different ethical standards. Sorry if that offended you... Just my opinion...

There is no inner rage against you, nor do I think we we need to be enemies... In fact one of my best friends, jns actually promotes what your doing and he thinks it's genious.... I totally 100% DISAGREE with him and encourage him to rethink that position, however I am on my way to his house for lunch and to check out some of his new zoas he got in right after I leave the office this morning. We will continue to be friends and continue to disagree on many things I'm sure. It's nothing personal, just healthy discussion about the reefing hobby. Hopefully people will read this thread and get a little education and stop feeding into this crap...

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 10:46 AM

Thank you for that very healthy response Nuts... I appreciate debate and further respect that you understand we can all have different opinions.

hey enjoy your lunch

awcurl

02/04/2006, 11:16 AM

I've been following this thread from the beginning. IMO the doctor has done nothing that any other business hasnâ€™t already done. Have you guy's ever seen commercials on TV for Toys, Weight Loss, Fitness products, Fast-food ECT... or seen what PPE, PHE are selling for, both of which were named by the originator. Just look at sps anything with the name Mike Palleta, Tyree, Atlantis, Leng Sy, and GARF sells for outlandish prices. Doctor isn't forcing anyone to press the bid button; all his auctions start at .99 cents with no reserve. He hasn't referenced his closed auctions in an attempt to mislead anyone of the Zoa's value. IMO it would have been different if he stated that the Zoa's were worth hundreds of dollars, but he didn't, he let the market rule the price. Are you guy's suggesting he should have ended the auction early to prevent someone from paying what they wanted to pay for the corals?
As for his use of actinic, He states they are under actinic in the auction.

Doctor, sell them while you can I personally see nothing wrong with letting the market set the price.

As for ZoaID Iâ€™m sure some will disagree with it no matter how itâ€™s done, I think its great just as it is. IMO if you donâ€™t like it, donâ€™t use it or start your own site using whatever method you wish. In time the market will decide which they prefer and the standard will be set.
:bum: :beer:

Reef Junkie

02/04/2006, 11:59 AM

Doc,
Listen, I think earlier in the thread I defended peoples rights to sell on "ebay" for what ever they want. It is the way ebay works. If someone likes it then they will pay pay pay...

This is not Ebay. Nor is this site a democracy.
Play by our rules or otherwise you will quickly find yourself on the receiving end of negative public backlash on RC. (which only matters if you think it does)

Here is an overview. We are fair, we don't twist the truth and we are responsible for our actions.

Heck, I said it before, I will do it again. If I put my zoas up on Ebay and described them as you have, then I am almost positive I would make a small fortune. Nevermind money, I have taken so much time to carefully select my zoas. I know what is garbage and what is georgeous.

Your zoas are pretty, but not anything like you describe them.
To me, those 2 polyps of safecrackers are worth $50 shipped. The other zoas should be included as extras.

Like I told you in PM, I applaud your marketing skills. You've also skillfully posted them just as the tax checks are being cashed. Meaning you have people with a little money to burn.

Just do yourself a favor and don't make excuses or defend yourself. I don't think it's your fault that someone wants to spend that kind of money for common zoas.

Welcome to the boards and leave your marketing rhetoric at the door. You'll have you a$$ handed back to you if you use it here.:D

Cheers,
Bill

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 12:04 PM

Just a note* It costs me $46.00 plus a $2.00 box and a heat pack just to ship from here...72653... $50.00 shipped ? I just paid $400 for the 25 polyp safecrackers colony I have been fragging... You are proposing I lose money?

Ehhh
Peace have a nice day

Reef Junkie

02/04/2006, 12:14 PM

Humm, so not only do you sling it, you take it Too!:lol:

Dude, you bought that many frags with one purpose, to resell them. Come on bro. If you were an honest hobbyist, you would have bought only a few polyps and grew out the rest.

There's nothing wrong with that, but don't then try and pass yourself off as an innocent hobbyist. You're an Ebay vendor, dime a dozen.

Whatever you do, don't lose money! I think we're all in the black here, right? :lmao:

tomenugen

02/04/2006, 12:50 PM

The way I see it, he is doing nothing wrong but making capitalism work for him.
I guess it would be ok for him to do what he does if he sets up website, and calling all his corals Limited Edition, and having a story about how he came upon that particular coral. He must not also forget to have a waiting list and charging people "X" amount of money for a itsy bitsy tiny polyp. Then when he decides to sell on ebay if nobody is interested, it would be ok.
Come on people, this is a hobby and we are all adults. Buy what you want and what ever you pay is up to you. $100 can mean alot to you and me, but might not to someone else. There will always be someone smarter, quicker, richer and luckier then you.

tekknoschtev

02/04/2006, 03:54 PM

No one, at least how I see it, has a problem with posting zoas on eBay, and getting high prices for it. The problem is misleading your buyers into thinking that the zoas are something that they arent. ZoaID is not a super selective process - as you, I guarantee, know. Submit a picture with a name and blamo, you have a "Super Zoo". Not true. People do need to know about the site. It is an important resource - but not for market hype.

That being said, your customers are happy, Thats important, but are they happy at the color of the zoas or the fact that they have a "Super Zoo"? Theres a difference here. I'd love to have the same ethics as you - I could make a fortune, but I dont believe in misleading customers and misusing ZoaID.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 05:51 PM

I MISLEAD NOONE... read the auctions and be responsible for your own choices. My zoos ARE everything I say they are... But thank you for your input. Oh and TEK your speech on ethics offends me. Yours is the personality type that propagates a letigeous society where no one is responsible for thier own actions or choices. Before I buy or sell something, ANYTHING I research it... WHY? because I and I alone am responsible for what I choose to buy, not the man who sells it. The zoos I offer are listed @ .99 starting price with the exact pics of the colony and the way that the pic was taken... With re: to ZOAID it is a wonderful place to reference Zoas that IS what it was designed for , That IS what I was doing... My auctions were doing just fine before ZOAID ever came along..... I was excited that my Zoas were listed... I had no Idea that it was so simple I truley believed that WHODA looked at the pics and decided what to add... WHEN I was added I posted it every where... I told my mother... Back off on the ethics talk or come meet with me for a more personal discussion because you are starting to **** me off. I am honest and ethically sound MY very job deals with ethics and the decisions associated with them. Retract your ethics statement or stand up and defend it.

Getting hot

tekknoschtev

02/04/2006, 07:06 PM

Holy crap dude, seriously, no one has a problem with you referencing ZoaID, its the misleading use of ZoaID that got people upset. I dont care about the price, or the reference to ZoaID, but you said it yourself:

I had no Idea that it was so simple

It would be understandable to reference ZoaID from the point that you did IF the selection process was a bit more involved than sending a picture to whoda. I see your point about the buyer be-ware, and I am in no way attacking the quality of your zoas. I personally dont find them all that stunning however, thats my personal taste, and irrelevant to this discussion. Someone (actually, a few people according to eBay) finds them attractive, and thats their choice. The fact that you deliver the product and have a great feedback is awesome, its just the misuse of ZoaID, but you've at least made an attempt to correct that, and claimed you'd no longer use it in such a manner - so this is just beating a dead horse.

From what I can tell the majority of the people here found it UNethical in the manner you used ZoaID so I personally feel it is you who should defend your actions instead of being harsh with anyone who disagrees with what you did. ZoaID even says that is is not designed as a marketing tool, so stating that its purpose is to show a selected few "Super Zoos" is NOT what it was designed for.

But theres no middle ground with you here, so I give up. Whats done is done, and someone will wind up with zoas that they like and you'll be richer for it. No problems there.

CoralNutz

02/04/2006, 07:26 PM

Ummm.... Hey doc.... Who is it that needs to go punch a pillow? I don't think it's us with the issues... I think your mad because most of us disagree with what you did. Now that you weren't able to come to reef central and make us think that what you did was cool, your all upset...

I think we need to agree to disagree... Personally I think you would have been better off with the "I didn't understand how zoaid operated, and really thought my zoas were special" approach vs.... the "I am trying to create a demand for my zoas" approach. But thanks for at least being up front about what your goals are. To buy zoas, so you can chop them up, create a demand for them with "smart marketing", and sell them on ebay for profit.

These are all things you said, that you bought these and paid a lot and now don't want to lose money on them. But in your auction you talk about your wife is "Forcing" you to sell your stuff to make room. How is it your out of room for the safecrackers when you only just got a 25 polyp frag? You must have a tiny tank or what? The real truth is, according to you anyway, that you are looking to make a profit selling zoas and acting like a "hobbiest" when in reality your a zoanthid profiteer.

BTW? Where is your April tank of the month posted? You said you couldn't link to it in the auction, but you were able to link to zoaid without a problem, what's the difference?

Reef Junkie

02/04/2006, 07:41 PM

Yeah, this thread is getting out of hand.
I think it needs to be closed.
Mods?

JnS

02/04/2006, 08:07 PM

I think TNT was the drama network :lol:

fireman03

02/04/2006, 09:17 PM

just wanted to chime in for doctor. i am the one who you guys are talking about the auction for $360 and by all means these were not all the the zoos that i recieved. my husband bid on these for valentines day instead of buying roses that die in 2wks. included were daytrippers, galexy blues, purple skirted navys, eagle eyey, safecrackers, privliged pinks, toxic greens and red eyed demons, wood polyps, and montipora. I thought this was an excellant gift and i am very please with the shipment. I will buy from this guy again. and as far as the colors the safe crackers, toxic greens and red eyed demons are very neonish. i will update my photo gallery once everything is acclimented. untill you buy from him there is no need to get hysterically upset and bitter.

michelle

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 09:17 PM

I became angry when my ethics were slandered... not before... I have never changed my positions on the matters of listing or selling on Ebay I sell on Ebay to support my very expensive hobby.. I did not come here, I have been here.. I simply have not chosen to post until this... I have, in believing that I had a chance of clarifying some of the empty and and unfounded claims against me responded to explain my position. I choose to continue to respond because much of the RC population represents the peer group of the hobby I enjoy so much. Agreeing to disagree is acceptable and prudent in this matter, insulting me is not.

Summary:

* I do not appreciate having my ethics slandered
* I love reefkeeping
* Reefkeeping is expensive for all but even more so in rural areas
* I love macro photography
* I am narcisistic enough to want to have my zoas recognized
* I sell some common and some rare zoas on EBAY
* I promote honestly EVERY item I sell... Promote and market
* To sell Rare items I must have genetic stock, I PAY for this
* I strive to please my clients because it is good business practice
* I think that ZOAID and RC are very important parts of this hobby

That summarizes most everything that I have to say... What part of this do you find so disagreeable?

Anyway.. PEACE You cannot hate me I do not know you. If I saw you at a frag trade we would be friends and I would end up going home with some of your stock man... cmon do you have anything you wanna trade? I have some great stuff I just do not sell LOL.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 09:26 PM

Thank You Michelle :)

So glad to hear that you loved the frags :) I am never sure what bonuses to send a client... WOW those Priviledge Pinks really SAY POP dont they? You guys are great and honorable.

Chris

CoralNutz

02/04/2006, 10:02 PM

Michelle,

The only one I have seen get "hysterically upset and bitter" is the Doc.

Doc,

When you say something like "Agreeing to disagree is acceptable and prudent in this matter..." and then continue to carry on the debate listing things that we should agree on, that's not really Agreeing to disagree....

I think the one thing you left off of the list. You used a website to promote your corals and gave the impression that your corals were somehow "Super Zoos" because of the fact that they are listed on this site. When in reality any zoas at all can be listed there and anybody can name them whatever they want. So in reality, having your zoas on there doens't make them any more special then the "wood polyps" you sent out as extras... You have now said that you didn't understand that the site worked that way and that you thought that your zoas were picked to go on there and therefore "Super Zoas". Had you came out and said that from the get go, that you just didn't understand how it worked and you realized now that having zoas on zoaid does not make your zoas any more special and certianly doens't put them into a "super zoo" status. But you didn't, you came on talking about you were glad you did it and you were wanting to "create a demand" for them defending what you had done. That's the one key thing that people disagree with you about, not selling corals for lots of money. If you don't find what you put in big red letters on your auction to be misleading, fine, we will have to disagree with that. I do stand behind my earlier statments. I think actions like those are unethical and decieving. Others agree with me, some do not. Like it or not, we are entitled to our opinions. As far as people getting upset, nobody said they hated you, nobody even said you were a bad guy. Hopefully we can put this to rest, but I will never change my mind, I just think the add was misleading, and I stand by every word I have said. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it is what it is...

Reef Junkie

02/04/2006, 10:39 PM

I'll give him an B+ for sticking up for himself. Most people give up after a couple of posts.
Anyway, this thread is resolved really.

Chris, if you're really interested in learning more about this hobby and specifiaclly zoas, spend some time on the board here and post a bit. We really don't bite and you'll soon find you can make some decent relationships here. Plus, when you sell on Ebay, no one here would dare blast you if you have a good standing. Unless you did something illegal or just downright foul.

Again, welcome to the boards (same to you Fireman03);)

Stick around long enough and you'll soon find that's it's a lot easier and cheaper getting "super zoas" on this forum.

God knows I'll be trading with at least a dozen people here in the springtime.

Cheers,
Bill

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/04/2006, 10:45 PM

Bill,
I really appreciate that :) I may just do that... In my online gaming I have found that some of my best friends were initially people that I had flame fests with.

Thank you for the invite

RevHtree

02/04/2006, 10:54 PM

In closing I must restate my opinion. Doc - I first stated that I thought what you was doing was fine without the use of Zoaid.com.

Now I think you did no wrong at all. Period. And yes I am a Pastor.

Unethical to me would be lying about your stock. Your auctions are legit and people are happy with what they buy. Just because people do not think it is right, does not make it Gospel. (Pun Intended ;) )

Guess what everybody, I am an Ordained Minister and I sell on Ebay. My auctions start at .99 as well. I think that as long as your honest, and your not trying to lie to get someone to bid then it is A OK. I guess you wouldnt have a 100% Positive feedback if you were unethical.

Sure I am going to get blasted probably, but this is my opinion. As a pastor sometimes you take alot of stuff, and God helps you. It sure does feel good to speak my mind here at RC though.

Blessings!

PS. Good work on your site so far Coral Nutz...Just had to throw that in. Nice Zoas!

cowcio

02/04/2006, 11:00 PM

AMEN Rev! :bum:

I think that this was a really silly argument. Keep doing what you're doing Doc.

Reef Junkie

02/04/2006, 11:07 PM

Rev, you have a lot of nerve posting that. You don't even know the secret handshake here yet!
:lol: just teasing.

I think it's time for us all to bury the hatchet and chalk this up to a learning experience.
I can see both the groups and Chris's point of view. I hope to see a day where we laugh about an insane amount of money Chris got for his zoas. Remember, we only represent a small fraction of people that are in this hobby. Not everyone can be "in the know"

Plus, who has time to show everyone the secret handshake?

RevHtree

02/04/2006, 11:25 PM

Rev, you have a lot of nerve posting that. You don't even know the secret handshake here yet!

HEHE...Ya! I was worried about it. I was wondering if the guy on the left or the guy on the right shoulder was the one that had me post that. Now I know it was the Zoa guy!

Thanks for not taking it that seriously, it's just an opinion. I hope when I am preaching in the morning I don't start comparing things to the reef.....LOL! Kidding! ;)

RevHtree

02/04/2006, 11:28 PM

BTW I have a meeting with the council about adding a 300g to the front hall for the sake of givning "the kids" something to look at. Ok I really don't, but it's an idea!

I can see it now as we pass the plate, please give your best to stock the reef, you know those ebay zoas arent cheap! Kidding again.

Reef Junkie

02/04/2006, 11:37 PM

Man, you're just stirring the pot eh?
:lol:
It's all good Rev. Keep up the "good" work.;)

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/05/2006, 12:16 AM

How many posts do I have to have to learn the secret handshake?

fireman03

02/05/2006, 08:11 AM

Ok, my wife has chimed in and now it is my turn.

First off, how is any of this banter making Reef Central and better site? If you think that the price is too high for the coral or you think that they are not rare, then dont buy them. I didnt buy the coral because I thought they were rare nor did I buy them because I thought they were a good value. I bought them because I liked them, it's as simple as that. I found early on in this hobby that everything seems to be grossly overpriced. I buy what I like and what I want. If I want something that is expensive, then I will pay for it. I wanted these corals and I bought them.

In no way was this a deceptive transaction. The coral's pics were listed and look the same in my acquirium as they did in the photos. I am very please about my purchase and look forward to buying from Doctor again.

I love Reef Central and hate to see post like this bring it down. There is absolutely nothing informative in this post. The flaming I saw makes this look like some "kiddy" website. Lets act like good hobbyist and vowel to only respond if we have something to contribute other than trash talk.

Thanks,

Fireman03

CoralNutz

02/05/2006, 10:51 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6670134#post6670134 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fireman03
Ok, my wife has chimed in and now it is my turn.

First off, how is any of this banter making Reef Central and better site? If you think that the price is too high for the coral or you think that they are not rare, then dont buy them. I didnt buy the coral because I thought they were rare nor did I buy them because I thought they were a good value. I bought them because I liked them, it's as simple as that. I found early on in this hobby that everything seems to be grossly overpriced. I buy what I like and what I want. If I want something that is expensive, then I will pay for it. I wanted these corals and I bought them.

In no way was this a deceptive transaction. The coral's pics were listed and look the same in my acquirium as they did in the photos. I am very please about my purchase and look forward to buying from Doctor again.

I love Reef Central and hate to see post like this bring it down. There is absolutely nothing informative in this post. The flaming I saw makes this look like some "kiddy" website. Lets act like good hobbyist and vowel to only respond if we have something to contribute other than trash talk.

Thanks,

Fireman03

Sorry, But YOU MISSED THE POINT ENTIRELY>>>> This thread is VERY informitive.... It's lets EVERYONE know that it is NOT OK to try to fool people into thinking that just becuase you have your zoas on there they are now SUPER zoas. Once again, for the slower people. This has NOTHING to do with paying large sums of cash for corals, nor does it have anything to do with selling corals for high prices.... IT DOES HAVE TO DO WITH ABUSING zoaid. The owner of the site has said that what went down is NOT OK. The seller has acknowledged that he didn't know how the site works. Actually thought his zoas were special super zoas cause they went on there. SO, I think to keep re hashing the point about paying lots of money for your corals, just shows that you either didn't read the thread or understand it.

As far as this thread not making reef central a better place. This is a hot topic and if it wasn't worth discussing it would have never made it to page 6. At least once a week someone starts a thread about another one of these silly, overpriced, non-rare coral auctions on eBay. Everyone I have seen in the past was posted, we all had a good chuckle and were thankfull that we knew of other ways to get real nice stuff without spending the kids college funds on eBay. I honestly thought this thread would be the same way. I figured a few people would see it, get a luagh out of it and it would move on down and off the first page into thread history. I think this didn't happen this time becuase when people seen how he used Zoaid in the way he did. (Which is the WHOLE point of this, not the price of the auctions) I think it struck a nerve. There are a lot of people in this community that really really like zoaid and think that it's important. However, when people use it as a marketing hype tool, it trashes that site and just turns it into a propaganda tool. The owner has stated that he would not like his website used in this manner. The seller has agreed not to do it in the future. If he wants to go on telling people that his common corals are ultra rare then great. That's not the point either. The piont was pretty specific. DON'T PUT NAME ZOAS AND PUT THEM ON ZOAID, AND THEN REFERENCE THAT IN YOUR EBAY AUCTIONS... Pretty simple... That's the point. So if your not able to understand that, you probably never willl.... But I think if people didn't keep bringing up the point about, "Well if you don't want to pay that much for his corals don't buy them" becuase that's what sidetracks it and drags it out. I guess everyone has made their point, some agree some disagree, that's fine... But please quit twisting this back to how much people spend on thier corals.....

rhoodhouse

02/05/2006, 11:11 AM

i have been listening to my husband for awhile talking about this thread. so i decided to pull it up and take a look. i have found some things very desturbing. though the wording may not be perfect on docs listing, ask yourself if it is actually a "lie"? that is when it becomes unethical. also ask yourself if "sabotage" is unethical? unfortunately, that is what i saw. his listing was sabotaged. does two wrongs make a right?

I also have heard that corals should not cost what they have been selling for, and that if you are rich or stupid enough you will buy them. i find that insulting. i am neither rich nor stupid. my husband and i buy, sell and trade. for some us that don't live on the coasts..its hard to get some of the corals we really want. when we do find it, we want it then and we are willing to pay for it. look at the pictures, you can tell how it was taken. and you can determine on YOUR OWN if that is something you want and what you want to pay. i think you are sending out a wrong message. rc is to get advice, look at the pics. not to say who should pay for what. i have bought on ebay. and yes paid more than what it was worth. it is also my favorite piece in my tank . but if i were to listen to the comments made on these several pages i would not be enjoying my piece now!

fireman03

02/05/2006, 11:35 AM

For the record, I have never visited Zoaid nor do I plan too. The exact kind of Zoa it is makes no difference to me. What I go by is if I like it, I buy. The fact is that this post got out of hand to the point where an auction was sabotaged. Obviously, there are those out there that are passionate about zoos. I, quite frankly am not. I found something that I liked and I bought it. To say that the way it was listed (ie names and rareness) had anything to do with my decison is downright false. I never heard of any of those corals. Once again, I liked them and I bought them.

While your intentions may have been informative, we can see how things can get out of hand. That is why I asked that threads like this not be made in the first place. Reef Central is better than threads of this nature.

fireman03

CoralNutz

02/05/2006, 11:42 AM

I do think it the following statement is a LIE......

"The Galaxy Blues Zoo was just published as an official Zoa Identification at the final repository for all Zoanthid naming :) It has become a SUPER ZOO :) please go and see it at www.zoaid.com "

The "it has become a SUPER ZOO" part I think is an outright lie. Maybe unintentional becuase he is stating he didn't know how the site worked.

Furthermore, just becuase something "technically" isn't a lie doesn't mean that it's not unethical.

As far as sabotage goes. To tell you the truth, If I would have thought this thread was going to cause a ruckus I wouldn't have started it... I thought it was worth posting that someone was ABUSING a site that many here love and find very useful.

I just have ONE question for the doc... Now that you are aware that zoaid does not make your zoas any more special, doesn't make them super zoas.....

Now that you know how that site works, do you still stand behind this statement and believe it to be accurate and non-misleading. It's a simple yes or no question. Don't want any explinations, just a yes or no to whether you think this is accurate and non-misleading knowing what you know now.

"The Galaxy Blues Zoo was just published as an official Zoa Identification at the final repository for all Zoanthid naming :) It has become a SUPER ZOO :) please go and see it at www.zoaid.com "

tekknoschtev

02/05/2006, 11:52 AM

rhoodhouse, read what CoralNuts and everyone else here has said. NO ONE CARES IF YOU SPEND WHAT YOU WANT ON THE ZOANTHIDS. That is NOT what this thread is about. The fact that you determined for youself that whatever you bought was worth it is importnat - and a good thing, no one is criticizing you, or anyone else who buys corals on eBay for that.

Was his statement a lie - yes. However, based on the opposing views here, you apparently think its not.

Threads of this nature are bound to turn up from time to time. And fireman03, AGAIN, no one is attacking you for purchasing zoanthids based on appearance or his statement of them being called rare, or the fact that they were named. AGAIN, this was about the misuse of whoda's creation - which SPECIFICALLY SAYS that it is NOT to be used for a market hype.

I'm going to submit to a mod again that this thread be closed however, because its really getting no where. Most of the people think one thing, a few think another, and apparently for the most part, the people who disagree with the majority cant seem to understand that its not about the fact that he named the zoas, called them rare, has good/bad feedback, etc. Its about the misuse of ZoaID.

CoralNutz

02/05/2006, 11:58 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6671334#post6671334 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fireman03
While your intentions may have been informative, we can see how things can get out of hand. That is why I asked that threads like this not be made in the first place. Reef Central is better than threads of this nature.

fireman03

I disagree with that... this is a valid issue... If you choose not to talk about it, there are many other threads you can participate in. The topic of coral hype and price manipulation has been brought up numerous times. The topic has even had articles dedicated to it recently in ReefKeeping magazine wich was posted on the front page of this site....

I'm sorry if you think this thread is "out of hand" I disagree... Just becuase people disagree about something doesn't mean it shouldn't or can't be discussed on here. What a boring place this would be if everyone agreed on everything. I think when things degenerate is when things are brougt up and people automatically think it's because someone "hates" them. It's a hot topic. I'm sorry if I hurt his feelings. If RC wishes that no more ebay auctions are even mentioned at all, that's their call.

I guess this is my last post on this cause it's just beating a dead horse. I do not think what he did or does in his auctions is very good for the hobby in general.... I don't hate the guy, don't even know him... I see that some have asked the doc to stay around and continue to post here. I cant control who/what gets' posted here but I personally think that if he is going to keep up with the same "marketing" toools that he's been using, he's not going to find many friends around here. I think this site is great for hobbyist, but not the place for zoanthid profiteers/vendors.

That's JMO... you can agree or disagree with it all you want, doesn't matter. My point has been made, if you can't see what the point is and want to keep bringing it back to how much poeple buy/sell corals for that's your problem.

Well happy reefin... Hope all your tanks do WONDERFULL and let the polyps be plentifull...

RevHtree

02/05/2006, 12:31 PM

I think there is no reason to close this thread. The debate is healthy IMO. Let the mods decide when it's too far that's their job.
Both sides IMO make good points, and it is very interesting.

Thanks.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/05/2006, 12:34 PM

The answer to the question CORAL nuts is simple...

I IN NO WAY LIED absolutely did NOT LIE! It seems coral nuts .. the starter of the thread originally is the one with continued challenges... I did NOT abuse ZOAID! That is total crap. I had a zoo or two added to ZOAID... I felt accepted by my peers in that action... I had had friends write me to say they had a zoo posted there... I did not know that the elite RC community did not respect ZOAID as a repository of ZOO naming. I still think EVERY ZOO there is a super ZOO and I want every one of them... . I was excited about it, I posted a link to show it off... The one (or his alter ego)who supposedlly accepted it wishes that I do not link to him as if I did something wrong... I did not. It is HIS site he has that right and I respect that.... I believe that he responded in a knee jerk reaction to MOB mentality but again it is his site.... I have never received any coorespondance from him indicating that I wronged him in any way... A poster using his name requested that and I complied.

Coral NUTS what is it that you have done in either real life or here that makes you the guardian of all that is pure? What is your great accomplishment? You talk like a some somebody but I see nothing to indicate that? People like you are usually low level management somewhere exercising authority over 16 yo. fry boys... Am I way off base?

tekknoschtev

02/05/2006, 12:57 PM

doc - IN THE FAQ, IT SAYS THAT IT IS NOT INTENDED AS A MARKETING HYPE!

CoralNutz

02/05/2006, 12:59 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6671786#post6671786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776
Coral NUTS what is it that you have done in either real life or here that makes you the guardian of all that is pure? What is your great accomplishment? You talk like a some somebody but I see nothing to indicate that? People like you are usually low level management somewhere exercising authority over 16 yo. fry boys... Am I way off base?

You see... this is where the threads go south.. when people get upset, and instead of agreeing to disagree and moving on they lower themselves to personall attacks....

And too be honest with you, YOU ARE WAY OFF..... :lol: I am not even up to "low level management" geez... hopefully someday i can get their.... Truth be told the guys that were fry guys 4 years ago and are now done with college are the ones telling me what to do... But really this doesn't change my opinion on the matter. And just because I haven't reached the almighty level of paramedic doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion around here... There are a lot of people that are lower than lower management around here... Anyway aren't paramedics like the "fry guys" of the medical world? :lol:

Oh yeah... and here's a good article for you to read doc... it's linked in the FAQ's on zoaid right under the part about the site NOT being for marketing hype.....

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/ac/index.php

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/05/2006, 01:15 PM

If you have noticed... it is when my character is attacked that I become less than friendly...

ie: Challenging my ethics
Saying I am a lier
Saying my momma wears combat boots
Saying my sister is so fat that when she...
Accusing my childeren of being crosseyed

ect. ect.

I apoligize for the career hack... BUT I am not a lier, nor unethical, nor any of the other inflamatory descriptives that you have utilized. DO you apoligize for ANYTHING? you have been slanderous in print, on a national website.. do you follow the definitions of slander, liable and deprivation of income? You have maligned my character. I have been wronged directly by you... Your statements are the ones that are untrue.

I love the debate or I would have left it for you alone long ago... Debate should not attack ones character (except in presidential debates)

TEK I never read the FAQ. I am unsure but i think that that was added to quell this entire problem but I am unsure

tekknoschtev

02/05/2006, 01:21 PM

That has been there - along with the link to the reefkeeping article on market hype, since very near the beginning of the website(I believe), in hopes that it would prevent issues such as this from arising. You can go on believing what you want, because I personally cannot prove without a doubt that it was there before hand.

a_reefer_too

02/05/2006, 01:30 PM

I think this site is great for hobbyist, but not the place for zoanthid profiteers/vendors.

Where would this site be with out all Vendor Sponsors.

I have for the last hour read every post on this thread. There are
valid points on both sides. (By counting the different posters on this thread it is just minority that veiw someone did something wrong.) Having views that differ is a good thing.

The only reason I got on this thread is the amount of veiws that It had, over 1900 WOW!!!!!!! Do I see free advertising or A way of getting ones site or sites noticed? (bet if you look at the hit numbers for those sites there up 65% or more in the last 24 hours ZOAID.com , EBAY auctions: Keepersofthereef website.) Looks to me this was a win win situation for everybody. People got there corals and there site reconized.

Better stop now before I get bashed Too (LOL)

CoralNutz

02/05/2006, 02:15 PM

Doc :lol: your delusional... Do you even know what slander or liable is? In order for it to be either, you have to PROVE that what I said was not true.... Since EVERYTHING stated in this thread is only an opinion and not a provable fact, there can be no liable or slander. Unless you can PROVE that your corals are indeed "Super Zoos" or even "RARE" for that matter, dont' think you have much of a case.... and if you want to accuse me of either the burden of PROOF is on your side....

I guess I'll take the word LIE off the table for you. Technically if your silly enough to believe your zoos truely are "Super Zoos" because they are listed on zoaid, then I guess technically, while it's still misleading it wouldn't be a LIE if YOU really believed what your saying.

RevHtree

02/05/2006, 02:54 PM

Ok it's time that you Coralnutz and you Doc do a thermos trade of your most precious zoas, and agree to disagree. You both are good people and you both dont seem like the type to start throwing crap.

Can there be a resolution?

BTW it is now getting to the closed part....;)

Come on guys lay it down. How bout it?

whodah

02/05/2006, 03:18 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6672049#post6672049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776

TEK I never read the FAQ. I am unsure but i think that that was added to quell this entire problem but I am unsure

hello!

[side note]
just a quick note: that FAQ was in place since near day 1 (if not day 1 itself). as mater of fact, it *was* the homepage for a while before it got it's eye candy look. LOL

i actually have the 'old look' here still:
http://www.zoaid.com/index2.php

the FAQ on the recently revamped site had a couple verbage changes about a month or two ago, but no content change.
[/side note]

hopefully this doesn't side track onto the FAQ, but just wanted to answer that for ya! :D

rhoodhouse

02/05/2006, 03:26 PM

sabotage- yes!
this thread, which was going to get attention, hence the name "wounder how high this will go" was all negative at the beginning. in turn the sabotage came into play when you go directly to the auction site (wether you or someone else) called him sleezy and questioned his marketing to discredit him. that may not been what you had intended, but that is what happened. and still hear nothing unethical about that. why?

wife of rodney

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/05/2006, 05:36 PM

Hey coral nutz... Im all with the great REVs idea

I offer peace... You do have a right to your beliefs... Just dont seem so aggressive... PLEASE.... Do not attack my character...PLEASE....

Lets trade sisters and be done with this... wait did the REV say Frags? ok

I have enjoyed the debate and hearing your side... send your address to doctor64776@yahoo.com ... Give me your email when you do and I'll send you mine.. we will do the thermos thing itll be a blast and everyone here will get a kick out of it...

Chris

coralfarm123

02/05/2006, 05:36 PM

I agree rhoodhouse, I am surprise this thread is still open or has not been moved to the Vendor Forum because I thought it was against the rules to purposely drag someone's name through the mud for any reason. Now this has been going on for days.

Yes, common sense says he should have gotten permission before linking to the site first and has admitted that he should have. That issue should have been left between Doctor and Whodah. There is no problem if anyone wants to contact whodah and point the abuse out, but it is unethical and wrong to bring this issue to a public forum to create a mob mentality. I don't blame Doctor for being extremely upset. The intent, deliberate or not, is to bash and trash talk against something you disagree with. You could have easily made the same point about the underlying issue without even mentioning his name. Yes I disagree with what he did, but I also think it was wrong to try to start a bash session.

Is there a reason to keep this thing even going any longer?

Come on guys kiss and make up already:)

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/05/2006, 05:46 PM

For what it is worth... "A reefer too" was soo right... I couldnt buy publicity like this

My stats for february...

Date Page Views
1 16.50% (476)
2 22.91% (661)
3 24.16% (697)
4 28.01% (808)
5 8.391% (242)

Jovreefer

02/05/2006, 07:45 PM

Ok... I'm gonna make a quick chime in again :) Like many others have said ... we dont in no way condone you for selling on e-bay or making alot of money off your zoa's, congrats on your other auction that went for $300+. ( I myself have also sold PPE's for tons of money, I paid for over a semester of college with the sales...and I got the colony for free 5 years ago!)

What we had problems with was the way you worded the comments about zoaid... because of your wording there has been some contriversey over Zoaid and if its good or bad and all about a marketing hype.

The statment about "super zoa" and "reposatory for RARE zoa's" is the problem. its not for RARE zoa's... its for all zoa's.

I personally know there is another VERY large E-bay coral seller with zoa's on zoaid, I have never seen them mention zoaid on their add...they use the words RARE and GOTTA HAVE AMAZING COLOR, but never twisted zoaid into their add.

That being said... I commend you for righting your wrong & agreeing not to include zoaid in your ads again. Like you said...the first one sold for a TON of money without the use of zoaid.

Oh...and one more thing...just a personal thing...ALL my zoa's have flash and they are VERY colorful and awsome... Just to show you that your statments that zoa's are not that pretty without 20k actinics is completly not true...

Jovreefer

02/05/2006, 07:50 PM

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/jovreefer/blueflash.jpg (http://photobucket.com)

MY blues...WITH FLASH! See they do exsist

jerrymlr1

02/05/2006, 08:20 PM

Sweet..............................

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/05/2006, 09:26 PM

Your Zoa are absolutely vivid... very nice man

Soo completely right... But even the pretty ones ... I believe are highlighted and have more vivid color under under acintics... that is why, dare I say most reefers use them

Reef Junkie

02/06/2006, 07:39 AM

I've found that my zoas all look better with flash.
The ones without flash look washed out and unreal.

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 09:49 AM

My .02 cents on this.

Doc, take a chill pill. First off I do think it's a bit ironic that you posted your pic's on Zoaid the day BEFORE you posted your Ebay auction and then put in the link. Then you come on here to defend yourself and say you didn't understand how zoaid worked. :rolleyes:

Also you have hyped up your zoa's as super rare in the attempt to creat something that they are not, just to make a profit. THAT my friend is the cruxt of the matter. The majority of zoa's you are selling are common zoa's that a lot of people have. Granted you are not twisting peoples arms and making them bump up the auction price, it's all done with the wording and marketing hype.

Unfortunatly, that has become the "norm" for a lot of people and so the prices of corals are going thru the roof for no reason. Like I posted in an earlier post, I've been to a few well know wholesalers and their tubs are full of zoa's, even the ones you have that are "rare". They all sell for the same price, no matter the color. It's the LFs and people like you who are "creating" a false market and trying to get people to beleive that these are indeed rare corals. If they were so rare, then they would be left in the ocean.

As for colors, my zoa's look stunning under 10K XM MH lights. Your pic's looked washed out with atinic and don't look like actual colors to me. To some newbie or unsuspecting potential buyer, they may look good.

Also, if your corals are so rare as you have stated, then why have people in my local club just given me frags of these so called rare corals that you have. :rolleyes: It's putting the moniker of LE or rare on these corals that is unethical. Again, if they were that rare, then they would still be in the ocean and we wouldn't have them.

This is all JMO. ;)

Some eye candy. All pic's are taken under 10K Xm 175W MH with a cheap camera. :D

Rare metallic reds. ;)
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/39757metallic_reds_1.jpg

Rare bambam oranges I got for free. ;)
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/39757zoo2_1.jpg

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 09:50 AM

Rare mix of zoas.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/39757zoo3_1.jpg

Rare pinks I got in a thermos trade. ;)
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/39757zoo4_1.jpg

More pic's are in my gallery and in my thread of my 45G tank. ;)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=705611

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 10:06 AM

Very very nice pics man ...

I have already answered all of your questions in numerous posts... MOST of EVERYTHING on EBAY IS RARE... I see my zoos as rare because there are limiteed quantities of them.... show me a pic of your Galaxy blues? just when this debate began did a search and 55 of 433 items for live coral were RARE... The debate is over.. actually pretty dead even all points are made... :) <---- smiley face indicating peace

Hey Coral NUTS... I never did get your address? so I guess we are not doing the whole peace dance? Like the REV said? I thought it would be fun

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 10:17 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6677725#post6677725 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776
Very very nice pics man ...

MOST of EVERYTHING on EBAY IS RARE... I see my zoos as rare because there are limiteed quantities of them.... show me a pic of your Galaxy blues? just when this debate began did a search and 55 of 433 items for live coral were RARE... The debate is over.. actually pretty dead even all points are made... :) <---- smiley face indicating peace

LOL. Sorry Doc, but as I stated earlier, THAT is the problem with everything. Everyone want's to put a moniker of "rare" or "LE" on their corals. IF they really were THAT rare, WE, meaning you and I , would not have them.

It's all just a marketing hype, there are no "RARE" corals in any of our tanks. I agree that there may be some in limited quanity because they have not been imported as of yet. But once the wholesalers find out that people want them, then they will send their collectors out to find them and import them.

So to say that you have a "rare" coral in you tank is a misnomer. If it really is Rare, I can garentuee their would be athorities knocking on your door. ;)

RevHtree

02/06/2006, 10:38 AM

Chevy they may not be rare to you, but may be to others. There are places in this country that it is impossible to get nice zoas except by the net. If there is no demand then they are not rare. Where there is a demand they may very well be VERY RARE.. ;)

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 10:44 AM

Revhtree,
That dosen't make them rare, just harder to obtain. ;) But everyone seems to want their corals to be "rare". :rolleyes:

I guess it all depends on your perspective of rare. As I said, some of these corals that he's calling rare, I've seen at the wholesalers as well as the LFS. Some I have gotten easily in thermos trades which cost no more than 7.95 for shipping USPS priorty mail in a flat rate box. ;)

Well it looks like the winning bidder got the frags for 3 bucks a poylop plus 50 bucks shipping. Not too bad.

CoralNutz

02/06/2006, 11:28 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6677725#post6677725 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776
Very very nice pics man ...

I have already answered all of your questions in numerous posts... MOST of EVERYTHING on EBAY IS RARE... I see my zoos as rare because there are limiteed quantities of them.... show me a pic of your Galaxy blues? just when this debate began did a search and 55 of 433 items for live coral were RARE... The debate is over.. actually pretty dead even all points are made... :) <---- smiley face indicating peace

Hey Coral NUTS... I never did get your address? so I guess we are not doing the whole peace dance? Like the REV said? I thought it would be fun

Well let me just say this.. I think the debate is done. I don't agree with your "marketing" tactics.... We've been through this time and time on this thread.

To be honest if had thought that this thread was going to get ANY attention other than a few chuckles yet another crazy ebay auction I wouldn't have posted. I and I will tell you that I will NEVER post about someone's ebay auction in the future. While I don't agree that what I did was slander, liable or even close to unethical for pointing it out, I have seen that it can cauase issues. I can certainly understand your point about feeling as if I was attacking your personally. If I would have thought you posted or even looked around here I wouldn't have done it. I've learned my lesson on that. While I do NOT appologize that I started this thread and pointed it out. I am sorry that it got to this level. So just like you DOC... I don't feel I did anything wrong, but I won't do it again.

As far as trading corals with you. I wouldn't trade with ANYONE that I thought was going to try to get rich selling them on ebay... Plus if those were your super zoas I don't think I'm that impressed....

So, I am all for peace and blah blah... But I still the way I do, just as you do.. Hopefully this thread won't turn into a whose got the sweetest zoas thread..... CAUSE I'LL WIN :lol: (that was just a joke, even though I think it's true)

So happy Monday to you all... Good luck on your auctions in the future DOC, sorry if I put a damper on this one I didn't think it would have any effect as the people that usually hang out here are not silly enough to fall for eBay adds like yours. I plan to keep on educating people about these so called RARE ebay corals. I just won't mention anyone by name.

smp

02/06/2006, 11:33 AM

Big welcome to all the newbies and lurkers that this thread has brought out.

Now you know that the REAL place to look at the best zoanthids is right here at RC. Please take a look around the Zoanthid forum for some KILLER examples of fine looking zoas!
(notice that I didn't say rare ;) )

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 11:43 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6678213#post6678213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smp
Big welcome to all the newbies and lurkers that this thread has brought out.

Now you know that the REAL place to look at the best zoanthids is right here at RC. Please take a look around the Zoanthid forum for some KILLER examples of fine looking zoas!
(notice that I didn't say rare ;) )

;)

Coralnutz,
I don't think you did anything wrong by bringing this subject up. YES it is a tough topic to discuss sometimes. All we, you and I, are trying to do is educate others on some of the practices of others.

At least you did accomplish one thing with your thread, you've made it know that there are/were people out there using zoaid as a way of promoting their sales which is NOT what the site was intended for. ;)

Maybe in the future, things will be differrent and we wont have everyone trying to claim their corals as "rare". :D

Main Entry: 1rare
Pronunciation: 'rar, 'rer
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): rarÂ·er; rarÂ·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin rarus
1 : marked by wide separation of component particles : THIN <rare air>
2 a : marked by unusual quality, merit, or appeal : DISTINCTIVE b : superlative or extreme of its kind
3 : seldom occurring or found : UNCOMMON
synonym see CHOICE, INFREQUENT

Maybe they should be called Choice instead.

smp

02/06/2006, 12:18 PM

As a side note, I'm glad this thread wasn't locked.
Locked threads almost suck as bad as flatworms.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 01:06 PM

I am sorry that you feel that way Nutz ... :( that was my very best effort to Peace out with you... OK I can accept nuetral...
I have not seen many of your full flash zoos coral Nutz? show them to us...

I am going to post of few of mine that I just know will be called crap because thats what you do here coral nutz.. tear people down... hey show me yours now LOL Ive shown you mine... I usually do not take flash pictures because these corals do not live in a world of flash they they live in a world that filters out many of the waves of light leaving mostly the BLUEs at the lower end of the spectrum and this is what makes colors seem so surreal when we dive... Acintic lighting and high Kelvin temps do thier very best to simulate that environment...

DAYTRIPPERS with full power forced flash

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/doctor64776/DaytripperswithFlash.jpg

GALAXY BLUES with full power forced flash

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/doctor64776/Galaxywithflash.jpg

Armaggedon with full pwer forced flash

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/doctor64776/ArmaggedonwithFlash.jpg

TOXIC GREENS with full power forced flash

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/doctor64776/ToxicGreenwithflash.jpg

SAFECRACKERS with full power forced flash

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/doctor64776/SafeCrackerwithFlash.jpg

FIRE and ICE with full power forced flash

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/doctor64776/FireandIcewithFlash.jpg

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 01:09 PM

Just to the immediate left of the SAFECRACKERS you can see the BLUE KISS that recently sold on EBAY.... Immediately behind the SAFECARACKERS you can see the Mean Greens

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 01:24 PM

I REALLY REALLY Like Blown Chevies stuff alot!!! Those are phenom :)

mummra100769

02/06/2006, 01:25 PM

that is not fire and ice.

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 01:36 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6678899#post6678899 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776
I REALLY REALLY Like Blown Chevies stuff alot!!! Those are phenom :)

wait till I get a better camara to take pic's that show the color better. ;) I've got afriend who has a good camara w/ macro lens that's going to come over and take some pic's for me. ;)

Most all of them were gotten thru thermos trades or from other RC member for less than 30 bucks for at least 50 poylops. ;) A few did come from the LFS but I stll only paid 30 bucks for a large rock. One being my other rock of BamBam Oranges.

I also have some fire & Ice that I got from a RC member that I traded some shrooms for because they were loosing color in his dimly lit tank. He got them from the LFS for about 30 bucks for a big rock. ;)

Jovreefer

02/06/2006, 01:47 PM

The armaggedon looks great with flash :) glad to see the pics on Zoaid are a true representation of color.

I hate to tell you though...the last one is NOT fire and ice... NOT EVEN CLOSE! I dont think those are safe crackers either...the center ring is no wear near large enough. (I've said this in another thread though, seems this morph is getting around as safecrackers alot...IMO they look nicer to me... more red, less blueish black = prettier to me)

LOL...blue? ok...I'm gonna stop here before I **** someone else off.

surfnvb7

02/06/2006, 01:52 PM

:lol: :rolleyes:

this is STILL going on?? man...most of the original purposes of this thread has gotten blown way out of proportion and points being misconstrued. i'd say we are waaaaaaaaay off topic here than what was originally intended.

doctor, sell what you want on ebay, for however much you want...i think most people (and me) were just upset about the use of ZoaID which is a seperate topic meant for whodah really.

doc..with all due respect, IMO those don't look all that rare... but, they may in fact look VERY rare for someone who lives an hour or two from the nearest LFS or club. i like the ones in the first pic, they are pretty neat. think you can get a good macro shot of a single polyp? just curious...

alot of people do use RARE or LE on ebay just to get their stuff sold for big bucks, when in fact it is not RARE or LE. everyone has a definition of RARE or LE, depending on the area. so whatever...just dont expect EVERYONE to like it...

its so hard to say a pic of a zoa that looks like XYZ, is in fact XYZ under totally different lighting conditions, different tanks, and different cameras. and in alot of cases in our zoanthid forum, many many people say a zoanthid looks like XYZ from zoaID, but 10 people say it is, or could be....than 10 other people say its not. who's right? i dunno....does it really matter what its name is? (to some people yes, b/c they beleive its worth more..so they can resell or justify their insane spending problem)

and this is to everyone...on the "blue zoa" comment. does anyone remember when a guy tried to sell his zoas in the selling forum, marked "rare blue zoas", and took pics under 20k halides + actinic VHO's. everyone trashed the guy cuz he said his zoas were blue, when in fact the entire pic was blue.......and demanded he took a pic with flash under 10k's or at least no actinics. and of course they were in fact brown.......but he defended himself saying all of his corals are indeed blue, and none of them (or ANY in anyones tanks, or in the ocean), would look blue without actinic or 20k supplementation....

so, does actinic and 20k bulbs in fact make a brown zoa a rare blue zoa?? to YOUR eyes maybe....but thats not fooling mother nature. :lol:

CoralNutz

02/06/2006, 01:52 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6678786#post6678786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776
I am going to post of few of mine that I just know will be called crap because thats what you do here coral nutz.. tear people down...

See, how can I "make peace" with someone that just can't let it go? I think if you take a look at the stuff I post around here. I would have to say that more than 50% of them are posts trying to help newbies out and answer other questions people have. I try to be as productive as I can in this comunity and I don't feel I "tear people down" I guess I would call it "telling it like it is". I don't think I have every called your Zoas "crap" once. I said they are common, not rare, and not that impressive to me...

If you really want to find some of my zoas start looking around. I have posted just about all of them on here... I don't feel the need to break out my camera just to prove to you that I have some nice zoas... I think the people that count around here know that I got the good stuff, lol. They also know that while not everyone of my posts or threads may be worded the best they could be, but they do know that my intentions are good and I would like to help the hobby along anyway I can.

If you really want to see some of my zoas you can go look at www.coralnutz.com or you can look at my photobucket account

http://photobucket.com/albums/a61/coralnutz/

Some are with flash some are without. But even my without the flash pics they are TRUE representations with an EVEN balance of lighting. All my tanks have a 50/50 mix of 10K URI aquasun VHO's and Super actinics... Notice I said EVEN mix... Not 20K + 440 Watts of actinics on top of that. I think it's amusing that you talk about the way the corals look in the wild. Have you ever even been diving on a real reef? The colors are not as you descripe them. The light is actuall a LOT more white/yellow than it is in most of our tanks. And it especially doens't look like 20K + actinics, lol.....

To each their own on their lighting choices... I don't think I ever attacked you about your lighting, while I think it makes the corals look distorted and don't show the TRUE colors, your auctions do indeed indicate the lighting you use.

So if you really want to make peace, great... Doesn't mean we have to trade frags... But what it does mean is that you need to quit with the jabs like the following

"I am going to post of few of mine that I just know will be called crap because thats what you do here coral nutz.. tear people down..."

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 02:01 PM

I was sold them as Fire and Ice? BUMMER oh well I like them see we need ZOAID :) the SAFECRACKERS ARE the real thing I got them from Chris Little on Frags . org he got them directly from the guy who originated the name.. Chris would defend himself far better than I. Perhaps you should tell him they are not real? I also have some awesome closeups! that look almost as good as the famous pic you all recognize but those pics are without flash... as was the original masters pic under acintics without flash. I didnt think you would like my stuff being masters and all... well I love your stuff.... Guess I should just go drain all my tanks out huh?

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 02:10 PM

Your point is taken coral nutz

Well put and agreed surf

Its shame that in 2 yrs of collecting and blowing outrageous amounts of money that EVERYTHING I have is common :( I really do not understand this? One would think that even with the shotgun effect of throwing money everywhere I would have stumbled upon something not termed as "Common" OK help me show me something taken with a flash that is not common... and even better tell me how one goes about obtaining it? I will present this as a challenge to all...

I want something uncommon... show me a SUPER ZOO?

tomenugen

02/06/2006, 02:15 PM

Doc,
Not to worry. Those zoos you have are amazing. You do not need to prove to anyone here on RC with the zoos that you have.
I would have thought this post would have ended by now.
Like my other post mention, RARE or LE, it all depends on the buyer and seller.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 02:15 PM

Jeremy,

I checked your site and I think your peices look very nice.... rich colors. I especially liked your emerald green colored ones..

Peace

Thank you Tom I appreciate that :)

CoralNutz

02/06/2006, 02:37 PM

Maybe the reason in your two years of blowing money, all you did was propagate the myth that these zoas are "RARE".... Maybe it's not that just your zoas are not rare, but NONE of them are that rare.

I think, hard to come by doesn't equal rare.... Especially true with ANY of the corals that people try so hard to get... if they were truely RARE,, nobody would know about them... the reason everyone wants safecrackers is because they ARENT rare and they see them everywhere. PPE's are they rare? NOT in my book.... I bet 80% - 90% of the hardcore collectors that hang out here have them. See here I go again doc, not tearing people down, but trying to educate people that it's a BIG MYTH that these zoas are rare.

These people that are buying RARE corals are either uninformed about where to get them at a fraction of the price or even a trade. If your really serious about becoming the master zoa collector here's my advice.... Lose the word RARE for zoas, save that term for the professionals that actually spend day after day, year after year working in the ocean. It's just like last year with the Lord craze... Not one of those INDO lords were rare in the least bit, yet people lined up and begged to pay $50/polyp in hopes that they would be able to frag it in a few months and get rich. Just like why you paid $400 for a rock with 25 safecrackers, you thought you could make a profit. If you had really just wanted to have them for having them, you wouldn't have fragged them up and sold them to the point that you are claiming you are "running out".

Please don't take this as a personal attack. I am just trying to help educate you. If your goal is to just make a quick buck and then faid away with all the other RARE coral sellers on ebay do. Or you can learn more about these beautiful creatures, get in with the crowd of serious zoa junkies and enjoy the top of the line zoas and keep your money for other things. But like I stated before, you aren't going to gain much respect around here if you want to keep up your current tactics... I am betting that even if you had something that we didn't that we actually wanted, the majority of people aren't going to trade with you becuase they know you are going to take the frag they send you, bust it in half and sell it as some really really RARE coral trying to double your money.

Please don't get me wrong about making money off of this hobby. I think that's fine. I know I have a dedicated frag setup that I would love to turn a profit on. Probably not going to happen though as I like to keep things fair and honest. But I think some things I just will NOT do to turn a buck. When I list frags for sale, I would have to admit, they usually aren't in the "budget coral" section, but I tell it like it is. Whenever I am selling I ALWAYS include a picture of my corals under regular lighting and then a group shot under a flash.

Here is an example of my last frag pack. I think it's ok to link it here because these frags are long gone.. if not, sorry mods, feel free to delete this part.... (Notice that my blues are even blue under the Flash... And I don't have to clasify my greyish zoas as "Sky Blue" becuase they are really blue and not just juiced up with actinics and 20K)

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=750216

Hopefully someday you will realize that what you do on ebay doesn't help the hobby, just propagates myths about rarity and scares people away becuase they think they can never afford the "good stuff". Until that day though I think you will continue to pay $400 for 25 polyps of safe crackers.

surfnvb7

02/06/2006, 02:50 PM

I want something uncommon... show me a SUPER ZOO?

thats the whole point doc. what is something "uncommon", or "rare", or "LE"? everyone has a different opinion on this definition.

to some people, rare or uncommon is anything they dont have. to others, its anything they haven't seen before. to some others, it could be anything that a person doesn't have in their area.

a person could post a pic of a zoa they've had in their tank, and never seen a pic of before and say its "rare" b/c they have the only colony known. but then 5 others across the country post with pics of the same thing, or a similar morph and say its been around for years...

so who is justifiably right when they say theirs is "rare" or "uncommon"? .........no one IMO, its a completely biased term that doesnt carry any weight to it, esspecially when there is a known history of people who use the term on ebay, and other marketing venues for the sole purposes of misleading people who don't use enough common sense, or themselves don't know any better.

lets ask more specific questions.....like......"i want to see all your blue zoa morphs", or...."i want to see all your zoas that have 5 or more colors in them". then leave it up to the individual looking at the picture to see if its worth putting out $X for.

an honest and informed seller, would provide pics under flash and/or 10k, as well as actinic, and not use vocabulary terms that *could* be deemed as "misleading" by others. let the buyers interpret the pictures as they see them, and pay for what they see....not what they are told.

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 02:54 PM

Very well put Coralnuts. I agree,Doc, if you've really blown that much money chasing down the "rare" zoa's, I actually feel sorry for you.

As others have said, buy them if you like them, not because of how much you "Think" you can frag them up and make off of them. That way you don't perpetuate the "rare" syndrom that has become a thorn in the side of this "HOBBY".

You too surfnvb7. ;)

If the corals are indeed rare, then why not share them with fellow reefers so that they can be propagated and that way if your colonie dies for some reason, you will have a way to get some back. Also by doing this, you can keep some of teh "rare" corals in the ocean. Or maybe one day repopulate the ocea with the "rare" corals.

As far as I know, there is only one "rare" coral. GARF had one and propagated it out among the community. When it was found out that the coral no longer was alive in the coean, they took it upon themselves to find the strain of that coral, thru DNA testing, to try and repopulate it in the ocean. I don't think any of our zoas have reached that status yet. ;)

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 03:27 PM

Firstly, all of your inputs are valid and well worded...

I sell my corals on EBAY to support my reef habit.. abit like a crack habit... when I buy something I usually frag off 1/2 and sell it to cover the cost of originally buying it... then I can buy more... With reguard to shareing and reef propagation please read the opening mission statement @ keepers of the reef as I wrote it and believe it... most all of my frags exist in my local members homes free of charge...(especially my brothers)And I have many of thiers in my tank also.

The gentleman who posted the "Rare" definition was right on target

3 : seldom occurring or found : UNCOMMON
synonym see CHOICE, INFREQUENT

The definition that Coral Nuts tries to imply is that RARE is synomonous with the word EXTINCT there are many RARE flora and fauna that do not require the presence of police and greenpeace to own and enjoy.... that is just not the case... the most coherrent definition from perspective is surfs... "they may in fact look VERY rare for someone who lives an hour or two from the nearest LFS or club"..."everyone has a definition of RARE or LE, depending on the area"

Weather you like my Galaxy blues or not... they are not in your tank...(I know, I know you dont want them there) nor are they any where that I have seen until I purchased them... so being that the term rare is realative and based upon perspective I stand by the title RARE and further grant I believe the Zoa that I see on ZOAID for the most part are rare.... I understand the cliche imposed by the use of the word RARE....

rhoodhouse

02/06/2006, 03:44 PM

Here are mine and I do think they all are Super Zoo's
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/86513a4a-med.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/86513a3a-med.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/86513aa2.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/86513aa1.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/86513a8a.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/86513zoo8.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/86513zoo6.jpg

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 03:44 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6679844#post6679844 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doctor64776
The gentleman who posted the "Rare" definition was right on target

3 : seldom occurring or found : UNCOMMON
synonym see CHOICE, INFREQUENT

That would be me but apperantly you read it diffeent than I. Rare as in seldom seen. The majority of your corals are not seldom seen. They are on ZoaID as a lot of people have them. That means they are not rare as they are common, by the defination above, taken from the websters dictonary. ;)

Granted you may have a coral or two that is seldom seen. If that IS the case, and you beleive them to be rare, the follow your other statement that's on your website, as well as this one and others, and propagate them out so that we may conserve the other "rare" ones still in the ocean.

surfnvb7

02/06/2006, 04:01 PM

so being that the term rare is realative and based upon perspective I stand by the title RARE and further grant I believe the Zoa that I see on ZOAID for the most part are rare.... I understand the cliche imposed by the use of the word RARE....

so are you in fact, saying that ANY zoa, posted on zoaid is in fact "rare" in your viewpoint.... thus, any zoa that has been given a name (by zoaID, or you) is in fact "rare" in your viewpoint...correct?

thus...going back to one of our original problems with how ZoaID uses names...who's the zoanthid god? or an "expert" enough to say what zoas are named (thus inducing a "rare" definition in some viewpoints)? do we have a high panel of "experts" who vote which submitted zoa pics are published, and under which name?

I believe I remember whodah saying that he would post ANY zoa pictures that are submitted to him ("rare" or not). and i remember him saying that he does not denote just b/c it has a name that it is in fact "rare".

so would it be logical to suggest that your interpretation of the purposes of ZoaID are in fact, not conducive of what the creator of ZoaID suggests the site is for? and thus, ANY zoa posted on zoaid (which according to whoda, can be ANY zoa) is in fact "rare" in your definition?? I believe THIS question is closer to the purpose that was originally intended of this thread than anything else mentioned...

"I believe the Zoa that I see on ZOAID for the most part are rare" what does that mean exactly.....for all opinions that are the same as yours you will accept? all those opinions that do not agree with yours are incorrect?

i'm not attacking you doc, but your logic seems to suggest alot of "hypocritical" or "misnomer" arguements/thinking. you say one thing, but you intend an opposite meaning in your examples that you provide. it leaves your points to be a bit confusing to understand...

lastly...I'd like to leave a quote from someone who was very well respected here on RC, for everyone here debating this to think about for a bit. "I would be very leary of anyone who calls themselves an "expert" on anything, including myself" - Dr. Ron

tomenugen

02/06/2006, 04:11 PM

Wow. It is nice to see that your name can be drag through the dirt not once but over and over again. If RC members are in disagreement over words such as "rare", they should contact Webster Dictionary. The answer to this constant nagging is simple. If you don't like what someone is selling or what you are seeing, move on. Nobody likes a snitch or a rent a cop, so just let it be. If we have some Howard Stern listeners on here, you will understand this. Doc=Howard Stern and BlownChevy and CoralNuts=FCC. I don't know any of the people bickering, but this is a public forum. Please keep your rambling to private message. BTW, nice pics Rhoodhouse, rare or not.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 04:46 PM

Rhood Hoohhaaa those pics are so beautiful! I also LOVE the acintic supplementation it really highlights the vividity of the naturally occuring colors... Kudos

My post was meant to infer what so many people have already stated in one way or another... There should be no confusion..

Rare by literal definition is:
3 : seldom occurring or found : UNCOMMON
synonym see CHOICE, INFREQUENT

Rare by the Way most of us have agreed to disagree is that it is via PERSPECTIVE... If you cant get it or have it easily then it is rare..

I still have yet to see anyone post thier own private pic of either Galaxy Blues or Daytrippers

THEREFORE/THUS/Hiterto ect. ect .... THE zoa Posted on ZOAID are in my own private and personal freedom perspective RARE and COLLECTABLE ZOA... I did originally think that the Zoa on ZOAID were chosen by the reef gods... I do know differently now but still believe them to be RARE

Azurel

02/06/2006, 04:56 PM

There can be a use for the term "rare" in the hobby to describe morphs and or corals that are seldom seen in distribution within the hobby. "Rare" doesn't have to mean that it exists minimally in the ocean and there for not collected. The name does not denote a rarity but the morph, I disagree with you Coralnuts on the fact that PPEs, PHE's for that matter are all over the hobby or 80%-90% of people here even have them, that's not to say they couldn't get them maybe but, the price or the things for a fair trade are a little higher to get them as opposed to some of the other color morphs.
"Rare" in this hobby means Limited supply or seldom seen. I think both side of the issue have taken the word to be to literal as it pertains to the hobby. Steve Tyree corals are LE for the fact that most of them are extremely hard to get or seldom seen, thus they can be considered "rare" with in the hobby, but once they get distributed and those that have them continue with the distribution and trading then they no longer are "rare". There are quite a few zoa morphs on Zoaid.com that are seldom seen on here or in the LFS, that doesn't make them "rare" in the ocean but within the hobby because of lack of distribution. I think he only threat to the use of the word "rare" is the newbies or those that are new to the hobby looking for something they think is rare or tricked into thinking something is rare. I do agree though that there is a lot of use of the word "rare" on EBay for things that are quite common with in the hobby.

Crusty Old Shellback

02/06/2006, 04:56 PM

Daytrippers hu. Is the main color pink?

If so, let me turn off my MH lights, just atinic's on, and I'll get you a pic of mine. I beleive they are the same as yours and I got them in a thermos frag swap. NOT from you.

Azurel

02/06/2006, 05:03 PM

Blown if you look at his pics they are not in atinics only lights. You can tell this by looking at the objects around the colony which is not deeply bathed in blue. So if the light of each zoa is not the same then you can't make a real comparison.

ReefDoctorMicromussas

02/06/2006, 05:24 PM

It is irratating that I respect all of the corals you have shown me... I state the emotion and feeling that they give me when I look upon them... And yet with or without Flash or acintics many continue to degrade my pieces.... Its not nice or polite i am sorry to hear my collection is so common :( I not am regularly here enough to feel I am losing something to leave... I am becoming bored and frustrated with this...... Many (NOT ALL) of you concede no where... Your ZOOS are the only ones that are nice... well thats untrue and not very nice... (The majority) OF This community is niether friendly nor welcoming... It is obvious that I am not wanted here and really the thread has continued long enough... Come to keepers of the reef ... we are a micro community in comparison to this but we are nice, helpful and kind... even the most base of sealife is beautiful to me and further more RARE... you cannot go outside and pick it from a tree it must be harvested by a little swimming boy, shipped from some far away island, survive the rigors of seasoning tanks in a port, be shipped and or flown just to make it to my tank. My input is useless here... I am an impotent guest in your world

WHODA ... I received my calendar today and it is very nice... You should all go get one and support a worthy cause. I would LOVE to have the very RARE! zoos in that calendar wow!

I am excited to have had the opportunity to meet each of you.
With that I bid you all happiness and bountiful tanks I will see you in another forum or through another RC thread but here no longer.

PEACE

CoralNutz

02/06/2006, 05:24 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6680256#post6680256 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tomenugen
Wow. It is nice to see that your name can be drag through the dirt not once but over and over again. If RC members are in disagreement over words such as "rare", they should contact Webster Dictionary. The answer to this constant nagging is simple. If you don't like what someone is selling or what you are seeing, move on. Nobody likes a snitch or a rent a cop, so just let it be. If we have some Howard Stern listeners on here, you will understand this. Doc=Howard Stern and BlownChevy and CoralNuts=FCC. I don't know any of the people bickering, but this is a public forum. Please keep your rambling to private message. BTW, nice pics Rhoodhouse, rare or not.

Tom, you and Doc must be drinking the same cool-aide... If I am the one that is like the FCC, than why is it you two want to Censor ME? I never said he couldn't do that... I pointed it out on here becuase some of us more sane people get a chuckle from time to time seeing what the chuckleheads on eBay are doing?

(Oh yeah tom... It's the 8th page and you still haven't figured out this has nothing to do with paying large sums of money for corals, maybe you want to read the threads before you post in them :lol: )

So isn't it YOU that's likw the FCC trying to tell me what I can and can't say? I never said, OMG, this guy cannot do this... I simply said hey, wonder how this one will go now that he's thrown in the misleading zoaid link....

I agree with DOC that rare is a matter or perspective... The point is that I am trying to make is that NONE of the zoas are rare. Not that somehow mine are and yours aren't.

I too will agree that this is pretty silly that it's gone on to almost the 9th page... I am sure it will go there too, cause doc can't just leave well enough alone... I am sure he will keep jabbing and prodding me even after I have pretty much conceded.... I have told you, I don't agree with your "marketing" tactics. I personally think you are NOT a good thing for the hobby.... I have also agreed that me starting this thread and pointing out the doc by name probably wasn't the best move. Do I think it was unethical to do so? Not a chance... The FCC up there might though :lol:

I agree that some of your zoas are nice. Just not what I would consider rare or anything that special... You do, that's great.

surfnvb7

02/06/2006, 05:27 PM

THEREFORE/THUS/Hiterto ect. ect .... THE zoa Posted on ZOAID are in my own private and personal freedom perspective RARE and COLLECTABLE ZOA... I did originally think that the Zoa on ZOAID were chosen by the reef gods... I do know differently now but still believe them to be RARE

nicely stated doc...i think we are finally getting somewhere...

just to clarify....one last time...you are indeed agreeing that your views of the purpose of ZoaID are in fact DIFFERENT, than what whoda said was/are intended for the site then? correct? if so, thats your own opinion, which you are entitled to so no one can blast you for that...

if so, by linking ZoaID in your auction, do you agree that your intentions of listing something as "rare" COULD (intentionally or unintentionally) therefore be misconstrued with the purpose of ZoaID, which does NOT denote something as "rare" or not?

regardless of the way you answer this...the ultimate debate resides in the court of ZoaID, and the purpose of the site seen by the creator vs. the people that have used it.........

as whoda already took care of the part in which he wanted you to withdraw the use of the ZoaID site in your auctions, which I believe you honestly would if you could after the auction started.

this was the whole point of one of the original "arguements", whether zoaID (and thus naming a zoa) in fact imposes a certain rarity on it? i would rather see whoda in fact counter these problems with actual implementations to the site (whether they be coding to prevent linking, or written disclaimers, or a change in the contruction/presentation of the site) then a continued fued with doc, in which everyone is expressing their PERSONAL opinions, and thus moving the debate in no particular direction, b/c again...it is mostly in the opinion of the reader and/or writer.

doc, people are jumping on you, b/c of the coincidental timing of you posting YOUR "rare" zoas on zoaID, and then turning around and linking them for purposes of an auction which you listed as "rare". people are upset at you, b/c this is NOT what whoda said the site is intended for. and the last thing we want to see is everyone copying your tactics (whether some say is clever marketing or dishonest marketing) to make an extra buck on our hobby, and thus causing a huge inflation of prices and "named zoanthids" becoming the next yearly CRAZE.

i say, we move on from the differences b/w docs and others opinions (colors, "rarity", lighting etc.) ...and BACK on to the more important topic, which is WHY has zoaID caused people to misuse the information (intentionally or unintionally) it has provided for us??

awcurl

02/06/2006, 08:46 PM

Hey Doctor, I sent you a PM.

Reef Junkie

02/06/2006, 11:11 PM

I just want to chime in one last time, I think.:wildone:

Here is the REAL definition of rare...

This coral was obtained around 15 years ago when collecting rock from the reef in the Carribean was still allowed. This is yet identified and absolutely beautiful coral. Eat your hearts out!:lmao:
You will not find this in stores, order now, supplies are limited.;)
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/reefphd/DSC01590.jpg

Chemguy85

02/06/2006, 11:15 PM

that is admazing looking reef junkie.
"You will not find this in stores, order now, supplies are limited."

That is great
:rollface:

mummra100769

02/07/2006, 11:39 PM

it sounds like tomenugen comes from a bb we are not allowed to speak of. being a snitch and a rat i can say that coralnutz is just looking out for his fellow reefers.

good job man and i like how your pics are not bathed in blue light. btw i have just about every one of those morphs along with the day trippers. matter of fact i have like 3 different morphs of the daytrippers.

21Reefman

02/08/2006, 02:19 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6664569#post6664569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef Junkie

This is not Ebay. Nor is this site a democracy.
Play by our rules or otherwise you will quickly find yourself on the receiving end of negative public backlash on RC.

Welcome to the boards and leave your marketing rhetoric at the door. You'll have you a$$ handed back to you if you use it here.:D

Cheers,
Bill

Wow, whata warm welcome:( Get off the high horse dude!

And to Coral nuts about the claim that most of the opinions in the thread frown on the Doc's practices: Go READ THE THREAD! It's only about 4 of you in the MINORITY that have kept up the mudslinging.

The sqeaky mouse only hears himself! Stop beating the dead horse! It was you coral nuts, who revealed the pent up anger with the cheap $20 comment.

If you don't want to attract any notoriety and distinction for your zoa's then the whole ZOAID.com is a bad idea. The whole thing is HYPE; The Resiprocity...bla,bla YOU (the site) Want to be known as the authority of zoas.
Wether they are pretty or brown, rare or common,
all the like are listed,
they are still listed and celebrated!! Which does in itself add to their collectabilty, interest, and thus VALUE , or at least what people are willing to pay.
SO BLAME WHODA AND ANYONE WHO THOUGHT IT WAS COOL TO NAME AND POST THEIR SUPER ZOA"S, FOR THE WHOLE ZOA INFLATION SCANDAL!! (whodah I love the site, keep it up. I'm being devils advocate. What if you had standards or a "RARE" classification("hard to come by" for coral (bustn')nutz))

What is to stop joe shmoe from seeing his morph of zoa on zoaid, and learning that they have a name and that they are on the internet posted amongst some of the coolest (and photoshoped) zoa's he's ever seen.
He then starts calling them the HYPED-UP name and selling them on ebay, ........ He did not post the pics to zoaid yet still ends up benefitting from it's existance. I don't think he will see how any mention of, how his zoa's were found listed on zoaid.com is wrong. Frankly niether do I! He did not post them to market them. They were already there!! By zoaid's very exsistance!!

I found the same picture of the (overpriced)zoa's I bought from some guy on zoaid,(the picture that he used to sell them to me.) The picture is SSOOOO photoshoped, even under heavy actinics the zoa's aren't close to being as bright as his pic. Now, I don't have, and could not produce, a photo this far from the actual color but, thanks to zoaid I can use the same missleading photo that he showed me, because the picture is on the site.....Not exactly ethical, 2 wrongs don't make a right, yet zoaid is making it all possable.

After all if we can't talk about the zoa's listed there when we buy/sell/trade as a tool to see eachothers stock, and organize the hobby, and get us all on the same page, then it may as well be some toy, only to be used by some elite(meaning selective in membership) little boys club.

Reef junkie and coral nuts will run it, so none of us can mess it up!!

21Reefman

02/08/2006, 02:52 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6680869#post6680869 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoralNutz
9th page... I am sure it will go there too, cause doc can't just leave well enough alone... I am sure he will keep jabbing and prodding me even after I have pretty much conceded.... I have told you, I don't agree with your "marketing" tactics. I personally think you are NOT a good thing for the hobby.... .

CHILDISH!!!:( You are so full of HOT AIR, and underhanded JABS!!

I think YOU, are BAD FOR THE HOBBY:mad:

CoralNutz

02/08/2006, 06:54 AM

21Reefman..... I love it when trolls sign up to talk some smack... You probably have another account and just signed this one up because you were to affraid to say something with your other account.

Do you think just because people didn't speak up on this thread that it means the MAJORITY doesn't agree that these eBay tactics are wacked? GET REAL.... Maybe since your new you don't know how the forum works. But can you see how it's had 2800+ views and only about 200 comments, that obviously there are more people reading this that have opions too but with not to share. This has been discussed many times on many boards. Also, serveral articles have been written on the subject. It's pretty much agreed upon by the MAJORITY of reefers that these eBay tactics do NOTHING to help the hobby. How would you know anyway since you just joined up today? I love it when TROLLS create new user accounts to talk some smack and flame some stuff up again but have nothing to contribute to the community. Is this your second account you created just for this purpose 21ReefTROLL because you are affraid to post with your real user account. Get a life 21reefTROLL.

Just to let everyone know, I am not naming any names. But one of the docs "Former" "Clients" has PM'ed me thanking me for "enlightening" him about the world of zoas. They had no idea that there was such a large zoanthid community and all these trades went on and you could actually get zoas for such better deals. So I don't care what ANYBODY thinks about what I have to say it's all been worth it even if it's only 1 reefer that has "seen the light" and know nows there is a better way to get flashy zoas other than spending the kids college funds.

As for you 21reefTROLL..... I'll have the mods check to see if your IP logs in with any other accounts, since having multiple accounts is against the sites policies. I am guessing you do....

Pretty funny how you just signed up now, and your first posts were to start a fight with someone....

CoralNutz

02/08/2006, 07:20 AM

OK, just for the record.... I just went through all the pages and counted all the individuals that Agree with what I am saying, and then the inividuals that agree with what doc is saying. There were quite a few posts that were just comments and didn't agree one way or another. Most of these people just had stuff to say about paying high prices for zoas. Which was never the subject of this thread. It was specifically about using zoaid to hype your product... That was the point.

I counted 17 that agreed that using zoaid in that manner was wrong, and 6 individuals that agreed with doc that it's a good tactic and that he didn't do anything wrong.

So, that's 17 that agree with me, 6 that agree with doc. The people that only had comments regarding paying high prices were not counted in either category because that isnt't the issue.

So, hmmm.... 17 agree with me, 6 agree with doc that using zoid in that way is ok. HMMM>>.. I thought we were in the MINORITY 21reefTROLL.... Even if you take the people that were in the nuteral category of only making comments about paying high prices for corals and put them in the list with DOC, although it would get that side up to about 12-14... that's still a minority...

Maybe someone wants to go back and recount, but I think it's pretty clear that the MAJORITY of people that posted in this thread don't agree with the Docs "marketing" practices. (False HYPE is all it really is, that's why I always put "marketing" in quotes, lol)

And if you don't believe these eBay "marketing" are frowned upon by the reefing community as a whole, than you should go do some reading. It doesn't help the hobby. Only helps propagate the myths about these "RARE" corals.

Azurel

02/08/2006, 08:36 AM

I think that takes care of that.....:)

mummra100769

02/08/2006, 09:29 AM

I found the same picture of the (overpriced)zoa's I bought from some guy on zoaid,(the picture that he used to sell them to me.) The picture is SSOOOO photoshoped, even under heavy actinics the zoa's aren't close to being as bright as his pic. Now, I don't have, and could not produce, a photo this far from the actual color but, thanks to zoaid I can use the same missleading photo that he showed me, because the picture is on the site.....Not exactly ethical, 2 wrongs don't make a right, yet zoaid is making it all possable.

he is talking about PHE's

gooch

02/08/2006, 10:22 AM

There is only one way to truly keep something rare in this hobby. That is when you aquire it to keep it to yourself and not talk about it. There are new corals being shipped all the time. The price on them goes up only after hobbyists start talking about them. If you do not think wholesalers read stuff like this your kidding yourself. They find whats hot and slowly flood the market until it is saturated. That is why nothing is truly rare in this hobby. Everything cycles. It use to be efflo's, then zoanthids, then dendro's, then echi's and so on and so on. In two years it will be efflo's or some other coral again. It took me a couple of years to aquire six blasto merletti colonies and about ten wellsi colonies. Now I can get three times that amount in about six minutes. Why? Everyone wants them now and the market is flooded with them. But that will soon pass.

So this is my opinion on people that purchase now corals with intent to profit(I use to be that guy). Only a few will truely profit the rest will be stuck with some high priced corals that they better like or plan to sell off at a loss. The trick is to get the coral before it gets hot. Not by paying $400 for 25 polyps(I have done it myself)

That original blowout awesome coral just to use an example. I got this three years ago. I think I sold three original wild cuttings and about 15 aquacultured frags. I profited nicely from this original $40 colony. And a few have profited even more than me. But soon they will be cheap. This started as a one polyp frag.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/BigG1/zoanthidspaly018.jpg

I looked at zoaid and saw at least if I remember correctly six strains of this coral that are very similar. Including the daytrippers. Here is the same coral above under different lighting.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/BigG1/zoanthidspaly022.jpg

I do not think it is a rare coral. It might be limited in the hobby right now but in a year everyone that wants them will probably have them. The grow wicked fast. Thus bringng the price down.

Now these two colonies are not rare but the top one I have had for about six years from a wild colony. It survived two tank crashes and about ten moves. I know I am the only person that has this coral right now. There is probably hundreds or thousands just like it but not IT. That being said I know it is not in demand and I would be lucky to get $10 a frag for it. So I keep it. The second pic only two known people have it and I have had it over three years and only given three frags away. two died. Again not rare but not something you see everyday nor am I willing to part with it. But again I am not keeping it to profit from it.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/BigG1/mystuff198.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/BigG1/mystuff116.jpg

So if you have something truely unique and you want it to stay that way. You have to keep it to yourself. I know this is off topic but come on Ebay to me is not the place to find rare corals. It is the place to empty your wallet. I see more junk there than anything. Most(not all) of the handlers do not know how to ship and do do more harm than good. I have a friend that purchased a lot of stuff on ebay. She also lost a lot of stuff to. I put an auction up and the guy stiffed me. Great first impression if you ask me.

Gooch

DEEC77

02/08/2006, 10:33 AM

Well put Gooch!! Let's all agree to disagree and move on.

~Dee~

21Reefman

02/08/2006, 11:14 AM

Coral nutz, you are soooo self absorbed! Get a life! Do YOU RUN this place?? You must not have any authority in your life, so you come here and act like Hitler! I have commented in this thread using asg74 or something along that line. it was a friend who let me respond to your crap on his acct. Then I went and got my own. I am new, not stupid! You have such a SLEEZY presence! I will not be replying anymore, enjoy wallowing in your self-righteous, egomaniac mud slick with the other PIGS! Your ramblings are tiresome, your aqllegations are unfouned... Your Ignorance seems to be an endless cycle.

It's people like you who flame someone just to hear your own opinions, People like YOU who ruin all good things in this world!

21Reefman

02/08/2006, 11:17 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6693962#post6693962 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DEEC77
Well put Gooch!! Let's all agree to disagree and move on.

~Dee~

Yes Gooch, Very well put!!

Crusty Old Shellback

02/08/2006, 12:12 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6694282#post6694282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 21Reefman
Coral nutz, you are soooo self absorbed! Get a life! Do YOU RUN this place?? You must not have any authority in your life, so you come here and act like Hitler! I have commented in this thread using asg74 or something along that line. it was a friend who let me respond to your crap on his acct. Then I went and got my own. I am new, not stupid! You have such a SLEEZY presence! I will not be replying anymore, enjoy wallowing in your self-righteous, egomaniac mud slick with the other PIGS! Your ramblings are tiresome, your aqllegations are unfouned... Your Ignorance seems to be an endless cycle.

It's people like you who flame someone just to hear your own opinions, People like YOU who ruin all good things in this world!

:rolleyes:

Apparently someone else as no life.

RevHtree

02/08/2006, 12:25 PM

This Thread Is Now LOCKED!

OK, maybe not, but I had you fooled!

Crusty Old Shellback

02/08/2006, 12:48 PM

LOL.

It needs to be to keep teh trolls out.

I think the point has been well stated. There are a lot of people on RC, not just in this thread, who think that the trends that are going on on Ebay and other places of inflating prices by using key words in both unehtical as well as a detriment to this HOBBY.

Unfortunatly, there will always be those who can't see the thruth for the bump on their nose. It's just the human ego to always want to posses something better than the next guy. So to do this, they have to use the means they have at hand to inflaie whatever it is they have just so it will be better then everybody else's.

As was stated by me and a few others, if any of these corals were truely rare, then only you would have them and that would be because you went into the one spot in the ocean that no one else has ever been and collected it.

Yes they are some nice zoa's, but they are not rare. If you like them and enjoy them, great. If you don't, then pass on them. But don't try and make others want what you have by saying the are the super duper rae latest fad around type of retoric. It's just bad for the HOBBY all the way around. ;)

Doc, I actually feel sorry for you as you have been dupped into that craze. Unfortunatly you have also prepetuated the fad as well. I hope you come away from this learning a few things for the better. Good luck with your HOBBY.

Reef Junkie

02/08/2006, 12:51 PM

21Reefman,
Who are you?

Dude, I've been on this site a long long time. Seen people like you come and go.

Welcome and don't let the door hit you in the...

CoralNutz

02/08/2006, 03:50 PM

RevHtree

02/08/2006, 09:58 PM

Hey can someone please teach me the secret hand shake now?

OOOHHH I get it! It's a handshake where the noob slips the regulars some zoa frags...ahhhh...

Reef Junkie

02/09/2006, 11:11 AM

Heh, Rev. You're a nut.:wildone:

Why would we want doodoo brown frags?:lmao:

JnS

02/09/2006, 11:51 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6694751#post6694751 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy
:rolleyes:

Apparently someone else as no life.

:lol: :bum:

JnS

02/09/2006, 12:00 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6693877#post6693877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gooch

So if you have something truely unique and you want it to stay that way. You have to keep it to yourself. I know this is off topic but come on Ebay to me is not the place to find rare corals. It is the place to empty your wallet. I see more junk there than anything. Most(not all) of the handlers do not know how to ship and do do more harm than good. I have a friend that purchased a lot of stuff on ebay. She also lost a lot of stuff to. I put an auction up and the guy stiffed me. Great first impression if you ask me.

Gooch

I agree about keeping it rare.

I disagree about not finding rare corals on ebay. there is plenty of rare stuff that is put on ebay. just because some dumb person stiffed you is not a good enough reason to complain about ebay. you will find loosers no matter where you sell corals.

I hope you banned that person from bidding on your auctions again!

gooch

02/09/2006, 02:00 PM

I don't like Ebay regardless of whether I sell on it or not. Regardless of whether someone stiffs me or not. I didn't like it before I used it. Reason being is so many people have no clue about what they are doing when it comes to shipping livestock or giving true representation of what the coral looks like. Yes to you and I it is easy. But when 3/4 of the auctions my friend bought came in zip lock bags(leaking), uninsulated or poorly insulated, heat packs right on the bag and cooked corals I have to be leary of purchasing anything that comes from someone that is not a vendor outside of ebay. As with everything I write am stating an opinion based on my experience or the experience of those I know on a personal level. Take what I write with a grain of salt.

I guess I agree you can find an unusual coral on occasion. But Jns you can probably agree with this. After running a shop for many years and hunting down exotic stuff many years before that, that much of what you see on there is not rare. At least to me.

I just think there are better ways to find unusual corals. I know you have your connections as you have incredible stuff. I do not have the connections I use to but I can still find a nice one every now and then.

JnS

02/09/2006, 02:04 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6703485#post6703485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gooch
I don't like Ebay regardless of whether I sell on it or not. Regardless of whether someone stiffs me or not. I didn't like it before I used it. Reason being is so many people have no clue about what they are doing when it comes to shipping livestock or giving true representation of what the coral looks like. Yes to you and I it is easy. But when 3/4 of the auctions my friend bought came in zip lock bags(leaking), uninsulated or poorly insulated, heat packs right on the bag and cooked corals I have to be leary of purchasing anything that comes from someone that is not a vendor outside of ebay. As with everything I write am stating an opinion based on my experience or the experience of those I know on a personal level. Take what I write with a grain of salt.

I guess I agree you can find an unusual coral on occasion. But Jns you can probably agree with this. After running a shop for many years and hunting down exotic stuff many years before that, that much of what you see on there is not rare. At least to me.

I just think there are better ways to find unusual corals. I know you have your connections as you have incredible stuff. I do not have the connections I use to but I can still find a nice one every now and then.

I agree 100% with everything you have said.