Carribian Dive almost a disaster!

[condor13090]

Please be aware while diving away from your local dive buddies as I had a close call last week. The site was the Wreck of the Rhone located in Tortola which is north of St Martin and just east of St. Thomas. There were five divers and one dive leader and one the owner who manned the boat. The weather was perfect, 80 degree's, sunny, a slight breeze and light waves. Visability about 80 feet...and the wreck at 85 ft. Sounds like a dive made in heaven right...
We were told to keep informing the dive leader of our air levels at 1500 psi...and especially at 1000 psi, but the group was so spread out the leader seemed to be either not paying attention or too far away when needed. We were'nt assigned dive buddies which is just plain wrong so you were on your own.
At 1200 psi. I was concerned that it was time to head back so I headed for the dive leader and informed her...she seemed unconcerned. Within 5 min. I was at 700 psi. and quite concerned and she motioned me to follow towards the rope...but I knew I should start my climb to the surface right now as the rope was 100 yards away. So at that time my mind struggled with thought of either surfacing or trusting her judgement...as I knew it would be a close call. I made it to the rope at about 100 lbs. at 85 ft. and was pretty upset...and felt like she should accompany me to the surface but she just swam away. At the 15 ft. stop I was a little relieved but the air ran out within one minute...so I surfaced with no air to use in my b.c. but the boat was right there. A dive buddy would have been just the ticket in this situation. Can you imagine running out of air at 85 ft.? This is unaccepable to me. Then on the next dive this same girl was sleeping on the bow when I returned to the boat so I had no assistance getting into the boat and I was the one who ended up helping the other divers back on board.
What would you have done differently?
By the way the wreck was awesome with large lobsters and lots to see and I would love to do it again with some different rules.

[luminary]

Sounds like there were a few things wrong with both the pre-dive and during dive situations...I'll just list my comments rather than try and paragraph it :)

Pre-Dive issues
- Ensuring that you have a dive buddy is your responsibility, not the boat captains, divemasters, whomever else. Regardless of whether you are "assigned" a buddy, you can still pair up with someone. If no one wants to pair up and you are uncomfortable diving solo, don't dive. Your safety is worth more than the $60 or whatever for the dive. FWIW, I've never dove on a boat that "assigned" me a buddy.

- Everyone has their own standards for air consumption and dive profiling. Most recreational charters and divers go by 1/2 your air out, 1/2 your air back. If you start at the surface at 3000psi, when you hit 1500psi you turn around and head back to the boat. More conservative divers and most technical divers say 1/3 out, 1/3 back and 1/3 for reserve.

During Dive
- At 1500psi you did the right thing to inform the dive leader. Don't expect them to be too concerned, especially if they think you're an experienced diver. Doing an 85 foot wreck dive is not for novice divers and the dive leader probably expects the divers to manage their own air and profile.

- After showing the dive leader your air at 1500psi, you should have just indicated that you were returning to the boat. Especially if you were 100 yards away from the ascent line.

- At 1200psi you should have starting towards the ascent line immediately, regardless of what the dive leader indicated.

- You should never be at 700psi, 100 yards from the ascent line in 85 feet of water. At that point you should have begun your ascen while swimming towards the boat. At this point expect that you will surface far from the boat and will need to rely on your surface indicators for them to find you (you do dive with a safety sausage, signal mirror or something similiar right?)


Remember that your safety during diving is your responsibilty and plan accordingly. The dive leader or divemaster is there to assist, guide and advise. Be confident in your abilities and training and act accordingly. If the leader or DM is unhappy that you chose the safest route contrary to their indication, too bad. Complain with your wallet and don't dive with them again.

Be safe!

[Paul79936]

It might be good to read some reviews and find which dive operations are more oriented toward novice divers. There are plenty that will keep you in a tight group and manage everything for you.

[condor13090]

I felt at the time that we were supposed to do exactly what we were told to do. To just leave and assend on my own would have left them looking for me and that wasn't part of the dive plan. But I did consider it...because you have to look out for yourself first.
Thanks for the sound advise...the psi limits you listed are what I'm accustomed to and should be followed no matter what.

[1SickReefer]

Luminary, That is some of the best dive advise that could be giving, right on!

This sparks a bad memory when i was a teenager (long before cert)on vacation with the family and brothers. This was one of those tourist dives. it was the DM and my 2 brothers. My middle brother was all over the place swimming, using his hands to turn, staying stable etc. well this used alot more air than the rest of us. Well all the sudden we see him freaking out, well 0 PSI is no good, even at 30ft. He had to take the DM second reg. he was freaking out and the DM did a great job at keep him undercontrol, than we all made a controlled accent. Luckly the DM kept us in a tight group and he paired us up before we hit water. this was a beach dive.

I guess my point is air mamagment, like luminary pointed out is critical. You may use more or less than the guy next to you and it is your responsibility to ensure your supply is good.

[luminary]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6640947#post6640947 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by condor13090
I felt at the time that we were supposed to do exactly what we were told to do. To just leave and assend on my own would have left them looking for me and that wasn't part of the dive plan.

Just to make sure I was clear, I was/am NOT advocating doing something contrary to what you were told to do. By and large, divemasters and others that lead a dive know what they are doing and are far more experienced than the majority of people they dive with. My point it probably best summarized in saying that getting hurt isn't a part of the dive plan and if someone elses plan puts you in danger, you need to do what's best to ensure your safety. If someone is leading your dive, you should never leave the group without them knowing unless it is a dire emergency. That's why I suggested at 1500psi simply indicating to them that you were ascending without the group. The leader may not have agreed, but still would have known your intentions and location.

In many ways, these experiences are good. Now you know some of the things that can go wrong. In the future, you might feel it necessary to ask the leader or DM how to act if you get into a similiar situation. There's plenty of time to discuss an upcoming dive on the boat ride our or while suiting up. I've never met a DM that wasn't willing to spend a few minutes discussing any pre-dive concern that I've had.

[stykthyn]

I would raise hell and get that chic fired. Highly unprofessional and begging for a future lawsuit. I crewed a dive boat for several years and if any of the customers complained about me like that the captian would have tossed me overboard and made me swim home.

[condor13090]

The capain was a bit upset when I explained what happened and I don't think much was said to the leader. This person seemed like she could care less about being there...not the kind of person that should hold such a position. Thanks for your comments...I'll be more aware of the situation in the future.

[LSMB]

She may have not done her job properly, but it is your life.

Would you have went to a greater depth if she had told you to do so? Would you have swam in circles at 120ft if she told you?

- You chose to dive without a buddy.

- You chose to stay at depth without sufficient air.

- You chose not to ascend immediately with so little air and no backup (buddy).

Perhaps you are disappointed with the dive leader and operator. However, I think your focus should be what YOU would do differently in such a situation (and perhaps get a bit more experience before making deep dives).

It is your life. Not the dive master's.

I'm glad you were not injured or killed.

-Len

[reelfreak]

Monitoring your air consumption is ultimately your responsibility. Next time you feel like you need to dive w/ a buddy, don't leave the boat w/o one.

I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience, but I am sure in the end you will have learned some good lessons about what you need to do for next time.

An Al80 w/ 3000psi will give me about 40 minutes BT at 85'.....I don't begin my ascent till 700psi or less and still get back to the boat w/ about 400-500psi w/ a 3 min safety stop. But that is because I know my personal consumption and my limits...... I AM NOT TELLING ANYONE ELSE TO DO THIS... Just stating these are my personal limits and uses...

Next time get a buddy and "plan your dive and dive your plan" and you should avoid this happening again... Just my 2 psi

[billsreef]

Just a little tip for future reference. In nice clear waters, you can easily go up 20 feet, still be in sight of the DM and the rest of the group, and reduce your rate of air consumption ;)

[condor13090]

When I did follow her to the rope I did stay 30 ft. higher to help conserve air and to reduce the chance of hurting my self if I needed to suddenly go to the surface if the air ran out.
I guess my point is that I don't want to be in the position between doing what they expect me to do and doing what I've been trained to do because thats what gets you in trouble. I'll admit this was the deepest I've gone...and 65 ft. was my deepest before. The main concern in going to the deeper dive is the air is used up much faster and I must really watch this...better to have air left over than to looking for air thats not there...

[reelfreak]

It will really surprise you how much faster you will consume your tank w/ just a 30' or so difference.

In 85' I get about 40min on an AL 80....same tank at 120' and 25-30mins is it. I spearfish so my rate is much higher because of activity levels. If I were a photograper or just sight seeing, I'd probably be in deco...

Point is, realize as you go deeper your consumption rate will go up considerably..

Glad to hear that you know your training and instinct will dictate your dive, not another person who apparently had no concern for you....

[ri]

I would raise hell and get that chic fired.

Although I don't agree with what the DM initially did, I'm not sure getting "that chick fired" would have done anything to the situation that had just transpired.


ri

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6673653#post6673653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reelfreak
If I were a photograper or just sight seeing, I'd probably be in deco...


Yup, I often find it's more important to watch my bottom time as a result :D Though it is important to watch both equally ;)

The big thing, is to learn from your experiences and work on being a better diver. Best thing to do is get bottom time logged, and learn and work on self reliance. Don't rely on your buddy, especially when travelling and being hooked up with someone you've never dived with before. Those situations can often be worse than solo diving, as often you find yourself solo diving but thinking you have a buddy to rely on. In other words, take full responsibilty for yourself when diving and don't expect anyone else to take responsibilty for you once you've passed your certification ;)

[RicksReefs]

In other words, take full responsibilty for yourself when diving and don't expect anyone else to take responsibilty for you once you've passed your certification

best advise right there.. ;)
every dive I do is a solo dive plan, whether there's a buddy there or not. plan as if your alone with no one else to depend on but you and you'll have what you need to handle the situation.

a divers best friend is a cool head and never letting panic set in.

[condor13090]

I've been an active Hang Glider pilot for over 28 years, we are self regulated and for the most part it is a Very safe sport mostly because we watch out for our selves and each other. If we see something wrong or someone taking a risk that may indanger someone or themselves or risk us losing our flying site it's ok to speak up as an individual or as a group....it's all tha same. Because of our policies and safety procedures we mayonly lose 5-7 pilots a year out of 25,000 who enjoy this great sport. The few who we do lose is usually due to pilot error or pushing their abilities past their sill level.
I believe diving can and probaly is just as safe if you take resonsibility for your self. There is no margin for close calls unless you can suddenly grow gills!

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6677468#post6677468 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by condor13090
The few who we do lose is usually due to pilot error or pushing their abilities past their sill level.

Generally the same with diving. All too often someone thinks, oh just swimming into the mouth of that cavern is OK, or just a little bit deeper is OK, only to run into a situation that your not trained for.

[Scuba_Dave]

Plan your dive, Dive your plan

I am responsible for my own life, no DM or guide will contradict the training I have. You were headed towards a no-air situation, you should signal that you are low on air & heading up.

Are you certified as an advance diver? PADI...or?

Diving in Cozumel between coral heads I naturally rise 15-20' above the crowd to swim between reefs. Normal dive times are between 60-90 minutes for me on an alum 80.
WE dove the Devils Throat & still were close to a safe 60 minute dive

I dive with my wife, since at home we do shore dives a dive plan isn't really needed. We start shallow, we finish shallow. Max depth may be 50' - rarely tho. When we hit 1000, we head in
So when we were in Curacao we headed out on a shore dive that I had already dove multiple times solo.
One side drops off to 100', then down to 400', the other side is a plateau at 15-25'. My plan was to dive the deep end, then swing back and deco in the shallow water. I should of told my wife this, she started to freak a little when we were down to 700 psi & we were just turning.
Had to "explain" underwater - pointing to my gauge...not fun
Stressed her out for no reason

DO you dive a computer? My computer will automatically calculate simple deco. I was stuck for 15 minutes in Cozumel until my computer cleared. I have studied Planned Deco dives, but never attempted one (yet).
But the training & studying alone makes me more comfortable underwater.

Take more training, and make sure you are comfortable with any & every dive

[luminary]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6713550#post6713550 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scuba_Dave
I dive with my wife, since at home we do shore dives a dive plan isn't really needed.

While I agree with everything else you said, I have to strongly disagree with this. IMO, shore diving requires you to be even more focused on diving your plan. The actual dive profiles themselves may be safer, but that's about the only thing about it that is, especially for novice/inexperienced divers. If something goes wrong, you're completely on your own. No chance of emergency evac to a medical center. Heck, doubtfull that there's even O2 available, and if there is, it's on the shore possible 100s of yards away. And that's just for emergencies. In many locations, it's extremely easy to lose track of which direction shore is in. A diver low on air surfacing twice as far from shore as expected with even a moderate current is in a serious situation.

I've done hundreds of shore dives off the coast of Palm Beach, an area known for it's drift diving due to strong currents. I can assure you that they required much more planning and attention than boat dives.

I don't want to sidetrack condors thread and would be more than happy to discuss in a dedicated thread. I just don't want the average recreational diver that has little or no experience with shore dives to read this thread and believe that they require any less diligence when planning or diving them.

[condor13090]

I was certified with SSI last spring so I'm no expert thats for sure but that doesn't mean I take chances. I don't have a dive computer so I use guages. I did buy all new equipment and it was a hassel bringing it all the way down there just for 2 dives, as I've heard you can never trust their equipment...even though this place had top of the line stuff.
They did laugh a bit because I had a 1/2 mil and a 5 mil suit while they dove with half suits...in 76 degree water. Trust me they were shivering while I never felt the water!

[cmhollis]

Condor,

Back in November 04 we did a Sailboat charter out of Tortola. I did a two-dive day on the Rhone with Sail Carribean Divers (SCD). Morning was the deeper dive on the bow (85 - 90'), then the boat headed back to the dock to pick up the resort course folks, and we went back and dove the stern (35' or so - don't have my log handy) after a SIT of 2 hours or so.

Anyhow, I found SCD to be a first-class outfit, and the DM's first priority was diver safety. On the boat ride to the dive site, the DM briefed everyone on the dive plan, psi's to make notification, actions to take when these pressures are met, etc. I had no qualms diving with them, and wouldn't hesitate to do so again in the future. I hope that SCD wasn't the company you dove with.

Anyhow, I am glad to hear that you weren't injured, and sorry that such an awesome dive was ruined by an uncaring (incompetent?) DM.

Mike

[KaBoOm]

Just a quick note because this thread is getting old now, but everyone should realize that the Divemaster on a Divemaster led dive is only responsible for giving you the guidelines for the dive.

It's nice to know that the people you are leading are all OK on Air, but it's not practical fo a DM to keep track of everyone. You are certified divers and ultimately responsible for your own safety.

When you got to the point that your air supply was making you uncomfortable, that should have been the point where you got the DM's attention and returned to the line. Even if you have to go up the line Solo, that's better than running out of air at depth. You were already Solo diving at this point anyway.

Bottom line here, dive more. Plan YOUR dive and Dive YOUR plan. Taking an advanced course with a Deep Water component would also be a great idea!

I hope this doesn't put you off diving.

[kysmith]

I would have brought a buddy up to the 15 ft. line and breathed on their spare regulator for a few minutes before going to the surface. Going 85 ft is no joke and you don't want to end up with the bends. Next time get a buddy.

[gussy]

700psi at the ropes in 85ft is fine. I was wondering what were you doing to go down from 1200psi to 700psi in 100 years...going to fast?

The procedure for a deep ascent is to go to the ropes and start going up from there. So at 1200psi I would go to the ropes too. Also a lot of crews will also tie another tank close to the ropes in case you need air.

[2turtles]

I have dove on the Rhone. Really, not much to see, pretty much all gone. I would never dive with you, (just by your story). Until you get more experience, you should not go below 30 feet. A dive master just leads the dive, YOU are to manage you own dive based on YOUR conditions. When diving depend on yourself, your experience and your buddy. Stop blaming others for your lack of experience.