I have to of forgotten something (sump plumbing)........help please!!!

[Cutiewitbooty]

Ok well i thought i bought everything i need today to get it plumbed to the main tank, but it's not working like it's suppost to and i think i'm going to cry :mixed: lol. I'll try and discribe what i have and whats wrong, hopefully some one can help, because it's going to flood everything :p

I have 2 return U tubes hanging on the back of the tank each with a hose going down attached to a T thing which turns into one hose that connests to my pump. (folling me so far?) The overflow (Utube kind) just has a huge tube that runs down to the sump. Well first off i tried to get all the air out of the U tube for the overflow, which worked untill it sucked all the water from the overflow part thats in the tank, then lost the suction. Am i suppost to start the pump and the overflow somehow at the same exact time....? Well after getting frustrated with that i went and turned on the pump just to make sure it would work and it did, then when i turned off the pump, the water started flowing backwards down the return line into the sump, guess because of the gravity, which almost flooded my place :eek1: No i wcould probally get it going, but if the power turns off i am really screwed, so what am i doing wrong????????? :( Please help!!!!!

[nemofish2217]

what is happenning is the water is "back-siphoning" from your tank to your sump due to gravity and suction....what you need to do is make some way for air to get into your return line when you turn the pump off...i did this by drilling a very small hole 3/16" or so into the return line right at water level....then when the pump goes off, the line catces air, and the siphon stops....this is just how i did it, and it works great for me....

[Cutiewitbooty]

ok 1 probalem solved, thanks!!! Anyone got any comments on ther other? Do i have to start the overflow and the pump at the exact same time?

[nemofish2217]

do you have an overflow box? if so, then once the u-tube is primed, it should retain its suction, therefore, when you start the pump, the overflow should start automatically....

[jacmyoung]

Your sump must be big enough to hold all the water that will be dumped into it during a power outage.

Your two u tubes that return water into the main tank must be close enough to the water surface in order to break the siphon before flooding the sump during the power outage.

If your two u tube returns must be deep into the water surface, then drill a hole under each u tube right above the water surface, the hole must be large enough to break the siphon when water flows backwards. During normal operation the hole will leak water into the main tank (which can cause some noise if not set right) but the main return flow still goes through the end of each u tube.

[jacmyoung]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6666696#post6666696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cutiewitbooty
ok 1 probalem solved, thanks!!! Anyone got any comments on ther other? Do i have to start the overflow and the pump at the exact same time?

If you use a hang-on overflow box with a inverted U tube, when pump is on, the water in the tank flows into the tank side of the overflow box, cause the water level in the tank-side box to rise above the water level at the back side of the overflow box which induces siphon through the U tube. When the pump stops, water levels on both sides of the overflow box soon equalizes and the drain flow stops. There is no need to "start" the overflow box, once the U tube is primed it should never have air in it and each end of the U tube should be submerged at all time whether the pump is on or off.

[Cutiewitbooty]

ok with the U tube for the overflow, it does keep it's suction untill it sucks the water level (in tha tank side of the overflow) down then the end of the U tube is exposed and looses it's suction. I actually got it running a few min, but some how the overflow lost it's suction and overflowed my display, ahhhh i don't want to do this anymore. I think my pump is the problem, it's 380 GPH, but when the pump is on the water is barley comming out od the return tubes into the tank, so maybe the pump isn't working right and is going to slow for the overflow.

[jacmyoung]

There should be a baffle in the back side of the overflow box to keep that end of the U tube submerged at all time. In fact both ends of the U tube should be lower than the top of the baffle so they will never be exposed and sucking air.

[Cutiewitbooty]

yeah the back one does, but the part in the tank will suck the water down so it will suck in air. I'm pretty sure it's the return pump not putting water into the tank fast enough, even though it's suppost to. I'm just going to have to return the pump tomarrow and see what happes. The water comes out so slow from the nosles that you can barley even feel it, so it can't keep the water level up in the tank, making the overflow fair which eventually overflows my tank. thats what i'm thinking anyways here is a pic of the overflow just for kicks

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Amber1983/DSCF2156.jpg

[jacmyoung]

That should not happen regardless how big is the flow in. Once the water level in the intake box goes down to the same as the level in the backside chamber, the siphon flow stops and the U tube should be submerged on both ends at that point so no flow through the U tube and no air gets in it.

Make sure the very end of the U tube on the intake side is quite a bit lower than the water level in the backside chamber.

[nemofish2217]

i just thought of this...you might have the u-tube backwards....usually one end is slightly longer than the other...if you have them switched then there might be your problem....not sure, but its worth a shot....

[integlikewhoa]

Yup i bet thats it nemo. Nice thinkin.

[mikenpam]

Amber - this is a bit off track but when you lived here in Fairbanks did you happen to know Andy Wright? He is my youngest son, age 22, and had a friend named Amber at one time. I can't really help much with the overflow issue as I have zero experience but I wish you the best of luck!

[Cutiewitbooty]

hmmmm i don't think i have it backwards............the shorter end goes into the tank side right? hmmmmm,well i just tried turning it around and the other side is too short to reach into the water so i don't think that would work. With the shorter end in the tank both of the ends are in the water. I'm going to return the pump today though, i guess its only pumping like 50GPH when it should be doing 380GPH, 270GPH at 5 feet to it's got to be one of them probelms anyways i just have to see why the overflow keeps sucking water down when the pump is off. There is a baffle so by my logic it shouldn't do it............i think i'm going to scream lol, Anyone in the Cape Coral area good at this stuff lol

Oh mikenpam i'm not sure if i knew your son or not, i did know alot of people up there, but if i did know him it was more of an aquantice probally. Most everyone i knew though were older than me.

[jacmyoung]

I went back reread your first post, if I understand you right, you never had your overflow working as draining water down to the sump did you? It is hard to tell from your description but sounded as if you tried to remove air from the U tube while pump was not on, so the tube ended up sucking out all the water from the intake box.

In that case yes you need enough water in the main tank and the intake box before trying to remove air from the U tube to generate the siphon, once your U tube is full of water and both ends still submerged, your U tube is primed and in theory you do not need to touch that part anymore.

Though some reported air getting into the U tube from time to time so they in fact add an airline tube on top of the U tube and connect it to a small pump to constantly sucking out a bit of water and any air that may get in the U tube. But the sucking in the airline tube must be small enough so not to suck the water all out of the U tube when the pump is not running.

Besides making sure when the pump it out, your sump does not flood, you should also test to be sure when the pump is running and you cut off the drain, that your main tank does not flood, meaning in the event of a clogged drain, the pump in the sump will run dry before the main tank floods.

[Cutiewitbooty]

How would i get it so that if the overflow gets clogged that the pump wont overflow the main tank? I don't think i like the whole sump thing lol

I got the sump running now though. The main problem is that the way i had the return lines going the pump wasen't powerful enough to do it, so it wasan't pumping enough water into the tank. Here is what i had

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Amber1983/DSCF2157.jpg
attached to 2 of these
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Amber1983/DSCF2158.jpg

sooo I changed it to work with only one of them, this is what i have now and it's actually blowing alot of water into the the display now.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Amber1983/DSCF2162.jpg

Now I just have to stage a fake poweroutage....:eek2: I'm scared, i hope the overflow doesn't suck it's self dry......:(

[jdieck]

OK the best reliable U tube overflow uses a small vaccum pump connected to a small tap on top of the U tube. The pump to use to do that is an aqualifter pump. It will keep sucking air from the tube, when all the air is gone it will just suck water which is discharged to the drain side of the box. Take a look at the design of this overflow sold by Dr. Foster & Smith

In this case it is not a U tube but a U path (channel) but works the same.

http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20051020151904/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_rd_790065_24644D.jpg

[integlikewhoa]

I have always hate those things. BUt i guess if you got to use them then go ahead. I like the internal overflow idea so much better. I feel safer.

[tkeracer619]

Im think a simple overflow without any type of fitting on it would be most reliable. I dont see how U tubes once primed would let go of the syphon unless there was a small hole. The reason for hers not working is most likley b/c there was not enough water in the display tank. Water flowing through the tubes is enough to keep little bubbles from accumulating. Fluid transmition and physics prove why this method is reliable.

Amber if you still are having problems could you get another angle of your overflow box. preferable from a side angle.

Good luck

[Cutiewitbooty]

yeah that one does look cool. I did the fake power outage and it kept it's suction :D I'm happy lol I'm going to upgrade my tank pretty soon though and it's going to be "reef ready" or i wont get it at all lol, this is all too much stress for me, i'm not into the whole plumbing thing :D Now for the stupid micro bubbles lol I know why thas happening though.